Ep. 79: Cultural Appropriation in Tattooing with Renée Mak

Send us a text

One afternoon I received a message over IG thanking me for having a page on my website that mentions cultural appropriation in tattooing. I looked at the person's profile and saw that they were a tattoo artist too. This person was Renée Mak. I thanked Renée for her acknowledgement and suggested that we take this conversation onto the Ink Medicine podcast. 

It is no secret that the western and predominantly white tattoo industry is still very insistent that tattooing Chinese characters, Japanese body suits, Maori markings, and other Indigenous symbols on a white client's skin is totally fine. Is it? Maybe. Sometimes. In general, not really. 

We talk about all of this in great detail. 

Renée Mak is a Chinese Canadian queer human, a tattoo artist, a Buddhist, an acrobat and a circus artist, a producer and a writer. The words that come to mind most insistently is that Renée is brilliant and luminous. I could talk to her all day. Enjoy. 

Renée can be found on Instagram at @the.magician.tattoos and @disasterclown

Her tattoo studio is @softhearts.studio

You can connect with me, Micah Riot, as well as see my tattoo art on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/micahriot/

Micah's website is www.micahriot.com
The podcast is hosted on Buzzsprout but truly lives in the heart of Micah's website at:
https://www.micahriot.com/ink-medicine-podcast/

Episode Transcript

Micah Riot (00:29):
nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you too um willyou um renee?
Is that how you pronounce yourname?

Renée Mak (00:35):
yes, yeah, and I wanted to double check is yours
mika or micah, micah, micah?
Okay, sounds good.
That's what I thought, but Iwasn't sure.

Micah Riot (00:43):
sure, and what are your pronouns?

Renée Mak (00:46):
My pronouns are she, her, and how about yourself?

Micah Riot (00:48):
They.

Renée Mak (00:50):
Okay, perfect, where are you coming?

Micah Riot (00:53):
from today, I am in on Ohlone land in Oakland,
otherwise known as Oakland,california, and you are in
Canada.
Right, I'm in Vancouver.

Renée Mak (01:06):
The Musqueam, squamish and Tsleil-Waututh
unceded territories, because westole their land so, mm-hmm, so
that's where I am.
So yeah, we're both on the westcoast.

Micah Riot (01:15):
It looks like yeah, I was looking last night at your
your other like social mediapresence looking at some of your
circus acrobatic stuff yeah,yeah.

Renée Mak (01:26):
When you were like, oh, I didn't know, you do a
handstand training.
And then I was like I'm prettysure I didn't put handstand in
my google calendar because Iusually abbreviate everything.
And then I looked into my oh,they must.
That's why, when you're like,oh my, my partner is an
ex-acrobat, like, that makessense.

Micah Riot (01:41):
So they know, hs stands for handstands yeah,
literally, I was like hstraining could be something else
.
But who knows?
Yeah, yeah it was handstandsyeah, but it doesn't seem like
you're retired, I like.
Looked at some of your posts,it looks like you're still
performing I I last performed inseptember.

Renée Mak (01:58):
So I I I've only been tattooing.
I'm very new at tattooing andI've been wanting to do it for
several years now.
So this was kind of me puttingcircus kind of on the shelf,
just so that I can actuallypursue art and tattooing with a
little bit more gusto, becauseit's something that's always
been kind of just at the side ofmy desk I draw for more

(02:19):
therapeutic purposes.
And then now this year is thefirst year I'm actually trying
to be a little bit more full hamabout it.

Micah Riot (02:28):
So you're you.
I also read that you'retransitioning to being a
therapist.
Yes, yeah, yeah, so I went frombeing an acrobat to being a
tattoo artist.
You're going to be a therapist.

Renée Mak (02:38):
Yeah, that's the plan , although I'm taking a
university course right now intherapy and or in psychology,
and it's I.
I'm just testing out theinstitution just to see whether
or not it's kind of the rightvibes.
Um, I think for therapeutictattooing I don't need to be a
licensed therapist, um, just forthe individuals that I'm
looking to work with, and thenhow I'm looking to work with

(03:00):
them and yeah, it's just, uh,institutions, and especially the
way that they're teachingpsychology there's a lot of like
Western focused and a lot ofcolonial aspects to it that I'm
not super in line with.
So I'm looking at also justdoing crisis center training,
which is about six months forthe training alone, and they

(03:20):
really arm you with a lot ofskills to be able to work with
people in need and in crises aswell.
So'm looking at that becausethat might be something that's a
little bit more aligned withthe purpose of why I want to
pursue this education so youwant to tattoo therapeutically,
like as as what you do, liketattooing isn't going to be like

(03:41):
an occasional thing.

Micah Riot (03:43):
It's like what, how you want to build your practice
it what, how you want to buildyour practice.

Renée Mak (03:45):
It's how I want to build my practice.
yeah, just as someone, I am atrauma survivor myself, I, and I
know that being able to accessdifferent types of services has
been really integral to my ownhealing journey.
So I want to be able to kind ofjust give that back to to the
world, just because it's.
It's just kind of something Iwas thinking about in terms of
my own career transition,because I also work in the

(04:06):
technology sector as a designer,and it just kind of came to
this point where the the thing Iwant to walk away with the most
is how I made people feel andthe impact that I was able to
leave in their lives and then beable to be part of their
healing journey.
So in therapeutic tattooing,what I want to be able to do is
obviously provide safe spaces,but then also be able to provide

(04:27):
any kind of cognitive anddialectical behavior therapy,
somatic therapy in the actualexperience as well, as much as
going to be available, justbecause I know with the tattoo
experience it's not the same aswhen you actually have a
relationship with a therapist,where you're going to them
repeatedly and being able todeconstruct certain experiences
that you're processing.
So I know that the practice isgoing to be a little bit

(04:48):
different.
With that said, I do think thatthere's space for that because,
as you are probably well aware,a lot of folks will often treat
tattoo sessions as therapy, andI don't always think that's
necessarily fair for a tattooartist, because they may or may
not have the emotional capacityto be able to receive what a

(05:09):
client might be giving to them,and they may also not have the
skill set to be able to respondeffectively as well.
So I do see a gap in theindustry and I think a lot of
other industries alsoexperiences.
So hairstylists as well asbartenders they often also do a
lot of emotional labor for folkshairstylists as well as
bartenders.

Micah Riot (05:27):
They often also do a lot of emotional labor for
folks.
Yeah, I mean, it's almost likethat's what we get paid for
first and foremost, but Idefinitely um seen on folks like
um.
I've seen people invite youknow backstory for tattoos,
including trauma, and I've alsoseen people say like please
don't give me the details, likeI just want to know what you
want exactly.
You know.

Renée Mak (05:44):
That's all I really want to know what you want
Exactly, you know that's all Ireally want to know at this
point.

Micah Riot (05:48):
So yeah, it is interesting to see how people
approach it.
You know and I don't know ifyou listened to.
I had a couple episodes.
It sounds like you found methrough, like my website, more
than the podcast.

Renée Mak (05:58):
I did, yeah, but.

Micah Riot (05:59):
I did some two.
I did two podcast episodes withSarah, who is, I think, medicine
.
Sarah, she's a trauma-informedtattoo artist in Michigan Okay,
yeah, another state of theUnited States and she spoke a

(06:20):
lot about that and how she cameto it from being a caseworker
and working with a lot ofhouseless populations and it's
really cool to see people kindof change careers and go into it
from perspective, like not fromart being the first kind of
seed of it, but from lovinghumanity, wanting to help
humanity as a you know theinitial piece of it because,
yeah, when I entered theindustry in 2008, it was very

(06:41):
much like you have to be anartist.
And, yeah, as somebody like nottrained you know, I don't have
formal art training I was like,can I do this?
Are people gonna like what I do?
And then, of course, you know,found that people saw my value
like as a, you know as aconversationalist, as a
supporter, as you know, somebodyin their corner, like part of

(07:02):
their sort of healing team, youknow, and that's kind of how I
built, you know, my career forthe last 16 years yeah, I think
that's the.

Renée Mak (07:11):
The thing with tattooing is that so much of it
is about the actual experienceitself as well, not just the
actual art, and are obviouslythe art is part of it, but if,
if you, it's almost like dating.
I feel like if you don't reallyvibe well with your tattoo
artists, you may walk away fromthe experience not feeling
necessarily very great and worse, some folks are actually

(07:32):
traumatized in their tattooexperiences with the, with the
kind of relationship dynamicthat may exist between a client
and a tattoo artist, and that'ssomething I I don't know.
I'm like I would never want toaccidentally do that.
So I do think that there's alot of space for folks to be
able to to be a bit more mindfulabout it and I don't know like

(07:52):
the industry is just sointeresting because it is so
diverse, especially across theworld as well, and there's been
so many kind of evolutions of itand and I'm loving the
evolution that I'm seeing nowwith a lot of like queer and
like femmes in the space, morethan what has traditionally been
there, at least in thewesternized nations.

Micah Riot (08:10):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I only am familiar with what's
here for the most part Rightshift in maybe 2012, when I

(08:31):
started seeing um, there was ablog called tatrix and the
person running it would put outlike really cool, very
innovative, very differentlooking art from tattoo artists
from all over the world mostlynot from the united states and,
um, it kind of gave me, you know, kind of gave me this sort of
like oh yeah, we're doing thingsdifferently now because there's
more different kinds of peoplein the industry and we're more
attentive to the client as ahuman, as a whole person not

(08:52):
just like as a piece of skinwith a wallet attached to it,
and people starting to do otherkinds of art dot work, black
work, like large scale stuff youknow the stuff that looked like
scribble, like just trying outdifferent things, um, as styles,
because when I was first comingin it was all like Americana
type of tattooing, right?
yeah, I guess you've been in theindustry for what might say a

(09:15):
hot minute?

Renée Mak (09:16):
it's been a minute yeah, I mean it's cool, you know
it's like my longestrelationship with my life.

Micah Riot (09:20):
Um, yeah, yeah, it's , it's cool.
It's cool to be kind of at thisstage and be like, oh, you know
, cause for the longest time Iwas like I, I feel like a baby
and I still feel, you know, likethere's a lot to learn, but I'm
starting to feel a bit morelike okay, I kind of know what
I'm talking about.
After like 16 years, I'mstarting to feel that way.

Renée Mak (09:39):
So I can look forward to the entering the same space,
and in 16 years, myself.

Micah Riot (09:45):
Yeah Well, I'm so curious how you know in your um
how you view the building of thetype of business you're talking
about.
Like so I I was married to atherapist and he was just
starting his practice at thetime when we were together, and
so we had this idea you knowwhere we're like what if we get
the same building and likeyou'll have your office?
Right and you will work withsomebody you know for a certain

(10:07):
amount of time and then you knowyou come up with an image and
like then bring me in to the,you know, to the sessions.
It's like part of the wholepackage, sort of the work that
you're doing with that person,that piece of their healing, and
then I do the tattoo and thatperson like kind of like work as
a team, as a therapist andtattoo artist team.
It was a cool idea.
You know, I don't think it'snot.

(10:27):
It's not a good idea, which isfor us.
That wasn't the path.

Renée Mak (10:32):
You're like you wanted to do that as one person.

Micah Riot (10:34):
That's a lot.

Renée Mak (10:35):
Yeah, it is a lot and I think it's.
I also have an interest in insomatic therapy and I, you know,
I have Chinese heritage.
So traditional Chinese medicineisn't something that I
particularly am well educatedabout, because it is its own
branch of medicine that requiresa lot of training, but it did
grow up around traditionalChinese medicine.

(10:57):
It is something that my familydoes practice, so there are a
lot of overlaps with somaticsaround traditional Chinese
medicine.
And that is something that wasinteresting to me is because
tattooing itself is a somaticexperience and it can be a
somatic experience that can bequite dysregulating.
And I believe that there's waysthat we can actually be able to
integrate that somatics and thenbe able to calm the nervous

(11:20):
system down as well, so itdoesn't feel as dysregulating,
to calm the nervous system downas well, so it doesn't feel as
dysregulating.
And if you know anything abouttraditional Chinese medicine, a
lot of it comes down tomeridians and how energy moves
through your body.
So I am hoping to be able tolearn a little bit more about it
, in addition to more classicalWestern psychology, just so that
I can kind of blend everythingtogether, because that's just it

(11:41):
.
It's like no one type ofmodality when it comes to any
kind of therapeutic practice isgoing to be right for every
single individual.
So having kind of a toolbox ofmodalities at my disposal, I
think, is going to be a goodpath, and I may not be
necessarily a master in all ofthem, but at least I can provide
a little bit of it.

Micah Riot (11:59):
So that's, I'm still in very early stages, so right
now I'm still trying to get mytechnique down pat yeah um, are
you connecting it also to likeacupressure or acupuncture, to
like where in the body and howit relates to the?

Renée Mak (12:14):
yeah, okay, yeah I would want to do that.
So, even if it's somethingwhere you may not necessarily be
getting an image, but it mightbe a series of dots, for example
along certain meridians, wherewe know that there might be some
energy shifts that need tohappen, and it might be
something that's because tattoosare permanent unless you do get
it covered up or lasered, thatis something that I do want to
do a little bit more research in.

(12:35):
So that's why I feel a littlebit more comfortable with
providing somatics in terms ofhelping people through different
breath work, providing a bit oftalk therapy, just being able
to hold a safe space for them,as I kind of understand a little
bit more about what is thereality of TCM with tattooing,
because with acupuncture, whileit does work with meridians and

(12:55):
you are puncturing the skin, itis not something that's
permanent.

Micah Riot (12:58):
So I do think a little bit more research and
patience needs to be involved inthat, because it's it's kind of
new territory yeah, I took acourse in a past life regression
diagnosis last year, and soI've been thinking about how to
integrate it into my practicemore would be really cool.

(13:21):
Yeah, um right, because people Imean, I have also feel like
I've seen, you know, over thismany years like kind of you see
different things happen insessions, right, like people
might spend the whole sessioncrying, and it's very, um,
intentional like they come inand they say, this is what I
need to do.
Okay, give you full permission.
Like I will not stop the checkon you unless you need me to.

(13:44):
You know, unless you want tostop, like I will just let you
do your thing and I'll keeptattooing you.
Right, like having intentionsbe set for that at first, the
communication happen and I'veseen people's like passed away
sort of the you know, thespirits of their passed away
people stand over them.
I've, like you know, I've had alot of different experiences in
different ways, um, kind of ondifferent planes yeah, it must

(14:08):
feel really, uh, powerful to beable to experience that, yeah,
and I mean I love you cominginto this with all these
modalities.
How did you um come to tattooingin the first place, like, what
was your history with tattooing?

Renée Mak (14:22):
my history with tattooing is actually it was a
bit organic, so I have been anartist for a while.
So I studied graphic designwhen I went back to school and I
was introduced to drawing asjust something that we had to do
, but it's not anything Iactually pursued when I was in
graphic design.
I pursued more classicalgraphic design, branding, as
well as data visualization, andthen, unfortunately, there were

(14:47):
some challenging things thathappened in my life when I
finished school and drawingbecame more of a meditative
practice for me.
So initially it just came to beas more of a fun thing that I
would do on the side and then itdeeply became something that it
was the only way I actuallyknew how to express kind of my
internal experience.
And you know, I don't know ifyou had a chance to look at some
of my art, but yeah, so it's.

(15:09):
It's a lot of them areself-portraits of myself and
just it's just like the way Idrew wasn't necessarily
something that was particularlytechnically advanced, just
because it wasn't something thatI focused on a lot.
So my drawings were veryprimitive at the beginning but
because of that they were justvery simple line work and I had
a lot of folks actually ask meto design tattoos for them.

(15:33):
Once I started releasing thatwork and that was just kind of
my introduction into the tattooworld where I was asked to
design tattoos people wouldoften tell me that my work
looked very tattooable.
And then I had a tattoo frommany, many years ago and then I
got it covered up because it wasassociated with some bad
experiences that I had in mylife.
So that was kind of my firstexperience of having a like a

(15:55):
more of a therapeutic experienceof having something that was
deeply traumatizing.
And then actually have somebodywho to this day is still one of
my current tattoo artists andhas been a mentor to me
throughout my career progressionso far, and having someone who
is able to hold me in a safespace and actually do the
physical act of covering thistattoo was very therapeutic to

(16:16):
me.
And then after that I began tojust start to get more tattoos
and kind of just fell in lovewith getting tattoos and then
also fell in love with drawingand what it meant for me.
So it was only kind of a matterof time when the two sort of
coalesced together, and it wasabout two years ago when I
really started to think moreseriously about it, and then

(16:37):
it's only in the last year Ireally started to pursue it a
bit more seriously.

Micah Riot (16:43):
And you said you have a mentor, but are you in a
studio with other artists?
Do you have a formalapprenticeship or like what?
How are you doing it?

Renée Mak (16:50):
I had a formal apprenticeship and then I left
it to just open a private studiowith my friend, just because I
do want to be able to providepeople with therapeutic
experiences.
I know that sometimes folks aregoing to come in with some
deeply vulnerable things thatthey're going to want to talk
about.
And in the studio that I was inbefore there were 10 artists
and it was a very small studioso there wasn't always the

(17:11):
privacy that I felt that theclients that I was bringing in
needed.
So I got a private studio whichis actually only about three
blocks away from my old studio.
So I still go there a lot and II still just kind of collect a
lot of mentors along the way andask questions.
I'm going to go shadow a tattooartist next week and just kind
of watch her work and then she'sgoing to watch me tattoo as

(17:33):
well.
So I'm still very much in thelearning processes and and I
think it's um I had a couple ofnot pleasant experiences in that
two-year trajectory of lookingto learn and get into the
industry and because of thatI've been, I've been really
hesitant of like formalapprenticeships just because of
the bad experiences that I'vehad.
So what I've been doing is justkind of reaching out to people

(17:56):
who I trust in the industry andlearning from them and then just
trying to be reciprocal as muchas possible in the effort that
they're giving me as well I mean, if you don't, if you are
willing to talk about those notgood experiences.

Micah Riot (18:11):
I I feel like I get approached a lot by tattoo
artists who are starting out andwho are, which is cold calling
right and they're saying like um, are you available for
apprenticeship?
And I don't know them, nevermet them right and I usually
respond and I say this is notthe way to do it.
You're going to end up in somebad space, like someone's going
to take advantage of you, likeyou need to go meet people.
You need to approach people youknow, um and I feel like I say

(18:34):
this over and over again youknow, and people I feel like
people listen sometimes to thispodcast who are starting out.
So I don't know, like, if youare willing to talk more about
your bad experiences, trying tolearn, absolutely.

Renée Mak (18:46):
Yeah.
So I actually, when I wasstarting to want to learn, I was
working full time in the techindustry and when I was doing I
started to do a lot of researchon apprenticeships and just
trying to understand how youmight be able to get one.
And I also talked to my mentor,who is one of the first people
who tattooed me and covered upthat tattoo and he did a formal

(19:06):
apprenticeship and he very muchhas an attitude of you don't
need to do this because hisapprenticeship.
He didn't have a greatexperience in it either and he's
since become a very successful,wildly talented tattoo artist
as well.
And for me I just wasn't in aplace to be able to not work and
have to be able to go to atattoo studio and not being paid

(19:29):
.
I just it wasn't a place thatwas viable for me.
I was dealing with a lot ofmental health issues.
It was just really importantfor me to be able to kind of
meet my baseline of needs, thatI could shelter myself, feed
myself and then also affordmental health services.
So that was kind of my toppriority feed myself and then
also afford mental healthservices.
So that was kind of my toppriority.
So then what I had done is Iactually did some research on

(19:50):
just courses, because I alsohave a lot of strong feelings
around apprenticeships and justkind of the internship model
that happens to exist in manydifferent industries not just
tattoos as well where it doesprovide an access issue or
presents an access issue forpeople.
Where it's kind of folks whoare able to afford an
apprenticeship, then they'reable to kind of enter the
industry.
And if you can't afford anapprenticeship, then you either

(20:12):
don't get one or you're going tolive a life where you're really
suffering for several years andjust trying to make ends meet
and really burning yourself outof going to, you know, every day
to a studio learning but thenalso trying to work an actual
job as well so you can make endsmeet, and I just don't think
that anybody should ever have tosuffer like that, like we don't
need to be working 50, 60 hourweeks.

(20:35):
That's not.
That's not a life that anybodyshould be living, and I really
deeply believe that.
So I took a course which endedup being a bit of a scam and and
I am always you know, I'm notungrateful for the experience
because I do think through everyexperience we do learn.
So I deeply learned who I don'twant to be in that experience.

Micah Riot (20:57):
Was the scammy part just like the difference of
values, or was it literally likeyou didn't get the, you know,
the kind of learning that youpaid for?

Renée Mak (21:05):
It was a little bit of both.
So I don't think that I thinkthat some folks may have gotten
the learning that they werelooking for.
I think for myself is I'm thekind of person who I take a
little bit longer to learn.
I need a little bit morehands-on experience.
I'm not someone who just is atheoretical learner.
I'm very much.
I need to do it in order tolearn it, and I just felt like

(21:29):
you know, it was a lot of wewere tattooing skin very quickly
.
I didn't feel comfortable doingit, nor was I being overseen
when I was tattooing skin either, and the individual who was
running this course would justkind of go off and be like I got

(21:49):
this gig and I have to go anddo this gig, and that didn't
feel good for me.
Just because I am a mentor inthe design industry, I've
mentored designers throughdifferent phases of their career
and I'm a very involved mentorand I think when you, when you
make the choice to be a mentor,you have to be willing to accept
the work that comes with it aswell, and you know, that's why
you know some mentorships theydo get paid.
I get paid as a mentor in thedesign industry because it is
time, it is my expertise and forthat reason I'm also going to

(22:11):
show up as best as I can becauseI am being paid for it.
So there was a bit of a valuemisalignment there where in this
course, I am paying money, so Ido expect somebody to be there
Because there is a bit oftransaction going on there,
whereas more informalapprenticeships, where you're
not being paid, I understand.
That's why you know you'reasking a lot for somebody for

(22:32):
their time, their expertise, andyou have to ask the question of
what are they getting back fromit as well?
So so that's why I'm like Ijust I have a lot of attitudes
around the apprenticeship model.
Where it's there's a lot ofinherent issues for all parties
involved and I do think thatthere are different ways that we
could be approaching it, butthat that course ended up not
being great and I was in personor online.

(22:55):
It was in person and I wasintroduced to a studio setting
where I was able to deeply learn.
This is the kind of studio thatI wouldn't want to be a part of
.
So there was an incident thathappened where I actually had to
call the police on the shopowner on the very last day of
class, because someone had comeinto the shop and it was very
clear that they were on somesort of substance, but they
weren't being aggressive, and Ithink with proper conflict

(23:18):
resolution skills andde-escalation skills, the
situation would have been ableto be managed in a peaceful
manner.
But instead it escalated quiterapidly and culminated in the
shop owner just beating the shitout of this guy in the parking
lot, which was very alarming forme to see.
So I actually ended up havingto call the cops to be able to

(23:39):
make sure that this persondidn't die, essentially.

Micah Riot (23:41):
So sorry, that sounds so dramatic and die.

Renée Mak (23:46):
Essentially.
So sorry that sounds sodramatic, yeah, so after that I
have a lot of hesitations ofcertain shops and certain
personas as well, and I hatethat.
That's kind of the experiencethat I walked away from, because
I do think that everybodydeserves a chance.
Nobody deserves any kind ofquick judgments and just because
someone may physically looklike a type of kind of persona
that you have a mental model of,it may not necessarily that
that's the truth, but that issort of something that I walked

(24:07):
away with and I have to learn tokind of deconstruct it I've
entirely avoided men's shops inmy career.

Micah Riot (24:17):
I was able to be in women-owned shops um my whole
life, and now I have his privacyyeah.
Yeah, I mean I felt so luckyabout it.
You know like there weredefinitely like dudes here and
there part of the shops, likesome you know kind of being
artists in these shops, but itwas so the structure of like how

(24:39):
power went and it wasn't alwaysamazing either.
You know like there was a shitthat happened Like I got a knife
pulled on me by a woman I'm sosorry, my first shop you know,
like shit, like people are stillkind of, uh, rough and tumble
and yeah, and sometimesaggressive and like it's old
school.

Renée Mak (24:56):
Like the old school, tattoo culture is very intense
um yeah, which I find veryinteresting, as because
tattooing has a long historythat predates it being an
industry at all, and I find itkind, of I almost find it
interesting that there is thisold school, very male dominated
thought process around tattooing, which is also a very

(25:18):
westernized approach to it aswell.
Well, whereas tattooing hasexisted in many tribal cultures
for time immemorial as anessential part of how they're
able to express the types ofcommunities that they come from,
yeah, I mean, it's its ownthing here, right?

Micah Riot (25:36):
And then people like to fetishize and romanticize
sort of the quote-unquote tribalstyles of tattooing and
appropriate them.
So now we've gotten to thetopic that we originally wanted
to talk about and, you know, putmore out there about this topic
and I think people are more andmore interested in learning

(25:56):
what is cultural appropriation?
How do I avoid it?
You know what's appreciationversus appropriation?
Why is it bad?
You know all of these questionsand that you know you can't
really download that information.
Someone's brain in oneconversation who doesn't really
understand.
But people, I mean people don'tthink about how our world and

(26:17):
the colonization of our worldhas become.
You know, has made every otherculture like up for grabs and
being appropriated and whythat's not okay.
Can you speak to that fromwhatever angle you'd like to?

Renée Mak (26:33):
Yeah, I guess for me it's.
Cultural appropriation issomething when I was in design
school that we actually talkedabout a lot, and I think it was
something that people werealways very cognizant of and
being very careful of not toculturally appropriate.
At the time when I was studying, the Day of the Dead aesthetic
was something that became quitepopularized in graphic design

(26:54):
and it became a subject ofconversation of hey, if you
actually don't come from thisculture, you have to ask
yourself whether or not it'sappropriate to use the motifs
that are coming from the day ofthe dead and if you even
understand the like the, thesignificance of the motifs as
well.
So it was.
It was a bit of um.
It was almost unusual when Ientered into the tattoo industry

(27:16):
and started to have an interestin it, where I see these two,
these two pathways happening inthe world, where we do have a
lot of conversations and a lotof folks who are very, very,
very observant to not culturallyappropriate.
They're having theconversations, they're being a
little bit more mindful abouthow they're displaying their
work and then the tattooindustry, where it almost seems
very rampant and there's not asmuch discourse happening around

(27:38):
it and that's.
It's almost like thisdissonance of not understanding,
like why that and and that'skind of a conversation piece of
you know can we make change?
Can we start to have thediscourse?
How do we start to have thediscourse as well?
You had mentioned somethingaround what is cultural
appropriation versus culturalappreciation, and that's
something that I think it's just.
If we have more discourse aroundit, then I think we'll be able

(28:00):
to be able to start to buildsome community practices and
standards of what is going to beappreciative versus
appropriation.
So I think about Irizumi, forexample, where, like as an Asian
tattoo artist, I do have peoplecoming to me sometimes asking
if I do Asian style tattoos andI do, but I'm very specific

(28:20):
about wanting to make sure thatI'm only doing tattoos that are
specific to my Chinese heritage,as opposed to something that
actually belongs to say theJapanese culture.
And I think Irizumi is aninteresting one, because when I
was doing a bit of research onIrizumi, what I understood is
that it was a dying art form inJapan because of a lot of the
stigmas that come with it.

(28:41):
So so a lot of the Irizumimasters they were getting older
and they wanted to be able topass on their practice.
So they actually began to goworldwide to be able to teach
folks outside of Japan how tocontinue to keep this culture
and practice alive.
So for that one.

Micah Riot (28:56):
Where can you define it?
I also I'm not.
I'm not exactly sure what it is, and also for listeners.
Can define Irizumi.

Renée Mak (29:02):
Irizumi is the Japanese like the full, like a
lot of motifs, very full bodysuits.
It is like very much tied tolike the Yakuza culture in Japan
as well.
So there's still a lot ofstigmas that exist around it.
Stigma around tattooing stillreally deeply exists in Asia as
well, and I can't speakspecifically for Japanese

(29:24):
culture as a non-Japanese person, but just as an Asian person.
Just generally I do understandthat there are still some
stigmas that do exist.
As I understand and this isjust kind of from cursory
research is a lot of Irizumimasters because they wanted to
make sure that their artpractice lives on and because of
the stigmas that they wereexperiencing in Japan, they
actually went worldwide to beable to teach other people the

(29:47):
style of Irizumi tattooing.
So with that one I do thinkthat there's a little bit more
leniency of folks who are notJapanese practicing at Irizumi
because Irizumi mastersthemselves, they decided to go
abroad and then share that artform and then share the skill
and practice as well.
So but for me as as an Asianartist, I feel like there's

(30:10):
there's enough cultural motifsin my own culture that I don't
need to borrow from anotherculture, and I always find that
kind of interesting, because Ihave a friend who she she's of
European descent and she'd beenwanting a dragon tattoo and was
feeling really conflicted aboutgetting a dragon tattoo, because
a lot of the dragon tattoosthat do exist out there are very

(30:31):
oriental inspired.
But then she started doingresearch on her own heritage and
dragons within her own heritageand was able to understand
there's a deep myth, likemythology, of dragons within her
own culture.
So why not just do the researchto understand a little bit more
about the motifs that arespecific to your culture and
then be able to kind of build atattoo design around that?

(30:52):
So I do think that there'sspace for artists to just really
deeply understand, like, whatculture do I come from, what is
important to me, as opposed toactually borrowing from other
cultures do you, when you sortof make decisions around like
what will I tattoo, what will Inot tattoo?

Micah Riot (31:07):
and say um, it has to do with another culture that
you're you know, not chineseculture, but another type of
culture, um, do you think aboutthe power dynamics of kind of
like world powers Cause, like,as you said, you know, irizumi,
um, japanese style tattooing.
It's more widespread, it's morekind of like considered okay to

(31:31):
borrow from in, you know, a lotof tattoo culture versus.
I think people understand thatlike, um, african symbolism is
so specific, right, whereJapanese tattoos are sort of
part of the mainstream tattooculture.
Yeah, and then when it kind ofcomes down to that, I mean I
agree with you, like arounddragons you know, if a white
person was a dragon, we'relooking at european dragons,

(31:52):
we're not looking at chinesedragons um, but in sort of the
sense of like people want koifish or they want, you know,
wind bars or they want mapleleaves or whatever.
And I'm kind of like, well, yes, there's racism, you know,
towards people of color acrossthe board, but like the Japanese

(32:12):
are also oppressors, you know.
And also like other cultures.
You know I'm from Russia, I'm aRussian jew um which actually
means that I wasn't treated as awhite person when I was growing
up.
Um, but if people want, likerussian prison tattoos, I don't
fucking care, you know.
But if they want, I don't knowum, something more specific.

(32:33):
Or you know, like, say, hebrewsomething?
You know where it's morespecific and the people are
smaller and more oppressed.
Um, like yeah, no, like not.
If you're not of this, you know, if you don't have roots in
this culture, do you?
Do you make those distinctionsor are you just like okay, if
you're white, you like stickwith european tattoos I, I don't

(32:54):
really.

Renée Mak (32:54):
It's nuance, I suppose, is the answer is you
know, like for myself as, uh, as, an artist, there are certain
things that I'm not going totattoo where you, you know, as
much as I love.
I'm trying to remember thestyle name.
It's at the tip of my tongue.
It's like the American Mexicanstyle.
It's very popular specificallyin, like American Mexican

(33:15):
culture.

Micah Riot (33:17):
You're talking about like kind of West Coast, like
black and gray kind of stuffyeah.
It's like it was born in uhwest coast prisons, I think okay
, yeah, talking about it's, yeah, there's like clowns and like
clowns um a lot, a lot of umcursive text.

Renée Mak (33:33):
There's a, there's a specific, there's a specific
name for the style.

Micah Riot (33:35):
It's just um, at the tip of my tongue yeah, we'll
figure it out and I'll make anote later yeah, I'll probably
wake up at midnight and, justyou know, shoot outside please
yeah, it'll be one of those 3amthings, be like I remembered.

Renée Mak (33:47):
But you know I love the style, of the aesthetic is
really beautiful, but thatculture isn't mine, so for
myself I would never feelcomfortable tattooing it, just
because I don't deeplyunderstand what it is like to
live as a mexican american umwith.
You know, in Canada we have alot of issues with just how
Indigenous people have beenclassically oppressed and are

(34:09):
still experiencing a lot ofoppression as well, and it's
like if somebody were to ask meto tattoo something that was
specifically Indigenous orIndigenous inspired, my first
answer would just be I wouldlove to help you find an
Indigenous artist that is goingto be a really well-oriented
artist to do this work for you.
Just because those artists aregoing to exist, one and two.

(34:33):
That's not the lived experiencethat I have.
The only things that I feelcomfortable tattooing are, you
know, things that have reallynot much cultural relevance or
something that comes from my ownculture, because those are my
lived experiences and in thequestion of somebody who's
receiving a tattoo, that becomeskind of a personal conversation
that you need to have foryourself.

(34:54):
So, for example, I actually hada friend who asked me to tattoo
something that was indigenousinspired because she had spent a
lot of time in the Yukonterritories and has a lot of
deep-lived experiences withIndigenous communities, so for
her it has a lot of personalrelevance.
So I understand that it is herown choice to tattoo something
that is Indigenous-inspired,even though she herself is not

(35:16):
Indigenous.
She did have conversations withher own Indigenous community be
like is this okay?
People gave her the thumbs upand I think that's you know,
that's really great that she wasable to do that work.
And then when she asked me, Ijust I put my boundary and said
I really love that this isreally meaningful for you and
that you've done the work to beable to understand whether or
not it is appreciation orappropriation, because it is

(35:36):
going to always be a personalexperience for other people.
But I just kind of told her thisis my boundary and I will be
happy to refer you to otherindigenous artists.
So I think that's just it.
Like, as an artist, I thinkthere's more of a moral
responsibility to understandwhat is appropriation, what is
appreciation, and then, as anindividual who's receiving a

(35:58):
tattoo, that's going to be a bitmore of a nuanced conversation
and something that you deeplyhave to have with yourself,
because you know we don't knowlike someone may have grown up
in a culture where they may notphysically look like it, but
they deeply identify with it,and in that case it might be
just appreciation as opposed toappropriation yeah, you know, I
think it's.

Micah Riot (36:18):
It's always like a question.
You know, I did a dream catcheron a white woman because when
she came to me and asked me forit, she said I grew up in New
Mexico and there was a dreamcatcher hanging over my bed when
I was a kid and I feel likeit's a symbol of safety for me
and I said, okay, and I will dothis for you.
And I don't think I've done onesince, you know, because, of

(36:39):
course, it's an indigenoussymbol here of folks from the
lands where New Mexico is now.
And yeah, so I'm like.
It sort of was like one of thosemoments where I was like yeah,
I mean, I guess I get like I'llsay yes because you're giving me
like a good explanation, but itfelt super odd to be the person

(37:00):
to like decide.
You know, give me like a goodexplanation, but it felt super
odd to be the person to likedecide.
You know, and in general, I Iguess I'm not, I don't know
enough tattooers um, I know, youknow like to refer people
specifically to say like youwant indigenous themed tattoo,
you should go to this indigenousartist and I also, because of
the kind of first topic wetouched upon of like how people

(37:21):
feel safe or not safe withpeople.
When they've come to me, Itrust that I'm the person that's
meant to do their piece.

Renée Mak (37:30):
Right.

Micah Riot (37:30):
That's not always true, you know, but for the most
part it's felt like okay, youchose me, I feel good about you,
Like this is the connectionthat we have, you've established
that I don't want to pass youon, I don't want to make you
feel like you know like I, Idon't want this.
Go on like kind of hot potato,you know right.
So I've generally was on theside of like.

(37:53):
If people wanted something Iwasn't comfortable doing, I
would say I'm comfortabletattooing you, I'm not
comfortable doing this piece onyou like.
Can we change it in some waythat will make us both
comfortable?
Or is there a different pieceyou'd like to get from me?
But kind of like honoring themhaving found me specifically and
the connection that we madespecifically as kind of first

(38:14):
and then the thing they want asa second, and then or you know,
or saying like I would love totattoo you.
Here's some ideas I have forwhat.
You know where you're at, um,the specifically cultural piece
that you want, isn't it?
You know like so, yeah, so likenot.
If you're on the side of notpassing people on, because I've
also seen how hurt people getwhen you try to pass them on-
you know absolutely um, and theywill like write you off forever

(38:37):
.
They'll be like you rejected me, I reject you.
It's's interesting People takethings like that very personally
, right.

Renée Mak (38:44):
I guess you've had a lot more experience in the
industry as well.
So I think maybe I just haven'tencountered that quite yet
because I'm still very new inthe experience, but I think it
comes down to it's always goingto be a nuanced conversation,
and I think that's the key thingis that there needs to be a
conversation that's had.
There needs to be aconversation that's had.
There needs to be aconversation between the
individuals involved, thepotential communities involved,

(39:04):
as well as a conversation thatyou have with yourself.
So I think even you know, astattoo artists, we have to have
conversations with ourselves ofwhat are we comfortable
tattooing and why?
And then, are you comfortableto have that conversation with a
client and assert your boundaryand then be able to establish
what are some other potentialsolutions that we can have?
And then, as somebody who mightbe receiving tattoos, asking
yourself the question of why amI getting this tattoo?

(39:27):
Is it just because I think itlooks cool, or is there actually
a deep significance to it?
And then, how does it impactthe communities where the
symbology and the motifs mayactually belong to?
And I think that's it becomesdifficult because you know this
isn't getting a tattoo isusually deeply personal for

(39:49):
somebody.
It's not wearing a headdress atCoachella, where it's very
clear to be able to identifythat as this is behavior that is
appropriative.
So I think that's just.
It is within this industry.
We just need to start to havemore discourse around it.
And I don't necessarily thinkthat that's just.
It is within this industry.

Micah Riot (40:05):
We just need to start to have more discourse
around it and I don'tnecessarily think that that's
happening.
Yes, uh, not enough.
I was gonna bring in, so I dida piece on a woman's hand.
It's a blue piece from arussian style of pottery.
It's called and it's, you know,um, I'm sure borrowed from the
dutch and also from chinese.
There's blue painting and rightin chinese culture and also in

(40:26):
dutch culture and I'm sureothers as well.
But I posted that reel and itwent viral.
It was really the only piece ofmine.
I ever had go viral on tiktokspecifically, and it got by now
I don't know how many, but likesix million views at the last
time I looked and, of course,the comments were like this
isn't yours to do, because it'snot actually Russian, it's
actually Chinese or it'sactually Dutch, and I also, even

(40:51):
so, it's a Russian, both theclient and I are of Russian
descent, russian Jewish descent.
She wanted specifically, youknow, for that reason, and you
know I was a good fit for thatright, like it was a good fit
for that right, like it was, itwas a good, good fit.

(41:11):
And then the song I used, uh,for the reel was by a ukrainian
artist, and this was rightbefore russia attacked ukraine.
And the woman who sings thesong that I put on the reel, um,
has since stopped speakingrussian, singing in russian.
She only speaks and sings inukrainian and has completely,
like, separate herself fromrussia in all the ways.
This song, however, is inrussian, and so the comments I
was getting were like you putthis song on there, how dare you
?
She's a ukrainian, you know,artist and singer, and this is a

(41:32):
russian tattoo, like how dareyou do that?
And then, like the style it'snot actually russian, it's
chinese, or it's this, it's that.
And I was like, okay, likebeing viral is interesting
because people have all kinds ofopinions, right, and everyone
is correct, right, like everyonewho was saying something was
correct, but also, like I have aperspective, yeah, of how
appropriate it was to do thetattoo on this person me, me, me

(41:57):
, person who does it.
And then the song I chose.
I like the song, um, and youknow, this was before the war
started in Ukraine.
But also this woman built herentire career on Russian
listeners and from.
Russian money.
So also the time I was like,yeah, there's no problem with
her singing the song and anyway,it's just been such an
interesting thing to culturallybe like, specifically placing

(42:19):
myself in a online, especiallyyou know, where people just
throw things at you I thinkthat's the thing.

Renée Mak (42:25):
It's like context matters, and context matters
because it it's able to show thenuance where, you know, had the
war started before you postedthat, you may have made a very
different decision of the choiceof music, but you posted it
beforehand.
So it's kind of you know, a lotof times in online spaces is

(42:47):
everyone's moving really quickly.
In online spaces we're notnecessarily stopping to
critically assess what is thecontext that's actually
happening here and anything.
That's just it comes down tolike we have to be able to have
discourse and and it's it'stough to be online, just because
it does open you up to a lot ofcriticism.
Even when we try our best toshow up as compassionate, as

(43:09):
informed, we're always going tomake mistakes and we're always
going to be, you know, open forany kind of the reality, and I'm
sorry that that happened to you, because that's also tough,
because it's it's it can feelvery challenging to know that
you're doing your best as ahuman being and then receive a

(43:30):
lot of criticism as well.
So I'm sorry that that happenedto you and I think it's just.
You know, we all just have tokind of take a moment and just
believe that most people in thisworld're doing our best.
That is, I think, the baseline.

Micah Riot (43:44):
Most people in the world it's so hard to believe
that you know, especially rightnow on the united states
absolutely yeah and to rememberthat I mean I try, I'm like a
pretty judgy person, you know,like there's a lot of things
that I um, right away, go, likeyou know, or like even, or
people, like whole groups ofpeople, like white men, like I'm
like fuck off.
I don't want to be around you.
They'll come near me.

Renée Mak (44:05):
Um, yeah I try as well.
It's um.
What's really helps me is um,is buddhism, and the concept of
reincarnation has really helpedme to find more compassion for
myself and others as well.
Just because you know, theconcept of reincarnation is that
we are constantly justrecycling new life phases until
we become the best version ofourselves.
So when we interact withsomebody who is not necessarily

(44:28):
always showing up well, thetakeaway that I always have is
maybe they're just in life phase10.
And I'm in life phase 40.
So there's just a verydifferent set of experiences
that are happening here, andwhen this person's in like phase
40, I'm probably going to getalong with them a lot better.

Micah Riot (44:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I hear you, you know, butthere's also like I just have an
immediate like you don't, Idon't want my energy going to
this, absolutely Like phase 10.

Renée Mak (44:54):
Yes, and you don't need your energy to go into
somebody who's in phase 10.

Micah Riot (44:59):
Did you grow up with ?
Did you and your parents speakabout reincarnation?

Renée Mak (45:02):
as a little kid, no, I actually was raised Catholic
which is interesting not by myfamily, but I was put in the
Catholic school system becausewhen my parents immigrated to
Canada they were kind of broughtup with this belief that the
Catholic school system wasbetter than the public school
system because it receives bothpublic as well as Catholic
funding.
So I don't know whether or notthat is a true statement.

(45:24):
It's just kind of what myparents had assumed was the
truth when they immigrated toCanada.
So they put me and my sister inthe Catholic school system and
they were very hands off withthe way that they raised us in
terms of religion.
So we just grew up Catholicjust because we were in the
Catholic school system.
And then I actually discoveredBuddhism a few years ago when I
was going through my own kind ofhealing journey with trauma,

(45:46):
and it's something that has justbeen able to help me so much in
terms of finding compassion formyself, finding compassion for
other people and then just to beable to build the skills to
regulate as well.
So that's more of a new lifething that has happened.

Micah Riot (46:01):
Is that a daily practice for you?
Do you meditate daily?

Renée Mak (46:04):
I don't meditate daily, but I do have just kind
of like daily reminders that arejust kind of scattered within
my daily life.
So on my phone I have statuesof deities in my home, even
though I don't necessarilypractice in a theistic way.
But it's just seeing thedeities in my home reminds me of
the practices of Buddhism, thatremind me to take it into how

(46:26):
I'm interacting in the world andwith other people.
I still make mistakes.
I'm still, I'm still gonna be,I'm still a douchebag sometimes.
I mean.

Micah Riot (46:37):
I'd hope so, you know.

Renée Mak (46:38):
Yeah.

Micah Riot (46:39):
How boring would it be to be like perfect and
enlightened all the time.

Renée Mak (46:41):
Exactly, yeah know.
Yeah, how boring would it be tobe like perfectly enlightened
all the time.
Exactly yeah, well, if you do,then you're just not going to
reincarnate because you'vereached.

Micah Riot (46:46):
You've reached enlightenment what do you think
happens after you've donereincarnating?

Renée Mak (46:51):
I don't know.
That's a.
It's a good question.
I think you just find peace andthen just wither away back into
the world, as as like a tree orsomething, or grass, but in
many different molecules.

Micah Riot (47:05):
In the course that I took last year, which I'm sure
some of it maybe is based onsome sort of like stolen Asian
something.
But you know, it was kind ofmostly just sort of whitened.
But the teacher spoke about howshe found she you know she
would do these sessions withfolks and one time she entered a
past life with somebody who wasa tree branch laying on the

(47:27):
forest floor for hundreds ofyears.

Renée Mak (47:28):
Oh wow, yeah, that's really cool.
Yeah, that is really cool.
Hopefully no one ever steppedon that tree branch.

Micah Riot (47:37):
Or if they did.
You know, it's a tree branch,it's like sturdy, it's fine yeah
.

Renée Mak (47:47):
But I wonder you know it's like, if it's a tree
branch, it's like sturdy, it'sfine, exactly yeah.
But I wonder you know it's likeif you're a tree branch, how do
you die?
What happens?
I think you just slowlydisintegrate, which is kind of
like the nature's way of dyingin your sleep, I suppose.

Micah Riot (47:54):
Yeah, that's uh, it's quite a thought, like it
seems, uh like a prison likething to me, but maybe it is um
the epitome of enlightenment.
You just get to be, just be andnothing else.

Renée Mak (48:06):
You just be and nothing else, and then you get
to just kind of soak in thenature as well.
There was something I wasthinking about just in terms of
back, just to circle back to thetopic around, cultural
appropriation was kind of I'mcurious just in terms of even
your thoughts of it's likeartists versus clients and the

(48:28):
choice to get a tattoo of aspecific motif and the choice to
tattoo in a specific style aswell, and I almost feel like
there's a bit moreresponsibility on the artist
side where, even for myself,like I don't mind seeing Asian
style tattoos on non-Asianpeople, because I don't know
that person's personal story, Idon't know if they may have

(48:50):
lived in Asia for a long time,they may have a lot of deep
resonance with the culture fordifferent reasons, but I think
it's just, you know, you hadkind of talked about power
dynamics and I think that'ssomething that's really
important, where when we enterinto the industry as an artist
and this becomes a job and thereis a bit of transaction that's
coming in and you are making aliving from it.
I think this is where it gets alittle bit more nuanced and

(49:12):
where that discussion needs tohappen.
Where you know, for myself is Iwould never tattoo indigenous
motifs because indigenous peopleand artists are so oppressed in
Canada already and probably inother parts of the world.
So it's you know, I would notfeel ethically right making a
profit on something that comesfrom a culture where they're

(49:34):
already being oppressed, and Ithink that's kind of a question
that needs to happen withartists.
Is you know, where does that,where does that exist within the
environment that you live in?

Micah Riot (49:44):
Because it's going to look different for every
environment right For sure, thecontext is going to be different
.
The types of people around youthat are experiencing oppression
are going to be different,exactly.

Renée Mak (49:55):
Yeah.

Micah Riot (49:56):
Yeah, and I mean, sometimes as an artist it's a,
you know, sometimes it's aneasier choice to make right Like
sometimes it's really clear.
Know, sometimes it's an easier,uh, choice to make right like
sometimes it's really clear,sometimes it's less clear.
Um, somebody recently, a womanwho was who's, I believe she's
half mexican and she wantedthose mexican like flags you
know that they're cut out flags,um, and we talked about it some

(50:17):
and I was like, well, is theremaybe a way you can get this
from somebody who is, who sharesyour heritage?
And because she wanted to dosome.
I do a lot of abstract work andthat's kind of what a lot of
people come to me for.
And she was like, well, I wantyour abstract work, but I also
want these flags, and you know.
And I was like I don't know,it's like think about it.
And she was like, oh, I'm goingto Mexico, I'm do this for me.

(50:47):
And so she did.
She went to mexico and she gotthe flag part there and then
came back and had me do theabstract work.
And that was kind of easy,right.
Because she was like, let methink about it, I'm open to
thinking about it.
Oh, I'm gonna go to mexico, likeI'll take this opportunity and
I'll, you know, go to the placewhere my ancestors are from and
do this the way that it shouldbe done.
Um, and somebody else, uh, youknow.
Then I have a client who isindigenous and mexican.
She's an older woman um, notnot too much older, but she's

(51:07):
middle-aged and she has beencoming to me for 16 years and
I'm the only person she's everbeen tattooed by that's amazing
yeah, and so she.
You know, we're working on umkind of first we had different
pieces happening and then wekind of started piecing them
together into like more of asleeve and I doing some work on
her chest and kind of all overher body right over 16 years,

(51:28):
and she wanted different, moreculturally specific things.
But she is so set on me, youknow, I wasn't going to be like
go find somebody else, you know.
Yeah, and so with her it's, andI'm like okay, you're an
indigenous mexican person,you're very aware of your own
culture, your own self, likeyou're not ignorant, you're.
You know what I mean.

(51:49):
So yeah, yeah it's.
I mean, but yeah, I totallyagree with you like white people
should not profit from the artand culture of um oppressed
folks yeah, and that's always aninteresting one because I think
it's.

Renée Mak (52:10):
This is a topic I've been thinking about a lot is
just like my space in in justbeing a person of color, and for
a long time I didn't evendefine myself as a person of
color because I didn't feel likemy experiences were racialized
enough as opposed to black andindigenous folks, especially in
Canada as well in the UnitedStates, and that's something
that's you know.
When I, when I started readingmore about the model minority
myth and where it comes from, Istarted to deeply understand a

(52:31):
little bit more of theexperiences that Asian folks
have.
And now I do consider myself asa person of color and I also
understand that the modelminority myth was purposely
fabricated to drive a wedgebetween folks of various
cultures that weren't white andanything.
That's always something that'skind of interesting as well, as
you do see a lot of folks whoaren't of Asian heritage

(52:52):
tattooing in Asian styles andand that's always like it makes
me a bit uncomfortable, justbecause I feel like folks should
choose to tattoo in otherstyles and not profit.
But then I also understand thatAsian folks, especially in
westernized nations, often arein a socioeconomic privilege
space.
But then we have to dig deeperinto it as well and understand

(53:16):
well that comes from theimmigration policies that exist
that are only allowing folks ofa certain socioeconomic class
with educational background tobe able to come to these
countries as well, whereas ifyou actually go to asia, there's
a lot of deep poverty thatexists, and poverty that is you
can't even compare it to povertyin north america.
So I think that's always kindof like a difficult one to be

(53:38):
able to straddle and I neverwant to tell artists what they
can and cannot do.
But I just I hope that artistswill just kind of ask themselves
a little bit more criticaldiscourse of why do I want to
tattoo in this style?
What does it mean to me?
And you know, am I taking workfrom somebody where this motif
actually means a lot more tothem?

Micah Riot (53:56):
I mean, I wish you know the, but the kind of
majority of tattoo culture like,if you're even like looking
online at I don't know, populartattoo podcasts, right run by
big name dudes and like the waythey speak.
They don't give a shit.
They don't give a shit aboutanything but making money.

Renée Mak (54:13):
Yeah I think it will change, hopefully I'm hopeful.

Micah Riot (54:17):
I mean it's changing in the sense that there's less
of them and more of us, and I'mputting us in a category of like
queer and not born with maleprivilege and not raised in um
specific places of privilege ofmoney and education.
Um, like I'm an immigrant.
I came here when I was 12 yearsold you know, like so us

(54:38):
meeting people with differentexperiences other than straight
male tattoo artists yes, mostlywhite, yeah, and I mean they're
scared.
You see them.
You see them talking shit yousee all these baby tattoo
artists, like with their privatestudios, like the, the kind of
the tropes that they've inventedabout.
Yeah, how much like we suck andthey roll and yeah how we don't
deserve our clients and our youknow, if we charge a higher

(55:01):
rate than them.
Um, and like, the reason I haveto charge a higher rate than
them is because you know I have.

Renée Mak (55:05):
I have more overhead because I'm spending money on a
private studio and I'm spendingmoney on like snacks for my
clients and blankets for myclients and all those kinds of
things yeah, I kind of see it as, like they they'll go the way
of blockbuster, where you eitheradapt because the world is
adapting or you will becomeblockbuster you're talking about
the business of Blockbusterthat just died.

(55:26):
Yes, the actual business ofBlockbuster.
I think there might be onestill in existence in the United
.

Micah Riot (55:32):
States.
I know it's like a relic.

Renée Mak (55:33):
Yeah, I think they have a Twitter account, still
something like that.
Amazing, how old are you?

Micah Riot (55:39):
I'm 37 myself.
Okay, okay, I would not haveknown at all.
I would have been like, likeyou could be 25, I know I got
those.

Renée Mak (55:46):
I got the, the genetics that just don't age
until I look 80 amazing.
Yeah, I'll turn 80 and thenI'll look 100 and then you, then
you'll have the.

Micah Riot (55:57):
You know the trouble of being very wise, exactly.
Yes, people come to you andkiss your feet and yeah, I will
be the tree branch on the flooryeah, that's next lifetime, that
is yes, if I do well in thislifetime, yeah, yeah how do you
feel as a queer person of coloruh, newer to the tattoo culture,

(56:18):
and also, like I'm gonna assume, that canada, the canadian
scene, is a little differentfrom the scene here, and I don't
know if that's true.
I don't know.

Renée Mak (56:27):
Yeah, I don't have enough experience outside of
Canada, but I I feel deeplysupported in my locale and and I
will identify like I live inVancouver, which is, you know,
one of Canada's larger cities.
It is also West coast, so it isalso one of the more
progressive cities there's.
There's a very rich queerculture here.

(56:49):
There's a lot of asian folks onthe west coast as well and a
lot of asian folks who areinvolved in a lot of critical
discourse and just being able toidentify that.
You know, asian people'sracialized experience does exist
and here are what here is whatit looks like.
I feel really deeply supportedjust in terms of being like a
person of color and also being aqueer person.

(57:10):
And and I think it's like I'mlucky because I am in Vancouver
and that's where my career isstarting right now is that you
know I'm the next week I'm goingto like a femme queer oriented
space to shadow a tattoo artistand I what's the space?
It's called the northerncollective.

Micah Riot (57:29):
Okay I'm always like thinking about places to go and
um guest you should definitelycome up here and guest.

Renée Mak (57:35):
We're in the same time zone, so you won't even
have to worry about I mean, I'mnot even worried about that,
it's primarily, you know, I wantto go places where I can find
my people and right comfortableand yeah you know, learn
something from the folks aroundyeah, vancouver's really great.
Just um, I tattooed uh, Iguessed at one place in Toronto,
which wasn't an amazingexperience and I think that was

(57:56):
more just uh.
I, you know, was just lookingfor a place to be able to tattoo
, um, and they had a bed thatwas available.
It was within my price range tobe able to rent, so I just kind
of went for it.
Uh, and it wasn't an amazingexperience, it was an affirming
experience of.
These are the types of places Idon't want to be involved in.
This is the type of person Idon't want to be as well.

(58:20):
Um, so I think, just with everybad experience, there's always
opportunities just to be able toaffirm.
I never want to show up likethis, because this is how it
made me feel when this personshowed up this way.
Um, but I do.
I, as, as far as I know,toronto's got a fairly good
active queer scene as well inthe in the tattoo industry, um,
but in vancouver it's, we have alot of really really great

(58:41):
artists and a lot of great likeasian tattoo artists as well
that are queer.
So there's a couple ofcollectives that exist here that
are specifically like queerAsian collectives, which is
really cool.

Micah Riot (58:51):
And the collectives are members from different shops
, Like y'all just kind of hangout together Like that's a novel
idea for me.
I'm like we don't have anyfucking collectives Like people.

Renée Mak (59:00):
Yeah, it's more.
It's more.
Rent is really expensive here.
So people just kind of bandtogether to you know, you'll,
you'll have like a privatestudio that is this many square
feet, and then you'll just asartists you just kind of band
together, be like all right,we're going to share this space,
share rents and then share thebeds as well.
So myself, I, I share myprivate studio with another
queer asian artist as well andwe've known each other for many

(59:22):
years.
I I reached out to her eons agowhen she was like she does hand
poke tattoos and then I wasjust starting to get interested
in tattoos.
We became friends and then wejust kind of started thinking
about hey, like our work ethicreally aligns, our values really
align, maybe we want to sharean art studio together.
And then one just kind of cameup, so it was perfect.

(59:44):
It almost felt reallyserendipitous.
So I studio together, and thenone just kind of came up, so it
was perfect.
it almost felt reallyserendipitous, so I feel very
lucky there, yeah, and then, uh,we actually tattooed at um it
was.
It was called another gaymarket, so that was just a few
weeks ago.
It was a completely like queeroriented market and it was held
at sailor circle, which is um anindigenous owned community
venue, and that was really cool.
So, yeah, there's.

(01:00:04):
I don't know what the scene islike in oakland, but we have
like a very vibrant queer scenehere, so you're always welcome
to come and visit yeah, I wouldlove to do that.

Micah Riot (01:00:13):
Yeah, I would love to do that.
I'd love.
I will ask you later for likenames and stuff to write down.
I was gonna say if you areinterested in coming to the
united states to guest my rec, Imean you could come to my space
if you wanted.
To.
The issue with my privatestudios I don't have a huge
following and so I think it'sharder for guest artists to get

(01:00:35):
appointments because, yeah, ifyou don't have a big following
and you start to post, it's justnot going to get as much reach.
But I would be happy to makespace for you if you wanted to
come down here.
But I was going to say Iguested at Butterfat Studios in
Chicago last year.
Okay, butterfat, veryspecifically because Esther
Garcia, who owns it, is somebodyI've been following since I was

(01:00:55):
a baby tattoo artist.
I think she's incredible.
And she is really interested inhow melanin skin interacts with
color and she does studies onthat and she experiments and you
know very respectful ways whereshe offers like other options
besides, you know, like ifsomeone's really dark skin.

Renée Mak (01:01:13):
Mm-hmm.

Micah Riot (01:01:14):
You can have red or green, that's it.
You know like she really justlike takes a lot of Time and
energy to like explore,experiment, learn about pigment,
about skin.

Renée Mak (01:01:24):
Mm-hmm.

Micah Riot (01:01:25):
She like blew my mind many times when I was there
for the week.
Um, but her space, you know she, the space she owns, it's all
women and it's a private studioand they have a following.
So I got a lot of appointmentsjust from posting um posting
with their.
Yeah with their space.
But she's brilliant and herspace is so beautiful and like
lovely I would love to keep thatin mind.

Renée Mak (01:01:45):
Uh, I feel a little scared to go to the United
States these days.
I understand, yes, but I willeventually come back.

Micah Riot (01:01:54):
You are always welcome here, thank you, I want
to, I would like to.

Renée Mak (01:01:59):
I feel nervous to guest still at this stage of my
career, but I know that I willget there eventually.

Micah Riot (01:02:05):
I mean I feel nervous at this stage in my
career.
You know, know that I will getthere eventually.
I mean I feel nervous at thisstage in my career, you know,
and I, you know the few timesthat I've approached shop owners
, every time I send an emailI'll be like I won't hear from
them or I'll hear from them andI'll be like no right, you know,
like I'm not good enough to beat their shop and like,
literally every time they'vebeen like yeah, anytime, like I
time, like I don't think it'sbecause of me.
I think shop owners tend to, ifthey have the space, they tend

(01:02:25):
to want guest artists to comethrough renee.
Thank you so much for coming onthe podcast.
I feel like we could talk allday about these topics and other
topics.

Renée Mak (01:02:35):
Um, I really appreciate your willingness and
um, I, yeah, I feel like Ishould have a follow-up yeah,
thank you so much for having meon this and just being someone
in the industry that is havingthe discourse that needs to
happen and then creating aplatform to be able to actually
bring it out into the world,because if the discourse is
happening behind closed doors,sometimes it doesn't go anywhere

(01:02:56):
and it doesn't make an impactin the industry.
So I really appreciate just thework that you're doing, your
energy and just who you are as aperson Seems pretty rad.

Micah Riot (01:03:05):
Thank you, so I appreciate your appreciation.
I feel like I you know not.
I have not heard a lot ofpeople like say out loud that
they clients, yes, but not othertattoo artists.

Renée Mak (01:03:16):
And okay.

Micah Riot (01:03:18):
So the last question for you for the episode is what
are some small things?
A small thing or some smallthings that have been making you
happy lately?

Renée Mak (01:03:26):
I think some small things has just been time with
friends and slowing down enoughto be able to actually really
enjoy that time with friends.
I think we live in a societythat's so fast paced that you'll
be like I have an hour forcoffee and then you're kind of
running to the next appointment,Whereas when we're able to slow

(01:03:47):
down because as a baby tattooartist, my books aren't like
booked solid sort of thing so itmeans that I've actually been
able to slow down in life alittle bit I'm not as busy, I'm
not working full time in thetech industry right now and it's
allowed me to just connect withmy friends in a deeper and more
meaningful manner, which has alot to me that's making me happy
to hear that you have been ableto set up your life um with

(01:04:09):
some space in it, without thejudgment to your survival yeah,
I actually saw your instagrampost today in your in your story
and it's like if we, we couldall just work 15 hours a week
and then like we really couldyeah I was very much not for a
few billionaires, yeah, yeah, itwas very much a thumbs up, I
guess.