June 4, 2024 • 44 mins
What new best friend is just waiting to inspire you? Join us as we chat with Meg Hunter-Kilmer, affectionately known as the "hobo for Christ" and the "saint ninja." Meg shares her transformative journey from living out of her car for 12 years to settling in South Bend, and how she went from uninterested in saints to being a passionate storyteller of their incredible lives. Discover how a single book changed her entire outlook, connecting the dots between the stories of saints and their personalities and real lives. With her extraordinary knack for storytelling, Meg introduces us to lesser-known saints whose stories can profoundly influence our own relationship with Jesus.
We also dive into the unique narrative of the Catholic Church in South Korea, a church born out of self-evangelization by a group of courageous teenagers. Want to be inspired by this in person? Meg invites everyone to join her on a pilgrimage to South Korea, visiting significant yet often overlooked holy sites and learning about the grassroots fervor and martyrdom of early Korean Christians.
More about Meg
Website
Books:
Saints Around the World
Pray for Us: 75 Saints Who Sinned, Suffered, and Struggled on Their Way to Holiness
South Korea Pilgrimage
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joan (00:01):
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're navigating
the pilgrimage of life.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
Welcome back to In Via.
In today's episode we are goingto look at saints who have gone
on pilgrimage, and who betterto talk about that than saint
expert Meg Hunter Kilmer?
(00:42):
Meg is a Catholic speaker,author and campus minister who
travels the world telling peopleabout the fierce and tender
love of God and helps peoplediscover new friendships in the
saints.
I think you're going to loveour conversation, meg.
Thanks for joining us today onthe podcast, joan I am so glad
to be here.
(01:03):
I would love for you to tell ourlisteners a little bit more
about yourself.
I usually restrict my guests tothree sentences about
themselves.
No one really listens to that,so why don't you just tell us
about yourself?
Perfect.
Meg (01:14):
So my name is Meg Hunter Kilmer.
I am an author and a speakerand a campus minister and a
missionary.
I just spent 12 years livingout of a car, but now I have a
house, so exciting.
And all of the issues that comewith having a house like that.
My whole basement needswaterproof two months after I
bought the house.
But living here in South Bend,working in campus ministry at
(01:37):
Notre Dame, writing some books,giving all the talks, keeping
myself very busy.
Joan (01:41):
Nice, nice.
So how did you I think a lot ofpeople know you as the saint
expert right, would you have you?
Do you have a moniker?
Um, you had a moniker when youwere living in the car.
Meg (01:53):
People called me the hobo for Christ.
People sometimes use saintninja.
Joan (01:57):
That's probably my fault.
Meg (01:58):
I probably did that to myself but then I feel like, is
that insensitive to?
Joan (02:01):
like but ninjas aren't real, so maybe it's okay I don't
know, Just like.
Meg (02:06):
It's one of those words where you're like maybe this is
not.
Should I use that?
Yeah, I don't know.
Joan (02:10):
Well, you definitely, I think in most people who know
you in our minds are the saintexpert, like if we want to know
about a saint.
I think what I love most aboutyou is that you know all the
saints that no one knows,because I mean, there's a lot of
us that could spout off.
You know the usuals, but I lovecoming to you and to your books
for the saints that no oneknows.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow you got into that, like
(02:31):
what attracted you to that?
Meg (02:32):
You know I really was not interested in the saints for a
long time, partially because theway that people talked about
them it kind of sounded likeinstead of Jesus, and I have
absolutely no interest inanything instead of Jesus, like
anything at all instead of Jesus.
And people were like, well, youknow, when I can't go to Jesus,
rose of Lima she hooks me up andI'm like I don't, I don't love
(02:55):
that.
But I think also the way that Iheard the stories told they
weren't stories, they were justlists of random facts and they
weren't about Jesus and how youmake Francis of Assisi not about
Jesus.
I mean, this man was known asthe most Christlike man since
Christ and people made him intolike a bunny snuggler and I was
(03:16):
like no, I'm not interested.
I'm not interested in thesesweet, saccharine women gazing
heavenward.
Butter wouldn't melt in theirmouth Like I'm a lot, joan.
Joan (03:24):
I'm a lot.
Meg (03:28):
And I'm good with that, I'm real comfortable with who I am.
But when I was first coming toknow Jesus and it looked like
holiness always involved, quiet,meek, placid, gazing heavenward
in a stained glass window whilebeing skinny I mean it's just
like it wasn't.
It wasn't my jam, um.
And I heard the story of Teresaof Avila and I was like, okay,
like nobody can ruin Teresa's ofAvila's saltiness Like.
(03:53):
I haven't even heard people tryto make her sound shy and
retiring so I was like, okay,one time there was a salty
female saying we are going fortwo.
Right, but I kind of wrote thewhole category off as being
irrelevant.
Joan (04:08):
Yeah.
Meg (04:09):
And then I read a book called Modern Saints by Ann Ball
and she actually tells thestories and they're interesting
and they're compelling andthey're about Jesus, and I was
like, oh, this is what I wasmade to do, because I have
always been a storyteller.
Yeah, and I have like a weird,almost robotic memory for
(04:32):
stories.
Joan (04:32):
Yeah.
Meg (04:33):
Like other facts, I got nothing.
I am thrilled every time I goto a zoo because I learned for
the first time again thesethings that I have learned every
time I've ever been to a zoo.
Like my brain just does notretain these things that I have
learned every time I've everbeen to a zoo Like my brain just
does not retain but stories.
I've always hung on to like asteel trap and and realizing
that this is a way that I cantell the story of Jesus.
(04:53):
Yeah, Right Like in in manyplaces in this country and with
many people it feels invasive tojust be like excuse me, can I
talk to you about?
Jesus Right, so you got to finda side door but, everybody
wants to hear a story of ahermit who spent every night
with a different prostitute andthen got canonized.
And you're like, I'm sorry,like what, what?
Joan (05:15):
now that one St.
Meg (05:16):
Vitalis of Gaza.
And so when you, when you tella story and then you make it
about Jesus, because they areabout Jesus and that's the only
point of their lives well thenyou can preach the gospel to
people who maybe didn't want tohear it, but you can also preach
the gospel in a way that speaksvery specifically to the wounds
in people's lives and make themfeel ineligible for the love of
(05:37):
Jesus.
Joan (05:38):
Right.
Meg (05:39):
You know, I can say God loves you and your addiction.
And you're like, yeah, you haveto say that you've got the
bumper sticker.
Like I get it.
Jesus loves you.
But it feels like people arejust trying too hard to make you
feel welcome.
And then I'm like no, like StMark G Tianxiang was an opium
addict for 30 years, never wentto confession about it and died
and he is a canonized saint.
(06:00):
Like this is what addictionlooks like with a halo on it,
right.
This is what divorce andremarriage looks like with a
halo on it.
This is what being a scientistlooks like with a halo on it.
This is what a limb differencelooks like with a halo on it,
right.
Like all of these differentthings that people feel like
they don't belong in the churchfor whatever reason, you know
sometimes.
Sometimes it's something thatcauses great suffering and
(06:21):
sometimes it's a great love oftheirs where they're like oh,
you can't be a musician and asaint and I'm like, oh, sit down
, like I can do way better thanCecilia.
And so just recognizing thepower this could have for
evangelism and the way thatpeople just need to feel seen.
And so I have spent the lasteight or nine years really
(06:42):
digging into all of thesestories so that when people talk
about the particularcircumstances of their lives I
can say, hey, like do you, doyou want a saint friend who had
that same experience, who hadthat same mental health
diagnosis, who had that samehobby, who had that same family
situation and the way that itjust like people sit up
(07:04):
straighter situation.
And the way that it, just likepeople sit up straighter.
You know, because it's a.
It's a, an official cry fromthe Lord you are wanted and you
belong.
Joan (07:18):
And I, I'm seen, I, they, they feel seen, because I can be
a part of this body of Christ,because others have gone before
me with what I thought was ahurdle and what actually could
be my cross and my, my way toheaven.
Meg (07:27):
Exactly.
Joan (07:28):
It's wonderful.
Um, so you are going to SouthKorea, Very excited about that.
Um, you can talk a little bitabout South Korea, but what?
Um, you know you're going onpilgrimage and this podcast is
all about pilgrimage.
So I'd also love to say, like,why pilgrimage?
Like, why are you leading thispilgrimage to South Korea?
What, what in your heartthought, so let's go to South
(07:49):
Korea on pilgrimage?
Meg (07:50):
You know, john Paul, uh, who is the head of Verso,
reached out to me and was like,would you like to take a
pilgrimage?
And I was like, oh my gosh,john Paul, south Korea.
And he was like, really, so Imean he was like all about it,
but you know everybody wants togo to Italy, everybody wants to
go to the Holy land, everybodywants to go to Lords and not to
be an obnoxious hipster whodoesn't do things everybody else
(08:10):
does but piano man.
The church in South Korea isjust amazing.
It's the only country ever tohave evangelized itself.
Everyone else had missionaries.
South Korea had some teenageboys who found a book about
Jesus, studied it for 10 yearsand then were like let's do it,
and it smuggled one of theirbuddies out of the country to
get baptized.
He got baptized in China, gotsmuggled back in, baptized his
(08:33):
friends.
They baptized 1,000 people insix months, just some like
20-something-year-old layman whohad been baptized for 15
minutes.
The church in Korea the first50 years there was one priest
for six years total and he wasan undocumented immigrant from
China.
Everything else was organic,grassroots, lay-led, and to
(08:55):
encounter a church that began inthe modern era without any ties
to imperialism or colonialismwhere you don't have to sift
through those roots and say,okay, well, what part of this
was forced on us or what part ofthis was their like societal
pressure.
It's like like Korea heard thename of Jesus and was like,
let's do this and there weretons and tons of martyrdoms, on
(09:19):
the order of 10,000.
And that has left us with 103saints, 124 blessed, 252
servants of God and a venerable.
The numbers are unreal and thechurch in Korea has been so good
about collecting the stories ofthese martyrs with an
individuality to them, a lot ofthese big lumps of martyrdom.
(09:40):
We maybe know their names andperhaps the way they died.
But the Korean bishops havemade sure that we know their
occupation and their familyhistory and often even their
personality, which it is reallyunusual in groups of martyrs for
personality to come through.
Joan (09:57):
And that is so much of what I love is getting to know
the personalities of the saints.
Meg (10:01):
So I went to South Korea, kind of by accident, in 2017.
I wanted to go to Australia andthen my friend was like while
you're on that side of theplanet, you should come to Korea
, which is sort of like saying,while you're in Chile, you
should come to Seattle.
But it's actually not like that, because the flights are much
cheaper.
So then I started planningaround Korea.
I didn't end up going toAustralia.
(10:22):
I went to see a friend in SouthKorea, did a bunch of speaking
on military installations, but Ididn't know the South Korean
saints at all.
I was like brand new and lovingthe saints, um, and so I hadn't
done any research into them.
And then I got there and thereare just saints everywhere and
the churches are packed.
Like you go to a 10 AM Tuesdaymass and there's a hundred
(10:42):
people there, right.
And like I discovered the storyof the founding of the church at
the site of the foundationwhich is like way out in the
country we're going to be goingthere, it's so cool, and I, we
pulled up and the guy in theguardhouse, his jaw dropped and
he started like babbling andexcitingly, excitedly, like
(11:03):
rifling through this box ofpapers and then he pulled out an
english language book tellingthe story.
That was like brittle with ageand had a coffee stain on it and
you could tell he was like ohmy gosh, oh my gosh, white
people I bet they speak englishlike I don't I don't know that
an american had come to thislocation.
(11:23):
Yeah, Right.
At least an American who didn'tspeak Korean right.
Like a white American, maybe Idon't know, I don't know what it
was about me, but he was likeoh, this girl, maybe it was just
the Holy Spirit was like yeahlet her know about this.
But so I'm just like at this,this pilgrimage that nobody goes
to cause it's in the middle ofnowhere, it was the smallest
mass I went to the whole time.
(11:43):
I was there with like six.
Everything else was no joke,joan, 100 people.
And I'm reading this bookletand I'm like, oh man, like I
knew this place was cool withall these saints.
But to hear the way the HolySpirit just did this like wild
and incredible thing in thiscommunity, and I mean it was
persecutions nonstop for 80years to the tune of thousands
(12:09):
and thousands of martyrs andthey just wouldn't quit.
Right, and the church today is11% of South Koreans.
Protestants are 17%, right, soit's, I mean, it's a good, a
huge chunk, particularly for aneast asian country that's not
the philippines, and that, yeah,it's just, it's beautiful and
(12:29):
the faith is alive and thesesaints are so real and so
tangible and and I reallyencountered that sort of
accidentally- by going on thispilgrimage.
I don't even know how we foundthis location, because it's like
impossible.
I mean, when we were planningthe the pilgrimage, I was like,
okay, this is how I spelled itwhen I was there, but I don't
know what to Google.
(12:50):
Like I'm Googling and nothing'scoming up and it's hard to find
them.
Google maps, and we figured itout, but I don't know how the
woman who was hosting me, whowas also just like some American
woman who doesn't speak Korean,I don't know how she found it,
but I like brought my friendback there and and now I'm
bringing this whole group withus, because there's something
about being in that spot, right?
So this is like it's wilderness.
(13:11):
They have cleared a space wherethey're going to build a
massive church that they expectto take a hundred years, which
is wild in the 21st century.
I didn't know that was still athing that happened, other than,
I guess, the Sagrada Familia,but most pilgrim sites that you
go to it's like.
Here is a pilgrim sitesurrounded by a bunch of stuff
(13:32):
that's been built up since thatsaint was there.
Right, it's you know you go toLords and it's Catholic
Disneyland with Sagrada, or yougo.
Maybe you want to visit thetomb of St John Neumann in
Philadelphia and like nothingaround that cathedral is
anything that he would have seen.
Joan (13:51):
Right.
Takes a lot of imagination.
Meg (13:53):
Exactly In America we don't have as many pilgrimage sites
as you do, Obviously, allthroughout Europe.
But you know, South Korea is avery small country to have that
many saints that is, 10 times asmany canonized saints as we
have.
But you know, when we havethese pilgrim saints here, for
the most part it's like justthis spot, and then you step
(14:16):
outside and it doesn't feel thatway.
And it's the same way in SouthKorea, where most of the pilgrim
sites, like in the church,you're somewhere sacred and then
you step outside and you'reback to where you were but
Chongjinam, it's 1795.
Wow, you know, because thereisn't like you drive up to the
parking lot and then there areno longer roads.
(14:38):
There are there are trails thatyou climb up and then you get
to the cemetery and, like, thegravestones are obviously not
well, I guess the gravestonesare not 1795.
The gravestones are obviouslynot well.
I guess the gravestones are not1795.
The gravestones are much newer.
The bodies were recovered um Ithink in the eighties and they
did DNA testing to currentlyliving descendants of the
founders of the church toidentify the remains, which is
(14:59):
really cool, but like you'rewalking through the woods,
hiking up this mountain to getto this spot, and you're like
this is how they would come backfrom going home to visit their
families.
Right Like like some of thesetrees.
I don't know how old trees getin South Korea Maybe.
Maybe they're not 250 years old, but like I mean it's the same
(15:21):
kind of tree it's the same kindof feel.
It's the same kind of silenceand so just feeling like you are
really walking in theirfootsteps.
There's something very specialabout that and it does feel like
a step back outside of time towalk with Servant of God John
Baptist Ebyuk and Servant of GodPeter and to feel the
(15:46):
excitement that they felt atbeing able to bring the gospel
to people who had neverencountered Jesus before.
It's just, it's incredible.
I hate hiking Joan more thanreally almost anything in the
world, like sin first and thenbananas and then hiking, and I
like I go to Alaska and I do notbring appropriate shoes so that
(16:09):
people can't make me hike, likeI hate hiking.
I have to stay home and I wentback a second time to hike this
mountain again.
Joan (16:17):
Wow.
Meg (16:18):
Because the feeling of encounter was so tremendous.
Joan (16:24):
Yeah, it's hard to explain to someone who's like, well,
I'll just read a book abouttheir life and it's a great
story, meg thanks.
But to be there it's almostlike just try it right, just try
.
And I think sometimes it's hardto explain to someone
pilgrimage when they're like,well, I can pray here, I can
pray in my own church, of courseyou can, that's great.
But there's something aboutencountering Christ and
(16:46):
encountering these people in theplace that is kind of
indescribable until youexperience it.
Meg (16:53):
Exactly.
And pilgrimage is possiblelocally, right.
You don't have to be going to aplace where a saint lived.
Although if you are in the USand you are looking for a local
place where a saint or servantof God or venerable lived, I can
hook you up, because if you'rein the Southwest you have to
drive a little farther, but inmuch of the country you're
within five or six hours ofsomeplace like this.
(17:16):
But you can also make apilgrimage to your cathedral,
and maybe your cathedral isnothing to write home about, but
it is your connection to theuniversal church, it is your
connection to your bishop asyour spiritual father who ties
you back to the apostles whowalked with Jesus.
Like it doesn't have to be thismajor financial layout for you
(17:38):
to go on pilgrimage, right, youcan find a way to make local
pilgrimages to sites that aremeaningful, even if a saint
never walked that images, tosites that are meaningful even
if a saint never walked at.
But if you have the ability togo and be where the saints
walked, to visit their homes, tovisit their bodies right, to
hear the wind move through thetrees that they walked under, I
(18:00):
mean there's something therewhere you're like, let's go.
Like I visited Carlo Acutiswhen he was still in the
cemetery in Rome.
Like I knew him when, uh, hewas a servant of God, wasn't
even venerable yet Like, and Ihunted him down in this cemetery
and I have seen so many saintsright Like.
I have been on pilgrimage somany places, sometimes on
purpose, sometimes by accident,um, but there was something
(18:22):
about standing in front of hisbody in the cemetery and being
like, like, looking at histombstone that said 1991.
Yeah, and thinking what have Ibeen doing with my life?
And my priest friend who waswith me was like well, not dying
.
So that's, that's the firstthing holding you back from
canonization.
Meg in case you were justtrying to figure that out.
(18:43):
Right, but there's somethingabout being there and the way
that it just invites you toreexamine your life and to say
can I belong more to Jesus thanI have?
Can I be his in a more real, amore immediate, a more powerful
way?
Joan (19:02):
Yeah, and maybe there are no saints buried in your local
cathedral, but maybe a saint hasgone.
like there's so many people inheaven, we don't know their
names and so you're also walkingwith the saints wherever you're
walking, because a saint hasgone there before you, whether
you know their name or not.
And I love the idea of Carlobecause we can make pilgrimages
(19:23):
to Carlo.
But we can make pilgrimageswith Carlo, um, you know, I
think, just being in theseplaces where we have photographs
of Carlo being right, um, wewent to Santarem outside Fatima,
the Eucharistic miracle site,and he has a, you know, a.
There's a picture of Carlostanding outside the church.
He got his picture taken, so weall took pictures in the same
spot and it's like we're notjust walking to these places,
(19:46):
but we're also walking withthese saints and we're walking.
We're not the first ones to dothis.
Can you talk a little bit aboutsaints who have gone on
pilgrimage, that we're not justpilgrimaging to them but we're
pilgrimaging with them?
Meg (20:00):
You know there's one of my favorite stories of saints,
devotions to saints, we'll saythere was a guy in France in the
late 18th, early 19th centuryand he was in seminary and he
was just so bad at it.
He was just so bad at it and hekept failing and they kept
(20:21):
threatening him like you are notgoing to be allowed to be
ordained, and he just felt sosure that God was calling him to
this.
And so he was like you knowwhat?
St John Francis Regis, right,he was a 17th century Jesuit in
the mountains of France.
He was like that guy was such agood priest, Like I want to be a
priest the way that he was.
He would hear confessions for12 hours a day.
(20:43):
Right, like he was just soavailable to his people.
He was so good, he was so holy.
And so he went on this massivepilgrimage up an enormous
mountain to this incrediblyinaccessible town called La
Louvain, and this seminarianknelt down at the tomb in the
church of La Louvain, at thetomb of St John Francis Regis,
(21:04):
and he just laid his vocation onthe altar there and he said I
need you to pray for this, Ineed you to make this happen,
and St John Vianney for the restof his life, credited John
Francis Regis with hispriesthood.
He said everything good that hehad accomplished was due to the
(21:26):
intercession and the witness ofSt John Francis Regis.
Joan (21:29):
Wow yeah.
Meg (21:30):
I mean John beyond me, right, and like we know the
story of like he was bad atbeing a seminarian and then he
got to be a priest and he was sogood at whatever, but like to
consider that for him, in thatmoment of like a desperate need
to follow Jesus, he was like whounderstands this struggle,
right, jesus, he was like whounderstands this struggle, right
(21:51):
, who knows what it's like towant so desperately to serve the
Lord in this way and to beunsure if that's even going to
be possible, and for him to goto his big brother and be like
John Francis, just will you prayfor me, cause I just really
want to be a pre, and I justthink it's like the most, the
most darling thing.
Um, it's also, I think,especially cute, because John
Francis Regis was like six footfive and John Vianney was like I
don't know four foot, nothingor something.
(22:12):
He was.
I mean, he wasn't that short,but I think he was like five
foot one or five foot two, Likehe was a little guy.
Joan (22:18):
And so it just feels cute to me.
Meg (22:27):
I also love the story of St Mary of Egypt who, um, for the
sake of young years who may belistening, we will just say uh
was not a PG 13 kind of a woman.
Um, she made a whole lot of badchoices, uh, with partners both
willing and unwilling, so likebad bad y'all like, not St
Augustine, bad like, bad, bad,uh.
And she went on pilgrimage tothe Holy land for the challenge
(22:49):
that it posed in terms of herability to engage other pilgrims
in her favorite activities.
Um, and everyone was going intothe church of the Holy Sepulchre
and she was like, well, youknow, I might as well see what's
happening.
And she was barred fromentering physically, could not
walk through the door and all ofa sudden was confronted with
(23:11):
the reality of her sin.
And for some people that wouldbe so shame-inducing that it
would be devastating and theywould never recover.
But the Lord knew her heart andhe knew that she needed this
confrontation with the realityof her life.
And she was so convicted thatshe immediately renounced all of
her sin and she went presumablyshe went to confession, but
(23:33):
then she went to communion andthen she went on into the desert
and she spent the rest of herlife living as a hermitess.
And it's beautiful, because sooften these stories it's like
she was very wicked and then shehad a conversion and she never
sinned again and you're likegood for you Can't relate to
that.
Joan (23:51):
That is not my story Exactly.
Meg (23:53):
But with her she had lived in her sin for 17 years, and
then for 17 years in the desert.
She struggled.
Joan (23:59):
Wow.
Meg (24:00):
She lived with shame and with temptation, and then,
finally, she was set free andshe became a saint so holy that
in the Eastern church her feastis celebrated on a Sunday.
Wow.
Joan (24:12):
Yeah, there's four of those.
That's incredible.
Meg (24:15):
Yeah.
Joan (24:15):
Ooh, tell us the four.
Meg (24:16):
Oh, I know I couldn't tell you that, sorry, sorry.
All I know is that, yeah,that's a good fact too.
Yeah, four extra biblical, Isuppose there's four.
That's a good fact too.
Four extra biblical, I suppose.
Oh, that's true, yeah.
Joan (24:27):
Was she known during her life?
Was she known?
Did people go out to seek hercounsel or anything?
Meg (24:34):
No, or did she?
Joan (24:35):
live in relative obscurity .
Meg (24:36):
She was discovered at the end of her life by St Zosima,
who was also a hermit, and hehad received a revelation
telling him to go out into thedesert and he encountered her
there and she told him her wholestory and he wrote it down and
she said will you come back in ayear?
(24:56):
Um?
And he went back and discoveredthat she had just passed um,
and so he's the one who told herstory.
But she, but she was living inobscurity.
Wow.
Joan (25:07):
Because sometimes you hear about saints who kind of
themselves.
People go on pilgrimage to themwhile they're still alive,
right?
Meg (25:12):
Yes, like to go seek counsel.
That seems exhausting.
Joan (25:16):
Those are two very different stories of pilgrimage,
which I love.
That again, the saints nothingreally is new, right?
We can all relate to variousthings in the lives of the
saints, and whether we're agreat sinner, we can take a
pilgrimage right.
Whether we're, you know, johnVianney was probably pretty holy
even when he was a littlehumble seminarian, just showing
(25:39):
that pilgrimage is for everyone.
I think sometimes, especiallyhere at Verso, we get the idea
like, oh, you can go onpilgrimage when you're older,
when you have the money, whenyou?
No, that's not the point.
I mean, it'd be great if you goon pilgrimage and like we love
it, right, but to go onpilgrimage now?
Pilgrimage is for everyonesaints, sinners, old, young and
just this variety of whatpilgrimage can give us.
Meg (25:59):
Yeah Well, and I think my approach to pilgrimage is
exhausting, and so the prospectof doing that when I'm old is
just I'm like I will be tootired for the way I do
pilgrimage.
Joan (26:11):
You can't walk up that mountain.
I can't walk up that mountain,I mean.
Meg (26:14):
I just keep ridiculous hours.
I'm like, well, there are 14saints in this country, so we
will see all of them.
And you're like Meg, it's avery large country and I'm like
we will see all of them.
I don't understand the problem.
So, yeah, I mean, I think thatthere's a different way that you
can do pilgrimage when you haveall kinds of energy, as opposed
to a way that you can dopilgrimage when you maybe have a
(26:34):
little bit more time and youcan.
You can take it more slowly,cause you don't have to get back
to kids that you know you don'thave a job breathing down your
neck, Like it's just it's goingto look different in different
seasons, Right, and there aregoing to be times when you can,
like do a kind of a really bigand exciting pilgrimage and
there are times when you canbring your kids to the adoration
(26:57):
chapel in the next town overand you're gonna be like this is
a pilgrimage.
And there are some likebackpacking through Europe when
you're 20 kind of pilgrimagesand some pilgrimages that are,
you know, going to require moreadvanced planning and more
intentionality and like visasand things that you maybe aren't
going to get all of your ducksin a row in other phases of your
(27:17):
life, and God works with it.
Joan (27:19):
All God will work with it all, absolutely.
I think you had a story about asaint you met on pilgrimage.
Meg (27:24):
Yes, was in um, I was in italy and I think I was.
I was probably there givingtalks, um, but I was staying
near padua and I was like, oh,we should go see saint anthony,
obviously.
And then I thought, well, youknow, it's italy, there's not
going to be just one saint,right, like they've got so many
saints, I was gonna wonder whoelse is in padua and so I looked
(27:45):
it up at saint luke.
Joan (27:46):
No big deal.
Um, isn't that strange.
I hate to interrupt you, butisn't it funny to be in padua.
And then you're like, oh,what's in this big church?
Oh, it's saint luke, right.
Like come again.
Like padua's.
Like yeah, we have saintanthony and saint, and like
nobody was in the church, it wasempty.
I was very I tend to be rathera skeptic about relics that
ancient.
Meg (28:05):
But so I was like okay, sure, St Luke, like my theory is
it doesn't hurt, yeah, itdoesn't hurt to act like this is
St Luke, because if it's not,god's not like well you
venerated the wrong shin bone.
He's like you venerated thatwith the graces that are being
given.
But you know, I tend to hearthese things and I'm like sure,
(28:28):
okay, fine.
But they did DNA testing on himand those are the remains of a
Syrian man who died between theyears 70 and 300.
And I was like what are theodds they got the wrong?
Syrian man from the firstcentury.
Joan (28:45):
Like it seems to me.
Meg (28:46):
If that's who they accidentally found that's
probably the actual guy.
But there's a guy named LeopoldMondich whose church had a
convenient mass time.
So I was like hey, how about wego to this guy's church?
And my friend was like sure,yeah, tell me about him.
And I said he was short andshe's like that is probably not
why they canonized him.
(29:07):
And I was like great.
That's.
The only thing I know about himis he was short and she was
like, great, well, let's govisit the short state.
Now, in fairness, he was fourfoot five, like he was not.
He was not John Vianney short,he was like remarkably short, um
.
And I went to visit him and waslike, oh, okay, leopold Mundage
.
And I started reading his storyjust in the signs on the wall
(29:27):
and I was like, oh, oh, I lovehim.
Oh, I mean, like he's on mywater bottle.
Look, I like this right here.
Joan (29:33):
This is St Leopold Mundage .
Meg (29:34):
He's like top five best friends in the world.
Joan (29:36):
I think right now he comes in at number three Wow.
Meg (29:38):
Yeah, yeah, he was Croatian ethnically.
He grew up in I think it wasItaly at the time, but it's now
Slovenia and he was Felt soconvicted that God was calling
him to end the great schism.
Joan (29:59):
You know that division between the Eastern and the
Western church and at that pointwas 850 years old.
Meg (30:05):
He was like put me in coach .
Like I got it.
So he became a Capuchin andthey sent him to Italy and there
are like six OrthodoxChristians in Italy.
So he's like absolutely Like, Iwill obey, but I really think
God is calling me to this.
Will you send me back?
And they were like go to theconfessional.
And so he, like John Vianney,like John Francis Regis, would
(30:26):
spend 12, 14 hours in theconfessional every day and he
would spend three or four hourspraying every night for
reconciliation in the church andhe would console himself that
every confession that he heardwas a small act of that great
work of reconciliation.
But he remained utterly certainfor decades that God was
calling him to end the greatschism.
(30:46):
And he kept going to hissuperiors and they kept sending
him back to the confessional.
Four months before he died hewrote now I am certain that God
is going to use me to end thegreat schism.
And then he died.
And there is no epilogue to thestory.
Joan (31:00):
It's not like and on the anniversary of his death.
Meg (31:02):
The patriarch, no, like he died, period the end.
And I find it so encouragingbecause he died never having
experienced the fulfillment ofthis deep desire of his heart.
But he died happy, because whathe really wanted was Jesus,
what he really wanted wasfaithfulness.
And it's very easy to look atthese saints who prayed and
(31:22):
prayed and prayed and then gotwhat they wanted, and to begin
to fix our heart on answeredprayers instead of fixing our
heart on the one who answersprayers.
But Leopold Monaghan, I mean,he is one of my very best
friends because when I am deepin the middle of my pity parties
and I do love a good pity party, joan he comes and he sits next
to me and he lays his littlebitty head on my shoulder and he
(31:45):
says it is not okay, but God isstill good.
It is not okay, but God isstill good.
And we have saints like Godlover.
St Raphka Pietraszuba Arias isjust like yay, suffering I love
suffering Like a doctor cut outher eyeball and she was like
woohoo, I mean like a mess, um,and that's great that that
(32:07):
worked out for her.
But I need a saint who's goingto acknowledge that the Lord has
put a desire in my heart thathe has chosen not to fulfill.
Yeah, and that that is reallyhard.
Yeah, and that God is reallyhard.
Joan (32:19):
Yeah.
Meg (32:19):
And that God is still working in the midst of it and
through it.
Right, there was somethingabout his desire that the Lord
needed him to have and needednot to fulfill, like there was
work that was being done in himand in the world through that,
and maybe it was like genuinelydecades for him and God was
working in him, because Godnever uses us without doing good
(32:41):
for us as well.
But maybe it really was justthat I was going to break if I
didn't have a saint friend whoselife was a series of unanswered
prayers, because that, I mean,my life is so many unanswered
prayers and I sit with LeopoldMondage and he points me back to
(33:01):
Jesus.
Joan (33:02):
Yeah, and he teaches us not to waste those desires and
that suffering right.
Meg (33:07):
Yes.
Joan (33:08):
Okay, I'm not called to go end the Western schism, the way
I thought I was called, butI've been called in obedience
right?
That's a very difficult virtueIn obedience.
I'm going to hear theseconfessions.
Right, that's a very difficultvirtue in obedience.
I'm going to hear theseconfessions and I believe that
there is grace and I believethat God can use this, even if
it's not my plan and even ifit's not how I thought it was
going to be used.
(33:29):
I think I know I waste so muchsuffering and in those pity
parties and in that suffering Iforget that I could be offering
it for someone or I could bedoing good with it.
Jesus wants to do good with itand he can, um, and so that
beautiful lesson of when ourplan isn't the Lord's plan but
yet we have that desire in ourheart.
Um and his story in a sense isover.
(33:51):
But it's not in the grandscheme, Like maybe there is
going to be this greatreconciliation between the East
and the West on his feast day.
That is such a beautiful, thatis so encouraging.
I think we can hear that storyand be discouraged, and we
shouldn't be.
We should be encouraged as yousee, that encouragement that the
(34:12):
Lord is good.
Meg (34:14):
The Lord is good and that sometimes he is the one giving
you this desire, even though heintends not to fulfill it,
because that unfulfillment isdoing something because that
desire is doing something.
I pray frequently.
I say Lord, I want to want whatyou want me to want even if you
don't want me to have it,because for a while, I was like
(34:35):
well, lord just deliver me ofthese desires If you're not if
it's not your will to fulfillthem, deliver me of these
desires.
And then I was like no, no, Ilove what you do through the
desires that you give me thatyou do not intend to fulfill,
and I hate it too.
But, like, I have seen thisbear fruit and so I want to want
what you want me to want, evenif you don't want me to have it.
Joan (34:58):
That's a powerful and very difficult prayer, right Wow.
Meg (35:07):
And so much of it is because I went on random
pilgrimage to this random churchof this random saint that I
mean, maybe eventually I wouldhave heard about him, but I
don't think I would have reallydug into him.
There's nothing about him thatlike grabs me.
You know, there are a lot ofsaints that I'm just like.
I read their list of facts thatare not stories and I say okay
and I move on.
I think in order to love him,it was going to take pilgrimage
(35:28):
to encounter him in that waywhere I couldn't skim and then
look away.
Right, I had to really leaninto that and I mean I have
spoken about him, given talksabout him, dozens, maybe
hundreds of times.
He is in both of my saint books, like he is one of my dearest
friends, and it's because I wenton pilgrimage.
Joan (35:49):
So you know I'm a fan.
Yeah, the beauty of thatencounter and we talk a lot
about letting the Lord work inyour pilgrimage and not having
there are certain expectationsyou can go in with.
But if you go in ready to letthe Lord work with your
pilgrimage, that he's going tointroduce you to the people you
need to be introduced, whetherthey are canonized or whether
they're fellow pilgrims.
He's going to work through thatpilgrimage in a way you can't
(36:10):
even imagine.
If we're open and I think wecan be closed to that, but if
we're open to it he can doamazing things in that encounter
.
Meg (36:19):
Yes, I'm I'm really excited about our pilgrimage to South
Korea.
You guys should come with us,um, because there are so many
South Korean saints that I knowpeople are going to come away
with new best friends who I havenever heard of you know?
I mean, I think at this pointI've read all of their stories
once, but like, haven't retained, like didn't get excited about,
but like I don't know there'ssomething really special about
(36:42):
just the massive number thatwe're going to encounter.
Like it, it is very hard to getthis high.
A number of stories per squaremile, right, Like named saints
per square mile.
Italy can probably hang, yeah,but like actual stories per
square mile, italy can probablyhang Um, but like actual stories
(37:03):
per square mile, like I, Ireally should do the math, cause
this is now a fascinatingquestion to me.
But once you include all 103,124, 252 and that one venerable
um, there's a lot of people alot of stories, a lot of
personalities, a lot ofcircumstances.
Right, like there's one I can'tremember her name at the moment
but she, her dad, wanted tomarry her off to a non-Christian
(37:24):
.
So she just pretended her legsdidn't work for two years, like
like, who are you and why areyou my favorite, you know?
I mean, that's totally the kindof thing I would have done when
.
I was 17 years old.
And then finally he was likeall right, fine, don't marry
that guy.
And she's like, oh my gosh, mylegs work again.
Weird, you know.
Like I mean, it's that thatkind of personality that we see
(37:45):
in these stories that we'regoing to encounter when we find
these people.
Um, and I'm just, I'm soexcited to see the new
relationships and the newinspirations that the Lord is
making when you have so manyencounters in one 10 day period.
Joan (38:01):
Yeah, there's so long for everyone.
So the food, the whole.
We believe in a holistic viewof pilgrimage.
You have to experience, youknow everything I mean, joe.
Meg (38:12):
what could be more fun?
Joan (38:14):
So, as we wrap up, I would love for you to talk a little
bit about how people can findout more.
Like maybe there is someonelistening saying you know, I
don't really, I don't thinkthere's a saint for me, or I
agree with you.
I think the saints are plasterstatues or stained glass windows
that don't relate to me, orwhat would you.
And be sure to have a shamelessplug.
(38:35):
It's not so shameless, but howcould people find out more about
the saints?
What would you recommend?
Meg (38:40):
So you can read my books.
I've got two books on thesaints out.
One is called Saints Around theWorld.
It's 100 stories of saints from70 different countries
showcasing just an incrediblevariety of personality types and
states in life and familysituations and hobbies and joys
and struggles.
And that's a children's book sobeautiful illustrations.
(39:04):
But I always tell people it'sgood for ages 3 to 12 and then
18 and up 13 to 17, you're tooold for it, but at 18, you're
old enough for it again.
And then Pray for Us 75 Saintswho Sinned, suffered and
Struggled on their Way toHoliness Again highlights a
really diverse group of saints.
I would say most people mostlike serious practicing
(39:24):
Catholics who opened that bookwould maybe have heard of like
five that's awesome.
Lots of brand new friends, lotsof different circumstances.
They both have really goodindices where you can look up
mental illness or divorce orbullying, or scientists or
athletes, or courage.
I mean just like all kinds ofdifferent ways that you can
approach this search.
(39:45):
You can also go on my Instagramand look at my story highlights
.
I've got like black saints,Asian saints, Latino saints.
Especially if you have feltunderrepresented in your ethnic
background, We've got a saintfor that.
So those are the ways that youcan look up my resources.
I really recommend books by AnnBall.
She does a good job.
(40:05):
If you I don't remember the, wecan link it in the show notes.
Joan (40:10):
We will definitely link all this in the show notes.
Meg (40:12):
I wrote an article on my favorite saint books at one
point.
Oh, perfect, because a lot oftimes if you're just Googling
you're not going to find theright person and you're not
gonna find the story told right.
There's so many websites thatare just like oh, here's this
one public domain.
Three sentence right.
Piece of nonsense right or aquote that they never said.
(40:33):
Oh mercy, I feel so manyfeelings about that when you're
like no 16th century human wouldever have said something like
that, let alone a Carmelite.
Joan (40:41):
Come on.
Meg (40:43):
But I mean I understand, because so many of the resources
that we have are just so banal,like there's nothing exciting.
There's nothing interesting,there's nothing that points to
Jesus, there's nothing thatpoints to Jesus.
But I think if you feel thereis no saint who can speak to me,
it's because you're notlistening to the right stories,
(41:08):
reading the right stories.
So I would keep digging, and ifyou come on pilgrimage with me,
then you can just pick my brainon the saints all the time.
I don't always respond toInstagram messages, but if
you're sitting next to me on thebus I really feel like I will
answer your question.
Joan (41:22):
Well, there's the answer and we will have that in the
show notes as well, if you wantto join Meg on pilgrimage.
One thing I really love aboutthe saints book is the um, the
stickers that you get to addwhen they're canonized and
beatified.
I think it just reminds us thatwe're in the middle of these
stories and that, like, theLord's still working and the
Lord's still speaking, and youknow, like when this book was
(41:44):
published they were venerable orbeatified, and that changes and
the church grows and our bodyof Christ grows, and it's really
exciting.
Meg (41:53):
You know, it's great because St Margaret of Costello
was a medieval saint and she wasbeatified hundreds of years ago
and she was a blessed throughthe 15th century and the 16th
century and the 17th century andthe 18th century until 2021,
the week after our book went toprint.
(42:14):
Her cause didn't move at all andthen she was suddenly canonized
with no advance notice, and sothe book was not up to date for
even one minute and I was like,oh, I got to figure out a way
that I am not devastated bycanonizations.
This is not.
So we came up with this stickerconcept and I tell people it is
the world's slowest interactivebook, because every several
(42:35):
years you may get to put asticker in.
So if you had a first edition,you have put in two stickers.
Joan (42:41):
Now there was one recently right, yeah, because it's on
Instagram.
Meg (42:44):
Yeah, st Maria Antonia de Paz y Figueroa.
Yes, she's called Mama Antula.
She was the first Argentinianwoman to be canonized, very
exciting.
Yeah, and like everyone waslike oh, I'm going to put my
sticker in.
Joan (42:55):
So not only are you not devastated by canonizations,
it's super exciting.
Meg (42:58):
Exactly it gets even more exciting and people send videos
of their kids putting thesticker on and I'm like, all
right, see you in seven yearswhen this happens again, but it
unites us with that universalchurch.
Joan (43:08):
That, um, I remember going to a beatification.
I was just in Rome so I went.
I think it was a canonizationof like seven people, and don't
ask me who these seven peoplewere.
I was just there because it wasa canonization and the Pope was
there and it was exciting andit was lovely and I probably
should look up who those sevenpeople were.
Meg (43:22):
But it just I know that's terrible.
Okay, that's what I'm going todo, okay.
Joan (43:28):
I'm going to try to remember what day that was, um,
but it's just one of thosethings that we can be so
disconnected from the universalchurch, and this is just yet
another way to unite us to theuniversal church, to the Holy
Father, to our best friends.
Meg (43:39):
Well, and just thinking about all of these little
American kids who were soexcited.
And nobody else was excitedexcept.
Argentina right, and so it waslike Argentina and this like
random subset of Americanchildren who were like in
solidarity in that moment rightand they'll probably never meet
each other, but like they werecelebrating on the same day.
Joan (44:01):
I love it.
Oh, the saints are so good.
So we'll link everything in theshow notes and thank you so
much, Meg, for joining us, and Ican't wait to see what new best
friends people discover throughyour books.
The books would make greatconfirmation presence.
They'd make great sacramentpresence.
You know, don't let your, youknow, encourage your confirmandi
child to pick some saint thatthey discover and for the first
(44:25):
time.
I would really encourage that so, but thanks for joining us, Meg
.
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
God bless listeners, you wantto share this episode,
especially with a friend whomight not really know much about
the saints.
Appreciate much about thesaints, who need to meet the
saints, share this episode withthem and let's enlarge that
knowledge of the body of Christ.
God bless.
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're navigating
the pilgrimage of life.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
Welcome back to In Via.
In today's episode we are goingto look at saints who have gone
on pilgrimage, and who betterto talk about that than saint
expert Meg Hunter Kilmer?
(00:42):
Meg is a Catholic speaker,author and campus minister who
travels the world telling peopleabout the fierce and tender
love of God and helps peoplediscover new friendships in the
saints.
I think you're going to loveour conversation, meg.
Thanks for joining us today onthe podcast, joan I am so glad
to be here.
(01:03):
I would love for you to tell ourlisteners a little bit more
about yourself.
I usually restrict my guests tothree sentences about
themselves.
No one really listens to that,so why don't you just tell us
about yourself?
Perfect.
Meg (01:14):
So my name is Meg Hunter Kilmer.
I am an author and a speakerand a campus minister and a
missionary.
I just spent 12 years livingout of a car, but now I have a
house, so exciting.
And all of the issues that comewith having a house like that.
My whole basement needswaterproof two months after I
bought the house.
But living here in South Bend,working in campus ministry at
(01:37):
Notre Dame, writing some books,giving all the talks, keeping
myself very busy.
Joan (01:41):
Nice, nice.
So how did you I think a lot ofpeople know you as the saint
expert right, would you have you?
Do you have a moniker?
Um, you had a moniker when youwere living in the car.
Meg (01:53):
People called me the hobo for Christ.
People sometimes use saintninja.
Joan (01:57):
That's probably my fault.
Meg (01:58):
I probably did that to myself but then I feel like, is
that insensitive to?
Joan (02:01):
like but ninjas aren't real, so maybe it's okay I don't
know, Just like.
Meg (02:06):
It's one of those words where you're like maybe this is
not.
Should I use that?
Yeah, I don't know.
Joan (02:10):
Well, you definitely, I think in most people who know
you in our minds are the saintexpert, like if we want to know
about a saint.
I think what I love most aboutyou is that you know all the
saints that no one knows,because I mean, there's a lot of
us that could spout off.
You know the usuals, but I lovecoming to you and to your books
for the saints that no oneknows.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow you got into that, like
(02:31):
what attracted you to that?
Meg (02:32):
You know I really was not interested in the saints for a
long time, partially because theway that people talked about
them it kind of sounded likeinstead of Jesus, and I have
absolutely no interest inanything instead of Jesus, like
anything at all instead of Jesus.
And people were like, well, youknow, when I can't go to Jesus,
rose of Lima she hooks me up andI'm like I don't, I don't love
(02:55):
that.
But I think also the way that Iheard the stories told they
weren't stories, they were justlists of random facts and they
weren't about Jesus and how youmake Francis of Assisi not about
Jesus.
I mean, this man was known asthe most Christlike man since
Christ and people made him intolike a bunny snuggler and I was
(03:16):
like no, I'm not interested.
I'm not interested in thesesweet, saccharine women gazing
heavenward.
Butter wouldn't melt in theirmouth Like I'm a lot, joan.
Joan (03:24):
I'm a lot.
Meg (03:28):
And I'm good with that, I'm real comfortable with who I am.
But when I was first coming toknow Jesus and it looked like
holiness always involved, quiet,meek, placid, gazing heavenward
in a stained glass window whilebeing skinny I mean it's just
like it wasn't.
It wasn't my jam, um.
And I heard the story of Teresaof Avila and I was like, okay,
like nobody can ruin Teresa's ofAvila's saltiness Like.
(03:53):
I haven't even heard people tryto make her sound shy and
retiring so I was like, okay,one time there was a salty
female saying we are going fortwo.
Right, but I kind of wrote thewhole category off as being
irrelevant.
Joan (04:08):
Yeah.
Meg (04:09):
And then I read a book called Modern Saints by Ann Ball
and she actually tells thestories and they're interesting
and they're compelling andthey're about Jesus, and I was
like, oh, this is what I wasmade to do, because I have
always been a storyteller.
Yeah, and I have like a weird,almost robotic memory for
(04:32):
stories.
Joan (04:32):
Yeah.
Meg (04:33):
Like other facts, I got nothing.
I am thrilled every time I goto a zoo because I learned for
the first time again thesethings that I have learned every
time I've ever been to a zoo.
Like my brain just does notretain these things that I have
learned every time I've everbeen to a zoo Like my brain just
does not retain but stories.
I've always hung on to like asteel trap and and realizing
that this is a way that I cantell the story of Jesus.
(04:53):
Yeah, Right Like in in manyplaces in this country and with
many people it feels invasive tojust be like excuse me, can I
talk to you about?
Jesus Right, so you got to finda side door but, everybody
wants to hear a story of ahermit who spent every night
with a different prostitute andthen got canonized.
And you're like, I'm sorry,like what, what?
Joan (05:15):
now that one St.
Meg (05:16):
Vitalis of Gaza.
And so when you, when you tella story and then you make it
about Jesus, because they areabout Jesus and that's the only
point of their lives well thenyou can preach the gospel to
people who maybe didn't want tohear it, but you can also preach
the gospel in a way that speaksvery specifically to the wounds
in people's lives and make themfeel ineligible for the love of
(05:37):
Jesus.
Joan (05:38):
Right.
Meg (05:39):
You know, I can say God loves you and your addiction.
And you're like, yeah, you haveto say that you've got the
bumper sticker.
Like I get it.
Jesus loves you.
But it feels like people arejust trying too hard to make you
feel welcome.
And then I'm like no, like StMark G Tianxiang was an opium
addict for 30 years, never wentto confession about it and died
and he is a canonized saint.
(06:00):
Like this is what addictionlooks like with a halo on it,
right.
This is what divorce andremarriage looks like with a
halo on it.
This is what being a scientistlooks like with a halo on it.
This is what a limb differencelooks like with a halo on it,
right.
Like all of these differentthings that people feel like
they don't belong in the churchfor whatever reason, you know
sometimes.
Sometimes it's something thatcauses great suffering and
(06:21):
sometimes it's a great love oftheirs where they're like oh,
you can't be a musician and asaint and I'm like, oh, sit down
, like I can do way better thanCecilia.
And so just recognizing thepower this could have for
evangelism and the way thatpeople just need to feel seen.
And so I have spent the lasteight or nine years really
(06:42):
digging into all of thesestories so that when people talk
about the particularcircumstances of their lives I
can say, hey, like do you, doyou want a saint friend who had
that same experience, who hadthat same mental health
diagnosis, who had that samehobby, who had that same family
situation and the way that itjust like people sit up
(07:04):
straighter situation.
And the way that it, just likepeople sit up straighter.
You know, because it's a.
It's a, an official cry fromthe Lord you are wanted and you
belong.
Joan (07:18):
And I, I'm seen, I, they, they feel seen, because I can be
a part of this body of Christ,because others have gone before
me with what I thought was ahurdle and what actually could
be my cross and my, my way toheaven.
Meg (07:27):
Exactly.
Joan (07:28):
It's wonderful.
Um, so you are going to SouthKorea, Very excited about that.
Um, you can talk a little bitabout South Korea, but what?
Um, you know you're going onpilgrimage and this podcast is
all about pilgrimage.
So I'd also love to say, like,why pilgrimage?
Like, why are you leading thispilgrimage to South Korea?
What, what in your heartthought, so let's go to South
(07:49):
Korea on pilgrimage?
Meg (07:50):
You know, john Paul, uh, who is the head of Verso,
reached out to me and was like,would you like to take a
pilgrimage?
And I was like, oh my gosh,john Paul, south Korea.
And he was like, really, so Imean he was like all about it,
but you know everybody wants togo to Italy, everybody wants to
go to the Holy land, everybodywants to go to Lords and not to
be an obnoxious hipster whodoesn't do things everybody else
(08:10):
does but piano man.
The church in South Korea isjust amazing.
It's the only country ever tohave evangelized itself.
Everyone else had missionaries.
South Korea had some teenageboys who found a book about
Jesus, studied it for 10 yearsand then were like let's do it,
and it smuggled one of theirbuddies out of the country to
get baptized.
He got baptized in China, gotsmuggled back in, baptized his
(08:33):
friends.
They baptized 1,000 people insix months, just some like
20-something-year-old layman whohad been baptized for 15
minutes.
The church in Korea the first50 years there was one priest
for six years total and he wasan undocumented immigrant from
China.
Everything else was organic,grassroots, lay-led, and to
(08:55):
encounter a church that began inthe modern era without any ties
to imperialism or colonialismwhere you don't have to sift
through those roots and say,okay, well, what part of this
was forced on us or what part ofthis was their like societal
pressure.
It's like like Korea heard thename of Jesus and was like,
let's do this and there weretons and tons of martyrdoms, on
(09:19):
the order of 10,000.
And that has left us with 103saints, 124 blessed, 252
servants of God and a venerable.
The numbers are unreal and thechurch in Korea has been so good
about collecting the stories ofthese martyrs with an
individuality to them, a lot ofthese big lumps of martyrdom.
(09:40):
We maybe know their names andperhaps the way they died.
But the Korean bishops havemade sure that we know their
occupation and their familyhistory and often even their
personality, which it is reallyunusual in groups of martyrs for
personality to come through.
Joan (09:57):
And that is so much of what I love is getting to know
the personalities of the saints.
Meg (10:01):
So I went to South Korea, kind of by accident, in 2017.
I wanted to go to Australia andthen my friend was like while
you're on that side of theplanet, you should come to Korea
, which is sort of like saying,while you're in Chile, you
should come to Seattle.
But it's actually not like that, because the flights are much
cheaper.
So then I started planningaround Korea.
I didn't end up going toAustralia.
(10:22):
I went to see a friend in SouthKorea, did a bunch of speaking
on military installations, but Ididn't know the South Korean
saints at all.
I was like brand new and lovingthe saints, um, and so I hadn't
done any research into them.
And then I got there and thereare just saints everywhere and
the churches are packed.
Like you go to a 10 AM Tuesdaymass and there's a hundred
(10:42):
people there, right.
And like I discovered the storyof the founding of the church at
the site of the foundationwhich is like way out in the
country we're going to be goingthere, it's so cool, and I, we
pulled up and the guy in theguardhouse, his jaw dropped and
he started like babbling andexcitingly, excitedly, like
(11:03):
rifling through this box ofpapers and then he pulled out an
english language book tellingthe story.
That was like brittle with ageand had a coffee stain on it and
you could tell he was like ohmy gosh, oh my gosh, white
people I bet they speak englishlike I don't I don't know that
an american had come to thislocation.
(11:23):
Yeah, Right.
At least an American who didn'tspeak Korean right.
Like a white American, maybe Idon't know, I don't know what it
was about me, but he was likeoh, this girl, maybe it was just
the Holy Spirit was like yeahlet her know about this.
But so I'm just like at this,this pilgrimage that nobody goes
to cause it's in the middle ofnowhere, it was the smallest
mass I went to the whole time.
(11:43):
I was there with like six.
Everything else was no joke,joan, 100 people.
And I'm reading this bookletand I'm like, oh man, like I
knew this place was cool withall these saints.
But to hear the way the HolySpirit just did this like wild
and incredible thing in thiscommunity, and I mean it was
persecutions nonstop for 80years to the tune of thousands
(12:09):
and thousands of martyrs andthey just wouldn't quit.
Right, and the church today is11% of South Koreans.
Protestants are 17%, right, soit's, I mean, it's a good, a
huge chunk, particularly for aneast asian country that's not
the philippines, and that, yeah,it's just, it's beautiful and
(12:29):
the faith is alive and thesesaints are so real and so
tangible and and I reallyencountered that sort of
accidentally- by going on thispilgrimage.
I don't even know how we foundthis location, because it's like
impossible.
I mean, when we were planningthe the pilgrimage, I was like,
okay, this is how I spelled itwhen I was there, but I don't
know what to Google.
(12:50):
Like I'm Googling and nothing'scoming up and it's hard to find
them.
Google maps, and we figured itout, but I don't know how the
woman who was hosting me, whowas also just like some American
woman who doesn't speak Korean,I don't know how she found it,
but I like brought my friendback there and and now I'm
bringing this whole group withus, because there's something
about being in that spot, right?
So this is like it's wilderness.
(13:11):
They have cleared a space wherethey're going to build a
massive church that they expectto take a hundred years, which
is wild in the 21st century.
I didn't know that was still athing that happened, other than,
I guess, the Sagrada Familia,but most pilgrim sites that you
go to it's like.
Here is a pilgrim sitesurrounded by a bunch of stuff
(13:32):
that's been built up since thatsaint was there.
Right, it's you know you go toLords and it's Catholic
Disneyland with Sagrada, or yougo.
Maybe you want to visit thetomb of St John Neumann in
Philadelphia and like nothingaround that cathedral is
anything that he would have seen.
Joan (13:51):
Right.
Takes a lot of imagination.
Meg (13:53):
Exactly In America we don't have as many pilgrimage sites
as you do, Obviously, allthroughout Europe.
But you know, South Korea is avery small country to have that
many saints that is, 10 times asmany canonized saints as we
have.
But you know, when we havethese pilgrim saints here, for
the most part it's like justthis spot, and then you step
(14:16):
outside and it doesn't feel thatway.
And it's the same way in SouthKorea, where most of the pilgrim
sites, like in the church,you're somewhere sacred and then
you step outside and you'reback to where you were but
Chongjinam, it's 1795.
Wow, you know, because thereisn't like you drive up to the
parking lot and then there areno longer roads.
(14:38):
There are there are trails thatyou climb up and then you get
to the cemetery and, like, thegravestones are obviously not
well, I guess the gravestonesare not 1795.
The gravestones are obviouslynot well.
I guess the gravestones are not1795.
The gravestones are much newer.
The bodies were recovered um Ithink in the eighties and they
did DNA testing to currentlyliving descendants of the
founders of the church toidentify the remains, which is
(14:59):
really cool, but like you'rewalking through the woods,
hiking up this mountain to getto this spot, and you're like
this is how they would come backfrom going home to visit their
families.
Right Like like some of thesetrees.
I don't know how old trees getin South Korea Maybe.
Maybe they're not 250 years old, but like I mean it's the same
(15:21):
kind of tree it's the same kindof feel.
It's the same kind of silenceand so just feeling like you are
really walking in theirfootsteps.
There's something very specialabout that and it does feel like
a step back outside of time towalk with Servant of God John
Baptist Ebyuk and Servant of GodPeter and to feel the
(15:46):
excitement that they felt atbeing able to bring the gospel
to people who had neverencountered Jesus before.
It's just, it's incredible.
I hate hiking Joan more thanreally almost anything in the
world, like sin first and thenbananas and then hiking, and I
like I go to Alaska and I do notbring appropriate shoes so that
(16:09):
people can't make me hike, likeI hate hiking.
I have to stay home and I wentback a second time to hike this
mountain again.
Joan (16:17):
Wow.
Meg (16:18):
Because the feeling of encounter was so tremendous.
Joan (16:24):
Yeah, it's hard to explain to someone who's like, well,
I'll just read a book abouttheir life and it's a great
story, meg thanks.
But to be there it's almostlike just try it right, just try
.
And I think sometimes it's hardto explain to someone
pilgrimage when they're like,well, I can pray here, I can
pray in my own church, of courseyou can, that's great.
But there's something aboutencountering Christ and
(16:46):
encountering these people in theplace that is kind of
indescribable until youexperience it.
Meg (16:53):
Exactly.
And pilgrimage is possiblelocally, right.
You don't have to be going to aplace where a saint lived.
Although if you are in the USand you are looking for a local
place where a saint or servantof God or venerable lived, I can
hook you up, because if you'rein the Southwest you have to
drive a little farther, but inmuch of the country you're
within five or six hours ofsomeplace like this.
(17:16):
But you can also make apilgrimage to your cathedral,
and maybe your cathedral isnothing to write home about, but
it is your connection to theuniversal church, it is your
connection to your bishop asyour spiritual father who ties
you back to the apostles whowalked with Jesus.
Like it doesn't have to be thismajor financial layout for you
(17:38):
to go on pilgrimage, right, youcan find a way to make local
pilgrimages to sites that aremeaningful, even if a saint
never walked that images, tosites that are meaningful even
if a saint never walked at.
But if you have the ability togo and be where the saints
walked, to visit their homes, tovisit their bodies right, to
hear the wind move through thetrees that they walked under, I
(18:00):
mean there's something therewhere you're like, let's go.
Like I visited Carlo Acutiswhen he was still in the
cemetery in Rome.
Like I knew him when, uh, hewas a servant of God, wasn't
even venerable yet Like, and Ihunted him down in this cemetery
and I have seen so many saintsright Like.
I have been on pilgrimage somany places, sometimes on
purpose, sometimes by accident,um, but there was something
(18:22):
about standing in front of hisbody in the cemetery and being
like, like, looking at histombstone that said 1991.
Yeah, and thinking what have Ibeen doing with my life?
And my priest friend who waswith me was like well, not dying
.
So that's, that's the firstthing holding you back from
canonization.
Meg in case you were justtrying to figure that out.
(18:43):
Right, but there's somethingabout being there and the way
that it just invites you toreexamine your life and to say
can I belong more to Jesus thanI have?
Can I be his in a more real, amore immediate, a more powerful
way?
Joan (19:02):
Yeah, and maybe there are no saints buried in your local
cathedral, but maybe a saint hasgone.
like there's so many people inheaven, we don't know their
names and so you're also walkingwith the saints wherever you're
walking, because a saint hasgone there before you, whether
you know their name or not.
And I love the idea of Carlobecause we can make pilgrimages
(19:23):
to Carlo.
But we can make pilgrimageswith Carlo, um, you know, I
think, just being in theseplaces where we have photographs
of Carlo being right, um, wewent to Santarem outside Fatima,
the Eucharistic miracle site,and he has a, you know, a.
There's a picture of Carlostanding outside the church.
He got his picture taken, so weall took pictures in the same
spot and it's like we're notjust walking to these places,
(19:46):
but we're also walking withthese saints and we're walking.
We're not the first ones to dothis.
Can you talk a little bit aboutsaints who have gone on
pilgrimage, that we're not justpilgrimaging to them but we're
pilgrimaging with them?
Meg (20:00):
You know there's one of my favorite stories of saints,
devotions to saints, we'll saythere was a guy in France in the
late 18th, early 19th centuryand he was in seminary and he
was just so bad at it.
He was just so bad at it and hekept failing and they kept
(20:21):
threatening him like you are notgoing to be allowed to be
ordained, and he just felt sosure that God was calling him to
this.
And so he was like you knowwhat?
St John Francis Regis, right,he was a 17th century Jesuit in
the mountains of France.
He was like that guy was such agood priest, Like I want to be a
priest the way that he was.
He would hear confessions for12 hours a day.
(20:43):
Right, like he was just soavailable to his people.
He was so good, he was so holy.
And so he went on this massivepilgrimage up an enormous
mountain to this incrediblyinaccessible town called La
Louvain, and this seminarianknelt down at the tomb in the
church of La Louvain, at thetomb of St John Francis Regis,
(21:04):
and he just laid his vocation onthe altar there and he said I
need you to pray for this, Ineed you to make this happen,
and St John Vianney for the restof his life, credited John
Francis Regis with hispriesthood.
He said everything good that hehad accomplished was due to the
(21:26):
intercession and the witness ofSt John Francis Regis.
Joan (21:29):
Wow yeah.
Meg (21:30):
I mean John beyond me, right, and like we know the
story of like he was bad atbeing a seminarian and then he
got to be a priest and he was sogood at whatever, but like to
consider that for him, in thatmoment of like a desperate need
to follow Jesus, he was like whounderstands this struggle,
right, jesus, he was like whounderstands this struggle, right
(21:51):
, who knows what it's like towant so desperately to serve the
Lord in this way and to beunsure if that's even going to
be possible, and for him to goto his big brother and be like
John Francis, just will you prayfor me, cause I just really
want to be a pre, and I justthink it's like the most, the
most darling thing.
Um, it's also, I think,especially cute, because John
Francis Regis was like six footfive and John Vianney was like I
don't know four foot, nothingor something.
(22:12):
He was.
I mean, he wasn't that short,but I think he was like five
foot one or five foot two, Likehe was a little guy.
Joan (22:18):
And so it just feels cute to me.
Meg (22:27):
I also love the story of St Mary of Egypt who, um, for the
sake of young years who may belistening, we will just say uh
was not a PG 13 kind of a woman.
Um, she made a whole lot of badchoices, uh, with partners both
willing and unwilling, so likebad bad y'all like, not St
Augustine, bad like, bad, bad,uh.
And she went on pilgrimage tothe Holy land for the challenge
(22:49):
that it posed in terms of herability to engage other pilgrims
in her favorite activities.
Um, and everyone was going intothe church of the Holy Sepulchre
and she was like, well, youknow, I might as well see what's
happening.
And she was barred fromentering physically, could not
walk through the door and all ofa sudden was confronted with
(23:11):
the reality of her sin.
And for some people that wouldbe so shame-inducing that it
would be devastating and theywould never recover.
But the Lord knew her heart andhe knew that she needed this
confrontation with the realityof her life.
And she was so convicted thatshe immediately renounced all of
her sin and she went presumablyshe went to confession, but
(23:33):
then she went to communion andthen she went on into the desert
and she spent the rest of herlife living as a hermitess.
And it's beautiful, because sooften these stories it's like
she was very wicked and then shehad a conversion and she never
sinned again and you're likegood for you Can't relate to
that.
Joan (23:51):
That is not my story Exactly.
Meg (23:53):
But with her she had lived in her sin for 17 years, and
then for 17 years in the desert.
She struggled.
Joan (23:59):
Wow.
Meg (24:00):
She lived with shame and with temptation, and then,
finally, she was set free andshe became a saint so holy that
in the Eastern church her feastis celebrated on a Sunday.
Wow.
Joan (24:12):
Yeah, there's four of those.
That's incredible.
Meg (24:15):
Yeah.
Joan (24:15):
Ooh, tell us the four.
Meg (24:16):
Oh, I know I couldn't tell you that, sorry, sorry.
All I know is that, yeah,that's a good fact too.
Yeah, four extra biblical, Isuppose there's four.
That's a good fact too.
Four extra biblical, I suppose.
Oh, that's true, yeah.
Joan (24:27):
Was she known during her life?
Was she known?
Did people go out to seek hercounsel or anything?
Meg (24:34):
No, or did she?
Joan (24:35):
live in relative obscurity .
Meg (24:36):
She was discovered at the end of her life by St Zosima,
who was also a hermit, and hehad received a revelation
telling him to go out into thedesert and he encountered her
there and she told him her wholestory and he wrote it down and
she said will you come back in ayear?
(24:56):
Um?
And he went back and discoveredthat she had just passed um,
and so he's the one who told herstory.
But she, but she was living inobscurity.
Wow.
Joan (25:07):
Because sometimes you hear about saints who kind of
themselves.
People go on pilgrimage to themwhile they're still alive,
right?
Meg (25:12):
Yes, like to go seek counsel.
That seems exhausting.
Joan (25:16):
Those are two very different stories of pilgrimage,
which I love.
That again, the saints nothingreally is new, right?
We can all relate to variousthings in the lives of the
saints, and whether we're agreat sinner, we can take a
pilgrimage right.
Whether we're, you know, johnVianney was probably pretty holy
even when he was a littlehumble seminarian, just showing
(25:39):
that pilgrimage is for everyone.
I think sometimes, especiallyhere at Verso, we get the idea
like, oh, you can go onpilgrimage when you're older,
when you have the money, whenyou?
No, that's not the point.
I mean, it'd be great if you goon pilgrimage and like we love
it, right, but to go onpilgrimage now?
Pilgrimage is for everyonesaints, sinners, old, young and
just this variety of whatpilgrimage can give us.
Meg (25:59):
Yeah Well, and I think my approach to pilgrimage is
exhausting, and so the prospectof doing that when I'm old is
just I'm like I will be tootired for the way I do
pilgrimage.
Joan (26:11):
You can't walk up that mountain.
I can't walk up that mountain,I mean.
Meg (26:14):
I just keep ridiculous hours.
I'm like, well, there are 14saints in this country, so we
will see all of them.
And you're like Meg, it's avery large country and I'm like
we will see all of them.
I don't understand the problem.
So, yeah, I mean, I think thatthere's a different way that you
can do pilgrimage when you haveall kinds of energy, as opposed
to a way that you can dopilgrimage when you maybe have a
(26:34):
little bit more time and youcan.
You can take it more slowly,cause you don't have to get back
to kids that you know you don'thave a job breathing down your
neck, Like it's just it's goingto look different in different
seasons, Right, and there aregoing to be times when you can,
like do a kind of a really bigand exciting pilgrimage and
there are times when you canbring your kids to the adoration
(26:57):
chapel in the next town overand you're gonna be like this is
a pilgrimage.
And there are some likebackpacking through Europe when
you're 20 kind of pilgrimagesand some pilgrimages that are,
you know, going to require moreadvanced planning and more
intentionality and like visasand things that you maybe aren't
going to get all of your ducksin a row in other phases of your
(27:17):
life, and God works with it.
Joan (27:19):
All God will work with it all, absolutely.
I think you had a story about asaint you met on pilgrimage.
Meg (27:24):
Yes, was in um, I was in italy and I think I was.
I was probably there givingtalks, um, but I was staying
near padua and I was like, oh,we should go see saint anthony,
obviously.
And then I thought, well, youknow, it's italy, there's not
going to be just one saint,right, like they've got so many
saints, I was gonna wonder whoelse is in padua and so I looked
(27:45):
it up at saint luke.
Joan (27:46):
No big deal.
Um, isn't that strange.
I hate to interrupt you, butisn't it funny to be in padua.
And then you're like, oh,what's in this big church?
Oh, it's saint luke, right.
Like come again.
Like padua's.
Like yeah, we have saintanthony and saint, and like
nobody was in the church, it wasempty.
I was very I tend to be rathera skeptic about relics that
ancient.
Meg (28:05):
But so I was like okay, sure, St Luke, like my theory is
it doesn't hurt, yeah, itdoesn't hurt to act like this is
St Luke, because if it's not,god's not like well you
venerated the wrong shin bone.
He's like you venerated thatwith the graces that are being
given.
But you know, I tend to hearthese things and I'm like sure,
(28:28):
okay, fine.
But they did DNA testing on himand those are the remains of a
Syrian man who died between theyears 70 and 300.
And I was like what are theodds they got the wrong?
Syrian man from the firstcentury.
Joan (28:45):
Like it seems to me.
Meg (28:46):
If that's who they accidentally found that's
probably the actual guy.
But there's a guy named LeopoldMondich whose church had a
convenient mass time.
So I was like hey, how about wego to this guy's church?
And my friend was like sure,yeah, tell me about him.
And I said he was short andshe's like that is probably not
why they canonized him.
(29:07):
And I was like great.
That's.
The only thing I know about himis he was short and she was
like, great, well, let's govisit the short state.
Now, in fairness, he was fourfoot five, like he was not.
He was not John Vianney short,he was like remarkably short, um
.
And I went to visit him and waslike, oh, okay, leopold Mundage
.
And I started reading his storyjust in the signs on the wall
(29:27):
and I was like, oh, oh, I lovehim.
Oh, I mean, like he's on mywater bottle.
Look, I like this right here.
Joan (29:33):
This is St Leopold Mundage .
Meg (29:34):
He's like top five best friends in the world.
Joan (29:36):
I think right now he comes in at number three Wow.
Meg (29:38):
Yeah, yeah, he was Croatian ethnically.
He grew up in I think it wasItaly at the time, but it's now
Slovenia and he was Felt soconvicted that God was calling
him to end the great schism.
Joan (29:59):
You know that division between the Eastern and the
Western church and at that pointwas 850 years old.
Meg (30:05):
He was like put me in coach .
Like I got it.
So he became a Capuchin andthey sent him to Italy and there
are like six OrthodoxChristians in Italy.
So he's like absolutely Like, Iwill obey, but I really think
God is calling me to this.
Will you send me back?
And they were like go to theconfessional.
And so he, like John Vianney,like John Francis Regis, would
(30:26):
spend 12, 14 hours in theconfessional every day and he
would spend three or four hourspraying every night for
reconciliation in the church andhe would console himself that
every confession that he heardwas a small act of that great
work of reconciliation.
But he remained utterly certainfor decades that God was
calling him to end the greatschism.
(30:46):
And he kept going to hissuperiors and they kept sending
him back to the confessional.
Four months before he died hewrote now I am certain that God
is going to use me to end thegreat schism.
And then he died.
And there is no epilogue to thestory.
Joan (31:00):
It's not like and on the anniversary of his death.
Meg (31:02):
The patriarch, no, like he died, period the end.
And I find it so encouragingbecause he died never having
experienced the fulfillment ofthis deep desire of his heart.
But he died happy, because whathe really wanted was Jesus,
what he really wanted wasfaithfulness.
And it's very easy to look atthese saints who prayed and
(31:22):
prayed and prayed and then gotwhat they wanted, and to begin
to fix our heart on answeredprayers instead of fixing our
heart on the one who answersprayers.
But Leopold Monaghan, I mean,he is one of my very best
friends because when I am deepin the middle of my pity parties
and I do love a good pity party, joan he comes and he sits next
to me and he lays his littlebitty head on my shoulder and he
(31:45):
says it is not okay, but God isstill good.
It is not okay, but God isstill good.
And we have saints like Godlover.
St Raphka Pietraszuba Arias isjust like yay, suffering I love
suffering Like a doctor cut outher eyeball and she was like
woohoo, I mean like a mess, um,and that's great that that
(32:07):
worked out for her.
But I need a saint who's goingto acknowledge that the Lord has
put a desire in my heart thathe has chosen not to fulfill.
Yeah, and that that is reallyhard.
Yeah, and that God is reallyhard.
Joan (32:19):
Yeah.
Meg (32:19):
And that God is still working in the midst of it and
through it.
Right, there was somethingabout his desire that the Lord
needed him to have and needednot to fulfill, like there was
work that was being done in himand in the world through that,
and maybe it was like genuinelydecades for him and God was
working in him, because Godnever uses us without doing good
(32:41):
for us as well.
But maybe it really was justthat I was going to break if I
didn't have a saint friend whoselife was a series of unanswered
prayers, because that, I mean,my life is so many unanswered
prayers and I sit with LeopoldMondage and he points me back to
(33:01):
Jesus.
Joan (33:02):
Yeah, and he teaches us not to waste those desires and
that suffering right.
Meg (33:07):
Yes.
Joan (33:08):
Okay, I'm not called to go end the Western schism, the way
I thought I was called, butI've been called in obedience
right?
That's a very difficult virtueIn obedience.
I'm going to hear theseconfessions.
Right, that's a very difficultvirtue in obedience.
I'm going to hear theseconfessions and I believe that
there is grace and I believethat God can use this, even if
it's not my plan and even ifit's not how I thought it was
going to be used.
(33:29):
I think I know I waste so muchsuffering and in those pity
parties and in that suffering Iforget that I could be offering
it for someone or I could bedoing good with it.
Jesus wants to do good with itand he can, um, and so that
beautiful lesson of when ourplan isn't the Lord's plan but
yet we have that desire in ourheart.
Um and his story in a sense isover.
(33:51):
But it's not in the grandscheme, Like maybe there is
going to be this greatreconciliation between the East
and the West on his feast day.
That is such a beautiful, thatis so encouraging.
I think we can hear that storyand be discouraged, and we
shouldn't be.
We should be encouraged as yousee, that encouragement that the
(34:12):
Lord is good.
Meg (34:14):
The Lord is good and that sometimes he is the one giving
you this desire, even though heintends not to fulfill it,
because that unfulfillment isdoing something because that
desire is doing something.
I pray frequently.
I say Lord, I want to want whatyou want me to want even if you
don't want me to have it,because for a while, I was like
(34:35):
well, lord just deliver me ofthese desires If you're not if
it's not your will to fulfillthem, deliver me of these
desires.
And then I was like no, no, Ilove what you do through the
desires that you give me thatyou do not intend to fulfill,
and I hate it too.
But, like, I have seen thisbear fruit and so I want to want
what you want me to want, evenif you don't want me to have it.
Joan (34:58):
That's a powerful and very difficult prayer, right Wow.
Meg (35:07):
And so much of it is because I went on random
pilgrimage to this random churchof this random saint that I
mean, maybe eventually I wouldhave heard about him, but I
don't think I would have reallydug into him.
There's nothing about him thatlike grabs me.
You know, there are a lot ofsaints that I'm just like.
I read their list of facts thatare not stories and I say okay
and I move on.
I think in order to love him,it was going to take pilgrimage
(35:28):
to encounter him in that waywhere I couldn't skim and then
look away.
Right, I had to really leaninto that and I mean I have
spoken about him, given talksabout him, dozens, maybe
hundreds of times.
He is in both of my saint books, like he is one of my dearest
friends, and it's because I wenton pilgrimage.
Joan (35:49):
So you know I'm a fan.
Yeah, the beauty of thatencounter and we talk a lot
about letting the Lord work inyour pilgrimage and not having
there are certain expectationsyou can go in with.
But if you go in ready to letthe Lord work with your
pilgrimage, that he's going tointroduce you to the people you
need to be introduced, whetherthey are canonized or whether
they're fellow pilgrims.
He's going to work through thatpilgrimage in a way you can't
(36:10):
even imagine.
If we're open and I think wecan be closed to that, but if
we're open to it he can doamazing things in that encounter
.
Meg (36:19):
Yes, I'm I'm really excited about our pilgrimage to South
Korea.
You guys should come with us,um, because there are so many
South Korean saints that I knowpeople are going to come away
with new best friends who I havenever heard of you know?
I mean, I think at this pointI've read all of their stories
once, but like, haven't retained, like didn't get excited about,
but like I don't know there'ssomething really special about
(36:42):
just the massive number thatwe're going to encounter.
Like it, it is very hard to getthis high.
A number of stories per squaremile, right, Like named saints
per square mile.
Italy can probably hang, yeah,but like actual stories per
square mile, italy can probablyhang Um, but like actual stories
(37:03):
per square mile, like I, Ireally should do the math, cause
this is now a fascinatingquestion to me.
But once you include all 103,124, 252 and that one venerable
um, there's a lot of people alot of stories, a lot of
personalities, a lot ofcircumstances.
Right, like there's one I can'tremember her name at the moment
but she, her dad, wanted tomarry her off to a non-Christian
(37:24):
.
So she just pretended her legsdidn't work for two years, like
like, who are you and why areyou my favorite, you know?
I mean, that's totally the kindof thing I would have done when
.
I was 17 years old.
And then finally he was likeall right, fine, don't marry
that guy.
And she's like, oh my gosh, mylegs work again.
Weird, you know.
Like I mean, it's that thatkind of personality that we see
(37:45):
in these stories that we'regoing to encounter when we find
these people.
Um, and I'm just, I'm soexcited to see the new
relationships and the newinspirations that the Lord is
making when you have so manyencounters in one 10 day period.
Joan (38:01):
Yeah, there's so long for everyone.
So the food, the whole.
We believe in a holistic viewof pilgrimage.
You have to experience, youknow everything I mean, joe.
Meg (38:12):
what could be more fun?
Joan (38:14):
So, as we wrap up, I would love for you to talk a little
bit about how people can findout more.
Like maybe there is someonelistening saying you know, I
don't really, I don't thinkthere's a saint for me, or I
agree with you.
I think the saints are plasterstatues or stained glass windows
that don't relate to me, orwhat would you.
And be sure to have a shamelessplug.
(38:35):
It's not so shameless, but howcould people find out more about
the saints?
What would you recommend?
Meg (38:40):
So you can read my books.
I've got two books on thesaints out.
One is called Saints Around theWorld.
It's 100 stories of saints from70 different countries
showcasing just an incrediblevariety of personality types and
states in life and familysituations and hobbies and joys
and struggles.
And that's a children's book sobeautiful illustrations.
(39:04):
But I always tell people it'sgood for ages 3 to 12 and then
18 and up 13 to 17, you're tooold for it, but at 18, you're
old enough for it again.
And then Pray for Us 75 Saintswho Sinned, suffered and
Struggled on their Way toHoliness Again highlights a
really diverse group of saints.
I would say most people mostlike serious practicing
(39:24):
Catholics who opened that bookwould maybe have heard of like
five that's awesome.
Lots of brand new friends, lotsof different circumstances.
They both have really goodindices where you can look up
mental illness or divorce orbullying, or scientists or
athletes, or courage.
I mean just like all kinds ofdifferent ways that you can
approach this search.
(39:45):
You can also go on my Instagramand look at my story highlights
.
I've got like black saints,Asian saints, Latino saints.
Especially if you have feltunderrepresented in your ethnic
background, We've got a saintfor that.
So those are the ways that youcan look up my resources.
I really recommend books by AnnBall.
She does a good job.
(40:05):
If you I don't remember the, wecan link it in the show notes.
Joan (40:10):
We will definitely link all this in the show notes.
Meg (40:12):
I wrote an article on my favorite saint books at one
point.
Oh, perfect, because a lot oftimes if you're just Googling
you're not going to find theright person and you're not
gonna find the story told right.
There's so many websites thatare just like oh, here's this
one public domain.
Three sentence right.
Piece of nonsense right or aquote that they never said.
(40:33):
Oh mercy, I feel so manyfeelings about that when you're
like no 16th century human wouldever have said something like
that, let alone a Carmelite.
Joan (40:41):
Come on.
Meg (40:43):
But I mean I understand, because so many of the resources
that we have are just so banal,like there's nothing exciting.
There's nothing interesting,there's nothing that points to
Jesus, there's nothing thatpoints to Jesus.
But I think if you feel thereis no saint who can speak to me,
it's because you're notlistening to the right stories,
(41:08):
reading the right stories.
So I would keep digging, and ifyou come on pilgrimage with me,
then you can just pick my brainon the saints all the time.
I don't always respond toInstagram messages, but if
you're sitting next to me on thebus I really feel like I will
answer your question.
Joan (41:22):
Well, there's the answer and we will have that in the
show notes as well, if you wantto join Meg on pilgrimage.
One thing I really love aboutthe saints book is the um, the
stickers that you get to addwhen they're canonized and
beatified.
I think it just reminds us thatwe're in the middle of these
stories and that, like, theLord's still working and the
Lord's still speaking, and youknow, like when this book was
(41:44):
published they were venerable orbeatified, and that changes and
the church grows and our bodyof Christ grows, and it's really
exciting.
Meg (41:53):
You know, it's great because St Margaret of Costello
was a medieval saint and she wasbeatified hundreds of years ago
and she was a blessed throughthe 15th century and the 16th
century and the 17th century andthe 18th century until 2021,
the week after our book went toprint.
(42:14):
Her cause didn't move at all andthen she was suddenly canonized
with no advance notice, and sothe book was not up to date for
even one minute and I was like,oh, I got to figure out a way
that I am not devastated bycanonizations.
This is not.
So we came up with this stickerconcept and I tell people it is
the world's slowest interactivebook, because every several
(42:35):
years you may get to put asticker in.
So if you had a first edition,you have put in two stickers.
Joan (42:41):
Now there was one recently right, yeah, because it's on
Instagram.
Meg (42:44):
Yeah, st Maria Antonia de Paz y Figueroa.
Yes, she's called Mama Antula.
She was the first Argentinianwoman to be canonized, very
exciting.
Yeah, and like everyone waslike oh, I'm going to put my
sticker in.
Joan (42:55):
So not only are you not devastated by canonizations,
it's super exciting.
Meg (42:58):
Exactly it gets even more exciting and people send videos
of their kids putting thesticker on and I'm like, all
right, see you in seven yearswhen this happens again, but it
unites us with that universalchurch.
Joan (43:08):
That, um, I remember going to a beatification.
I was just in Rome so I went.
I think it was a canonizationof like seven people, and don't
ask me who these seven peoplewere.
I was just there because it wasa canonization and the Pope was
there and it was exciting andit was lovely and I probably
should look up who those sevenpeople were.
Meg (43:22):
But it just I know that's terrible.
Okay, that's what I'm going todo, okay.
Joan (43:28):
I'm going to try to remember what day that was, um,
but it's just one of thosethings that we can be so
disconnected from the universalchurch, and this is just yet
another way to unite us to theuniversal church, to the Holy
Father, to our best friends.
Meg (43:39):
Well, and just thinking about all of these little
American kids who were soexcited.
And nobody else was excitedexcept.
Argentina right, and so it waslike Argentina and this like
random subset of Americanchildren who were like in
solidarity in that moment rightand they'll probably never meet
each other, but like they werecelebrating on the same day.
Joan (44:01):
I love it.
Oh, the saints are so good.
So we'll link everything in theshow notes and thank you so
much, Meg, for joining us, and Ican't wait to see what new best
friends people discover throughyour books.
The books would make greatconfirmation presence.
They'd make great sacramentpresence.
You know, don't let your, youknow, encourage your confirmandi
child to pick some saint thatthey discover and for the first
(44:25):
time.
I would really encourage that so, but thanks for joining us, Meg
.
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
God bless listeners, you wantto share this episode,
especially with a friend whomight not really know much about
the saints.
Appreciate much about thesaints, who need to meet the
saints, share this episode withthem and let's enlarge that
knowledge of the body of Christ.
God bless.
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