February 25, 2024 • 73 mins
The world of queer tattoo artists is pretty small; made smaller by the internet.
From starting to follow her on IG, I have always felt a kinship with Caitlin Cordell, as her statements -- political and social, in instagram stories and captions always felt resonant to me. And her tattoo art is captivating.
The thing I didn't know about Caitlin is how deeply she cares about the young people. Having worked in social work for almost her entire adult life up until very recently, she transitioned to tattooing a lot more while still keeping a lot of her energy tied up in a local alternative school. Speaking of local, Caitlin and her (very gay) partner live in Twisp, WA, which is a small rural town.
Together we decided that she is clearly one of the village witches and aunties to the young ones, and a niece to the elders. I was struck by how community oriented this beautiful human is. Many of us are, but Caitlin takes it to another level.
Our conversation was flowing, fun, snappy, full of laughter and beautiful imagery we conjured together. It's an honor to get to imagine a better world with a kindred spirit.
Listen in and then check out Caitlin's fine line black and grey plant and animal tattoos, which are delicate and gorgeous.
Find Caitlin on instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/caitlincordell23/
You can connect with me, Micah Riot, as well as see my tattoo art on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/micahriot/
Micah's website is www.micahriot.com
The podcast is hosted on Buzzsprout but truly lives in the heart of Micah's website at:
https://www.micahriot.com/ink-medicine-podcast/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Micah Riot (00:00):
Hello darlings, micah Ride here this episode.
I present to you theconversation I had with Caitlin
Cordell, who is a magical,witchy tattoo artist who lives
in Twist, washington, smallcommunity on a river.
I know Caitlin through theinternet.
(00:20):
Caitlin tattoos in kind of afine line, black and gray style,
mostly plants and animals.
I knew that we would have anamazing conversation because
Caitlin often helps postsstories on social media that
really resonate with me and, ofcourse, the tattoos Caitlin
posts are absolutely gorgeous.
(00:41):
Hear us talk about things aboutbeing in tattoo community,
being older tattoo artistsworking with youth, appreciating
youth, being support for youthand intergenerational love,
intergenerational connection andalso relationships across
(01:03):
political lines, belief lines,value lines and rural life
versus urban life for queers.
It's really a beautifulconversation and Caitlin has the
most infectious laugh.
So here we go.
Hi, caitlin.
Caitlin Cordell (01:55):
Hi Micah.
Micah Riot (01:58):
Why don't we start by you just giving me some
identity markers that areimportant to you, that you would
like the audience to know aboutyou?
Caitlin Cordell (02:06):
Okay, so Caitlin Cordell I use she her
pronouns.
I don't identify as cisgender,just like gender non conforming
feels like the right one.
I'm white, I live in ruralEastern Washington, my group in
(02:30):
Seattle and come from, yeah,pacific Northwest educators and
teachers and definitely identifyas queer.
I have a partner.
(02:51):
We have two cats and an artistand a social worker both of
those things youth worker.
Micah Riot (03:02):
So yeah, I know that you transitioned.
Sorry to interrupt.
I know you transitioned fromsocial work to tattooing.
How long has it been since thattransition happened?
Caitlin Cordell (03:15):
I did that in September.
I turned 40 and I had beendoing youth work for close to 20
years, 25 years and, yeah, Ijust felt like this time in my
life was time to give space tothe artist that had not gotten a
(03:38):
lot of attention.
Micah Riot (03:38):
So, yeah, I feel like I've been seeing your
tattoos much longer than, likewhat, four months, so are you
doing that at the same time?
Caitlin Cordell (03:49):
Yeah, yeah, I was doing that pretty part time.
I started tattooing or handpoke, teaching myself hand poke
tattoo in 2018 and thentransitioned to mostly machine
tattooing in like 2022 withsupport from a mentor.
And then, but yeah, I was doingthat, working like two days a
(04:12):
week tattooing and four days aweek doing social work.
Micah Riot (04:16):
Yeah, and since you live rurally, how does that work
with?
Well, socially work agenciesand also tattooing, like are you
near a big town?
Like where do you do all kindsof work?
Caitlin Cordell (04:33):
Yeah, I'll try to.
I'll try to paint the pictureof where I am.
So I'm actually in.
So I'm in central, central,eastern Washington and I'm in a
valley called the Met HoweValley which is named after the
indigenous people that were herebefore white colonizers.
And some of them still do livein this valley, but many of them
(04:54):
have been displaced and nowbelong to the confederated
tribes of the ColvilleReservation, which is 12 tribes
and it is a valley of like three, four small towns and they kind
(05:14):
of become progressively moreaffluent as you get further
north, and it's a tourist centerin Okanagan County.
It's like truly one of the mostbeautiful places I've ever seen.
It's like land before time.
You know when like he comes outand there's the valley there,
(05:36):
like sometimes when I'm driving,I feel like I'm in the land
before time.
It's like green hills and thenthe river flows through it and
then there's white mountains,there's the cascades that kind
of hug us in here, and the townthat I'm in called Twisp, which
is a Met Howe word forpollinator, I think it's for
(05:58):
yellow jacket is like 3000, 4000people and I'm in the
unincorporated part, so.
But it's pretty affluent, it'sgot a lot of second homeowners
and they kind of help thiseconomy.
I mean, help is a reallyinteresting word but they feed
(06:21):
money into the economy, thetourist economy here, and
there's a lot of local workingpeople that are really supported
by other working people andpeople who care about this
community.
And there's a really fantasticnonprofit organization called
Room One.
That's where I was working formany years and we actually
(06:43):
focused my job, focusedprimarily on sexual health,
violence prevention, work in theschools, but also around
Okanagan County, and thenthere's just like a ton of other
nonprofits in the area thatlike support people here and
bring in money to support thenonprofit.
(07:03):
Surprisingly, there's a lot ofpeople that really resonate with
I mean not surprisingly, butlike Flora Fana fine line
tattoos and a lot of my clientsare like 50 plus first tattoo
people that just were like, oh,I didn't know you could get a
tattoo that was of a fireweedillustrative style.
(07:26):
You know they have a verydifferent perspective on tattoo
art and what it means, and so Ihave a lot of those clients.
So, surprisingly, I have a lotof clients and I feel like I've
got great work here which isamazing.
Micah Riot (07:40):
That is amazing.
And I love when you live in thebig like urban area, like I do,
and there's two artists hereand that sometimes it just feels
like I'm just like clawing myway through this, like
oversaturated, yeah, a littlebit like there's just so many
options for people and like, yes, I have enough clients.
(08:00):
Like is that always going to bethe case?
Like am I still relevant?
There's just like a lot ofthese things and, you know, I'm
like what if I go somewhere morerural, because that's what I
really would like to do?
Caitlin Cordell (08:13):
And like, yeah, what makes you want to go more
rural?
Micah Riot (08:17):
I mean the hustle here is a lot and I miss her.
Like I mean, I think I'd liketo go towards the East Coast
because I miss changes inweather, I miss living, I miss
the city.
For instance, it's quite sunnyhere and really it's like all
the driving, all the it's justso.
It's just the energy here is sointense and I'm just closer and
(08:38):
closer to being like I can't dothis anymore.
Caitlin Cordell (08:42):
Totally.
Yeah, I think that's very muchwhere I was at when I was living
in Seattle was like driving andthe hustle and just feeling
like all your time was dedicatedto like working your job and
driving to your job and thentrying to fit in outside of that
, the time to do things thatfelt rejuvenating or connecting
(09:04):
to place and culture andcommunity.
So yeah, I'm with you on thattoo, and there's a lot of
challenges to living rural.
Micah Riot (09:15):
Yeah, I'm sure it's not, you know it's like.
I'm definitely not Like, oh,this, you know, city person
being like it's so easy.
Like I know it's not, I know,but there's a you trade
something for something else,Like there's bosses and this is
to everything.
When did you transition frombeing in Seattle to being like
out in twist area?
Caitlin Cordell (09:37):
Yeah, we moved in 2018 out here and it's a
growing.
It's a little bit of a boomspace.
There's a lot of interest inliving out here from people on
the west side in the Seattle andthe I5 corridor.
A lot of people visit here andwant to live here full time or
(10:00):
have parents that have secondhomes out here and that kind of
thing.
So it was pretty amazing thatwe were able to find this place.
It is unique.
We live in a post and peer yurt,so it's got walls, but it's
very much a like.
(10:20):
It doesn't have a foundation.
It feels like a.
It feels more like a cabin andit's on shared land.
So we live with two otherfamilies here and share it's
like 13 acres.
That's a conservation easement,so it's not able to be
developed.
It's zoned for farming.
(10:41):
We live with a seed farmer.
So it was really interesting.
We had to be vetted and votedon to come and live in this
place from our community and Iwas totally like a city mouse.
I was super naive about what itmeant to live rurally, but my
(11:03):
partner Easton she grew up inMontana and so she kind of had
more understanding knows whatirrigation means.
I had no idea what irrigationwas, or like when and how to cut
firewood and, yeah, just liketons of other stuff that have to
do with living out here.
Micah Riot (11:23):
Okay, what's the biggest, most drastic like thing
that you were like?
Oh my God, this is something Iwish I'd known before.
Caitlin Cordell (11:35):
Gosh, what's something I wish I had known.
I think it's like a mentalitywhen you live in a city there
are so many people that you cancall on to help you do the
things that you don't know howto do so like plumbing,
electrical work, fixing a thingon your house or whatever that
(11:58):
is, and out here there's just sothere's so fewer people and a
lot of them are tapped by thevarious more like higher class
people and so and they can paymore money for it.
So just having that mindset oflike you're going to have to do
(12:20):
most of this yourself and likethat means a lot of YouTube
videos and a lot of time andhaving patience and reading
manuals Like I never read amanual before Like you just plug
it in and it works and you hopeit keeps working and if it
doesn't, you call somebody comefix it.
(12:40):
And it's like if yourdishwasher doesn't work, you got
to fix your dishwasher andthat's been awesome.
Like I feel very empowered bythat.
But it's also definitely been ashocker and super humbling too,
because my perspective on ruralpeople and community and ways
(13:01):
of being in America hasdefinitely shifted from what it
was like for me living inSeattle.
That makes sense.
Micah Riot (13:09):
The perspective shifting that makes so much
sense.
How is community?
It sounds like you have quite abig community there.
Are there a lot of queer folksaround you?
Caitlin Cordell (13:22):
You know, there is actually a really
interesting like older queercommunity here.
So like a lot of older lesbiansthat, like both, they moved here
early on and kind of built someof the like community
nonprofits and like socialmovements in this Valley, which
(13:45):
has been really neat to get toknow, like an elder lesbian
community that I didn't have alot of connection to elders when
I was in Seattle but that hasbeen really powerful here.
And then I would say more likequeer, trans and non-binary
people have been moving to theValley, probably very similar
(14:07):
timeframe that Easton and Imoved here, and those folks it
seems like, yeah, really arequeer people that found that
their nervous systems were justway more supported by living in
a rural Valley.
Like the stimulation of citieswas not supportive of that, and
(14:31):
so and that's true of a lot ofpeople out here too they're just
like wanting out of the hustleof city life.
Yeah, that's small but it isvery present here and like we
have a thriving I mean we have apretty thriving pride here the
community really shows up.
We have a small organizationcalled Mid-How Valley Pride and
(14:56):
they are trying to do more workaround here.
Our schools support gender,non-binary young people.
I work at an alternative highschool and I would say like
probably a third of the studentsthere would identify as either
gay, lesbian or gender queer,non-binary trans.
Micah Riot (15:17):
It's definitely where the young ones are going.
I always said that, you know,as I was like in my 20s and one
of the very like people werejust like gender, what you know,
and I was a gender studiesminor, but I was like if people
thought about their gender for asecond, they would realize
there's as many genders as thereare people and you can't just
like categorize us into twodifferent categories and be done
with it.
(15:37):
Yeah, yeah, people actuallyrealize it, because they're
thinking about gender more.
Caitlin Cordell (15:42):
They are, and they're just like they're
thinking about their gender.
I think in ways beyond that isjust like expansive of even the
box you know, of like eventhinking that masculine to
feminine are the edges you knowthey're like.
No, that's like not even theedge I care about.
(16:02):
Like you know, like I havepeople here who really they're
much more interested in sort ofeco-regional like queerness in
nature or queerness in animalsand so like that edge is being
pushed, or in like bio regionqueerness, like how does our
gender become connected to place?
(16:22):
So that's been really neatabout being here.
Is that kind of explorationbeyond human social constructs.
Micah Riot (16:31):
What's the?
You mentioned the alternativehigh school that you work at.
In those kids like what's thealternative piece?
What?
How is it structured?
That's different.
I'm like happy to hear that'shappening in like more rural
areas too.
Caitlin Cordell (16:42):
Yeah, it's so.
It's like I've always workedwith alternative high schools
and I like grew up going toalternative schools, so they're
very much my people.
This school specifically, it'scalled a big picture school and
that means that they mostly settheir own project deliverables
and then they do a lot of workin internships that are
(17:04):
connected to goals that theyhave.
So young people like I'vementored a lot of young people.
I just did a like a seminar withthree young people on hand
poking, Like how do you do itsafely?
Like here's some of the likethings that you wouldn't want to
think about when you create adesign, how do we work with
stippled texture, that kind ofthing, and that's part of their
(17:26):
learning plan.
So they come to me for fourweeks I do a class and then they
just give a presentation thatkind of tells you and like both
the mentors and their teachers,how they met some of these
deliverables.
Some of them do like crazy coolthings, like metal work or
working at a vet's office orteaching themselves how to
(17:49):
crochet, Like it doesn't matter.
It's a really beautiful culture, very supportive, and you just
see young people go from likestruggling to majorly thriving
over the course of like two tothree years their time there,
and it is it's special for arural place to have that for
sure Do you feel like you'relike a village witch, Like
(18:12):
you're like you wanna be like avillage healer so people can
come to you for like?
Micah Riot (18:17):
Oh Mike, I love that term so much, in a way, Old
school kind of sense, you know,like when you get to be that age
where, like, yeah, people sendtheir young people to you and,
like you do like healing ritualsfor them and that kind of thing
.
Caitlin Cordell (18:33):
Mm-hmm, it's actually.
It's so lovely that youcaptured that idea.
Cause, like, some of the workthat I do with young people is
also around tarot.
So tarot has really been animportant healing modality for
me for the last couple of yearsand I'm actually working on this
tarot deck that I've been, yeah, trying to publish for five
(18:56):
years and part of the.
So I do these classes with youngpeople and their focus
primarily on self-defense andlike violence prevention.
But then we explore identityand we explore like development
and coping mechanisms to dealwith stress, and I always, every
(19:16):
year, I always do a tarot, likea tarot workshop, and I'll
bring in other people from thecommunity to do tarot readings
with them too and like set it upfor them and it is kind of
their favorite piece of it.
And I've done mentorship withyoung people around tarot
reading too.
So, yeah, I would say there issort of a village witch
(19:38):
orientation in that of likeworking with young people and I
just I like identify with youngpeople pretty majorly feel more
comfortable than sometimes I dowith adults.
Micah Riot (19:49):
Have you always been like the big sibling, kind of
like as you roll in life, likeit sounds like you work with
kids for a long time, so haveyou always placed yourself like
in kind of a young mentor typeof positions?
Caitlin Cordell (20:05):
Yeah, that's a pretty apt observation.
Yeah, I'm an older sister to ayounger brother who struggled
pretty deeply and loved being anolder sibling to him and his
friends and started doing campcounseling and youth work
basically since the age of 13.
So, yeah, youth work andmentorship has been a huge part.
(20:29):
And I'm a Virgo, so I just likelove.
I like love teaching.
I'm a Leo rising, so I likebeing at the center of attention
and making people feel reallygood.
And I have a cancer man so I'malso very sensitive.
I'm good yeah.
Micah Riot (20:48):
Do you feel like you're?
Like we're the same age.
I'll be 40 in the month.
Caitlin Cordell (20:52):
Oh congratulations.
Micah Riot (20:54):
Oh, thank you, I guess it's yeah right Instead.
That's a I like congratulationsinstead of happy birthday, like
you made it to some next age.
Like you know, we all make itanywhere.
Really, do you feel like you'rean elder now?
Do you still feel like where?
How do you?
You know, I've just beenthinking about that lately.
(21:17):
Yeah, I'm becoming an elderbecause I'm I had my first
apprentice since she's 23.
And I feel very connected toher and also very like, very
much older than her and it'ssomething to be for the really
the first time in my life, theolder one, not the younger one.
Caitlin Cordell (21:37):
Yeah, and I have a few questions I'd love to
like turn around on that, causeI also think there's some
interesting things around age intattoo industry and culture
that I'm not as familiar with,but I've been observing.
Yeah, I so elder is such aninteresting word.
I think the young people I workwith don't see me as being 40.
(22:00):
They deny that I am 40 most ofthe time, which I take as a
compliment.
But it's also been veryconsistent through my life that
people don't see me as old as Iam, and so I feel like I have
sort of a young energy and so,connecting with young people, I
(22:20):
don't feel older and I alsodon't love being both perceived
and acting like somebody who isolder, cause I think there can
be a tendency as we become olderto kind of do this distancing
culturally with generationsyounger than us, like oh, I
don't understand that, or oh,kids these days, kind of
(22:42):
attitude, and I find like youngpeople's culture and passion and
criticism of systems in theworld to be really interesting
and engaging, and so I don'twant to separate myself from
that.
(23:03):
So I don't know yet that I findmyself feeling like an elder and
I just have so many elders inmy life that I was like, oh,
you've lived like you are anelder, that I still feel so
young in some ways and growing.
But yeah, so I've that questionfor you about like feeling like
(23:26):
an elder, particularly how longhave you been tattooing for?
Micah, 15 years, okay.
So you've been tattooing for awhile and like how have you seen
that?
Has there been a shift for youand how you see yourself or how
other people see you as you getolder and tattooing?
Micah Riot (23:46):
I mean there's so many layers to that question and
answer.
I see the trends shifting.
You know, like when I startedit was still the age of, you
know, and different areas aredifferent too, but in the Bay
Area there was still the age ofwalk-in, like walk-in shop
culture.
There's stuff on the walls thatyou can pick from, and when I
(24:08):
started I did some of that stuffand then, very quickly, as I
started, and that was at a verypopular shop, like a very
popular walk-in shop in the cityin San Francisco very quickly
we took that stuff off the wallsbecause people wanted custom
work and that's kind of likewhere it began to be, you know,
and people still looked at likebooks on the tables, they would
still look at photo books, butthen they came Instagram right,
(24:30):
and so I went from big, busyshop, smaller, quieter shop,
private studio, all because ofInstagram, because people
started looking for tattooartists online instead of
walking in the shop, so I couldhave a private studio and like
be fine.
And then I felt really like inthe prime of it, people weren't
doing like watercolor stuff andI started to do it because I was
(24:52):
interested in, you know, justexpanding, like pushing the
bounds of what a tattoo was andpushing the bounds of what, like
the older dudes would say, wasokay to do.
No, and so I started doing thatwork and then it became very
popular.
A lot of people started doing itand now we're back to like
stickery, looking like lineworkie, small pieces, a lot of
(25:14):
like flash, a lot of sleeves,that like nineties pokey, what
we used to call tribal.
We don't call that now.
We call it now they call itneocigitalism or something.
But you know, these like pokeylooking black designs, people
(25:35):
put in their lower backs andstuff, like the shit that I've
covered up so much for the last15 years.
So in that way, you know, Ihave that like, oh my God, the
young people are doing thisthing again.
Yeah, but I think it'sinteresting what you said about,
you know, having that attitudetowards young people and youth
(25:55):
and their trends and theirculture.
It's like separating ourselvesfrom it and I think we would do
it because of feeling defensive,like I feel, or like feeling
insecure like are we stillrelevant?
Do they still care?
The youth don't realize howmuch power they have in culture
and in acceptance and like inwho gets to, who gets a bigger
(26:20):
slice of the pie, like who getsmore followers or more whatever,
you know.
That's now how the pie I feellike is looking like is like a
lot of online attention andfollowings which I've never been
able to achieve.
Much of my clientele is sort ofI feel like my clientele is
kind of similar.
It's a lot of middle-aged womenwho kind of wake up one day and
(26:45):
go I've given so much of mylife to like my husband, my kids
, and now I have a bit morespace in my life and I have a
bit more disposable income andI'm gonna go do something for
myself, kind of like.
A lot of my clientele is thattype of person.
Not all you know have a lot ofyoung queer folks too.
And then I see like who Sailoris getting as an apprentice.
(27:08):
You know what her clientele islike and she's like she's very
to her like alternative musicculture and like she looks very.
She's got a big piercings inher nose and like eyebrow
piercings and she looks verycool.
You know she wears giantclothes Billie Eilish style
giant clothes.
Caitlin Cordell (27:27):
And I love that .
That's the trend right now.
It's awesome, it's so great.
Micah Riot (27:32):
I totally agree.
I love it too and it also makesme because I have a very like
familial feeling around her.
It makes me feel like safer forher, like it was weird, like
you know.
Remember in the nineties, whenwe had to show our entire torso
from like here to here, becausethat was the trend.
I didn't do that, but that wasthe trend.
(27:52):
I couldn't either.
But yes, yeah, but I'm likeshe's covered up.
I love that.
I love that she's not gettinglike attention in the way well,
she is still getting thatattention.
Yeah, like a girl dad, this isthe thing I'm just like.
I wanna like sit on the porchwith my gun, being like anybody
come near my kid I'm gonna shootthem.
I feel like inside, verydefensive.
Caitlin Cordell (28:16):
And that's.
I think that's like beautifultoo to have you know.
I imagine that you're not likepedantic or like minimizing in
that love and kind of.
Micah Riot (28:30):
I try, I try to check in with you.
I try to be like is this okay,is your boundaries good?
And like and we'll check inabout it.
So it's fine, we'll joke a lotabout it.
She calls me grandpa, so youknow.
It's like I think about age alot in this context, because I
agree with what you said.
(28:50):
It's like I also don't wannaseparate myself, but I also feel
like I have to position myselfsomewhere where I can like kind
of observe, be part of it, butnot cross boundaries and like,
but we all wanna remain relevant, right.
Like the cold moves so fast andtrends.
Myself I'm not gonna go back towhat I thought of in the
(29:11):
nineties was like not thatinteresting of tattoo work and
do that now because of thetrends.
You know like I'm still gonnado my thing, yeah, but at some
point is that gonna becompletely not what anybody
wants, like it's scary.
Caitlin Cordell (29:25):
Yeah, that's so .
I think when you were justtalking, I was thinking about
you know, I've definitely feltinfluenced by trends and you'll
see clients who are.
I think that's like the biggestthing is you see clients
introduced by trends, so theybring some of these ideas to you
.
And I was just reflecting, likeI don't even know if I could,
(29:49):
if I wanted to, in some wayslike change my style because
it's like so I've been drawingsince I could and that is like
how I draw, and I don't evenknow if I could do.
I don't think I could ever dowhat you do, like I just my
(30:10):
concept of color.
I could maybe work really,really hard, but your
composition, your creativity,the way that you think about
those things together, if thatwas the trend, I couldn't do it.
But I do think that there'ssomething really interesting
about tattoo art, which is alsolike deeply part of the
(30:30):
relationship that we build withpeople in community, and I think
I've heard you talk about thaton your podcast, about how you
still have this client base,that it feels okay, and I
imagine part of that is justthat, like you, both the color
and the vibrancy and theinterest that your designs bring
(30:52):
for people.
Those are the people thatgravitate towards you and like
I'll do black and gray, delicatefloral work, you know.
And then you know I like toplay.
But people also in my communitylike spending time with me.
(31:12):
You know that's part of thedraw, is like there's very,
there is a comfort that wecreate together, and so they
want to come back time and timeagain to get tattoos.
Micah Riot (31:24):
It's that village wish thing, you know.
Yeah, totally.
That person is so important tothe inner, like economy, like
the inner, the energy economy ofthe community.
Caitlin Cordell (31:38):
Yeah, yeah, and there's.
I think the Medhav Valley has alove for those village witches,
like you said there's.
I'm located in a area that hasmany artists and makers in it.
It's a nonprofit calledTwispworks, and across the way
(31:59):
from me is a woman who doesplant dyeing of material.
She's been doing that forever.
She's totally a village witch.
And then over on the other sideis my friend, laura, who does
just crazy amazing screenprinting like plant animal.
I mean like just straight upwitch over there and is very
(32:22):
interested in like queer youthculture and like wants to
cultivate that over there.
And I have an illustrator andprintmaker next to me and
there's a woodworker and sothere is kind of this place
where all of these people havebeen around and cultivating
relationship for such a longtime and when you build
relationship with them, youtattoo them.
They bring that into the worldand that community.
(32:45):
I mean that is one of thethings that's really interesting
.
We'll see if I get to like atsome point everybody will have
enough tattoos in this communitythat I won't have enough people
, but they keep coming back.
Micah Riot (32:58):
Yeah, I mean you know how hard just to cover a
body like that's that would takeforever, that's true.
You have like new people comingin, people moving away or
leaving in some other way, likethere's always flow, but so
you're.
So your shop is a privatestudio, I'm assuming.
Caitlin Cordell (33:16):
Yeah, it's a private studio.
It started off just like asmall chair.
In my friend Batania Lady Ursisis their tagline who is a
traditional skills broommaker.
So like literally, I am in abroom shop, which is perfect for
the witch that I am, and thatthe space that they've
(33:37):
cultivated is like incrediblybeautiful.
So I have a small corner spaceback there that I get to use.
Micah Riot (33:44):
Yeah, okay, so you are with.
I'm like trying to imagine this, because I'm imagining in a
very villagy way now, like now Ican't stop.
It's like a street and there'slike the different little.
Caitlin Cordell (33:58):
It's a horseshoe.
It's like a horseshoe.
There's a little green plaza inthe middle.
It's old Forest Servicebuilding that's been refurbished
into studios that go along.
So like old Forest ServiceWashington State, old Forest
Service buildings are like dark,brown and they have like
(34:19):
shingled roofs.
And that's exactly it.
Micah Riot (34:22):
That's perfect, yeah , exactly, yeah, exactly.
Please send a picture so thatyou know this can be visual.
Yes, I've heard of many peoplewhen they listen to podcasts
they like want to go and seewhat the person looks like and
what the space looks like, andso now I'm like I get.
People have told me enoughtimes that they want to see that
(34:43):
I need to put in, like, morepictures into the episodes.
Caitlin Cordell (34:46):
Okay, I'll try to remember to take some photos
of it or send you pictures offrom Google what the space looks
like.
Micah Riot (34:55):
Yeah, yeah, that is beautiful.
So, like what's?
What's it like to try topublish a tarot deck?
Caitlin Cordell (35:06):
This is the question of the hour.
So I've been working on thistarot deck for five and a half
years.
It started off just as aproject to get me drawing again.
I had just finished my master'sprogram in social work at the
University of Washington.
I was not a witch, I was like avery practical Virgo.
(35:28):
I was like so classic, likegive me the facts and like
astrology, whatever.
And then I met Easton and shejust, yeah, flipped my world.
And how did you meet?
How did me and Easton meet?
Yeah, yeah, who does it?
(35:49):
We met in 2015 and through themagical portal world of Okay
Cupid.
At the time, back when OkayCupid I don't know was relevant.
I don't even know what's goingon with Okay Cupid these days,
who's there but it was great.
(36:11):
It felt authentic as a place tomeet people and, yeah, she
reached out and the Gemini andthe Virgo we just love talking
about ideas and she's totalcutie and pretty magical and it
(36:34):
was like, yeah, it was probablyone of the only times in my life
where I really felt like Idated somebody, like we went on
dates, we cultivated dates andlike cultivated getting to know
each other, and that was superspecial and, yeah, and she was
(36:54):
like she's like a river mountainnymph, like maybe I think
you've seen her called plunges.
Micah Riot (37:03):
We've like made some contact.
Yeah, we like had a zoom pointlast time.
Caitlin Cordell (37:08):
Super sweet, yeah.
And she also she's used tarotand been interested in astrology
for a long time and so shebrought those things into my
world and as I've gotten to know, those like tools, those
(37:28):
metaphysical tools, the socialworker and me and sort of that
like practical strategist aroundlike how do we work with the
world?
It all really makes a lot ofsense as archetypal things that
help us feel connected to thecollective and seasons and time.
So I started drawing this tarotdeck and I just couldn't stop.
(37:53):
But just like each piece itstarted to evolve from there and
people were really interestedin the illustrations and it's.
I finished most of theillustrations about a year ago
and now I'm doing the writingand that is just like not my
energy space and so it's kind oflike fell flat a little bit.
(38:15):
But we're working on Easton'shelping me work on publishing at
least the cards or getting atest print of the cards in the
next month or so.
So we're on the path of thatbut it's been long.
Micah Riot (38:29):
So is that a self publishing thing?
Did you find somebody to okay?
Caitlin Cordell (38:32):
No, yeah, no, working with a publisher they
get to control so much of it andyou don't actually make a ton
of money, but it's a great wayto get out there if that's what
you're interested in.
But no, I'll probably do aKickstarter or whatever way to
(38:53):
raise money for it or interestfor it in the next year or so.
But becoming a full-time artistwas also trying to create space
to make this tarot deck happenin the world.
But work the places where youmake money.
Take precedent.
Micah Riot (39:11):
Yeah, no for sure.
This is like your big passionproject.
Caitlin Cordell (39:15):
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like when this tarotdeck comes out, it's like the
child that I'm not, that I amgonna have, but not the human
child.
It's like that kind of energy.
Micah Riot (39:27):
I feel that for this tarot deck.
I was curious about that whenyou were talking about the youth
.
So, shifting a little bit to aquestion of children, like I
very much was clear that Iwasn't gonna birth kids.
I was open to step parentingand I did get to for a while.
What was your path with it?
(39:48):
Like I think it was queer.
So it's like people, as youlike, as we get older, what's
your world around that?
Caitlin Cordell (39:57):
Yeah, gosh, such a big question.
There was something you said.
Did you say snap parenting orSteps parenting, steps parenting
?
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,definitely very clear and
enthusiastically child-free.
(40:20):
And I think a lot of that comesfrom working with children most
of my life and seeing thecomplexity of young people and
caring for them and seeing alsothe complexity of caring for
children and then feeling likethere's not enough time or
energy for other things in yourlife and I just that was not
(40:42):
going to be in the stars andfortunately Easton's also on
that path pretty clearly.
So you know, I think down theline we live in a very small
house but it would be lovely tobe able to create a space for
young people to land.
I helped start a program in theMedjab Valley which is called a
(41:03):
host home program and that isalternative to shelter, because
in rural communities it's reallyhard to sustain shelters for
young people or transitionalhousing, and so you try to work
with local community members toopen up a room in their house to
house a young person who's inan unstable housing situation,
(41:25):
and I think Easton and I wouldlove to probably do that down
the line, but I think that I'mdigging that village witch, you
know, maybe moving into likecrone, you know, like getting I
have a lot of crones in my lifeand I love being the young
(41:48):
person in their life that wantsto take care of them and like be
.
You know, a lot of them don'thave children of their own and I
would love to be the niece, youknow, to those aunties.
That feels like a great deal.
Micah Riot (42:04):
That's the aunties about, like the intense urban
living, like sure, there'sneighbors here in this
neighborhood and such, but it'sreally hard to like.
Yes, I know some elderly folks,but they live across town,
across the bridge, there's a lotof traffic, like it's.
You know, it's just like notvery sustainable and I would be
in a smaller community beingable to just I'll walk to your
(42:26):
house, I'll be there in 10minutes.
Let me drop you off some soupLike that type of.
Thing is something that Ireally wish I had in my life.
Caitlin Cordell (42:33):
Do you want to move to the Mejow Valley?
You can come up here.
Micah Riot (42:37):
I mean Easton and I were talking about getting
together to do some coldplunging, some kind of retreat.
You know we did a lot of that.
But when we hustle it alsofeels like so insurmountable,
like how do we plan somethinglike that?
How do we make it doable for usand for participants?
But yeah, I have, I havethought about coming to visit
(42:58):
you.
Caitlin Cordell (42:59):
Yeah, no, I mean it would be.
I would love to have more queer, community oriented people here
.
I think that would be amazingand I think this place is
deserving of and people like youare deserving of being together
, because you know, the placeslike this should not only be
(43:23):
accessible to the wealthy classof people in this world and
there's ways that this communityis working to make it more
affordable.
But, yeah, if Easton and I canlike support people coming here
who want to come here, who don'thave a lot of access to being
(43:44):
in the mountains or being inrelationship with rivers or
being in relationship with SageStep, like that's something we
would love to cultivate and helppeople have access to, however
we can.
Micah Riot (43:56):
Yeah, I love a community oriented queer.
Caitlin Cordell (44:03):
Yeah, how's how .
I'm so curious.
How is like, how has the tattoocommunity been for you in
Oakland?
Like, how do you connect withfolks out there?
Micah Riot (44:12):
The tattoo artists here.
Yeah, my god, any community,especially when it's small,
there's just always drama, right, some, there's always some.
Yeah, that doesn't mean it'slike life ruining or anything,
but it can be.
And tattoo the tattoo industryhas shifted so much from being
(44:34):
that like old dude, old guard,really masculine, really tough
right, to being much more likehow do we like take care of our
clients' needs across the board,not just their actual tattoo
needs?
Yeah, they have blankets in theshop and tea and like music and
candles and right like shiftingfrom your piece of skin with a
wallet to like and I was neverin that environment so I you
(44:59):
know.
But I remember being at my firstshop, which was an old women
all queer shop, and here in thecity I was like I'm going to go
to a queer shop and going on adate with some like random woman
who was like all tough and liketied it up and super budge and
her being like ah, those, yeah,the like the, the reputation of
black and blue in the communityis like you're just like a bunch
of little soft girls who likedo little soft, little cutesy
(45:21):
tattoos and I was like thank you, like we're on a date, okay,
really you're not interested ingetting in my pants, that's fine
, yeah.
Caitlin Cordell (45:29):
Cause that's not the way it's going to happen
.
Micah Riot (45:32):
Like way to insult the like queer women owned and
operated shop in the bay, youknow, like the oldest, the old
way to shop, Cool.
But so it was like very muchlike that.
There's a lot of competition.
Then the dude started to resentthe queers for like taking
towel, because people were like,oh, I can have a good tattoo
and be treated nicely, Like, andso over time there's just like
(45:56):
more and more and more of thistype of shop right when they
like client experience, forwardshop which creates competition
and like scarcity mindsets.
And there's so many of us hereand people keep pumping out
apprentices like by the dozenevery year, so there's some
scarcity for sure, and I thinkthis podcast is helping people
(46:18):
make connections Me with themand them with me, and sometimes
across the board.
You know I've talked to a bunchof folks now that are lovely
and I know I know that peopleare generally lovely, but you
just have to like, talk to them,Take away the like we're each
(46:39):
other's competition where eachother's that we should.
You know, kind of I thinkthere's an energetic sense of
that, even if people wouldn'tadmit to it Competition between
shops and you know who's got thewhatever type of perk or
whatever type of reputation orfollowing or stars on Yelp or
(47:00):
whatever.
You know, yeah, yeah.
So like literally, talking topeople is helpful and I'm also
trying to talk to people notjust here but in other places,
Kind of like interviewingwhoever is interesting.
And, yeah, yeah, part of thepodcast, you know.
Caitlin Cordell (47:19):
I just really appreciate that.
I think having forums wherepeople can talk candidly and and
then share their experiences,and getting to listen to folks
like I was listening to one ofyour episodes about like trauma
informed tattooing and thatperson's experience and how they
approach trauma work with theirclients and as a community
(47:43):
social worker, that's definitelysomething I am working with and
and also struggling or tryingto figure out how that fits, you
know, and so it's really neatto just hear other people kind
of exploring what are the edgesof boundaries that they use and
how they approach that work withclients, not just the like the
practicality of tattooing, butlike the containers that we
(48:08):
create for people to come in andto have this experience with us
.
Or like listening to you talkabout not wanting to take tips
anymore and I was like, oh yeah,I felt this way actually for a
long time.
I don't want to do that anymore.
Like, yeah, I'll just get paidwhat I want to get paid.
(48:30):
And then you, yeah, definitely,oh, definitely, definitely.
So these like candid spaces oftalking about how we approach
things, you know, as opposed to,I think, some of our like the
culture and tattooing that I'veseen sort of separate from more
of the client focused orientedtattooers and into the like
(48:53):
celebrity tattoo spaces is likevery much about how do I judge
other people who are doing thesethings that I don't agree with
and like put them on blast or bereally passive, aggressive
about how they're tattooing, howthey came up, what they're
doing wrong, yeah, stuff likethat, because they can get
(49:15):
clients, no matter what they're,just like you know they have
millions of followers, so theydon't really care.
But I just don't identify withthat at all.
Micah Riot (49:24):
Yeah, I'm, yeah, my priority is kind of to like,
because I can be very judgy andI don't want to be like, I don't
want to spend my energy thatway, you know.
And so I had this littleinteraction with somebody on
threads who said this youngwoman, she's like in her early
mid 20s and she said recommendnew glides to me.
(49:46):
Like, what is what are peopleusing?
I want new glides.
And I was like aqua for likewhy aren't like?
I just was like what about aqua?
For 15 years?
It's working just fine.
I was like oh my god, no, Iwould never use aqua for
interesting.
Yeah, Then was like well, whylike?
I was curious.
I was like why not?
(50:06):
And I thought about it and justblocked her because I was like
I don't actually care and Idon't actually want to energy
around.
Oh my god, I would never useaqua for like.
Oh yeah, who will get into likerandom ass fights online for
good and bad reasons?
I was like no.
Caitlin Cordell (50:29):
Yeah, yeah, and there's a lot of.
I think there is that kind oftension that we see,
particularly at moments of timewhere industry or culture shifts
, where we're like, why am Iholding on to this thing, like,
and or why isn't this thingstaying?
And younger generations willpush and say, like, why are we
(50:50):
keeping that thing?
But but also, why not keep thatthing like, whatever that is,
whether it's aqua for aparticular glide or, as we've
been moving into cartridges, orit's like fine line or a
disappearing ink, you knowwhatever the fuck is happening
out there.
And I think part of a healthyindustry shift is when people
(51:14):
say you know, like I want togive what I know freely, like my
information, because the truthis somebody had to give it to me
Also.
And so, like, let's create aneconomy where we give freely.
And we know that in an economy,when we have compassion and
collective investment in eachother, everybody thrives.
(51:34):
Or those people that aren'table to carry on in it it's not
because the community didn'tsupport them and say like,
you're talented enough to dothis, and so, yeah, I do think
that they're.
One thing I feel really gratefulfor is coming into this
industry at this particular timewhere the people I follow, the
(51:58):
artists I follow, are soconsiderate, are so interested
in consent, are really likeexplorative about how to do
things well, how to treat skinas like a living, like active
part of a human, you know, likean organ that is like deserving
(52:21):
of so much, like care andtenderness and like healing, and
so those I feel really gratefulbecause when I was interested
in tattooing like 10 years agoand was getting tattoos as like
there's no fucking way I want tobe a part of this like, and I
couldn't get into it, like Iwould have to work so hard and
(52:44):
work for free and that justdidn't feel like something I
could do.
So, yeah, so there is likethere's always that tension
point, I think, in culture shiftand I'm really interested in
like moving in in the directionwhere we're like seeing this as
something that's not just abouta capitalist economy where only
(53:05):
the like you know, the mostbrutal people survive.
Micah Riot (53:10):
Yeah, yeah, I'm it.
As we're moving towards a moregentle way of being with each
other, there's also a movetowards more brutal ways of
being with each other.
On the other hand.
Clearly we see that in Gaza, inIsrael, like it's.
It's hard to hold all of itright, like on many levels the
(53:30):
world is a better place forhumans and on, and then we're so
like facing every day thebrutality that's happening to.
But if you look at like numbers, there's more women getting
educations, there's more babiessurviving, like across the world
, life overall, according tonumbers, is gentler.
(53:52):
But it's really hard to believethat, like, yeah, when you're
on social media and you seewhat's happening in Gaza.
Oh, 100%, 100%.
Caitlin Cordell (54:03):
I was curious.
One question I have for you wasand I wonder if you're seeing
this with other artists but Ithink one of the challenges of
being self promoting, smallbusiness, small artists is like
always thinking about thepresentation of what you know,
who you are and how you are inthe world, and it's just never
(54:26):
felt like an option to me to nottalk about or speak about the
things that I care deeply for.
But it's such a different, it'sa different frame now that I'm
like, oh, if I talk about thisthing or I share this thing,
like how does that interact withmy bookings?
I'm like, damn, I really wantto talk about Gaza right now,
(54:50):
but also my books are open, hey,and so like there's this very
interesting challenge, I think,in being active and responsive
to what's happening in the worldand being a small business
owner.
And I'm like I'm curious ifyou've had to navigate that at
all with clients or in community, like yeah, it's a great
(55:11):
question.
Micah Riot (55:12):
First of all, do what's best for your survival,
because you are who you are inthe world, right?
Like that's my unasked foradvice.
Yeah, if posting about Gaza isinterfering with your ability to
make a living, like, don't postabout Gaza.
Like actually Israel does notgive a shit how much we post
(55:35):
about Gaza.
Like I get that people in Gazaare asking people to post, but
clearly it's not helped.
You know, and on like apersonal level, when I've posted
about Gaza, I have close, closefriends I grew up with who live
in Israel because I immigratedhere from Russia, right?
So I'm from a community ofRussian Jews who could not stay
(55:58):
in Russia, could not survive inRussia, so I'm a home of queer
and for home.
The only place to go was Israel, and what they see there, how
they're inundated there withinformation, is very different.
So when I've posted about Gaza,I have gotten responses from my
people that I grew up withbeing like you are really
hurting me right now right.
(56:19):
So for me, like not hurting themis more important than
screaming about Gaza along witheverybody else screaming about
Gaza because we're all doing itin different ways, right, like
there has not been a day Ihaven't thought about it or like
like deeply been depressedabout it.
But I'm also not screamingabout it online because it
(56:39):
doesn't feel right to me for allthese reasons that I just
mentioned.
But in general, I think weshould be who we are across the
board and everything we do.
So the complexity of that istrue for me and so I'm not going
to be talking that much.
I still do a little bit, butI'm not going to be talking that
much about Gaza on my socialsocials.
(57:03):
But, like you know, when I myintake form includes it's
included different versions ofthis Currently.
What it includes it says I'm mybusiness, I'm striving to make
business anti racist and youknow such human human being
first, whole human first.
So, because of my and otherpeople's marginalized identities
(57:25):
, I ask that you like sign hereto basically state that you are
of similar politics.
I wish not to sit with peoplewho believe different things.
Basically, I should have justinitialed that I used to say,
basically, if you voted forTrump abort this.
Please tell me a bit about youranti racist journey and you
(57:50):
know where you're at, like I'veasked across different years
depending on what was happeningin the world.
And currently I'm just like justacknowledge that you're kind of
on the same page with me, moreor less Like I don't need
anything else from you.
Because I would ask you know,tell me about your anti racism
journey, and people would writeme a novel and I'd be like
actually don't want that.
Caitlin Cordell (58:11):
I really just want you to know that.
Micah Riot (58:14):
You know, because what happened is that I've
tattooed people by accidentearly on that were like I think
I threw this guy accidentallywho was like maybe a KKK member,
I don't know like it was,because people would come into
the shop without disclosinganything, right, and then later
I'd be like what, who is thisperson?
(58:34):
They were really strange.
Being with them was strange.
The energy was not good, likeyeah, I want to do that.
I don't want to give my energyto people who I don't wouldn't
want to have tea with, you know.
So I started asking verydirectly and I also got the
feedback that you know somepeople I knew who would be like
oh yeah, my ex-boyfriend wantedto get tattooed by you, but then
(58:55):
he looked at your intake formand was like no, thank you.
And I was like I don't want totouch you, you don't want to.
Yeah, I have a few questions.
I want to know too much aboutyour politics.
They must not be that great.
So I think it's a line and Ifeel privileged in that I live
in the Bay Area, so most peopleare gonna kind of more or less
(59:19):
agree with me on where I standon things.
I have enough people wanting tobe tattooed by me that the
people who don't want to betattooed by me don't really make
a difference, you know.
So all those things are for mespecifically.
If I lived somewhere where Iwould could barely get enough
work to survive, I wouldprobably drop all that shit and
just deal.
We all have to make a livingand I'd put that energy towards
(59:43):
something else.
Right, If I can donate moremoney over here from some
asshole that I had to tattoo,you know I would still not
tattoo it.
I wasn't like, if I don't wantto tattoo it, I won't tattoo it.
But as far as people go, I cankind of like.
You know, I can see likesometimes you have to give a
little and take a little.
Caitlin Cordell (01:00:02):
Yeah, yeah For that.
It's definitely interesting here.
We're in a county that'sprobably like maybe 6535, so
it's 65 conservative percent, 35progressive, liberal, more on
(01:00:25):
the like Democratic side ofthings, because we have an older
population.
I have a lot of kind of likelibertarian sort of also not
engaged in politic people at allout here.
Like, when you look at thevoting percentages it's real
small.
I think.
(01:00:45):
For me, one thing that I'll dois just like be very clear about
my values, like on Instagram.
I just am like clear about myvalues and and then people can
kind of decide whether or notthey want to be tattooed by me
and I would say, you know, maybe20% of the people that I've
tattooed, in terms of ourpolitics or values might be not
(01:01:10):
necessarily disaligned but notlike congruent and and that has
been something interesting aboutbeing out here, which is living
in close proximity to a lot ofdifferent people, particularly
like class background, so likeaccess to information, so
different access to even contactwith different kinds of people,
(01:01:34):
so different.
And something that feelsimportant to explore in this
kind of community is like whatdoes it mean to live in
community with people whosevalues are dramatically
different than yours but whoalso have values that are
(01:01:55):
incredibly aligned with yoursand like, what is what is a
value?
Is politics the only value thatwe hold, our ideology,
ideologies, only values that wehold?
And I mean that's a tensionpoint.
I don't think I have an answerfor that, necessarily, but I do
think my position in Seattle, Ithink, would be pretty similar.
(01:02:18):
I'd be like fuck you if youvoted for Trump and, honestly,
here I'd probably tattoosomebody who voted for Trump,
but they would have to choose me, like I'm not trying to like
get that many people, but Ithink it would be an interesting
conversation and I'm kind ofinterested here in having
conversations with people acrossdivision, because the full
(01:02:42):
circle back to Gaza and Israelis like Are we really that far
off from being where they're atin this country with the kinds
of ideological positions that wehave, of hurt and pain and
trauma?
And it is a fine line when wetip into a place where we
(01:03:03):
believe that the extinction ofanother person or another
community of people would helpus feel better and safer.
And you know, we're at some ofthose crossroads and I'm like I
don't want to be killed by you.
Like I don't, like literally,like I just don't.
I want to live, and I want youand I want my people to live.
(01:03:23):
And so how do we do that in away where you can see my
humanity and my connection,because I'm willing to engage
with yours and I think that'senough.
Sometimes easier than others,but this is a really unique
community in that thatconversation feels possible more
than I've felt in other places.
Micah Riot (01:03:43):
That's good to hear.
I mean, the complexity of thatis kind of where we need to be.
I think you know, like I kindof hate to be, like we have to
engage with difference.
But what choice do we have?
The choice here is false.
Like I live in a bubble and youknow it's like as much as I can
, like self righteously go, Idon't tattoo people who are not,
(01:04:07):
you know, way, way, way left,like that's only comfortable for
me.
You know, like it makes my lifeeasier, but does that make any
difference to the world?
You know, and that's also yeah,it's as I get older.
Those are the questions that Istruggle with more and like,
yeah, where my tolerance fordifference actually becomes
(01:04:29):
bigger right, because I feellike that is a sign of maturity
is different with not having itmean something about you is a
point of growth.
Like I was able to really holdis a 20 something year old, but
yeah, yeah so so those are allreally good questions and I have
(01:04:52):
, I mean, deep respect for you,to you know, to be able to work
with people and like regarddifference with possibility, and
like not about like who you are, or like what you know, what
you must do, or how you mustdefend a certain thing, or
because, yeah, like respond tobe yelled at really turns out it
(01:05:18):
doesn't, and I mean, some of itis just incredibly practical
because, like, those are thepeople that have guns in my
community, those are the peoplethat have guns and those are the
people that also have thetractors that you need when you
(01:05:39):
need to like move some shitaround.
Caitlin Cordell (01:05:41):
And so there's also this like practical way of
perceiving the fact that I thinkwhen you get older, you also
recognize what it takes to live,and that means being in
relationship enough with peoplewho have some of the things that
you need to live well, and thatyou want to be a part of a
(01:06:06):
culture and an economy where weshare and we rely on each other
in those places.
And if I'm adamant that you arewrong and bad, why would you
want to come work on my road?
Micah Riot (01:06:19):
Right, and if you are, you know, if they have a
teenage kid who's struggling andyou give them a terror reading
and help them get out of theirdeep hole, right then they're
like those two dykes over thereare actually really great people
.
I'm gonna my gun and defendthem, Like liberals without guns
(01:06:40):
or whatever.
Caitlin Cordell (01:06:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah that's a whole another
conversation, but yeah.
Micah Riot (01:06:49):
Sorry to put the label of bikes on you.
I don't know if you identifythat way, but no, I actually
yeah.
Caitlin Cordell (01:06:55):
Dykes have definitely been something that
we identify with, for sure.
Micah Riot (01:06:59):
Yeah, see, like I'm like at a point in my life where
I'm like I want to go rural andI want to be both the like the
dyke with the tarot cards, butalso the dude with the gun.
I want to do both.
Caitlin Cordell (01:07:09):
You can.
So I think, mike, it might betime.
I think you got to come up here.
Micah Riot (01:07:16):
Training first and convince my partner that she can
be like I don't know she.
She has another partner who isvery, very set on living here in
California.
They've been together for like20 years.
So, no, we're gonna end up withthis conversation.
Yeah, looking, you know.
Caitlin Cordell (01:07:37):
Yeah, I mean this place is is really
interesting and that it is ruraland there are a lot of dykes
and and I feel safe.
I mean I feel mostly safe inthis place.
Like we've had people come andyou know a bunch of guys work on
a patio and I'm not sure likewhere they stand and then
(01:07:59):
they're like totally the nicestguys out there and it just like
it does.
It does a little bit of likeflipping in your mind of like
yeah, you probably didn't votefor the guy I voted for, but
you're so welcoming and like youshow up for your family, you
show up for community in adifferent way, but you do show
(01:08:22):
up.
And you know, I think to someextent, like you're saying, like
the smallness of community,like queer community, can also
be so horrible to each other.
My values don't align with alot of the things that, like
some people in my queercommunity, both in Seattle and a
(01:08:42):
little bit here in the youngerqueer community, do and how they
are.
So sometimes it's not just likeparticular identity markers
that allow us to see valuesalignment.
Micah Riot (01:08:56):
There was a meme I saw today that was like a
picture of this, like white manwith a mullet, and it said this
man could be like the mostracist, like gun toting
Republican, or he could be apansexual.
The word was he could be apansexual communist.
Caitlin Cordell (01:09:17):
Yeah, there's times when I'm worried is like
really interesting.
You know, I've had to be atschool board meetings where
people are like really adamantlyagainst sexual health in our
schools, like comprehensivesexual health in our schools,
and you know, you see the tableand people kind of start sitting
down and I'm like, okay, thesepeople will be aligned with us,
(01:09:38):
like I can tell it's you'rewearing a Patagonia jacket and
then they're not.
You're like what?
Or like the old guy with thecowboy hat is like totally on
board.
You know it's just like, ohyeah, warping can't make
assumptions.
Micah Riot (01:09:57):
I guess, assumptions yeah, yeah, well, it's been
lovely Same, and I'm always likekind of sick, feel so abrupt to
be like okay, like we need tofinish up.
Okay, give me like a very smallthing that's been making you
happy lately.
Caitlin Cordell (01:10:18):
A small thing that's been making me happy.
Okay, I'll just show this tothis goofy.
But our cat, our cat, she toldshe's like the love of my life.
She's like my best friend.
Easton had her before me andthen we built this really
(01:10:42):
beautiful relationship with eachother and recently she's been
peeing outside of her box andit's been very distressing to
both.
Easton and I were like evencalling the vet to be like is
this normal?
Like should we be worried?
She's got like a cognitivething.
She's even poop pooping outsideof her box too, which is like
really weird and it's a mess andit's very stressful.
(01:11:03):
But yesterday Easton and Ibuilt like a mega cat litter box
out of a container plasticcontainer and it's got like a
little handle thing and it goesin the side and she's been using
her box really regularly andjust like every time she gets in
that box I'm like she told likehow was that?
(01:11:27):
She's like it was great shecomes out, she peed inside the
box.
There's no pee on the floor andso that's the little thing.
Micah Riot (01:11:37):
I mean that's a great thing and like so nice for
everybody involved.
You're not worried about herbrain function, you're not
worried about your floor.
It's great.
It's great.
It's like sounds like a Yiddishname.
Caitlin Cordell (01:11:53):
Oh yeah, it's it comes from I don't know
actually specific, I can'tremember the language,
specifically in India, butShishi, which actually means
dirty.
But Easton met a cat namedShishi in India and she had an
untimely death.
But then she met this other cat, Sheetal, and she kind of
(01:12:15):
changed the name a little bit.
So Sheetal, Sheetal is yeah,that's her name Okay, cute.
Thanks so much, Micah.
It was a delight getting tomeet you and I'm just like
really impressed with yourengagement in community, with
tattooing and having theseconversations with people.
(01:12:38):
It's really special, Thank you.
Micah Riot (01:12:40):
You are so kind, thank you.
I am also like so fun to get toactually talk to you about all
of our values that you know, Ithink are just like we don't
talk about enough communityoriented values and, yeah, I
really appreciate your time,thank you.
Hello darlings, micah Ride here this episode.
I present to you theconversation I had with Caitlin
Cordell, who is a magical,witchy tattoo artist who lives
in Twist, washington, smallcommunity on a river.
I know Caitlin through theinternet.
(00:20):
Caitlin tattoos in kind of afine line, black and gray style,
mostly plants and animals.
I knew that we would have anamazing conversation because
Caitlin often helps postsstories on social media that
really resonate with me and, ofcourse, the tattoos Caitlin
posts are absolutely gorgeous.
(00:41):
Hear us talk about things aboutbeing in tattoo community,
being older tattoo artistsworking with youth, appreciating
youth, being support for youthand intergenerational love,
intergenerational connection andalso relationships across
(01:03):
political lines, belief lines,value lines and rural life
versus urban life for queers.
It's really a beautifulconversation and Caitlin has the
most infectious laugh.
So here we go.
Hi, caitlin.
Caitlin Cordell (01:55):
Hi Micah.
Micah Riot (01:58):
Why don't we start by you just giving me some
identity markers that areimportant to you, that you would
like the audience to know aboutyou?
Caitlin Cordell (02:06):
Okay, so Caitlin Cordell I use she her
pronouns.
I don't identify as cisgender,just like gender non conforming
feels like the right one.
I'm white, I live in ruralEastern Washington, my group in
(02:30):
Seattle and come from, yeah,pacific Northwest educators and
teachers and definitely identifyas queer.
I have a partner.
(02:51):
We have two cats and an artistand a social worker both of
those things youth worker.
Micah Riot (03:02):
So yeah, I know that you transitioned.
Sorry to interrupt.
I know you transitioned fromsocial work to tattooing.
How long has it been since thattransition happened?
Caitlin Cordell (03:15):
I did that in September.
I turned 40 and I had beendoing youth work for close to 20
years, 25 years and, yeah, Ijust felt like this time in my
life was time to give space tothe artist that had not gotten a
(03:38):
lot of attention.
Micah Riot (03:38):
So, yeah, I feel like I've been seeing your
tattoos much longer than, likewhat, four months, so are you
doing that at the same time?
Caitlin Cordell (03:49):
Yeah, yeah, I was doing that pretty part time.
I started tattooing or handpoke, teaching myself hand poke
tattoo in 2018 and thentransitioned to mostly machine
tattooing in like 2022 withsupport from a mentor.
And then, but yeah, I was doingthat, working like two days a
(04:12):
week tattooing and four days aweek doing social work.
Micah Riot (04:16):
Yeah, and since you live rurally, how does that work
with?
Well, socially work agenciesand also tattooing, like are you
near a big town?
Like where do you do all kindsof work?
Caitlin Cordell (04:33):
Yeah, I'll try to.
I'll try to paint the pictureof where I am.
So I'm actually in.
So I'm in central, central,eastern Washington and I'm in a
valley called the Met HoweValley which is named after the
indigenous people that were herebefore white colonizers.
And some of them still do livein this valley, but many of them
(04:54):
have been displaced and nowbelong to the confederated
tribes of the ColvilleReservation, which is 12 tribes
and it is a valley of like three, four small towns and they kind
(05:14):
of become progressively moreaffluent as you get further
north, and it's a tourist centerin Okanagan County.
It's like truly one of the mostbeautiful places I've ever seen.
It's like land before time.
You know when like he comes outand there's the valley there,
(05:36):
like sometimes when I'm driving,I feel like I'm in the land
before time.
It's like green hills and thenthe river flows through it and
then there's white mountains,there's the cascades that kind
of hug us in here, and the townthat I'm in called Twisp, which
is a Met Howe word forpollinator, I think it's for
(05:58):
yellow jacket is like 3000, 4000people and I'm in the
unincorporated part, so.
But it's pretty affluent, it'sgot a lot of second homeowners
and they kind of help thiseconomy.
I mean, help is a reallyinteresting word but they feed
(06:21):
money into the economy, thetourist economy here, and
there's a lot of local workingpeople that are really supported
by other working people andpeople who care about this
community.
And there's a really fantasticnonprofit organization called
Room One.
That's where I was working formany years and we actually
(06:43):
focused my job, focusedprimarily on sexual health,
violence prevention, work in theschools, but also around
Okanagan County, and thenthere's just like a ton of other
nonprofits in the area thatlike support people here and
bring in money to support thenonprofit.
(07:03):
Surprisingly, there's a lot ofpeople that really resonate with
I mean not surprisingly, butlike Flora Fana fine line
tattoos and a lot of my clientsare like 50 plus first tattoo
people that just were like, oh,I didn't know you could get a
tattoo that was of a fireweedillustrative style.
(07:26):
You know they have a verydifferent perspective on tattoo
art and what it means, and so Ihave a lot of those clients.
So, surprisingly, I have a lotof clients and I feel like I've
got great work here which isamazing.
Micah Riot (07:40):
That is amazing.
And I love when you live in thebig like urban area, like I do,
and there's two artists hereand that sometimes it just feels
like I'm just like clawing myway through this, like
oversaturated, yeah, a littlebit like there's just so many
options for people and like, yes, I have enough clients.
(08:00):
Like is that always going to bethe case?
Like am I still relevant?
There's just like a lot ofthese things and, you know, I'm
like what if I go somewhere morerural, because that's what I
really would like to do?
Caitlin Cordell (08:13):
And like, yeah, what makes you want to go more
rural?
Micah Riot (08:17):
I mean the hustle here is a lot and I miss her.
Like I mean, I think I'd liketo go towards the East Coast
because I miss changes inweather, I miss living, I miss
the city.
For instance, it's quite sunnyhere and really it's like all
the driving, all the it's justso.
It's just the energy here is sointense and I'm just closer and
(08:38):
closer to being like I can't dothis anymore.
Caitlin Cordell (08:42):
Totally.
Yeah, I think that's very muchwhere I was at when I was living
in Seattle was like driving andthe hustle and just feeling
like all your time was dedicatedto like working your job and
driving to your job and thentrying to fit in outside of that
, the time to do things thatfelt rejuvenating or connecting
(09:04):
to place and culture andcommunity.
So yeah, I'm with you on thattoo, and there's a lot of
challenges to living rural.
Micah Riot (09:15):
Yeah, I'm sure it's not, you know it's like.
I'm definitely not Like, oh,this, you know, city person
being like it's so easy.
Like I know it's not, I know,but there's a you trade
something for something else,Like there's bosses and this is
to everything.
When did you transition frombeing in Seattle to being like
out in twist area?
Caitlin Cordell (09:37):
Yeah, we moved in 2018 out here and it's a
growing.
It's a little bit of a boomspace.
There's a lot of interest inliving out here from people on
the west side in the Seattle andthe I5 corridor.
A lot of people visit here andwant to live here full time or
(10:00):
have parents that have secondhomes out here and that kind of
thing.
So it was pretty amazing thatwe were able to find this place.
It is unique.
We live in a post and peer yurt,so it's got walls, but it's
very much a like.
(10:20):
It doesn't have a foundation.
It feels like a.
It feels more like a cabin andit's on shared land.
So we live with two otherfamilies here and share it's
like 13 acres.
That's a conservation easement,so it's not able to be
developed.
It's zoned for farming.
(10:41):
We live with a seed farmer.
So it was really interesting.
We had to be vetted and votedon to come and live in this
place from our community and Iwas totally like a city mouse.
I was super naive about what itmeant to live rurally, but my
(11:03):
partner Easton she grew up inMontana and so she kind of had
more understanding knows whatirrigation means.
I had no idea what irrigationwas, or like when and how to cut
firewood and, yeah, just liketons of other stuff that have to
do with living out here.
Micah Riot (11:23):
Okay, what's the biggest, most drastic like thing
that you were like?
Oh my God, this is something Iwish I'd known before.
Caitlin Cordell (11:35):
Gosh, what's something I wish I had known.
I think it's like a mentalitywhen you live in a city there
are so many people that you cancall on to help you do the
things that you don't know howto do so like plumbing,
electrical work, fixing a thingon your house or whatever that
(11:58):
is, and out here there's just sothere's so fewer people and a
lot of them are tapped by thevarious more like higher class
people and so and they can paymore money for it.
So just having that mindset oflike you're going to have to do
(12:20):
most of this yourself and likethat means a lot of YouTube
videos and a lot of time andhaving patience and reading
manuals Like I never read amanual before Like you just plug
it in and it works and you hopeit keeps working and if it
doesn't, you call somebody comefix it.
(12:40):
And it's like if yourdishwasher doesn't work, you got
to fix your dishwasher andthat's been awesome.
Like I feel very empowered bythat.
But it's also definitely been ashocker and super humbling too,
because my perspective on ruralpeople and community and ways
(13:01):
of being in America hasdefinitely shifted from what it
was like for me living inSeattle.
That makes sense.
Micah Riot (13:09):
The perspective shifting that makes so much
sense.
How is community?
It sounds like you have quite abig community there.
Are there a lot of queer folksaround you?
Caitlin Cordell (13:22):
You know, there is actually a really
interesting like older queercommunity here.
So like a lot of older lesbiansthat, like both, they moved here
early on and kind of built someof the like community
nonprofits and like socialmovements in this Valley, which
(13:45):
has been really neat to get toknow, like an elder lesbian
community that I didn't have alot of connection to elders when
I was in Seattle but that hasbeen really powerful here.
And then I would say more likequeer, trans and non-binary
people have been moving to theValley, probably very similar
(14:07):
timeframe that Easton and Imoved here, and those folks it
seems like, yeah, really arequeer people that found that
their nervous systems were justway more supported by living in
a rural Valley.
Like the stimulation of citieswas not supportive of that, and
(14:31):
so and that's true of a lot ofpeople out here too they're just
like wanting out of the hustleof city life.
Yeah, that's small but it isvery present here and like we
have a thriving I mean we have apretty thriving pride here the
community really shows up.
We have a small organizationcalled Mid-How Valley Pride and
(14:56):
they are trying to do more workaround here.
Our schools support gender,non-binary young people.
I work at an alternative highschool and I would say like
probably a third of the studentsthere would identify as either
gay, lesbian or gender queer,non-binary trans.
Micah Riot (15:17):
It's definitely where the young ones are going.
I always said that, you know,as I was like in my 20s and one
of the very like people werejust like gender, what you know,
and I was a gender studiesminor, but I was like if people
thought about their gender for asecond, they would realize
there's as many genders as thereare people and you can't just
like categorize us into twodifferent categories and be done
with it.
(15:37):
Yeah, yeah, people actuallyrealize it, because they're
thinking about gender more.
Caitlin Cordell (15:42):
They are, and they're just like they're
thinking about their gender.
I think in ways beyond that isjust like expansive of even the
box you know, of like eventhinking that masculine to
feminine are the edges you knowthey're like.
No, that's like not even theedge I care about.
(16:02):
Like you know, like I havepeople here who really they're
much more interested in sort ofeco-regional like queerness in
nature or queerness in animalsand so like that edge is being
pushed, or in like bio regionqueerness, like how does our
gender become connected to place?
(16:22):
So that's been really neatabout being here.
Is that kind of explorationbeyond human social constructs.
Micah Riot (16:31):
What's the?
You mentioned the alternativehigh school that you work at.
In those kids like what's thealternative piece?
What?
How is it structured?
That's different.
I'm like happy to hear that'shappening in like more rural
areas too.
Caitlin Cordell (16:42):
Yeah, it's so.
It's like I've always workedwith alternative high schools
and I like grew up going toalternative schools, so they're
very much my people.
This school specifically, it'scalled a big picture school and
that means that they mostly settheir own project deliverables
and then they do a lot of workin internships that are
(17:04):
connected to goals that theyhave.
So young people like I'vementored a lot of young people.
I just did a like a seminar withthree young people on hand
poking, Like how do you do itsafely?
Like here's some of the likethings that you wouldn't want to
think about when you create adesign, how do we work with
stippled texture, that kind ofthing, and that's part of their
(17:26):
learning plan.
So they come to me for fourweeks I do a class and then they
just give a presentation thatkind of tells you and like both
the mentors and their teachers,how they met some of these
deliverables.
Some of them do like crazy coolthings, like metal work or
working at a vet's office orteaching themselves how to
(17:49):
crochet, Like it doesn't matter.
It's a really beautiful culture, very supportive, and you just
see young people go from likestruggling to majorly thriving
over the course of like two tothree years their time there,
and it is it's special for arural place to have that for
sure Do you feel like you'relike a village witch, Like
(18:12):
you're like you wanna be like avillage healer so people can
come to you for like?
Micah Riot (18:17):
Oh Mike, I love that term so much, in a way, Old
school kind of sense, you know,like when you get to be that age
where, like, yeah, people sendtheir young people to you and,
like you do like healing ritualsfor them and that kind of thing
.
Caitlin Cordell (18:33):
Mm-hmm, it's actually.
It's so lovely that youcaptured that idea.
Cause, like, some of the workthat I do with young people is
also around tarot.
So tarot has really been animportant healing modality for
me for the last couple of yearsand I'm actually working on this
tarot deck that I've been, yeah, trying to publish for five
(18:56):
years and part of the.
So I do these classes with youngpeople and their focus
primarily on self-defense andlike violence prevention.
But then we explore identityand we explore like development
and coping mechanisms to dealwith stress, and I always, every
(19:16):
year, I always do a tarot, likea tarot workshop, and I'll
bring in other people from thecommunity to do tarot readings
with them too and like set it upfor them and it is kind of
their favorite piece of it.
And I've done mentorship withyoung people around tarot
reading too.
So, yeah, I would say there issort of a village witch
(19:38):
orientation in that of likeworking with young people and I
just I like identify with youngpeople pretty majorly feel more
comfortable than sometimes I dowith adults.
Micah Riot (19:49):
Have you always been like the big sibling, kind of
like as you roll in life, likeit sounds like you work with
kids for a long time, so haveyou always placed yourself like
in kind of a young mentor typeof positions?
Caitlin Cordell (20:05):
Yeah, that's a pretty apt observation.
Yeah, I'm an older sister to ayounger brother who struggled
pretty deeply and loved being anolder sibling to him and his
friends and started doing campcounseling and youth work
basically since the age of 13.
So, yeah, youth work andmentorship has been a huge part.
(20:29):
And I'm a Virgo, so I just likelove.
I like love teaching.
I'm a Leo rising, so I likebeing at the center of attention
and making people feel reallygood.
And I have a cancer man so I'malso very sensitive.
I'm good yeah.
Micah Riot (20:48):
Do you feel like you're?
Like we're the same age.
I'll be 40 in the month.
Caitlin Cordell (20:52):
Oh congratulations.
Micah Riot (20:54):
Oh, thank you, I guess it's yeah right Instead.
That's a I like congratulationsinstead of happy birthday, like
you made it to some next age.
Like you know, we all make itanywhere.
Really, do you feel like you'rean elder now?
Do you still feel like where?
How do you?
You know, I've just beenthinking about that lately.
(21:17):
Yeah, I'm becoming an elderbecause I'm I had my first
apprentice since she's 23.
And I feel very connected toher and also very like, very
much older than her and it'ssomething to be for the really
the first time in my life, theolder one, not the younger one.
Caitlin Cordell (21:37):
Yeah, and I have a few questions I'd love to
like turn around on that, causeI also think there's some
interesting things around age intattoo industry and culture
that I'm not as familiar with,but I've been observing.
Yeah, I so elder is such aninteresting word.
I think the young people I workwith don't see me as being 40.
(22:00):
They deny that I am 40 most ofthe time, which I take as a
compliment.
But it's also been veryconsistent through my life that
people don't see me as old as Iam, and so I feel like I have
sort of a young energy and so,connecting with young people, I
(22:20):
don't feel older and I alsodon't love being both perceived
and acting like somebody who isolder, cause I think there can
be a tendency as we become olderto kind of do this distancing
culturally with generationsyounger than us, like oh, I
don't understand that, or oh,kids these days, kind of
(22:42):
attitude, and I find like youngpeople's culture and passion and
criticism of systems in theworld to be really interesting
and engaging, and so I don'twant to separate myself from
that.
(23:03):
So I don't know yet that I findmyself feeling like an elder and
I just have so many elders inmy life that I was like, oh,
you've lived like you are anelder, that I still feel so
young in some ways and growing.
But yeah, so I've that questionfor you about like feeling like
(23:26):
an elder, particularly how longhave you been tattooing for?
Micah, 15 years, okay.
So you've been tattooing for awhile and like how have you seen
that?
Has there been a shift for youand how you see yourself or how
other people see you as you getolder and tattooing?
Micah Riot (23:46):
I mean there's so many layers to that question and
answer.
I see the trends shifting.
You know, like when I startedit was still the age of, you
know, and different areas aredifferent too, but in the Bay
Area there was still the age ofwalk-in, like walk-in shop
culture.
There's stuff on the walls thatyou can pick from, and when I
(24:08):
started I did some of that stuffand then, very quickly, as I
started, and that was at a verypopular shop, like a very
popular walk-in shop in the cityin San Francisco very quickly
we took that stuff off the wallsbecause people wanted custom
work and that's kind of likewhere it began to be, you know,
and people still looked at likebooks on the tables, they would
still look at photo books, butthen they came Instagram right,
(24:30):
and so I went from big, busyshop, smaller, quieter shop,
private studio, all because ofInstagram, because people
started looking for tattooartists online instead of
walking in the shop, so I couldhave a private studio and like
be fine.
And then I felt really like inthe prime of it, people weren't
doing like watercolor stuff andI started to do it because I was
(24:52):
interested in, you know, justexpanding, like pushing the
bounds of what a tattoo was andpushing the bounds of what, like
the older dudes would say, wasokay to do.
No, and so I started doing thatwork and then it became very
popular.
A lot of people started doing itand now we're back to like
stickery, looking like lineworkie, small pieces, a lot of
(25:14):
like flash, a lot of sleeves,that like nineties pokey, what
we used to call tribal.
We don't call that now.
We call it now they call itneocigitalism or something.
But you know, these like pokeylooking black designs, people
(25:35):
put in their lower backs andstuff, like the shit that I've
covered up so much for the last15 years.
So in that way, you know, Ihave that like, oh my God, the
young people are doing thisthing again.
Yeah, but I think it'sinteresting what you said about,
you know, having that attitudetowards young people and youth
(25:55):
and their trends and theirculture.
It's like separating ourselvesfrom it and I think we would do
it because of feeling defensive,like I feel, or like feeling
insecure like are we stillrelevant?
Do they still care?
The youth don't realize howmuch power they have in culture
and in acceptance and like inwho gets to, who gets a bigger
(26:20):
slice of the pie, like who getsmore followers or more whatever,
you know.
That's now how the pie I feellike is looking like is like a
lot of online attention andfollowings which I've never been
able to achieve.
Much of my clientele is sort ofI feel like my clientele is
kind of similar.
It's a lot of middle-aged womenwho kind of wake up one day and
(26:45):
go I've given so much of mylife to like my husband, my kids
, and now I have a bit morespace in my life and I have a
bit more disposable income andI'm gonna go do something for
myself, kind of like.
A lot of my clientele is thattype of person.
Not all you know have a lot ofyoung queer folks too.
And then I see like who Sailoris getting as an apprentice.
(27:08):
You know what her clientele islike and she's like she's very
to her like alternative musicculture and like she looks very.
She's got a big piercings inher nose and like eyebrow
piercings and she looks verycool.
You know she wears giantclothes Billie Eilish style
giant clothes.
Caitlin Cordell (27:27):
And I love that .
That's the trend right now.
It's awesome, it's so great.
Micah Riot (27:32):
I totally agree.
I love it too and it also makesme because I have a very like
familial feeling around her.
It makes me feel like safer forher, like it was weird, like
you know.
Remember in the nineties, whenwe had to show our entire torso
from like here to here, becausethat was the trend.
I didn't do that, but that wasthe trend.
(27:52):
I couldn't either.
But yes, yeah, but I'm likeshe's covered up.
I love that.
I love that she's not gettinglike attention in the way well,
she is still getting thatattention.
Yeah, like a girl dad, this isthe thing I'm just like.
I wanna like sit on the porchwith my gun, being like anybody
come near my kid I'm gonna shootthem.
I feel like inside, verydefensive.
Caitlin Cordell (28:16):
And that's.
I think that's like beautifultoo to have you know.
I imagine that you're not likepedantic or like minimizing in
that love and kind of.
Micah Riot (28:30):
I try, I try to check in with you.
I try to be like is this okay,is your boundaries good?
And like and we'll check inabout it.
So it's fine, we'll joke a lotabout it.
She calls me grandpa, so youknow.
It's like I think about age alot in this context, because I
agree with what you said.
(28:50):
It's like I also don't wannaseparate myself, but I also feel
like I have to position myselfsomewhere where I can like kind
of observe, be part of it, butnot cross boundaries and like,
but we all wanna remain relevant, right.
Like the cold moves so fast andtrends.
Myself I'm not gonna go back towhat I thought of in the
(29:11):
nineties was like not thatinteresting of tattoo work and
do that now because of thetrends.
You know like I'm still gonnado my thing, yeah, but at some
point is that gonna becompletely not what anybody
wants, like it's scary.
Caitlin Cordell (29:25):
Yeah, that's so .
I think when you were justtalking, I was thinking about
you know, I've definitely feltinfluenced by trends and you'll
see clients who are.
I think that's like the biggestthing is you see clients
introduced by trends, so theybring some of these ideas to you
.
And I was just reflecting, likeI don't even know if I could,
(29:49):
if I wanted to, in some wayslike change my style because
it's like so I've been drawingsince I could and that is like
how I draw, and I don't evenknow if I could do.
I don't think I could ever dowhat you do, like I just my
(30:10):
concept of color.
I could maybe work really,really hard, but your
composition, your creativity,the way that you think about
those things together, if thatwas the trend, I couldn't do it.
But I do think that there'ssomething really interesting
about tattoo art, which is alsolike deeply part of the
(30:30):
relationship that we build withpeople in community, and I think
I've heard you talk about thaton your podcast, about how you
still have this client base,that it feels okay, and I
imagine part of that is justthat, like you, both the color
and the vibrancy and theinterest that your designs bring
(30:52):
for people.
Those are the people thatgravitate towards you and like
I'll do black and gray, delicatefloral work, you know.
And then you know I like toplay.
But people also in my communitylike spending time with me.
(31:12):
You know that's part of thedraw, is like there's very,
there is a comfort that wecreate together, and so they
want to come back time and timeagain to get tattoos.
Micah Riot (31:24):
It's that village wish thing, you know.
Yeah, totally.
That person is so important tothe inner, like economy, like
the inner, the energy economy ofthe community.
Caitlin Cordell (31:38):
Yeah, yeah, and there's.
I think the Medhav Valley has alove for those village witches,
like you said there's.
I'm located in a area that hasmany artists and makers in it.
It's a nonprofit calledTwispworks, and across the way
(31:59):
from me is a woman who doesplant dyeing of material.
She's been doing that forever.
She's totally a village witch.
And then over on the other sideis my friend, laura, who does
just crazy amazing screenprinting like plant animal.
I mean like just straight upwitch over there and is very
(32:22):
interested in like queer youthculture and like wants to
cultivate that over there.
And I have an illustrator andprintmaker next to me and
there's a woodworker and sothere is kind of this place
where all of these people havebeen around and cultivating
relationship for such a longtime and when you build
relationship with them, youtattoo them.
They bring that into the worldand that community.
(32:45):
I mean that is one of thethings that's really interesting
.
We'll see if I get to like atsome point everybody will have
enough tattoos in this communitythat I won't have enough people
, but they keep coming back.
Micah Riot (32:58):
Yeah, I mean you know how hard just to cover a
body like that's that would takeforever, that's true.
You have like new people comingin, people moving away or
leaving in some other way, likethere's always flow, but so
you're.
So your shop is a privatestudio, I'm assuming.
Caitlin Cordell (33:16):
Yeah, it's a private studio.
It started off just like asmall chair.
In my friend Batania Lady Ursisis their tagline who is a
traditional skills broommaker.
So like literally, I am in abroom shop, which is perfect for
the witch that I am, and thatthe space that they've
(33:37):
cultivated is like incrediblybeautiful.
So I have a small corner spaceback there that I get to use.
Micah Riot (33:44):
Yeah, okay, so you are with.
I'm like trying to imagine this, because I'm imagining in a
very villagy way now, like now Ican't stop.
It's like a street and there'slike the different little.
Caitlin Cordell (33:58):
It's a horseshoe.
It's like a horseshoe.
There's a little green plaza inthe middle.
It's old Forest Servicebuilding that's been refurbished
into studios that go along.
So like old Forest ServiceWashington State, old Forest
Service buildings are like dark,brown and they have like
(34:19):
shingled roofs.
And that's exactly it.
Micah Riot (34:22):
That's perfect, yeah , exactly, yeah, exactly.
Please send a picture so thatyou know this can be visual.
Yes, I've heard of many peoplewhen they listen to podcasts
they like want to go and seewhat the person looks like and
what the space looks like, andso now I'm like I get.
People have told me enoughtimes that they want to see that
(34:43):
I need to put in, like, morepictures into the episodes.
Caitlin Cordell (34:46):
Okay, I'll try to remember to take some photos
of it or send you pictures offrom Google what the space looks
like.
Micah Riot (34:55):
Yeah, yeah, that is beautiful.
So, like what's?
What's it like to try topublish a tarot deck?
Caitlin Cordell (35:06):
This is the question of the hour.
So I've been working on thistarot deck for five and a half
years.
It started off just as aproject to get me drawing again.
I had just finished my master'sprogram in social work at the
University of Washington.
I was not a witch, I was like avery practical Virgo.
(35:28):
I was like so classic, likegive me the facts and like
astrology, whatever.
And then I met Easton and shejust, yeah, flipped my world.
And how did you meet?
How did me and Easton meet?
Yeah, yeah, who does it?
(35:49):
We met in 2015 and through themagical portal world of Okay
Cupid.
At the time, back when OkayCupid I don't know was relevant.
I don't even know what's goingon with Okay Cupid these days,
who's there but it was great.
(36:11):
It felt authentic as a place tomeet people and, yeah, she
reached out and the Gemini andthe Virgo we just love talking
about ideas and she's totalcutie and pretty magical and it
(36:34):
was like, yeah, it was probablyone of the only times in my life
where I really felt like Idated somebody, like we went on
dates, we cultivated dates andlike cultivated getting to know
each other, and that was superspecial and, yeah, and she was
(36:54):
like she's like a river mountainnymph, like maybe I think
you've seen her called plunges.
Micah Riot (37:03):
We've like made some contact.
Yeah, we like had a zoom pointlast time.
Caitlin Cordell (37:08):
Super sweet, yeah.
And she also she's used tarotand been interested in astrology
for a long time and so shebrought those things into my
world and as I've gotten to know, those like tools, those
(37:28):
metaphysical tools, the socialworker and me and sort of that
like practical strategist aroundlike how do we work with the
world?
It all really makes a lot ofsense as archetypal things that
help us feel connected to thecollective and seasons and time.
So I started drawing this tarotdeck and I just couldn't stop.
(37:53):
But just like each piece itstarted to evolve from there and
people were really interestedin the illustrations and it's.
I finished most of theillustrations about a year ago
and now I'm doing the writingand that is just like not my
energy space and so it's kind oflike fell flat a little bit.
(38:15):
But we're working on Easton'shelping me work on publishing at
least the cards or getting atest print of the cards in the
next month or so.
So we're on the path of thatbut it's been long.
Micah Riot (38:29):
So is that a self publishing thing?
Did you find somebody to okay?
Caitlin Cordell (38:32):
No, yeah, no, working with a publisher they
get to control so much of it andyou don't actually make a ton
of money, but it's a great wayto get out there if that's what
you're interested in.
But no, I'll probably do aKickstarter or whatever way to
(38:53):
raise money for it or interestfor it in the next year or so.
But becoming a full-time artistwas also trying to create space
to make this tarot deck happenin the world.
But work the places where youmake money.
Take precedent.
Micah Riot (39:11):
Yeah, no for sure.
This is like your big passionproject.
Caitlin Cordell (39:15):
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like when this tarotdeck comes out, it's like the
child that I'm not, that I amgonna have, but not the human
child.
It's like that kind of energy.
Micah Riot (39:27):
I feel that for this tarot deck.
I was curious about that whenyou were talking about the youth
.
So, shifting a little bit to aquestion of children, like I
very much was clear that Iwasn't gonna birth kids.
I was open to step parentingand I did get to for a while.
What was your path with it?
(39:48):
Like I think it was queer.
So it's like people, as youlike, as we get older, what's
your world around that?
Caitlin Cordell (39:57):
Yeah, gosh, such a big question.
There was something you said.
Did you say snap parenting orSteps parenting, steps parenting
?
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,definitely very clear and
enthusiastically child-free.
(40:20):
And I think a lot of that comesfrom working with children most
of my life and seeing thecomplexity of young people and
caring for them and seeing alsothe complexity of caring for
children and then feeling likethere's not enough time or
energy for other things in yourlife and I just that was not
(40:42):
going to be in the stars andfortunately Easton's also on
that path pretty clearly.
So you know, I think down theline we live in a very small
house but it would be lovely tobe able to create a space for
young people to land.
I helped start a program in theMedjab Valley which is called a
(41:03):
host home program and that isalternative to shelter, because
in rural communities it's reallyhard to sustain shelters for
young people or transitionalhousing, and so you try to work
with local community members toopen up a room in their house to
house a young person who's inan unstable housing situation,
(41:25):
and I think Easton and I wouldlove to probably do that down
the line, but I think that I'mdigging that village witch, you
know, maybe moving into likecrone, you know, like getting I
have a lot of crones in my lifeand I love being the young
(41:48):
person in their life that wantsto take care of them and like be
.
You know, a lot of them don'thave children of their own and I
would love to be the niece, youknow, to those aunties.
That feels like a great deal.
Micah Riot (42:04):
That's the aunties about, like the intense urban
living, like sure, there'sneighbors here in this
neighborhood and such, but it'sreally hard to like.
Yes, I know some elderly folks,but they live across town,
across the bridge, there's a lotof traffic, like it's.
You know, it's just like notvery sustainable and I would be
in a smaller community beingable to just I'll walk to your
(42:26):
house, I'll be there in 10minutes.
Let me drop you off some soupLike that type of.
Thing is something that Ireally wish I had in my life.
Caitlin Cordell (42:33):
Do you want to move to the Mejow Valley?
You can come up here.
Micah Riot (42:37):
I mean Easton and I were talking about getting
together to do some coldplunging, some kind of retreat.
You know we did a lot of that.
But when we hustle it alsofeels like so insurmountable,
like how do we plan somethinglike that?
How do we make it doable for usand for participants?
But yeah, I have, I havethought about coming to visit
(42:58):
you.
Caitlin Cordell (42:59):
Yeah, no, I mean it would be.
I would love to have more queer, community oriented people here
.
I think that would be amazingand I think this place is
deserving of and people like youare deserving of being together
, because you know, the placeslike this should not only be
(43:23):
accessible to the wealthy classof people in this world and
there's ways that this communityis working to make it more
affordable.
But, yeah, if Easton and I canlike support people coming here
who want to come here, who don'thave a lot of access to being
(43:44):
in the mountains or being inrelationship with rivers or
being in relationship with SageStep, like that's something we
would love to cultivate and helppeople have access to, however
we can.
Micah Riot (43:56):
Yeah, I love a community oriented queer.
Caitlin Cordell (44:03):
Yeah, how's how .
I'm so curious.
How is like, how has the tattoocommunity been for you in
Oakland?
Like, how do you connect withfolks out there?
Micah Riot (44:12):
The tattoo artists here.
Yeah, my god, any community,especially when it's small,
there's just always drama, right, some, there's always some.
Yeah, that doesn't mean it'slike life ruining or anything,
but it can be.
And tattoo the tattoo industryhas shifted so much from being
(44:34):
that like old dude, old guard,really masculine, really tough
right, to being much more likehow do we like take care of our
clients' needs across the board,not just their actual tattoo
needs?
Yeah, they have blankets in theshop and tea and like music and
candles and right like shiftingfrom your piece of skin with a
wallet to like and I was neverin that environment so I you
(44:59):
know.
But I remember being at my firstshop, which was an old women
all queer shop, and here in thecity I was like I'm going to go
to a queer shop and going on adate with some like random woman
who was like all tough and liketied it up and super budge and
her being like ah, those, yeah,the like the, the reputation of
black and blue in the communityis like you're just like a bunch
of little soft girls who likedo little soft, little cutesy
(45:21):
tattoos and I was like thank you, like we're on a date, okay,
really you're not interested ingetting in my pants, that's fine
, yeah.
Caitlin Cordell (45:29):
Cause that's not the way it's going to happen
.
Micah Riot (45:32):
Like way to insult the like queer women owned and
operated shop in the bay, youknow, like the oldest, the old
way to shop, Cool.
But so it was like very muchlike that.
There's a lot of competition.
Then the dude started to resentthe queers for like taking
towel, because people were like,oh, I can have a good tattoo
and be treated nicely, Like, andso over time there's just like
(45:56):
more and more and more of thistype of shop right when they
like client experience, forwardshop which creates competition
and like scarcity mindsets.
And there's so many of us hereand people keep pumping out
apprentices like by the dozenevery year, so there's some
scarcity for sure, and I thinkthis podcast is helping people
(46:18):
make connections Me with themand them with me, and sometimes
across the board.
You know I've talked to a bunchof folks now that are lovely
and I know I know that peopleare generally lovely, but you
just have to like, talk to them,Take away the like we're each
(46:39):
other's competition where eachother's that we should.
You know, kind of I thinkthere's an energetic sense of
that, even if people wouldn'tadmit to it Competition between
shops and you know who's got thewhatever type of perk or
whatever type of reputation orfollowing or stars on Yelp or
(47:00):
whatever.
You know, yeah, yeah.
So like literally, talking topeople is helpful and I'm also
trying to talk to people notjust here but in other places,
Kind of like interviewingwhoever is interesting.
And, yeah, yeah, part of thepodcast, you know.
Caitlin Cordell (47:19):
I just really appreciate that.
I think having forums wherepeople can talk candidly and and
then share their experiences,and getting to listen to folks
like I was listening to one ofyour episodes about like trauma
informed tattooing and thatperson's experience and how they
approach trauma work with theirclients and as a community
(47:43):
social worker, that's definitelysomething I am working with and
and also struggling or tryingto figure out how that fits, you
know, and so it's really neatto just hear other people kind
of exploring what are the edgesof boundaries that they use and
how they approach that work withclients, not just the like the
practicality of tattooing, butlike the containers that we
(48:08):
create for people to come in andto have this experience with us
.
Or like listening to you talkabout not wanting to take tips
anymore and I was like, oh yeah,I felt this way actually for a
long time.
I don't want to do that anymore.
Like, yeah, I'll just get paidwhat I want to get paid.
(48:30):
And then you, yeah, definitely,oh, definitely, definitely.
So these like candid spaces oftalking about how we approach
things, you know, as opposed to,I think, some of our like the
culture and tattooing that I'veseen sort of separate from more
of the client focused orientedtattooers and into the like
(48:53):
celebrity tattoo spaces is likevery much about how do I judge
other people who are doing thesethings that I don't agree with
and like put them on blast or bereally passive, aggressive
about how they're tattooing, howthey came up, what they're
doing wrong, yeah, stuff likethat, because they can get
(49:15):
clients, no matter what they're,just like you know they have
millions of followers, so theydon't really care.
But I just don't identify withthat at all.
Micah Riot (49:24):
Yeah, I'm, yeah, my priority is kind of to like,
because I can be very judgy andI don't want to be like, I don't
want to spend my energy thatway, you know.
And so I had this littleinteraction with somebody on
threads who said this youngwoman, she's like in her early
mid 20s and she said recommendnew glides to me.
(49:46):
Like, what is what are peopleusing?
I want new glides.
And I was like aqua for likewhy aren't like?
I just was like what about aqua?
For 15 years?
It's working just fine.
I was like oh my god, no, Iwould never use aqua for
interesting.
Yeah, Then was like well, whylike?
I was curious.
I was like why not?
(50:06):
And I thought about it and justblocked her because I was like
I don't actually care and Idon't actually want to energy
around.
Oh my god, I would never useaqua for like.
Oh yeah, who will get into likerandom ass fights online for
good and bad reasons?
I was like no.
Caitlin Cordell (50:29):
Yeah, yeah, and there's a lot of.
I think there is that kind oftension that we see,
particularly at moments of timewhere industry or culture shifts
, where we're like, why am Iholding on to this thing, like,
and or why isn't this thingstaying?
And younger generations willpush and say, like, why are we
(50:50):
keeping that thing?
But but also, why not keep thatthing like, whatever that is,
whether it's aqua for aparticular glide or, as we've
been moving into cartridges, orit's like fine line or a
disappearing ink, you knowwhatever the fuck is happening
out there.
And I think part of a healthyindustry shift is when people
(51:14):
say you know, like I want togive what I know freely, like my
information, because the truthis somebody had to give it to me
Also.
And so, like, let's create aneconomy where we give freely.
And we know that in an economy,when we have compassion and
collective investment in eachother, everybody thrives.
(51:34):
Or those people that aren'table to carry on in it it's not
because the community didn'tsupport them and say like,
you're talented enough to dothis, and so, yeah, I do think
that they're.
One thing I feel really gratefulfor is coming into this
industry at this particular timewhere the people I follow, the
(51:58):
artists I follow, are soconsiderate, are so interested
in consent, are really likeexplorative about how to do
things well, how to treat skinas like a living, like active
part of a human, you know, likean organ that is like deserving
(52:21):
of so much, like care andtenderness and like healing, and
so those I feel really gratefulbecause when I was interested
in tattooing like 10 years agoand was getting tattoos as like
there's no fucking way I want tobe a part of this like, and I
couldn't get into it, like Iwould have to work so hard and
(52:44):
work for free and that justdidn't feel like something I
could do.
So, yeah, so there is likethere's always that tension
point, I think, in culture shiftand I'm really interested in
like moving in in the directionwhere we're like seeing this as
something that's not just abouta capitalist economy where only
(53:05):
the like you know, the mostbrutal people survive.
Micah Riot (53:10):
Yeah, yeah, I'm it.
As we're moving towards a moregentle way of being with each
other, there's also a movetowards more brutal ways of
being with each other.
On the other hand.
Clearly we see that in Gaza, inIsrael, like it's.
It's hard to hold all of itright, like on many levels the
(53:30):
world is a better place forhumans and on, and then we're so
like facing every day thebrutality that's happening to.
But if you look at like numbers, there's more women getting
educations, there's more babiessurviving, like across the world
, life overall, according tonumbers, is gentler.
(53:52):
But it's really hard to believethat, like, yeah, when you're
on social media and you seewhat's happening in Gaza.
Oh, 100%, 100%.
Caitlin Cordell (54:03):
I was curious.
One question I have for you wasand I wonder if you're seeing
this with other artists but Ithink one of the challenges of
being self promoting, smallbusiness, small artists is like
always thinking about thepresentation of what you know,
who you are and how you are inthe world, and it's just never
(54:26):
felt like an option to me to nottalk about or speak about the
things that I care deeply for.
But it's such a different, it'sa different frame now that I'm
like, oh, if I talk about thisthing or I share this thing,
like how does that interact withmy bookings?
I'm like, damn, I really wantto talk about Gaza right now,
(54:50):
but also my books are open, hey,and so like there's this very
interesting challenge, I think,in being active and responsive
to what's happening in the worldand being a small business
owner.
And I'm like I'm curious ifyou've had to navigate that at
all with clients or in community, like yeah, it's a great
(55:11):
question.
Micah Riot (55:12):
First of all, do what's best for your survival,
because you are who you are inthe world, right?
Like that's my unasked foradvice.
Yeah, if posting about Gaza isinterfering with your ability to
make a living, like, don't postabout Gaza.
Like actually Israel does notgive a shit how much we post
(55:35):
about Gaza.
Like I get that people in Gazaare asking people to post, but
clearly it's not helped.
You know, and on like apersonal level, when I've posted
about Gaza, I have close, closefriends I grew up with who live
in Israel because I immigratedhere from Russia, right?
So I'm from a community ofRussian Jews who could not stay
(55:58):
in Russia, could not survive inRussia, so I'm a home of queer
and for home.
The only place to go was Israel, and what they see there, how
they're inundated there withinformation, is very different.
So when I've posted about Gaza,I have gotten responses from my
people that I grew up withbeing like you are really
hurting me right now right.
(56:19):
So for me, like not hurting themis more important than
screaming about Gaza along witheverybody else screaming about
Gaza because we're all doing itin different ways, right, like
there has not been a day Ihaven't thought about it or like
like deeply been depressedabout it.
But I'm also not screamingabout it online because it
(56:39):
doesn't feel right to me for allthese reasons that I just
mentioned.
But in general, I think weshould be who we are across the
board and everything we do.
So the complexity of that istrue for me and so I'm not going
to be talking that much.
I still do a little bit, butI'm not going to be talking that
much about Gaza on my socialsocials.
(57:03):
But, like you know, when I myintake form includes it's
included different versions ofthis Currently.
What it includes it says I'm mybusiness, I'm striving to make
business anti racist and youknow such human human being
first, whole human first.
So, because of my and otherpeople's marginalized identities
(57:25):
, I ask that you like sign hereto basically state that you are
of similar politics.
I wish not to sit with peoplewho believe different things.
Basically, I should have justinitialed that I used to say,
basically, if you voted forTrump abort this.
Please tell me a bit about youranti racist journey and you
(57:50):
know where you're at, like I'veasked across different years
depending on what was happeningin the world.
And currently I'm just like justacknowledge that you're kind of
on the same page with me, moreor less Like I don't need
anything else from you.
Because I would ask you know,tell me about your anti racism
journey, and people would writeme a novel and I'd be like
actually don't want that.
Caitlin Cordell (58:11):
I really just want you to know that.
Micah Riot (58:14):
You know, because what happened is that I've
tattooed people by accidentearly on that were like I think
I threw this guy accidentallywho was like maybe a KKK member,
I don't know like it was,because people would come into
the shop without disclosinganything, right, and then later
I'd be like what, who is thisperson?
(58:34):
They were really strange.
Being with them was strange.
The energy was not good, likeyeah, I want to do that.
I don't want to give my energyto people who I don't wouldn't
want to have tea with, you know.
So I started asking verydirectly and I also got the
feedback that you know somepeople I knew who would be like
oh yeah, my ex-boyfriend wantedto get tattooed by you, but then
(58:55):
he looked at your intake formand was like no, thank you.
And I was like I don't want totouch you, you don't want to.
Yeah, I have a few questions.
I want to know too much aboutyour politics.
They must not be that great.
So I think it's a line and Ifeel privileged in that I live
in the Bay Area, so most peopleare gonna kind of more or less
(59:19):
agree with me on where I standon things.
I have enough people wanting tobe tattooed by me that the
people who don't want to betattooed by me don't really make
a difference, you know.
So all those things are for mespecifically.
If I lived somewhere where Iwould could barely get enough
work to survive, I wouldprobably drop all that shit and
just deal.
We all have to make a livingand I'd put that energy towards
(59:43):
something else.
Right, If I can donate moremoney over here from some
asshole that I had to tattoo,you know I would still not
tattoo it.
I wasn't like, if I don't wantto tattoo it, I won't tattoo it.
But as far as people go, I cankind of like.
You know, I can see likesometimes you have to give a
little and take a little.
Caitlin Cordell (01:00:02):
Yeah, yeah For that.
It's definitely interesting here.
We're in a county that'sprobably like maybe 6535, so
it's 65 conservative percent, 35progressive, liberal, more on
(01:00:25):
the like Democratic side ofthings, because we have an older
population.
I have a lot of kind of likelibertarian sort of also not
engaged in politic people at allout here.
Like, when you look at thevoting percentages it's real
small.
I think.
(01:00:45):
For me, one thing that I'll dois just like be very clear about
my values, like on Instagram.
I just am like clear about myvalues and and then people can
kind of decide whether or notthey want to be tattooed by me
and I would say, you know, maybe20% of the people that I've
tattooed, in terms of ourpolitics or values might be not
(01:01:10):
necessarily disaligned but notlike congruent and and that has
been something interesting aboutbeing out here, which is living
in close proximity to a lot ofdifferent people, particularly
like class background, so likeaccess to information, so
different access to even contactwith different kinds of people,
(01:01:34):
so different.
And something that feelsimportant to explore in this
kind of community is like whatdoes it mean to live in
community with people whosevalues are dramatically
different than yours but whoalso have values that are
(01:01:55):
incredibly aligned with yoursand like, what is what is a
value?
Is politics the only value thatwe hold, our ideology,
ideologies, only values that wehold?
And I mean that's a tensionpoint.
I don't think I have an answerfor that, necessarily, but I do
think my position in Seattle, Ithink, would be pretty similar.
(01:02:18):
I'd be like fuck you if youvoted for Trump and, honestly,
here I'd probably tattoosomebody who voted for Trump,
but they would have to choose me, like I'm not trying to like
get that many people, but Ithink it would be an interesting
conversation and I'm kind ofinterested here in having
conversations with people acrossdivision, because the full
(01:02:42):
circle back to Gaza and Israelis like Are we really that far
off from being where they're atin this country with the kinds
of ideological positions that wehave, of hurt and pain and
trauma?
And it is a fine line when wetip into a place where we
(01:03:03):
believe that the extinction ofanother person or another
community of people would helpus feel better and safer.
And you know, we're at some ofthose crossroads and I'm like I
don't want to be killed by you.
Like I don't, like literally,like I just don't.
I want to live, and I want youand I want my people to live.
(01:03:23):
And so how do we do that in away where you can see my
humanity and my connection,because I'm willing to engage
with yours and I think that'senough.
Sometimes easier than others,but this is a really unique
community in that thatconversation feels possible more
than I've felt in other places.
Micah Riot (01:03:43):
That's good to hear.
I mean, the complexity of thatis kind of where we need to be.
I think you know, like I kindof hate to be, like we have to
engage with difference.
But what choice do we have?
The choice here is false.
Like I live in a bubble and youknow it's like as much as I can
, like self righteously go, Idon't tattoo people who are not,
(01:04:07):
you know, way, way, way left,like that's only comfortable for
me.
You know, like it makes my lifeeasier, but does that make any
difference to the world?
You know, and that's also yeah,it's as I get older.
Those are the questions that Istruggle with more and like,
yeah, where my tolerance fordifference actually becomes
(01:04:29):
bigger right, because I feellike that is a sign of maturity
is different with not having itmean something about you is a
point of growth.
Like I was able to really holdis a 20 something year old, but
yeah, yeah so so those are allreally good questions and I have
(01:04:52):
, I mean, deep respect for you,to you know, to be able to work
with people and like regarddifference with possibility, and
like not about like who you are, or like what you know, what
you must do, or how you mustdefend a certain thing, or
because, yeah, like respond tobe yelled at really turns out it
(01:05:18):
doesn't, and I mean, some of itis just incredibly practical
because, like, those are thepeople that have guns in my
community, those are the peoplethat have guns and those are the
people that also have thetractors that you need when you
(01:05:39):
need to like move some shitaround.
Caitlin Cordell (01:05:41):
And so there's also this like practical way of
perceiving the fact that I thinkwhen you get older, you also
recognize what it takes to live,and that means being in
relationship enough with peoplewho have some of the things that
you need to live well, and thatyou want to be a part of a
(01:06:06):
culture and an economy where weshare and we rely on each other
in those places.
And if I'm adamant that you arewrong and bad, why would you
want to come work on my road?
Micah Riot (01:06:19):
Right, and if you are, you know, if they have a
teenage kid who's struggling andyou give them a terror reading
and help them get out of theirdeep hole, right then they're
like those two dykes over thereare actually really great people
.
I'm gonna my gun and defendthem, Like liberals without guns
(01:06:40):
or whatever.
Caitlin Cordell (01:06:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah that's a whole another
conversation, but yeah.
Micah Riot (01:06:49):
Sorry to put the label of bikes on you.
I don't know if you identifythat way, but no, I actually
yeah.
Caitlin Cordell (01:06:55):
Dykes have definitely been something that
we identify with, for sure.
Micah Riot (01:06:59):
Yeah, see, like I'm like at a point in my life where
I'm like I want to go rural andI want to be both the like the
dyke with the tarot cards, butalso the dude with the gun.
I want to do both.
Caitlin Cordell (01:07:09):
You can.
So I think, mike, it might betime.
I think you got to come up here.
Micah Riot (01:07:16):
Training first and convince my partner that she can
be like I don't know she.
She has another partner who isvery, very set on living here in
California.
They've been together for like20 years.
So, no, we're gonna end up withthis conversation.
Yeah, looking, you know.
Caitlin Cordell (01:07:37):
Yeah, I mean this place is is really
interesting and that it is ruraland there are a lot of dykes
and and I feel safe.
I mean I feel mostly safe inthis place.
Like we've had people come andyou know a bunch of guys work on
a patio and I'm not sure likewhere they stand and then
(01:07:59):
they're like totally the nicestguys out there and it just like
it does.
It does a little bit of likeflipping in your mind of like
yeah, you probably didn't votefor the guy I voted for, but
you're so welcoming and like youshow up for your family, you
show up for community in adifferent way, but you do show
(01:08:22):
up.
And you know, I think to someextent, like you're saying, like
the smallness of community,like queer community, can also
be so horrible to each other.
My values don't align with alot of the things that, like
some people in my queercommunity, both in Seattle and a
(01:08:42):
little bit here in the youngerqueer community, do and how they
are.
So sometimes it's not just likeparticular identity markers
that allow us to see valuesalignment.
Micah Riot (01:08:56):
There was a meme I saw today that was like a
picture of this, like white manwith a mullet, and it said this
man could be like the mostracist, like gun toting
Republican, or he could be apansexual.
The word was he could be apansexual communist.
Caitlin Cordell (01:09:17):
Yeah, there's times when I'm worried is like
really interesting.
You know, I've had to be atschool board meetings where
people are like really adamantlyagainst sexual health in our
schools, like comprehensivesexual health in our schools,
and you know, you see the tableand people kind of start sitting
down and I'm like, okay, thesepeople will be aligned with us,
(01:09:38):
like I can tell it's you'rewearing a Patagonia jacket and
then they're not.
You're like what?
Or like the old guy with thecowboy hat is like totally on
board.
You know it's just like, ohyeah, warping can't make
assumptions.
Micah Riot (01:09:57):
I guess, assumptions yeah, yeah, well, it's been
lovely Same, and I'm always likekind of sick, feel so abrupt to
be like okay, like we need tofinish up.
Okay, give me like a very smallthing that's been making you
happy lately.
Caitlin Cordell (01:10:18):
A small thing that's been making me happy.
Okay, I'll just show this tothis goofy.
But our cat, our cat, she toldshe's like the love of my life.
She's like my best friend.
Easton had her before me andthen we built this really
(01:10:42):
beautiful relationship with eachother and recently she's been
peeing outside of her box andit's been very distressing to
both.
Easton and I were like evencalling the vet to be like is
this normal?
Like should we be worried?
She's got like a cognitivething.
She's even poop pooping outsideof her box too, which is like
really weird and it's a mess andit's very stressful.
(01:11:03):
But yesterday Easton and Ibuilt like a mega cat litter box
out of a container plasticcontainer and it's got like a
little handle thing and it goesin the side and she's been using
her box really regularly andjust like every time she gets in
that box I'm like she told likehow was that?
(01:11:27):
She's like it was great shecomes out, she peed inside the
box.
There's no pee on the floor andso that's the little thing.
Micah Riot (01:11:37):
I mean that's a great thing and like so nice for
everybody involved.
You're not worried about herbrain function, you're not
worried about your floor.
It's great.
It's great.
It's like sounds like a Yiddishname.
Caitlin Cordell (01:11:53):
Oh yeah, it's it comes from I don't know
actually specific, I can'tremember the language,
specifically in India, butShishi, which actually means
dirty.
But Easton met a cat namedShishi in India and she had an
untimely death.
But then she met this other cat, Sheetal, and she kind of
(01:12:15):
changed the name a little bit.
So Sheetal, Sheetal is yeah,that's her name Okay, cute.
Thanks so much, Micah.
It was a delight getting tomeet you and I'm just like
really impressed with yourengagement in community, with
tattooing and having theseconversations with people.
(01:12:38):
It's really special, Thank you.
Micah Riot (01:12:40):
You are so kind, thank you.
I am also like so fun to get toactually talk to you about all
of our values that you know, Ithink are just like we don't
talk about enough communityoriented values and, yeah, I
really appreciate your time,thank you.
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