July 29, 2025 • 53 mins
Walking through Rome on the Seven Church pilgrimage offers deep encounters with saints and history while following in St. Philip Neri's creative footsteps of evangelization. Father Jonathan Meyer leads us through this walk while sharing his knowledge of Rome's basilicas, catacombs, and traditions from his years of study there.
Learn:
• How St. Philip Neri reformed Rome in the 16th century through creative evangelization and joyful witness
• What basilicas are considered the "Seven Pilgrim Churches of Rome"
• A little bit about each of these churches
Looking to experience the Jubilee in 2025? It's not too late! Visit versoministry.com/jubilee for trip dates and more information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
In today's episode, I ampleased to be joined with Father
Jonathan Meyer, a parish pastorof the Archdiocese of
Indianapolis.
Hi, father.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hello there, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I am great.
Father and I went to Rometogether.
Was that last summer, twosummers ago?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
No, it was two summers ago it was in 2003 for
World Youth Day.
In preparation for World YouthDay is the best way to say it.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
That's right, because World Youth Day obviously
wasn't in Rome, it was inPortugal.
But if you're going to takekids across the ocean, you
should probably take them toRome.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
However, going to Fatima was awesome, and taking
kids to World Youth Day ingeneral is always an awesome and
a great decision that allpeople should make, even if it's
in Asia.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
That's right.
We'll have you do a commercialfor Seoul pretty soon and why we
should go to World Youth Day.
But we went to Rome prior toWorld Youth Day in preparation
for World Youth Day, and fatherloves Rome.
Father, you studied in Rome.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I did.
I lived in Rome from 1999 to2003.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
So you were there for the 2000 Jubilee, which is
pretty awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I was there for the great Jubilee or 2000.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Did you know what you were getting into Like did you
know?
No, I didn't even know what aJubilee was.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I had no idea.
I was very ignorant and stillam in many ways in my catholic
faith and I had no idea, like,what that meant and I didn't
really know that all that muchabout pope john paul ii.
Really, uh, really, it was justa different era and time when
it comes to the internet andknowing things and but um yeah,
(02:04):
it was the best of times.
It really was.
I absolutely loved my time inRome and loved the opportunity
to have an internationaleducation and to just breathe in
the culture that is Rome.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
It is interesting to think like if we wanted to know
what John Paul II was saying, wehad to buy a book.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
You had to buy a book or subscribe to what used to be
known as a newspaper or amagazine.
These are pieces of paper thatwere glued together or folded
together and would arrive in amailbox that a postal deliverer
would carry, not an amazon bagand you would find out, like the
next week, what he said theweek earlier.
(02:43):
Yeah, very different world.
I think about even just likewith the election of Pope Leo
XIV, like we had to be likethere.
We lived in a world where somepeople wouldn't know there was a
new Pope for months.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, Like in the middle ages, you'd be praying
for this Holy Father andsomebody would come into your
town and be like oh, he's notPope anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
He died.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, holy father, and somebody'd come into your
town and be like oh, he's notpope anymore, actually, but we
knew it instantaneously.
Um, so when you were over therefor the jubilee 2000 did you
get to participate in some ofthe special jubilee events?
Like for like the opening or nowere you?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
yeah, I had.
Um, I had a friend that wasable to be, uh, with pope john
paul ii as he opened the doorsand he was one of the first ones
to walk through and he had,like, scribbled down the names
of all my family members andfriends and people I was praying
for at that time.
That was in his sport coat whenhe walked through and I yeah,
(03:37):
so I was there.
I made it a habit to go to StFrancis Basilica as much as I
possibly could, which ismultiple times a week.
To get to Syncretist Basilicaas much as I possibly could,
which is multiple times a week,to get the indulgence.
And I went to a lot of thecanonizations that took place
during the year 2000.
I was there for World Youth Day.
It was the first World YouthDay I attended in the year 2000
in the city of Rome and, yeah, Iwas there for all of it.
(04:01):
I was there when the Jubileedoor then closed.
Yeah, I lived it.
It was a dream.
What a gift.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
What a gift, and Father has never missed a World
Youth Day since, so I thinkthat's pretty awesome.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I am a junkie.
I'm looking for number four tonumber 10.
Number 10.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
So when we talk about the city of Rome, there is a
saint that sticks out in my mind.
People think of Peter and Paul,but there is a saint known as
the second apostle to Rome hekind of reconverted Rome and
that saint's Philip Neary.
And so I thought we could talkabout Philip Neary and a
tradition that he started orparticipated in.
I think he started it the sevenpilgrim church walk.
(04:39):
So, could you tell us maybe alittle bit about Philip Neary
and his connection to Rome, orwhatever you want to tell us
about Philip Neary?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So St Philip Neary was a very zealous man who just
wanted the conversion of Romeand he had seen how Rome had
fallen just into secular waysand secular things.
And he also looked at theclergy and he realized that many
of the priests were not livinggood, zealous lives and so he
wanted to bring together priestsand not ordained and have them
(05:10):
kind of just live a very zealousholy life and ultimately so he
founded what is now known as theOratory, which at its root is
the word Ora, which means topray, like Oramus or Ora et
Labora, and he believed incatechesis, he believed in
(05:30):
prayer.
And he also was like so manysaints, I think like saints we
should like look at them like inthe pious sense, but also just
like in the practical sense,like saints were very creative
sense, like saints were verycreative.
So St Francis of Assisi isattributed for bringing the
(05:50):
stations of the cross and thenativity scene.
That's creative, that'sartistic.
St Philip Neary was really avery he loved to engage culture.
So he would sit outside of pubsand taverns and he would listen
to the songs they were singingand then he would take the tunes
and the melodies but then hewould change and write his own
(06:13):
lyrics to them.
So he would take secular songsbut then write lyrics and teach
them to children on the streetso they would be singing about
Jesus.
Um, he loved.
There's actually a tree up onthe Janiculum Hill where he uh,
which is one of the hills in thecity room, and he would just do
outdoor catechesis.
(06:34):
So instead of having childrengo inside school buildings or
inside churches, he would docatechesis outside, uh, to meet
the children where they were at,where they were playing.
He believed deeply in prayer andin just celebrating Mass
reverently and piously.
He was actually known, verymuch so for falling into ecstasy
(06:55):
and mystical contemplationduring Mass, so much so that if
he needed to say Mass quickly,they would actually put chickens
into the chapel where he wascelebrating mass.
That would peck at his feetduring mass so they would be
distracted so that he would notbe in ecstasy, because the altar
servers were actually trainedto snuff the candles during the
(07:18):
elevations because he would holdup Jesus and then he would just
stand there for sometimes 30minutes before he would put
Jesus down.
So just a great, pious, lovingindividual.
He very much cared for the poor, had a huge heart for reaching
out to those who you know wereon the fringes of society.
(07:40):
And then he also is the one whoso we as Americans our country
is very new and we I alwaysthink this is really interesting
Like if you go to a historicalsite in America, like if you go
to Mount Vernon or Valley Forgewe'll have people in colonial
(08:00):
dress and we'll be speaking inBritish accents and they will,
and we, we restore our, we makesure that George Washington's
bedroom looks exactly as it did,and we have like grants and
foundations to make sure thatall these buildings will always
look amazing.
That's not the case over in inEurope, and in fact.
So what we think about thecatacombs?
(08:21):
The catacombs have beenabandoned.
No one was going to thecatacombs.
And that's why, if you go toRome, like the Colosseum is
falling down, it's continuingfalling down the Roman Forum,
like no one's ever going torebuild it, and have you like,
hey, this is what it looked likeand we're going to have people
in Toges telling you what it'slike.
No, you just show up and you'relike, yeah, there, and I really
(08:47):
don't know what this is andthere's no one to tell me about
it.
So, anyways, the catacombs havebeen abandoned and St Philip
Neri actually would go, kind oflike found his way into the
catacombs and he would go andpray in the chapels of the
saints and the martyrs, and itwas there that he prayed
fervently to the Holy Spirit forhis heart just to be caught on
fire with god's love, and hisheart actually expanded and
(09:09):
broke his rib cage and, um, thisis actually true, they did like
an autopsy after he died toprove the fact it's actually.
But anyways, his heart actuallyexpanded out of love for god
and he, yeah, just brought thislove out into the city and was
able to just draw people closeto the Lord, so much so that
people knew that he was a saintwhen he was living.
(09:30):
And so he tried.
He actually raised a girl fromthe dead, and there's a year
every year on the anniversary ofthe.
It's a private home where thegirl was raised from the dead,
and once a year on the day thatthis, the anniversary they
opened this home and mass iscelebrated in the home again and
people line up in the streetsthroughout Rome to go up into
(09:52):
the, into the room where theyoung girl was brought back to
life.
So then he they knew that hewas holy and he um.
So at one point he like shavedoff half of his beard so that he
would look like like he was,like he was crazy, so that
people would think that hewasn't holy, and so I shaved my
entire beard off today to letyou know that I am crazy as well
(10:14):
, but I'm really no.
But, yeah, so just a great guy.
But I go back to the idea oflike creative, because he
realized that what was happeningwasn't working.
You know, saying mass in churchalone wasn't engaging people.
It wasn't bringing people in, itwasn't meeting people where
(10:35):
they were at, and people neededsomething.
So he was willing to becreative and innovative, and
sometimes it's hard in thechurch to find people who are
creative.
It's hard to find people whoare innovative.
We want to do the same thingover and over again, expect
different results.
Well, some of you might knowthat's the definition of
insanity.
So St Philip Mary was thefarthest from insane and he
(10:57):
looked for creative ways to dothings differently.
And so the seven church walk,or the seven church pilgrimage,
is a way that he would engagepeople in a new, creative way to
bring them closer to Jesus.
How was that for anintroduction on I love it.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
I love it.
I mean I just I think this ideaof pilgrimage and he saw the
culture as needing thistransformation.
But he went into something theywere already doing, right, so
like there was a time ofcarnival and there was a time of
excess, and he's like I want tobring real community right.
So he didn't just take awaywhat people were doing I mean,
you mentioned that with thesongs, right.
(11:34):
He said let's have realChristian community and let's go
on pilgrimage and sing songsand have a picnic and have real
Christian joy.
I want to center this in history.
This is happening just postReformation.
So when Father mentionedthere's like excesses and the
priests aren't living, they'renot living celibacy, they're not
living poverty, they're notliving the Christian life.
What I love about Philip Nearyis, in some ways he just does it
(11:57):
right.
He just lives a Christian lifeand his witness is living a
joyful Christian life.
Like we can focus on himraising somebody from the dead
or his heart enlarging, but somuch of his work was just being
normal and Catholic and that'show he transformed culture and
so he just, yeah, lived theChristian life as we're called
(12:17):
to.
I think that's just such a goodreminder for us.
I think.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yep, totally agree.
I think we need to constantlybe asking that question and I
think, like we see people go tothe other extreme of like I want
to engage the culture, butultimately I'm ultimately is
living the culture.
It's, how do we appropriatelypermeate the culture with
authentic catholic truth?
(12:42):
That's and there can always bethat.
You know, it is easier to saywe're just going to stay inside
and chant beautiful things inLatin, like that's always safe,
yeah, but safe doesn't alwaysget you to the drunkards and the
people that are out in thestreets.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, yeah, the two extremes are easy.
It's easy to just avoid cultureor be part of culture.
And so how do we thread thatneedle of virtue in moderation
in the middle?
So they would go on pilgrimage,they would go to the catacombs
which he loved and he restored,and they would go to the four
major basilicas and they wouldgo to the minor basilicas, and
(13:22):
is there any?
Are any of the?
So there's seven churches.
Have you ever done this, father?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Oh my gosh, that is such a great question.
I have.
I have done the seven churchwalk multiple times, at least
four, maybe more, and then wewill also talk at some point,
joan, about the seven gelateriawalk, which I know is the real
reason that we're having thispodcast.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Okay, Listeners, stay tuned After we talk about
churches.
We are definitely talking aboutthat.
I'm making a note.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yes, I'd love to talk about the Seven Church Walk,
but I also love to talk aboutthe Seven Gelateria Walk, yeah,
(14:18):
that's going to hold peopleuntil the end of the episode.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So who does?
Can anybody do the Seven ChurchWalk?
Could I go do it right?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
now Anyone can do the seven church walk at any time
whenever there is a custom atthe North American College that
we would do the seven churchwalk normally on Tuesday of.
Holy Week and it was a big dealbecause this was you know
there'd be.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
I would probably say there's 180 seminaries at the
time.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I would say probably, there were probably close to
100 of us.
So you had 100 men between theage of like 23 and 26 wearing
clerics, walking through thecity of Rome going on pilgrimage
.
It was fantastic, it really was.
It was great.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
So I studied in Rome during Lent and there's another
tradition of the stationchurches which we can talk about
someday.
That's a whole other tradition.
That's a whole other tradition.
But it's morning mass and a lotof the guys would walk to the
different churches and evenseeing that and it was usually
much smaller groups was such atestament.
I mean, even in Rome, when yousee a bunch of people in clerics
all the time, there's somethingabout groups of men and clerics
(15:28):
walking with that purpose thatreally, really speaks.
So I can't imagine seeing 100guys walking out to the
catacombs.
So, how long would it take you?
We're talking a whole day thing.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
This is such a great question that you're asking
right now.
So in preparation for our talk,I did a little bit of research
and, if I look at my editionhere, give me just 10 seconds.
Yeah, it is about 14 milestotal in one day.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
And I have the mileage broken down, so if
someone wants to add this all up, they can do it later.
But so people can start atdifferent places.
You can start anywhere.
When we talk about the sevenchurches we're talking about,
there are seven churches you'regoing to go to eventually.
You can really start at any ofthem.
We would always start at StPeter's Basilica because we we
always just as men of the NorthAmerican college, we always had
(16:26):
a primacy of Peter and there wassomething very powerful for us
to start at the tomb of St Peterand also just having mass at St
Peter's is.
Back in those days it wasreally easy to do to have an
altar scheduled Of course StPhilip Neri would have begun at
Chiesa Nuova, which is veryclose to St Peter's Basilica.
(16:50):
It actually would be the closestchurch to Chiesa Nuova would be
St Peter's Basilica.
St Peter's Basilica andactually the distance between
where St Philip Martin Erieactually lived and the North
American college to St Peter'sBasilica are probably almost
equidistant, but just a fewminute walk from those places.
But St Peter's Basilica, Ithink you know, I mean a lot of
(17:12):
people were watching St Peter'sBasilica the last, you know, few
months.
And I think people are stillinterested, so they're still
like up what Leo is doing andwhat is he going to do.
I think St Peter's Basilica canbe overlooked of what St
Peter's is really about.
So primarily St Peter'sBasilica is the mausoleum of St
(17:34):
Peter, the reason why St Peter's?
Basilica is St Peter's Basilicais because it is built directly
over the tomb of St Peterhimself, and that is why it is
where it is at and that is whythe word Vatican exists.
The Vatican predatesChristianity.
The word Vatican was a piece ofproperty that had a cemetery
(17:57):
already on it prior to the deathof St Peter, and it's where the
Emperor Nero had a circus, alarge amphitheater that had been
constructed, that was used forchariot games and ultimately for
the execution of Christians.
It's where Peter and Paul weremocked and then Peter was
ultimately crucified upside downand was buried right next in
(18:24):
the Vatican Cemetery.
So, anyways, the St Peter'sBasilica is built directly above
the bones of St Peter and thearchaeological work behind that
is spectacular.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
We actually had an episode with your classmate,
Father Thomas Sidlick, to talkabout.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Talk about this I have no doubt that there is a
very smart macker that hasalready been on here who was
given the uh honor of being ascabby tour guide while in the
city of rome.
So anyways, if you haven't donethat, check out that other
podcast, because theauthenticity of that is really
powerful that there are thebones of a 70 year old man who
has no feet because he wascrucified upside down.
(19:00):
That is buried directly underthe high papal altar there in
san peter so anyways we alwayswould start with mass and then I
led some college groups onthese pilgrimages and I would
always like teach him a littlesong and then we would sing and
say prayers in the basilica andum, yeah.
So then you would begin what isgoing to be your longest
journey.
So once again, you could goanother route, but the route
(19:22):
that we would always take is wewould just be like we're going
to do the longest one from thatpoint on.
So from St Peter's you're goingto walk 5.1 miles to St Paul's,
outside the wall.
Now, the other reason why Ithink it's great to go directly
(19:43):
from St Peter to St Paul's is tomake that direct connection to
St Peter and Paul being the twoapostles of the city of Rome.
But it is a long walk.
It's a 5.1 mile walk.
You walk along the Tiber River,for the most part.
Until you pass the island of StBartholomew, you keep walking,
you keep walking.
Eventually you're going to takea left, crossing a bridge, and
(20:03):
the walk takes about an hour anda half.
So we would normally pray therosary and just like do kind of
other devotions and just evenjust like talk like normal
people as we were going alongthe way.
St Paul's is spectacular.
I really I was just talking toa good friend of mine and we
(20:25):
were talking about how St Paul'soutside the wall.
And the reason why it's calledSt Paul's outside the wall is
that during the time of themartyrdom of St Paul, it was not
inside the city.
The Via Appia, and where he wasbeheaded in a place called Tre
Fontane, was outside the city ofRome.
(20:47):
So if someone goes, like if Iwas going to say hey, I'm going
to Rome next week, do not missgoing to St Paul outside the
wall.
It is such a powerful andbeautiful church building and I
can't yeah, I mean St Paul isburied there, but this is the
(21:10):
famous church that has thepicture of all the popes that
are, like a border, along thetop of the basilica and, yeah,
it's just spectacular.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Even though it's the newest, because it was rebuilt
after it burned down, it looksthe oldest like it.
I think it gives you the bestidea of what the original saint
peter's looked like and whatlike the roman basilica looks
like, and that's why it's one ofmy favorites I like it as well
because it really is so simple.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yes, not to put down.
I mean, the saint peter's isamazing, but it really is simple
where you know, at saintpeter's, there's like statues in
every pillar there's twostatues in every single pillar
and there's shrines everywhereand there's so many side altars.
And where at saint paul's, it'spretty simple.
It's like here's the confessiowhere we believe that paul is
(21:56):
buried, and here's the change ofsaint paul and here's the papal
altar and here's the Confessiowhere we believe that Paul is
buried, and here's the change ofSt Paul and here's the papal
altar and here's three otheraltars.
But that's about it and so it'sjust very, it's very, yeah, very
powerful.
Okay, so now we've walked 5.1miles.
That's been a long walk.
(22:16):
We've rested a little bit at StPaul's we paid money to use the
bathrooms there.
And it's been a long walk.
We've rested a little bit at StPaul's, we paid money to use
the bathrooms there and nowwe're like, okay, we have to now
go to St Sebastian.
Now, the neat thing about goingto St Sebastian is that that is
where Philip Neary I think, yeah, very much of the heart of
Philip Neary can be united tobecause of his mystical
(22:38):
experiences that he had there uh, can be united to because of
his mystical experiences that hehad there.
So the walk from St Paul's toSt uh Sebastian is about 2.2
miles.
So it's about a mile.
It was about an hour long uhwalk to get there and the
catacombs of St Sebastian.
By the way, when we were therefor world youth day, I was super
(22:59):
excited because we had anamazing tour guide that was from
America and I forget where hewas from in America, but he was
from America and he was really,really great.
But the catacombs of StSebastian are fantastic.
There are hundreds of miles ofcatacombs under the city of Rome
(23:20):
, and the catacombs of StCallistus are very famous as
well.
I would say probably thecatacombs of St Callistus and
the catacombs of St Sebastianwould be like the top two that
are most visited.
Is that probably right?
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Probably.
There's Priscilla north of town, but most people don't go there
.
I would say you're absolutelyright.
Those two are probably the mostfrequented by tourists.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yes, so the catacombs of St Sebastian are fantastic
and the basilica up top isreally really awesome as well.
So there are the four majorbasilicas Peter Paul Mary by the
way, that's where the band gottheir name from Peter Paul and
Mary, peter Paul Mary, and thenSt John Lateran.
(23:59):
Those are the four major, andthen the three minor are St
Sebastian, santa Croce andJerusalem, and then St Lawrence
outside the wall.
So those three are right thereand so, yeah, I always just tell
people to take their time inthe catacombs, because it's just
(24:24):
such a powerful experience.
I don't even know how to explainif you've never been to the
catacombs.
There's so many different waysthat you can be fascinated the
fact that human hands did thiswith no excavation equipment,
that they would have beenscraping this out by hand, and
somehow they dug all theseunderground caverns and you see
(24:46):
all the niches on the wall wherebodies would have been laid,
and it's, it's.
It's such a fascinatingexperience, uh so I tell people
to just take your time, breatheit in deeply and don't rush.
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
It's so many young men, by theway.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
It's amazing from engineering and religion.
Like you can have an amazingengineering marvel and then the
fact that they were celebratingmass, like yeah, there's
multi-levels.
I think it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Every time I go I have so many young men that have
chosen St Sebastian as theirconfirmation saint and to have
them there and to pray in thelittle chapel grotto area of St
Sebastian is really powerful.
Yeah, it's just really reallyneat.
And then in the basilica theupper basilica of the church,
(25:36):
they have a little shrine thereof Quo Vadis church.
They have a little shrine thereof Quo Vadis, which is a chapel
that you're going to thenencounter on the next little
journey.
But the Quo Vadis Chapel is asmall little shrine where St
Peter, who was a coward and whodenied our Lord on Holy Thursday
(25:58):
night in Jerusalem Lord, onHoly Thursday night in Jerusalem
he's now in the city of Rome.
Rome is burning down, theChristians are all being
persecuted and Peter turns intoa coward again.
And so Peter starts running outof the city to save his life
and he has a mystical vision ofJesus and Jesus is going into
(26:19):
the city carrying a cross on hisshoulders and Peter says Quo
vadis Domini, where are yougoing, lord, quo vadis?
And Jesus says I'm going to thecity to be crucified again.
And Peter's like, oh crap.
I did this once.
I'm going to turn around.
So Peter turns around and goesback into the city, is
(26:39):
ultimately arrested and thencrucified upside down, but in
the church of the Zillow of StSebastian.
So it's believed that when ourLord appeared to Peter, that our
Lord's feet were imprinted intothe ground.
Now, when you live, if you evergo to Rome, there are stories
(27:05):
that are true and there'sstories that should be true, and
you should never make adistinction, ever.
So these feet are on displayand they're sticking awesome
because it's Jesus' footprints.
So you can like people are likeI got Sasquatch and like
Bigfoot that's stupid.
These are Jesus's footprints.
So you can like people like arelike I got a Sasquatch and like
a Bigfoot and like that'sstupid.
These are Jesus's footprintsand they're they're, they're
awesome.
(27:25):
So you can see those.
The real ones are in theBasilica of St Sebastian.
They took them out of thechapel.
I don't know why they did, butthey did, I think because the
chapel is maybe the less securebecause the chapel on the, on
the road there where the Quavadisoup place, I think it's just
like open all the time.
I could be wrong, I don't knowif that's really true.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
It's a little dangerous to get there.
It's a little less traveled, soit's nice to put them someplace
where people can see them moreoften.
Maybe yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yeah.
So, now, if you're from theNorth American college, we would
stop after going to theBasilica of St Sebastian because
we had had mass and we hadwalked two hours, two and a half
(28:14):
hours, and it was time to eat.
So we would always eat ourlunch.
Now, in the days of PhilipNeary, he would encourage people
to bring a picnic lunch withthem, and it is believed that
they would have picnic lunchesoutside of San Sebastiano.
Now I don't know if that'sreally true or not, but I like
to believe because it soundsreally picturesque.
(28:35):
We would go to an Italianrestaurant called Cile Matt, um,
which is, uh, just a smalllittle Italian joint there, and
we would make reservations andthen the really pious knack
seminarians that refused thiswould eat a sack lunch outside,
um, because they were trying todo penance and, uh, they thought
(28:57):
we were being foolish foreating outside.
So, anyways, after our pranzo,we would then walk from St
Sebastian or San Sebastiano toSt John Lateran Now, st John
Lateran.
This is a 5k, exactly 3.1 miles.
So now, what's interestingabout this is that I want you to
(29:21):
think about what you do onThanksgiving morning.
You might go out and run a walkof 5k, run a 5k.
So this is about an hour.
If you're a runner, you can getit done in 16 to 20 minutes or
25 minutes, whatever, but it is3.1 miles from St Sebastian to
St John Lateran and it is abeautiful walk, particularly
after you've had a great pranzoand you know it's great.
(29:45):
So, what's awesome about St JohnLateran is that St John Lateran
is the cathedral church of thewhole entire world, so people
really like St Peter's Basilica.
They think it's really awesome,which they should.
But St Peter's Basilica is notthe cathedral church of the
whole entire world.
St Peter is just the mausoleumof the first Pope, st Peter.
(30:08):
St John Lateran is the cathedralchurch of the whole entire
world, so it has the chair ofthe Pope, and this is the church
that St Francis of Assisiwalked to, from Assisi to have
the rule of St Francis approvedby the Pope, so there's actually
(30:31):
a picture of that.
Next to the chair, also insidethis church, is a relic that's
really powerful.
It is the table that theycelebrated the last supper on,
so the first mass that werecelebrated.
That's above the tabernacle.
So you have the chair of thepope, you have.
This is the place where franciswent, uh, to have the rule
approved by pope urban, and thenyou also, I think, pope urban I
(30:55):
could be wrong on that.
I'm wrong on that I think,honorius honorius.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yes, it's pope, honorius thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
And then it also has the table of saint of from the
last supper from the upper room,because why would you not have
that, um?
And then they claim to have, um, bone fragments of the heads of
both peter and paul in thealtarpiece and of course they do
(31:23):
, because why would they not?
And then the other thing that'sawesome about St John's is that
all of the pillars in thechurch have an apostle in them.
So the church is, when we talkabout apostolic church, like the
church is being held up by theapostles, and that's awesome.
And then, above those images,are old testament images and new
testament images, um, makingtypology references from the old
(31:46):
testament, the new testamentbeing fulfilled, and uh, it's
just awesome.
And the floor is amazing.
Uh, it's just a fantasticchurch.
It's a great cathedral.
I mean, like if I was, if I wasthe pope, I'd be like man, you
should make this a cathedral.
It's pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Would you go back over there and live there again?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Would I go back over there and live there again.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
No, if you were Pope, would you go back to John
Lateran, because it's just thismodern invention that the Popes
live in the Vatican.
I kind of want him to go backover to John Lateran, no I don't
even want to answer thatquestion no-transcript college.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Oh, okay, fair enough I could get some.
Yeah, um, okay, I let's talkabout some other things, about
saint john ladder can you tellus who St John Lateran is Father
?
So St John Lateran is theLaterino family who donated the
property, but it's actuallyconsecrated to St John the
Baptist and St John theEvangelist.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
So it's actually Don't pray to St John Lateran.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
What'd you say?
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Don't pray to St John Lateran.
There is no St John Lateran.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
But it's dedicated to St John the Baptist and St John
the Evangelist and it has avery famous baptistry.
Baptisms were not doneoriginally in the church
buildings.
Baptisteries were like separatechurch buildings and there's a
very famous one there whichpeople like to go to.
It's in the shape of an octagonfor the eighth day, the day of
eternity.
So it's very exciting theeighth day, the day of eternity.
(33:21):
So it's very exciting.
Now, very close to St John theLadder, in fact, right across
the street, is the Scala Sancta,which, if you're going to go to
St John Ladder and if you'regoing to this pilgrimage, you
need to absolutely go to theScala Sancta, because those are,
without a doubt, these stepsthat Jesus walked up and down on
Good Friday when he wascondemned by Pilate.
(33:41):
And St Helen, who we'll talkabout in a second, who was the
mother of Emperor Constantine,had those stairs from the
Praetorium disassembled inJerusalem and shipped to Italy
and they were installed in achurch and you can go up them on
your knees and it is powerful,and so I always do that, and I
(34:02):
always tell everybody to do it,and it's amazing, and that is
such a great grace.
There's also beautiful statuesof Jesus being condemned at
Jehovah and of the Garden ofGethsemane that are there, and
there's a beautiful chapel withsome ancient icons up at the top
(34:22):
.
So, scala Sancta, when you'refacing St John Lattern, it's to
your right.
If you're walking out of StJohn Lattern, it's on your left,
but totally worth going to Did.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I miss anything, I think you covered it.
My favorite obelisk is outsideSt John Lattern too, because
it's so old that Moses wouldhave seen it, because the Roman
emperors brought all the.
They brought all these obelisksfrom Egypt to Rome and then the
Pope put them in front ofchurches so that pilgrims could
find their way to the differentchurches, and the one by St John
(34:53):
Lateran, over by the baptistry,is the oldest one in Rome and I
just think it's an incredibletestament to Rome, to Christ,
that, yeah, the faith endures.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I personally like the one outside of Santa Maria,
sopra, minerva, that is on anelephant, but I do like all of
us.
We are fantastic.
Okay, so then, after we visitSt John Lateran and after, at
this point, we have walked along distance um, we have walked
(35:26):
10.4 miles.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Wow, okay, so I hope we're going someplace close now.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Oh my gosh, you were, so that was such a great lead
in it.
Cause this is less.
Well, it's actually 0.6 miles,so it is just about a half mile.
If you stop off and get a drinkof water on the way over, then
it won't even feel like a halfmile.
So just 13 minutes down the roadis none other than Santa Croce
in Jerusalem, which is thechurch which was constructed on
(36:01):
the palace of St Helen.
So St Helen is the mother ofConstantine.
She was Christian.
Her son Constantine was not,and then Constantine had this
vision.
And then Constantine putcrosses on the shields of his
soldiers and then won a greatvictory and then was very
partial to the Christians and onhis deathbed was baptized, and
(36:25):
his mother because Christianitywas now legal made several
pilgrimages to Jerusalem, whereshe brought back the holy stairs
which I talked about earlier.
She also brought back the crossthat Jesus was crucified upon,
and she brought an entire bargeof dirt back from the Holy Land
(36:46):
which she had her palace builtupon, which is why it's called
Santa Croce in Jerusalem,because the church of the Holy
cross is built in Jerusalem.
But you're really in Rome, butyou're in Jerusalem because this
barge of dirt ended up randomlyhere in Jerusalem, and so she
built the church on Jerusalemdirt in Rome.
Does that all sound like I'msaying what you've heard before?
(37:08):
Yes, I really am like a Rometour guide, aren't I?
Speaker 1 (37:11):
No, I love it.
Yeah, you are.
I fired our other tour guide sothat you could be our tour
guide.
Remember I do.
I love Santa Croce because it'sso often empty it is really
empty.
We have the relics of thepassion.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
We're so dumb they don't know, because they have
bad tour guys and becausethey're all italian tour guys,
and they don't know um but no,the italian tour guys are great
I love, I love irene um, she'smy favorite italian tour guy, um
, but anyways, um sonnyvirginia's lemme.
So not only does it have therelic of the true cross, it also
has, uh, thomas finger, whichwent to our Lord's side in his
(37:53):
hands, it has thorns from thecrown of thorns.
By the way, the actual crown ofthorns, of course, is in Notre
Dame, but they have some crowns,they have some thorns there.
They have the placard that wasabove Jesus' head when he was
crucified.
So just a lot of great relicsfor those of you who are relic
(38:15):
fans, which all of you should be.
So that's a big deal.
And they have a nail too right,oh, they have a nail, they have
one of the nails.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they do havea nail, you're right, it's
really powerful.
It.
Yeah, they do have a nail,you're right, so it's really
powerful.
It's like, yeah, it's a, really, and the way that they have the
relic set up, I think it'sreally prayerful as well,
because it's like a place youcan kneel, but you can also go
(38:35):
up and look at the the relicsreal close, and then they have a
beautiful shard of turindisplay, which I'm a sucker for
the shard of turin because it'strue and uh, it makes me happy,
so I really think that it'sawesome as well yeah and then
there's a there's a local.
There's a local girl here therewho's going to be a saint yeah,
I don't think she's theparishioners.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that'salways good, yeah, and then the
(38:58):
church outside is reallybeautiful, the just the basilica
, because that's all like an oldtown, old chapel, yeah, and
sometimes it's great becauselike mass is going on, you can
just go and it doesn't matteryou can just yeah, where they've
put the relics is really nice,because you can have this
prayerful experience no matterwhat's going on in the church.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Amen to that, yeah, okay.
So we're done in Jerusalem andwe're walking now to, oh my gosh
, this is great.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
So now we're going to go to the city of the dead.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, so that might sound a little creepy, but don't
worry, it's awesome.
So now we're going to go for a1.3 mile walk to San Lorenzo, uh
, outside the walls, fury LaMura, uh, so San Lorenzo is the
Basilica that um has has.
There's a lot of churches inrome named san lorenzo.
(39:55):
There's the church, uh, sanlorenzo panisperna, where he was
killed.
Then they have san lorenzo, uh,that has the grills itself, and
then this is actually wherehe's buried.
So this is the burial place ofsan lorenzo.
It also has, uh, saint stephen,saint justin, martyr, and pious
(40:18):
the ninth ninth, yeah, sothere's a lot of saints buried
in this church and it's a big,huge, huge ancient church, very
beautiful, and it's also rightnext to the Roman cemetery,
which is the city of the dead,and in Rome they don't bury
underground, they bury upground.
So there are all these big,huge monuments and mausoleums
(40:42):
where all these people areburied and their statues are
powerful, and visiting thecemetery itself is also just
very beautiful.
They're powerful, and visitingthe cemetery itself is also just
very beautiful.
And so, as North AmericanCollege, we own a mausoleum for
all of the seminarians orfaculty that would die in the
city of Rome and, you know priorto, like the convenience of air
(41:02):
travel, they would just beburied there.
There's actually a very famousseminarian whose cause is open
for canonization, frank Perriter, who I believe worked a miracle
on one of my classmates, philKime, who should have been dead,
and we prayed an Ovena to FrankPerriter and I went and had
masses said there and he's alive.
And so Frank Perriter if youdon't know anything about him,
(41:24):
he's really awesome.
He consecrated his life andoffered his sufferings up to the
Sacred Heart of Jesus and Ithink Pius, pius X and he's one
of the popes somehow found outabout this kid and actually
approved his act of consecrationthat he made to the Sacred
(41:44):
Heart of Jesus.
Look at all that, frankPerriter.
He's buried in the mausoleum.
I would try to get priests tosay Mass out there all the time
and I still believe that he'sgoing to be a saint someday and
I'll go to his canonization.
It'd be great because we're kindof friends.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
But anyway so St Lawrence, outside the wall, it's
very simple, like it's almostlike the stark contrast between
that and any of the otherchurches that you're going to go
to yeah it's really neat yeah,it's a really unique church
because it actually was twochurches and they were facing
opposite directions and so whatthey did was they put them
(42:17):
together and so there's no appsin the back.
That's just like one bigrectangular church and they're
kind of different levels and soit's just a really unique church
and you have this powerhouse oflike any permanent deacons or
transitional deacons should goon pilgrimage here, because you
have your, your deacon lawrenceand your deacon stephen, and
it's just like this powerhouseplace that again, very few
(42:38):
people yeah, very, very fewpeople go there.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
In fact, I had there was a young man that when I was
sitting over in rome, it was hislast day in rome and he was a
priest and he wanted to havemass there and so we went out
there for mass and we ended upsaying mass at the, like, the
principal altar, which is like10 feet up, like the, the
sanctuary is on a big, huge,huge platform.
Yeah, it was beautiful andthere was no one there.
(43:01):
No one even came in when wewere saying mass.
It was like we were saying massat a private chapel, even
though we were in one of thebasilicas it's a beautiful
church.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
It was also bombed by the allies in World War II.
We bombed it and so there'sactually they've kind of
preserved some of the damage.
On some of the columns theyhave an unexploded shell that
was a dud in the courtyard andPius XII famously went out there
to comfort the civilians thatwere affected.
So it's a really historic place.
(43:30):
It's one of my favoritechurches and no one ever talks
about it.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
You know, what's also important about this church is
the fact that this is where theexorcist of Rome has his office,
and I don't know if he but like.
So, Father Vince Lampert becamethe voice of exorcisms in the
United States of America.
He was every podcast that thereever was.
(43:53):
I don't know if he was on yourpodcast, but if you just like
Google Father Vince Lamper,he'll come up on every.
He wrote like multiple books,but he took his classes there
when he was mentored by theexorcist of Rome.
But that's where he would goevery day.
He had an office there andpeople would line up by the
exorcist of Rome, but that'swhere he would go every day.
He had an office there andpeople would line up that needed
exorcisms.
So it's also kind of a coolplace in that way, and visit the
(44:18):
city of the dead.
Okay, so then, once you visitedSt Lawrence, outside the wall,
you've got one place to go, andthere's always a great place to
crown everything.
We shall crown her with manycrowns.
So, uh, you're going to take a1.4 mile walk, which is about 40
minute walk, to none other thansanta maria maggiore, and santa
(44:40):
maria maggiore is the churchdedicated to the blessed virgin
mary in the city of rome, theEsquiline Hill.
Am I pronouncing that right?
Yes, and after the Council ofEphesus, when they declared that
Mary was the mother of God,there was snow on August 8th and
(45:09):
the Pope Sylvester, august 5th.
August 8th and the PopeSylvester, august 5th.
August 5th, pope Sylvester tookhis crozier and he traced the
outlines of the Basilica inhonor of Our Lady, and somehow
someone else saw it, becausewhen the snow melted, they still
know where to build the church,and it is a spectacular church.
(45:30):
It's very famous now, of course, because Pope Francis chose to
be buried in a doorway there,next to the chapel of Salvos
Populi Romani, which is a iconthat was painted by St Luke, who
is the evangelist and an artist, once again proving that
creative people should do theirthing, and it also has the body
(45:56):
of St Matthias in it.
It also has the crib of Jesusfrom Bethlehem in it and the
gold on the ceiling is fromChristopher Columbus, who
discovered America or howeveryou want to say that in 2025,
but the gold came from Americaand is on the ceiling there.
(46:19):
And yeah, it's just a beautiful,beautiful uh church Lots of
like, yeah, you could spend halfhour, 45 minutes just looking
at the doors onto this church,powerful images and yeah, so
that's church number seven, theBlessed Virgin Mary.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
That's quite a day.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yeah, it's quite a day.
I mean, you're exhausted.
At this point You're just likewhere is the gelato?
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yeah, that's a good segue.
Do you do the seven gelato walkimmediately after the seven
church walk, or is this anotherday?
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Okay, so I just quick .
Yeah, so the seven church walkis real and I had done it for
you know for however many yearsI was there and I don't know my
last year.
I was trying to, you know, befun and have fun.
So I decided that I was there,and I don't know my last year.
I was trying to be fun and havefun, so I decided that I was
going to host the first everseven gelateria walk and it
(47:16):
would be a walk to the sevenbest gelaterias in the city of
Rome and I had flyers and Iadvertised it and I think I had
five people that joined me andout of 180, that's okay, father
Tom Siddig was one of them.
Nice, I had some people thatjoined me for just like a few of
them, but they thought thewhole idea was kind of crazy.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
You walk it off.
You're hungry by the time youget to the next place.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
I will tell you that was not really the case.
It was painful.
Okay, it was painful, but itwas so worth it and I'm so glad
that I did it.
But yeah, we were all over theplace we went to.
We went to the old bridge overby the Vatican.
We were at the place by Campode Fiori that I loved.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
I think that was the first one we went to.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
It was the one by Campo de Fiori, and we went by
one by the Spanish Steps oh wow,so you walked a decent amount
to this.
Oh yeah, it wasn't just likeseven average a lot to realize
it was like, straight up, we hadto make it real, yeah and um,
yeah, it was uh, it was terriblygood.
So I think we shouldincorporate walking into
(48:31):
everything.
So seven grocery store walks,seven, just find seven things
and walk to them.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Why not seven?
Well, as we conclude, father,first of all thank you for your
introduction.
Like we're just scratching thesurface, on these churches too,
there's so much more we couldsay about each of these churches
, so, but thank you forbeginning to introduce us to it.
If someone said, why should Igo to Rome?
Like, like you're talking aboutthese churches, but I have
(48:59):
church down the street Jesus isdown the street why why Rome?
Why would you tell someone togo to Rome?
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Well, first of all, I do want to affirm the fact that
right down the road is Jesus inthe Lospice Sacrament.
You probably should go thereand ask him if he wants you to
go to Rome, so that's actuallyreally important.
However, going to Rome isreally important because the
relics of the saints are there,and so I think praying with
relics is powerful.
I also think the churcharchitecture is really, really
(49:29):
powerful, and seeing the beautyand the history of the church is
really powerful.
What I said at the beginning istrue, but I learned just as
much just from being in the cityof Rome that I learned in the
classroom.
So you can learn a lot oftheology and a lot about saints,
about the history of the churchand about what we believe just
by studying art and architecture, and I think they're a huge
(49:53):
untapped resource, and so,granted, we can just all like
look at it, be like, wow, that'snice, and then walk away, but
we can also look at it with aninquisitive heart like who is
that?
saint.
What did that saint do?
What did that saint?
What impact that in the church?
Why does this look this way?
You have to do the work, but Ithink it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I love the idea, like thewalking pilgrimage not everyone
who goes to Rome obviously cando the seven church walk, but
this idea that that travel andthat walking and that putting
our whole being into that it'snot just checking off a list,
but that we're going to theseholy places and praying and and
walking and using our bodies topray, and I think there's just
(50:36):
something.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
So I'm a I'm a runner by trade.
It's what I do.
I cross, I coach across the newtrack.
I love to run and I tell peoplethat if you can run and go to
one of these cities because thebest way to see a city is
actually running it's not on abus, it's not in a taxi, um, and
(50:57):
walking is great, but joggingand running is even better.
So, like, go to the sevenchurches, run, uh, that would be
amazing.
You know, run 14 miles and seeseven of the world's greatest
churches, like fantastic, right,yeah, and then you probably
could go to the joel atariasafterwards, um, yeah go to
chichile metella the nightbefore to carbo and then do the
seven church run I think weshould plan it.
(51:18):
Stracciatella, I think, is thename of the famous pasta they
have stracciatella,stracciatella, something like
that.
I know I'm pretty smart yeah,so that's great.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Well, thanks, father.
Do you have anything?
Final words, any last things?
Speaker 2 (51:30):
oh, if, you're going to rome, do the seven churches.
I tell people actually like, ifI am taking like a parish
pilgrimage to the city of rome,like I always just make sure
that that's like our itinerary,so we're going to see the seven
rangers, like this, because,yeah, worth it yeah, yeah, even
if you can't walk them, even ifoh yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Yeah, you know you're still a lot of people can't
walk them, but that's yeah, I'venever walked them in one day,
so they've just given mesomething for my bucket list
joan go to rome, because you cando it all in one day, like
that's the whole point yeah soyou just go a day earlier yeah,
okay, I'm gonna put it on mylist boom done it's like the but
(52:07):
in a city right and that'sthe's the thing.
15 miles a day, that's kind oflike your basic Camino day.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
Yeah, it's not the end of the world.
It's like a mini marathon.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Yeah, I could do that .
Speaker 2 (52:18):
It's not that bad.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
And you break it up.
Yeah, yeah, you break it upwith prayer.
Speaker 2 (52:23):
And gelato.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
And gelato and Cecilia Metella.
Well, thank you Father, thankyou listeners.
Share this with somebody.
Listeners who might be thinkingabout going to Rome might need
that extra nudge.
Share this with them so thatthey make that decision to go to
Rome if it's God's will.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Sounds fantastic.
God bless listeners.
Thank you, father Peace.
Do you want to experience thishistoric event in the life of
the church for yourself?
Whether you want to take agroup or you're just an
individual looking for a trip,verso Ministries can make that
dream a reality.
Visit versoministriescom slashjubilee for all our jubilee
(53:09):
dates and for more information.
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're
navigating the pilgrimage oflife.
We are all in via on the wayand we are learning a lot as we
go.
I'm your host, joan Watson.
Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn
more about our Catholic faith.
Along the way, we'll see thatif God seeks to meet us in
(00:21):
Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, healso wants to encounter you
right there in your car, on yourrun or in the middle of your
workday.
In today's episode, I ampleased to be joined with Father
Jonathan Meyer, a parish pastorof the Archdiocese of
Indianapolis.
Hi, father.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hello there, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I am great.
Father and I went to Rometogether.
Was that last summer, twosummers ago?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
No, it was two summers ago it was in 2003 for
World Youth Day.
In preparation for World YouthDay is the best way to say it.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
That's right, because World Youth Day obviously
wasn't in Rome, it was inPortugal.
But if you're going to takekids across the ocean, you
should probably take them toRome.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
However, going to Fatima was awesome, and taking
kids to World Youth Day ingeneral is always an awesome and
a great decision that allpeople should make, even if it's
in Asia.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
That's right.
We'll have you do a commercialfor Seoul pretty soon and why we
should go to World Youth Day.
But we went to Rome prior toWorld Youth Day in preparation
for World Youth Day, and fatherloves Rome.
Father, you studied in Rome.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I did.
I lived in Rome from 1999 to2003.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
So you were there for the 2000 Jubilee, which is
pretty awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I was there for the great Jubilee or 2000.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Did you know what you were getting into Like did you
know?
No, I didn't even know what aJubilee was.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I had no idea.
I was very ignorant and stillam in many ways in my catholic
faith and I had no idea, like,what that meant and I didn't
really know that all that muchabout pope john paul ii.
Really, uh, really, it was justa different era and time when
it comes to the internet andknowing things and but um yeah,
(02:04):
it was the best of times.
It really was.
I absolutely loved my time inRome and loved the opportunity
to have an internationaleducation and to just breathe in
the culture that is Rome.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
It is interesting to think like if we wanted to know
what John Paul II was saying, wehad to buy a book.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
You had to buy a book or subscribe to what used to be
known as a newspaper or amagazine.
These are pieces of paper thatwere glued together or folded
together and would arrive in amailbox that a postal deliverer
would carry, not an amazon bagand you would find out, like the
next week, what he said theweek earlier.
(02:43):
Yeah, very different world.
I think about even just likewith the election of Pope Leo
XIV, like we had to be likethere.
We lived in a world where somepeople wouldn't know there was a
new Pope for months.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, Like in the middle ages, you'd be praying
for this Holy Father andsomebody would come into your
town and be like oh, he's notPope anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
He died.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, holy father, and somebody'd come into your
town and be like oh, he's notpope anymore, actually, but we
knew it instantaneously.
Um, so when you were over therefor the jubilee 2000 did you
get to participate in some ofthe special jubilee events?
Like for like the opening or nowere you?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
yeah, I had.
Um, I had a friend that wasable to be, uh, with pope john
paul ii as he opened the doorsand he was one of the first ones
to walk through and he had,like, scribbled down the names
of all my family members andfriends and people I was praying
for at that time.
That was in his sport coat whenhe walked through and I yeah,
(03:37):
so I was there.
I made it a habit to go to StFrancis Basilica as much as I
possibly could, which ismultiple times a week.
To get to Syncretist Basilicaas much as I possibly could,
which is multiple times a week,to get the indulgence.
And I went to a lot of thecanonizations that took place
during the year 2000.
I was there for World Youth Day.
It was the first World YouthDay I attended in the year 2000
in the city of Rome and, yeah, Iwas there for all of it.
(04:01):
I was there when the Jubileedoor then closed.
Yeah, I lived it.
It was a dream.
What a gift.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
What a gift, and Father has never missed a World
Youth Day since, so I thinkthat's pretty awesome.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I am a junkie.
I'm looking for number four tonumber 10.
Number 10.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
So when we talk about the city of Rome, there is a
saint that sticks out in my mind.
People think of Peter and Paul,but there is a saint known as
the second apostle to Rome hekind of reconverted Rome and
that saint's Philip Neary.
And so I thought we could talkabout Philip Neary and a
tradition that he started orparticipated in.
I think he started it the sevenpilgrim church walk.
(04:39):
So, could you tell us maybe alittle bit about Philip Neary
and his connection to Rome, orwhatever you want to tell us
about Philip Neary?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So St Philip Neary was a very zealous man who just
wanted the conversion of Romeand he had seen how Rome had
fallen just into secular waysand secular things.
And he also looked at theclergy and he realized that many
of the priests were not livinggood, zealous lives and so he
wanted to bring together priestsand not ordained and have them
(05:10):
kind of just live a very zealousholy life and ultimately so he
founded what is now known as theOratory, which at its root is
the word Ora, which means topray, like Oramus or Ora et
Labora, and he believed incatechesis, he believed in
(05:30):
prayer.
And he also was like so manysaints, I think like saints we
should like look at them like inthe pious sense, but also just
like in the practical sense,like saints were very creative
sense, like saints were verycreative.
So St Francis of Assisi isattributed for bringing the
(05:50):
stations of the cross and thenativity scene.
That's creative, that'sartistic.
St Philip Neary was really avery he loved to engage culture.
So he would sit outside of pubsand taverns and he would listen
to the songs they were singingand then he would take the tunes
and the melodies but then hewould change and write his own
(06:13):
lyrics to them.
So he would take secular songsbut then write lyrics and teach
them to children on the streetso they would be singing about
Jesus.
Um, he loved.
There's actually a tree up onthe Janiculum Hill where he uh,
which is one of the hills in thecity room, and he would just do
outdoor catechesis.
(06:34):
So instead of having childrengo inside school buildings or
inside churches, he would docatechesis outside, uh, to meet
the children where they were at,where they were playing.
He believed deeply in prayer andin just celebrating Mass
reverently and piously.
He was actually known, verymuch so for falling into ecstasy
(06:55):
and mystical contemplationduring Mass, so much so that if
he needed to say Mass quickly,they would actually put chickens
into the chapel where he wascelebrating mass.
That would peck at his feetduring mass so they would be
distracted so that he would notbe in ecstasy, because the altar
servers were actually trainedto snuff the candles during the
(07:18):
elevations because he would holdup Jesus and then he would just
stand there for sometimes 30minutes before he would put
Jesus down.
So just a great, pious, lovingindividual.
He very much cared for the poor, had a huge heart for reaching
out to those who you know wereon the fringes of society.
(07:40):
And then he also is the one whoso we as Americans our country
is very new and we I alwaysthink this is really interesting
Like if you go to a historicalsite in America, like if you go
to Mount Vernon or Valley Forgewe'll have people in colonial
(08:00):
dress and we'll be speaking inBritish accents and they will,
and we, we restore our, we makesure that George Washington's
bedroom looks exactly as it did,and we have like grants and
foundations to make sure thatall these buildings will always
look amazing.
That's not the case over in inEurope, and in fact.
So what we think about thecatacombs?
(08:21):
The catacombs have beenabandoned.
No one was going to thecatacombs.
And that's why, if you go toRome, like the Colosseum is
falling down, it's continuingfalling down the Roman Forum,
like no one's ever going torebuild it, and have you like,
hey, this is what it looked likeand we're going to have people
in Toges telling you what it'slike.
No, you just show up and you'relike, yeah, there, and I really
(08:47):
don't know what this is andthere's no one to tell me about
it.
So, anyways, the catacombs havebeen abandoned and St Philip
Neri actually would go, kind oflike found his way into the
catacombs and he would go andpray in the chapels of the
saints and the martyrs, and itwas there that he prayed
fervently to the Holy Spirit forhis heart just to be caught on
fire with god's love, and hisheart actually expanded and
(09:09):
broke his rib cage and, um, thisis actually true, they did like
an autopsy after he died toprove the fact it's actually.
But anyways, his heart actuallyexpanded out of love for god
and he, yeah, just brought thislove out into the city and was
able to just draw people closeto the Lord, so much so that
people knew that he was a saintwhen he was living.
(09:30):
And so he tried.
He actually raised a girl fromthe dead, and there's a year
every year on the anniversary ofthe.
It's a private home where thegirl was raised from the dead,
and once a year on the day thatthis, the anniversary they
opened this home and mass iscelebrated in the home again and
people line up in the streetsthroughout Rome to go up into
(09:52):
the, into the room where theyoung girl was brought back to
life.
So then he they knew that hewas holy and he um.
So at one point he like shavedoff half of his beard so that he
would look like like he was,like he was crazy, so that
people would think that hewasn't holy, and so I shaved my
entire beard off today to letyou know that I am crazy as well
(10:14):
, but I'm really no.
But, yeah, so just a great guy.
But I go back to the idea oflike creative, because he
realized that what was happeningwasn't working.
You know, saying mass in churchalone wasn't engaging people.
It wasn't bringing people in, itwasn't meeting people where
(10:35):
they were at, and people neededsomething.
So he was willing to becreative and innovative, and
sometimes it's hard in thechurch to find people who are
creative.
It's hard to find people whoare innovative.
We want to do the same thingover and over again, expect
different results.
Well, some of you might knowthat's the definition of
insanity.
So St Philip Mary was thefarthest from insane and he
(10:57):
looked for creative ways to dothings differently.
And so the seven church walk,or the seven church pilgrimage,
is a way that he would engagepeople in a new, creative way to
bring them closer to Jesus.
How was that for anintroduction on I love it.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
I love it.
I mean I just I think this ideaof pilgrimage and he saw the
culture as needing thistransformation.
But he went into something theywere already doing, right, so
like there was a time ofcarnival and there was a time of
excess, and he's like I want tobring real community right.
So he didn't just take awaywhat people were doing I mean,
you mentioned that with thesongs, right.
(11:34):
He said let's have realChristian community and let's go
on pilgrimage and sing songsand have a picnic and have real
Christian joy.
I want to center this in history.
This is happening just postReformation.
So when Father mentionedthere's like excesses and the
priests aren't living, they'renot living celibacy, they're not
living poverty, they're notliving the Christian life.
What I love about Philip Nearyis, in some ways he just does it
(11:57):
right.
He just lives a Christian lifeand his witness is living a
joyful Christian life.
Like we can focus on himraising somebody from the dead
or his heart enlarging, but somuch of his work was just being
normal and Catholic and that'show he transformed culture and
so he just, yeah, lived theChristian life as we're called
(12:17):
to.
I think that's just such a goodreminder for us.
I think.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yep, totally agree.
I think we need to constantlybe asking that question and I
think, like we see people go tothe other extreme of like I want
to engage the culture, butultimately I'm ultimately is
living the culture.
It's, how do we appropriatelypermeate the culture with
authentic catholic truth?
(12:42):
That's and there can always bethat.
You know, it is easier to saywe're just going to stay inside
and chant beautiful things inLatin, like that's always safe,
yeah, but safe doesn't alwaysget you to the drunkards and the
people that are out in thestreets.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, yeah, the two extremes are easy.
It's easy to just avoid cultureor be part of culture.
And so how do we thread thatneedle of virtue in moderation
in the middle?
So they would go on pilgrimage,they would go to the catacombs
which he loved and he restored,and they would go to the four
major basilicas and they wouldgo to the minor basilicas, and
(13:22):
is there any?
Are any of the?
So there's seven churches.
Have you ever done this, father?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Oh my gosh, that is such a great question.
I have.
I have done the seven churchwalk multiple times, at least
four, maybe more, and then wewill also talk at some point,
joan, about the seven gelateriawalk, which I know is the real
reason that we're having thispodcast.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Okay, Listeners, stay tuned After we talk about
churches.
We are definitely talking aboutthat.
I'm making a note.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yes, I'd love to talk about the Seven Church Walk,
but I also love to talk aboutthe Seven Gelateria Walk, yeah,
(14:18):
that's going to hold peopleuntil the end of the episode.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So who does?
Can anybody do the Seven ChurchWalk?
Could I go do it right?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
now Anyone can do the seven church walk at any time
whenever there is a custom atthe North American College that
we would do the seven churchwalk normally on Tuesday of.
Holy Week and it was a big dealbecause this was you know
there'd be.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
I would probably say there's 180 seminaries at the
time.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I would say probably, there were probably close to
100 of us.
So you had 100 men between theage of like 23 and 26 wearing
clerics, walking through thecity of Rome going on pilgrimage
.
It was fantastic, it really was.
It was great.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
So I studied in Rome during Lent and there's another
tradition of the stationchurches which we can talk about
someday.
That's a whole other tradition.
That's a whole other tradition.
But it's morning mass and a lotof the guys would walk to the
different churches and evenseeing that and it was usually
much smaller groups was such atestament.
I mean, even in Rome, when yousee a bunch of people in clerics
all the time, there's somethingabout groups of men and clerics
(15:28):
walking with that purpose thatreally, really speaks.
So I can't imagine seeing 100guys walking out to the
catacombs.
So, how long would it take you?
We're talking a whole day thing.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
This is such a great question that you're asking
right now.
So in preparation for our talk,I did a little bit of research
and, if I look at my editionhere, give me just 10 seconds.
Yeah, it is about 14 milestotal in one day.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
And I have the mileage broken down, so if
someone wants to add this all up, they can do it later.
But so people can start atdifferent places.
You can start anywhere.
When we talk about the sevenchurches we're talking about,
there are seven churches you'regoing to go to eventually.
You can really start at any ofthem.
We would always start at StPeter's Basilica because we we
always just as men of the NorthAmerican college, we always had
(16:26):
a primacy of Peter and there wassomething very powerful for us
to start at the tomb of St Peterand also just having mass at St
Peter's is.
Back in those days it wasreally easy to do to have an
altar scheduled Of course StPhilip Neri would have begun at
Chiesa Nuova, which is veryclose to St Peter's Basilica.
(16:50):
It actually would be the closestchurch to Chiesa Nuova would be
St Peter's Basilica.
St Peter's Basilica andactually the distance between
where St Philip Martin Erieactually lived and the North
American college to St Peter'sBasilica are probably almost
equidistant, but just a fewminute walk from those places.
But St Peter's Basilica, Ithink you know, I mean a lot of
(17:12):
people were watching St Peter'sBasilica the last, you know, few
months.
And I think people are stillinterested, so they're still
like up what Leo is doing andwhat is he going to do.
I think St Peter's Basilica canbe overlooked of what St
Peter's is really about.
So primarily St Peter'sBasilica is the mausoleum of St
(17:34):
Peter, the reason why St Peter's?
Basilica is St Peter's Basilicais because it is built directly
over the tomb of St Peterhimself, and that is why it is
where it is at and that is whythe word Vatican exists.
The Vatican predatesChristianity.
The word Vatican was a piece ofproperty that had a cemetery
(17:57):
already on it prior to the deathof St Peter, and it's where the
Emperor Nero had a circus, alarge amphitheater that had been
constructed, that was used forchariot games and ultimately for
the execution of Christians.
It's where Peter and Paul weremocked and then Peter was
ultimately crucified upside downand was buried right next in
(18:24):
the Vatican Cemetery.
So, anyways, the St Peter'sBasilica is built directly above
the bones of St Peter and thearchaeological work behind that
is spectacular.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
We actually had an episode with your classmate,
Father Thomas Sidlick, to talkabout.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Talk about this I have no doubt that there is a
very smart macker that hasalready been on here who was
given the uh honor of being ascabby tour guide while in the
city of rome.
So anyways, if you haven't donethat, check out that other
podcast, because theauthenticity of that is really
powerful that there are thebones of a 70 year old man who
has no feet because he wascrucified upside down.
(19:00):
That is buried directly underthe high papal altar there in
san peter so anyways we alwayswould start with mass and then I
led some college groups onthese pilgrimages and I would
always like teach him a littlesong and then we would sing and
say prayers in the basilica andum, yeah.
So then you would begin what isgoing to be your longest
journey.
So once again, you could goanother route, but the route
(19:22):
that we would always take is wewould just be like we're going
to do the longest one from thatpoint on.
So from St Peter's you're goingto walk 5.1 miles to St Paul's,
outside the wall.
Now, the other reason why Ithink it's great to go directly
(19:43):
from St Peter to St Paul's is tomake that direct connection to
St Peter and Paul being the twoapostles of the city of Rome.
But it is a long walk.
It's a 5.1 mile walk.
You walk along the Tiber River,for the most part.
Until you pass the island of StBartholomew, you keep walking,
you keep walking.
Eventually you're going to takea left, crossing a bridge, and
(20:03):
the walk takes about an hour anda half.
So we would normally pray therosary and just like do kind of
other devotions and just evenjust like talk like normal
people as we were going alongthe way.
St Paul's is spectacular.
I really I was just talking toa good friend of mine and we
(20:25):
were talking about how St Paul'soutside the wall.
And the reason why it's calledSt Paul's outside the wall is
that during the time of themartyrdom of St Paul, it was not
inside the city.
The Via Appia, and where he wasbeheaded in a place called Tre
Fontane, was outside the city ofRome.
(20:47):
So if someone goes, like if Iwas going to say hey, I'm going
to Rome next week, do not missgoing to St Paul outside the
wall.
It is such a powerful andbeautiful church building and I
can't yeah, I mean St Paul isburied there, but this is the
(21:10):
famous church that has thepicture of all the popes that
are, like a border, along thetop of the basilica and, yeah,
it's just spectacular.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Even though it's the newest, because it was rebuilt
after it burned down, it looksthe oldest like it.
I think it gives you the bestidea of what the original saint
peter's looked like and whatlike the roman basilica looks
like, and that's why it's one ofmy favorites I like it as well
because it really is so simple.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yes, not to put down.
I mean, the saint peter's isamazing, but it really is simple
where you know, at saintpeter's, there's like statues in
every pillar there's twostatues in every single pillar
and there's shrines everywhereand there's so many side altars.
And where at saint paul's, it'spretty simple.
It's like here's the confessiowhere we believe that paul is
(21:56):
buried, and here's the change ofsaint paul and here's the papal
altar and here's the Confessiowhere we believe that Paul is
buried, and here's the change ofSt Paul and here's the papal
altar and here's three otheraltars.
But that's about it and so it'sjust very, it's very, yeah, very
powerful.
Okay, so now we've walked 5.1miles.
That's been a long walk.
(22:16):
We've rested a little bit at StPaul's we paid money to use the
bathrooms there.
And it's been a long walk.
We've rested a little bit at StPaul's, we paid money to use
the bathrooms there and nowwe're like, okay, we have to now
go to St Sebastian.
Now, the neat thing about goingto St Sebastian is that that is
where Philip Neary I think, yeah, very much of the heart of
Philip Neary can be united tobecause of his mystical
(22:38):
experiences that he had there uh, can be united to because of
his mystical experiences that hehad there.
So the walk from St Paul's toSt uh Sebastian is about 2.2
miles.
So it's about a mile.
It was about an hour long uhwalk to get there and the
catacombs of St Sebastian.
By the way, when we were therefor world youth day, I was super
(22:59):
excited because we had anamazing tour guide that was from
America and I forget where hewas from in America, but he was
from America and he was really,really great.
But the catacombs of StSebastian are fantastic.
There are hundreds of miles ofcatacombs under the city of Rome
(23:20):
, and the catacombs of StCallistus are very famous as
well.
I would say probably thecatacombs of St Callistus and
the catacombs of St Sebastianwould be like the top two that
are most visited.
Is that probably right?
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Probably.
There's Priscilla north of town, but most people don't go there
.
I would say you're absolutelyright.
Those two are probably the mostfrequented by tourists.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yes, so the catacombs of St Sebastian are fantastic
and the basilica up top isreally really awesome as well.
So there are the four majorbasilicas Peter Paul Mary by the
way, that's where the band gottheir name from Peter Paul and
Mary, peter Paul Mary, and thenSt John Lateran.
(23:59):
Those are the four major, andthen the three minor are St
Sebastian, santa Croce andJerusalem, and then St Lawrence
outside the wall.
So those three are right thereand so, yeah, I always just tell
people to take their time inthe catacombs, because it's just
(24:24):
such a powerful experience.
I don't even know how to explainif you've never been to the
catacombs.
There's so many different waysthat you can be fascinated the
fact that human hands did thiswith no excavation equipment,
that they would have beenscraping this out by hand, and
somehow they dug all theseunderground caverns and you see
(24:46):
all the niches on the wall wherebodies would have been laid,
and it's, it's.
It's such a fascinatingexperience, uh so I tell people
to just take your time, breatheit in deeply and don't rush.
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
It's so many young men, by theway.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
It's amazing from engineering and religion.
Like you can have an amazingengineering marvel and then the
fact that they were celebratingmass, like yeah, there's
multi-levels.
I think it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Every time I go I have so many young men that have
chosen St Sebastian as theirconfirmation saint and to have
them there and to pray in thelittle chapel grotto area of St
Sebastian is really powerful.
Yeah, it's just really reallyneat.
And then in the basilica theupper basilica of the church,
(25:36):
they have a little shrine thereof Quo Vadis church.
They have a little shrine thereof Quo Vadis, which is a chapel
that you're going to thenencounter on the next little
journey.
But the Quo Vadis Chapel is asmall little shrine where St
Peter, who was a coward and whodenied our Lord on Holy Thursday
(25:58):
night in Jerusalem Lord, onHoly Thursday night in Jerusalem
he's now in the city of Rome.
Rome is burning down, theChristians are all being
persecuted and Peter turns intoa coward again.
And so Peter starts running outof the city to save his life
and he has a mystical vision ofJesus and Jesus is going into
(26:19):
the city carrying a cross on hisshoulders and Peter says Quo
vadis Domini, where are yougoing, lord, quo vadis?
And Jesus says I'm going to thecity to be crucified again.
And Peter's like, oh crap.
I did this once.
I'm going to turn around.
So Peter turns around and goesback into the city, is
(26:39):
ultimately arrested and thencrucified upside down, but in
the church of the Zillow of StSebastian.
So it's believed that when ourLord appeared to Peter, that our
Lord's feet were imprinted intothe ground.
Now, when you live, if you evergo to Rome, there are stories
(27:05):
that are true and there'sstories that should be true, and
you should never make adistinction, ever.
So these feet are on displayand they're sticking awesome
because it's Jesus' footprints.
So you can like people are likeI got Sasquatch and like
Bigfoot that's stupid.
These are Jesus's footprints.
So you can like people like arelike I got a Sasquatch and like
a Bigfoot and like that'sstupid.
These are Jesus's footprintsand they're they're, they're
awesome.
(27:25):
So you can see those.
The real ones are in theBasilica of St Sebastian.
They took them out of thechapel.
I don't know why they did, butthey did, I think because the
chapel is maybe the less securebecause the chapel on the, on
the road there where the Quavadisoup place, I think it's just
like open all the time.
I could be wrong, I don't knowif that's really true.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
It's a little dangerous to get there.
It's a little less traveled, soit's nice to put them someplace
where people can see them moreoften.
Maybe yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yeah.
So, now, if you're from theNorth American college, we would
stop after going to theBasilica of St Sebastian because
we had had mass and we hadwalked two hours, two and a half
(28:14):
hours, and it was time to eat.
So we would always eat ourlunch.
Now, in the days of PhilipNeary, he would encourage people
to bring a picnic lunch withthem, and it is believed that
they would have picnic lunchesoutside of San Sebastiano.
Now I don't know if that'sreally true or not, but I like
to believe because it soundsreally picturesque.
(28:35):
We would go to an Italianrestaurant called Cile Matt, um,
which is, uh, just a smalllittle Italian joint there, and
we would make reservations andthen the really pious knack
seminarians that refused thiswould eat a sack lunch outside,
um, because they were trying todo penance and, uh, they thought
(28:57):
we were being foolish foreating outside.
So, anyways, after our pranzo,we would then walk from St
Sebastian or San Sebastiano toSt John Lateran Now, st John
Lateran.
This is a 5k, exactly 3.1 miles.
So now, what's interestingabout this is that I want you to
(29:21):
think about what you do onThanksgiving morning.
You might go out and run a walkof 5k, run a 5k.
So this is about an hour.
If you're a runner, you can getit done in 16 to 20 minutes or
25 minutes, whatever, but it is3.1 miles from St Sebastian to
St John Lateran and it is abeautiful walk, particularly
after you've had a great pranzoand you know it's great.
(29:45):
So, what's awesome about St JohnLateran is that St John Lateran
is the cathedral church of thewhole entire world, so people
really like St Peter's Basilica.
They think it's really awesome,which they should.
But St Peter's Basilica is notthe cathedral church of the
whole entire world.
St Peter is just the mausoleumof the first Pope, st Peter.
(30:08):
St John Lateran is the cathedralchurch of the whole entire
world, so it has the chair ofthe Pope, and this is the church
that St Francis of Assisiwalked to, from Assisi to have
the rule of St Francis approvedby the Pope, so there's actually
(30:31):
a picture of that.
Next to the chair, also insidethis church, is a relic that's
really powerful.
It is the table that theycelebrated the last supper on,
so the first mass that werecelebrated.
That's above the tabernacle.
So you have the chair of thepope, you have.
This is the place where franciswent, uh, to have the rule
approved by pope urban, and thenyou also, I think, pope urban I
(30:55):
could be wrong on that.
I'm wrong on that I think,honorius honorius.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yes, it's pope, honorius thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
And then it also has the table of saint of from the
last supper from the upper room,because why would you not have
that, um?
And then they claim to have, um, bone fragments of the heads of
both peter and paul in thealtarpiece and of course they do
(31:23):
, because why would they not?
And then the other thing that'sawesome about St John's is that
all of the pillars in thechurch have an apostle in them.
So the church is, when we talkabout apostolic church, like the
church is being held up by theapostles, and that's awesome.
And then, above those images,are old testament images and new
testament images, um, makingtypology references from the old
(31:46):
testament, the new testamentbeing fulfilled, and uh, it's
just awesome.
And the floor is amazing.
Uh, it's just a fantasticchurch.
It's a great cathedral.
I mean, like if I was, if I wasthe pope, I'd be like man, you
should make this a cathedral.
It's pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Would you go back over there and live there again?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Would I go back over there and live there again.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
No, if you were Pope, would you go back to John
Lateran, because it's just thismodern invention that the Popes
live in the Vatican.
I kind of want him to go backover to John Lateran, no I don't
even want to answer thatquestion no-transcript college.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Oh, okay, fair enough I could get some.
Yeah, um, okay, I let's talkabout some other things, about
saint john ladder can you tellus who St John Lateran is Father
?
So St John Lateran is theLaterino family who donated the
property, but it's actuallyconsecrated to St John the
Baptist and St John theEvangelist.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
So it's actually Don't pray to St John Lateran.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
What'd you say?
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Don't pray to St John Lateran.
There is no St John Lateran.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
But it's dedicated to St John the Baptist and St John
the Evangelist and it has avery famous baptistry.
Baptisms were not doneoriginally in the church
buildings.
Baptisteries were like separatechurch buildings and there's a
very famous one there whichpeople like to go to.
It's in the shape of an octagonfor the eighth day, the day of
eternity.
So it's very exciting theeighth day, the day of eternity.
(33:21):
So it's very exciting.
Now, very close to St John theLadder, in fact, right across
the street, is the Scala Sancta,which, if you're going to go to
St John Ladder and if you'regoing to this pilgrimage, you
need to absolutely go to theScala Sancta, because those are,
without a doubt, these stepsthat Jesus walked up and down on
Good Friday when he wascondemned by Pilate.
(33:41):
And St Helen, who we'll talkabout in a second, who was the
mother of Emperor Constantine,had those stairs from the
Praetorium disassembled inJerusalem and shipped to Italy
and they were installed in achurch and you can go up them on
your knees and it is powerful,and so I always do that, and I
(34:02):
always tell everybody to do it,and it's amazing, and that is
such a great grace.
There's also beautiful statuesof Jesus being condemned at
Jehovah and of the Garden ofGethsemane that are there, and
there's a beautiful chapel withsome ancient icons up at the top
(34:22):
.
So, scala Sancta, when you'refacing St John Lattern, it's to
your right.
If you're walking out of StJohn Lattern, it's on your left,
but totally worth going to Did.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I miss anything, I think you covered it.
My favorite obelisk is outsideSt John Lattern too, because
it's so old that Moses wouldhave seen it, because the Roman
emperors brought all the.
They brought all these obelisksfrom Egypt to Rome and then the
Pope put them in front ofchurches so that pilgrims could
find their way to the differentchurches, and the one by St John
(34:53):
Lateran, over by the baptistry,is the oldest one in Rome and I
just think it's an incredibletestament to Rome, to Christ,
that, yeah, the faith endures.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I personally like the one outside of Santa Maria,
sopra, minerva, that is on anelephant, but I do like all of
us.
We are fantastic.
Okay, so then, after we visitSt John Lateran and after, at
this point, we have walked along distance um, we have walked
(35:26):
10.4 miles.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Wow, okay, so I hope we're going someplace close now.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Oh my gosh, you were, so that was such a great lead
in it.
Cause this is less.
Well, it's actually 0.6 miles,so it is just about a half mile.
If you stop off and get a drinkof water on the way over, then
it won't even feel like a halfmile.
So just 13 minutes down the roadis none other than Santa Croce
in Jerusalem, which is thechurch which was constructed on
(36:01):
the palace of St Helen.
So St Helen is the mother ofConstantine.
She was Christian.
Her son Constantine was not,and then Constantine had this
vision.
And then Constantine putcrosses on the shields of his
soldiers and then won a greatvictory and then was very
partial to the Christians and onhis deathbed was baptized, and
(36:25):
his mother because Christianitywas now legal made several
pilgrimages to Jerusalem, whereshe brought back the holy stairs
which I talked about earlier.
She also brought back the crossthat Jesus was crucified upon,
and she brought an entire bargeof dirt back from the Holy Land
(36:46):
which she had her palace builtupon, which is why it's called
Santa Croce in Jerusalem,because the church of the Holy
cross is built in Jerusalem.
But you're really in Rome, butyou're in Jerusalem because this
barge of dirt ended up randomlyhere in Jerusalem, and so she
built the church on Jerusalemdirt in Rome.
Does that all sound like I'msaying what you've heard before?
(37:08):
Yes, I really am like a Rometour guide, aren't I?
Speaker 1 (37:11):
No, I love it.
Yeah, you are.
I fired our other tour guide sothat you could be our tour
guide.
Remember I do.
I love Santa Croce because it'sso often empty it is really
empty.
We have the relics of thepassion.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
We're so dumb they don't know, because they have
bad tour guys and becausethey're all italian tour guys,
and they don't know um but no,the italian tour guys are great
I love, I love irene um, she'smy favorite italian tour guy, um
, but anyways, um sonnyvirginia's lemme.
So not only does it have therelic of the true cross, it also
has, uh, thomas finger, whichwent to our Lord's side in his
(37:53):
hands, it has thorns from thecrown of thorns.
By the way, the actual crown ofthorns, of course, is in Notre
Dame, but they have some crowns,they have some thorns there.
They have the placard that wasabove Jesus' head when he was
crucified.
So just a lot of great relicsfor those of you who are relic
(38:15):
fans, which all of you should be.
So that's a big deal.
And they have a nail too right,oh, they have a nail, they have
one of the nails.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they do havea nail, you're right, it's
really powerful.
It.
Yeah, they do have a nail,you're right, so it's really
powerful.
It's like, yeah, it's a, really, and the way that they have the
relic set up, I think it'sreally prayerful as well,
because it's like a place youcan kneel, but you can also go
(38:35):
up and look at the the relicsreal close, and then they have a
beautiful shard of turindisplay, which I'm a sucker for
the shard of turin because it'strue and uh, it makes me happy,
so I really think that it'sawesome as well yeah and then
there's a there's a local.
There's a local girl here therewho's going to be a saint yeah,
I don't think she's theparishioners.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that'salways good, yeah, and then the
(38:58):
church outside is reallybeautiful, the just the basilica
, because that's all like an oldtown, old chapel, yeah, and
sometimes it's great becauselike mass is going on, you can
just go and it doesn't matteryou can just yeah, where they've
put the relics is really nice,because you can have this
prayerful experience no matterwhat's going on in the church.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Amen to that, yeah, okay.
So we're done in Jerusalem andwe're walking now to, oh my gosh
, this is great.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
So now we're going to go to the city of the dead.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, so that might sound a little creepy, but don't
worry, it's awesome.
So now we're going to go for a1.3 mile walk to San Lorenzo, uh
, outside the walls, fury LaMura, uh, so San Lorenzo is the
Basilica that um has has.
There's a lot of churches inrome named san lorenzo.
(39:55):
There's the church, uh, sanlorenzo panisperna, where he was
killed.
Then they have san lorenzo, uh,that has the grills itself, and
then this is actually wherehe's buried.
So this is the burial place ofsan lorenzo.
It also has, uh, saint stephen,saint justin, martyr, and pious
(40:18):
the ninth ninth, yeah, sothere's a lot of saints buried
in this church and it's a big,huge, huge ancient church, very
beautiful, and it's also rightnext to the Roman cemetery,
which is the city of the dead,and in Rome they don't bury
underground, they bury upground.
So there are all these big,huge monuments and mausoleums
(40:42):
where all these people areburied and their statues are
powerful, and visiting thecemetery itself is also just
very beautiful.
They're powerful, and visitingthe cemetery itself is also just
very beautiful.
And so, as North AmericanCollege, we own a mausoleum for
all of the seminarians orfaculty that would die in the
city of Rome and, you know priorto, like the convenience of air
(41:02):
travel, they would just beburied there.
There's actually a very famousseminarian whose cause is open
for canonization, frank Perriter, who I believe worked a miracle
on one of my classmates, philKime, who should have been dead,
and we prayed an Ovena to FrankPerriter and I went and had
masses said there and he's alive.
And so Frank Perriter if youdon't know anything about him,
(41:24):
he's really awesome.
He consecrated his life andoffered his sufferings up to the
Sacred Heart of Jesus and Ithink Pius, pius X and he's one
of the popes somehow found outabout this kid and actually
approved his act of consecrationthat he made to the Sacred
(41:44):
Heart of Jesus.
Look at all that, frankPerriter.
He's buried in the mausoleum.
I would try to get priests tosay Mass out there all the time
and I still believe that he'sgoing to be a saint someday and
I'll go to his canonization.
It'd be great because we're kindof friends.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
But anyway so St Lawrence, outside the wall, it's
very simple, like it's almostlike the stark contrast between
that and any of the otherchurches that you're going to go
to yeah it's really neat yeah,it's a really unique church
because it actually was twochurches and they were facing
opposite directions and so whatthey did was they put them
(42:17):
together and so there's no appsin the back.
That's just like one bigrectangular church and they're
kind of different levels and soit's just a really unique church
and you have this powerhouse oflike any permanent deacons or
transitional deacons should goon pilgrimage here, because you
have your, your deacon lawrenceand your deacon stephen, and
it's just like this powerhouseplace that again, very few
(42:38):
people yeah, very, very fewpeople go there.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
In fact, I had there was a young man that when I was
sitting over in rome, it was hislast day in rome and he was a
priest and he wanted to havemass there and so we went out
there for mass and we ended upsaying mass at the, like, the
principal altar, which is like10 feet up, like the, the
sanctuary is on a big, huge,huge platform.
Yeah, it was beautiful andthere was no one there.
(43:01):
No one even came in when wewere saying mass.
It was like we were saying massat a private chapel, even
though we were in one of thebasilicas it's a beautiful
church.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
It was also bombed by the allies in World War II.
We bombed it and so there'sactually they've kind of
preserved some of the damage.
On some of the columns theyhave an unexploded shell that
was a dud in the courtyard andPius XII famously went out there
to comfort the civilians thatwere affected.
So it's a really historic place.
(43:30):
It's one of my favoritechurches and no one ever talks
about it.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
You know, what's also important about this church is
the fact that this is where theexorcist of Rome has his office,
and I don't know if he but like.
So, Father Vince Lampert becamethe voice of exorcisms in the
United States of America.
He was every podcast that thereever was.
(43:53):
I don't know if he was on yourpodcast, but if you just like
Google Father Vince Lamper,he'll come up on every.
He wrote like multiple books,but he took his classes there
when he was mentored by theexorcist of Rome.
But that's where he would goevery day.
He had an office there andpeople would line up by the
exorcist of Rome, but that'swhere he would go every day.
He had an office there andpeople would line up that needed
exorcisms.
So it's also kind of a coolplace in that way, and visit the
(44:18):
city of the dead.
Okay, so then, once you visitedSt Lawrence, outside the wall,
you've got one place to go, andthere's always a great place to
crown everything.
We shall crown her with manycrowns.
So, uh, you're going to take a1.4 mile walk, which is about 40
minute walk, to none other thansanta maria maggiore, and santa
(44:40):
maria maggiore is the churchdedicated to the blessed virgin
mary in the city of rome, theEsquiline Hill.
Am I pronouncing that right?
Yes, and after the Council ofEphesus, when they declared that
Mary was the mother of God,there was snow on August 8th and
(45:09):
the Pope Sylvester, august 5th.
August 8th and the PopeSylvester, august 5th.
August 5th, pope Sylvester tookhis crozier and he traced the
outlines of the Basilica inhonor of Our Lady, and somehow
someone else saw it, becausewhen the snow melted, they still
know where to build the church,and it is a spectacular church.
(45:30):
It's very famous now, of course, because Pope Francis chose to
be buried in a doorway there,next to the chapel of Salvos
Populi Romani, which is a iconthat was painted by St Luke, who
is the evangelist and an artist, once again proving that
creative people should do theirthing, and it also has the body
(45:56):
of St Matthias in it.
It also has the crib of Jesusfrom Bethlehem in it and the
gold on the ceiling is fromChristopher Columbus, who
discovered America or howeveryou want to say that in 2025,
but the gold came from Americaand is on the ceiling there.
(46:19):
And yeah, it's just a beautiful,beautiful uh church Lots of
like, yeah, you could spend halfhour, 45 minutes just looking
at the doors onto this church,powerful images and yeah, so
that's church number seven, theBlessed Virgin Mary.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
That's quite a day.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yeah, it's quite a day.
I mean, you're exhausted.
At this point You're just likewhere is the gelato?
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yeah, that's a good segue.
Do you do the seven gelato walkimmediately after the seven
church walk, or is this anotherday?
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Okay, so I just quick .
Yeah, so the seven church walkis real and I had done it for
you know for however many yearsI was there and I don't know my
last year.
I was trying to, you know, befun and have fun.
So I decided that I was there,and I don't know my last year.
I was trying to be fun and havefun, so I decided that I was
going to host the first everseven gelateria walk and it
(47:16):
would be a walk to the sevenbest gelaterias in the city of
Rome and I had flyers and Iadvertised it and I think I had
five people that joined me andout of 180, that's okay, father
Tom Siddig was one of them.
Nice, I had some people thatjoined me for just like a few of
them, but they thought thewhole idea was kind of crazy.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
You walk it off.
You're hungry by the time youget to the next place.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
I will tell you that was not really the case.
It was painful.
Okay, it was painful, but itwas so worth it and I'm so glad
that I did it.
But yeah, we were all over theplace we went to.
We went to the old bridge overby the Vatican.
We were at the place by Campode Fiori that I loved.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
I think that was the first one we went to.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
It was the one by Campo de Fiori, and we went by
one by the Spanish Steps oh wow,so you walked a decent amount
to this.
Oh yeah, it wasn't just likeseven average a lot to realize
it was like, straight up, we hadto make it real, yeah and um,
yeah, it was uh, it was terriblygood.
So I think we shouldincorporate walking into
(48:31):
everything.
So seven grocery store walks,seven, just find seven things
and walk to them.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Why not seven?
Well, as we conclude, father,first of all thank you for your
introduction.
Like we're just scratching thesurface, on these churches too,
there's so much more we couldsay about each of these churches
, so, but thank you forbeginning to introduce us to it.
If someone said, why should Igo to Rome?
Like, like you're talking aboutthese churches, but I have
(48:59):
church down the street Jesus isdown the street why why Rome?
Why would you tell someone togo to Rome?
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Well, first of all, I do want to affirm the fact that
right down the road is Jesus inthe Lospice Sacrament.
You probably should go thereand ask him if he wants you to
go to Rome, so that's actuallyreally important.
However, going to Rome isreally important because the
relics of the saints are there,and so I think praying with
relics is powerful.
I also think the churcharchitecture is really, really
(49:29):
powerful, and seeing the beautyand the history of the church is
really powerful.
What I said at the beginning istrue, but I learned just as
much just from being in the cityof Rome that I learned in the
classroom.
So you can learn a lot oftheology and a lot about saints,
about the history of the churchand about what we believe just
by studying art and architecture, and I think they're a huge
(49:53):
untapped resource, and so,granted, we can just all like
look at it, be like, wow, that'snice, and then walk away, but
we can also look at it with aninquisitive heart like who is
that?
saint.
What did that saint do?
What did that saint?
What impact that in the church?
Why does this look this way?
You have to do the work, but Ithink it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I love the idea, like thewalking pilgrimage not everyone
who goes to Rome obviously cando the seven church walk, but
this idea that that travel andthat walking and that putting
our whole being into that it'snot just checking off a list,
but that we're going to theseholy places and praying and and
walking and using our bodies topray, and I think there's just
(50:36):
something.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
So I'm a I'm a runner by trade.
It's what I do.
I cross, I coach across the newtrack.
I love to run and I tell peoplethat if you can run and go to
one of these cities because thebest way to see a city is
actually running it's not on abus, it's not in a taxi, um, and
(50:57):
walking is great, but joggingand running is even better.
So, like, go to the sevenchurches, run, uh, that would be
amazing.
You know, run 14 miles and seeseven of the world's greatest
churches, like fantastic, right,yeah, and then you probably
could go to the joel atariasafterwards, um, yeah go to
chichile metella the nightbefore to carbo and then do the
seven church run I think weshould plan it.
(51:18):
Stracciatella, I think, is thename of the famous pasta they
have stracciatella,stracciatella, something like
that.
I know I'm pretty smart yeah,so that's great.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Well, thanks, father.
Do you have anything?
Final words, any last things?
Speaker 2 (51:30):
oh, if, you're going to rome, do the seven churches.
I tell people actually like, ifI am taking like a parish
pilgrimage to the city of rome,like I always just make sure
that that's like our itinerary,so we're going to see the seven
rangers, like this, because,yeah, worth it yeah, yeah, even
if you can't walk them, even ifoh yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Yeah, you know you're still a lot of people can't
walk them, but that's yeah, I'venever walked them in one day,
so they've just given mesomething for my bucket list
joan go to rome, because you cando it all in one day, like
that's the whole point yeah soyou just go a day earlier yeah,
okay, I'm gonna put it on mylist boom done it's like the but
(52:07):
in a city right and that'sthe's the thing.
15 miles a day, that's kind oflike your basic Camino day.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
Yeah, it's not the end of the world.
It's like a mini marathon.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Yeah, I could do that .
Speaker 2 (52:18):
It's not that bad.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
And you break it up.
Yeah, yeah, you break it upwith prayer.
Speaker 2 (52:23):
And gelato.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
And gelato and Cecilia Metella.
Well, thank you Father, thankyou listeners.
Share this with somebody.
Listeners who might be thinkingabout going to Rome might need
that extra nudge.
Share this with them so thatthey make that decision to go to
Rome if it's God's will.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Sounds fantastic.
God bless listeners.
Thank you, father Peace.
Do you want to experience thishistoric event in the life of
the church for yourself?
Whether you want to take agroup or you're just an
individual looking for a trip,verso Ministries can make that
dream a reality.
Visit versoministriescom slashjubilee for all our jubilee
(53:09):
dates and for more information.
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