Podcasting Power Hour: The Future of Podcasting with Dave Jones of Podcasting 2.0 and The Podcast Index

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
What you're gonna do, brother,when Jeff Townsend Media runs wild on you.
Have you been searching for a podcast? Do you want to learn from
some great content creators? Well you'vecome to the right place Indie Podcaster with
your host Jeff Townsend, the Indiepodcast Father. All right, all right,

(00:29):
all right, this is Jeff Townsend. Thank you for checking out another
episode of Indie Podcaster. This podcastis made for podcasters and other content creators.
Certainly don't consider myself a guru,or either do any of my friends
that will be featured in these episodes. But what we do like to do
is talk content creation, pick eachother's brains, and have a good time.
I'm proud to mention that this podcastis sponsored by Indie drop In.

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Now, let me tell you somethingabout Indie Dropping. This is an awesome
network that my friend Greg has created. What he does is drop episodes from
independent content creator into his established podcastaudience on his feed, and he shares
your episodes to an audience that alreadyexists. Yes, it's like free advertisement
promotion for your podcast. He spenta lot of time, money, and
effort building it, and he alreadyhas an audience interested in the content,

(01:15):
and he can certainly help you bysharing your content is great promotion. Go
to indie drop in dot com slashcreators and check it out. If you're
a comedy, true crime, paranormal, for various other different kinds of podcasts,
you can benefit from this. SoI really encourage you once again go
to indie drop in dot com slashcreators and see if you can get your
stuff featured on indie drop in.We'll go back to the podcast here Indie

(01:38):
Podcasters. So what we've currently beendoing is sharing content from three different projects
that I'm involved in. The firstis Good Morning Podcasters with my good friend
Fuzz Martin. We also do somecontent on podcasting Sucks, and then in
these episodes you will also hear somecontent from podcasting Power Hour. Podcasting Power
Hour is a live thing we doon Twitter spaces. We get a whole
bunch of great podcast minds together wetalk podcasting. So if you're a content

(02:01):
creator a podcaster, I think you'lltake something away from every episode of the
content I'm going to share with you. With that being said, make sure
you check out Eddie drop in andmake sure you enjoy this episode. I
think it's important that we all continueto learn and grow every day, and
that will help us become even bettercontent creators. That's certainly what I try
to do, learn something new everyday. I'm excited to share this content

(02:22):
with you. I think it'll bea learning experience for you. Let's get
to this episode, and I hopeyou have a great time listening to it.
Welcome to Podcasting Power Hour with yourhost, Jeff Townsend, aka the
Indie podcast Father. I'm your cohost Greg from Indie Dropping Network. Podcasting

(02:52):
Power Hour is recorded live every Mondayat nine am Eastern Time on Twitter spaces
every week, an experienced panel ofpodcasters and other experts over pack of your
podcasts and questions. We will ofcourse put links to all of our guests
and anyrrelevant information in the show notes. All right, let's get this party

(03:15):
start. Welcome to the most stupendous, this beer's delicious Twitter space that there
is, Podcasting Power Hour. I'mJeff Townsend. We've got a lot of
the usual characters in here, butspeaking of father time, Greg will be
in the co host seat this evening. I'm always in the co host seat.

(03:36):
What are you talking about? Thisthing has my butt imprint on it.
Yeah, hello everybody, Greg herefrom Indie Drop In Network. Uh
so my job is really just alaugh at Jeff's jokes, so that it's
just not silent in the room foran hour. M e dog, how
could you say something like that?Or you're a funny man. Jim Mallard

(03:59):
is with this from the Mallard Report. He's been doing them? Has it
been the Report for eleven years?Like such a creative name, but I
came up with but you know,if I could go back eleven years anyway,
speaking of a man who's back amillion years, he's the Hall of
Famer, the sensual Dave Jackson.I'm sensual now, well that's exciting,

(04:23):
glad to be here. I'm justtrying to get you more and more lively
here. I don't want to knowhow you know he's sensual, Jeff.
Maybe maybebe in the after hours ofpodcasting Power Hour you can tell us that
story sounds spicy. And of coursethe guest this evening, the reason that
you are here because you're not herefor me, certainly, although you may
like me pestering Tanner who has nocalled no show this evening, but we

(04:47):
have Dave Jones here from Podcasting Indexand the two point zero. Guy.
Let me be slightly pedantic. It'sthe podcast Index, not the podcasting Index.
Yeah, okay, well you gotme there. Yeah, guys,
let's just start off. Cut it, cut it, cut it, cut

(05:08):
it, rewind it Podcasting Index guy, Dan, it's great to be here.
Thanks. This is my first everTwitter Space. It is. Yes,
No, I've never spoken on I'velistened to a few, but I've
never spoken on any. This isinteresting. I'm I mean, I hadn't.
I have no proper setup for this. Yeah, sounds much more profu

(05:30):
on my AirPods. I can walkyou through the proper setup if you get
in the Twitter Space game big time. Okay, But no, appreciate you
taking the time to do this.I know there's a lot of questions about
the work that you guys are doing, so I just want to give you
a minute. It's not this isby no means an interview. And in
the meantime, if you want totalk podcasting, to start requesting to speak
and we'll get you up here.But as we wait for people to come

(05:54):
up, just tell us a littlebit about yourself and what you're doing.
Oh yeah, sure, Yeah,so we're the Podcast Index. If anybody
doesn't knows the sort of the firstproduct that we launched. When I say
we, I mean me and AdamCurry. Adam and I go back a
long time, probably about twelve yearsago is when we first met, and

(06:16):
we were we met under the A'spart of a project with Dave Weiner called
a EC two for poets, andthat was a part of his OPML microblogging
and RSS reader product, and sowe got to know each other and ended
up sort of spinning out of thatproject into a different thing that we launched

(06:42):
together called the Freedom Controller, andthat became the basis of his the show
notes system that he uses to dothe No Agenda show is basically a way
to collect and save articles from RSSfeeds as you read them all throughout the
week, and then you get toshow day and you export those You just

(07:03):
export those articles as a big batchinto an outline, and then you after
the show's over, you published allthat as a as a set of show
notes. So it's just sort oflike a soup to nuts type research and
publishing tool for show notes. Andthen because of all that work, we've

(07:25):
learned a lot about aggregation and youknow RSS, the vagaries and the mysteries
of how to part you know partterrible RSS feeds, and that gave us
the confidence to launch the index,the Podcast Index, which is a free
API for app developers to use towrite podcast apps so they don't have to

(07:46):
spin up twenty five servers and incurall that cost and knowledge to do that.
They can just use the Podcast Indexand we run on donations to make
it to make it free. Andthen we have a podcast each week.
That's uh, we don't ever havemeetings. We we rarely talk during the

(08:07):
week, and so that's our that'sour board meeting of the podcast Podcast Index
every Friday at noon Central time andlast a couple of hours. We have
a good time and talk about allthe stuff that's going on in the podcasting
two point oh community. And sothat's that's the Podcast Index. And then
the podcasting two point er side ofthings is just our effort to push podcasting

(08:31):
forward, uh feature wise, tobuild crazy new stuff. It will eventually
end up in every player and hostingcompany as new features that are not bound
behind some huge company like Spotify orApple, but that the it's community led
and community created, and it's beenvery successful over the last couple of years.

(08:56):
We've got a lot of new featuresand podcasting and a lot of a
lot of cool stuff going. I'llgo ahead and ask you the first question.
I've been asked this, well,well several times over the last year.
What the hell is two point zero? People ask me, like,
what does that mean? What isit? Yeah? Two podcasting two point

(09:16):
oh ends up being sort of incorrectlysynonymous with value for value and and sort
of bitcoin lightning payments, and that'sbut that's just one part of it.
That's just one feature out of Ithink it's eighteen different tags and two three
different protocols that we have now,so that that's just one part of it.

(09:39):
Podcasting two point oh. You know, I'm in this and then in
this never ending quest to figure outhow to explain it better. So I
think I would say I'm going totry it a different way now. I
think podcasting two point oho is issort of like a put up or shut
up for the open podcasting ecosystem.So it's you've got what we expect podcasting

(10:01):
to be, which is open,free, uncontrolled, decentralized. That's what
it was in the beginning, andthat's what we expect is what we think
of it as. But then youhave what it became over the last you
know, almost two decades, whichis still open and free, but controlled

(10:24):
by secret slack groups of people ofhosting companies and app developers and centralized in
Apple's directory and namespace. So twoP zero is it's an open source project
to try to see if what weexpect podcasting to be is what it can

(10:46):
actually be. It's it's this grandexperiment to see if it can actually be
decentralized and uncontrolled, so that theway it works out in practice is you
have just all these developers that hangout at podcast index, dot social and

(11:07):
hang out on all of our gethubrepos and are submitting code and coming up
with ideas. Developers from hosting companiesand podcasting apps and third party services and
even in podcasters themselves have all thesepeople that have joined in the party.
And that's what we expect podcasting tobe led by. We want them to

(11:31):
be. We want podcasting to beled by those people, not people at
a billion dollar corporations. And socan that happen? I mean, is
that is it possible? I guessthe last couple of years, says yes,
it seems like it is possible.Hey, before before I passed it
off to you, Greg, Ido want to mention if you want to
speak, don't be shy, goahead and request. But there's also there's

(11:54):
now a future of down there onthe bottom right of the comments feature.
Do you have any questions or commentsand you don't actually want to you can
click down there and reply, okay, Greg, I'll pass it off to
you now. Yeah, yeah,no problem. I was just kind of
curious how you know the podcasting twodot oh kind of name space features or

(12:16):
additions to the RSS, how havethey been viewed by the apples and Spotify's,
because I mean, right now theycontrol a giant chunk of the listener
space. So I'm just trying tofigure out how, you know, how
that you know works right, becauseit seems like if you if ten percent

(12:39):
of the listeners are on apps thatsupport two dot oh, you know that
isn't I mean, that doesn't seemlike it would move the needle. Yeah,
that's a fair question. But Ithink one one way to look at
it is if you go back.Let's see if you go back, let's
just say twelve fifteen years you hadyou had Firefox, that was, you

(13:05):
know, just this small one percentof the browser market. And as web
standards developed over time over the years, it's slowly, there was just this
slow ground swell of support as peoplesaw the benefit of the standards as they
were and you had more and moreadoption of it. And I said this,

(13:28):
I said this recently that I thinkI think it was I forgot who
I was talking to, But Iabsolutely think Apple and Spotify will both adopt
podcasting two point zero features for differentreasons. I think Apple will ultimately adopt
these features because they're good ideas andthey make their products better. And I

(13:52):
think Apple, at its core,we give them hard time sometimes, but
they they ultimately do want the bestproduct for their customers. Spotify, I
think for a different reason. Ithink that they will see that they need
these features and it is easier torely on a collective group, just like

(14:13):
they've relied on. Let's be honest, Spotify has has been the collective beneficiary
of a bunch of free content.Podcasting is an immediate win for them because
it's loads of free content that theycan just tap into and not have to
pay for and I think that alsoapplies to podcasting two point zero. You

(14:37):
have people doing the hard work ofdevelopment and feature and spec writing and testing,
and they don't have to pay forthat. They get the benefits,
but they don't have to incur thecosts. So I think both of them
will ultimately adopt it. But luckwith anything, it's just text time.

(14:58):
But I'm confident. Jim over toyou, So I'm gonna ask this question
and talk to me like I'm idiot, and I'm an idiot because well,
I'm aware of podcasts two point outs, So what is the Like You've mentioned
some things, but I'm still justa little fuzzy on trying what you're trying,
Like what's currently out there? Whatare you doing today? That's like,
are you are, Jim, areyou looking for like the killer features
that you're I'm just, like Isaid, I'm just out to lunch of

(15:22):
this whole thing. This is allnew to me, so yeah, yeah,
So, well, the features ofpodcasting two point zero are things that
are written up to be included byhosting companies and apps, so ultimately the
some of them are listener facing andsome of them are going to be sort

(15:43):
of back end things that the listenernever sees. So, for instance,
one of the features that we've developedis the ability to ship a transcript with
your episode. So if you havehost generated transcripts, like if let's just
say your own a host like busSprout that offers that service, you could

(16:04):
generate your transcript included in your episode, and then bus pro will shift that
in the RSS feed. Then podcastingthen podcasting apps that support the transcript tag
which we developed, can go andread that transcript and display time stamped captions

(16:26):
in the app. So that's onefeature that's listener facing. Another one would
be something like cloud based chapters,and so those are chapters that are not
embedded in the audio file, butare they live as a separate file in
the cloud, so that you canmodify the chapters without having to touch the
audio. And for that's also wouldbe a listener listener facing feature, and

(16:52):
we our show is a perfect exampleof the usefulness of something like that.
So for instance, every Friday onour show we do we Adam just puts
a stub, it creates a blankchapter's file, puts it into the episode,
and then our listeners use a toolcalled hyper Catcher. Studio to go

(17:18):
and crowd edit the chapters, sothey listen to the show and put chapter
markers in for us, and thenevery time somebody puts a chapter marker in,
it pops up in the podcasting apps. So that's a pretty powerful feature.
It takes the burden of editing awhole bunch of chapters out of the

(17:41):
hands of the podcaster if they don'twant to do it themselves. So it's
a couple of user facing features.Then you look at something that's more of
a back end, undercover feature.It'll be something like podpeing, which is
a blockchain protocol to have rabid notificationfrom hosting companies, two podcast directories and

(18:03):
apps that a feed has published anew episode. And that's something that you
know that a listener's never going tosee, but it has huge ramifications across
the industry for speed and efficiency offeed polling to make open podcasting easier and
cheaper. Jim, did that makeany sense to you? Yeah, cleaned
it up quite quite well, because, like I said, I'm totally out

(18:23):
launch on this whole thing, andthis is the first hand, first hand
I've said about so I'm excited now, but I'm a little bit on the
surface. So now Dick for findit awesome. Well, Dave Jackson's up
next, maybe he'll ask a goodquestion. We'll see. Well, the
way you can kind of look atthis is five years ago. Now I'm
in Ohio. But five years ago, if I got a chicken sandwich anywhere

(18:45):
I did not get a pickle onmy chicken sandwich. Chick fil A comes
to town. Now every place Igo there's pickles on my chicken sandwich because
people are like, oh, Iknow what that's like, I want that
on my chicken sandwich. And sopodcasting two point zero is like, well,
they've made a spice rack. Theymade a spice rack, and the

(19:06):
more people use those spices in theirpodcast, their audience is going to go,
hey, like, I noticed youhave cloud chapters. This other podcast
they used to do used to useHindenberg to make the chapters in the MP
three file, but now we're doingdynamic content and the chapters don't work anymore.
Well, how do you fix thatcloud based chapters? And they go,

(19:26):
oh, that's pretty cool. Soit's all these little things and it's
really going we have to get everybodytalking about this. Like when the one
dude from Spotify was like home podcastingtwo point on. And then Amazon's like,
oh, we're gonna do transcripts andI'm like, oh cool, We've
already got it made, and they'relike, we're going to do our own.
We got to get people using thestuff that's already here. They don't

(19:47):
know there's a spice rack, andthen oh you want a little paprika,
it's right here, so that theycan use the one, so that when
we go to adopt this everywhere,that everybody be using the same spices,
and then everybo to be consistent inthat whole nine yards. So but that's
one example of a face for theend user. At first, I did
not get chapters. I'm like,why are we making this so hard?

(20:11):
I can do them in Hindenburg.And then Dynamic Content comes along and horks
the whole thing. So that's howI kind of view the features. Dang,
I sense a romance, so theyshould be paying you to promote this.
Dave Jackson, well, I'm actuallygetting ready to break more stuff.
I came in I started a podcastcalled Leading the Bleeding. Hence I didn't

(20:32):
know what I was doing, andI kind of jumped in and broke everything.
It was like one of the world'sworst onboarding experiences ever. But I
got it up in going and Ihave sense now bought the materials to build
my own little node, which Idon't want to go too deep into that,
but I'm going to be breaking morestuff and reporting more on this because

(20:53):
I really do think in ten yearswe're going to be like, oh,
I'm so glad we went through thisto build this, because I think that's
gonna be you know, it's intrue Adam Curry fashion. He's about five
years ahead a time, but it'sgonna be great. Jackson's breaking things at
all now. I want so jeez, see what you did, Dave,

(21:14):
mister Campbell, you are up,sir, the most hated man. I
knew it. Thanks guys. Uhsorry. As later, I was on
a rowing machine trying to get apr and I didn't didn't do it,
but I tried. I got somesome practical question. This is Dave,
right, Yeah, Hey, Dave, we're gonna have We're gonna have beer
skis at PM. Right. Uh, That's that's what I've been told,

(21:37):
I've been I've been promised to be. You did your people talk to his
people? How do you not knowthis, I don't know. We never
know who's on the show's d MS. Okay, So there's there's some similarities
here that I see between Podcast twopoint zero as far as adoption understanding,
that is similar to just in generalWeb three and and NFTs, and that

(21:59):
is that, you know, itjust seems complicated. I think a lot
of people in this room might bescratching their head just a little bit.
And with that in mind, I'verecently started experimenting with NFTs and Web three
and building a couple of things,buying stuff, trying to figure it out,
just you know, losing a lotof money, frankly, And something
that struck me the other day was, you know, this is Web three

(22:23):
has got some serious problems. ButI think once it's all sorted and figured
out, it ends up being somethingthat is pretty indispensable. And I think
that the struggle that everybody's having aWeb three right now, especially the environmental
stuff, is do I support itwhile it sucks so it can get to

(22:44):
what it will become if I supportit while it sucks. Not not to
say that podcast two point oho sucks, but to say that to use the
podcast two point oh features really dependson one huge thing, and that seems
to be finding a podcast host thatwill will adopt all of these great name
spaces that you've created. But also, I'm wondering if you see there being

(23:07):
like a runway of opportunity to getthis thing stood up and functional and adopted
broadly before all these closed systems kindof shore up the up and coming creator
so that the up and coming creatoris like, why would I fuck with
any of that stuff I'm creating onanchor and Spotify or exclusively an Apple?
Is that a tension in your roadmapat all? Do you guys think of

(23:29):
that? I don't personally think ofit. The reason I don't think of
it is I think I would thinkabout it more if they had shown if
the closed systems had shown this amazingtrack record of bringing features swiftly to market.
But they don't. That's they seemsomehow incapable of bringing features, compelling

(23:56):
features in a timely manner. Imean, we've so the podcast in two
point zero open source project has beenaround for two years this month, and
in that time we've had we've we'vebrought two new protocols and seventeen name space
features in that same time span fromSpotify, we've gotten polls and Q and

(24:19):
A and maybe some advertising cards likeand and then we got something that you
have to that you have to enterin, like some kind of colon U
R L into Safari to play withor something like. They're just not They're
just not doing anything. And soif I would be, I would be

(24:41):
word. I think the tension wouldbe there and it would feel like,
oh no, we need to rushand do this before the closed systems take
over if they had shown that trackrecord. But they just don't. And
I honestly it's it's baffling as towhy they haven't done need thing faster.

(25:02):
And the only thing I can thinkof is just that perhaps the passion is
not there. I mean, wedo the podcast in two point zero.
Project is not you know, it'snot me and Adam. It's a collection
of dozens and dozens and dozens ofpeople and that are active contributors that only
they really only care about this coolfeature that they want to build and see

(25:27):
it function in the marketplace. Andthey're not They're never going to get any
money for this. And I thinkthe passion, especially amongst developers, what
what developers want is they want tomake cool stuff and they want to see
people be happy when they use it. That's what they want to see.

(25:49):
And when you have a lean sortof group of developers that can push out
changes very fast and immediately have feedbackfrom app from from apps like Podverse,
these smaller apps like Podverse and Costematic, it's like they'll push and they'll they'll
push an idea out and before youknow it, Podverse has done it within

(26:11):
a week and it's there and peopleare, you know, happy, and
they're getting great feedback. That sortof loop, that feedback loop you don't
get when you're in a huge companyand you have cycles and sprints and lack
of lack of feedback directly with thecustomer. I just think there's a difference

(26:34):
in mindset and I'm just I'm justI'm not worried about it. And especially
with some of the conversations we've hadlately with some of the bigger players in
in the podcast market, they're excitedabout this stuff and I and I think,
I think there's really not a riskthere. I think the runway is

(26:55):
really long, fair and the nextmaybe might call it here, might have
some of the questions. I haveone more. A conversation I had with
whoever adverse app Twitter and or hisMitch, he pointed something out interesting to
me that I didn't know, andthat was that the I'm not sure if
you call it the tipping name spaceor the support name space. What is

(27:17):
it called. Are you telling aboutthe lightning stuff? Yeah, that's the
value block, the value block namespace. He explained to me that technically
anything could be put into that namespace, such that if I hit tip
inside of an app, I wouldn'thave to wrangle with the somewhat obtuse world

(27:37):
of web three and cryptocurrencies. Icould in fact put something like buy me
a coffee in there, such thatwhen somebody pressed tip instead of tipping me
in you know, whatever quasi currencypeople on the Internet are dealing with,
they could tip real dollars through anexisting platform like Stripe. And I think

(27:59):
some of I can't remember if itwas you, Dave that said this,
but it was somebody in that sphereof conversation that said, well, yes,
that's true, but we would haveto like we'd have to ask permission
from Stripe, We'd have to askpermission from buying me a coffee, we'd
have to try to convince them,and we're not gonna waste our time doing
that because we want to make progressmoving forward with the expansion of this spec

(28:21):
and creating a new namespaces and allthese great things that you're doing. And
that struck me, and I don'tmean this in a callous way, but
it struck me as a little singleminded that it seems like you would want
somebody on your team to be tryingto have those conversations because if all of
a sudden, somebody could tip usingStripe in a one button solution, or
with buy me a Coffee, orwith Kofi, or with any of these

(28:44):
other solutions that people seem to like, that that would help in the quicker
adoption of the two point zero spec. So the thing around that is,
we built we built Lightning and focusedon that because, Uh, it fit,
It did all the things we wantedit to do. It was cheap,
it was it's a transaction. Youcan send micro transactions of just you

(29:10):
know, a penny at a timewithout fees. Uh. And it's not
it's anonymous, it's encrypted, andso we and plus we were already already
familiar with bitcoin, so it hadall the qualities that Adam and I needed
to feel confident pushing forward with that. So the initial value block specification,
it's on the name space. There'sa full UH document that goes into detail

(29:36):
about the format and the structure ofthe XML and what it should look like.
The reason we started with Lightning wasbecause it had all those qualities,
but we intentionally made the spec allalong the way so that it could anything
could be put in there and think. And to date, many people have
come up and said something similar towhat you're saying, said, well,
why didn't you do this? Well, why didn't you do that? Well,

(29:59):
how about theoreum, how about Hive? What about Cardono and just the
let you know, what about USdollars in some fashion, so the let
Many people have asked that, andwe have the same response every time we
say, we did this. Wedid the reference back. It's already been
it's already in use broad you knowbroadly, there's seven or eight apps that

(30:21):
are using it. UH. There'stwo hosting companies now that have Lightning support
in the directly in the x mL feed, So it's already in use.
If you want to see something differentin that value block. Go modify
the value block. It's open source. You can do it right there in
the make the changes, write theappendix, and submit it, and then

(30:42):
everybody will be able to use it. And today nobody has. And so
I think the issue there is notthat it's up. You know that it's
it behooves us to go and doall these integrations to make everybody else's ship.
It's that everybody thinks it's a greatidea, but nobody actually wants to

(31:03):
do it, which tells me thatmaybe the desire for it is not all
that great. If you want buyme a coffee, maybe you just use
the existing stuff that already uses buyme a coffee. If you want something
new and something that's that's more,that's a little bit easier than buy me
a coffee and cheaper, maybe thatthing already exists in the form of the

(31:26):
lightning. I don't know how fairthat is, because I think the person
who's going to be directing what isthe best thing to put in that block
is going to be the listener whoultimately has to find it sentimple, easy,
comforting, and familiar, And Idon't think the listener knows. Podcasting
two point zero exists to say,oh, I'll jump in a GitHub and

(31:47):
make it better. But I dothink it's more. It's a little bit
easier than buy me a coffee andcheaper. Maybe that thing already exists in
the form of the lightning. Idon't know how fair that is, because
I think the person who's going tobe directing what is the best thing to
put in that block is going tobe the listener who ultimately has to find

(32:08):
it sentimple, easy, comforting,and familiar. And I don't think the
listener knows Podcasting two point zero existsto say, oh, I'll jump in
a GitHub and make it better.But I do get your point, and
then I guess my last question.Then I'll shut up because other people have
their hand up. Dave and Jamingojoined just a minute ago. How much
of using the cryptocurrency within the appshas to do with trying to avoid the

(32:32):
fifteen to thirty percent that a hostoperating system might charge. Is that part
of it? I guess I canonly answer from myself. I never really
thought of that, because on thecrypto side of things, I'm using crypto
the crypto term loosely, I guessbroadly. On the crypto side of things.

(32:54):
The app stores have been pretty handsoff. They don't they have not
really come out. There's lots ofcrypto wallets, there's lots of crypto,
there's lots of cryptocurrency currency activity goingon in app store apps, and they
don't seem to be very interested init. And I think it's because legally,
by definition, most cryptos is butyou know, bitcoin, for sure,

(33:17):
it's classified as an asset, it'snot a currency, So there's not
to them. I don't see.I don't think they see currency transactions happening.
They see some other thing happening thatdoesn't affect them legally or monetarily,
and so they just have not gotinvolved. So a lot OF's, like

(33:37):
I said, there's a bunch ofapps in apps Store now that use the
lightning valuseback and this. They've neverreally had any feedback negatively from the app
store guys, So I don't it'snot been in my mindset. The biggest
impetus for me and Adam at leastwas to make sure that nobody gets in

(34:01):
the middle between the creator and theand the listener and the unless you want
them to be. So this it'sthe creator's decision whether or not they want
to introduce somebody else into the mixbetween their listener and themselves in order to

(34:22):
have a concrete pipeline from source toconsumption. The because if you if you
introduce a third party, a paymentprocessor, anybody else. I saw this
with GitHub. We just saw theTornado cash uh repo taken offline and the

(34:44):
developer of that product to his accountremoved from GitHub uh in every whenever you
see, whenever you introduce a thirdparty but a middleman, you always have
the possibility that you can be platformed, censored, whatever you want to say.
So in order to make that connection, that financial connection between the creator

(35:07):
and the consumer as robust and unblockableand undeplatformable as possible, you need to
have that payment network that you needto have that that direction, that direct
pipeline there. It really wasn't abouttrying to get around some sort of thirty
percent. I never even thought aboutthat. It's really about making it,

(35:29):
you know, unblockable. I guess, okay, cool, let's thank you
for answering that data. I'm justtrying to get to somebody else who's Melissa's
had her hand up for a bitdatay, Hey it's Dave Jackson, then
Jamingo, then Melissa Okay, yeah, might not be quick. It's just

(35:49):
they're already what you just talked aboutTanner already exists. Uh one. And
here's the problem though nobody knows thisexists unless you're listening to James Kritlin or
somebody who does coding. I know, there's a bit of code that just
says R E L E equals paymentand then you you put in an HF
to your whatever wants to be PayPal, buy me a coffee, whatever.
But that only works I think inovercast. Then there's one and I think

(36:13):
this is a two point zero spectpodcast funding where you just put in what
yeah, that one you can putin your PayPal whatever and that again in
some apps will put a little dollarsign, I know, and cast a
pot. I think it puts alittle dollar sign and then you have the
value for value things. So someof this exists, but the I mean,
there are a few. There's RSS, dot com, castos, there

(36:35):
are some of these that are it'sactually making it into the interface of the
media host so that somebody can comein and they don't have to know the
HTML to put it in they justgo, oh, here's my PayPal email
address, and behind the scenes itputs in that kind of stuff. So
that's that's always going to be thebiggest hurdle is adoption and people making it
easy, because it can't just bethe nerds hacking there are If this is

(36:59):
a good word, Yeah, itdoes seem like podcasters are the ones who
are most interested in this stuff.I think we need to get listening more
interested. Go ahead, so I'mdone. I'll pass it over to Jamngo.
Hey, listen. I love theidea of podcasting two point zero,
but I'm a podcaster who's allergic tocode. So every time I look over

(37:21):
at podcasting two point zero, Ilook over and I'm like, nope,
not yet. It's not ready.So as a podcaster who doesn't code,
where would someone go to learn theleast painless way to adopt two point zero
into their podcasting workflow and make someof this work? Is it ready for

(37:44):
podcasters? The common podcaster? Yet? That's I guess it's the host,
right, Dave. Yeah, someof it, some of it is not
ready, some of it is.Some of it is already there and you're
and you can use it easily.So the way this this was talked about,
uh, sort of in a differentcontext. In the business context,

(38:07):
you had for years when when cryptocurrencyand blockchains first were developed, you had
every business consultant saying, you needto get involved in blockchain, you know,
it's the future. And every aftera while everybody just started rolling their
eyes. And so there's a blockchainand uh, machine learning and artificial intelligence,

(38:30):
and you just heard these these thesephrases over and over and over,
but really that was never meant forbusinesses to mostly do directly. The way
that you get the benefit of thingslike blockchain, machine learning, artificial intelligence
is you use the applications and thesoftware that the developed that developers have integrated

(38:53):
into it. So if I'm anaccounting firm and I want, do I
need to go and hire a biggroup of developers to develop artificial intelligence and
machine learning apps for my business.No, I just wait for the line
of business apps in the accounting worldto integrate those things in for me,

(39:13):
and then I just get the benefitof them by using their software packages.
And I think it's the same way, and I know it's the same way
in podcasting. The podcast in twopoint zero project develops the specs and protocols
that create that enable these things tohappen, and then podcasters will use them
as they become available. When thepodcast hosts and apps integrate them, and

(39:39):
that's when you know that they're ready, is when they just show up.
So my question, okay, sorealize that I'm I don't know enough to
know enough. So would this bemore integrated in the podcast hosting like I
would say Lipsyn or Blueberry, orwould it be something where you'd go somewhere
else? Would it be more inthe p kissed apps that are using this,

(40:01):
and then that's how you would implementthis into the workflow. Well,
sorry, go ahead, Dave,No, no, go for it.
I was going to say jamingo theSo it's two parts. The way that
the user the listener benefits from youusing this is in the app. That's
on the app side, which iswhy it's important for the apps to adopt

(40:22):
it. But the part that youdo so that those things can be used
in the app is on the hostside. So Dave has already both Daves.
Actually, I have mentioned for example, rss dot com, which is
a hosting provider like libsn or captivator, any of the others that have some
of these features that you can alreadyset up so that they show up in

(40:44):
apps that are currently using these newname spaces. I get that, right,
Dave, Yeah, that's exactly right. So then I'm sorry. My
last question. I know I havelike three last questions. So my last
question is for Dave Dave jack whoworks at Lipson. Will Liftsen be integrating

(41:05):
any of this soon into Because I'ma big Lipson fan, that's where I
hoo's most of my stuff, That'swhere my clients host most of their stuff.
Will they be implementing that this intointo lips and soon Customer ret for
Dave, customer retention get on it. Yeah, I forget their U I
forget their official statement. It's somethinglike we're watching everything because I'm I'm going

(41:29):
to answer now is Dave Jackson fromSchool of Podcasting not Dave Jackson Lipson employee.
Basically, they're watching everything and theywill decide. And the problem with
some of the I don't want tosay problem. Uh. The situation with
bigger companies is they have a roadmap, especially if you're rolling out other I
don't know, if you're going aroundbuying other companies and such, and you're
trying to get them all to worktogether. That's not an easy task.

(41:51):
So when somebody says, hey,can you add this thing to the thing,
they've already allocated money and resources andsuch to that situation. So it's
not that they're not going to doit. I just can't say when.
But I do want to tell youJohn that by the end of this week.
There's a tool called alb Alby.If you go to get alb dot
com and what this does, thisis the easy way to for the podcaster.

(42:15):
So you go over, you getan ALBI thing and it gives you
a bunch of gobbledygook. You're like, here's your thing, and here's your
thing. Then you go over topodcast index dot org. You sign up
and you get this thing called apodcaster wallet. It says, hey,
I need your RSS feed and thenI need this thing and this thing,
and you're like, huh it lookslike the things that were in ALBI and
you're like, yep, that's it, and you copy and paste and copy

(42:35):
and paste and you are done.It's really that simple. You're really selling
to day. You go get well, I'm here. Yeah, it's it's
literally there's two pieces of information thatyou so you have to sign up in
two places, you copy and pastetwice. And I just logged into mind
and I can see that. OnSaturday, Scott from Talkingbeards dot com boosted

(42:58):
me five thousand sads. He said, hey, thanks for this topic.
So now the kind of sad thingis but it's good, we're not complaining.
Is when you convert five thousand SATsto you know, money, it's
like not as much as you maybehope, but it's why tell him?
Why'd you tell him? And no, But here's the thing again, fast

(43:19):
forward five years from now, whenyou've got a big chunk of your audience
doing this and it's the norm now, and plus who knows what bitcoin's going
to be at that point, it'sgoing to be really cool. So but
right now, and that's why thevideo I have right now shows a system
that used Telegram, So yeah,to install Telegram and i'lb doesn't do that

(43:39):
makes it easy. It's sign uptwice, copy paste twice. You're done.
Yeah, Well we're talking about ifyou're talking about the value stuff,
you know on the value stuff isthe Bitcoin lightning part of podcasting two point
zero, and I like to alwaysbe clear that podcasting two point oho is
way bigger than just the just bitcoinand lightning. But if you're you know,
if we're talking specifically about that,and you want to see not what

(44:06):
it could be, but what itis actually now our show every Friday,
we get lots and lots of donationsthrough the value through Value for value through
the Lightning network, we get Adamlooked at the he did an export from
our NOE today and we're getting aboutfour million SATs a month, So that's

(44:30):
about one thousand dollars a month indonations directly through the apps. That's there's
no US dollars involved at all.And we got one donation last month.
We got five million SATs in onego, so that was a little over
one thousand dollars just boom one.It came in right during the middle of
the show. So it's not Thisisn't like I guess what I'm trying to

(44:53):
say is it's not all aspirational likemaybe one day, ten years from now
we'll all be making some money.No, No, it's actually happening right
now, and it's just a matterof how much you commit to it because
value for value. Value for valueis more than just hooking up a wallet
and then watching money roll in.That's not how it works. That's not

(45:15):
how it will ever work. Valuefor value if that is the goal of
your show, if that's what youwant to do with your show, there's
a system that has to be putinto place where you enable that feature,
that that feature to be there.You enable the SATs to come in by

(45:36):
enabling the value block and the walletsand that king to think. But that's
only the first part of it.Then you have to integrate it into the
show because what people want is togive value back to you, and you
have to give them the channel inwhich to do that. They want to
be a participant in the show.So the value for value loop is what

(46:00):
you call it. And you getyou you make it available, you ask
them to give you back value,and then when they give that back to
you, you use that as contentin the show, and that begins.
It creates a feedback loop where otherlisteners hear notes it's being read on the
show, they hear donation amounts,and it's I think we're so used to

(46:24):
being afraid to ask people for money. We think that if a listener hears
that. Another if a listener hearsa donation of like one thousand dollars,
we're afraid, as the podcaster that, oh, they heard that somebody gave
me a thousand dollars, They're goingto think I don't need any more money,
and so nobody else is going todonate. It's actually psychologically what we

(46:45):
found. What we found is isthe complete opposite. When somebody hears you
get a thousand dollars donation, itmakes them feel guilty for not giving you
anything. They've been listening to youand essentially mooching your content for free,
and so they want to step upto the plate and they're like, well,

(47:06):
if this guy gave a thousand bucks, I can at least come off
the wallet for twenty and so ithas this sort of opposite social psychological effect.
But you have to But none ofit works unless you integrate it into
the show. That's the key partof everything that most people miss when they
try to implement value for value.They're like, I hook up the wallet,

(47:27):
but I'm not getting any money.Well, you're not getting any money
because you didn't ask for it,and you're not doing the value for value
loop. Thanks Joleen. Podcasting PowerHour is part of indie drop in network.
If you are a podcaster looking togrow your listeners, check out indie
drop in dot com. Indie dropin is always free and we have opportunities

(47:53):
right now for comedy, true crime, scary and paranormal podcasts. Just go
to indydropin dot com to learn more. Unlessa you want to go ahead,
sure, but I think I'm prettymuch way behind everyone because I just want

(48:15):
to start a podcast. I haveno clue what I'm doing. When you
guys are talking coding. I workin clinical trials, so like that's my
scientific knowledge. However, my latefriend Andy Gross he developed some I don't
know RIOC school some kind of codeand tried to help me with it.

(48:37):
And this was years ago, andI just and also I'll probably get kicked
off because I thought, until Iheard my mom and brother have a fight
over it on Easter, that NFTswere made up by south Park post COVID.
But my simple question is, like, where did you guys start?

(49:00):
Because you know, I I dounderstand. I mean, I guess I
can learn because I I can understandAI as far as like clinical trials,
I can understand, you know,but what is an easy way to just
start? I mean, where didyou guys? Starts dot com that's where
you so so hold on there.There are a few people up here that

(49:23):
could plug some things to sell you, some things to help you with that.
So I want to kind of avoiddoing that. I don't have I
don't have any That's the thing rightnow. I And that's the thing,
like, I'm a single mom.I don't have any money to you know,
buy anything. You know, Ithink people people will donate when the
nineteen year old son has a mulletlike that is, donate to me.

(49:50):
I just but honestly, though,where like where do I start? Oh?
Boy, you guys, I reallydon't want to tell her to like
download the anchor app and just MutSaround until she figures out and learns better.
But now let's let's back up beforethat. Why are you starting a
podcast? Oh no, no,I can do it quickly. I can

(50:12):
do it quickly. I'm starting apodcast because I'm right now, I'm watching
so many people go into a deepdepression because of what's going on in the
world. It's confusing to kids,it's confusing to freaking everyone. You know
I have my son when I'm readingThe Night before Christmas a couple of years
ago, stopping me and asking mewhy Santa doesn't bring AK forty sevens to

(50:35):
North Korea to let them shoot theirway out of concentration camps. Like there's
so much going on, and Ijust, you know, I have a
funny life like my I have.I'm struggling, you know, like we
all are. But I just Idon't know. I guess my way of
dealing with things is laughing at them. And everyone has been telling me in
my life, except for my familybecause my mom doesn't think it's funny anything

(51:00):
I say. But you know,to start a podcast, because it's just
I just think we're all kind ofin this together, and people are being
you know, a holes to everyoneand there's no reason for it. Okay,
So Melissa, here's you. Tellno one I did this. Okay.
I have a reputation as an assholeand I have to keep it.
But I'm too, I am too. Don't worry. I oh, perfect,

(51:22):
this will work out wonderfully. Ihave an accelerator that starts on September
fourth. It's five hundred and fortybucks if you DM me I'll just put
you in it because I've got tenspots left out of twenty and I don't
think i'll fill the remaining ten beforeit starts. Oh, so mine listen.
Literally, don't tell anybody I didthat. And secondly, you got
to show up for it. It'syou know, well you got to do

(51:44):
the work, are you kidding?I will Okay, don't really really appreciate
it. Ten are still an asshole, thanks, Jim. I appreciation believe
me. Everyone. Everyone thinks I'mman a whole because I always speak the
truth, like I always even inmy family, like you know, I'm
always the one who just in general, like I think so many people are
are so even you know, yousee these young like startup people giving advice

(52:08):
to everyone, and it's so dumb. It's like simple advice, you know
what I mean. It's nothing deepor I don't know, well, you'll
fit right in. I don't sayanything deep, So just DM me Melissa,
okay a, thank you so much. Yeah, no problem, I
really really appreciate it. Well,that's a good reminder that if you ever
miss one of these podcasting power Hours, you can download it in podcast form

(52:34):
after the fact, and you canhear Tanner give away his classes for all
of eternity. Hi Jack the space. Uh so yeah, Podcastingpower Hour dot
Com. Thanks Tanner, Tanner,thank you, Tanny. That is very
nice to you. And that's whywe do these spaces, you know,
don't be afraid to come up andask. I mean, that's that's why

(52:57):
we do this. So it wasreally good meeting you as well. Thank
you so much, honestly, DaveJackson's your hand? Your hand's not up
anymore? Yeah, well no,wait a minute, we got we got
good pods in here. I wonderif that's Queen good pods yourself. I
wonder if she's thinking about putting insome podcast two point zero. Probably can,

(53:21):
but they haven't. I'll send himan invite, all right. So
Dave Jones, Uh, I meanthe question wasn't directly to you, but
do you have anything to comment onMelissa? Oh? Probably not. I
mean I think she's got a lotbigger fish to fry than podcasting two point
zero at the moment. But yeah, we all start somewhere there. Yeah,

(53:45):
I guess I would say if youstart to stick with it for a
while, don't bail out too.Don't bel out too fast. If you
get if you start to get discouragedor you know, or run against run
up against a rough spot, becausethere's you know, pod fade is is
a real thing and it if youpush through, you'll get better at it

(54:07):
and get more confident. I thinkthat. I think I would say that
because there there's not every week thatyou show up. You not every time
you feel great, and sometimes youyou you hit publish and you're just like,
eh, that just wasn't all thatgood. But it's funny those weeks
sometimes those are the weeks you getthe best feedback. And I still not

(54:28):
figured that out. It's like sometimesaway from a podcast thinking oh that was
that was fantastic. I mean,man, we really knocked it out of
the park, and it's just crickets, you know, nobody says anything.
And the next week we don't getvery many donations. And then the next
week I'm like, eh, thatwas average, that was just okay,
And then we get this great feedback, we get tons of donations. I
just you know, who knows,who knows what the list what the psychology

(54:51):
of the listener is. I haveI actually have one more question. Do
I have to take donations? Incrypto form. No, yeah, you
had to do that. Yes,okay, no, no, I'm kidding.
I'm kidding, Dave. Can Itell you something real quick. My
girlfriend's sitting here on the bed withme. She's eating her dinner and you're
talking, and she goes, isthat Matthew McConaughey. All right, Yeah,

(55:21):
So Melissa, let me go back, Melissa, let me go back
to your last question. You askedabout taking donations. So is the goal
of your lession project. It's alittle bit of both, I guess,
but I need I do need tomake money. Sounds that needs some attention.
Oh my god, it was youdon't even know, you know,

(55:45):
he looks like he looks like EllenDeGeneres had a baby with Jojrt. It's
awful. Oh my goodness. Thento to kind of bring it back to
a little bit about what we're talkingtonight. It doesn't matter how you get
the money, you have to delivervalue. So that's where I was going
back to all my questions of like, Okay, we know why you want

(56:07):
to start a podcast. Who isthis for? Because it can't be for
everybody, and they have to figureout who that person is. In a
crystal clear picture and then give themwhat they want. And if you want
them to give you money, youhave to solve a problem for them.
So, like with the No AgendaShow, I get stuff about the media
that makes me want to punch myTV because I'm like, I'm hearing out

(56:30):
about how Congress is just screwing theAmerican citizen. And I turn on the
TV and they're like, Kim Kardashianwear a red dress on the red carpet
last night. I'm like, whyare we talking about this? So they're
giving me something I can't find withpodcasting two point zero. They are giving
me information that I can't find anyplaceelse because they are the origin of the

(56:51):
information. So you have to givepeople something they want enough to where they
will then want to give it back. It's the law of risk not to
interrupt, but I mean, Ithink not to be like, I don't
know how personal to go, butI mean I could even you know,
I have a little girl, Ihave four kids, and my three eldest

(57:15):
start my teenagers are from my exhusband. My baby her father. You
know, I'm getting his rights terminatedunfortunately, and he owes thirty thousand dollars
and his mom works in the courtand I mean I could talk about I
could talk to day about the injusticein the court system. I mean,
you know what I mean. Theother thing about making money with a podcast,

(57:37):
and everybody loves to skip the steps, and this is where it happened.
Yeah, well here's the thing,and this is where I put on
my Dave Jackson dream crusher hat,and it's just the truth. Step one
is growing audience. You cannot monetizein any form, whether it's crypto or
regular or PayPal or buy me acoffee. If you don't have an audience,

(57:58):
there's nothing to monetize, and soyou have to do something to grow
that audience. And that can andnobody wants to hear this when I researched
it, it takes years to growan audience is going to give you any
kind of value back to where it'sgoing to make a difference. And people
are like, well, I wantedto quit my job in six weeks,
and I'm like, it just doesn'twork that way. I wish it did,

(58:19):
but it's gonna take a little while. So I say that again not
to crush your geam your dreams,but just so you come in realistic.
That's why I always say you haveto be super passionate about your project because
when you first start off, andlike right now, I'm starting a podcast
about the city I live in andI'm getting twenty eight downloads, okay,
But i want to see this throughand it's an experiment and I'm passionate about

(58:40):
trying some things with it. SoI'm pushing through even though I'm getting less
than you know, thirty download itsan episode, but I'm playing and I'm
trying something. So you need thatpassion to push through when you first start,
because it takes a while to buildupthat audience. A good analog here,
Melissa, is that if you so, I would say, if you
need my a podcast is not PlanA. It shouldn't be a plan A.

(59:04):
Well, no, it's actually goingto be like my Plan B.
It's like my fun thing. Wellit is similar to just to give you
an idea of how difficult it isto actually make let's just say a living
wage, which I don't know.Different people will define that differently. I
think of it as like fifteen bucksan hour, forty hours a week.
I think that's a minimally livable wagein order to doing that in podcasting is

(59:29):
a lot like doing that if youare someone who paints and wants to make
money being a painter. I mean, it's very much an artistic vein of
I mean, unless you have abusiness and you're using it for content marketing.
But most podcasters are creating something asif they were a painter and their
canvas is you know, the dowand their medium is sound. So it

(59:52):
is as difficult, perhaps more difficultthan becoming a painter in making money.
So Dave's just trying to temper youa little here. It's it's not something
that you're going to turn any kindof significant profit in, you know,
in a matter of months. Notto say that there are people who get
stupid lucky that happens, but toenter into the whole endeavor assuming that it

(01:00:15):
will happen to you is not agood plan. Not that that's what you're
doing, but just to make thatclear and like one more, yeah,
go ahead, Dave, No,go ahead. Well, one point I
wanted to bring up on this,to kind of bring back what Dave was
talking about is the other day Iuse cast a pod It looks just like
overcast, except it's enabled to streamsutocius to people and I look down and

(01:00:37):
I noticed I forget what it says. It said insufficient funds, and I
was like, oh, holy crap. I've been listening to podcasts for like
a day and a half and notgiving any value back. And I really
felt like, Oh, you area piece of crap. You're listening stuff
for free. Once you get usedto kind of paying for it, you
have this fun. It's a totallydifferent listening experience. And working for Libson,

(01:01:00):
we own a company called Glow andI think it's like the Jim and
Julie Show or something like that.And I've seen it twice with that show
where they're like, hey, wesigned up for the X amount of money
per months. How do we givethem more money? Because they only have
the one plan. And Adam Currysaid my favorite thing, he said,
never put a limit on how muchyour audience can give you. So it's

(01:01:22):
one of those things. Once youget them giving you some sort of value
back, it's great because they getused to it, but it takes a
little again, it takes value,determination and some patience to get them giving
it to you in the first place. But it's you know, and I've
heard Dave talk about the guy thatsent it like a boatload of money in

(01:01:43):
cash. Oh yeah, you know, one of our listeners send it a
donation in cash. It's like fourthousand dollars to Adam's po box. And
it was just like here, Ibelieve in what you're doing, and I
want, you know, want thisto I want this to happen. And
we you know, there's I don'tI'm not going to say the name of

(01:02:06):
the podcast, but uh, youknow, I pay for it. I
try to pay for everything that Ican, and so I mean, Tanner
knows this. I subscribe to asubstack and you know, donated to quite
a few people in podcast. IfI get some value from from something that
you do or write or your podcast, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you something

(01:02:27):
back from it. And the thethis podcast that I was talking about a
while ago, I went to subscribeon their Patreon and this is a podcast
I love dearly. It's thoroughly researched, just so well done, and I

(01:02:47):
was so surprised at the low amounts. The subscription levels were like five dollars,
seven dollars, ten dollars, fifteen, dollars, and its like because
in these they were labeled as like, you know, gold supporter, diamond
supporter, and it's like the diamondlevel was like twenty dollars, and I
was like, holy cow, thisis so low. It. I kept

(01:03:13):
thinking these numbers should be way higherthan this, and so I just said,
screw it. I'm going to justset up a thing on my lightning
and I'm just going to donate directlyto this podcaster way more than this,
because I literally didn't have the optionthrough the subscription page to give them more
money. And I'm like, andI value, I said, and thought

(01:03:36):
about, Okay, what's the valueI get from this podcast. It's at
least twenty five bucks a month worthof value that I get. And so
I'm like, okay, that's whatI'm gonna do, twenty five bucks a
month. And that put me intolike, you know, the super super
triple diamond level supporter. So yeah, that's a very important thing. Never
never artificially limit what your audience cangive you, all right. Special shout

(01:04:00):
out to Adam Curry, thank youfor joining us. The Man, the
Myth, the Legend. We dohave a few speakers that laser eyes yeah,
a laser. Yeah, yeah,we have a few more people here.
We're running over. I want tomake sure who have accepted we get
to them. I don't really knowthe orders, so ed will go to
you. Then good pods, thenJesse speak EDWARDO all right. Anyway,

(01:04:28):
So I wanted to talk to Melissapodcaster podcast or independent podcaster to independent podcaster,
one person crew to one person crewwho I've been doing this for about
three years now. The first yearI did it, I had no idea
what the hell I was doing,and I actually gave up after about five
episodes, which is typical. AndI came back to it right before the

(01:04:50):
pandemic and I did it for aboutthe year. I stopped for a while
again. But the second time thatI stopped, I had people like Jeff
in my corner who were constantly onme to keep going, that I had
some value to what I was doing. And in the first year that I

(01:05:11):
was podcasting, I got less thanone thousand listens in the first twelve months.
By the time I got to thesecond year, I was at about
three thousand. I just I justhit my third anniversary last month. I'm
about to hit ten thousand downloads.I haven't done it with any financial support
from supporters, or I've never askedfor money before. I just only set

(01:05:33):
up a buy me a coffee lastmonth at Tanner's high suggestion. Don't be
afraid to take time off and rethinkif things aren't working for you. But
what has worked for me more thananything else is being a part of this
community, this Twitter podcast independent community. Having people like Jeff and Tanner and

(01:05:57):
Greg and Jim telling me the thingsthat I need to hear when I need
to hear them to keep me motivated, and sometimes even piss me off,
because sometimes I need a good pissingoff to break me through to the next
level. So no matter what,just don't be afraid that you don't know
what you're doing because you will learnfrom all of these people because they are

(01:06:21):
such a wealth of information. Sodon't be afraid. Keep going. And
if you ever have any questions,these guys are great and they will absolutely
be there to help you if youask. I love you, guys.
I love these guys so much becausethey have helped me so much. Just
just keep going, don't be afraidto ask for help. Thank you so

(01:06:43):
much, you guys have been awesome, beautiful ed. Yeah, I mean
it's podcasting is very difficult. ButI know there were people that I'm sure
great Tanner would agree, people thathelp me along the way. So I
ply, all right, good podsis up. I don't know if they
really requested I sent them a request. Is it you can? Hey,

(01:07:06):
it's it is me Ken. Howare you guys? Good acquiring minds want
to know when are you going toput the spec, the two dot oho
spec in the app? When Ilove that they're like just getting ready to
launch their desktop version of their app, and we're like more fix it now.
So that is that's the answer Iwas going to give you, Tanner.
I appreciate that. So, ohmy god, our heads have been

(01:07:29):
down building out the desktop version ofthis app, so for the last many
months. It's a big project.So we have a very I guess uh
limited featured version of the desktop comingout in a couple of days, and
then we'll be building in more andmore of the features that you see on

(01:07:49):
the app over the next i'd saytwo and a half months, and then
we will pick our heads up andabsolutely are interested in and want to add,
you know, a bunch of thepodcasting two point zero technology into into
the into the app, end thewebsite, so that will be that'll be
coming awesome. Yeah, we've definitelybeen keeping our eye on it. It's

(01:08:13):
just that, man, there's justso much to do. Yeah, this's
there's a there's a chicken and eggthing always in podcasting. Everybody knows this.
It's because you have two sides.You have the hosting side and you
have the app side, and sothe question is always how do you break
the chicken and the egg, andthe you have to pick one or the
other. We decided to pick thehosting company side. So we just have

(01:08:40):
spent the last two years just makinggreat relationships with the hosting companies and just
really focusing on cultivating that side ofthings so that by the time that app
developers got got around to a cyclewhere they could spend some time to it,

(01:09:00):
they would already have loads of contentin which there was already pieces of
two point zero in there, sothat there was content to work with,
so that they weren't blindly building infeatures and then sort of hoping upon hope
that a host would someday support it. So there's almost there's about four hundred
thousand feeds right now that we wantto have at least one podcasting two point

(01:09:26):
oho feature in it. Probably aboutthere's going to be close to half a
million feeds that declare the name spaceby the end of the year, so
there's there's now. By focusing onthat though, on the hosting side,
we were able to get a corpusof material out there where the apps could
have some confidence to go forward andspend some developer hours on it. Yeah.

(01:09:46):
I think it's a good strategy.It shouldn't be too complicated for us.
Again, we just need to pickour heads up after we finished the
desktop version. That'd be great.Steps can baby steps? No? Okay,
so we have okay, yeah,we have time. We'll just go
ahead and finish up here with thelast person for we kind of closing thoughts

(01:10:10):
and close it out, Jesse,go ahead. I actually just wanted to
ask really quick. I've asked thisa few times for unfortunately didn't take notes.
I wanted to get started on apodcast that I've got like flushed every
ready to go. I want aone stop shop on an iPhone. Does
anybody have any recommendations? I reallyjust want to open up this app.
Push record and then be able tomaybe do some edits from there and then

(01:10:30):
publish it by pushing a second button. That's what I'm hoping for. Oh
my god, he's like the perfectguy for all my naysaying and warnings.
Uh yeah, there, I meanthere are apps that'll do that, Jesse.
Do you want to be able toedit it? The thing is is
I would rather just start over ifit gets to be that bad of a
flub or whatever. And even ifI'm good to go, or at least

(01:10:54):
I think I will be. AndI realize I say that like from this
end of it, and I'm sure. I'm sure they'll come like minute nine
out of a thirty five minute thingwhere I'm like, God, damn it,
I'm such an idiot. But I'mwilling to gamble just for the sheer
fact that I know that any extrasteps that I put between myself and pushing
that button is just more time loss, as opposed to if it's just there,

(01:11:16):
then I'll spend the day just makingsure that it's perfect and then just
push the goddamn button and it justbe done, you know what I mean?
Yeah, I mean, just gofor it, man, I mean,
get something like anchor, and I'mnot one. Tanner will tell you
there's definitions or things that you haveto follow here. But I would just
get something like anchor and just tryit out, and if you like it,
then you can take more of theapproach of you know, splitting it

(01:11:41):
out just from the one app andlegitimizing it. Go ahead, Tanner,
Yeah, Anchor is the I mean, you're looking for the one stop way
to do it. Anchors the wayto do it. But the thing is
that anchors as you grow and getbetter and get smarter time forever. If
you don't care about your hosting provider, but creating in that way, you'll
say, no, I can dobetter if I have a dog dog.
No, I can do better ifI you know, if I can record

(01:12:03):
in multi track. No, Ican do better if I can learn how
to use a compressor than a denoiser. And I mean, but if
you're just going to get into itto figure out if you like it.
A lot of people bash approaching itthe anchor way, But I mean,
if it's the filter that determines whetheror not you take it more seriously,
I don't have a problem sending peopleto Anchor. Yeah, don't go out

(01:12:24):
and spend a bunch of money thatyou know you enjoy it. I mean,
that's yeah, and that's so importanttoo. But honestly, I think
for me, ease of access ismore important than effort, you know what
I mean. Like, and Irealized that there's a bunch of effort that
goes into do it in traditional way, like all the efforts in the post,
or at least most of it.But like I said, I also
know what's going to bog me down, and it's all that all those extra

(01:12:45):
steps. If I can just ifAnchor just lets me try it and give
it a go, then yeah,it's exactly what Tanner was saying, Like
that'll that'll term whether or not Iget into it more seriously or not for
sure, Jesse. Here's an eveneasier way. Go on, pick up,
pick out your phone, find thevoice memo, pretend it's Anchor and
hit record and then just and thenjust talk and then you'll get done and

(01:13:08):
you'll like, Okay, that wasforty minutes. Do you think that what
you know, if it would,would I have put that out in the
public or not? If if so, well then you've just figured out I
have something to say you know,I once moved across a parking lot.
I moved from here to there.It was like seventy feet. It was
during a homeless time in his life, exactly. I'm here to say that

(01:13:32):
just moving anywhere in podcasting, eventhough it's just redirect the feed and important,
just just start in the right place. I'm not a fan of anchored
anyway. And if you're just tryingto figure out if it's if it's too
hard to push a button on Audacity, then just record into your phone and
just pretend it's anchor and that willlet you know that. That should solve

(01:13:54):
that problem. Can I talk forforty minutes into my phone? Well that
sounds what you're love that Davis hadtalk for forty minutes uninterrupted. This is
the issue because the thing is thatI actually I have tremendously severe ADHD and
then a wide spread of interest thatcover a number of topics, and I've
researched extensively for a number of yearsby reading dozens, if not hundreds,
if not thousands of books on thosesame subjects, that I've actually absorbed a

(01:14:15):
significant amount of information for it.But I can't wait to turnaround and actually
redistribute in a way that is accessibleand approachable by the masses, which,
as we all know, audiobooks supereasy to do, a plus podcast super
easy to do. So when Isay, believe me, can I get
going and talking? Holy fuck?Am I not concerned about it? Yeah?
What's more? Well, I alsoknow that this is the voice I
should probably be doing it, andrather than the full ADHD speed and on

(01:14:36):
that be yourself. Practice it likethis. It is probably pretty good.
Yeah, as somebody who himself hasnever been diagnosed, but I'm I'm ricochet
rabbit. More planning equals less editing, no planning, lots of editing,
and that will solve a lot ofyour problems too. So Dave Jackson's advice
was just like, hey, youwant to become a professional mountain climber,

(01:14:57):
I'll tell you what you do.You go to the playground, get on
the Jungle Jim tracks. That's well, he was saying. That was he
was saying. It was you know, audacity was too much of a hurdle.
So I'm like, well, allright, what's easier than audacity?
Talking to your phone? Can Iask if if trying just like a little
like improv three minute TikTok things wouldbe like about the equivalent type of experience
in your opinion, like, willthat be about the same or is because

(01:15:19):
there's the extra film element? Willthat not quite port over doing that?
Then you might like doing more touch? Yeah, content creation is content creation.
The bottom line is just don't beboring. Also, well, I
feel like I'm taking up a lotof space, but I also got pretty
much exactly the direction I was hopingagain, and by that I mean like
information and feedback. So thank youall very much. The three minute podcast

(01:15:41):
is there's nothing wrong with that atall. There's a podcast, the Daily,
like a daily cybersecurity news podcast thatI listened from the Internet Storm Center.
I've been listening to that thing forfor years now and it's like five
minutes every morning. It's awesome.Well shit, I think that's exactly what
I'm gonna do to give a try. There's this a little three minute random

(01:16:02):
TikTok podcast. Thank you so much. And I love the idea that there's
a three minute cybersecurity podcast. Isit just somebody screaming we're fucked for a
sustained three minutes yep, one don'tget hacked. That's it. There's no
step two. Turn off your computersnow the ends. Don't password, don't
use password as your password. Yehave withthing else Dave Jones. No,

(01:16:24):
no, I'm good. Okay,Well we'll go ahead and go through here.
We're over, which is the newproblem. I appreciate everybody for hanging
out past the top of the hour, and it's nice to meet you Jesse
and then some of the other peoplethat are new to the space and debating
on getting into podcasting. That's whywe do this. We'll go around for
closing thoughts and put a book intothis. I think for me it's really

(01:16:45):
have two things. The first isI think there's definitely a jamingo and the
people with commenting throughout this Twitter spacehighlighting the fact that there's definitely more need
of an educational piece for the work, the great work that you and Adam
are doing. Dave Jones. Sorry, there's a lot of days going on
around here. I just think,uh, it just to me, it

(01:17:06):
just shows that the there's a gapbetween understanding what you all are doing,
and I think this has been avery educational space. I appreciate you taking
them. Yeah. Absolutely. Ifif anybody you know, we'll be doing
a presentation on this podcast movement,and I hope that helps people too and

(01:17:28):
encourage people to come and and seethat. Will be going through every single
feature. Adam is going to startoff with with a whole presentation about value
for value, how to do itthe correct way, and then we're literally
just going through every single feature andgiving a given a thumbnail sketch of how
it works and what it looks like. Definitely come to that. And if

(01:17:49):
I'm if anybody you know sees meat podcast movement, I'm always happy to
chat for a while or do abeer or whatever. Awesome. And my
second thing is, it's a questionfor Melissa, is this haircut of your
son similar to Dave Jackson's down therein that picture. I think it is.
So I didn't mean to insult you. The mullet, it's all he

(01:18:13):
can't well. He goes to thisharbor and he walks in and comes out
two seconds later with a mullet,and he goes, how do you like
it? And I was like,I just I couldn't stop laughing. And
it's because he likes the way itlooks under his football helmet and also some
girl likes it, so but yesit does. It does look a little
bit like Dave's and David, look, you you rock it a lot better

(01:18:34):
than my son. I don't thinkthere's a mode in that picture. I
look, she was talking about theEllen degenerous top half. Oh my goodness,
there just kidding. I'm sorry,No, im sorry, all right,
Greg, what you got for pleasantthoughts? Thanks guys, Thanks Melissa.

(01:18:55):
No. I think that I wasactually really excited to hear from you,
Dave and learn more about podcasting todot oh, because you know,
I think it kind of gets abad rap, because you know, the
value for value gets wrapped into likethe core, you know, the like
the core of it, and thenyou have this kind of religious debate about

(01:19:17):
crypto and or not crypto Is itgood? Is it bad? And it's
kind of lumped into that, andI like to hear about all the other
stuff that makes it great and allthe other good work that you're doing,
because that's just one thing. It'sit's a it's a you know, a
good thing and a complex thing andan important thing, but it's only one
thing. So I really appreciated hearingabout that. Okay, the most hated

(01:19:43):
man in podcasting Tanny Campbell, whydo you encourage it? You know,
I came in late. I wishI hadn't. I'm sure I probably missed
ten or fifteen minutes worth of goodconversation. I'm sorry about that, Dave.
I'm looking forward to spending some timewith you a podcast movement to chit
chat about some of the things we'vealready talked about in DM, but also

(01:20:03):
some of the stuff we talked abouthere, because i'd like to be a
you know, I'd like to finda way to be an advocate for moving
the specs forward or moving the workforward, even though I'm not you know,
I'm not a coder of any kind, so I can't help you in
that department. Uh, but it'llbe interesting to get to talk to you,
and hopefully I can lend a handin some meaningful way or at least

(01:20:23):
learn better. And I just enjoyedhearing some of your answers. I hope
I didn't put anything to you toohard. No, no, no at
all, that's absolutely not. It'sgreat, Jim Mallard. I like are
some of the thoughts that I've alreadyheard. But I'm also I'm going to
pick one very specific thing and mentionedthis, and I think it's kind of
not to be lost, and maybeI'm out the lunch, but maybe I'm

(01:20:45):
not. When we're starting to addtranscriptions, that mix shows more discoverable discoverable,
which will be good for people besidesJoe Rogan, well said, Hall
of Famer, my good friend,Dave Jackson, what are you closing,
thoughts man? Well, number onenew podcast apps dot com is where you
need to go so that you canstart streaming SATs to your favorite podcast.

(01:21:10):
And I had one other point,and I had it and then it went
away, so it must not havebeen that important. But thanks for having
me. Always great to talk aboutthis and look forward to sitting in on
Dave's presentation of podcast Moving. You'regetting old on me, Dave. That's
it. I had it, man, it was right there and it was
like boom, you said, allright, Hall of Famer, and I
laughed and was like went right outthe window. Well, I think you

(01:21:32):
want to fall on and I can'tget up. Just to keep you safe,
that's it. Dave Jones will giveyou. I know you just kind
of went on a small plug there, but I do want to give everybody
in here listening and the opportunity tohear about where to find all the awesome
stuff that you're doing. Yeah,probably for anybody that's a developer, the

(01:21:55):
best place is go to podcast indexdot social. If you need an invite
for that. We had to closeit up and do an invite thing because
it's it just started getting hit withspammers. But if you want to join
in, there's lots of developers therefrom the hosting side and from the app
side, and it's a very openplace that shares code and ideas all the
time about podcasting two point zero.Hit me up Dave at podcast index dot

(01:22:20):
org is my email address, andI'll send you an invite. I would
love to have you. If you'rea podcaster, just keep keep your eyes
peeled with your hosting company. Letthem know that you want some of this
stuff in an easy way. Ifyou're going to be a podcast movement,
come see the talk and grab mein the hall whatever you need. But

(01:22:44):
yeah, just joined joined in thoseplaces and we do all of our work
in the open. Nothing's hidden.If you want to download the entire index
feed database, you can do that. It's right on the homepage of podcasting
podcast index dot org. So everything'sopen and free and just participate. Everyone
to again, man, it wasvery nice for you take in the time
to do this, and uh,thank you for contributing. You know,

(01:23:06):
you and Adam Curry and the teamfor all you're doing for podcasts and so
I appreciate it. Yeah, thanksa lot for having me appreciate it,
no problem, still losing my voicefor from uh the covid here Greg take
us home. Thanks a lot foreverybody coming. If you want to re
listen to this show or listen topast shows, you can go to Podcastingpower

(01:23:28):
hoour dot com and it's at thesame time. So if you're here late,
we started at nine pm Eastern Standardtime, so you know enter if
you came in nine fifteen, wedid start at nine So yeah, your
piece of no no. I justusing you as a as a way to
remind everyone else. So thank youfor being a good sport and we'll see

(01:23:53):
you next week. Be good,be safe and don't litter and unfollow Tanner
Campbell if you're following him, please, I love you ahead. Thank you
for listening to the Podcasting Power Hour. Everyone is free to participate on Twitter
spaces every Monday at nine pm Easterntime. To join, just follow Jeff

(01:24:16):
at podcast underscore Father or Greg atIndie Droppin'. If you found this podcast
helpful, go into your podcast appand write a quick review. Other podcasters
will see it and know this showis worth listening to. Also, I'll
put a few links in the shownotes for ways you can support the show.

(01:24:38):
I think by now you know welove our coffee. Have a great
week. Thank you for checking outthis episode of Eddie Podcaster. I really
do appreciate it. If you're interestedin learning more about this podcast, you
can go to podcastfather dot com.If you're interested in all the different kind
of work that I'm doing, youcan go to Jeff Townsend dot Media.
Contact form on there various other differentpodcasts and projects that I'm evolved in that

(01:25:00):
I think you will enjoy. Butagain, thank you for supporting me,
and make sure you support any droppingnetwork like we cover to the beginning,
get your podcast featured on there.Until I see you next time, take
care of yourself and keep being youand keep being great. Jeff Townsend Media

(01:25:28):
sees you. Good night. Andthe question is do I stay here?
Will you be back? Are yougonna come back? Will you be back.
Are you coming back

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