June 17, 2025 • 34 mins
What makes St. Peter’s Basilica more than just the biggest church in the world? In this Jubilee Year episode, Joan talks with Fr. Matthew Kuhn, a former tour guide, about the sacred architecture, deep symbolism, and unexpected beauty that make St. Peter’s not just visually grandiose, but full of meaning.
They discuss everything from the Pietà to the Baldacchino, and from the foot-worn statue of St. Peter to the quiet presence of Eastern saints in the West. But more than a list of facts, this episode is about how stone becomes catechesis, and how the Basilica draws you into something larger than yourself. It is a guide for seeing with more than just your eyes.
Fr. Kuhn reflects on how the basilica’s very design communicates the mystery of the Church through proportion, beauty, and balance. He explains how features like the dome, the Baldacchino, and the Chair of Peter are not just visually impressive, but spiritually intentional, drawing the pilgrim’s attention toward the Eucharist and the communion of saints.
As the Church continues in its Jubilee Year, this episode also serves as a spiritual primer for anyone making (or dreaming of making) a pilgrimage to Rome. This conversation will help you enter more deeply into what St. Peter’s was meant to be: a witness to the living faith of the Church.
For photos, history, and more about the basilica itself, visit the official site: basilicasanpietro.va/en
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joan Watson (00:01):
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all "in via" on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, Joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips, and
learn more about our Catholicfaith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, Rome, or Santiago, Healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun, or in the middle of your
workday.
Let's visit St.
Peter's Basilica.
In this episode, in our specialJubilee season of In Via, we
are speaking with Father MatthewKuhn, who is a priest of the
(00:44):
Diocese of St.
Cloud, and, prior to becoming apriest, he was in seminary in
Rome and led tours of St.
Peter's Basilica.
So, he's going to tell us allabout some of the jewels in the
largest church in the world.
So you are in Rome right now,which is kind of fun.
You lived in Rome, you studiedin Rome and now you're back in
(01:05):
Rome, but just for a time.
Father Matthew Kuhn (01:08):
Yeah, just for a couple of months, for a
sabbatical, just a visit thistime.
Joan Watson (01:14):
When you knew you were going to go back for your
sabbatical and you were thinkingabout your time in Rome,
studying in Rome, what were youmost looking forward to?
Thinking, okay, I'm going to beback because living in Rome is
different than just visiting fora week, so what were you most
looking forward to?
Father Matthew Kuhn (01:30):
Gosh, there's so much beautiful art,
the people, the food.
There's a lot of things that Ilove about Rome, that I love
about Italian culture as a whole, but Roman specific.
It is like no other city onearth.
It's one of the most walkablecities in the world, it is so
friendly, yeah it just.
(01:52):
There's so many things aboutRome that if you haven't been,
it's hard to describe.
But once you've been so like wewere just joking off air about
you know, catching a draft andsome of the local superstitions
here and how they're soprevalent in the society and yet
they're so endearing.
The way that Italian peoplethink and behave, and
(02:17):
particularly just the spirit ofhospitality in this city is so
nice.
So, for example, coming back tothe same campus where I went to
seminary, about two thirds ofthe employees are still here,
and now I get to hear about thegrandkids and catch up and it's
like I never left.
So, that real sense ofuniversality is lived out in the
(02:39):
people.
The city may be eternal, but weare not, and those little
things that do change just makeworth visiting over and over
again.
Joan Watson (02:49):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
Well, I want"par jump in totalk about our subject.
Today we're going to talk alittle bit about St.
Peter's Basilica, because youwere a guide there when you
studied there, and so I knowit's a little hard in audio and
our restrictions of podcasts togive somebody a tour when they
can't see what we're talkingabout.
But I just want to give peoplekind of a taste, especially if
(03:10):
they've never been there, forthe importance of St.
Peter's, but just the treasuresthat are in St.
Peter's.
Most people know it's thebiggest church in the world, but
what do I expect?
What can I expect when I gothere and what treasures lie
behind those doors?
And so could you just start usoff by you know, like, if
someone's never been to StPeter's, you know what's special
about it.
What does it look like when Iwalk through those doors?
(03:33):
What can I expect?
I guess.
Father Matthew Kuhn (03:34):
Okay, so the first thing to understand is
it is the parish church of theworld.
It's not the cathedral of Rome.
It's a church for the world.
It always has been intended tobe for the whole universal
church because it's acelebration of the one apostle
who kind of ties it all together, St.
Peter.
It's built over his grave.
(03:56):
You heard a lot about that inthe Scavi section with Father
Sidlick, so I won't reiteratetoo much of that.
So for 2,000 years, we've beengoing to this place to celebrate
Peter; and you walk in, andyou're not in a church, you're
in a shopping mall of churches.
That's the easiest way to thinkabout it.
So there's 25 altars on themain floor.
(04:17):
There's 12 more chapels in thegrottos below.
There are dozens and dozens offuneral monuments, the graves of
these famous saints that you'veheard of, some you've never
heard of.
It's awe-inspiring but notoverwhelming.
Right when it was designed, thearchitects that built it first
(04:40):
off, there's going to be somevery familiar names that people
will know just off the top oftheir head.
They've heard of people likeRaphael Sanzio, one of the
people who helped design thestructure itself, and Bernini,
the one who designed thecolonnades and the square.
So, like your first impressionof the place, the thing you see
(05:01):
on all the keychains, that'sBernini everywhere.
And the big dome ofMichelangelo, the Michelangelo,
the Ninja Turtle himself,Michelangelo Buonarroti.
He designed this dome that justdominated the skyline.
It still does today.
It's one of the mostrecognizable skylines in the
(05:21):
world.
But when you're right up there,as huge as it is, it's not
overwhelming, because it wasbuilt proportionately.
So you walk into this giganticchurch, and because all the art
is proportional the light sizeon the ground level and then
scaling up as it goes furtheraway it all looks human-sized.
(05:43):
So, from the 24-foot statues atthe top to the life-size
statues at your level, your eyeis tricked by that.
Until you look up you say ooh,those are people walking around
above those letters up there andthe letters are bigger than the
people.
So those are eight foot tallletters.
(06:06):
So that connection of theawe-inspiring, the transcendent
and the human, it's embodied inthis basilica.
And that was one of thoseRenaissance artistic choices
that was unlike everything thathad come before.
It was unlike the Gothic.
They weren't trying tooverwhelm you with how many rows
(06:26):
of columns you saw.
Instead of pillar after pillarafter pillar, you have two
pillars.
Now, they're gigantic, colossal, multi-pillars built together.
But your brain says one, two,not overwhelming.
And then you look around andthere's all these different side
(06:46):
altars, sure, but they're allkind of spaced out.
There's kind of blank space inbetween.
That doesn't draw your eye, sothat, unlike the Renaissance,
the early Renaissance art andthe art that came before it,
it's not image on top of imageon top of image.
It's things that are bite-sized, but they help you to focus.
(07:10):
Now you can look up into, forexample, Michelangelo's dome,
and you can see saint aftersaint after saint, all in the
panoply around, and so, if youwant that, you can find it.
But most of what's going todraw your eye is the
"baldacchino" over the"confessio" that says: While
you're right here, peter is here.
Joan Watson (07:32):
Yeah, there's a piece there that you might not
expect, and it's because of thatsymmetry.
And if you're overwhelmed, it'sbecause of the immensity and
the human emotions of beingthere, I think, are more
overwhelming that the structureis not overwhelming, despite its
size.
Father Matthew Kuhn (07:46):
Honestly ,yeah.
Especially in the Jubilee yearwith all the crowds that are
there.
The people themselves are partof the experience when you are
being jostled by literallymillions of people this year.
I mean, they're expecting90-some million people to visit
the Basilica this year.
Joan Watson (08:06):
From all over the world.
Father Matthew Kuhn (08:07):
From all over the world.
Look out for the nuns.
They are best with the elbowsand it's their house, they know
it, so they will get between you.
Hold on to your tour mates.
It's really the universality ofthe church in living color.
Joan Watson (08:27):
Yeah, yeah, I'm glad.
So two things you mentioned.
Number one the "baldacchino",and I want to come back to that
because people are like, wait,what did Father say?
So I want to come back to that.
But you mentioned right awaythis idea of like being a
shopping mall, like this ideathat there are lots of altars.
And I think for many Americans,maybe not other Europeans, but
for many Americans that might besomething new, because my
parish church has the high altarand maybe a freestanding altar
(08:49):
in front of it, right.
So most of us just are used tohaving this one altar where mass
is celebrated and not many sidealtars.
So can you talk a little bitabout that?
Because that's just one, Ithink one of the most unique
things for an Americanexperience.
Father Matthew Kuhn (09:02):
Yeah, so to start with the architectural
style itself, so it's called abasilica from the "court of the
king, right, the "Basileus" wasthe king, and so he had this
long hallway with a curve at theend we call the apse.
That would project his voicedown the hallway.
So while you were waiting inline to meet the king, you got
(09:23):
to hear his reverberating voice,you approached his justice and
you were in awe and majestybefore this great person.
And that long hall with acurved end became the standard
for Roman legal buildings, andtherefore, even their temples
had a lot of that same structure.
Now, when Christians startedbuilding churches, when we
(09:45):
started making basilica churches, we Christianized it.
We put in a transept, right, soyou have the vertical and now
you have this horizontal bar onit as well.
Well, what are you going to dowith those two sides?
Just stack in more chairs?
No, now you have an opportunityfor an extra altar at each of
those ends.
So now you have your main focalpoint in the center, which
should say Peter's Basilica, andwhere the cross comes together,
(10:09):
you have the papal altar.
On the back wall, in the apse,you have the chair of St.
Peter, that symbol of theuniversal connection of the
apostles with their head.
They're first among theapostles, Peter, and then on the
side chapels you have otheraltars.
So, for example, the one sidealtar that they use for daily
(10:30):
mass is the St Joseph altar, andright next to him are the
graves of two other apostles,Simon and Jude, and so there are
The one of those two is right atthe closest point in the
basilica to where Peter wasactually crucified.
So on that side altar, you havea celebration of the martyrdom
of Peter himself, and an imageof Peter being crucified upside
(10:53):
down on his cross.
So somebody who's never heardthe story of Peter before can
come in, go to that side altarand not, you know, just pay
their respects to Jesus and theBlessed Sacrament, but also see
that image and go hey, why isthat guy upside down?
Oh, that's how Peter was killed.
Peter was crucified, yeah, butnot like Jesus.
And then you get to hear moreof the story.
(11:15):
It's a catechism in stone.
That's another one of thebeautiful ways to describe it.
And then, because there's somuch history in this Basilica, I
mean you talk about dozens ofsaints.
I don't want to throw numbersat you because I get conflicting
reports.
(11:38):
So from the Vatican's own StPeter's Basilica website, right
Basilicasanpietro.
va, 25 altars on the main floor,12 chapels below.
Okay.
So if you bear that in mind,those are 25 individual places
celebrating a significant figure, whether that was a pope or a
(11:59):
saint, or one who was both.
So in the case of Pope St.
John Paul II, he's got his ownaltar on the main floor, now
very popular.
The Polish people, they lovehim.
His altar is always busy.
But you have other greats inhistory, like literal greats,
like Pope St.
Gregory the Great has his altar.
Pope St.
Leo the Great has his altarwith a big bas-relief of him
(12:22):
rebuking Attila the Hun, one ofmy personal favorites.
Everything down to some of thefuneral monuments don't have
their own altar but, like myfavorite funeral monument, the
funeral monument of PopeAlexander VII is over a doorway.
It's the fire exit out thesacristy side.
(12:43):
So it was my favorite doorbecause that was the door I got
to come into for liturgies inthe Vatican when I had the
special golden ticket.
Yeah but then you come inunderneath and you're like oh,
what is that?
There's a foot.
No, wait, no, that's theartwork of this beautiful
funeral monument, also byBernini the skeleton of death
with the hourglass (13:06):
Remember you will die.
Joan Watson (13:09):
Again, that catechism in stone.
Every piece of art is teachingus something and reminding us of
something.
Father Matthew Kuhn (13:15):
And not just teaching you, but drawing
your mind to the transcendent.
So Bernini made granite andmarble look like cloth.
You're coming through thebedclothes of this guy who's
kneeling down in prayer at hisbedside, you know, remembering
death so that he'll be a goodpope.
And that's not a curtain,that's stone, and it looks soft
(13:41):
500 years later.
It's so impressive, but it'snot overwhelming.
Joan Watson (13:46):
Yeah, yeah.
(14:10):
So we have all these differentaltars.
Sometimes you know, like thebig mosaic above the altars to
one saint, but then there'sanother saint buried underneath,
and so you could spend daysthere and still discover
something new.
But I want to talk a little bitabout this baldacchino, because
you threw out this great wordand people probably can picture
it in their head if they knowwhat it is.
(14:31):
But they might not know whatthe baldacchino is all about,
but I bet they can picture itonce you start describing it.
Father Matthew Kuhn (14:37):
So the best place to start is if you've
ever done a Eucharisticprocession outdoors Typically
they will carry over themonstrance they'll have some
kind of a canopy, okay, so thinkof the baldacchino as the
canopy over the Eucharist.
Now it does two things.
Number one if you have anoutdoor altar, the literally
keeps you out of the rain andthe sun.
(14:57):
So that's nice, keep the oldpriest healthy.
But the other thing that itdoes is it draws your attention.
It says, hey, focus on this.
So everything on the walls isstone and mosaic.
(15:19):
So the mosaics are the littlepieces of glass set in plaster
to make what was at one time apainting into something
permanent and enduring, right sothat that most of what you're
looking at is hard stone.
And then in the midst of that,all of a sudden you have this
big metal thing and the bronzeis again It's different texture,
it's covered in vines and beesand living things that again
(15:40):
pull you in, and it's got theseswirling Jewish-style columns
that are architecturally andartistically different from
everything around it, againdrawing your eye in.
And then it's this highcontrast of colors.
They've just cleaned it up.
So when we were here lastMarch, we were so mad because
the baldacchino was covered inscaffolding and like, oh, we
(16:02):
don't get to see it.
But then this year, just beforewe got here, they opened it up
and it is stunning.
The gold of the polished bronzeagainst the black of the matte
finish.
The contrast there, the blackand gold.
Really it focuses you and itdraws you in and says this is
(16:24):
special, what's under this?
And if you look up in the dome,you have the image of God, the
Father.
You look under the canopy ofthe baldacchino and you have the
Holy Spirit dove, and what'sunderneath that?
The altar.
So you have the Father, theSpirit and the Son, all pointing
(16:46):
down to the rock on whichChrist said "I will build my
church.
We have the whole presence ofthe Trinity, supported by the
humanity of the saints, and itall comes together in a place
where we gather around thethrone of God.
Right, the "worthy are thosethat are welcome to the supper
(17:08):
of the Lamb".
So when Jesus said to Peter,"feed my sheep".
And 2,000 years later we'regoing to Peter to receive the
Eucharist from his successor,all of what we believe comes
into focus in those moments.
(17:29):
And when you see people treatingPope Francis like a rock star
he is an old man in a wheelchair, right, he is not impressive in
any worldly sense and say aprayer for him.
We're going to have the rosaryhere at nine o'clock, a vigil
for Pope Francis.
And it's so beautiful becauseit's nine o'clock at night on a
rainy day in Rome and people arelining up to sit in folding
(17:52):
chairs in St.
Peter's Square and pray therosary in Italian.
It's not going to be comfy,it's not going to be pleasant in
any earthly sense.
Sure, you might see some famousperson while you're there, some
cardinal, so-and-so but you'realso going to be elbow to elbow
with people from Korea, peoplefrom Africa, people from every
(18:17):
part of humanity will be presentthere Catholics, non-catholics.
It's really beautiful.
So one of my favorites in StPeter's Basilica, one of the
people that's buried there, isSt.
Josephat, right.
He's one of the bishops of oneof the Eastern churches, and St.
Josephat was killed because hewanted to bring his Eastern
Orthodox congregation into unionwith Rome again.
(18:39):
That wasn't real popular in theEast at the time.
So he's there.
He's buried here in St Peter'sin the West, even though he is
an Eastern bishop, and he'streated with the same dignity
and respect as popes, and he's,of course, right next to where
they hear confessions.
So the one who reconciled Eastand West is there where you can
(19:03):
be reconciled with Jesus.
Isn't that perfect?
I love all these connections.
Joan Watson (19:07):
That's the crazy thing about being at St.
Peter's is if you know churchhistory or you know anything
about the saints and you'rekneeling there and you look up
and you're like, "wait a minute,that's wait, that's the tomb of
Joseph at?
" And then you look over andyou're like "that's Gregory
Nazianzus and that's".
You know these people that weregiants in the church and are
here under this roof.
So it's, it's, it's, yes, it'sthe tomb of Peter and he's under
the high altar.
(19:28):
And there's somethingincredibly poignant with having
the successor of Peter celebratemass on that high altar,
knowing that underneath are thebones of St.
Peter.
But then you're also surroundedby this church history and Leo
the Great and Gregory the Greatand Pius X and Joseph at, and
yeah.
Father Matthew Kuhn (19:42):
And you can go down the main aisle and find
your local cathedral, whereverits size, you know, is marked
off from the back wall.
So in the central aisle andthis is something about those
superhuman things right, it's so.
It's, it's almost petty really.
It's like, haha, we're biggerthan your church.
So, like, you go down themarble floor and you'll find
(20:04):
this brass insert that will say,for example, St.
Patrick's Cathedral, New York,and then you look back and
there's another hundred yards ofSt.
Peter's Basilica after that,like, oh, I thought St Patrick's
was big.
Then I came here and you lookup at the Baldacchino again.
Okay, so the Baldacchino is inthe central under the canister
(20:31):
of the dome.
Okay, and when you look at thatspace and you try to think how
big is this really?
And you realize you could fitthe space shuttle with its
booster rockets and launch padall under that dome without
scraping the sides.
The Statue of Liberty would notbe able to reach the ceiling
with her torch.
Joan Watson (20:50):
That's crazy, yeah, and again it doesn't seem like
that when you're in therebecause of that unity and that
symmetry, it's incredible.
You're completely thrown offthat sense, and so it's good
when you're there to think aboutthose things and to try to
picture that, because it givesyou that immensity.
But could you speak a littlebit about the altar of the chair
(21:11):
as well?
You had mentioned that earlieron the back wall by Bernini.
Father Matthew Kuhn (21:13):
Sure, yep, well, we just had the feast of
the chair of St.
Peter.
And again, this is what sets itapart from St.
John in the Lateran, which isthe Cathedral of Rome, of the
Diocese of Rome, because theHoly Father is also the Bishop
of the Diocese of Rome.
But what St.
Peter's Basilica represents isthat universality, and the
monument on the wall is a chair.
(21:36):
It is a reliquary of an olderchair that was believed to be
from St.
Peter himself.
I'm not going to dive into theveracity or non-veracity of that
, that's for people much smarterthan me to figure out, but what
it represents is the connectionof the universal church,
(21:56):
through Peter, to the HolySpirit, because above this
beautiful bronze chair set inthe wall is what looks like a
stained glass window of the HolySpirit.
Now, it's not glass, it'sactually thin slices of
alabaster stone, right.
This predates stained glass, ifyou can imagine that this was
(22:17):
the first of an art style.
And that Holy Spirit window.
There's a cloud emanating fromthat window.
That is what is supporting thechair.
If you look, the chair is kindof floating in the midair over
the altar, and there are fourbishops who are tied by ribbons
to the chair, but they're notholding up the chair right.
So two from the East, two fromthe West: Athanasius, Ambrose,
(22:38):
Augustine, and I forget who thefourth one is.
Oh, I hate being put on thespot.
So four bishops, two from theEast, two from the West, and
they represent the universalityof the church.
And then you pair that with, upabove the words that are going
around the Basilica, which isthe confession of Peter right:
(23:02):
"Peter, do you love me?
Feed my sheep".
And when what's in Latin in thewords gets to that center point
over the Holy Spirit windowfrom the West on the left, in
Latin it switches over to Greekfor a little while.
Joan Watson (23:20):
Oh, I didn't know that
Father Matthew Kuhn (23:21):
You never noticed that before, have you?
It's so seamless, but theletters switch to Greek for the
rest of the apse to show "Hey,you Greek speakers, you Eastern
churches, you're still part ofus.
This is for you too", and it'sthe Holy Spirit that holds the
whole thing together.
Joan Watson (23:37):
Beautiful.
That's such an important partabout the chair, because I was
actually I heard somebody givinga tour one time and they talked
about how the bishops areholding up the chair and I said
no, no, no, no, no.
They've gotten it completelywrong.
That's the beauty of it thatthe Holy Spirit gives the
authority.
Father Matthew Kuhn (23:55):
Can we talk about the humanity of that
moment, though I mean becauseI've given a lot of St.
Peter's tours and I've saidwrong things.
I was fed bad intel, so tospeak.
Some of the stuff we wereworking from just wasn't
accurate, and I've been on manytours since then and I've
learned and I've improved myknowledge of it and my
appreciation for it.
So don't let something likethat that somebody said no,
(24:20):
that's not accurate Don't letthat get in the way.
There are misunderstandings outthere, and there are bad tours.
Just remember you can always goback to the source.
So BasilicaSanPietro.
va, that is the officialBasilica of St.
Peter web page, and not onlydoes it have fantastic pictures,
(24:43):
but it even has littleinformational pages.
Okay.
So, for example, I can look up,like I just did, St.
Ambrose, S t.
Augustine, St.
Athanasius, and St.
John Chrysostom are the fourbishops tied to the chair, right
.
So this was again commissionedby Pope Alexander VI, who I
(25:06):
mentioned.
His funeral monumentcommissioned Bernini to complete
that piece of work.
So two Greeks and two Latins,and these giants of the church
are all tied to the history,right, they're all bishops,
they're all successors of theapostles, but they all still
(25:27):
depend on Peter.
So, even though none of themwere popes, none of them were
the successors of Peter directlyas bishops of Rome, but they
were all Wait a minute, no, theyweren't even all bishops.
(25:50):
Yeah, John Chrysostom was abishop too.
Yeah, yeah.
They are all bishops, yeah, yeah.
Athanasius and Alexander, JohnChrysostom, Constantinople,
Augustine, Hippo, Ambrose, Milan, yeah, all bishops, sorry.
Joan Watson (26:04):
There's just wearing the miter, because of
the West and the East, I thinkprobably.
Father Matthew Kuhn (26:09):
Yeah, yeah, so different styles and
different times.
So there again.
So, like we have these imagesof popes that are all dressed in
red, and so people who don'tknow say, oh, those must just be
cardinals.
Like, well, no, up until theDominican pope, they all wore
red.
And just because this Dominicanis really attached to his white
(26:30):
habit, he kind of changed thestyle, and the guys after him
said, yeah, we kind of like thewhite, but they kept the red
shoes.
No, this is important, theykept the red shoes because they
walk the path of martyrdom.
And this was before Gucci was athing.
So you know, it's not justbecause the red shoes are Gucci,
(26:52):
it's it again There's thosethings, there's those layers of
history that, when you peel themback, you appreciate it more,
even if the initial story is isvery human, like, no, he just
cause he, he was a dominican.
Well, but why do the Dominicanswear white?
Well, it's their devotion toour Blessed Mother, and that
they're striving for that purity, that clarity of reason, and
(27:13):
that purity of heart.
That is the, the, the reasonfor choosing white for the habit
.
Well, doesn't the papacy strivefor that same kind of teaching
clarity, that same aspect oflife?
Yeah, as long as we don't losethe connection to the road of
the martyrs.
Joan Watson (27:31):
Yes, yeah, I love that.
That's what they're called too.
I know we could talk for hoursabout this, and so I know we
don't have hours to talk aboutit.
I'm going to put you on thespot.
Could you give us kind of a feweither can't miss things to see
, or maybe your favorite place?
Father Matthew Kuhn (27:48):
Well, I can't believe we've talked this
long about St.
Peter's Basilica and we haven'tmentioned the Pietà.
That is the one can't- miss-itpiece of art in the Basilica,
hands down.
Michelangelo's earliestmasterpiece.
So before he did anything elsefor the Basilica, he did this
(28:09):
altar piece for a side altar ina different church and it was so
famous they had to bring it toSt.
Peter's, because everybodywould come to Rome and they say,
well, but where's the Pietà?
Okay, bring it over here,they're all going to want to see
it.
Let's just put it in the placethey're all going to anyway.
So you have the image of Maryholding the body of Jesus after
he's been taken down from thecross, and the serenity of
(28:31):
Mary's face accepting in hercompassion the cost of our
salvation, so her participationin the passion of Christ,
receiving His body into her arms.
And then it's up on this littlepedestal above the altar, and
it was a specific white marblechosen by Michelangelo to match
(28:55):
the white of the bread of thehost.
So when the priest at the altarraises the body of Christ: this
is my body which will be givenup for you and he holds up the
host, the host melds into thebody of Jesus in Mary's arms.
And it's right there, and youcan see it behind some very
(29:16):
protective glass now, thanks tosome unfortunate accidents of
history, but it's right there asyou walk in.
So you come through the holydoor.
We're in the Jubilee year,you're going to enter through
the holy door and right thefirst thing you meet when you
come into the arms of motherchurch is Mary, the model and
mother of the church.
So she's the one who welcomesyou, says here's my son.
(29:37):
This is what you're really herefor.
You think you're here to seeall this art, you' re here for
Jesus, don't forget.
So that's the first, don't missa thing.
The second one is that funeralmonument that I mentioned of
Pope Alexander VII.
The third one not to be missed,um, because it is just, it is
so, so typical of the Italianpeople, is the bronze statue of
(30:02):
Saint Peter.
Now you can't go up and touchit anymore, but for centuries
people came to Saint Peter's andthey would, because the towns
are very tactile people, theylike to touch things.
They would rub their hands onthe feet of this, of this statue
of Saint Peter, and it's beengoing on for so long that Peter
(30:22):
has no toes left.
Human hands wore away bronze.
That's how many people havereached out in faith to touch an
image, just an image, of thisgreat saint um, and that's you
know.
You can call it superstition,but when you meet the Italian
(30:44):
people, they have theirsuperstitions.
This is different.
This is that real, "I want tohold you" tactile faith.
That, has to be honest, madeRome such a good place to have a
place like St.
Peter's.
You have a people for whomhospitality is the cultural
(31:08):
central point, and these are thepeople welcoming us to this
great church.
Not every culture would share aplace like this, but they love
it.
They put it on their coins.
You can't "welcome to Rome andthen they imagine like, if you
speak a foreign language andthey don't understand what
you're asking, they'll probablyjust point you to Saint Peters,
(31:29):
because that's probably whatyou're asking, um, and then
they'll say sempre diritto, justkeep going forward.
Joan Watson (31:35):
I remember the first time I went to Saint
Peters to touch his foot, itjust it really felt like my
pilgrimage had I'd made it like.
It felt like kind of thatcrowning moment, praying it is
too, absolutely, but that justseemed to like cap the
pilgrimage.
Father Matthew Kuhn (31:49):
Like okay, like any good penance in
confession, you should be ableto know when you've accomplished
it.
Joan Watson (31:54):
Yes!
Father Matthew Kuhn (31:55):
So when you've touched the foot, you've
made it to Peter.
Yeah smart calls.
You know we want to have smartcalls, um, so don't overlook the
, the experience as a whole.
I would say that's anotherthing that people, uh, fail to
do.
They come and they want to getpictures of everything.
Put down the camera.
(32:15):
Take it all in.
So after you see the particularmonuments you want to see and
you visited these great saints,and you see the particular
monuments you want to see andyou visited these great saints
and you said your prayers andyou lit your candles and all of
that good stuff, just stop andwatch the faithful and look at
(32:36):
the sea of people who have allcome, whether they know it or
not, to have an encounter withGod, and those that come with
great understanding you'll seethem weeping.
And those that have absolutelyinnocent faith you'll see them
weeping too.
And those in the middle whowere too smart to weep and were
(32:57):
not smart enough to weep.
We need to take it all in andjust appreciate vicariously
through those who get it eitherat the gut level or at the brain
level.
Um, there's something specialhere.
Joan Watson (33:14):
Amen.
Thank you, father.
Father Matthew Kuhn (33:17):
Thank you!
Joan Watson (33:18):
That's yeah, you've said it all, right, there.
Father Matthew Kuhn (33:22):
Great.
Joan Watson (33:22):
Thank you.
Thanks for joining us and Ihope you've made everybody want
to go to St Peter's.
But we will also put thatwebsite in the show notes so
that people can kind ofinvestigate for themselves and
learn for themselves, becausethere is the riches that are
there.
Father Matthew Kuhn (33:36):
Well, what they need to do is call Verso
and get over here.
Well, that's what they need todo.
Joan Watson (33:41):
There's still time before the Jubilee year is over
too.
Still time so well.
Thank you so much, father.
Father Matthew Kuhn (33:51):
I appreciate you all, that you all
do Appreciate you.
You take care.
Joan Watson (33:53):
G od bless.
Do you want to experience thishistoric event in the life of
the church for yourself?
Whether you want to take agroup or you're just an
individual looking for a trip,Verso Ministries can make that
dream a reality.
Visit versoministriescom slashjubilee for all our jubilee
dates and for more information.
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all "in via" on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, Joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips, and
learn more about our Catholicfaith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, Rome, or Santiago, Healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun, or in the middle of your
workday.
Let's visit St.
Peter's Basilica.
In this episode, in our specialJubilee season of In Via, we
are speaking with Father MatthewKuhn, who is a priest of the
(00:44):
Diocese of St.
Cloud, and, prior to becoming apriest, he was in seminary in
Rome and led tours of St.
Peter's Basilica.
So, he's going to tell us allabout some of the jewels in the
largest church in the world.
So you are in Rome right now,which is kind of fun.
You lived in Rome, you studiedin Rome and now you're back in
(01:05):
Rome, but just for a time.
Father Matthew Kuhn (01:08):
Yeah, just for a couple of months, for a
sabbatical, just a visit thistime.
Joan Watson (01:14):
When you knew you were going to go back for your
sabbatical and you were thinkingabout your time in Rome,
studying in Rome, what were youmost looking forward to?
Thinking, okay, I'm going to beback because living in Rome is
different than just visiting fora week, so what were you most
looking forward to?
Father Matthew Kuhn (01:30):
Gosh, there's so much beautiful art,
the people, the food.
There's a lot of things that Ilove about Rome, that I love
about Italian culture as a whole, but Roman specific.
It is like no other city onearth.
It's one of the most walkablecities in the world, it is so
friendly, yeah it just.
(01:52):
There's so many things aboutRome that if you haven't been,
it's hard to describe.
But once you've been so like wewere just joking off air about
you know, catching a draft andsome of the local superstitions
here and how they're soprevalent in the society and yet
they're so endearing.
The way that Italian peoplethink and behave, and
(02:17):
particularly just the spirit ofhospitality in this city is so
nice.
So, for example, coming back tothe same campus where I went to
seminary, about two thirds ofthe employees are still here,
and now I get to hear about thegrandkids and catch up and it's
like I never left.
So, that real sense ofuniversality is lived out in the
(02:39):
people.
The city may be eternal, but weare not, and those little
things that do change just makeworth visiting over and over
again.
Joan Watson (02:49):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
Well, I want"par jump in totalk about our subject.
Today we're going to talk alittle bit about St.
Peter's Basilica, because youwere a guide there when you
studied there, and so I knowit's a little hard in audio and
our restrictions of podcasts togive somebody a tour when they
can't see what we're talkingabout.
But I just want to give peoplekind of a taste, especially if
(03:10):
they've never been there, forthe importance of St.
Peter's, but just the treasuresthat are in St.
Peter's.
Most people know it's thebiggest church in the world, but
what do I expect?
What can I expect when I gothere and what treasures lie
behind those doors?
And so could you just start usoff by you know, like, if
someone's never been to StPeter's, you know what's special
about it.
What does it look like when Iwalk through those doors?
(03:33):
What can I expect?
I guess.
Father Matthew Kuhn (03:34):
Okay, so the first thing to understand is
it is the parish church of theworld.
It's not the cathedral of Rome.
It's a church for the world.
It always has been intended tobe for the whole universal
church because it's acelebration of the one apostle
who kind of ties it all together, St.
Peter.
It's built over his grave.
(03:56):
You heard a lot about that inthe Scavi section with Father
Sidlick, so I won't reiteratetoo much of that.
So for 2,000 years, we've beengoing to this place to celebrate
Peter; and you walk in, andyou're not in a church, you're
in a shopping mall of churches.
That's the easiest way to thinkabout it.
So there's 25 altars on themain floor.
(04:17):
There's 12 more chapels in thegrottos below.
There are dozens and dozens offuneral monuments, the graves of
these famous saints that you'veheard of, some you've never
heard of.
It's awe-inspiring but notoverwhelming.
Right when it was designed, thearchitects that built it first
(04:40):
off, there's going to be somevery familiar names that people
will know just off the top oftheir head.
They've heard of people likeRaphael Sanzio, one of the
people who helped design thestructure itself, and Bernini,
the one who designed thecolonnades and the square.
So, like your first impressionof the place, the thing you see
(05:01):
on all the keychains, that'sBernini everywhere.
And the big dome ofMichelangelo, the Michelangelo,
the Ninja Turtle himself,Michelangelo Buonarroti.
He designed this dome that justdominated the skyline.
It still does today.
It's one of the mostrecognizable skylines in the
(05:21):
world.
But when you're right up there,as huge as it is, it's not
overwhelming, because it wasbuilt proportionately.
So you walk into this giganticchurch, and because all the art
is proportional the light sizeon the ground level and then
scaling up as it goes furtheraway it all looks human-sized.
(05:43):
So, from the 24-foot statues atthe top to the life-size
statues at your level, your eyeis tricked by that.
Until you look up you say ooh,those are people walking around
above those letters up there andthe letters are bigger than the
people.
So those are eight foot tallletters.
(06:06):
So that connection of theawe-inspiring, the transcendent
and the human, it's embodied inthis basilica.
And that was one of thoseRenaissance artistic choices
that was unlike everything thathad come before.
It was unlike the Gothic.
They weren't trying tooverwhelm you with how many rows
(06:26):
of columns you saw.
Instead of pillar after pillarafter pillar, you have two
pillars.
Now, they're gigantic, colossal, multi-pillars built together.
But your brain says one, two,not overwhelming.
And then you look around andthere's all these different side
(06:46):
altars, sure, but they're allkind of spaced out.
There's kind of blank space inbetween.
That doesn't draw your eye, sothat, unlike the Renaissance,
the early Renaissance art andthe art that came before it,
it's not image on top of imageon top of image.
It's things that are bite-sized, but they help you to focus.
(07:10):
Now you can look up into, forexample, Michelangelo's dome,
and you can see saint aftersaint after saint, all in the
panoply around, and so, if youwant that, you can find it.
But most of what's going todraw your eye is the
"baldacchino" over the"confessio" that says: While
you're right here, peter is here.
Joan Watson (07:32):
Yeah, there's a piece there that you might not
expect, and it's because of thatsymmetry.
And if you're overwhelmed, it'sbecause of the immensity and
the human emotions of beingthere, I think, are more
overwhelming that the structureis not overwhelming, despite its
size.
Father Matthew Kuhn (07:46):
Honestly ,yeah.
Especially in the Jubilee yearwith all the crowds that are
there.
The people themselves are partof the experience when you are
being jostled by literallymillions of people this year.
I mean, they're expecting90-some million people to visit
the Basilica this year.
Joan Watson (08:06):
From all over the world.
Father Matthew Kuhn (08:07):
From all over the world.
Look out for the nuns.
They are best with the elbowsand it's their house, they know
it, so they will get between you.
Hold on to your tour mates.
It's really the universality ofthe church in living color.
Joan Watson (08:27):
Yeah, yeah, I'm glad.
So two things you mentioned.
Number one the "baldacchino",and I want to come back to that
because people are like, wait,what did Father say?
So I want to come back to that.
But you mentioned right awaythis idea of like being a
shopping mall, like this ideathat there are lots of altars.
And I think for many Americans,maybe not other Europeans, but
for many Americans that might besomething new, because my
parish church has the high altarand maybe a freestanding altar
(08:49):
in front of it, right.
So most of us just are used tohaving this one altar where mass
is celebrated and not many sidealtars.
So can you talk a little bitabout that?
Because that's just one, Ithink one of the most unique
things for an Americanexperience.
Father Matthew Kuhn (09:02):
Yeah, so to start with the architectural
style itself, so it's called abasilica from the "court of the
king, right, the "Basileus" wasthe king, and so he had this
long hallway with a curve at theend we call the apse.
That would project his voicedown the hallway.
So while you were waiting inline to meet the king, you got
(09:23):
to hear his reverberating voice,you approached his justice and
you were in awe and majestybefore this great person.
And that long hall with acurved end became the standard
for Roman legal buildings, andtherefore, even their temples
had a lot of that same structure.
Now, when Christians startedbuilding churches, when we
(09:45):
started making basilica churches, we Christianized it.
We put in a transept, right, soyou have the vertical and now
you have this horizontal bar onit as well.
Well, what are you going to dowith those two sides?
Just stack in more chairs?
No, now you have an opportunityfor an extra altar at each of
those ends.
So now you have your main focalpoint in the center, which
should say Peter's Basilica, andwhere the cross comes together,
(10:09):
you have the papal altar.
On the back wall, in the apse,you have the chair of St.
Peter, that symbol of theuniversal connection of the
apostles with their head.
They're first among theapostles, Peter, and then on the
side chapels you have otheraltars.
So, for example, the one sidealtar that they use for daily
(10:30):
mass is the St Joseph altar, andright next to him are the
graves of two other apostles,Simon and Jude, and so there are
The one of those two is right atthe closest point in the
basilica to where Peter wasactually crucified.
So on that side altar, you havea celebration of the martyrdom
of Peter himself, and an imageof Peter being crucified upside
(10:53):
down on his cross.
So somebody who's never heardthe story of Peter before can
come in, go to that side altarand not, you know, just pay
their respects to Jesus and theBlessed Sacrament, but also see
that image and go hey, why isthat guy upside down?
Oh, that's how Peter was killed.
Peter was crucified, yeah, butnot like Jesus.
And then you get to hear moreof the story.
(11:15):
It's a catechism in stone.
That's another one of thebeautiful ways to describe it.
And then, because there's somuch history in this Basilica, I
mean you talk about dozens ofsaints.
I don't want to throw numbersat you because I get conflicting
reports.
(11:38):
So from the Vatican's own StPeter's Basilica website, right
Basilicasanpietro.
va, 25 altars on the main floor,12 chapels below.
Okay.
So if you bear that in mind,those are 25 individual places
celebrating a significant figure, whether that was a pope or a
(11:59):
saint, or one who was both.
So in the case of Pope St.
John Paul II, he's got his ownaltar on the main floor, now
very popular.
The Polish people, they lovehim.
His altar is always busy.
But you have other greats inhistory, like literal greats,
like Pope St.
Gregory the Great has his altar.
Pope St.
Leo the Great has his altarwith a big bas-relief of him
(12:22):
rebuking Attila the Hun, one ofmy personal favorites.
Everything down to some of thefuneral monuments don't have
their own altar but, like myfavorite funeral monument, the
funeral monument of PopeAlexander VII is over a doorway.
It's the fire exit out thesacristy side.
(12:43):
So it was my favorite doorbecause that was the door I got
to come into for liturgies inthe Vatican when I had the
special golden ticket.
Yeah but then you come inunderneath and you're like oh,
what is that?
There's a foot.
No, wait, no, that's theartwork of this beautiful
funeral monument, also byBernini the skeleton of death
with the hourglass (13:06):
Remember you will die.
Joan Watson (13:09):
Again, that catechism in stone.
Every piece of art is teachingus something and reminding us of
something.
Father Matthew Kuhn (13:15):
And not just teaching you, but drawing
your mind to the transcendent.
So Bernini made granite andmarble look like cloth.
You're coming through thebedclothes of this guy who's
kneeling down in prayer at hisbedside, you know, remembering
death so that he'll be a goodpope.
And that's not a curtain,that's stone, and it looks soft
(13:41):
500 years later.
It's so impressive, but it'snot overwhelming.
Joan Watson (13:46):
Yeah, yeah.
(14:10):
So we have all these differentaltars.
Sometimes you know, like thebig mosaic above the altars to
one saint, but then there'sanother saint buried underneath,
and so you could spend daysthere and still discover
something new.
But I want to talk a little bitabout this baldacchino, because
you threw out this great wordand people probably can picture
it in their head if they knowwhat it is.
(14:31):
But they might not know whatthe baldacchino is all about,
but I bet they can picture itonce you start describing it.
Father Matthew Kuhn (14:37):
So the best place to start is if you've
ever done a Eucharisticprocession outdoors Typically
they will carry over themonstrance they'll have some
kind of a canopy, okay, so thinkof the baldacchino as the
canopy over the Eucharist.
Now it does two things.
Number one if you have anoutdoor altar, the literally
keeps you out of the rain andthe sun.
(14:57):
So that's nice, keep the oldpriest healthy.
But the other thing that itdoes is it draws your attention.
It says, hey, focus on this.
So everything on the walls isstone and mosaic.
(15:19):
So the mosaics are the littlepieces of glass set in plaster
to make what was at one time apainting into something
permanent and enduring, right sothat that most of what you're
looking at is hard stone.
And then in the midst of that,all of a sudden you have this
big metal thing and the bronzeis again It's different texture,
it's covered in vines and beesand living things that again
(15:40):
pull you in, and it's got theseswirling Jewish-style columns
that are architecturally andartistically different from
everything around it, againdrawing your eye in.
And then it's this highcontrast of colors.
They've just cleaned it up.
So when we were here lastMarch, we were so mad because
the baldacchino was covered inscaffolding and like, oh, we
(16:02):
don't get to see it.
But then this year, just beforewe got here, they opened it up
and it is stunning.
The gold of the polished bronzeagainst the black of the matte
finish.
The contrast there, the blackand gold.
Really it focuses you and itdraws you in and says this is
(16:24):
special, what's under this?
And if you look up in the dome,you have the image of God, the
Father.
You look under the canopy ofthe baldacchino and you have the
Holy Spirit dove, and what'sunderneath that?
The altar.
So you have the Father, theSpirit and the Son, all pointing
(16:46):
down to the rock on whichChrist said "I will build my
church.
We have the whole presence ofthe Trinity, supported by the
humanity of the saints, and itall comes together in a place
where we gather around thethrone of God.
Right, the "worthy are thosethat are welcome to the supper
(17:08):
of the Lamb".
So when Jesus said to Peter,"feed my sheep".
And 2,000 years later we'regoing to Peter to receive the
Eucharist from his successor,all of what we believe comes
into focus in those moments.
(17:29):
And when you see people treatingPope Francis like a rock star
he is an old man in a wheelchair, right, he is not impressive in
any worldly sense and say aprayer for him.
We're going to have the rosaryhere at nine o'clock, a vigil
for Pope Francis.
And it's so beautiful becauseit's nine o'clock at night on a
rainy day in Rome and people arelining up to sit in folding
(17:52):
chairs in St.
Peter's Square and pray therosary in Italian.
It's not going to be comfy,it's not going to be pleasant in
any earthly sense.
Sure, you might see some famousperson while you're there, some
cardinal, so-and-so but you'realso going to be elbow to elbow
with people from Korea, peoplefrom Africa, people from every
(18:17):
part of humanity will be presentthere Catholics, non-catholics.
It's really beautiful.
So one of my favorites in StPeter's Basilica, one of the
people that's buried there, isSt.
Josephat, right.
He's one of the bishops of oneof the Eastern churches, and St.
Josephat was killed because hewanted to bring his Eastern
Orthodox congregation into unionwith Rome again.
(18:39):
That wasn't real popular in theEast at the time.
So he's there.
He's buried here in St Peter'sin the West, even though he is
an Eastern bishop, and he'streated with the same dignity
and respect as popes, and he's,of course, right next to where
they hear confessions.
So the one who reconciled Eastand West is there where you can
(19:03):
be reconciled with Jesus.
Isn't that perfect?
I love all these connections.
Joan Watson (19:07):
That's the crazy thing about being at St.
Peter's is if you know churchhistory or you know anything
about the saints and you'rekneeling there and you look up
and you're like, "wait a minute,that's wait, that's the tomb of
Joseph at?
" And then you look over andyou're like "that's Gregory
Nazianzus and that's".
You know these people that weregiants in the church and are
here under this roof.
So it's, it's, it's, yes, it'sthe tomb of Peter and he's under
the high altar.
(19:28):
And there's somethingincredibly poignant with having
the successor of Peter celebratemass on that high altar,
knowing that underneath are thebones of St.
Peter.
But then you're also surroundedby this church history and Leo
the Great and Gregory the Greatand Pius X and Joseph at, and
yeah.
Father Matthew Kuhn (19:42):
And you can go down the main aisle and find
your local cathedral, whereverits size, you know, is marked
off from the back wall.
So in the central aisle andthis is something about those
superhuman things right, it's so.
It's, it's almost petty really.
It's like, haha, we're biggerthan your church.
So, like, you go down themarble floor and you'll find
(20:04):
this brass insert that will say,for example, St.
Patrick's Cathedral, New York,and then you look back and
there's another hundred yards ofSt.
Peter's Basilica after that,like, oh, I thought St Patrick's
was big.
Then I came here and you lookup at the Baldacchino again.
Okay, so the Baldacchino is inthe central under the canister
(20:31):
of the dome.
Okay, and when you look at thatspace and you try to think how
big is this really?
And you realize you could fitthe space shuttle with its
booster rockets and launch padall under that dome without
scraping the sides.
The Statue of Liberty would notbe able to reach the ceiling
with her torch.
Joan Watson (20:50):
That's crazy, yeah, and again it doesn't seem like
that when you're in therebecause of that unity and that
symmetry, it's incredible.
You're completely thrown offthat sense, and so it's good
when you're there to think aboutthose things and to try to
picture that, because it givesyou that immensity.
But could you speak a littlebit about the altar of the chair
(21:11):
as well?
You had mentioned that earlieron the back wall by Bernini.
Father Matthew Kuhn (21:13):
Sure, yep, well, we just had the feast of
the chair of St.
Peter.
And again, this is what sets itapart from St.
John in the Lateran, which isthe Cathedral of Rome, of the
Diocese of Rome, because theHoly Father is also the Bishop
of the Diocese of Rome.
But what St.
Peter's Basilica represents isthat universality, and the
monument on the wall is a chair.
(21:36):
It is a reliquary of an olderchair that was believed to be
from St.
Peter himself.
I'm not going to dive into theveracity or non-veracity of that
, that's for people much smarterthan me to figure out, but what
it represents is the connectionof the universal church,
(21:56):
through Peter, to the HolySpirit, because above this
beautiful bronze chair set inthe wall is what looks like a
stained glass window of the HolySpirit.
Now, it's not glass, it'sactually thin slices of
alabaster stone, right.
This predates stained glass, ifyou can imagine that this was
(22:17):
the first of an art style.
And that Holy Spirit window.
There's a cloud emanating fromthat window.
That is what is supporting thechair.
If you look, the chair is kindof floating in the midair over
the altar, and there are fourbishops who are tied by ribbons
to the chair, but they're notholding up the chair right.
So two from the East, two fromthe West: Athanasius, Ambrose,
(22:38):
Augustine, and I forget who thefourth one is.
Oh, I hate being put on thespot.
So four bishops, two from theEast, two from the West, and
they represent the universalityof the church.
And then you pair that with, upabove the words that are going
around the Basilica, which isthe confession of Peter right:
(23:02):
"Peter, do you love me?
Feed my sheep".
And when what's in Latin in thewords gets to that center point
over the Holy Spirit windowfrom the West on the left, in
Latin it switches over to Greekfor a little while.
Joan Watson (23:20):
Oh, I didn't know that
Father Matthew Kuhn (23:21):
You never noticed that before, have you?
It's so seamless, but theletters switch to Greek for the
rest of the apse to show "Hey,you Greek speakers, you Eastern
churches, you're still part ofus.
This is for you too", and it'sthe Holy Spirit that holds the
whole thing together.
Joan Watson (23:37):
Beautiful.
That's such an important partabout the chair, because I was
actually I heard somebody givinga tour one time and they talked
about how the bishops areholding up the chair and I said
no, no, no, no, no.
They've gotten it completelywrong.
That's the beauty of it thatthe Holy Spirit gives the
authority.
Father Matthew Kuhn (23:55):
Can we talk about the humanity of that
moment, though I mean becauseI've given a lot of St.
Peter's tours and I've saidwrong things.
I was fed bad intel, so tospeak.
Some of the stuff we wereworking from just wasn't
accurate, and I've been on manytours since then and I've
learned and I've improved myknowledge of it and my
appreciation for it.
So don't let something likethat that somebody said no,
(24:20):
that's not accurate Don't letthat get in the way.
There are misunderstandings outthere, and there are bad tours.
Just remember you can always goback to the source.
So BasilicaSanPietro.
va, that is the officialBasilica of St.
Peter web page, and not onlydoes it have fantastic pictures,
(24:43):
but it even has littleinformational pages.
Okay.
So, for example, I can look up,like I just did, St.
Ambrose, S t.
Augustine, St.
Athanasius, and St.
John Chrysostom are the fourbishops tied to the chair, right
.
So this was again commissionedby Pope Alexander VI, who I
(25:06):
mentioned.
His funeral monumentcommissioned Bernini to complete
that piece of work.
So two Greeks and two Latins,and these giants of the church
are all tied to the history,right, they're all bishops,
they're all successors of theapostles, but they all still
(25:27):
depend on Peter.
So, even though none of themwere popes, none of them were
the successors of Peter directlyas bishops of Rome, but they
were all Wait a minute, no, theyweren't even all bishops.
(25:50):
Yeah, John Chrysostom was abishop too.
Yeah, yeah.
They are all bishops, yeah, yeah.
Athanasius and Alexander, JohnChrysostom, Constantinople,
Augustine, Hippo, Ambrose, Milan, yeah, all bishops, sorry.
Joan Watson (26:04):
There's just wearing the miter, because of
the West and the East, I thinkprobably.
Father Matthew Kuhn (26:09):
Yeah, yeah, so different styles and
different times.
So there again.
So, like we have these imagesof popes that are all dressed in
red, and so people who don'tknow say, oh, those must just be
cardinals.
Like, well, no, up until theDominican pope, they all wore
red.
And just because this Dominicanis really attached to his white
(26:30):
habit, he kind of changed thestyle, and the guys after him
said, yeah, we kind of like thewhite, but they kept the red
shoes.
No, this is important, theykept the red shoes because they
walk the path of martyrdom.
And this was before Gucci was athing.
So you know, it's not justbecause the red shoes are Gucci,
(26:52):
it's it again There's thosethings, there's those layers of
history that, when you peel themback, you appreciate it more,
even if the initial story is isvery human, like, no, he just
cause he, he was a dominican.
Well, but why do the Dominicanswear white?
Well, it's their devotion toour Blessed Mother, and that
they're striving for that purity, that clarity of reason, and
(27:13):
that purity of heart.
That is the, the, the reasonfor choosing white for the habit
.
Well, doesn't the papacy strivefor that same kind of teaching
clarity, that same aspect oflife?
Yeah, as long as we don't losethe connection to the road of
the martyrs.
Joan Watson (27:31):
Yes, yeah, I love that.
That's what they're called too.
I know we could talk for hoursabout this, and so I know we
don't have hours to talk aboutit.
I'm going to put you on thespot.
Could you give us kind of a feweither can't miss things to see
, or maybe your favorite place?
Father Matthew Kuhn (27:48):
Well, I can't believe we've talked this
long about St.
Peter's Basilica and we haven'tmentioned the Pietà.
That is the one can't- miss-itpiece of art in the Basilica,
hands down.
Michelangelo's earliestmasterpiece.
So before he did anything elsefor the Basilica, he did this
(28:09):
altar piece for a side altar ina different church and it was so
famous they had to bring it toSt.
Peter's, because everybodywould come to Rome and they say,
well, but where's the Pietà?
Okay, bring it over here,they're all going to want to see
it.
Let's just put it in the placethey're all going to anyway.
So you have the image of Maryholding the body of Jesus after
he's been taken down from thecross, and the serenity of
(28:31):
Mary's face accepting in hercompassion the cost of our
salvation, so her participationin the passion of Christ,
receiving His body into her arms.
And then it's up on this littlepedestal above the altar, and
it was a specific white marblechosen by Michelangelo to match
(28:55):
the white of the bread of thehost.
So when the priest at the altarraises the body of Christ: this
is my body which will be givenup for you and he holds up the
host, the host melds into thebody of Jesus in Mary's arms.
And it's right there, and youcan see it behind some very
(29:16):
protective glass now, thanks tosome unfortunate accidents of
history, but it's right there asyou walk in.
So you come through the holydoor.
We're in the Jubilee year,you're going to enter through
the holy door and right thefirst thing you meet when you
come into the arms of motherchurch is Mary, the model and
mother of the church.
So she's the one who welcomesyou, says here's my son.
(29:37):
This is what you're really herefor.
You think you're here to seeall this art, you' re here for
Jesus, don't forget.
So that's the first, don't missa thing.
The second one is that funeralmonument that I mentioned of
Pope Alexander VII.
The third one not to be missed,um, because it is just, it is
so, so typical of the Italianpeople, is the bronze statue of
(30:02):
Saint Peter.
Now you can't go up and touchit anymore, but for centuries
people came to Saint Peter's andthey would, because the towns
are very tactile people, theylike to touch things.
They would rub their hands onthe feet of this, of this statue
of Saint Peter, and it's beengoing on for so long that Peter
(30:22):
has no toes left.
Human hands wore away bronze.
That's how many people havereached out in faith to touch an
image, just an image, of thisgreat saint um, and that's you
know.
You can call it superstition,but when you meet the Italian
(30:44):
people, they have theirsuperstitions.
This is different.
This is that real, "I want tohold you" tactile faith.
That, has to be honest, madeRome such a good place to have a
place like St.
Peter's.
You have a people for whomhospitality is the cultural
(31:08):
central point, and these are thepeople welcoming us to this
great church.
Not every culture would share aplace like this, but they love
it.
They put it on their coins.
You can't "welcome to Rome andthen they imagine like, if you
speak a foreign language andthey don't understand what
you're asking, they'll probablyjust point you to Saint Peters,
(31:29):
because that's probably whatyou're asking, um, and then
they'll say sempre diritto, justkeep going forward.
Joan Watson (31:35):
I remember the first time I went to Saint
Peters to touch his foot, itjust it really felt like my
pilgrimage had I'd made it like.
It felt like kind of thatcrowning moment, praying it is
too, absolutely, but that justseemed to like cap the
pilgrimage.
Father Matthew Kuhn (31:49):
Like okay, like any good penance in
confession, you should be ableto know when you've accomplished
it.
Joan Watson (31:54):
Yes!
Father Matthew Kuhn (31:55):
So when you've touched the foot, you've
made it to Peter.
Yeah smart calls.
You know we want to have smartcalls, um, so don't overlook the
, the experience as a whole.
I would say that's anotherthing that people, uh, fail to
do.
They come and they want to getpictures of everything.
Put down the camera.
(32:15):
Take it all in.
So after you see the particularmonuments you want to see and
you visited these great saints,and you see the particular
monuments you want to see andyou visited these great saints
and you said your prayers andyou lit your candles and all of
that good stuff, just stop andwatch the faithful and look at
(32:36):
the sea of people who have allcome, whether they know it or
not, to have an encounter withGod, and those that come with
great understanding you'll seethem weeping.
And those that have absolutelyinnocent faith you'll see them
weeping too.
And those in the middle whowere too smart to weep and were
(32:57):
not smart enough to weep.
We need to take it all in andjust appreciate vicariously
through those who get it eitherat the gut level or at the brain
level.
Um, there's something specialhere.
Joan Watson (33:14):
Amen.
Thank you, father.
Father Matthew Kuhn (33:17):
Thank you!
Joan Watson (33:18):
That's yeah, you've said it all, right, there.
Father Matthew Kuhn (33:22):
Great.
Joan Watson (33:22):
Thank you.
Thanks for joining us and Ihope you've made everybody want
to go to St Peter's.
But we will also put thatwebsite in the show notes so
that people can kind ofinvestigate for themselves and
learn for themselves, becausethere is the riches that are
there.
Father Matthew Kuhn (33:36):
Well, what they need to do is call Verso
and get over here.
Well, that's what they need todo.
Joan Watson (33:41):
There's still time before the Jubilee year is over
too.
Still time so well.
Thank you so much, father.
Father Matthew Kuhn (33:51):
I appreciate you all, that you all
do Appreciate you.
You take care.
Joan Watson (33:53):
G od bless.
Do you want to experience thishistoric event in the life of
the church for yourself?
Whether you want to take agroup or you're just an
individual looking for a trip,Verso Ministries can make that
dream a reality.
Visit versoministriescom slashjubilee for all our jubilee
dates and for more information.
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