February 23, 2025 • 66 mins
Join Dr. Steve Noseworthy as he engages in a captivating conversation with Dr. Stuart McGill, a preeminent figure in spine function, injury prevention, and rehabilitation. In this episode, Dr. McGill, a professor emeritus at the University of Waterloo, shares his life's journey, from his extensive academic achievements to his personal commitment to health and fitness.
Explore Dr. McGill's philosophy on maintaining an active lifestyle, his views on training methodologies, and his dedication to helping both athletes and everyday individuals enhance their physical capabilities. Learn how his unique approach to movement competency and body mechanics can transform not just the lives of his patients but also anyone seeking to improve their overall wellness.
This episode is packed with inspiring stories, wisdom on enduring life's physical demands, and engaging anecdotes, including a lighthearted discussion about Dr. McGill's iconic mustache. Don't miss the opportunity to gain valuable insights into achieving a balanced, fulfilling life through enhanced movement and fitness strategies.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey everyone, welcome to the Funkbed Nation podcast.
I'm your host, dr Steve Noser.
The views and opinions ofguests on this podcast are their
own and may differ from my own,but as always, I try to be
respectful of other people'sopinions, even when we might
disagree.
My guest today is Dr StuartMcGill.
Dr McGill is a professoremeritus at the University of
(00:27):
Waterloo in Ontario, canada, anda world-renowned lecturer and
expert in spine function, injuryprevention and rehabilitation.
Dr McGill has written more than200 scientific publications on
the topics of lumbar function,low back injury mechanisms and
the investigation of tissueloading during rehabilitation
(00:48):
programs.
He's received several awardsfor his work, including the
Volvo Bioengineering Award forlow back pain research from
Sweden, and is a recipient ofthe Order of Canada, the second
highest merit award in thenation.
Dr McGill has been an invitedlecturer at many universities,
has delivered more than 200addresses and 70 keynotes to
(01:11):
societies around the world.
He has written four books andcontributed 32 chapters to
others.
He's sat on the editorialboards of many journals in the
physical medicine and rehabspace and recently has appeared
as a guest on other podcastswith Andrew Huberman, peter
Attia and Mark Bell.
As a consultant, he hasprovided expertise on assessment
(01:33):
and reduction of the risk oflow back injury to government
agencies, corporations,professional athletes and sports
teams of all varieties.
Most recently, he accompaniedTeam Canada to the Paris
Olympics.
When Dr McGill agreed to join mefor a conversation, I was
determined to not simplyrecreate other interviews he had
done by asking him about thecauses of low back pain.
(01:55):
Rather, we delved into hiscareer, his personal and
professional philosophies onhealth and fitness, and he
shared several inspiring storiesabout both professional
athletes and regular people thathe has worked with and how he
derives deep satisfaction fromhelping people change their
lives.
And yes, I felt compelled toask him about his iconic
(02:18):
mustache.
Let's get to the interview.
So you guys up in NorthernOntario, you've been hit with
two major snowstorms and I wasjust kind of wondering because,
I mean, you're a little bitolder than I am.
I think you're 67.
Yeah, yeah, so you know.
(02:39):
I was just wondering.
There's a lot of 67 year oldsthat wouldn't climb up on top of
the roof and shovel off a meteror so of snow.
What is it that you do to keepyourself going, that you feel
confident, that you can meet therigors and the demands of
living in the great white north?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I think it's just a view of life.
I mean, I've trained since Iwas 15.
In the early days it was to bea better athlete and train for
sport and probably look a littlebit better, look a little bit
(03:30):
better.
But these days it's to stillmaintain capability and we all
have a little bit of miles onour bodies now.
And it's even more importantNow.
I don't know if you want to getpersonal about this, but you
said what do I do?
In the old days I wouldstrength train almost
exclusively, and once in a whileI'd go for a run or whatever
and think about cardiovascularthings.
(03:51):
But now these days, yes, Istill strength train, but only a
couple of days a week.
I do much more mobility worknow to look after a few of the
specific injuries, shall we say,and more cardiovascular as well
(04:14):
.
In the winter, if it's not ablizzard like it is today, I'll
go for a ski or do some of therecreational things if I'm not
digging out, or digging outneighbors, which is what the
rest of my day is going to be,and the other little wisdoms
that I've picked up and I don'tknow if you would say the same
(04:37):
thing I've learned that if Ihave to work hard, don't do the
same thing two days in a row,and that keeps me training and
adapting positively rather thanaccumulating more pain and
stress.
Shall we say so little thingslike that?
(04:58):
I certainly drink less.
I eat better as a consequence,I think I'm sleeping better as
well, but maybe it's just notbeing at the university and
dealing with the challengesthere every day that keep you up
at night.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, the psycho-emotional.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
You say the same thing about as you gain a
personal wisdom, you learn yourbody and training and
physicality.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
It's not negotiable I totally agree, and especially
like in this age where so manyof the conversations that are
happening um are focusing on notjust longevity.
But you know, my point is thatit's great to live very long
time, but you want to be be, youwant to be capable, right, and
(05:47):
you can use the word fitness.
You know that that word in yourtraining philosophy was that
something you feel like you wereforced into as you got older,
(06:10):
or was that more of a consciouschoice of my priorities has
shifted.
My understanding has shifted.
Or maybe you've just lost thezeal to lift hard, lift strong
and be super strong.
And you know, if you shareyours, then I'll share mine when
you're done.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Well, I would say all of the above.
As I was approaching 60, youknow, I'd had a fairly demanding
role at the university.
I ran the whole well, two spinelabs in the research clinic and
I was department chair forquite a number of years as well.
(06:49):
And I reached the point where Irealized I'm a glorified
computer operator.
When I started, my firstappointment was 1986.
Our lab didn't even have alaptop computer yet and it was
not a physical job, but it was ajob that was always moving.
(07:12):
And then, as computers becamemore involved in virtually
everything that we did, I foundI would walk to work, and that
was by choice.
I owned a home right on theedge of campus for the reason of
walking to work every day, butI would sit and I would become
(07:37):
achy and I thought this isn'twhat I signed on for.
So when I was 60, I retired,not to stop working but to stop
that lifestyle.
So that was a conscious choiceand at that time I thought all
right, now let's really ashealthy as I need to be.
(08:02):
So I stopped drinking less andeating better.
I didn't have departmentmeetings and university
functions to go to several timesa week, which I was going to
before and I developed this ideawhich I've called the biblical
(08:26):
training week.
And I use the word biblicalbecause every major religion has
a Sabbath which is a day ofrest and biologically,
psychologically, it is soimportant just to have one day
per week where all of thesystems adapt.
(08:47):
So you've stressed them and nowyou've ensured that positive
adaptation and it just works.
And two days a week I'llstrength train.
Two days a week I mobilitytrain.
Two days a week I'll traincardiovascular.
I mobility train.
Two days a week I'll traincardiovascular.
But I still work a ruralphysical life.
(09:11):
In the winter You've alreadymentioned clearing snow.
In the summer I'll spend a fewdays splitting firewood for the
following year as an example,meaning that that checks all the
boxes.
So I'm free that day to choose.
I may go for a swim or a bikeride or a ski or whatever.
(09:34):
And, as I've already mentioned,part of the other rules that go
along with that is don't do twothings, do the same thing two
days in a row.
So that formalizes thisbiblical training week.
And I wake up in the morningwith my day planner and I write
(09:54):
down what is on the docket interms of training and I write it
in my day planner so I ensurethat I get it in and I
capability to recover or repairwas whatever that level was.
It was both yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
And you know, just to go into my story, like I just
turned 60 this year, I justturned 60 this year and you know
, I think I mentioned to youlast year when you were talking,
that I, when I was 50, well, itwas 2020.
So I was 56.
I had both of my hips replacedwithin five weeks of each other
and you know, it turned out Ihad a bilateral cam deformity in
(11:00):
my femoral heads and so by theage of 56, I was essentially
bone on bone and had been thatway for quite a long time.
And so for me, you know,adopting a more well-rounded
approach to fitness andcertainly the exercise component
of that, it was kind of forcedupon me because, given if I was
(11:22):
just given my nose and I couldgo wherever I wanted, I tend
towards the speed and thestrength stuff.
You know I I played basketballand volleyball when I was in
high school, college, even aftercollege, um, I was a sprinter,
I was a jumper, and so put me ina gym and guess what I want to
do?
I want to do heavy, hard andfast.
Not that I was ever like asuper strong guy, maybe above
(11:51):
average, but I wouldn't enter apowerlifting or a strongman
competition by any means.
But strength feels normal to me, speed feels normal.
It's hard for me to slow down,for example, it's hard for me to
get on an elliptical machineand just cruise for 30, 40, 50
minutes, and part of it is mymind is just screaming at me,
like you know, you have to movefaster, you have to move faster.
(12:12):
But when I had to deal with theimpact of the hip and really it
was two resurfacing procedures,not traditional replacements
that time in my life itbasically took me 10 years to
come to grips with the fact thatthis was an inevitability,
because I kept trying to fixeverything any way I could think
of, from chiropractic tostretching, mobilization.
(12:35):
I did stem cells and PRP.
I did all kinds of things andevery six months I had to give
up something because my pain wastoo great, my mobility had gone
and by the time I opted to havethe surgery, I couldn't stand
for more than two minutes at atime.
And this was 56 years old andfour years ago.
(12:56):
And now I'm to the point where,like, quite literally, those
surgeries changed my life,changed my life and
unfortunately, two years later Ihad major shoulder
reconstructive surgery forrotator cuff tears, bicep tendon
tears, cartilage tears that I'massuming came from many years
of being an outside hitter, apower hitter, playing volleyball
(13:17):
at a national level, and so Iwas kind of forced into it.
But the more I learned as afunctional medicine practitioner
and obviously tried to applythe things that I teach to other
people in my life, the more asI get older I see, logically I
see the need to have this morewell-rounded approach, and so
I'm kind of interested in yourthought process and how you
(13:41):
settled in on of all thedifferent things that you could
have chosen.
How did you settle in on themixture of things that you're
doing?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
That's an interesting question and I would have to
answer it.
It was a combination of mypersonality and my academic
training, so obviously I waswell aware of the role of
movement in health.
(14:16):
Every single system in yourbody requires movement for
optimal health and function.
Right, not too much and not toolittle.
So this we know.
But it's also my personality to, if I know that, I try and put
(14:37):
it into action.
There are people who know itand don't put it into action.
And there are people who don'tknow it and put it into action
and are probably non-optimal in,uh, the stress that they put on
their body Right, and, uh, theyend up with, uh, uh,
non-optimal, uh health, shall wesay.
(14:59):
So, um, yeah, it's, it's, uh.
That's my answer science pluspersonality.
And I'm curious because here weare now, we both have Celtic
genes.
Yeah, I know the hip structure.
I know the cam deformity.
(15:21):
You know I'm hip replaced aswell.
Yeah, I know the cam deformity.
You know I'm hip replaced aswell, and I strength trained
probably too heavy and too deepfor those hips that I was given,
and look where we both ended up.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, and that teaches you a wisdom too?
Yeah, it certainly does.
And you know, I think this isone of one of probably many
complaints that I have aboutpeople going, say, to the
internet and fitness influencers.
Um, that, and I think that,well it's, it's part of a larger
(15:59):
problem, because when we thinkabout fitness, we have, we have
an idea of what that means.
And you know, somebody might gowell, fit are the ultra
marathoners because they can run50 miles at a time.
Or fit is an Ironman athlete,because not only do they run,
they swim and they bike as well.
And to somebody else, it's thewinner of the CrossFit Games.
(16:21):
You know the fittest man andthe fittest woman on earth.
The winner of the CrossFitGames.
You know the fittest man andthe fittest woman on earth.
But we have this tendency, whenwe start to set our own goals,
to look at what someone else iscapable of doing and then think
that we have to model ourtraining after that and we have
to be that.
I've certainly fallen into thatmany times in my past and I'm
(16:42):
trying for myself, especiallynow as I get older and I'm
dealing with some limitationsthat I didn't have to deal with
in my youth.
I'm trying to make sure that Ifocus on this idea that,
whatever level of fitness I wantto achieve, it should be a
highly personalized thing, andmaybe it should start with well,
(17:03):
what are my goals, what isreally important to me?
And so, again, as you wereputting together Stu's mix of
things that seemed to work forStu, did you have an active
thought process where you satdown and thought what am I
trying to achieve here?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
The answer is yes and it came partly from some of the
experimentation that we've doneover the years.
People might think this israther oblique, but I was
involved in my consulting withseveral professional sports
teams and professional sports,and the example I'm going to
(17:44):
give is the combine.
In other words, in the NFL, theplayers who are drafted or are
going into the draft go througha combine, which is a set of
tests in which they're scoredand they are ranked for the
(18:04):
draft.
Partly by Now, let's hope thatthe exercises chosen have some
content, validity in terms ofperforming well and having some
resilience, not getting injuredin the NFL.
Well, I also was involved inthe basketball combine and also
(18:28):
in the NHL, some of the teststhat they'd done there.
Now you mentioned the hallmarkof fitness in many people's
minds is a cardiovascularmeasure.
So a marathoner, a triathlete,and I think it was co-opted the
definition of fitness by thephysiologists to mean a high VO2
(18:54):
max.
Well, isn't that interesting?
In the NHL many years ago, oneof the tests was how far can a
player run in 10 minutes?
So a surrogate ofcardiovascular fitness.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Kind of like a Cooper mile test or something like
that Exactly Now let's go backand look at the demands of
playing in the NHL.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
It is a 45-second anaerobic blast.
You get off the ice, you restfor two or three minutes, try
and recover your heart rate downand then you go again.
In other words, as it turnedout, the players who put the
most pucks in the net had a lowVO2 max but the longest
(19:48):
horizontal jump distance, inother words, explosive power.
But they also had the abilityto recover their heart rate very
quick.
And I remember one Russianplayer who I thought really
taught North Americans how totrain for hockey, and this was a
consult in the NHL and he had aback injury and his team medics
(20:14):
were telling him you shouldride a bike to maintain your
fitness for hockey while you'rerehabbing your back.
And he looked at me and he said, when they put bike on ice, I
ride bike, I don't ride bike.
And you know and it was such abeautiful demonstration and you
(20:37):
know, when we look at the NFLbattery of tests, the record
holders for the various testsvery rarely make the NFL as a
player.
So what is the validity?
And, as I came to learn, nbabasketball probably has the most
(20:59):
content valid set of tests.
Content valid set of tests andwe would measure rebound
performance, for example.
So do you think vertical jumphas a high correlation with a
rebound scores?
Well, in our studies it wasn'tthe most dominant test and you
(21:28):
would enjoy this as a as avolleyball player.
It was actually a wingspan tipto tip with the arms out to the
side, um, but also for reboundsit was, and the strength coaches
will go bananas on me now itwas weaker hands.
So now my hypothesis was it wasa bit more finesse with the
hands.
Yeah, that makes sense.
(22:00):
The demands of a sport and thenletting that inform how we're
going to measure a person.
Can they meet the demands?
And we're going to train whatthey cannot meet but is demanded
of them.
So that is a broader concept offitness.
(22:22):
And can we build a body that iscomprehensive in those
abilities to meet the demand of,in those examples, their sport?
But now we're talking aboutyour and my patients.
Are we working with them toreally understand their life and
(22:44):
what the demands are and that'sa full spectrum, full
physicality, full psychologicaland social demand and are we
helping them choose the mostoptimal approaches to gain that
capability?
Now that's life.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
And you know it's.
I think that's a wonderfulanalogy, and I'm certainly not
the one who coined the phrasethat sport or life is sport
right or the sport of life.
There are certainly physicaldemands that are placed on on us
these days and you know, modernsociety has changed a lot.
That are placed on us thesedays, and modern society has
changed a lot.
Sitting is the new smoking, asthey say, and so many of us are
(23:33):
kind of chained behind a desk.
Obviously, when I waspracticing as a chiropractor, I
was on my feet all day long.
But when I transitioned intofunctional medicine and then
went virtual, you know this iswhat I do and you know, now that
I have done podcasting and allthat kind of stuff, I spend the
vast majority of my time sitting, and in my office situation
(23:55):
it's, you know, living full timein an RV and traveling around
the continent it's hard toimplement like a standing desk
or a walking desk strategy, andso I have to try to compensate
by taking periodic breaks,getting outside, maybe swinging
a kettlebell, doing some airsquats, and then making sure
that I either get to the gym orget outdoors to do something
(24:19):
physical.
And you know, stu, the firsttwo years that my wife and I
traveled full-time in our RV.
I had an Olympic barbell andabout 300 pounds of bumper
plates and kettlebells and a25-pound medicine ball.
We traveled with that all thetime, and then I realized that
it was just too cumbersome tokeep slinging that stuff all
(24:41):
around from, you know, fromDallas or Texas to Newfoundland,
and so we decided that whereverwe were, we were just going to
join the gym, even if it was fortwo weeks.
And it just so turns out thatour lifestyle we're in several
places in Canada and the US forsometimes two, three months at a
time, and so we get a chance toget into a rhythm and, you know
(25:02):
, try to maintain our fitnessthat way.
But going back to this idea ofcombined testing should reflect
the rigors and demands of thesport.
If we look at life as sport,what are the demands Like if I
were to sit down, if you were tosit down with somebody who's
(25:22):
not an athlete per se, butthey're interested in not just
longevity but functionalcapacity, what I call aging
independence, right, being ableto get up and down off the
toilet when you're 90 years oldand not have to have someone
shower you and dress you.
What do you think are thefundamentals, like, what's your
personal philosophy?
(25:42):
And maybe yours is going tocome more from data than it is
just from your own musings, butI'd like to hear your musings
what do you think are thedemands of aging when it comes
to this idea that life is sportand we have to maintain, we have
to train for that?
Speaker 2 (26:02):
I'm wanting to make sure I interpret your question
correctly.
Sure, well, let me start andcorrect me if I'm going down the
wrong path here.
Living life robustly meanswe're going to cross the line
(26:24):
once in a while and we are goingto get a little injury, or it
might be pardon the language butit might be just a shit happens
kind of a situation.
You flip on ice, you crack yourpelvis and you know that can be
really devastating for somepeople or you fall down the
stairs or whatever it is.
As we accumulate these injuries, it takes a piece out of your
(26:49):
ability to do what you once didand found easy when you were 16.
So where I'm headed with this,for people like you and I, we
have to do a very thoroughassessment of that person's
history and measure where theyare struggling and where are the
(27:14):
impediments to them living thelife that they currently are
demanded and really want to live.
So I guess my answer really isthat assessment guides us every
single time on what fitnessmeans for that particular person
(27:36):
and how we're going to get themas capable as we possibly can
in the limitations of theirinjury history and their
surgical history.
Disease I hate the word disease,um, but shall we say,
non-compromised healthmechanisms?
Uh, yeah, anyway is is.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Am I headed in the right direction with that, yeah,
you are, it's, and I guessmaybe this falls into that
domain that you hate, which isgeneralizations.
But I would imagine that,individual circumstance aside,
there are certain fundamentalsthat most of us should be
(28:17):
maintaining and training ourcapacity in as we get older
capacity and as we get older,and you know, there would be a
certain need for baselinemobility, a certain need for
baseline strength, a certainneed for VO2 max.
You know you don't have to be,you don't have to have a VO2 max
of, you know, 75 to just livelife in general.
But flexibility, mobility, evenagility, you know you mentioned
(28:42):
falling down, breaking the hip,like, we know that one of the
big things that allows people toavoid tripping, falling and
breaking a hip is is a simplething like foot speed, right,
being able to adjust yourposition as, as your brain
senses, okay, I'm going down,can you adjust your position and
catch yourself.
So you need speed before youneed the strength to prevent the
(29:03):
fall.
And so, you know, in my world,in my mind, which is not always
a great place to be, you know,I'm always thinking about what
are the fundamentals, because,with the clients that I interact
with, I see a wide range ofpeople who are absolutely
willing to embrace physicalactivity and exercise as part of
(29:25):
their health journey, so tospeak, and others who they've
never really exercised beforeand they don't know where to
start and they're not even surethey want to do it.
And so how do we boil this ideadown to?
These are the fundamentals.
Now you can listen to peoplelike Peter Attia, for example,
who's last year or so has beentalking a lot about grip
(29:47):
strength and farmer's carriesand hang time, and Andy Galpin
talks about knee extension testsand the quality or the
correlation between quadricepsstrength and longevity and that
kind of stuff.
So I'm trying to get for myselfin talking to my clients.
I'm trying to develop a set ofbasic guidelines that, if you're
(30:09):
not going to go beyond, youhave to.
These are the minimum standardsyou must meet if you expect to
be healthy and well in thefuture.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Do you want me to riff on that a little bit?
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Absolutely Stop me from talking that a little bit.
Absolutely Okay, stop me fromtalking.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
There's one thing that I would add I thought that
was a good list thecardiovascular, the mobility
aspect, plus the strength, plus.
You also mentioned footworkthere, which is also very
important.
So the two things I would addto that and it's a broad
category category, but it'scalled movement competency.
(30:44):
Is the person aware of how tomove without creating real
stress concentrations at alocation in their body?
A stress concentration resultsfrom posture and movement.
So if they have well, my area,obviously in the low back and
(31:06):
every time they tie their shoethey get a little uncomfortable
trigger in their back and thatcan set them off for the rest of
the day in a very negative way,can they tie their shoe in a
way that doesn't replicate thattrigger?
Well, for most people, if theyput their foot up, don't sit in
the chair and tie your shoe, butput your foot up on the seat
(31:28):
pan of the chair.
So now you're in a lungeposition, but the key is to take
your hips down to the target,meaning close to the heel.
So if they have the physicalwherewithal let's say the left
foot is on the chair push theleft knee way past the toes and
(31:48):
bend the stance leg right knee.
Now the hips are right down atthe heel, if their hips will
allow this, and now they can tietheir shoe without stressing
their back and settingthemselves up negatively for the
rest of the day.
So there would be an example.
We call them movement hacks, orspine hygiene, shall we say,
(32:09):
but it's a way to reduce stressconcentrations that now gives
them a pain-free capacity forthe rest of the day.
So movement competency would beone.
And the other thing that came tomy mind listening to you was
real risk versus perceived risk.
What is the real risk of, steve, when you were playing
(32:34):
volleyball and lifting heavy andthat kind of thing?
Now I'm just guessing and itmight have been crossing the
line with a heavy deadlift thatyour hormones just ran ahead,
that big Y chromosome, and youthought I'm just going to squat
this no matter what, rather thanabandoning the lift because all
(32:55):
your buddies are there watching.
But I'll tell you now, thebiggest risk I have is a slip
and fall on the ice, and Ialmost had two of them this
morning walking the dog.
There's ice under, particularlywhere they've just plowed and
(33:19):
you stumble and you're older, doyou have?
And to get to Andy Galpin'spoint, do you have the hip
flexion power to get the leg outin front of you, because to
arrest a fall the base ofsupport has to run ahead of the
(33:39):
center of mass.
Physically it's the only way toarrest a fall, but that
requires hip power.
So, okay, say the person islosing the footwork ability
because it's hip power, allright.
Well, how can we do that?
Do they have shoulderwherewithal?
Could we do a Roman chair hipflexion power training?
Or is it just simply a matterof starting standing on one leg
and doing knee circles with theother leg?
(34:00):
Maybe it's ballroom dance class, maybe it's a little Tai Chi?
I mean, you know, it's endless,but the optimum still remains
the optimum, and a really goodclinician will have the ability
to measure what that personneeds, understand their real
(34:23):
risk and mitigate it with thevery best training program for
them.
So again, I get right back toyou know, I wonder why people
come and see me, because on theinternet or anywhere else
there's nowhere where McGill isout there advertising to see
patients.
And yet I'll wake up in themorning and there may be a
(34:46):
couple hundred emails there fromaround the world requesting
appointments.
Every single one of them hasfailed.
No one has addressed their realimpediments and they're still
in pain.
And when you see their dossiers, when they come they've seen a
dozen different people.
(35:07):
So those are the people thatcome and maybe I'm biased, but I
have to get to the level ofindividuality to sort them out.
If they were easy and theycould be fixed by generic
approaches, they would have beenGreat.
I'm so happy.
But you see, it's my bias.
(35:29):
It's the people who come andsee me.
They are the challenged ones.
Nor do I want to seenon-challenging people.
I should never see them.
There's plenty of physios andall kinds of health professions
that can deal with them.
But anyway, there's probably anatural selection bias in why I
(35:50):
have some of the opinions that Ido.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
And that's analogous to my experience as well, and it
goes back to what I was sayingabout the blessing and the curse
of the internet and thesefitness influencers and just the
immediate access to so muchinformation, which by its very
nature has to be general.
It has to be and, for better orfor worse, there are a lot of
(36:15):
people that have nominalproblems that can find general
information applied tothemselves and it ends up in a
good result.
But you know, like you, thekind of practice that I have on
the functional medicine side.
It's the people who've seen six, seven, eight other doctors for
whether it's a gut issue orhead injury or autoimmune
(36:36):
problems or blood sugar issuesor whatever the case is.
But you know, as as you'retalking, I I was reminded of a
story and I'm sure you'llremember this and I would love
you to tell it here.
It was a story of an older ladywho was at a crossroads in her
life that people were tellingher she has to go to an assisted
(36:57):
living home.
And, if I remember the story,the details, you had her up on
stage in, say, an auditorium andthere was a bunch of physicians
present and you examined herand made some very simple
recommendations that changed herlife.
I think this is a beautifulillustration of the
individualization, but alsocapturing this idea of what's
(37:21):
important and what we needdepends on what's important to
us, what our goals are and ourstatus and station in life.
Do you remember the story I'mtalking about?
I don't want to give too manydetails because you're doing a
way better job than I am.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Well, I do.
Actually.
It's a very emotional story,but I think I told that on Peter
Atiyah's podcast.
Okay yeah, do you want a quick?
Speaker 1 (37:43):
summary of it Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
I think it's a beautiful story.
Yeah, I was at a medicalfacility in Europe and
occasionally I will get askedwould you come and see a few
patients in front of our medicalstaff because they want to see
how you assess and how you goabout things?
And we'll bring on three peopleand you get 20 minutes with
(38:08):
each one.
Well, that's a terrible timeconstraint for me because I very
rarely can.
Well, of course, I can watch aperson walk up and I've got a
pretty good hypothesis Right.
But to be thorough, it usuallytakes longer than 20 minutes.
But this was a 20-minuteexperience I'd just seen.
I think it was a strengthathlete, like a rugby player or
(38:30):
something.
And then they brought up thenext person and it was an older
I was going to say an elderlyperson who was probably two or
three years older than me.
But anyway, she came onto thestage walking with great
trepidation, but you could seethe emotions.
(38:50):
She was stooped, she wasdefeated, her head was down.
Just if you look at a clinicalpsychology textbook for
depression, that is the demeanorthat she was showing.
So I didn't need a survey or aquestionnaire to understand.
Was this woman depressed?
She gave it away in hermovement.
(39:11):
You know, the great Americandance teacher, martha Graham,
used to say movement is thewindow into the soul and if you
can't see that, brother, you'rein the wrong profession.
Anyway, so we could see all ofthis as she came up and I said
well, tell me your story, steve.
(39:33):
She never mentioned her backpain and she said, well, and to
cut to the chase, she said whenI sit on the toilet and try and
get up, my therapist has told methat I'm going to fall and no
one will find me for the nextday.
And who's going to feed the cat?
You know?
(39:53):
And she started to cry who'sgoing to feed the cat?
And you know, just showing howit wasn't about her, it was
about the love for her cat andthis was the biggest thing in
her life.
Okay, I better pay attentionanyway.
So I said could you, uh,someone bring out a stool and
(40:15):
that's our simulated toilet.
Would you sit on the toilet?
Now I'm being dismissed and Ican just feel it, with all the
surgeons and highfalutin medicalpeople in the audience.
This is a bit I'm sorry to saythis, but it's a bit beneath
them.
Show me your pain.
And so I watched her sit on thestool, just plopping, total
(40:40):
collapse, no idea of how toeccentrically control her body
to avoid painful stress.
And then I said okay, could youstand up off the toilet?
Now?
Imagine her feet are in frontof her, her knees are together
and she's trying to use momentumto get off and then, as she
(41:01):
starts to get up, her legscollapse, just as Andy would say
.
She didn't have thigh strength,didn't know how to use her hips
, etc.
So I helped her to make sureshe didn't fall and when she was
standing I said well, theydidn't know baseball in this
particular country.
(41:22):
But I said let's try this styleof squat and I know some of your
people won't be able to seethis.
They're listening.
But I'm going to make my handsbig.
So there's a big V between mythumb and my hands.
I'm going to stand up, put thehands on the front of my thighs
and run my hands down my kneesso that my kneecap is now
(41:46):
between my thumb and my hands.
I'm going to wrap my handsaround my knees and then at that
point I had to correct hercenter of mass over her base of
support and some of thepositions of her body.
So how I did it was I got herknees over the balls of her feet
, meaning that her hips had tobe way behind her heels, which
(42:09):
forced her upper body to leanforward a fair amount, and she
was humped up like a camel, fullspine flexion.
And I showed her lift your tail, or, pardon me, ma'am, but
stick your bum out.
She got a little giggle out ofthat and you know it's easier if
, because I have white hair, Ican get away with some of these
(42:32):
things, and again, it's acoaching style that you develop.
If I did that, if I was 25years old with black hair, I
probably wouldn't have gottenaway with it.
So you know, again, the wholemilieu is something that you
have to be aware of.
So a little bit of teasing andcajoling works in certain
(42:53):
situations.
So, lift your tail, stick yourbum out, in other words, gain a
neutral lordosis for people likeyou and I.
I said do you have discomfortor pain?
She says no.
I said, good, stand up.
And right away she went intospine flexion and lifted herself
with her back and I said, okay,well, let's repeat Slide your
(43:14):
hands down your thighs, knees,over the balls of your feet this
time.
Hollow your low back, and Iwant you to keep that, but we're
going to enforce it just alittle bit, and it was just
tricking her.
I said you're a leaning tower,push your toes down and lean
forward.
Now show me your beautifultricep muscles.
And I just tapped the back ofher, her arm, to show her where
(43:35):
those were.
Now.
Push off and hold, now, pullyour hips through.
And I kept my hand on her backand she did a perfect hip hinge
and I said how was that?
She says oh, that was fine.
I said good, now let's sit downon the toilet, reversing that
pattern.
I didn't tell her now she simplyI didn't coach, she just ran
(43:57):
her hands down her thighs andplaced her behind on the stool
and I said good, now stand up.
Remember, her knees weretogether and she couldn't do it.
And I said humor me, spreadyour knees apart and pull your
feet back underneath you.
Good, now suck up some air, bea peacock, lean forward through
(44:18):
the hips and pull your hipsthrough.
And she did the most, mostcompetent squat and I never said
another word.
And I looked out at the audienceand all of a sudden, their
attitudes went from arroganceand something that was beneath
them to holy hell.
I just saw competence change.
(44:39):
And I didn't say anything andshe did it again.
And she did it three times upand down off the chair.
And then she looked at me andshe had a big smile on our face
and I said what's up with you?
And she said by the way, partof the story I'd forgotten to
tell you is, remember shecouldn't feed her cat but the
(45:02):
therapist had said you mustleave your home.
You now have to go into apatient care facility.
That is a heavy psychologicalissue.
And she looked at me and shesaid I don't have to leave my
home, do I?
And I said no, you don't.
Now, that's when the cliniciansthere was a few tears in their
eyes and all I did was teach herthe principles of weightlifting
(45:27):
101.
No one had ever gone back toteach her what every lifter,
competent lifter knows, and itwas just movement competency.
I didn't strength train her, itwas 100% movement competency and
showing her how, and thatchanged her life.
(45:48):
So I think that's the storythat you were thinking of and
the importance of movementcompetency, which is so rare, it
seems, these days, and I have afeeling it might be getting
rarer, although there are anumber of clinicians who are
(46:08):
dedicating themselves to reallygetting their chops up in.
You know pushing, pulling,squatting, lifting, lowering,
carrying, all of thesubcategories.
And then you know if we'regoing to add athleticism, oh,
footwork, I should have added inthere, and then it would be
throwing, climbing.
(46:29):
You know some of the animalmovement things.
Oh, it's beautiful to watch andunderstand how to coach some of
that.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Yeah, and just to dovetail off the animal, steve.
Sorry to interrupt, but youknow I used to dismissvetail off
the animal.
May I just say, steve, sorry tointerrupt.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
That's okay, but you know I used to dismiss Tai Chi
when I was younger.
I thought, oh, give me a break.
Yeah, I have now learned, forthe right person, the footwork
and the flow of Tai Chi and howto control the center of mass
and whatnot.
It's lovely stuff.
The center of mass and whatnot.
(47:07):
It's lovely stuff, but stupid.
Me years ago didn't appreciateit because I was too young and
it was beneath me.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that type of professional
bias and arrogance is not,certainly not unique to the
medical community.
Right, there might be moreblatant examples of that, but I,
you know, I, I remember, andthis is, I guess, a somewhat
similar story, but early in thedays of when CrossFit first
(47:32):
became popular, I rememberwatching a video of Greg
Glassman, the founder and he was.
He was in a seminar and he wastalking to people and he was
talking about a lady that he hadhe was working with, who was
elderly, and he was making thepoint that, um, the, the
physical needs of a grandmothercompared to a young athlete
(47:54):
differ, not in kind, but inextremity, right, meaning, we
all need to be able to have amovement competence in certain
positions, need to be able tohave a movement competence in
certain positions squatting, hiphinging, reaching overhead,
stuff, that kind of thing and hetold the story about how he
wanted.
He sent, I think sent a letterto her medical doctor could have
(48:16):
been an orthopedist saying hey,you know, mary Jones, I want
her to do some squats.
And the answer came back, asyou know heck, no right, she's
too old, she can't squat.
And so he went back and saidwell, how about chair sit to
stands?
And the orthopedist was oh,that's okay.
(48:37):
Which is you?
And I know it's the samemovement, it just has a base of
support and it betrays the blindspots that we all have.
I mean, I have blind spotsbecause I'm trained a certain
way, I have a certain body ofknowledge, I'm trained to think
a certain way and I don't knoweverything and I don't know what
(48:57):
I don't know.
And this is my eternal quest asa clinician to become a better
clinician year after year is tostart becoming aware of the
things that I don't know andthen evaluate like should I know
this?
Because if you find somethingthat you should know, that you
don't, and you realize you don'tknow it and you should, and you
(49:18):
don't fill that hole, then areyou really truly the best
practitioner that you can be?
Speaker 2 (49:24):
hold, then are you really truly the best
practitioner that you can be.
I think what you're talkingabout is what I would call the
path to mastery, and it'ssomething that you never fully
(49:45):
achieve, but it guides your path, and it's exactly what you said
Keep developing your toolboxfor interventions.
Keep developing your ability toassess and understand the
impediments in that person'slife and why they are not being
successful.
It never ends.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
Yes, I think there's a certain personality and
mindset that, like I hate and Ilove the fact that I don't know
everything.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Well, it keeps you on your toes and it allows you to
look forward to learningsomething new tomorrow.
But you know, look at thechallenges that are there now
that we did not have.
Let's even go back 100 yearsago and, you know, consider a
cooper, a person who madebarrels.
(50:42):
They spent their whole lifelearning how to make a good
barrel.
They they could become mastersat it.
Think of uh electricians.
Uh, when, when I started at theuniversity, uh digital
instrumentation really didn'texist, we used uh tape recorders
to record all our analogsignals of emg and uh, you know
(51:07):
the, the electrocardiogram andall the biophysical signals that
we would measure from people.
And then we got a digitizer andthen those signals could be
digitized and put in thecomputer.
And then we had to writesoftware code now to do the
analysis that the old analog,you know, the integrators and
(51:30):
differentiators and diodes andwhatnot that we used to wire.
And then this whole world justexploded on the dexterity that
we would have in those signals.
However, it took a realcommitment for us to learn all
this new technology.
So that was my challenge as ayoung scientist.
(51:54):
But now the internet has justpropelled this, and my point in
this story is.
It's very difficult for someoneto become a master.
You will be a master insomething now if it's computer
related for probably six monthsand then it's replaced by
another technology.
(52:15):
So the challenge to become amaster is even more difficult.
And then, when you look at youknow my life.
I have to go and find a 12 yearold to show me how to do
something that's new digitally.
They are the expert and theywill be an expert for a few
(52:39):
months and if they don't keep up, the new 14-year-old will have
to ask the 12-year-old.
So the challenge to becoming amaster now, however, I will say
that this body hasn't changedfor thousands of years and the
mastery of movement,understanding and competency etc
.
That isn't going to change.
(53:01):
So I hope more people areworking on that path to mastery
of understanding that whole.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
In that last monologue thereyou mentioned electricians.
I know that when you were youngI believe in high school, I
think you told me this storybefore but apparently your
school's guidance counselor toldyour dad to tell you to go into
(53:36):
a trade because you weren't toobright, you weren't
academically gifted.
What was going on in life atthat point?
I mean, clearly, you'rebrilliant man, you're so
academically accomplished andjust listening to you, you know
your insightful, incisive andyou know books and articles and
(53:57):
peer-reviewed journals and on,and on, and on and on.
What was going on in your lifethat they couldn't see that back
then.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
That's a hard question.
I don't think he said.
He spoke to my father and hesaid, yeah, mcgill is not
academic material.
Go to trade school.
And I did.
I enrolled in plumbing school atGeorge Brown in Toronto and I
would have been very happy,steve, being a plumber, I still
(54:32):
enjoy that physicality andability to build things.
Now, however, I was a goofball.
I was something that no onecould figure out, and even you
know my old college roommatesand whatnot.
They would say, wow, you're therowdiest, quiet guy we've ever
(54:55):
met and they could never pin medown.
Am I absolutely stupid?
Or am I a wild man?
Or am I a quiet, studious type?
Because you know, I'd readsomething or I'd study something
and then I'd go absolutelyberserk on something else.
It was just my personality, Iguess I couldn't sit in school.
(55:20):
It was torture for me to sit.
And you know, I think in threeor four of my textbooks I have a
dedication and the first personthat I mention is Mr Colucci.
(55:40):
Mr Colucci was a high schoolteacher of mine.
He came, he was a fullback forMcMaster Marauders and a real
bodybuilder and he got so muchrespect from guys like me and we
would train with him in themorning.
He was our football coach, hewas my track and field coach, so
(56:00):
the amount of time that hespent with me was way more than
he actually should have.
And, being a new phys edteacher, he also had to teach
ancient Greek and Roman history.
And you know, I paid attentionin that class only because it
was Mr Colucci and I would watchhis beautiful physicality move
(56:24):
and his stories, because of whohe was and the example that he
led and the personal time thathe spent with all of us who were
interested in training.
But all of the other subjects,steve, that I hate to say this.
I remember learning mathematicsand well, I didn't learn.
(56:47):
And the teacher telling us well, let's introduce calculus as X
tends to zero, la-di-da-di-da.
And it was just gobbledygook.
And it wasn't until I took mysecond or third calculus course
at university where I thoughtnow I understand calculus Really
.
All it is is something varieswith respect to something else.
(57:08):
So the slope of the curve isthe differential and the area
under the curve is thedifferential and the area under
the curve is the integral, thesum total.
You got to be kidding me.
Is that what calculus is?
Why didn't they tell me when Iwas a high school student that
when water flows through a pipeand you neck down the diameter
of the pipe, the pressure goesup and the flow rate goes up.
Easy as pie.
I could understand that, but Inever got it, as X tends to zero
(57:32):
, so I have to blame the system.
And my brain didn't understand,as X tends to zero.
So it was just I tuned out andI would study things on my own
and I was going to tell a storyabout Mr Colucci now and I can't
(57:58):
remember.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
You were talking about his physicality, yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:01):
Anyway, that man had such an influence on me and it
was him actually.
So here I was, leaving highschool to go and be trained as a
plumber and he called up mymother.
He didn't need to do that andhe said you know, I'd like him
to come back to high school andplay football.
(58:23):
And okay, I did, and a coupleof university football coaches
came around, they wrote lettersto me and one or two came to see
my mother actually, and that'swhy I went to university.
And then I was a goofball again.
(58:45):
First year I got 60% orsomething.
It was terrible.
And second year I stoppedplaying football.
And suddenly I took a couple ofphysics courses and a math
course and I had to work like adog because I didn't finish with
(59:06):
upper high school mathematics.
And all of a sudden the worldchanged.
I thought you got to be kiddingme.
You mean, calculus is waterflow in a pipe.
Why didn't they start with this?
And then all of a sudden itcame together.
Mathematics only described thephysical world.
(59:28):
I never got chemistry, by theway, it still confuses me.
There's too much memory work inthat.
But suddenly biology, physics,mathematics, history, it just
started to flow and cometogether.
And then, I think by the end ofthird year, I won the gold
(59:49):
medal for the top male student.
This is at University ofToronto.
Steve, I wasn't even trying.
I didn't even know that therewas such a thing that existed.
Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
I wasn't asking for marks, I had no idea where my
grades placed relative to mypeers.
This is the beautiful I'm sorryto interrupt, but it's the
beautiful thing when passion andintellect collide.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Well, yeah, and then I got lost one time and I found
myself in the library looking atdifferent books and there was a
book on the table Biomechanics.
I picked it up and startedlooking at it.
Wow, anatomical structure, alittle bit of engineering, a
little bit of mathematics, alittle bit of engineering, a
little bit of mathematics, alittle bit of how it all worked.
(01:00:34):
And then, uh, you know, I Iwent to biomechanics class and I
remember the professor sayingwell, when you turn a
screwdriver, that's a torque anda force couple.
And you got a force runningthis way and one running that
way.
I I thought God darn, that's aterrible explanation of what a
torque is.
It's a rotational force, that'sall it is, and you know.
(01:00:59):
And then, all of a sudden, yeah, the levers in the body and the
co-contraction and how thatloaded joints and what is
efficient and what isnon-efficient.
And you know, I went to theUniversity of Ottawa, I applied
for a master's degree inastrophysics and in biomechanics
.
I was accepted in astrophysics,which is planetary motion and
(01:01:22):
all that sort of thing.
I'd read, just on my own, someof the writings of Einstein and
I thought, oh, okay, I can startto understand this relativity a
bit.
Well, really, really did.
I can talk about it, howeverand also biomechanics.
But I chose biomechanics because, at this time, I was into road
(01:01:44):
cycling and the French Gatineau,north of Quebec, had wonderful
cycling, so I went there to ridemy bike.
Believe it or not, but I reallygot into biomechanics.
And then, because of theprofessor who was my supervisor,
played on the universityprofessor's hockey team and the
(01:02:06):
league up there was reallycompetitive hockey, but they
recruited a few graduatestudents, so I was on this team
and there was a player fromUniversity of Waterloo, bob
Norman, and I sat beside him inthe dressing room after the game
and he said, oh, have youthought of doing a PhD?
And I said, well, yeah,actually, I applied for a PhD at
(01:02:27):
University of Waterloo insystems engineering, for a PhD
at University of Waterloo insystems engineering.
And he said, oh well, I'm juststarting a spine lab at
University of Waterloo.
Come and visit.
And I stayed at his house forthree days what a lovely man and
what a lovely gesture.
And I switched and I became hisfirst PhD student to graduate,
(01:02:52):
actually, and then it juststarted from there.
But isn't it interesting thatin every single case, it was
sport, when you think about it,that took me to the next level,
and it was pure serendipity anddumb luck every step of the way.
Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Yeah, I was going to say it's either serendipity or
divine providence and you know,uh, take your pick.
Dumb luck and attitude.
Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
Dumb luck and attitude.
There you go.
And I said, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'minto this stuff now.
I uh, yeah, and then I spent 32years, 10 to 12 hours a day,
every single day, working onback stuff.
Thank you.
Hey everyone, welcome to the Funkbed Nation podcast.
I'm your host, dr Steve Noser.
The views and opinions ofguests on this podcast are their
own and may differ from my own,but as always, I try to be
respectful of other people'sopinions, even when we might
disagree.
My guest today is Dr StuartMcGill.
Dr McGill is a professoremeritus at the University of
(00:27):
Waterloo in Ontario, canada, anda world-renowned lecturer and
expert in spine function, injuryprevention and rehabilitation.
Dr McGill has written more than200 scientific publications on
the topics of lumbar function,low back injury mechanisms and
the investigation of tissueloading during rehabilitation
(00:48):
programs.
He's received several awardsfor his work, including the
Volvo Bioengineering Award forlow back pain research from
Sweden, and is a recipient ofthe Order of Canada, the second
highest merit award in thenation.
Dr McGill has been an invitedlecturer at many universities,
has delivered more than 200addresses and 70 keynotes to
(01:11):
societies around the world.
He has written four books andcontributed 32 chapters to
others.
He's sat on the editorialboards of many journals in the
physical medicine and rehabspace and recently has appeared
as a guest on other podcastswith Andrew Huberman, peter
Attia and Mark Bell.
As a consultant, he hasprovided expertise on assessment
(01:33):
and reduction of the risk oflow back injury to government
agencies, corporations,professional athletes and sports
teams of all varieties.
Most recently, he accompaniedTeam Canada to the Paris
Olympics.
When Dr McGill agreed to join mefor a conversation, I was
determined to not simplyrecreate other interviews he had
done by asking him about thecauses of low back pain.
(01:55):
Rather, we delved into hiscareer, his personal and
professional philosophies onhealth and fitness, and he
shared several inspiring storiesabout both professional
athletes and regular people thathe has worked with and how he
derives deep satisfaction fromhelping people change their
lives.
And yes, I felt compelled toask him about his iconic
(02:18):
mustache.
Let's get to the interview.
So you guys up in NorthernOntario, you've been hit with
two major snowstorms and I wasjust kind of wondering because,
I mean, you're a little bitolder than I am.
I think you're 67.
Yeah, yeah, so you know.
(02:39):
I was just wondering.
There's a lot of 67 year oldsthat wouldn't climb up on top of
the roof and shovel off a meteror so of snow.
What is it that you do to keepyourself going, that you feel
confident, that you can meet therigors and the demands of
living in the great white north?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I think it's just a view of life.
I mean, I've trained since Iwas 15.
In the early days it was to bea better athlete and train for
sport and probably look a littlebit better, look a little bit
(03:30):
better.
But these days it's to stillmaintain capability and we all
have a little bit of miles onour bodies now.
And it's even more importantNow.
I don't know if you want to getpersonal about this, but you
said what do I do?
In the old days I wouldstrength train almost
exclusively, and once in a whileI'd go for a run or whatever
and think about cardiovascularthings.
(03:51):
But now these days, yes, Istill strength train, but only a
couple of days a week.
I do much more mobility worknow to look after a few of the
specific injuries, shall we say,and more cardiovascular as well
(04:14):
.
In the winter, if it's not ablizzard like it is today, I'll
go for a ski or do some of therecreational things if I'm not
digging out, or digging outneighbors, which is what the
rest of my day is going to be,and the other little wisdoms
that I've picked up and I don'tknow if you would say the same
(04:37):
thing I've learned that if Ihave to work hard, don't do the
same thing two days in a row,and that keeps me training and
adapting positively rather thanaccumulating more pain and
stress.
Shall we say so little thingslike that?
(04:58):
I certainly drink less.
I eat better as a consequence,I think I'm sleeping better as
well, but maybe it's just notbeing at the university and
dealing with the challengesthere every day that keep you up
at night.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, the psycho-emotional.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
You say the same thing about as you gain a
personal wisdom, you learn yourbody and training and
physicality.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
It's not negotiable I totally agree, and especially
like in this age where so manyof the conversations that are
happening um are focusing on notjust longevity.
But you know, my point is thatit's great to live very long
time, but you want to be be, youwant to be capable, right, and
(05:47):
you can use the word fitness.
You know that that word in yourtraining philosophy was that
something you feel like you wereforced into as you got older,
(06:10):
or was that more of a consciouschoice of my priorities has
shifted.
My understanding has shifted.
Or maybe you've just lost thezeal to lift hard, lift strong
and be super strong.
And you know, if you shareyours, then I'll share mine when
you're done.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Well, I would say all of the above.
As I was approaching 60, youknow, I'd had a fairly demanding
role at the university.
I ran the whole well, two spinelabs in the research clinic and
I was department chair forquite a number of years as well.
(06:49):
And I reached the point where Irealized I'm a glorified
computer operator.
When I started, my firstappointment was 1986.
Our lab didn't even have alaptop computer yet and it was
not a physical job, but it was ajob that was always moving.
(07:12):
And then, as computers becamemore involved in virtually
everything that we did, I foundI would walk to work, and that
was by choice.
I owned a home right on theedge of campus for the reason of
walking to work every day, butI would sit and I would become
(07:37):
achy and I thought this isn'twhat I signed on for.
So when I was 60, I retired,not to stop working but to stop
that lifestyle.
So that was a conscious choiceand at that time I thought all
right, now let's really ashealthy as I need to be.
(08:02):
So I stopped drinking less andeating better.
I didn't have departmentmeetings and university
functions to go to several timesa week, which I was going to
before and I developed this ideawhich I've called the biblical
(08:26):
training week.
And I use the word biblicalbecause every major religion has
a Sabbath which is a day ofrest and biologically,
psychologically, it is soimportant just to have one day
per week where all of thesystems adapt.
(08:47):
So you've stressed them and nowyou've ensured that positive
adaptation and it just works.
And two days a week I'llstrength train.
Two days a week I mobilitytrain.
Two days a week I'll traincardiovascular.
I mobility train.
Two days a week I'll traincardiovascular.
But I still work a ruralphysical life.
(09:11):
In the winter You've alreadymentioned clearing snow.
In the summer I'll spend a fewdays splitting firewood for the
following year as an example,meaning that that checks all the
boxes.
So I'm free that day to choose.
I may go for a swim or a bikeride or a ski or whatever.
(09:34):
And, as I've already mentioned,part of the other rules that go
along with that is don't do twothings, do the same thing two
days in a row.
So that formalizes thisbiblical training week.
And I wake up in the morningwith my day planner and I write
(09:54):
down what is on the docket interms of training and I write it
in my day planner so I ensurethat I get it in and I
capability to recover or repairwas whatever that level was.
It was both yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
And you know, just to go into my story, like I just
turned 60 this year, I justturned 60 this year and you know
, I think I mentioned to youlast year when you were talking,
that I, when I was 50, well, itwas 2020.
So I was 56.
I had both of my hips replacedwithin five weeks of each other
and you know, it turned out Ihad a bilateral cam deformity in
(11:00):
my femoral heads and so by theage of 56, I was essentially
bone on bone and had been thatway for quite a long time.
And so for me, you know,adopting a more well-rounded
approach to fitness andcertainly the exercise component
of that, it was kind of forcedupon me because, given if I was
(11:22):
just given my nose and I couldgo wherever I wanted, I tend
towards the speed and thestrength stuff.
You know I I played basketballand volleyball when I was in
high school, college, even aftercollege, um, I was a sprinter,
I was a jumper, and so put me ina gym and guess what I want to
do?
I want to do heavy, hard andfast.
Not that I was ever like asuper strong guy, maybe above
(11:51):
average, but I wouldn't enter apowerlifting or a strongman
competition by any means.
But strength feels normal to me, speed feels normal.
It's hard for me to slow down,for example, it's hard for me to
get on an elliptical machineand just cruise for 30, 40, 50
minutes, and part of it is mymind is just screaming at me,
like you know, you have to movefaster, you have to move faster.
(12:12):
But when I had to deal with theimpact of the hip and really it
was two resurfacing procedures,not traditional replacements
that time in my life itbasically took me 10 years to
come to grips with the fact thatthis was an inevitability,
because I kept trying to fixeverything any way I could think
of, from chiropractic tostretching, mobilization.
(12:35):
I did stem cells and PRP.
I did all kinds of things andevery six months I had to give
up something because my pain wastoo great, my mobility had gone
and by the time I opted to havethe surgery, I couldn't stand
for more than two minutes at atime.
And this was 56 years old andfour years ago.
(12:56):
And now I'm to the point where,like, quite literally, those
surgeries changed my life,changed my life and
unfortunately, two years later Ihad major shoulder
reconstructive surgery forrotator cuff tears, bicep tendon
tears, cartilage tears that I'massuming came from many years
of being an outside hitter, apower hitter, playing volleyball
(13:17):
at a national level, and so Iwas kind of forced into it.
But the more I learned as afunctional medicine practitioner
and obviously tried to applythe things that I teach to other
people in my life, the more asI get older I see, logically I
see the need to have this morewell-rounded approach, and so
I'm kind of interested in yourthought process and how you
(13:41):
settled in on of all thedifferent things that you could
have chosen.
How did you settle in on themixture of things that you're
doing?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
That's an interesting question and I would have to
answer it.
It was a combination of mypersonality and my academic
training, so obviously I waswell aware of the role of
movement in health.
(14:16):
Every single system in yourbody requires movement for
optimal health and function.
Right, not too much and not toolittle.
So this we know.
But it's also my personality to, if I know that, I try and put
(14:37):
it into action.
There are people who know itand don't put it into action.
And there are people who don'tknow it and put it into action
and are probably non-optimal in,uh, the stress that they put on
their body Right, and, uh, theyend up with, uh, uh,
non-optimal, uh health, shall wesay.
(14:59):
So, um, yeah, it's, it's, uh.
That's my answer science pluspersonality.
And I'm curious because here weare now, we both have Celtic
genes.
Yeah, I know the hip structure.
I know the cam deformity.
(15:21):
You know I'm hip replaced aswell.
Yeah, I know the cam deformity.
You know I'm hip replaced aswell, and I strength trained
probably too heavy and too deepfor those hips that I was given,
and look where we both ended up.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, and that teaches you a wisdom too?
Yeah, it certainly does.
And you know, I think this isone of one of probably many
complaints that I have aboutpeople going, say, to the
internet and fitness influencers.
Um, that, and I think that,well it's, it's part of a larger
(15:59):
problem, because when we thinkabout fitness, we have, we have
an idea of what that means.
And you know, somebody might gowell, fit are the ultra
marathoners because they can run50 miles at a time.
Or fit is an Ironman athlete,because not only do they run,
they swim and they bike as well.
And to somebody else, it's thewinner of the CrossFit Games.
(16:21):
You know the fittest man andthe fittest woman on earth.
The winner of the CrossFitGames.
You know the fittest man andthe fittest woman on earth.
But we have this tendency, whenwe start to set our own goals,
to look at what someone else iscapable of doing and then think
that we have to model ourtraining after that and we have
to be that.
I've certainly fallen into thatmany times in my past and I'm
(16:42):
trying for myself, especiallynow as I get older and I'm
dealing with some limitationsthat I didn't have to deal with
in my youth.
I'm trying to make sure that Ifocus on this idea that,
whatever level of fitness I wantto achieve, it should be a
highly personalized thing, andmaybe it should start with well,
(17:03):
what are my goals, what isreally important to me?
And so, again, as you wereputting together Stu's mix of
things that seemed to work forStu, did you have an active
thought process where you satdown and thought what am I
trying to achieve here?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
The answer is yes and it came partly from some of the
experimentation that we've doneover the years.
People might think this israther oblique, but I was
involved in my consulting withseveral professional sports
teams and professional sports,and the example I'm going to
(17:44):
give is the combine.
In other words, in the NFL, theplayers who are drafted or are
going into the draft go througha combine, which is a set of
tests in which they're scoredand they are ranked for the
(18:04):
draft.
Partly by Now, let's hope thatthe exercises chosen have some
content, validity in terms ofperforming well and having some
resilience, not getting injuredin the NFL.
Well, I also was involved inthe basketball combine and also
(18:28):
in the NHL, some of the teststhat they'd done there.
Now you mentioned the hallmarkof fitness in many people's
minds is a cardiovascularmeasure.
So a marathoner, a triathlete,and I think it was co-opted the
definition of fitness by thephysiologists to mean a high VO2
(18:54):
max.
Well, isn't that interesting?
In the NHL many years ago, oneof the tests was how far can a
player run in 10 minutes?
So a surrogate ofcardiovascular fitness.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Kind of like a Cooper mile test or something like
that Exactly Now let's go backand look at the demands of
playing in the NHL.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
It is a 45-second anaerobic blast.
You get off the ice, you restfor two or three minutes, try
and recover your heart rate downand then you go again.
In other words, as it turnedout, the players who put the
most pucks in the net had a lowVO2 max but the longest
(19:48):
horizontal jump distance, inother words, explosive power.
But they also had the abilityto recover their heart rate very
quick.
And I remember one Russianplayer who I thought really
taught North Americans how totrain for hockey, and this was a
consult in the NHL and he had aback injury and his team medics
(20:14):
were telling him you shouldride a bike to maintain your
fitness for hockey while you'rerehabbing your back.
And he looked at me and he said, when they put bike on ice, I
ride bike, I don't ride bike.
And you know and it was such abeautiful demonstration and you
(20:37):
know, when we look at the NFLbattery of tests, the record
holders for the various testsvery rarely make the NFL as a
player.
So what is the validity?
And, as I came to learn, nbabasketball probably has the most
(20:59):
content valid set of tests.
Content valid set of tests andwe would measure rebound
performance, for example.
So do you think vertical jumphas a high correlation with a
rebound scores?
Well, in our studies it wasn'tthe most dominant test and you
(21:28):
would enjoy this as a as avolleyball player.
It was actually a wingspan tipto tip with the arms out to the
side, um, but also for reboundsit was, and the strength coaches
will go bananas on me now itwas weaker hands.
So now my hypothesis was it wasa bit more finesse with the
hands.
Yeah, that makes sense.
(22:00):
The demands of a sport and thenletting that inform how we're
going to measure a person.
Can they meet the demands?
And we're going to train whatthey cannot meet but is demanded
of them.
So that is a broader concept offitness.
(22:22):
And can we build a body that iscomprehensive in those
abilities to meet the demand of,in those examples, their sport?
But now we're talking aboutyour and my patients.
Are we working with them toreally understand their life and
(22:44):
what the demands are and that'sa full spectrum, full
physicality, full psychologicaland social demand and are we
helping them choose the mostoptimal approaches to gain that
capability?
Now that's life.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
And you know it's.
I think that's a wonderfulanalogy, and I'm certainly not
the one who coined the phrasethat sport or life is sport
right or the sport of life.
There are certainly physicaldemands that are placed on on us
these days and you know, modernsociety has changed a lot.
That are placed on us thesedays, and modern society has
changed a lot.
Sitting is the new smoking, asthey say, and so many of us are
(23:33):
kind of chained behind a desk.
Obviously, when I waspracticing as a chiropractor, I
was on my feet all day long.
But when I transitioned intofunctional medicine and then
went virtual, you know this iswhat I do and you know, now that
I have done podcasting and allthat kind of stuff, I spend the
vast majority of my time sitting, and in my office situation
(23:55):
it's, you know, living full timein an RV and traveling around
the continent it's hard toimplement like a standing desk
or a walking desk strategy, andso I have to try to compensate
by taking periodic breaks,getting outside, maybe swinging
a kettlebell, doing some airsquats, and then making sure
that I either get to the gym orget outdoors to do something
(24:19):
physical.
And you know, stu, the firsttwo years that my wife and I
traveled full-time in our RV.
I had an Olympic barbell andabout 300 pounds of bumper
plates and kettlebells and a25-pound medicine ball.
We traveled with that all thetime, and then I realized that
it was just too cumbersome tokeep slinging that stuff all
(24:41):
around from, you know, fromDallas or Texas to Newfoundland,
and so we decided that whereverwe were, we were just going to
join the gym, even if it was fortwo weeks.
And it just so turns out thatour lifestyle we're in several
places in Canada and the US forsometimes two, three months at a
time, and so we get a chance toget into a rhythm and, you know
(25:02):
, try to maintain our fitnessthat way.
But going back to this idea ofcombined testing should reflect
the rigors and demands of thesport.
If we look at life as sport,what are the demands Like if I
were to sit down, if you were tosit down with somebody who's
(25:22):
not an athlete per se, butthey're interested in not just
longevity but functionalcapacity, what I call aging
independence, right, being ableto get up and down off the
toilet when you're 90 years oldand not have to have someone
shower you and dress you.
What do you think are thefundamentals, like, what's your
personal philosophy?
(25:42):
And maybe yours is going tocome more from data than it is
just from your own musings, butI'd like to hear your musings
what do you think are thedemands of aging when it comes
to this idea that life is sportand we have to maintain, we have
to train for that?
Speaker 2 (26:02):
I'm wanting to make sure I interpret your question
correctly.
Sure, well, let me start andcorrect me if I'm going down the
wrong path here.
Living life robustly meanswe're going to cross the line
(26:24):
once in a while and we are goingto get a little injury, or it
might be pardon the language butit might be just a shit happens
kind of a situation.
You flip on ice, you crack yourpelvis and you know that can be
really devastating for somepeople or you fall down the
stairs or whatever it is.
As we accumulate these injuries, it takes a piece out of your
(26:49):
ability to do what you once didand found easy when you were 16.
So where I'm headed with this,for people like you and I, we
have to do a very thoroughassessment of that person's
history and measure where theyare struggling and where are the
(27:14):
impediments to them living thelife that they currently are
demanded and really want to live.
So I guess my answer really isthat assessment guides us every
single time on what fitnessmeans for that particular person
(27:36):
and how we're going to get themas capable as we possibly can
in the limitations of theirinjury history and their
surgical history.
Disease I hate the word disease,um, but shall we say,
non-compromised healthmechanisms?
Uh, yeah, anyway is is.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Am I headed in the right direction with that, yeah,
you are, it's, and I guessmaybe this falls into that
domain that you hate, which isgeneralizations.
But I would imagine that,individual circumstance aside,
there are certain fundamentalsthat most of us should be
(28:17):
maintaining and training ourcapacity in as we get older
capacity and as we get older,and you know, there would be a
certain need for baselinemobility, a certain need for
baseline strength, a certainneed for VO2 max.
You know you don't have to be,you don't have to have a VO2 max
of, you know, 75 to just livelife in general.
But flexibility, mobility, evenagility, you know you mentioned
(28:42):
falling down, breaking the hip,like, we know that one of the
big things that allows people toavoid tripping, falling and
breaking a hip is is a simplething like foot speed, right,
being able to adjust yourposition as, as your brain
senses, okay, I'm going down,can you adjust your position and
catch yourself.
So you need speed before youneed the strength to prevent the
(29:03):
fall.
And so, you know, in my world,in my mind, which is not always
a great place to be, you know,I'm always thinking about what
are the fundamentals, because,with the clients that I interact
with, I see a wide range ofpeople who are absolutely
willing to embrace physicalactivity and exercise as part of
(29:25):
their health journey, so tospeak, and others who they've
never really exercised beforeand they don't know where to
start and they're not even surethey want to do it.
And so how do we boil this ideadown to?
These are the fundamentals.
Now you can listen to peoplelike Peter Attia, for example,
who's last year or so has beentalking a lot about grip
(29:47):
strength and farmer's carriesand hang time, and Andy Galpin
talks about knee extension testsand the quality or the
correlation between quadricepsstrength and longevity and that
kind of stuff.
So I'm trying to get for myselfin talking to my clients.
I'm trying to develop a set ofbasic guidelines that, if you're
(30:09):
not going to go beyond, youhave to.
These are the minimum standardsyou must meet if you expect to
be healthy and well in thefuture.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Do you want me to riff on that a little bit?
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Absolutely Stop me from talking that a little bit.
Absolutely Okay, stop me fromtalking.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
There's one thing that I would add I thought that
was a good list thecardiovascular, the mobility
aspect, plus the strength, plus.
You also mentioned footworkthere, which is also very
important.
So the two things I would addto that and it's a broad
category category, but it'scalled movement competency.
(30:44):
Is the person aware of how tomove without creating real
stress concentrations at alocation in their body?
A stress concentration resultsfrom posture and movement.
So if they have well, my area,obviously in the low back and
(31:06):
every time they tie their shoethey get a little uncomfortable
trigger in their back and thatcan set them off for the rest of
the day in a very negative way,can they tie their shoe in a
way that doesn't replicate thattrigger?
Well, for most people, if theyput their foot up, don't sit in
the chair and tie your shoe, butput your foot up on the seat
(31:28):
pan of the chair.
So now you're in a lungeposition, but the key is to take
your hips down to the target,meaning close to the heel.
So if they have the physicalwherewithal let's say the left
foot is on the chair push theleft knee way past the toes and
(31:48):
bend the stance leg right knee.
Now the hips are right down atthe heel, if their hips will
allow this, and now they can tietheir shoe without stressing
their back and settingthemselves up negatively for the
rest of the day.
So there would be an example.
We call them movement hacks, orspine hygiene, shall we say,
(32:09):
but it's a way to reduce stressconcentrations that now gives
them a pain-free capacity forthe rest of the day.
So movement competency would beone.
And the other thing that came tomy mind listening to you was
real risk versus perceived risk.
What is the real risk of, steve, when you were playing
(32:34):
volleyball and lifting heavy andthat kind of thing?
Now I'm just guessing and itmight have been crossing the
line with a heavy deadlift thatyour hormones just ran ahead,
that big Y chromosome, and youthought I'm just going to squat
this no matter what, rather thanabandoning the lift because all
(32:55):
your buddies are there watching.
But I'll tell you now, thebiggest risk I have is a slip
and fall on the ice, and Ialmost had two of them this
morning walking the dog.
There's ice under, particularlywhere they've just plowed and
(33:19):
you stumble and you're older, doyou have?
And to get to Andy Galpin'spoint, do you have the hip
flexion power to get the leg outin front of you, because to
arrest a fall the base ofsupport has to run ahead of the
(33:39):
center of mass.
Physically it's the only way toarrest a fall, but that
requires hip power.
So, okay, say the person islosing the footwork ability
because it's hip power, allright.
Well, how can we do that?
Do they have shoulderwherewithal?
Could we do a Roman chair hipflexion power training?
Or is it just simply a matterof starting standing on one leg
and doing knee circles with theother leg?
(34:00):
Maybe it's ballroom dance class, maybe it's a little Tai Chi?
I mean, you know, it's endless,but the optimum still remains
the optimum, and a really goodclinician will have the ability
to measure what that personneeds, understand their real
(34:23):
risk and mitigate it with thevery best training program for
them.
So again, I get right back toyou know, I wonder why people
come and see me, because on theinternet or anywhere else
there's nowhere where McGill isout there advertising to see
patients.
And yet I'll wake up in themorning and there may be a
(34:46):
couple hundred emails there fromaround the world requesting
appointments.
Every single one of them hasfailed.
No one has addressed their realimpediments and they're still
in pain.
And when you see their dossiers, when they come they've seen a
dozen different people.
(35:07):
So those are the people thatcome and maybe I'm biased, but I
have to get to the level ofindividuality to sort them out.
If they were easy and theycould be fixed by generic
approaches, they would have beenGreat.
I'm so happy.
But you see, it's my bias.
(35:29):
It's the people who come andsee me.
They are the challenged ones.
Nor do I want to seenon-challenging people.
I should never see them.
There's plenty of physios andall kinds of health professions
that can deal with them.
But anyway, there's probably anatural selection bias in why I
(35:50):
have some of the opinions that Ido.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
And that's analogous to my experience as well, and it
goes back to what I was sayingabout the blessing and the curse
of the internet and thesefitness influencers and just the
immediate access to so muchinformation, which by its very
nature has to be general.
It has to be and, for better orfor worse, there are a lot of
(36:15):
people that have nominalproblems that can find general
information applied tothemselves and it ends up in a
good result.
But you know, like you, thekind of practice that I have on
the functional medicine side.
It's the people who've seen six, seven, eight other doctors for
whether it's a gut issue orhead injury or autoimmune
(36:36):
problems or blood sugar issuesor whatever the case is.
But you know, as as you'retalking, I I was reminded of a
story and I'm sure you'llremember this and I would love
you to tell it here.
It was a story of an older ladywho was at a crossroads in her
life that people were tellingher she has to go to an assisted
(36:57):
living home.
And, if I remember the story,the details, you had her up on
stage in, say, an auditorium andthere was a bunch of physicians
present and you examined herand made some very simple
recommendations that changed herlife.
I think this is a beautifulillustration of the
individualization, but alsocapturing this idea of what's
(37:21):
important and what we needdepends on what's important to
us, what our goals are and ourstatus and station in life.
Do you remember the story I'mtalking about?
I don't want to give too manydetails because you're doing a
way better job than I am.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Well, I do.
Actually.
It's a very emotional story,but I think I told that on Peter
Atiyah's podcast.
Okay yeah, do you want a quick?
Speaker 1 (37:43):
summary of it Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
I think it's a beautiful story.
Yeah, I was at a medicalfacility in Europe and
occasionally I will get askedwould you come and see a few
patients in front of our medicalstaff because they want to see
how you assess and how you goabout things?
And we'll bring on three peopleand you get 20 minutes with
(38:08):
each one.
Well, that's a terrible timeconstraint for me because I very
rarely can.
Well, of course, I can watch aperson walk up and I've got a
pretty good hypothesis Right.
But to be thorough, it usuallytakes longer than 20 minutes.
But this was a 20-minuteexperience I'd just seen.
I think it was a strengthathlete, like a rugby player or
(38:30):
something.
And then they brought up thenext person and it was an older
I was going to say an elderlyperson who was probably two or
three years older than me.
But anyway, she came onto thestage walking with great
trepidation, but you could seethe emotions.
(38:50):
She was stooped, she wasdefeated, her head was down.
Just if you look at a clinicalpsychology textbook for
depression, that is the demeanorthat she was showing.
So I didn't need a survey or aquestionnaire to understand.
Was this woman depressed?
She gave it away in hermovement.
(39:11):
You know, the great Americandance teacher, martha Graham,
used to say movement is thewindow into the soul and if you
can't see that, brother, you'rein the wrong profession.
Anyway, so we could see all ofthis as she came up and I said
well, tell me your story, steve.
(39:33):
She never mentioned her backpain and she said, well, and to
cut to the chase, she said whenI sit on the toilet and try and
get up, my therapist has told methat I'm going to fall and no
one will find me for the nextday.
And who's going to feed the cat?
You know?
(39:53):
And she started to cry who'sgoing to feed the cat?
And you know, just showing howit wasn't about her, it was
about the love for her cat andthis was the biggest thing in
her life.
Okay, I better pay attentionanyway.
So I said could you, uh,someone bring out a stool and
(40:15):
that's our simulated toilet.
Would you sit on the toilet?
Now I'm being dismissed and Ican just feel it, with all the
surgeons and highfalutin medicalpeople in the audience.
This is a bit I'm sorry to saythis, but it's a bit beneath
them.
Show me your pain.
And so I watched her sit on thestool, just plopping, total
(40:40):
collapse, no idea of how toeccentrically control her body
to avoid painful stress.
And then I said okay, could youstand up off the toilet?
Now?
Imagine her feet are in frontof her, her knees are together
and she's trying to use momentumto get off and then, as she
(41:01):
starts to get up, her legscollapse, just as Andy would say
.
She didn't have thigh strength,didn't know how to use her hips
, etc.
So I helped her to make sureshe didn't fall and when she was
standing I said well, theydidn't know baseball in this
particular country.
(41:22):
But I said let's try this styleof squat and I know some of your
people won't be able to seethis.
They're listening.
But I'm going to make my handsbig.
So there's a big V between mythumb and my hands.
I'm going to stand up, put thehands on the front of my thighs
and run my hands down my kneesso that my kneecap is now
(41:46):
between my thumb and my hands.
I'm going to wrap my handsaround my knees and then at that
point I had to correct hercenter of mass over her base of
support and some of thepositions of her body.
So how I did it was I got herknees over the balls of her feet
, meaning that her hips had tobe way behind her heels, which
(42:09):
forced her upper body to leanforward a fair amount, and she
was humped up like a camel, fullspine flexion.
And I showed her lift your tail, or, pardon me, ma'am, but
stick your bum out.
She got a little giggle out ofthat and you know it's easier if
, because I have white hair, Ican get away with some of these
(42:32):
things, and again, it's acoaching style that you develop.
If I did that, if I was 25years old with black hair, I
probably wouldn't have gottenaway with it.
So you know, again, the wholemilieu is something that you
have to be aware of.
So a little bit of teasing andcajoling works in certain
(42:53):
situations.
So, lift your tail, stick yourbum out, in other words, gain a
neutral lordosis for people likeyou and I.
I said do you have discomfortor pain?
She says no.
I said, good, stand up.
And right away she went intospine flexion and lifted herself
with her back and I said, okay,well, let's repeat Slide your
(43:14):
hands down your thighs, knees,over the balls of your feet this
time.
Hollow your low back, and Iwant you to keep that, but we're
going to enforce it just alittle bit, and it was just
tricking her.
I said you're a leaning tower,push your toes down and lean
forward.
Now show me your beautifultricep muscles.
And I just tapped the back ofher, her arm, to show her where
(43:35):
those were.
Now.
Push off and hold, now, pullyour hips through.
And I kept my hand on her backand she did a perfect hip hinge
and I said how was that?
She says oh, that was fine.
I said good, now let's sit downon the toilet, reversing that
pattern.
I didn't tell her now she simplyI didn't coach, she just ran
(43:57):
her hands down her thighs andplaced her behind on the stool
and I said good, now stand up.
Remember, her knees weretogether and she couldn't do it.
And I said humor me, spreadyour knees apart and pull your
feet back underneath you.
Good, now suck up some air, bea peacock, lean forward through
(44:18):
the hips and pull your hipsthrough.
And she did the most, mostcompetent squat and I never said
another word.
And I looked out at the audienceand all of a sudden, their
attitudes went from arroganceand something that was beneath
them to holy hell.
I just saw competence change.
(44:39):
And I didn't say anything andshe did it again.
And she did it three times upand down off the chair.
And then she looked at me andshe had a big smile on our face
and I said what's up with you?
And she said by the way, partof the story I'd forgotten to
tell you is, remember shecouldn't feed her cat but the
(45:02):
therapist had said you mustleave your home.
You now have to go into apatient care facility.
That is a heavy psychologicalissue.
And she looked at me and shesaid I don't have to leave my
home, do I?
And I said no, you don't.
Now, that's when the cliniciansthere was a few tears in their
eyes and all I did was teach herthe principles of weightlifting
(45:27):
101.
No one had ever gone back toteach her what every lifter,
competent lifter knows, and itwas just movement competency.
I didn't strength train her, itwas 100% movement competency and
showing her how, and thatchanged her life.
(45:48):
So I think that's the storythat you were thinking of and
the importance of movementcompetency, which is so rare, it
seems, these days, and I have afeeling it might be getting
rarer, although there are anumber of clinicians who are
(46:08):
dedicating themselves to reallygetting their chops up in.
You know pushing, pulling,squatting, lifting, lowering,
carrying, all of thesubcategories.
And then you know if we'regoing to add athleticism, oh,
footwork, I should have added inthere, and then it would be
throwing, climbing.
(46:29):
You know some of the animalmovement things.
Oh, it's beautiful to watch andunderstand how to coach some of
that.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Yeah, and just to dovetail off the animal, steve.
Sorry to interrupt, but youknow I used to dismissvetail off
the animal.
May I just say, steve, sorry tointerrupt.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
That's okay, but you know I used to dismiss Tai Chi
when I was younger.
I thought, oh, give me a break.
Yeah, I have now learned, forthe right person, the footwork
and the flow of Tai Chi and howto control the center of mass
and whatnot.
It's lovely stuff.
The center of mass and whatnot.
(47:07):
It's lovely stuff, but stupid.
Me years ago didn't appreciateit because I was too young and
it was beneath me.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that type of professional
bias and arrogance is not,certainly not unique to the
medical community.
Right, there might be moreblatant examples of that, but I,
you know, I, I remember, andthis is, I guess, a somewhat
similar story, but early in thedays of when CrossFit first
(47:32):
became popular, I rememberwatching a video of Greg
Glassman, the founder and he was.
He was in a seminar and he wastalking to people and he was
talking about a lady that he hadhe was working with, who was
elderly, and he was making thepoint that, um, the, the
physical needs of a grandmothercompared to a young athlete
(47:54):
differ, not in kind, but inextremity, right, meaning, we
all need to be able to have amovement competence in certain
positions, need to be able tohave a movement competence in
certain positions squatting, hiphinging, reaching overhead,
stuff, that kind of thing and hetold the story about how he
wanted.
He sent, I think sent a letterto her medical doctor could have
(48:16):
been an orthopedist saying hey,you know, mary Jones, I want
her to do some squats.
And the answer came back, asyou know heck, no right, she's
too old, she can't squat.
And so he went back and saidwell, how about chair sit to
stands?
And the orthopedist was oh,that's okay.
(48:37):
Which is you?
And I know it's the samemovement, it just has a base of
support and it betrays the blindspots that we all have.
I mean, I have blind spotsbecause I'm trained a certain
way, I have a certain body ofknowledge, I'm trained to think
a certain way and I don't knoweverything and I don't know what
(48:57):
I don't know.
And this is my eternal quest asa clinician to become a better
clinician year after year is tostart becoming aware of the
things that I don't know andthen evaluate like should I know
this?
Because if you find somethingthat you should know, that you
don't, and you realize you don'tknow it and you should, and you
(49:18):
don't fill that hole, then areyou really truly the best
practitioner that you can be?
Speaker 2 (49:24):
hold, then are you really truly the best
practitioner that you can be.
I think what you're talkingabout is what I would call the
path to mastery, and it'ssomething that you never fully
(49:45):
achieve, but it guides your path, and it's exactly what you said
Keep developing your toolboxfor interventions.
Keep developing your ability toassess and understand the
impediments in that person'slife and why they are not being
successful.
It never ends.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
Yes, I think there's a certain personality and
mindset that, like I hate and Ilove the fact that I don't know
everything.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Well, it keeps you on your toes and it allows you to
look forward to learningsomething new tomorrow.
But you know, look at thechallenges that are there now
that we did not have.
Let's even go back 100 yearsago and, you know, consider a
cooper, a person who madebarrels.
(50:42):
They spent their whole lifelearning how to make a good
barrel.
They they could become mastersat it.
Think of uh electricians.
Uh, when, when I started at theuniversity, uh digital
instrumentation really didn'texist, we used uh tape recorders
to record all our analogsignals of emg and uh, you know
(51:07):
the, the electrocardiogram andall the biophysical signals that
we would measure from people.
And then we got a digitizer andthen those signals could be
digitized and put in thecomputer.
And then we had to writesoftware code now to do the
analysis that the old analog,you know, the integrators and
(51:30):
differentiators and diodes andwhatnot that we used to wire.
And then this whole world justexploded on the dexterity that
we would have in those signals.
However, it took a realcommitment for us to learn all
this new technology.
So that was my challenge as ayoung scientist.
(51:54):
But now the internet has justpropelled this, and my point in
this story is.
It's very difficult for someoneto become a master.
You will be a master insomething now if it's computer
related for probably six monthsand then it's replaced by
another technology.
(52:15):
So the challenge to become amaster is even more difficult.
And then, when you look at youknow my life.
I have to go and find a 12 yearold to show me how to do
something that's new digitally.
They are the expert and theywill be an expert for a few
(52:39):
months and if they don't keep up, the new 14-year-old will have
to ask the 12-year-old.
So the challenge to becoming amaster now, however, I will say
that this body hasn't changedfor thousands of years and the
mastery of movement,understanding and competency etc
.
That isn't going to change.
(53:01):
So I hope more people areworking on that path to mastery
of understanding that whole.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
In that last monologue thereyou mentioned electricians.
I know that when you were youngI believe in high school, I
think you told me this storybefore but apparently your
school's guidance counselor toldyour dad to tell you to go into
(53:36):
a trade because you weren't toobright, you weren't
academically gifted.
What was going on in life atthat point?
I mean, clearly, you'rebrilliant man, you're so
academically accomplished andjust listening to you, you know
your insightful, incisive andyou know books and articles and
(53:57):
peer-reviewed journals and on,and on, and on and on.
What was going on in your lifethat they couldn't see that back
then.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
That's a hard question.
I don't think he said.
He spoke to my father and hesaid, yeah, mcgill is not
academic material.
Go to trade school.
And I did.
I enrolled in plumbing school atGeorge Brown in Toronto and I
would have been very happy,steve, being a plumber, I still
(54:32):
enjoy that physicality andability to build things.
Now, however, I was a goofball.
I was something that no onecould figure out, and even you
know my old college roommatesand whatnot.
They would say, wow, you're therowdiest, quiet guy we've ever
(54:55):
met and they could never pin medown.
Am I absolutely stupid?
Or am I a wild man?
Or am I a quiet, studious type?
Because you know, I'd readsomething or I'd study something
and then I'd go absolutelyberserk on something else.
It was just my personality, Iguess I couldn't sit in school.
(55:20):
It was torture for me to sit.
And you know, I think in threeor four of my textbooks I have a
dedication and the first personthat I mention is Mr Colucci.
(55:40):
Mr Colucci was a high schoolteacher of mine.
He came, he was a fullback forMcMaster Marauders and a real
bodybuilder and he got so muchrespect from guys like me and we
would train with him in themorning.
He was our football coach, hewas my track and field coach, so
(56:00):
the amount of time that hespent with me was way more than
he actually should have.
And, being a new phys edteacher, he also had to teach
ancient Greek and Roman history.
And you know, I paid attentionin that class only because it
was Mr Colucci and I would watchhis beautiful physicality move
(56:24):
and his stories, because of whohe was and the example that he
led and the personal time thathe spent with all of us who were
interested in training.
But all of the other subjects,steve, that I hate to say this.
I remember learning mathematicsand well, I didn't learn.
(56:47):
And the teacher telling us well, let's introduce calculus as X
tends to zero, la-di-da-di-da.
And it was just gobbledygook.
And it wasn't until I took mysecond or third calculus course
at university where I thoughtnow I understand calculus Really
.
All it is is something varieswith respect to something else.
(57:08):
So the slope of the curve isthe differential and the area
under the curve is thedifferential and the area under
the curve is the integral, thesum total.
You got to be kidding me.
Is that what calculus is?
Why didn't they tell me when Iwas a high school student that
when water flows through a pipeand you neck down the diameter
of the pipe, the pressure goesup and the flow rate goes up.
Easy as pie.
I could understand that, but Inever got it, as X tends to zero
(57:32):
, so I have to blame the system.
And my brain didn't understand,as X tends to zero.
So it was just I tuned out andI would study things on my own
and I was going to tell a storyabout Mr Colucci now and I can't
(57:58):
remember.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
You were talking about his physicality, yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:01):
Anyway, that man had such an influence on me and it
was him actually.
So here I was, leaving highschool to go and be trained as a
plumber and he called up mymother.
He didn't need to do that andhe said you know, I'd like him
to come back to high school andplay football.
(58:23):
And okay, I did, and a coupleof university football coaches
came around, they wrote lettersto me and one or two came to see
my mother actually, and that'swhy I went to university.
And then I was a goofball again.
(58:45):
First year I got 60% orsomething.
It was terrible.
And second year I stoppedplaying football.
And suddenly I took a couple ofphysics courses and a math
course and I had to work like adog because I didn't finish with
(59:06):
upper high school mathematics.
And all of a sudden the worldchanged.
I thought you got to be kiddingme.
You mean, calculus is waterflow in a pipe.
Why didn't they start with this?
And then all of a sudden itcame together.
Mathematics only described thephysical world.
(59:28):
I never got chemistry, by theway, it still confuses me.
There's too much memory work inthat.
But suddenly biology, physics,mathematics, history, it just
started to flow and cometogether.
And then, I think by the end ofthird year, I won the gold
(59:49):
medal for the top male student.
This is at University ofToronto.
Steve, I wasn't even trying.
I didn't even know that therewas such a thing that existed.
Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
I wasn't asking for marks, I had no idea where my
grades placed relative to mypeers.
This is the beautiful I'm sorryto interrupt, but it's the
beautiful thing when passion andintellect collide.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Well, yeah, and then I got lost one time and I found
myself in the library looking atdifferent books and there was a
book on the table Biomechanics.
I picked it up and startedlooking at it.
Wow, anatomical structure, alittle bit of engineering, a
little bit of mathematics, alittle bit of engineering, a
little bit of mathematics, alittle bit of how it all worked.
(01:00:34):
And then, uh, you know, I Iwent to biomechanics class and I
remember the professor sayingwell, when you turn a
screwdriver, that's a torque anda force couple.
And you got a force runningthis way and one running that
way.
I I thought God darn, that's aterrible explanation of what a
torque is.
It's a rotational force, that'sall it is, and you know.
(01:00:59):
And then, all of a sudden, yeah, the levers in the body and the
co-contraction and how thatloaded joints and what is
efficient and what isnon-efficient.
And you know, I went to theUniversity of Ottawa, I applied
for a master's degree inastrophysics and in biomechanics
.
I was accepted in astrophysics,which is planetary motion and
(01:01:22):
all that sort of thing.
I'd read, just on my own, someof the writings of Einstein and
I thought, oh, okay, I can startto understand this relativity a
bit.
Well, really, really did.
I can talk about it, howeverand also biomechanics.
But I chose biomechanics because, at this time, I was into road
(01:01:44):
cycling and the French Gatineau,north of Quebec, had wonderful
cycling, so I went there to ridemy bike.
Believe it or not, but I reallygot into biomechanics.
And then, because of theprofessor who was my supervisor,
played on the universityprofessor's hockey team and the
(01:02:06):
league up there was reallycompetitive hockey, but they
recruited a few graduatestudents, so I was on this team
and there was a player fromUniversity of Waterloo, bob
Norman, and I sat beside him inthe dressing room after the game
and he said, oh, have youthought of doing a PhD?
And I said, well, yeah,actually, I applied for a PhD at
(01:02:27):
University of Waterloo insystems engineering, for a PhD
at University of Waterloo insystems engineering.
And he said, oh well, I'm juststarting a spine lab at
University of Waterloo.
Come and visit.
And I stayed at his house forthree days what a lovely man and
what a lovely gesture.
And I switched and I became hisfirst PhD student to graduate,
(01:02:52):
actually, and then it juststarted from there.
But isn't it interesting thatin every single case, it was
sport, when you think about it,that took me to the next level,
and it was pure serendipity anddumb luck every step of the way.
Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Yeah, I was going to say it's either serendipity or
divine providence and you know,uh, take your pick.
Dumb luck and attitude.
Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
Dumb luck and attitude.
There you go.
And I said, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'minto this stuff now.
I uh, yeah, and then I spent 32years, 10 to 12 hours a day,
every single day, working onback stuff.
Thank you.
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