Ep. 73: An Original Leather Dyke Daddy: Skeeter Barker

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I met Skeeter Barker at her queer community yoga classes in the Mission circa 2007 or 8, and fell in love with her immediately. A strong, heavily tattooed, older butch in loose fitting cargo shorts and tank, with sparkling eyes, glasses, a British accent, and a gentle yet firm style of teaching, she was unlike any other yoga teacher I'd met before. And being in her classes made me want to keep doing yoga. So I did.

Over the years we found other things in common, such as the leather community, a love of retreats... and a bunch of years ago Skeeter found her way to my tattoo table and never left.

For Ink Medicine I spoke with Skeeter about ... everything. Identity and community, and tattoos, and queer history. At 60 she knows a thing or two about being a dyke and a leather daddy, since she has been out in the scene for more than forty years. I suppose some would call her a queer elder.

If you'd like a visual treat, and you love leather dyke culture, find your way to a viewing of the Michelle Handeman documentary BloodSisters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BloodSisters_(1995_film)
Skeeter happens to be one of the main people in it. 

You can connect with me, Micah Riot, as well as see my tattoo art on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/micahriot/

Micah's website is www.micahriot.com
The podcast is hosted on Buzzsprout but truly lives in the heart of Micah's website at:
https://www.micahriot.com/ink-medicine-podcast/

Episode Transcript

Micah Riot (00:00):
Hello darlings, hello this is Micah.
Riot.
Today I have a guest on mypodcast that I've been wanting
to have for probably as long asthe podcast has existed.
It is Skeeter Barker and if youdon't know who she is, I'm
sorry.
But if you don't know who sheis, she is a community leader, a

(00:20):
yoga teacher, a dyke, a butchdyke very hot butch dyke, daddy
style.
A leather dyke, a leather woman, a leather maker.
Skeeter Barker works for MR SLeather, world-known leather
outfitter for gay men.
They make toys, they makeclothing, fetish gear, and she

(00:44):
designs and used to do a lot ofthe sewing but I believe now is
managing the sewing at Mr SLeather.
She travels for the company andshe's one of the main people
there at the company.
She's really built the companyup to be what it is today and
this is not a flex for all, butshe is friends with people like

(01:06):
Dan Savage and his husband Terry.
It's a flux for me.
I love Dan Savage and I'veknown her for almost as long as
I've been in SF living in theBay Area and for a lot of that
time.
In early years I had a giantcrush on her and we have now
become friends.
She's been getting tattooed byme for a bunch of years and the

(01:30):
very first introduction to her Ihad was as a 24 year old I
think I was 24 at the time,maybe 23.
And I started coming to heryoga classes with my then lover,
who broke my heart into amillion little pieces.
It was really probably thehardest time of my life as far

(01:56):
as heartbreak goes, as far asrelationships coming apart go,
and I started going to Skeeter'syoga class every week and
sometimes twice a week, and justhealed myself through it, like
really, I mean I did a lot ofthings that first year after
that relationship, but that wasone of the main things and I

(02:17):
kind of imprinted on Skeeter asa mentor and kind of a lovely
parental energy and by parentalI mean daddy energy.
I think of Skeeter as kind ofenergetically community daddy.
I don't know anybody that Ispent time with back then in
those days in SF when I was inmy 20s who was not affected by

(02:41):
Skeeter, by her kindness, herpresence, her wisdom, her
adjusting us on the yoga floor.
We all wanted to be adjusted byher.
Anyway, why don't we listen toher?
Here she is Skeeter, micah, howlong have we known each other?

Skeeter Barker (03:27):
You know you might be better able to answer
that than me.
I have no memory.

Micah Riot (03:30):
I was like 24 and I'm 40 now.
Oh, there you go.
What's the math on?

Skeeter Barker (03:34):
that.

Micah Riot (03:34):
It's like about 16 years or so.

Skeeter Barker (03:38):
Seems longer, but yeah.

Micah Riot (03:39):
Yeah, I mean it's also my adult life, yeah.

Skeeter Barker (03:42):
I mean, you were definitely a baby when I met
you like young, you know queer.

Micah Riot (03:46):
I mean I had just had my heart broken, yeah, and
just was like coming to yourglasses like crying yeah.

Skeeter Barker (03:54):
Yeah, that was a very common, I think, thing in
those queer classes, you know,or heavily queer, where people
and I hope I gave permission tojust be like you know what Lie
down and cry and what can I do.

Micah Riot (04:07):
So you know before you, like I didn't.
I wasn't seeking out yoga ever,right, like yoga wasn't
something that I was like I wantto go do that because it was so
skinny white lady like thing.
And then I came to your classesand I was like here's like a
butchch, like a very differenttype of person covered in
tattoos, yeah, older.

(04:29):
It just felt so good to be inthat space, like I felt so held
by you and like so did everybodyelse.
That's why we kept coming right, yeah, I mean it's funny how
did you come to that?

Skeeter Barker (04:40):
yeah, it was an act.
I call myself the accidentalyoga teacher because I really I
had done yoga for years, but Iwas that like, especially back
in the day, I was the hairy legtattooed butch in the back with
weird cargo shorts on, whileeverybody else were these skinny
white ladies and lululemon.
I mean, it really wasuncomfortable.
But there was something aboutthe practice of yoga, in this

(05:02):
particular style of yoga, thatreally spoke to me in my body in
a way that, because I wasn't agym bunny, I didn't, you know, I
was never a jock, but it spoketo me and I felt like empowered
in it.
So I kept going.
And then I found a teacher who Ireally loved and I did a
whatever three month in-depthtraining with her in San
Francisco and I was like, oh, Iwant to know more.

(05:23):
And then she was doing theteacher training and so I signed
up for the teacher training,which was a year long, to get
deeper into it myself.
And at the end, before the endof it, and she taught at that
studio in San Francisco, shelooked me up, she literally
looked me up and down and saidyou need to teach.
And I'm like, no, no, no, I'mnot trying to teach.
She said said you need to teach.
She said I have a communityclass at this studio.

(05:46):
There's the slots opening upfor a teacher.
Maybe five people come donationon a Wednesday night.
You should take it maybe fivehuh yeah, right, it was like
that, yeah, and I was like youknow what, okay, let me give it
a go and I think, exactly.
I think, because of the way Ilooked and the way that I teach,
which is I'm not in your body,I don't have the experience of

(06:10):
your body, so I'm going to throwsome things out, you can modify
, you can expand, I think theclass became permission for
however you were walking in Plus, I think, yeah, the way I
looked and who I was incommunity, other people could
come and access it and it veryquickly, like within a month, it
swelled to like 25, 30, 40 andthis was the yoga coolest space

(06:32):
this was the year and yeah, inSan Francisco, beautiful studio,
right, yeah.
And then I went to a Fridaynight as well, wednesday, friday
and Monday.
Monday started over in Oakland.
It started in the um.
I was doing three days a weekwhen I went to namaste and you
know it was I've always done,even in the park, wherever I've
done it and done talk withrachel as well always been

(06:52):
donation based.
You know, at the studios it'sharder because there was like we
, you have, I'm like I will onlyteach anywhere and you see, a
lot of people come.
If there's got, there's got tobe a sliding scale.
So it just grew and I thinkpeople, yeah, people who'd never
been into yoga or thought yogawas for them, found access and

(07:13):
community.
Like so many things happened.
People found partners, theyfound a wardrobe because
somebody was getting rid of it.
They found a roommate.
You know there was so manyconnections.
People would talk because itwas always the last class and I
love that, like I love seeingthe connections.
And I've had people many yearslater say, me and my partner, we
were married with a kid.

(07:34):
We met in your class, we met atyour retreat.

Micah Riot (07:36):
I'm like that's beautiful, the retreat so the
retreat, the retreat happenedlike I think I got to start
going at like the second retreat, like I was super early on that
train yeah, you were, and itwas so great and for a decade
you know, I looked forward tothat.
Every that would come.

(07:56):
Every fall, we would do it inseptember, right, and I mean?
then we started doing a springone closer we did and I didn't
go to that and it's up one time,but, um, it was a different
space.
I really loved that land.

Skeeter Barker (08:07):
Different space, different vibe, different vibe,
those two yeah.
But being on that land up therein what was that town called, I
always want to say Ukiah, butthat's where all Hot Springs is
Higher up.

Micah Riot (08:20):
It was higher than Ukiah.

Skeeter Barker (08:21):
It was higher yeah, and it's Christy Kiefer's
land.
Yeah, christy Kiefer's land,women's land.

Micah Riot (08:27):
It was so beautiful there and it was so restoring.
I felt like that was my sort ofturnover of relief of the year,
like going there, leaving somethings, taking some things.

Skeeter Barker (08:38):
Yeah, and I think we set intentional space
to have circles of like what areyou working with, what are you
bringing in?
In the closing circle.
It was very woo-woo yeah peopledid they?
they released things, they letthings go.
Um, you know a dear friend ofmine who, like you, came on the
early train, was coming, coming,coming, and you know she a few
years ago died of cancer in her40s and one of the things that

(09:01):
was really meaningful was to seeher blossom over the years,
because she came very, very shyand she was a writer an amazing
writer and she was very nervous.
We had the talent show, right.
It's like, do whatever, justget up there and you know
everybody will clap for you.
And I saw her sort of reallyblossom and she started reading
her, her work and she, shebecame a writer, so things like

(09:22):
that.
Where it was yes, it's aboutyoga, but it's not just about
move your body in theseparticular positions, but like
become empowered, you know, inin in yourself enough to live a
powerful life so I mean, that'show I know you from yoga.

Micah Riot (09:38):
But there's so many other sort of crossovers or
pieces like yeah, there are.
So let's talk about yourtattoos.
So you started coming to me toget tattooed at some point.
Yeah, periodically, fordifferent pieces, like through
the years.
Yeah, you had you.
You have a lot of tattoo work.
You probably were the mosttattooed person for much of your

(09:59):
life, right, and you were outand about, yeah, yeah, I think.

Skeeter Barker (10:02):
You see, I do think that's true.
I mean, I think there werepeople more heavily tattooed
than me in the sort of sanfrancisco body mod world of the
90s.
But you know, within yeah but Idefinitely was how did you?
Start that journey the tattoojourney for me.
Yeah, so okay, how?

Micah Riot (10:18):
old, are you?
I'm 60 and you are from.

Skeeter Barker (10:24):
England.

Micah Riot (10:25):
Great Britain.

Skeeter Barker (10:26):
Yes, there are many ways to say that that's
going to one way or another,going to sort of be the right or
the wrong way to say it, but Iwas born in Scotland, grew up in
Devon in England.

Micah Riot (10:34):
And then, when did you come over here to the New
World?

Skeeter Barker (10:38):
Yeah, I moved to London and was a young dyke in
London, a young leather dyke,had a really good time in my
sort of early twenties, veryearly twenties.
And then I moved or I didn'tmove to San Francisco.
I came on a visit because I'djust broken up with somebody and
was like, oh, I just needdifferent change of scenery.
Came to San Francisco lateeighties heyday I mean heyday

(10:58):
and hard because the AIDSepidemic was just a whole
generation of gay and theleather community at that point
was very integrated between, youknow, the dykes and the gay
guys.
It was like the leather, youknow, it was just, it was
beautiful.
So came to San Francisco, hadthe big earthquake in 89.
I'm like, what the fuck is that?

Micah Riot (11:19):
You were here for that and you were there.

Skeeter Barker (11:20):
Yeah, that's wild, I don't this.
And people are like, no, no, no, we and you have a bit.
Yeah, that's wild, I don't this.
And people are like, no, no, no, we have earthquakes, but that
is an earthquake, yeah that wasa special one.

Micah Riot (11:30):
That was a very.
What were you doing when thatwas happening?

Skeeter Barker (11:31):
I was actually buzzing Jamie's hair.
Okay, we were watching theWorld Series at a friend's house
and suddenly the game cut out.
Game cut out the clippers thatI had done.
Half her hair stopped and thewhole place started shaking.
These old San Francisco flatsTerrifying, like for me.

(11:52):
If, like, the ground beneathyou completely is shaking
everything, there's nothing tohold on to.
So the funny part was that wehad no power for you know
whatever a week after, and soJamie had half a shaved head for
a while, was that?

Micah Riot (12:09):
we had no power for you know whatever week after,
and so Jamie had half a shavedhead for a while.
No one took like a little handshaver.

Skeeter Barker (12:14):
We were just all freaked out.
We were all sitting in coffeeshops like where were you?

Micah Riot (12:19):
You know, it really was a.
Thing.

Skeeter Barker (12:20):
It was very anyway, and there were many
aftershocks, but I love SanFrancisco.
I was having great fun playing,falling in and out of love.
Just the heyday of, like youknow, there were bars and it was
just fun.
How long of a visit was it?
Well, the first time I came forthree weeks, okay, and I went

(12:41):
back to my life in London and Iwas like I like I gotta go for
longer.
So I think after about anothersix months I got a year visa.
I came here for a year andduring that time it really was,
like you know, I met jamie.
She became my boy.
You know we really I justreally started to make some yeah
, how you do when you're in yourearly 20s, like roots, like

(13:02):
this is, you know, chosen family, chosen family.
And so I went back to Londonafter six months, moved for a
year, back and forth for acouple of years, and then
Jamie's roommate, scott, who isjust a great guy, and we were
really good friends.
And one night, at New Year's Ithink, we were all drunk on

(13:23):
Jägermeister at a club and hegot down on his knees said will
you marry me?
So I did and, if immigration'slistening, we were very in love
and I know the story.

Micah Riot (13:34):
I've heard that you were very in love.

Skeeter Barker (13:35):
We were very in love and we got married and I
got, you know, my permanentgreen card.
Yeah, so I just I never reallyplanned on it.
I didn't emigrate, I didn't,you know, for years after my mom
was like are you coming home?
You know, you got stuff in thein, so I just kind of left and
stayed again, kind ofaccidentally, but created a life
.
And now I bridge two worldsbecause I go back to england and

(13:57):
they're like you sound soamerican and I'm hearing people
like are you australian?

Micah Riot (14:02):
new zealand south african.

Skeeter Barker (14:05):
So yeah, I've been here 35 plus years thinking
about it the.
And I'm hearing people like, areyou Australian, new, zealand,
south African?
I was like, oh, so yeah, I'vebeen here 35 plus years.
Thinking about it, the otherday, you know, people ask me how
long I've been at Mr S.
You know Mr S Leathers and I,yeah, that's 35 years too.
I mean Jamie worked there firstand I got a job there.

(14:25):
So I've been there a long, longtime, kind of run the company
with two other guys, two guys,so longevity at this point of
being 60.
And you know I moved around alot in my youth.
I traveled through europe, Ihitchhiked, I moved a lot.
We moved a lot when I was a kid.
So the fact that I have been ina job as long as I've been in
and know, have a 15 year old sonand have solid family, chosen

(14:47):
family here, you know, I feelyou sort of look back sometimes.
I mean, when you get older, youlook back and you're like, wow,
like when and how did all thathappen?
Like you know that thing, mymemory is so always been weird.
And sometimes I look back andI'm like it just was yesterday,
like I remember the earthquake.

(15:07):
I remember moving to SanFrancisco.
I remember the you know summerof love and it was amazing.
And then sometimes it's likethat is a long time ago and so
what I love is like yourself,like I've known you 16 years.
You know I've got friends Jamieand I have known each other
most of that 35 years.
I've got friends, jamie and Ihave known each other most of
that 35 years.

(15:28):
Richelle and I, you know 20plus.
So it's a good thing andsometimes it's really, I think,
as you get older, to look backand be like, wow, a lot has
happened and I look forward to alot more happening.

Micah Riot (15:43):
But it changes, it's different, and I look forward
to a lot more happening, but itchanges, it's different.
I started doing this thing onNew Year's around New Year's
that I look at the year and Ijust know the things that
happened Through the year.
It's so easy to forget, yeah,like literally what happened.
I took this trip, I had thisamazing conversation, so I
remember I made stickers, I madea podcast.

(16:04):
I made this many episodes of thepodcast.
I worked on like this thing inmy life.
I got done to work Like whatyou know, just noting things
that happened because it is soeasy to lose track of like
things that happened Right andthen 20 years later you're like
all this shit happened somehow,somewhere, somewhere.

Skeeter Barker (16:22):
Do you also then do a sort of visioning for the
next year?
That were things you want, oris it just that retrospective of
this has been my year and I'mjust going to mark these
achievements so that yeah, morethat, less of the like, what's
going to happen next year?

Micah Riot (16:35):
we'll see what happens next year.
I mean, if I have some goalsthat might be like, oh, I'm
going to try to, you know,tighten up my finances, I'm
going to try to you I have, uh,an apprentice to teach like I
know that's gonna happen nextyear, right, but yeah, just to
like really look at each yearand just be like all this stuff
happened and I remember it.

Skeeter Barker (16:53):
Now that I've said it, yeah I usually tell it
to liz, you know yeah, we have aconversation about things that
happen I mean, I think thatthing of the tradition in many
parts of the world and culturesis that oral oral history where
you tell the stories and youknow, in, in, in cultures where
the elders are more respectedand people will sit and listen,
that oral history is passed on.
And you know, I I do think thatit is good to recount things

(17:17):
and remember things and havepeople witness it.
You know, I think that thereare people who you know.
I think that there are peoplewho you know I'm just going to
keep using the earthquake as anexample but there are people
like I was with jamie when thathappened.
So when we talk about it orremind each other, it's very
visceral, it's very like, yes,we remember that trauma bond,
the trauma bond, as you will,but you know, um for sure.

Micah Riot (17:39):
Yeah, I mean, we all remember where we were at 9-11.
You know exactly.
I was sitting in a classroom.

Skeeter Barker (17:43):
Exactly, yeah, and I think that one of the
things for me because my memoryhas, or maybe because I moved
and had, you know, whateverchildhood I had but I think that
I once described myself as aloaf of sliced bread.
You know, and it's like thewhole loaf is me, the whole loaf
is my life.
You know, from one end to theother is going to be my life,
but each piece of it is can feellike a separate slice.

(18:07):
You know, I can talk about myyoga and I can talk about queer
yoga and the retreats, andthat's like a full, beautiful
slice.
I can talk about kink or, youknow, sort of being in the
leather scene and, um, that issomething else, and sometimes I
have a hard time weaving thethread through the whole loaf.
You know, like these, thesepieces belong together.
I don't think you're a breadloaf.

Micah Riot (18:30):
I'm not a bread loaf .
I think you're like a cake.
Oh yeah, like like many,layered like.
Do you have chocolate?
I love chocolate, chocolatecake.

Skeeter Barker (18:40):
I don't know, but you're like a bread loaf I
mean, you know, I'm justthinking about sliced bread.
You know, I'm not necessarilylike slices of a cake.

Micah Riot (18:47):
Sure, your cake with , like, some chili on it and
some chocolate.
No chili, no chili not withchocolate.

Skeeter Barker (18:53):
I don't do so.
You're not spicy.

Micah Riot (18:55):
Oh, I am spicy, which is why I don't need spice,
I just yeah um well, it's not acake you want to eat, it's, you
are the cake oh interesting.

Skeeter Barker (19:03):
Yeah, I'll take it.

Micah Riot (19:06):
I mean you can pick whatever flavors are in the cake
, but I'm like a bread loaf,that's funny.

Skeeter Barker (19:10):
I never really thought about the whole you know
sort of um deliciousness of it.

Micah Riot (19:15):
It's just the way I sort of visualize my life I do
love bread, though, so notnothing against bread, nothing
wrong with bread, but you know,it's like we'll say white bread
or whatever.
Like yeah, it's like boring.
Yeah, like there's nothingboring about the different, like
chapters of your life no, no,no, not at all.

Skeeter Barker (19:29):
I, I they're very full and I just I feel very
, you know, yeah, there's beensome tricky parts and difficult
parts and there's been someamazing parts and you know, I
really I feel grateful becauseI've known a lot of people who
did not make it past 40, past 30, past 50, like a lot of people,
a lot of 20-year-olds, you know, gay guys, died in that.

(19:49):
You know, we constantly at thattime in the leather community
we were often sitting at thebedside of, you know, because it
went really fast from somebodygetting full-blown AIDS and
without having any medicines.
And they just died Very fast,and so we were often sitting at
bedsides and going to memorials,you know, most weekends.
And so to get to 60, to behealthy, to be, I still think of

(20:12):
myself as vibrant, to be sortof out in the world doing things
.
It doesn't go unnoticed thatit's really a privilege.
Aging is a bitch and it's aprivilege to be able to do it.
I mean, what other choice,right Otherwise?
you die, otherwise you go on towhatever's next.
So obviously I'm not done.
I've got a long life ahead ofme when did you get your first

(20:36):
tattoo, you know?
I think it was around the ageof 15.
I remember the place, you know.
It was in Plymouth, where I wasgrowing up and I had slept with
my first girlfriend when I was14 she was kind of a little bit
older than me came, startedcoming to my school and sort of
seduced me and how to say more.

Micah Riot (20:56):
How say more about that?
Like at that time you've had nobooks, no other people probably
that were really visible likehow did you, how did it happen?
How, like, how did you justsort of know, like what you want
?

Skeeter Barker (21:10):
and oh, I didn't want to did and I had no idea I
was a tomboy all my life and Iwas never.
I went to an all-girls schooland I was never.
You know, the girls were like,oh, because the boys school was
next door and I never, neverhave had a sexual attraction.
I men are great.
I love men, work with them allday, have a son, love men.
Just have never had a sexualattraction to a guy.

(21:33):
I'm a you know what, do youcall it a gold star?
Gold star, I'll take it.
Um, and so I.
But I wasn't also necessarilythat I can remember attracted to
girls.
I love my friends, I was funny,I was popular, but I, I, and
then this, this tough girlcalled Debbie, came to my school

(21:56):
and she, man, she was acharacter but you know, beyond
tomboy, just like, and she wasvery, I think she had a tough
time.
I know she had a tough time.
So she was very sort of likeshe was not trying to make
friends with anybody and forsome reason she liked me and we
started hanging out and then Iremember one night she stayed
over at my house.
She was sleeping on you knowwhatever, on the floor and I was

(22:20):
in my little single bed thereand I remember she got into bed
with me and she just startedkissing me and I think I cried.
I mean I had no concept.
She knew what she wanted.
I had no concept of what wasgoing on.
But you know, later learned that, you know she was, she was 15,
maybe going on 16.
And she had already explored,because back in the day this is

(22:41):
Plymouth, it's a naval, workingclass town there was a red light
area, you know, and where allthe sex workers worked, there
was a back street.
That's where I got my firsttattoo.
It was like a sailor shop,literally like you know, the
stereotypical.
And then there was a gay barway down this old cobbled lane,
you know, and she'd already beenthere and I remember, after we

(23:05):
started doing our thing you know, she completely underage but
nobody caught it in those daysshe took me into that bar and I
remember so clearly.
I walked in and there were allthese bull daggers at the, at
the bar, you know, sitting therelike full on older bull daggers
, and the ladies, the femmes,were all kind of sitting around
the tables and I feel like I'msure it wasn't this clear, but

(23:28):
to my mind I feel like I gotlooked up and down, like it was
almost like where are you goingto sit?

Micah Riot (23:33):
Like it felt like I had to choose right.
Like a gender, like you had tochoose a gender, you just had to
choose and you had no.

Skeeter Barker (23:40):
No, I always had short hair, I was always a
tomboy, okay so, and Debbie hadbeen there before and she walked
straight up to the bar.
I walked up to the bar, satdown, you know, and I remember
this old butch.
I mean, again, my memory is.
You know how you piece memorytogether, but in my mind and in
my memory, this old butchslapped me on the shoulder and

(24:05):
she's like hey and year, youknow, I broke her heart,
sleeping with a, an older womanwho's a dj at club, and she
joined the army, which was oneof the choices, and she went
away, so she was a butch onbutch kind of she was a butch on
butch, yeah, and I were not.
Well, I feel like all I didn'tknow, I didn't know at that
point I I didn't know, but I hada very much a that sort of awe

(24:27):
about the mystery of femmes.
You know, like it was soopposite to me and butches were
familiar to me, or at least youknow I can model myself in that
way with them.
So I have certainly dated andhad good relationships with, you
know, two or three butchers inmy life, but really I am, you

(24:47):
know, mostly my attraction isfor feminine women, or not, you
know, not high femme, like justjust a powerful femme woman.
But, I have such a deepappreciation for mask, you know,
like like a pride, and I likelike that attraction, like I see
someone mask in the street andI'm just like that head nod in

(25:08):
that way that they show up orwatching young you know butchers
or mask people just findingthemselves and I'm like it just
makes my heart full.
And you know, like in the kinkworld I've certainly like I love
to beat a boy.
You know I love to sort of Ihad a boy for quite a while.

Micah Riot (25:28):
so yeah, different scenarios different things, but
you know, um and so what wasyour first tattoo that you got
there in the back streets of thered lights?

Skeeter Barker (25:32):
yeah, I know right, it was um first gay bar
ever, the back of my shoulder,and you may have seen it may not
as a very old spider.
Okay, yeah, I think it musthave been on his wall or
something and nice, and I neverhave had.
You know, like how things getincorporated later.
People tattoo around it.
Sometimes people do cover ups.
I've only got one cover up andI, because to me it really is,

(25:57):
it's a map of my life.
I can show you that spider andI can tell you that story.
So I I've never wanted toreally do and I don't love all
my tattoos.
I'm not like, wow, this isgreat, they're faded.
I had friends practice on me.

Micah Riot (26:10):
It's a very different way of getting a body
of work where you came fromversus what's happening now.
People used to do that.
You were kind of a quilt ofthings.

Skeeter Barker (26:20):
Exactly.

Micah Riot (26:20):
Different pieces from different times.
Now people want a comprehensivebody of work.

Skeeter Barker (26:25):
They want a full thought through kind of a yeah
body suit the same stylesrepeating, you know, and it's
just, it's a very differenttrend it is a different trend,
you know, and I also see a lotof the young folks, you know,
doing the sort of stamp tattooswhere they've got, you know, and
it's it's I think I mean I love, I love tattoos.
It's a turn on for me.
I love it.
I love all the different styles.

(26:48):
You know, when it fits a body,when you look at somebody and
they're embodied in a way thatthey're decorating and living in
their body, it's fuckingbeautiful, you know, and
sometimes that's a full colorarm sleeve, sometimes it's a
bunch of stamp tattoos,sometimes it's an old.
You know my current girl lover.
You know she's like she'syounger than me and um tattoo

(27:09):
artist, and when she saw mytattoo she's like, oh yeah, real
, like I think she said ninetiesand I'm like, yeah, this, this
was my era of when I got a lotof my work done.
But I've had a lot more done.
You know, even very recentlywith you Love your work that
you've done.
You know the tattoos on my neck, on my chest, work, on my thigh
.
So you know, I love, yeah, Ijust I think it's a beautiful

(27:32):
form of expression.

Micah Riot (27:33):
It's not everybody's so what was it like to be
heavily tattooed in the world asa butch and a heavily tattooed
person when not a lot of peoplehad them?
I mean as a butch and a haplitattoo person when not a lot of
people had them.
But I guess your world hasalways been like what you wanted
it to be, more or less.

Skeeter Barker (27:51):
Yeah, I mean, I definitely I my early life, I
definitely was.
I had enough of, you know,being feeling on the outside,
being gay, bashed, being youknow, sort of feeling endangered
, you know, in most spaces, andI very quickly found communities
, bubbles of people.

(28:12):
It's one of the reasons I movedto London, it's one of the
reasons I moved to San Francisco.
So, again, the privilege ofbeing able to find community and
you know, back in the eightsand 90s it was definitely there.
It wasn't like I'm not talking,I came out in the 60s and 70s.
I mean I definitely, you know,came out at a time and could
find kink, could find leatherparties, could find leather

(28:34):
people, queer people, otherbutchers, you know, and I don't
know that I felt differentparticularly.
I just felt like, yeah, I justfeel like that's just me, you
know, that's who I am and how Ishow up, and I don't think I've
ever really, in queer community,have experienced any.

(28:59):
I remember once going to LA andwith a girlfriend of mine, very
femme, very beautiful, and wewent to an LA club back in the
day when it was a girlfriend ofmine, very femme, very beautiful
, um, and we went to an LA clubback in the day when it was a
lot of lipstick lesbians and wewalked up to this, the door of
this woman's club like a a adyke bar, and my friend, of
course you know the doorperson's like who was a lipstick
lesbian, big hair.
She's like, oh cause, you know,stephanie's gorgeous.
And she just waltzed throughand then she looked me up and

(29:21):
down.
She goes you can't come in.
I said I'm sorry, what she'slike, you can't come in.
And stephanie came back and shesaid what's up?
I said they won't let me in andI'm like it's a woman diaper,
right, and she's like, yeah, butwe don't you know.
And I said what the fuck?

Micah Riot (29:36):
so I, I went, you didn't go in no, we all left the
whole group.

Skeeter Barker (29:39):
There was a few of us.
We just like fuck you, you knowwow, so you?

Micah Riot (29:44):
there was no, like you just had to leave there.
There was no.
We talked to the manager.

Skeeter Barker (29:49):
No, because I didn't want to walk into a place
where and stephanie did notwant to walk into a place where
we and you know, I don't knowwhat it was like inside, I
didn't get inside, but maybe ifit was a bunch of people like
the woman on the door, Iremember going to a Dinosaur
weekend because I was doing somekind of work thing there and it
was just like wow, like a verydifferent type of lesbian scene,
and in those environments overthe years I felt like, wow, I'm

(30:13):
sort of an outlier, which didn'tmake me feel bad about myself.
I was just like, wow, this isnot my people.
And I think being queer, beinghowever you describe yourself it
doesn't mean that everywhereyou go in queer community or gay
community or whatever it's like, you don't always feel like, oh
, these are my people.

Micah Riot (30:34):
And then you know, I feel like our queer culture
shifted to there being like aworship of the mask, like the
masculine person, the butch, thetrans mask person, Like.
When do you think that shiftoccurred?

Skeeter Barker (31:05):
Well, when I really feel like I remember
things happening because thesame incident I'm talking about
in LA what was happening in SanFrancisco was, you know, we had
the bearded lady, we had, youknow, some clubs, and then the
lexington opened and veryclearly, in fact, at first the
lexington and you know leila whoopened it um, and a lot of us
started going early on, it wasvery much I wouldn't say
predominantly, but heavily ladenwith butch femme.
That was the vibe, you know, itwas incredible, it was lovely.

(31:28):
I've since talked to people andsaid, yeah, I walked in and
didn't feel I fit.
So, you know, if we fit in thebubble, we feel great, if we
don't, we don't.
But then this interesting thinghappened.
So there was this celebration ofbutches and masks.
But then several of my solidbutch friends started
transitioning and so early on,and I think that there was this

(31:50):
sort of time where people whoreally had felt like you know,
I'm not in the body that I needto be in, I'm not, you know and
there was access in SanFrancisco to not in the body
that I need to be in, I'm not,you know and there was access in
San Francisco to tea and tosurgery and to other communities

(32:14):
and to professionals here whopeople could transition.
But then there was this weirdstage, I feel like, and I
noticed it and I can only sortof pinpoint it really to this
micro world in the Lexingtonwhere so many young butchers
started just taking tea, havingthe tits cut off, but it became
almost like it became a littlebit the thing to do and Bear

(32:38):
agrees with you, bear, my dog,agrees with me and then, for
example, boy Sue, who was my boyfor quite a while, beautiful,
amazing, intelligent person waslike we started to get to know
each other and they were in theworld of that as a young, you
know, butch and and one of theconversations I remember having
and with two people and likesomething's like.

(32:59):
I feel like I have to like.
I don't feel like there's analternative, like it's.
It's almost like a this is whatwe do now as a young butch, I
have to like.
I don't feel like there's analternative.
Like it's.
It's almost like a this is whatwe do now as a young butch.
I have to then start taking teaand I was like wow, is that is
that true?
Is that like?
And one of the things I startedto notice was less and less were
there slightly older, and atthat point I'm talking you know,

(33:21):
forties butch is visible.
You know, forties, um Butch isvisible, you know, and certainly
not older than me um, in thesepublic spaces.
And so I think there was a sortof a little bit of the mix of
celebrating people findingthemselves in their bodies and
really just that pride in thatand like the Transmarch and it

(33:42):
really growing into thisbeautiful celebration and a
little level of, maybe a lot oflevel of grieving.
Um, that happened.
You know, I've femme women whoare like, you know, my partner's
transitioning and they became,they felt, even more invisible
but also really wanting tocelebrate their partner, and I

(34:04):
think that I feel like there wasa bit of grieving for me that I
lost quite a lot of butchfriends in that way and gained
trans, you know friends, transmen friends.
But it was and and both.
I have to be really honestabout it.
And there was a moment in thattime where there almost felt a
little bit of competition andfriction between trans men and

(34:26):
butchers.
You know, I had conversationswith butchers who were like I
don't feel butch enough now Ifeel like I have to.
You know, I'm not enough orsomething.
And you know trans men who werestruggling with being accepted
into queer spaces, you know,like dyke spaces, because they
were starting to feel like theywere not included.

(34:48):
So it was a moment in time, Ithink.
I think if you could sort of putit under a microscope and go
this moment in time in SanFrancisco where something
started really shifting and Ithink we've come a long way of
like community and celebrationand there's space for everybody
and we all get to, you know, um,explore what we want.

(35:08):
But I think that's whenever Isee especially older butch women
, I'm like hey, you know, um,and just always want to be sort
of role model in some ways foryounger butch women who are like
that trans is not my journey,and I see you living a life and
having the things you want andrepresenting yourself in the

(35:29):
world.
So to me, the pronouns of she,her are really important.
Yeah, so I just think it's achanged world and I think that
you know it's really about justwe're not in competition and you
know we're in celebration ofeach other because, like you
said, there's fewer of us and wejust we really need.
We cannot have that kind ofdifference.

(35:49):
You know that tearing apart,but it was a moment in time
where it was very, um, it feltthat way.
My experience, yeah, you know.

Micah Riot (35:57):
So I wanted to offer you my experience, which was a
little different.
Coming out of college in 2006,um, having gone to college in
ohio for a bit of a more oldschool place, you know very,
very queer college and kind ofbeing there and being like, okay
, there's different kinds offolks here.
There's butch people, there'strans people here, like young,

(36:20):
so nobody was like fullytransitioned or like there were
some that were starting to.
But as I was coming into myqueerness I realized that only
was attracted to masculinepeople, only butches, and the
butches that I had crushes onwould be like bro, you're my bro
.
Like this is not that's too gayfor me, like it was always like
an issue you know Too gay yeah.

(36:40):
Like for them.
It just was unthinkable thatbutch on butch could be.
I wasn't that butch, but I was,you know, dressing masculine
and kind of presenting masculine.
And so what I saw was thatthere were trans guys with trans
guys and so.
I was like, if I want to be witha masculine person who was born
female, I have to go the transroute.

(37:02):
Yeah, and for me, love andrelationships were always so
important.
I was so taught from the veryearly age that that's like the
epitome of happiness and Ireally internalized that not
just from my family but alsofrom like movies and books and
stuff.
Um, that I was like, okay, Iand that's not to say that my
gender isn't true, you know thatmy experimentation with
testosterone wasn't true, thatmy desire say that my gender
isn't true.

(37:23):
You know that myexperimentation with
testosterone wasn't true, thatmy desire to have chest surgery
isn't true.
But, like in that early stagesI was like, okay, if I want to
be mask on mask, I have to, Ihave to be trans.

Skeeter Barker (37:35):
Wow.

Micah Riot (37:35):
And so I started binding and I started dating
trans guys.

Skeeter Barker (37:39):
Yeah.

Micah Riot (37:39):
And I moved to San Francisco and I was in the trans
guy community but I was neverlike I took T for a while.
I never could imagine like howI would ever have the money to
have chest surgery and I wasn'tready for it then.

Skeeter Barker (37:51):
I think, that's around the time I started to
meet you, wasn't it?

Micah Riot (37:55):
You were sort of in more of the.
It was right after.
So I took T for about a year.
I was on a low dose.
It did some things things, butnot enough to like even pass as
a man and I didn't want to pass.
I always felt in between yeahyou know, but I um met idexa and
I dated idexa for a year and Iwas like this person is very
gender fluid, quite non-binary,older, masculine, but still

(38:19):
plays with like femmeaccessories or like, yeah,
different energies.
If, if this person can do that,I can do that.
And so I got off of tea becausebeing on tea didn't feel quite
right.
I'm glad I experimented and I'mglad it did what it did for me,
but it didn't feel quite rightso I got off of it because of
because of her.

Skeeter Barker (38:37):
Yeah.

Micah Riot (38:38):
Because I saw that you could exist and live your
life as a kind of a fluid,non-binary queer person and have
sex with all kinds of people.
I mean, I'd actually wasn'tvery discriminatory, um,
although I think she probably ismore masculine as far as, like,
her interests go, but yeah, shekind of was like whatever's hot
she would try to get at it.
Yeah, um, but so for me it wassuch a thing connected to who I

(39:01):
could love, who I was allowed tolove, and without being trans,
I could not find another mascperson who would be into me.

Skeeter Barker (39:11):
That's such an interesting perspective, I mean
obviously Very different fromyou.

Micah Riot (39:15):
Very different from what I mean different, slightly
different era, different,totally.
This is like 2006 to 2010.

Skeeter Barker (39:23):
These, like four years, is what I'm talking
about in that time frame, butfascinating to sort of hear from
you on that sort of inside ofthat you know.
I think that you know often weonly ever have our own
experience of it.
And one of the things I doreally love about this sort of
you know, the younger, queerkids is like the language that
has been exploded now you knowthe language that has been.

(39:45):
It's exploded now, you know,and it's like that sort of the
fluidity of it is so much, givesso much freedom to people to
not have to.
You know, walk into that barand like are you going to sit at
the bar, are you going to sitat the table?
You know where?
Are you butch?
Are you trans?
Like you know?
Do you feel enough?
I love?
You know I'm old school, so Iam what I am.
I'm butch.
I'm like you know, I'm a butchwoman.
I'm proud of who I am.
I walk through this world, butI've had time and opportunity to

(40:12):
see other things and make thatdecision for myself.
But I do love the fluidity andI do love the.
I was reading an article theother day where somebody was
saying that they're seasonalgendered, where it's like
different seasons, they feeldifferent gendered, so it's like
it's autumn, so I feel moremasculine.
I was like, wow, you know.
So I do appreciate language andI do appreciate people's um
being able to really define whothey are, but also as we take

(40:32):
meaning out of clothing.

Micah Riot (40:34):
You know, clothing is just clothing, like it isn't
necessarily masculine orfeminine, it's just whatever
right seeing men, straight men,in the media wear pearls as a
trend of earrings, like it'sbeen really exciting for me to
like see it.
It seems kind of also basic,like of course men can wear
earrings, yeah, but I remember,like you know, with with my
jewelry being like I have to getmy ears stretched, I have to,

(40:56):
not that I mean I wanted to, butit was kind of like this is the
masculine way to wear jewelry,this is how I can decorate
myself, but in a way that's nottoo feminine.
And now, like those things arelosing their meaning in a good
way.

Skeeter Barker (41:07):
I think, you know, I think that people can
dress.
I mean, it's funny being, likeI said, sort of.
I try not to.
I always want to be open and,you know, explore and I hope to
always keep growing and beingaround people that always push
me to grow, you know, and I hopeto always keep growing and
being around people that alwayspush me to grow.
You know, and I sometimes I'mlike is it just that I know

(41:28):
clearly who I am and for me,putting on dangly earrings or
pearls does not feel comfortable, or is it that I'm so stuck in
this kind of stone butch way oflike this is how I have to show
up, you know.
So I'm always challengingmyself on that and you know,
sort of is clothing being aperfect example?

(41:50):
You know, sort of is, would Iwear that or would I not wear it
?
And if I don't want to wear it,why?
You know it's like I'm watchingmy son grow.
You know it's interestingbecause he's, you know he's
clearly presenting as as male inthe world and talks about that
with all the choices.
I'm straight, I'm like great,it's all good, you know, but I
also see different ways that hewill wear things or do things

(42:12):
and I go.
That's really, really greatbecause you know that might not
be have been masculine in theway that I would have thought
about it.

Micah Riot (42:20):
So I just love that.

Skeeter Barker (42:21):
I love it, for you know that exploration would
have thought about it.

Micah Riot (42:24):
So I just love that.
I love it, for you know thatexploration.
And so with the new generationof folks, how are you feeling
about?
I've had the.
I've had the feeling thatqueerness is being co-opted
completely.
So how are you feeling withthat?

Skeeter Barker (42:39):
I mean, you know it's such a tricky subject for
me because I don't want to begatekeepy at all.
You know, I live my life theway I want to live it.
I surround myself with people Iwant to surround myself with.
I love the way that I getreflected back who I am, by my

(43:00):
lovers or by friends people inmy life, by my lovers or by
friends people in my life so.
But it is a struggle sometimewhen it's like.
Like where I work, for example,mr S Leathers, we've got about a
hundred employees and incertain departments, you know,
there are a bunch of young queerfolks and they are dressing how

(43:20):
they want, they are pronouninghow it's beautiful, but it's
like they're queer, and then youknow it's a, a cis woman
presenting female, theyfantastic, queer, fantastic.
And then you know they come tothe christmas party, whatever,
with their very male cis husbandand I'm like so, and in talking

(43:48):
to people more and askingquestions, this is the thing we
don't ask questions, right?
Queer, I think, has become aword to me, my understanding of
it.
I've reclaimed dyke for myself,because for a while I was, you
know, lesbian and I was queerand I was gay and I've been all
the things Dyke for me is theone that sticks, because queer,
I think now is anynon-conventional relationship.

(44:12):
I'm shaking my head for thosewho are not in the room with us,
yeah, but it's like, if you'regoing to make a stand, like if
you call yourself queer andyou're in a non-conventional
relationship, you're poly,you're, you know, sleep with,
fuck with whoever, you're, kinky, whatever.

(44:33):
If you are going to take astand for me, if you are going
to go against the grain for me,for you know, then I've got to
claim you as my people.
But do they?
Well, that's, that's always thetest.
That's always the test, becauseif these two people that I'm
talking about and you know, walkout in the world and safely

(44:56):
passes straight and choose thatprivilege within their family
groups, within their, and neversay a word and never say a word
and never say a word.
But then in queer spaces theyare, like you know, presenting
queer.
That's a whole other thing,because you now are using the
privilege and co-opting that.
But in the world I'm not safeto walk into a gas station in
the middle of nowhere, my femmepartner or my you know butch

(45:20):
friend or my you know queerlover, we don't have that safety
.
So if you don't have my backwhen you pass and you choose to
pass, then yeah, that that hasme really questioning.
Then I think that's where theco-option and the that's what
gets me kind of upset.
But I'm also have to keepexpanding my views on what queer

(45:42):
looks like.
I do I do have to keepexpanding my views on what queer
looks like.
I do I do, because if I stopexpanding my view on what queer
is like, then I'm saying listen,this is what queer is.
I grew up in queer, I knowqueer, my queer is the correct
queer and it's so.
What I did is I chose anotherword I'm dyke, I'm a butch dyke.

Micah Riot (46:00):
yeah, I hear that language.
That Language is malleable.
It keeps growing.
But, as I hear, I heard DanSavage say on one of his
podcasts recently.
He said something on the linesof like I think he was talking
about the word queer and he waslike language is so that we can
understand each other.
Like people just make things up, they just add meanings to

(46:20):
language.
Then it stops to mean the thingit meant.
Like how we was supposed tocommunicate.
He said in a different way.
It was really precise and smart.
He's very eloquent.
He is very eloquent, but I waslike dude, and maybe you know
it's.
I'm also.
I'm 40, like I'm getting tothat age where I'm like
crotchety a little bit, you know.
But, um, I had these twointeractions, one in person, one
online, and the one online waswith a creator who's a

(46:43):
polyamorous creator, who's a ciswoman, has male lovers.
I believe she identifies asqueer, but she's talking about
having sex with her male loverand how queer the sex is she's a
cis woman with a cis man lover.
I think most of herrelationships are with cis men.
She talks about only cis men.
Really, I've seen her talkabout only them.
And she's talking about thequeer sex she's having with her

(47:03):
cis male lover because she feelslike the sex they're having is
expansive and not typical and Iwas like you just fucking own it
, that it's straight and justlike you're having straight sex
and maybe he's putting pantieson and you're strapping it on,
but it's still straight sex.
It could be subversive it couldbe interesting, but why do you

(47:23):
have to call it queer?
And I said something, you know,and a bunch of queer people
liked what I said and a bunch ofstraight people put me down and
I moved on.
I followed her or whateverSocial media, social media,
whatever you know, but Icouldn't walk past it because I
was like you, as a queer,identifying person are doing a
thing that feels very painful tothose of us who are actually
gay.

(47:43):
There's harm Like we didn'treclaim this word so that
straight people can just nowtake it and like, use it to look
cool, to like look different,look more interesting.
I don't know what they're doing.
But and then another person andat least this woman identifies
as queer.
So at least there's that.
But another person I talked toin person who is a client of
mine and she, you know, in herwhole history of knowing each

(48:05):
other, you know, I'd asked herearly on.
I was like are you, are youqueer?
I know she's married to a man,has kids says man and she said,
um no, not really, yeah, notreally, you know.
But you know I'm reallyopen-minded, whatever it's like,
okay, and so she's telling meabout how in her she goes to

(48:29):
conferences.
Yeah, she goes to queer spacesin these conferences and I was
like trying to like, gently, belike why do you go to queer
spaces?
Yeah, and she basically it wasa really convoluted conversation
, it was hard, it wasn't verystraightforward, so it's kind of
hard for me to understand,because I'm trying to be gentle
and not gatekeepy, but alsogently be like are you queer?
Like did you change your mind?
And she's essentially tellingme that she identifies queerness
is about not being in a box,that it's more.
It's more of a queer theory,queer like the bending of time

(48:51):
and space and identity.
But I was like so are youopening your relationship with
your husband because you want toexplore things with, like,
queer people and women,non-binary people, trans people?
And she's like well, I couldhave sex with just about anybody
.
I mean, everyone's beautiful.
And I was like that's not whatI'm asking, right?
And it was so frustratingbecause I was like this isn't

(49:11):
what queerness is like.
The spaces you go to as anon-queer person, those queer
people want to.
They want to be with each other.
Like we want to be together ifwe're at a therapy conference.
We might be processingsomething difficult and we want
to be together if we're at atherapy conference.

Skeeter Barker (49:23):
We might be processing something difficult
we want to understand the wordand the meaning of yes being a
safe space and we want to bewith each other like we like to
be safe in safe.

Micah Riot (49:33):
That's why we have queer spaces, so that people who
are living a life that is umwrought with difficulty can come
together and feel safe.
And you're kind of messing thatup for us.

Skeeter Barker (49:44):
I think that's why, for me, the word queer has
become something I don't reallyuse for myself because I think
it's gotten so murky.
Yeah, and you know, it's notlike I don't I have to, you know
, again from from an era and itit still happens.
In many parts of the world welive in bubbles, but you know, I
have had my nose fractured bysomebody hitting me in the face

(50:05):
for being a dyke.
I've, you know, I've sort ofhad so many fights, you know
where somebody's yelling at myfemme girlfriend, they just need
dick, I mean all of the stuffthat you know thrown out of
places.
You know I've been through thestruggle in places, places where
I had to fight and my, you know, people had to fight, um, and

(50:26):
it has not felt safe.
And there are many places still, even in this country, where I,
if I'm on a cross country trip,I airport bathrooms fucking
hard as a mask person.
I sometimes go into the malebathroom because they don't look
, and I've I've had people runout of the bathrooms and a
boyfriend running like what areyou doing?

(50:50):
Like, what are you doing inhere?
I think that it's.
I'm not.
It's not like everybody has tostruggle to be able to claim a
label.
You know what I mean.

Micah Riot (50:53):
It's not like, but it comes with the struggle, but
you have to understand having todo it.

Skeeter Barker (50:56):
It just comes with it I think that you have to
understand.
And then there you said earlier, there's like this connection
through hard times, trauma, youknow, like when you're in queer
space, you know like, orwhatever, you know, butch space,
dyke space, queer space, gayspace, you know, trans space.

(51:18):
And I mean my co-partner is,you know, black woman and
there's a really clear likethere are times where she just
needs to be around black womenand it doesn't mean that I, as
her partner, have a right towalk into no, so I think that
the reason we did, richelle andI, we started saying queer, you
know, queer women retreats.

(51:38):
But it got murky, because whatdoes that mean?
Are trans men welcome?

Micah Riot (51:49):
Certainly trans women are welcome because it's
queer women space.
But yeah, we can go back tothat, we can go back to that
conversation.
But that's kind of half of theretreat was kind of cool with
that and half wasn't.

Skeeter Barker (51:53):
It started confused it started changing,
you know and I think one of thereasons we haven't done one for
a while is because there therewas that division starting to
happen.
But what I'm saying is it'slike there there is importance
in people having spaces thatthey can feel, clearly
understood dynamics and safetyyourself at that basic level,

(52:15):
right, and you don't have tomisinterpret somebody and get
into this kind of vulnerablespace or hookup space or
whatever and and you're like, oh, oh you, you sleep with cis
dudes.

Micah Riot (52:27):
Yeah.

Skeeter Barker (52:27):
Or you're a straight woman who's
experimenting with you know, adyke Like no, that's not what I,
I didn't, I'm, no, I'm notdoing that.
So I, I hear you, but for me,my path queer, it's great out
there.
I tend not to refer to itmyself because it's not clear

(52:48):
enough for myself or for people.
These days.

Micah Riot (52:49):
You know it's funny when you were talking about the
definitions of queer women forthe retreat, I had one
experience there of not quitehooking up but getting into that
space with a woman who wasbisexual.
I think a friend of hersbrought her and I think she only
came that one time but we werelaying on that.
Remember that big hammock?

(53:10):
Oh, I remember Covered in ablanket.

Skeeter Barker (53:12):
I remember that.

Micah Riot (53:13):
I remember that Slightly touching each other
under the blanket and I was likethis is super hot.
And she was bisexual.
I mean by curious, I don't knowwhat she was, but it didn't go
anywhere.
But I was like, I mean, I wasyoung, I didn't, it didn't
matter to me, you know but I waslike, oh, maybe she's not
actually like gay, you know,cause she was willing to just

(53:35):
like take a little little steptowards a queer hookup, but not
not really jump into it, not tosay that maybe it was, she was
not into me or you know whoknows.
But I was just like, well, youremember that moment.

Skeeter Barker (53:48):
I do, I remember , I remember seeing you on the
hammock.
Do you know who?

Micah Riot (53:51):
I'm talking about yes, I don't remember her name,
or?

Skeeter Barker (53:53):
anything but I remember her face.
She was like a cute littlefemme.
Yeah, a lot of my butch friends, mass friends, trans friends
who love the challenge ofsleeping with a straight woman
who's curious, not me, not me,not me, because I'm not trying
to be somebody's experiment, no,like, I tend to lean more into

(54:13):
stone butch, so it's not evenabout a woman, you know.
But I, there are so manyfucking dykes, I, there are so

(54:34):
many fucking dykes.
Queer, let's say queer women,gay women, clearly loving being
queer, dyke, gay, lesbian,whatever the word.
There are so many and I love itand I I'm not trying to be
someone's experiment, I don'twant to be yeah, I just don't.
I love queerness in that way.
When I'm saying like lesbian,dyke, queer, gay, that's a huge
hot switch for me.
However, like, whether you'representing, you know, mask or
you're femme, if you're like,you know, loving women, I'm down

(54:59):
, yeah, but I'm not trying to do.
You know, it's not sounds awfulto say I'm not saying if I
would, I, yeah, but I'm nottrying to do.
I, you know it's not.
Sounds awful to say I'm notsaying if I would, I sleep with
a bisexual woman.
I mean, I have and, but I might, but it's just.

Micah Riot (55:10):
I feel very clearly like yeah, what's your response
to some bisexuals coming at yougoing well, that's biphobic,
right?
Exactly?
What's your response to that?
And I, I don't.

Skeeter Barker (55:19):
I'm not agreeing with them, I'm just saying, I
just think it's like I get tochoose where and when I spend
time with my body and someoneelse's body.
Yeah, and I just there's linesI draw.
I will celebrate you, I willmarch for you, I will have your
back, I will, you know, protestagainst laws.
You know, I love it, I love thefreedom of it, I love that's

(55:45):
your life.
And there are, but I,personally, I, yeah, I'm not
trying to, you know, and I'vetalked to a lot of bi women who
are like, yeah, but it's notlike we're just, you know, if
you're in a monogamousrelationship with somebody, it's
like, well, I choose, I likemen and women, so I'm choosing
you as a woman, I'm hot for you,this is what I'm doing, this is

(56:06):
the relationship I'm in.
It's not like any more thananother fully queer lover is
going to be like there's anotherwoman over there, right, right,
but I just, I don't really wantto be God.
It sounds awful.
I don't really want to besharing a bed with a cis man on
any level in my life.
I don't really want to besharing a bed with a cis man on
any level in my life.

(56:26):
So if someone is sexuallyactive with cis men, bless it,
love it.

Micah Riot (56:33):
And that's you know.
Say the thing out loud thatpeople don't say it, cause I
hear you and you know, if it hadbeen on paper, like had I like,
right, my partner, like love ofmy life, like the person I
totally see myself with till Idie, has a male partner of like
20 years, shares a bed with him.
I don't know how much sex theyhave I think they have some here

(56:54):
and there but it's like had itbeen on paper somewhere and I
would have been like, do I gofor this?
I've been like fuck, no, I fellin love with somebody.
I fell in love with somebody.
I fell in love with somebody.
This is the person I've ever.
You know who's been the bestfor me.
I've ever had the best to meand the best for me.
And this is where we're at andit is what it is.
And, like you know, for so longI struggled with that being

(57:15):
like you could be with me allthe time, but you're choosing to
be with him half the time, likewhy, yeah, you know.
And now I'm just like life islife, this is her karma, this is
her family, like this is theperson she chooses to like yeah
you know, be her family like.

Skeeter Barker (57:28):
This is not a business, it's not about me who
you, who you crush on and whoyou fall in love with and who
you like.
I mean my girl, fucking hot asshit, kinky as shit.
We have beyond.
I mean it's it great she's apussy loving queer, right, but I
love the fact that she's so.
It's not about creating a lifewith family.

(57:49):
I have a 15 year old son.
She has a life partner whoshe's raising kids with and I
just I respect that completely,you know, but you know so it's
not about not having men cis menin your life.
One of my jobs in London when Iwas a young dyke was I worked
at a strip club where I would bethe person to go clean up the
little booths after they jerkedoff oh, cleaning off the mirror.

(58:12):
And at Mr S I go in the changer.
I mean, I'm so close to men'sbodies, yeah.
Like I'm measuring their cockand balls for like a sex toy, or
I'm trying to figure out a buttplug harness for them, and I
have huge respect and love formen and their bodies.
I love for men and their bodies.
I mean I make stuff for them.

Micah Riot (58:27):
But I don't need to.
That's so true.
You're very intimate with men'sbodies, very intimate.

Skeeter Barker (58:30):
But I don't need to be closer than that.
Yeah, and that's my choice.
Yeah, and it's not.
I think the problem is when youstart to say things in this era
where people want to, thensaying that I'm saying I, at
this point in my life.
These are choices for you andyour body and your safety.

(58:52):
Absolutely, and I love it forother people that they get to
make choices.
I love the freedom but I'mmaking my choices and these are
the choices I'm making.
And for most dykes I know,especially a stone, you know,
butch dyke, the gold star,whatever you know.
You know, butch Dyke, the goldstar, whatever you know label
you want to put on it.

(59:12):
I have more intimate contactwith men's bodies than anyone
else.
I know Right and so and I,because I have the line that I
have, because I've never had asexual attraction to a guy, I
can do that with utmost respectand joy without having any weird
feelings about it.
Like some of the people, themost incredible, the straight
women.
When I listen to my sistersometimes and she'll say

(59:34):
something, or straight women Iknow about, like this sort of
disparaging thing, I'm like, wow, you know, I have nothing but
respect for it.

Micah Riot (59:43):
I don't need to get close to it.
It's like you know people womenwho are straight will be like
God.
I wish I was a lesbian.
It'd be so much easier.
Like no, the people who you'revulnerable to are the people who
hurt you.
If you like men, they will hurtyou.
If you like women, they willhurt you.
Like you will have things tosay about whatever gender you
like.
It's not easier.
It's.

(01:00:11):
But there's also an and.
For a lot of us queer dykes,lesbians, women loving women,
giving it a big circle aroundthat whole category like there's
an innate respect of womanhoodand women's bodies and being
raised as female we just likeknow, yeah, I feel like a little
bit more about it.
Um, so that they really have tobe really bad for us to talk
shit you know yeah yeah, I meanlike the straight women who are

(01:00:32):
saying shit about men.
It's like yeah basically kind ofshitty.
Sometimes, like I get it, notall men, but a lot of them, and
and women too.

Skeeter Barker (01:00:40):
I mean god, well right, women too.
Some very toxic relationshipsand very toxic people out there
in the diet community as well.
I mean it's not.
None of us are sort of immunefrom it's, just people being
people.
But I do think that we get tochoose who our intimates are and
where the safe spaces are andthe vulnerable spaces.
And I think you know, as abutch woman and I obviously in
many, many conversations withbutch women and mask people

(01:01:02):
where our bodies are.
You know it's a guessing game,it's hard, I mean I, you know
it's a guessing game, it's hard,I mean I.
Actually the couple of butchlovers I've had I was having
this conversation the other daywith my girl it's like the
couple of butch lovers I've had,I felt much freer to do like
things sexual acts, you know,sort of like, because it's butch
on butch, whereas often overthe years with femmes it's like,

(01:01:24):
um, it's sort of a minefield,right, it's like.
I have so much respect for fanswho have navigated and navigate
this minefield all the time ofbutch bodies like can I touch
your chest, you know, can Itouch your?
Can I say pussy?
You know, do I, because youknow they're loving women and

(01:01:44):
women's bodies, but they have tobe very delicate around and it
changes every day.

Micah Riot (01:01:49):
So how do you feel like you do that with other
butch people?
You feel like it's easier foryou, I think it's been a while,
but I think that it's.

Skeeter Barker (01:01:55):
It felt, I think , cause we're, there's a,
there's a commonality with the.
You're not being trans, so I'mnot.
I don't struggle about being ina woman's body because it's the
one I want to be in, but itdoesn't mean that the way that
we've been seen in the world,our bodies have been
disrespected or we've been, youknow so there's not a huge,

(01:02:17):
there hasn't been a huge loveand respect of us walking
through the world with thesemasculine bodies, you know so.
I think that when, yeah, it'sjust, it's just weird, it's
strange.
I think it's a minefield forourselves, you know, every day,
and also for our lovers, and soI have a deep appreciation for
anyone that can navigate thatwith me, with us, in a way that
they're like using language,asking questions being bold,

(01:02:39):
yeah, you know, like clearlyexpressing desire um in a way
that creates safe space.
You know to to be what feelsvulnerable, you know.

Micah Riot (01:02:50):
So yeah, I mean, our bodies are so connected to
trauma, right, and so manypeople have trauma, like it's so
common, that I feel like Ican't assume anything about
anybody, anyone's body, right.
But you're right, like it seemslike a more natural thing to,
like, touch the chest of a femmeperson, assuming they're
comfortable with it.
But they might be.
No, absolutely because of trauma, not because of gender

(01:03:11):
absolutely gender and trauma andjust there's intersections,
yeah, so I feel like that's, Ithink, why there's also a lot of
people who are a lot of youngpeople who are choosing to
forego gender altogether and,yeah, just kind of be like I'm a
gender or I am asexual, becauseI don't want to deal with the
trauma and the body and thecomplications surrounding all of
that.

Skeeter Barker (01:03:30):
No, you're right , I mean everybody.
You know, hopefully, anytimeyou're being sexual and touching
somebody, that you've there'ssome agreements and consent laid
down at the beginning that youknow you can.
But just because someone's in afemme body doesn't mean that
they love having their chestcalled breast and touched.
I mean, of course, you knowthere's always that sensitivity

(01:03:50):
and I think that it's just adance.
It's a dance and why I lovekink is because I think that
there are different avenues, somany different avenues to get to
that sort of hot intimacy,versus often in non kink there's
only certain avenues you'regoing to get there.
You know what I mean.
There are only certain bodyavenues you're going to get
there.
You know there's only certainbody parts you're going to touch
in certain ways.

(01:04:11):
However creative you are withkink there's so many more
dynamics or sort of, you know,power dynamics and physical
dynamics and psychologicaldynamics.
That really it's a, it's aplaying field.
It's such a good point and Ilove it yeah, I think that it's.
Yeah, you can learn a lot aboutsomebody you know in kink and

(01:04:32):
sometimes it's not sexualnecessarily like you were
talking about with piercing anda lot of other podcasts, um, so
I think it's just, it's a biggerplaying field, yeah, which I
think that a lot of people don'thave, um, for whatever reasons.
I wish, I wish people had ityeah, people don't.

Micah Riot (01:04:48):
They think of it as like the scary dark thing, that
dungeon with like chains.

Skeeter Barker (01:04:52):
Like pain.
It can be so many things Likepain doesn't.

Micah Riot (01:04:55):
pain doesn't need to be a part of it at all, Not at
all.

Skeeter Barker (01:04:57):
Sex doesn't need to be a part of it.
Pain doesn't have to be a partof it.
Dark dungeons don't have to bea part of it.
Tailor-made, yeah.
Tailor-made, yeah.

Micah Riot (01:05:06):
Made to measure, yeah I'll get my tape measure
out, that's right.
Um, how has we'll bring it back?
Tattoos how has uh beingtattooed has?
Has a connection to your.
Which identity is stoneidentity?
You're like differentintersections of identity, kinky
person identity that you'veheld throughout your years, I

(01:05:27):
mean absolutely.

Skeeter Barker (01:05:29):
I think that taking my, the body of a woman
and I was clear, I've neverquestioned that I am trans, want
to be trans, clearly, in awoman's body, but that doesn't
mean that it's a completelycomfortable place for me to be.
I used to have really, really,really big chest, really big

(01:05:50):
breasts, and I had reduction.
I didn't, and this was early on.
This was like in the ninetiesin San Francisco.
A lot of people were startingto have, you know, their tits
removed and it was never.
It was never that for me.
But they needed to be a lotsmaller.
They were lovely, but theyweren't mine.
Yeah, be a lot smaller.

(01:06:13):
They were lovely, but theyweren't mine.
And then tattooing has justgiven me the opportunity to
claim my body in the way that Iwant, to map my life in the way
I want to.
And I do think for myself thatmy body, when I look in a mirror
, it represents more of thatsort of, yeah, masculine butch.
You know, and it's funnybecause you know, I know a lot

(01:06:34):
of femmes who've got fingertattoos and they look beautiful.
They've got the nails, they'vegot the finger tattoos.
It's hot.
And then I look at my fingersthat are tattooed and my hands
that are tattooed, and to meit's a different.
It's butch hands, yeah.
So I love that it's changed,though you know it's like, if
I'm sworn, doing that in the 90s, this is new.
That was more of a butch thingto eat in Uccleston, you know,

(01:06:55):
and I, just as you talked aboutin the last, one of the last
podcasts, when you were actuallytalking to my girl, you know we
had the daddy girl tattooswhere I have the key and she has
the padlock, and it's like um,tattoos where I have a key and
she has a padlock, and it's likethere are tattoos on my body
that have that represent a timewith somebody.
And as we talked you and metalked about earlier, before

(01:07:17):
this we started recording, isthat you, I never want to throw
anything away If somebody hasbeen significant in my life and
maybe we see each other, maybewe don't, maybe we're family now
, maybe we're not, but there's astory of them in my heart, and
so when I put that on my bodyand I could point to several
tattoos on my body that are forsomebody or for a time with

(01:07:38):
somebody, and so I think for meit's just reclaiming my body,
making my body, my own and also,yeah, so I think the tattoos
are.
It's almost like I don't I'musing a lot of words, but I
don't necessarily have the wordsfor how it feels to have them
and I love you as a tattooist.

(01:07:59):
I mean, I love you anyway,Micah, but as a tattoo artist.
I think your skillset isincredible.
I love everything you've put onmy body and I love the way that
you see me and that you I'vecome in.
I'm like I think I just wantsmall letters on my knuckles.
You know, no, no, we're goingbig.
You know, you change thedirection of the thing on my
neck every single time you havedone a tattoo on my body and I

(01:08:23):
change my mind all the time.
I have adhd.
I come in for this, I get this.
I change all the time.
Um, as aiden said the other day, she goes you must be a
nightmare for a client.
I'm like, because you, but you,you work really really well
with me and every single time,because you see me and I feel
seen by you, the tattoo becomessomething that maybe I didn't
walk in with the idea of, but Iwalk out being like damn, this

(01:08:47):
looks good.

Micah Riot (01:08:48):
I'm so happy to hear that.
Oh my gosh, it's incredible.
I really love the rope.

Skeeter Barker (01:08:53):
Yeah, that one was a.
That was a good one, wasn't it?

Micah Riot (01:08:56):
I love it.
There's a very uh, there's avery deep butchness in that.
Like that we were talking about, like being in a kind of a
there's the red lights districtand the tattoo shop in the back
and the what gay bar and likethis, this, this is what that
reminds me of.
I guess like that, like yourbeginnings there.

Skeeter Barker (01:09:12):
The anchor and the rope.
I mean because you know, my dadwas in the Navy and I was in a
naval town, but so, yeah, thereis definitely that and you know
the knot, the rope, I mean it.
Yeah, just thinking about myother hand now.
But thank you for being who youare in the world because, just
like you said at the beginning,people had access to yoga
because of how I looked and whoI was, and I think that coming

(01:09:35):
to you as who you are in theworld, to be tattooed by you, to
walk in, feel seen, there'sjust a deep because it's a
vulnerable spot to be tattooedby somebody and I really, really
appreciate you.

Micah Riot (01:09:53):
I think you play a very important role in the in
the world of tattoos.
Thank you for saying that.
That's very kind, I mean it.
What's the future of yourtattoo work?
Well, what do you see whenyou're, like, on your deathbed?
What do you do you havesignificantly?
Do you have more plans that youknow of?
Or it's just kind of like we'regoing.
I mean, I know that you'll textme.

(01:10:14):
You'll be like oh, I think Ithink I want this piece over
here and I think I want to dothis over here, and maybe we'll
finish the belly piece at somepoint.
Maybe we won't, but like youknow you'll, you'll have your
ideas, they'll pop up and you'lltell me about them.
But, like, do you have somesort of plan?

Skeeter Barker (01:10:27):
no, no no, I never have done.
I think that, um, I get an ideaand exactly like I might be in
a moment in my life.
I might be in a relationship inmy life where I'm like that's
gonna mark that time in my lifeand I want that I might change
it.
You know, I really want mythigh hip piece finish with with
all the water, because there'sa that is is a full piece.

(01:10:48):
There's fire on the other one.
That balance for me issomething, but it's.
I get this spontaneous, like Iwant a key, I want to lock, I
want to this, I want that word,I want my hand done.
There's definitely more tattoosin my future.
Yeah, and I don't know whatthey're all going to be.
And yeah, so going to be.

(01:11:09):
And yeah, so I don't know.
I don't know what it'll looklike when I'm laying on my death
bed and okay, we'll all be verybeautiful.
Yeah, all of us that areheavily tattooed will be like
the sistine chapel I know, andit's a temple.
It's interesting because youknow that whole japanese art of
more I don't believe it'sjapanese, but that was the piece
I was reading about that wherethey take the skin and they make
they, they dry it and they makeart.
Do they do that?
Yeah, are you allowed to dothat with human skin?

(01:11:30):
I don't know whether it'ssomething that, I don't know.
I just remember reading anarticle and seeing the
photographs of these human skins.
Yeah, and I'm like it's so weirdbecause in some ways, whether
we choose to get cremated orburied or planted in a tree or
whatever, and our bodies, youknow, sort of disappear from
this earthly realm and all thatwork and all that art, and so so

(01:11:53):
I get it in some ways liketaking that.
But I also feel like my tattooson my body and I see that in
other people's is like this isme, this is Skeeter in this
lifetime, in this body, this isthe reflection of me, this is
how I look, this is how peopleremember me and they see me.
So that goes with me.
You know, when I leave thisearthly plane, my body is no
longer needed, but I do get it.

(01:12:16):
I do get that idea of taking itas artwork and sort of, you know
, putting the skin on a wall ina frame.

Micah Riot (01:12:24):
Yeah, but I think, thinking about it like someone
who's worn their tattoos for 20years, like they don't look very
bright anymore, you know,they're kind of like it just
kind of becomes part of yourlandscape.
It's not really like a thingthat's on you, so it's not like
a painting.
So I'm like I mean, maybe thatwill look like.
If I think about, like my backpiece is pretty cool.

Skeeter Barker (01:12:42):
I could look cool once.
I looks very different onceyou're dead.

Micah Riot (01:12:44):
There's no blood to it anyway, but you know right.
So I'm like does it look thatgood?
Though at that point, like Idon't, I don't even know that
it's about the look.
Maybe that's not the point.

Skeeter Barker (01:12:52):
I think it's.
It's a fascinating concept thatI've seen and read about where
people do that and definitelyyou know whether it's legal or
not.
It's not.

Micah Riot (01:13:03):
My body will just go on, yeah, but you know
something else.

Skeeter Barker (01:13:07):
Yeah, but you're right.
I mean, I, sometimes I, I don'tforget, I have tattoos, but
sometimes people you know thatwhole thing if you walk down the
street and somebody, some dudeor somebody goes, no, he's
tipped.
I'm like did you say nice tits?
I'm like there.

(01:13:30):
But thank you, um.
So I think that you know.
It just is, the newer ones I'vegotten from you on my neck and
on my hands are much morevisible to me in the world and
so, but so many on my body, I'mjust like, like I have a back
piece.
I have a whole meatloaf song onmy back.
Heaven can wait, because thatgot me through some really rough
teenage years.
That song meatloaf and I loveMeat Loaf, I love Meat Loaf and
I put that song on my back.
I never see it.

(01:13:50):
You know it's productive.
I forget it's there.
Sometimes I'm at Kabuki or somehot springs and I'm in the
changing room taking it andsomebody.
I turn around and some woman'sreading my back.

Micah Riot (01:14:00):
She's like hold on hold on.

Skeeter Barker (01:14:01):
I was like what, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, so so
yeah, I love my tattoos, I lovethat you're my tattoo artist
love that too, it's been anhonor, it's.

Micah Riot (01:14:11):
You know, it's so often like it's not often that I
get that, I get to tattoopeople who have a lot of other
work from other people and when,like that person you namely is
like okay, like I'm stickingwith you for as long as it makes
sense, or whatever, it's suchan honor, you know, because I'm
like little old me, like I don'tthink of myself as like.
I mean now I feel like I havequite a lot of experience but I

(01:14:32):
don't think of myself.
that way I still feel like ababy tattoo artist, you know, in
most ways.

Skeeter Barker (01:14:37):
Your work is gorgeous.
I mean, you know I was talkingabout that back piece you did on
that person.
It suits me, you know what.
So like people go to you knowsomebody else for solid black
work, or somebody goes tosomebody else for like you know
whatever, but your work and whoyou are and how you see me in
our relationship, it completelymatches me.

(01:14:58):
So it's like a relationship.
I'm going to come back to youfor that.

Micah Riot (01:15:06):
Well, also that you know I was taught to do
everything and people aren'ttaught to do everything these
days, like people have a nicheand that works for them and
that's cool, you know.
but yeah, like, because I wastaught to do everything, I can
meet your needs yeah I can dothe watercolor on your thigh and
I can do the trad lettering andI can do, like, whatever you
need I can do.
And I love that, you know,because I mean, who?
Who would wish to have lessskills when they do?
For sure, I love that I haveall the skills.
But sometimes I'm like, oh, butpeople have a niche, have more

(01:15:28):
followers and they have more,you know, yeah, cause it's like
the yoga thing.
You know, you being a yogateacher, looking at what you do,
like that's a niche.
It took a niche and you likefilled it Right and so I'm meet
all of your needs.

(01:15:48):
That's pretty cool, for me.
Yeah, I think it's lookingpretty good.

Skeeter Barker (01:15:50):
Yeah, I'm happy with it.
Yeah, look forward to the nextone.

Micah Riot (01:15:53):
Yeah, thank you so much for letting me come over
and interview you and talkingabout all things so frankly and
honestly and openly.
I really, really appreciatethat.
I appreciate you and love you.

Skeeter Barker (01:16:09):
It's an absolute pleasure.
I love the podcast.
I think what you're doing isgreat, and me and my dogs sorry
if they've- been a little noisythey've been great.
Yeah, but thank you so much.