Welcome to Part 3 of my soul-stirring conversation with purpose coach Anita Čavrag. This one is my personal favourite.
In this final chapter of our three-part series, we explore the filters through which you experience reality and how they impact your sense of purpose, satisfaction, and what you believe is possible for your life and work.
This episode is a masterclass in reframing your internal dialogue, breaking free from inherited “shoulds,” and stepping into a new, empowered relationship with work and self.
If you’ve ever felt trapped by fear, doubt, or uncertainty about your next steps, this episode will help you soften those edges and begin to ask the powerful question: what if something more is possible?
Key Topics Discussed:
- How unconscious narratives and language shape your sense of purpose
- The power of “what if” as a tool for gentle transformation
- Reframing fear and anxiety through playful, curious exploration
- Recognizing the filters that limit possibility—and how to meet them with compassion
- The difference between superficial “positive thinking” and true paradigm shift
- Why transformation often begins with discomfort—but doesn’t have to stay there
- When to pause on strategic questions and focus on inner clarity
- Encouragement for those feeling stuck in the “in-between” of change
This episode wraps up an incredibly rich series that has offered deep insight into purpose, alignment, and inner truth. If you haven't listened to the first two parts of this interview, you can use the links below, or scroll back to episodes 26 and 27 on the Inner Purpose Podcast.
Resources & Links:
- Connect with Anita Čavrag – Website
- Follow Anita on Facebook
- Follow Anita on LinkedIn
- Part 1 of this interview: Why Success Feels Empty: Reclaiming Purpose at Work
- Part 2 of 3: Ignoring Your Calling: The Cost of Misalignment at Work and What to Do About It
Don’t forget to rate, review, and share the podcast if you enjoyed this episode. It helps others discover the show and join the conversation. Until next ti
CONNECT WITH MICHELLE:
- Instagram @michelledowker_wellbalance
- Facebook @michelledowkerwellbalance
- Email michelle@michelledowker.com
FREE:
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Disclaimer:
This podcast is for informational & inspirational purposes only. Nothing shared is intended as medical, psychological, or personalized advice, and should not be used as a substitute for professional support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michelle Dowker (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to another episode
of the Inner Purpose Podcast.
Today's episode is part threeof a three-part series, and this
one is my favorite.
I had a wonderful and deepconversation with Anita Chavrag.
Anita is a coach forhigh-achieving leaders and
founders who've built impressivecareers or businesses but they
(00:21):
feel unfulfilled and sense it'stime for a profound change, even
if they're not sure what theytruly want.
She helps them reconnect withwho they really are, get clear
on what would actually lightthem up, and design work that
aligns with their purpose andtheir true nature.
Her approach blends a master'sin psychology, nlp, existential
(00:46):
coaching, a decade-long careerin HR and a lifelong obsession
with the human mind, plus herown lived experience of walking
away from a prestigious butstifling path to follow her true
calling.
We had a lengthy and deepconversation that was rich with
(01:08):
so much magic.
I've decided to separate ourconversation into three
different podcast episodes sothat you can take in the
richness and depth of each oneon your own time and then come
back for another level of depthwith each of these three podcast
episodes.
(01:28):
I will link each of them in theshow notes so that you can
continue to listen one afteranother as you choose.
The first two parts of thisthree-part series are linked in
the show notes and you can gothere if you want to listen to
that first before you listen tothis one.
However, it's not necessary.
In episode one we talked aboutpurpose and meaning, what's the
(01:51):
difference between purpose andpassion and what are the things
to consider about your work ifit's not feeling purposeful
right now.
In the second of the threeepisodes, we talked about what
happens if you don't actuallyfollow your purpose.
We talk about maybe some of theexistential signs and even
(02:13):
physical health signs that canoccur when you're not actually
following your purpose, whenyou're not actually
understanding how you'redesigned or what optimal career
is right for you, and, if youignore those whispers, what that
can turn into over time,especially if you are a highly
(02:34):
sensitive or neurocomplex person.
And in today's episode we getdeep into talking about reality.
We talk about the filters ofyour unconscious mind and how
they might be affecting howyou're seeing your level of
purpose, how you'reunderstanding, meaning how you
might be seeing the options thatare on the table and what to
(02:58):
consider so that you can alignyourself to your most purposeful
work and feel deeply satisfiedwhile doing it.
This part is my favorite and Ican't wait for you to listen.
So let's get started with partthree of the interview.
Here we pick up where we leftoff in part two.
(03:18):
I hope that you enjoy.
Anita Čavrag (03:25):
Maybe one thing that you asked me earlier, like
what is the one thing that wehaven't talked about?
I think it's really importantto understand that everything
that we think is basically astory we're telling ourselves.
There's reality, and thenthere's our interpretation of
reality, and our subjectiveexperience happens inside of
(03:46):
that interpretation, and thatinterpretation isn't entirely in
our control.
Like, we have inherited thatnarrative.
You know, it's a socialconstruct that we inherited the
rules, the shoulds, the musts.
All of that is part of ournarrative, and it's the case of
(04:08):
not being able to see the labelfrom inside the jar.
You don't perceive yournarrative because you live it.
It feels like the truth, right,and so it takes some elevation
to get outside of that narrative, to see it for what it is, to
ask some curious questions andchallenge what you usually take
(04:28):
for granted.
Right, if you say somethingthat sounds like the truth,
maybe like ask a question, butwho says, for example, who would
hire me?
Like I only worked in thiscompany for the past 10 years?
Who would hire me?
Like, who says right, who saysthat nobody would hire you?
Or if you say something like oh, people like me can never,
(04:52):
these are really good signs thatyou're stuck in a certain
limiting narrative, right.
Always, never, everybody, noone, should, must, can't those
are some of the words that cometo my mind that indicate that
this narrative is limiting.
I mean, we all have a narrative.
(05:13):
It's impossible to not have anarrative, right?
We all have a story, but thegreat thing is that we're not
condemned to stay in the samenarrative until the rest of our
lives, and so a big part of thework I do personally and I think
all coaches do in one way oranother is expanding this
narrative to include otherthings that are possible.
(05:38):
Right, to expand our narrativeabout what is possible, to
question things that we treat astruths.
Right, and shake us out of ourusual perspective, because when
that happens, our relationshipwith our reality changes, our
relationship with work changes,our relationship with ourself
begins to change, and that'swhere we experience reality.
(06:02):
It's determined by ourrelationship with the concepts,
with the things that weexperience, and so I think it's
important to be a little bitskeptical when it comes to what
we think is the truth and howthe world works, and be open to
question that Is that really so?
And allow that a differentreality is possible.
Michelle Dowker (06:27):
Makes me think about you know how Wayne Dyer
said when you change the way youlook at things, the things you
look at change.
Anita Čavrag (06:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And I know that some peoplemight take this as a form of
self-manipulation, like, oh, I'mjust going to change my
perspective and suddenlyeverything's going to be great.
Like that's not going to work.
And I agree, it's not going towork, right, you can't.
That's not how it works.
It's not about deceivingyourself to start believing
(06:57):
things that you secretly don'tbelieve in.
That's not how I look at it.
It's about being open to thefact that one event can be told
in many different ways and thatyou choose the way in which you
look at the event and that,recognizing that you do have a
(07:18):
filter.
You're not seeing objectivetruth.
Whatever we are experiencing isnot the objective truth.
It's going through a certainfilter, and I think the crown of
personal development is meetingthat filter, getting to know
that filter.
What is my filter?
(07:38):
For example?
My filter is whatever new thingI try to do, my first thought
is, oh, I can't do that.
Oh, that's, I just have a can'tdo attitude.
I mean, I'm aware of that.
I have to work with that.
I have to remind myself that Istill I don't know how to do it.
Yet I have to interfere with mynarrative to add this new word
(07:59):
yet which changes the wholemeaning of that sentence, right?
So being aware of our ownfilters, the way that we skew
our reality, the way that wedistort reality, that I think is
really, really important.
Because as long as we treateverything, that every thought
that we have, as the truth thisis how it is then it's really
(08:24):
hard to break away from thescript, it's really hard to see
new possibilities, right?
Because then we are tooattached to our worldview.
The language is reveals a lot.
I think it it pays attention.
It's really important to payattention to language.
It's really useful to do that,to catch yourself saying certain
(08:44):
words, because that reallyreveals what you truly think.
And it's magnificent to me howjust changing one word slightly
can change your emotions in thatvery instance, like I can't do
it versus I don't know how to doit, yet, my God, that's like a
(09:05):
completely, completely differentemotions just by changing that
one part of the sentence.
Michelle Dowker (09:14):
Absolutely.
There's so many things thatcome to mind from that.
I mean, that's actually onething I commonly you know this
is something that comes evenfrom my naturopathic doctor
clinical years is when someonesays the word should, you know,
I always tell them when youshould on yourself.
It just makes a big mess and Isuggest for them, if they catch
(09:36):
themselves saying should, um, tosee if they can replace that
with I would like to, or I getto they you know I should be
doing this.
If instead they say I would liketo do this and then they
realize you know what I actuallywouldn't like to, then it gives
you that opportunity toreevaluate, or if they realize
(10:00):
that they would like to, then itchanges the whole energy behind
what they're saying.
Anita Čavrag (10:06):
Then it changes the whole energy behind what
they're saying.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you have a background in NLP?
Because that sounds like likean NLP intervention.
Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic.
Michelle Dowker (10:17):
And that's the thing right With NLP.
They talk about those, thosefilters in the unconscious mind,
and most of those were set up along time ago in our
developmental years.
Right, that's the thing is, wecan shift them, we can get to
know them and understand them.
Like you've mentioned, Ilearned an equation that I that
really stuck with me, and thatis experience plus meaning
(10:42):
equals belief.
So you have an experience, youput meaning to it and it creates
a belief through which, like alens that you're looking through
.
And if you can change themeaning that you put to the
experience, you can change thebelief and the filter through
which you're looking at it.
Anita Čavrag (10:59):
Oh, that's so powerful.
Yeah, because you can't changethe actual experience that
happened, it's done.
But you can.
You can always.
There's a great saying you canalways choose a different past.
I think that is that is what ittries to capture, right?
You can put a different meaningto what already happened and
(11:20):
then have a completely differentrelationship with that
experience and a differentbelief.
Michelle Dowker (11:26):
Yeah, there's, you know, two other things and I
think you probably know thistoo with an NLP background is
you know you've got yourunconscious mind and you've got
your conscious mind and you knowyour unconscious mind is really
ruling 95% of your thoughts,your behaviors, your actions.
So, even if you consciouslywant something different, if
(11:47):
that filter in your unconsciousmind is still looking at things
in a different way, that's goingto be the thing that wins out
every time.
Yeah, right, even if you quote,unquote, know better, like you
were saying earlier about.
Well, you know, I just, I justneed to think about this
differently.
If you're just doing that atthe level of the conscious mind
(12:08):
and your conscious thoughts, youknow affirmations or whatever,
then it's not always going togive you that long-term paradigm
shift like you were mentioning.
And the other thing about thatis you know, even with your
thoughts and what you'rethinking and your judgments and
what you're thinking aboutsomething.
(12:29):
It kind of makes me think ofMichael Singer's work.
I don't know if you know MichaelSinger.
No, I haven't heard of him.
He wrote the Untethered Soul.
He mentions you are not yourthoughts, you're the one
observing your thoughts.
Yeah, yeah, right, instead ofgetting wrapped up in well,
thinking that it's got to bethis way, or your shoulds, or
(12:50):
the inner critic and all ofthose things.
You're not any of those thingsand that can be a challenge to
take a step back and recognizeyou're just the one sitting and
he turns at the seat of yoursoul just watching it all happen
.
Anita Čavrag (13:05):
Yeah, terms of the seed of your soul, just
watching it all happen.
Yeah, the change that happensis when you're an observer of
your reality.
Right, you experience theinterpretation of the reality.
Right, you're the observer andthe point is to become a more
powerful observer.
I think a very gentle way to dothat kind of work with yourself
(13:26):
that's absolutely doable anddoesn't require any sort of
affirmation or faking it untilyou're making it or something,
is just asking yourself what if?
Just opening that door ofpossibility that things might be
different?
You don't have to look atyourself in the mirror and say
(13:46):
I'm beautiful, I can do whateverI want.
Just saying things that youdon't believe in is not going to
make you believe them, right,but kind of opening the
possibility that things might bedifferent by gently just asking
curious questions.
What if it weren't true?
What if it were possible?
Just this, what if?
(14:09):
Oh, doing this is hard, I don'tknow.
Starting a business is hard.
What if it were fun?
What if it were also reallydeeply fulfilling?
How would it look like if itwere a bit easier?
And if it's hard, is thatreally a deal breaker?
What flavor of hard am I talkingabout here?
(14:31):
Is it hard because it takes along time?
Is it hard because it's hardwork?
Is it hard because it'semotionally hard?
What kind of hard?
I mean, life is hard, okay, butwhat kind of hard.
Just shaking them up a littlebit with what if?
With just playing with thepossibilities, I think is a
(14:51):
great and gentle way to startchanging the meaning of whatever
you're experiencing in themoment.
So you're experiencing fear oranxiety of change, right, and
just saying, okay, now this isnot going to mean fear and
anxiety, it's going to meansomething else.
It's not going to work likethat forcefully, but just asking
(15:12):
yourself, what, if it could bedifferent?
What, what would it look like?
I think this childlikecuriosity is can really go
really far in helping us to tobecome a different observer of
our own reality, of ourexperiences.
Michelle Dowker (15:29):
I love that.
Yeah, I think those are reallygreat.
I know you're not intoproviding tips and tricks right,
we both do the deeper work.
However, I think those arereally great insights to keep in
mind for anyone really, andespecially if you are on this
path and you know you're in thisplace where you're feeling
(15:50):
disillusioned and you're feelinglike you know I'm successful.
However, I'm feeling insidethat there's something still
missing.
Yeah, there's something stillmore.
Well, what if there is more?
Anita Čavrag (16:03):
Yeah, yeah, and we tend to perceive that moment as
a very dramatic moment.
I mean, I remember my ownexperience.
It was really painful, it wasdramatic, and I remember my
coaching teacher.
She said something like thebigger the drama, the bigger the
opportunity, and thatcompletely flipped my
(16:24):
perspective.
I started thinking about oh myGod, what's on the other side of
this?
I'm really like deep in hellright now.
But when I get out, oh boy, whenI get out, who knows what's on
the other side, because it'salways darkest before the dawn,
and just thinking thattransformation really usually is
(16:45):
painful.
It is hard to transform, towake up, to shift your life
around, to ask yourself thesequestions, but the reward on the
other side is worth it.
And it's hard to see that whenyou're inside.
But I think everybody knowsfrom experience that after you
go through such hardship,through emotional turmoil, you
(17:08):
do get outside stronger.
So this isn't even somethingyou need to believe, like
sometimes people say, justbelieve you've lived this.
Everybody has lived thisexperience.
Just it was a different problem.
Maybe All right, but everybodyhas this experience where you go
through this emotional turmoiland you know it's an opportunity
(17:29):
for something, some growth iswaiting for you on the other
side.
A more authentic life is on theother side, and I think that's
to me that at least was a reallycomforting thought.
Michelle Dowker (17:45):
I love that perspective right.
The bigger the challenge, thebigger the growth and
opportunity on the other side ofit.
I like to use the concept ofchallenges and going through
something as the friction, thatkind of like, is the thing
that's required to create thepolish on the other side.
Anita Čavrag (18:04):
Yeah, and you know , the bigger the friction, the
the bigger bright, shiny resultson the other side of it well, I
love your metaphor, just so I'mlike babbling here and you just
say one metaphor and youexplain it all in just five
words well, that came from yousaying all of that.
Michelle Dowker (18:22):
So good teamwork, right, and that's
that's the thing as well.
Nothing is ever static.
Everything is always in fluxand flow and changing.
So you know, as with all things, this too shall change.
So if you are in the middle ofa challenge, you're feeling the
(18:44):
turmoil, you're feeling all ofthe angst.
You know it will pass and themore that you can, like you
mentioned earlier, surrender toit with trust and faith of this
process, rather than pushing itaway or running away from it,
because that's just going toelongate the process.
Yeah, yeah, and that's thething.
(19:06):
I don't know where your idealclient is on the journey, if
they're open and willing yet totake that journey and go within.
If they are or they aren't, Doyou have any insight or
suggestion for them,encouragement where they're at
right now and you know, to helpthem through addressing this
(19:28):
point in their journey andmoving through it?
Anita Čavrag (19:32):
Yeah, I think there's also a great saying when
you're in hell, just keepwalking.
If you're walking through hell,just keep walking.
I don't know who said that.
Maybe Winston Churchill, healways had these really smart
ones.
Maybe Winston Churchill, healways had these really smart
ones.
I would also like to invitethem to ask a.
Really it's a crazy question toask.
(19:53):
Right, you're in the middle ofthis process.
It's horrible, you don't knowwhat you should do, you're not
happy, right?
What if that could be fun?
Like, what if this could be afun process of coming home to
yourself, exploring yourselfagain?
Yeah, um, it doesn't mean thatall the problems, all the pain
(20:15):
is going to go away, but what ifit could also be fun?
What if it could be somethingyou know, a playful activity?
What if you could use this, uh,as an opportunity to experiment
?
Right it's, it's a, it's a sortof an awakening.
So, yeah, I'm just thinking,you know, does this even have to
(20:35):
be that painful all the timeand just be painful and nothing
else but painful?
I think it can also be excitingand you're kind of waking up
from this sort of stupor andyou're feeling alive again.
And, yeah, it hurts, but atleast you're alive, you're
breathing, you're kicking,you're feeling alive again and,
(20:56):
yeah, it hurts, but you're atleast you're alive, you're
breathing, you're, you'rekicking, you're, you're striving
for something else, right?
That's more than most peoplecan say, right?
So, yeah, I think of thisprocess is almost like a sacred
process of awakening, becomingmore autonomous and more aware
and ultimately, it's a beautifulthing and more aware and
(21:18):
ultimately it's a beautifulthing that which is happening.
Michelle Dowker (21:26):
I love that.
It's so true, it's sacred, it'simportant, it's beautiful and
once you're on the other sideyou know how worth it was.
There's no going back.
And, like you said, there's nogoing back and, like you said,
it doesn't necessarily have tobe all trudging through the muck
.
It can be a process with playand there can be enjoyment from
it.
And also what you've mentionedabout you know, with that quote
(21:57):
it kind of made me think about Ithink it's bison, the animal
bison.
If there's a storm approaching,they don't run away from the
storm, they turn around and runinto the storm because they know
that that's the quickest way toget out the other side into
good weather again, oh wow.
Anita Čavrag (22:16):
I didn't know that Right Instead of running away
from it, face it head on.
It's the quickest way to getthrough it.
Yeah, there's no way ofrepressing this.
At least I haven't seen anybodysuccessfully.
Just ignore this, the callingfrom the inside that you know,
the calling that you hear, thatyou want to.
You need to change something.
It just keeps getting louder,it might even get dangerous,
(22:41):
health wise, and it's yeah, it'sjust not going away.
So, yeah, it makes sense tolisten to this voice and ask it
like what does it want?
What does it need, need, whereis this coming from?
And surrender to that.
I'm not saying that peopleshould just drop everything and
pursue their passions and you,there is a time to be strategic
(23:05):
about this.
You know to make a plan and allof that.
So people tend to rush to thesestrategic questions.
But how do I make the change?
Who's gonna hire me?
How am I gonna do it?
Um, or like, if they have abusiness and they're they want
to scale, like, but how do Imake the change?
Who's going to hire me?
How am I going to do it?
Or like, if they have abusiness and they want to scale,
but how am I going to do it?
Like I need to hire a team.
I don't want to have a team.
It's too much, I don't knowwhat I want.
(23:25):
They get very strategic verysoon.
I think that's rushing throughthe process doesn't make you go
through it faster.
Right, there's a time for thesequestions, but those are not
the first questions to ask.
The how questions, thestrategic questions, should come
(23:46):
later.
I think that there's deeperinner work to be done first
before you can answer those.
I call them technical questionslike who, how, what, what should
I do?
Sometimes they resolvethemselves just naturally.
Sometimes a lot of them loserelevance, like I had a client
(24:08):
once whose concern was like buthow am I going to?
He was a sales professional,had a really, really good job,
good salary, and he wanted totry something else, also in
sales, but in somethingcompletely different, and he was
worried about losing a part ofhis income.
And just like through our worktogether it was just one session
he realized that's not even anissue Like I have savings, I
(24:32):
don't even need to spend allthat much money.
It was just a narrative that hewas in.
In life you should always earnmore and more and more.
And who says why, what, for?
So not even these money.
Fears are always warranted.
Sometimes they're exaggerated.
So, yeah, a lot of thesestrategic technical questions
(24:55):
kind of like lose relevance ortheir meaning changes or they
become less important or youjust find a way to resolve them.
But if you start with thosequestions before you answered
some deeper questions of like,who am I, what do I even want
authentically beyond what Ithink I should want, then they
(25:17):
are really hard to answer right,and that's why people stay
stuck for years grappling withthose questions and they can't
find an answer.
They don't know what to do, howto do it.
But that's because they justdidn't answer some more
fundamental questions first.
They just didn't answer somemore fundamental questions first
(25:37):
.
Yeah, so slow down to speed up.
Michelle Dowker (25:39):
That's the rule here.
I love that, right.
Getting down to the deeperdepths of things, right?
Instead of just trying toanswer the superficial.
And when you address the thingsunderneath the surface, then
some of those other things justsort themselves out naturally as
part of the process ofaddressing underneath the
(26:01):
surface.
Yeah, absolutely yeah, I loveit.
I love you.
Know we're on the samewavelength.
I love that.
Anita Čavrag (26:11):
Me too.
This is really fun.
Michelle Dowker (26:14):
Now, if somebody wanted to learn more
about you, where could they findyou?
Anita Čavrag (26:20):
Okay, well, I'm on LinkedIn and I'm on Facebook.
I post there every day A lot ofposts about busting some myths
that people usually have aboutwhat it means to be happy at
work or how to find morefulfilling work and, yeah, just
sharing a lot of insights that Idiscovered through my work with
(26:41):
clients or from my personalexperience or from my HR career.
So, facebook or LinkedIn, myname is Anita, the last name is
C-A-V-R-A-G, and I also have awebsite.
It's a very basic website but,yeah, you can find more about my
services there.
It's fireflycareercom Wonderful.
Michelle Dowker (27:05):
And if you want to send me all of that
information, I'll put it in theshow notes so that they can link
to it there.
Yeah, absolutely, this has beena wonderful conversation.
Anita Čavrag (27:17):
Thank you, michelle.
Thank you for having me.
I was really thrilled with yourquestions really
thought-provoking.
We touched on some reallyreally deep, deep questions and
topics.
Yeah, I feel really inspiredright now and grateful that I
had this chance to talk to you.
Yeah, likewise feel reallyinspired right now and I'm
grateful that I had this chanceto talk to you.
Yeah, likewise.
Michelle Dowker (27:39):
Yeah, so this wraps up part three of three of
the wonderful conversation thatI had with Anita Chavarag.
If you haven't yet accessed thefirst two parts of this
interview, you can access thatthrough the link in the show
notes, or you can go directly toepisodes 26 and 27 in the Inner
(28:02):
Purpose podcast and have alisten to that, and you can find
all the information to learnmore about Anita in the show
notes.
I've linked her website and howyou can find her on social
media.
So I hope you enjoyed thisthought-provoking conversation I
had with Anita and, as always,thank you for being here.
(28:24):
Until next time, take care.
Hello and welcome back to another episode
of the Inner Purpose Podcast.
Today's episode is part threeof a three-part series, and this
one is my favorite.
I had a wonderful and deepconversation with Anita Chavrag.
Anita is a coach forhigh-achieving leaders and
founders who've built impressivecareers or businesses but they
(00:21):
feel unfulfilled and sense it'stime for a profound change, even
if they're not sure what theytruly want.
She helps them reconnect withwho they really are, get clear
on what would actually lightthem up, and design work that
aligns with their purpose andtheir true nature.
Her approach blends a master'sin psychology, nlp, existential
(00:46):
coaching, a decade-long careerin HR and a lifelong obsession
with the human mind, plus herown lived experience of walking
away from a prestigious butstifling path to follow her true
calling.
We had a lengthy and deepconversation that was rich with
(01:08):
so much magic.
I've decided to separate ourconversation into three
different podcast episodes sothat you can take in the
richness and depth of each oneon your own time and then come
back for another level of depthwith each of these three podcast
episodes.
(01:28):
I will link each of them in theshow notes so that you can
continue to listen one afteranother as you choose.
The first two parts of thisthree-part series are linked in
the show notes and you can gothere if you want to listen to
that first before you listen tothis one.
However, it's not necessary.
In episode one we talked aboutpurpose and meaning, what's the
(01:51):
difference between purpose andpassion and what are the things
to consider about your work ifit's not feeling purposeful
right now.
In the second of the threeepisodes, we talked about what
happens if you don't actuallyfollow your purpose.
We talk about maybe some of theexistential signs and even
(02:13):
physical health signs that canoccur when you're not actually
following your purpose, whenyou're not actually
understanding how you'redesigned or what optimal career
is right for you, and, if youignore those whispers, what that
can turn into over time,especially if you are a highly
(02:34):
sensitive or neurocomplex person.
And in today's episode we getdeep into talking about reality.
We talk about the filters ofyour unconscious mind and how
they might be affecting howyou're seeing your level of
purpose, how you'reunderstanding, meaning how you
might be seeing the options thatare on the table and what to
(02:58):
consider so that you can alignyourself to your most purposeful
work and feel deeply satisfiedwhile doing it.
This part is my favorite and Ican't wait for you to listen.
So let's get started with partthree of the interview.
Here we pick up where we leftoff in part two.
(03:18):
I hope that you enjoy.
Anita Čavrag (03:25):
Maybe one thing that you asked me earlier, like
what is the one thing that wehaven't talked about?
I think it's really importantto understand that everything
that we think is basically astory we're telling ourselves.
There's reality, and thenthere's our interpretation of
reality, and our subjectiveexperience happens inside of
(03:46):
that interpretation, and thatinterpretation isn't entirely in
our control.
Like, we have inherited thatnarrative.
You know, it's a socialconstruct that we inherited the
rules, the shoulds, the musts.
All of that is part of ournarrative, and it's the case of
(04:08):
not being able to see the labelfrom inside the jar.
You don't perceive yournarrative because you live it.
It feels like the truth, right,and so it takes some elevation
to get outside of that narrative, to see it for what it is, to
ask some curious questions andchallenge what you usually take
(04:28):
for granted.
Right, if you say somethingthat sounds like the truth,
maybe like ask a question, butwho says, for example, who would
hire me?
Like I only worked in thiscompany for the past 10 years?
Who would hire me?
Like, who says right, who saysthat nobody would hire you?
Or if you say something like oh, people like me can never,
(04:52):
these are really good signs thatyou're stuck in a certain
limiting narrative, right.
Always, never, everybody, noone, should, must, can't those
are some of the words that cometo my mind that indicate that
this narrative is limiting.
I mean, we all have a narrative.
(05:13):
It's impossible to not have anarrative, right?
We all have a story, but thegreat thing is that we're not
condemned to stay in the samenarrative until the rest of our
lives, and so a big part of thework I do personally and I think
all coaches do in one way oranother is expanding this
narrative to include otherthings that are possible.
(05:38):
Right, to expand our narrativeabout what is possible, to
question things that we treat astruths.
Right, and shake us out of ourusual perspective, because when
that happens, our relationshipwith our reality changes, our
relationship with work changes,our relationship with ourself
begins to change, and that'swhere we experience reality.
(06:02):
It's determined by ourrelationship with the concepts,
with the things that weexperience, and so I think it's
important to be a little bitskeptical when it comes to what
we think is the truth and howthe world works, and be open to
question that Is that really so?
And allow that a differentreality is possible.
Michelle Dowker (06:27):
Makes me think about you know how Wayne Dyer
said when you change the way youlook at things, the things you
look at change.
Anita Čavrag (06:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And I know that some peoplemight take this as a form of
self-manipulation, like, oh, I'mjust going to change my
perspective and suddenlyeverything's going to be great.
Like that's not going to work.
And I agree, it's not going towork, right, you can't.
That's not how it works.
It's not about deceivingyourself to start believing
(06:57):
things that you secretly don'tbelieve in.
That's not how I look at it.
It's about being open to thefact that one event can be told
in many different ways and thatyou choose the way in which you
look at the event and that,recognizing that you do have a
(07:18):
filter.
You're not seeing objectivetruth.
Whatever we are experiencing isnot the objective truth.
It's going through a certainfilter, and I think the crown of
personal development is meetingthat filter, getting to know
that filter.
What is my filter?
(07:38):
For example?
My filter is whatever new thingI try to do, my first thought
is, oh, I can't do that.
Oh, that's, I just have a can'tdo attitude.
I mean, I'm aware of that.
I have to work with that.
I have to remind myself that Istill I don't know how to do it.
Yet I have to interfere with mynarrative to add this new word
(07:59):
yet which changes the wholemeaning of that sentence, right?
So being aware of our ownfilters, the way that we skew
our reality, the way that wedistort reality, that I think is
really, really important.
Because as long as we treateverything, that every thought
that we have, as the truth thisis how it is then it's really
(08:24):
hard to break away from thescript, it's really hard to see
new possibilities, right?
Because then we are tooattached to our worldview.
The language is reveals a lot.
I think it it pays attention.
It's really important to payattention to language.
It's really useful to do that,to catch yourself saying certain
(08:44):
words, because that reallyreveals what you truly think.
And it's magnificent to me howjust changing one word slightly
can change your emotions in thatvery instance, like I can't do
it versus I don't know how to doit, yet, my God, that's like a
(09:05):
completely, completely differentemotions just by changing that
one part of the sentence.
Michelle Dowker (09:14):
Absolutely.
There's so many things thatcome to mind from that.
I mean, that's actually onething I commonly you know this
is something that comes evenfrom my naturopathic doctor
clinical years is when someonesays the word should, you know,
I always tell them when youshould on yourself.
It just makes a big mess and Isuggest for them, if they catch
(09:36):
themselves saying should, um, tosee if they can replace that
with I would like to, or I getto they you know I should be
doing this.
If instead they say I would liketo do this and then they
realize you know what I actuallywouldn't like to, then it gives
you that opportunity toreevaluate, or if they realize
(10:00):
that they would like to, then itchanges the whole energy behind
what they're saying.
Anita Čavrag (10:06):
Then it changes the whole energy behind what
they're saying.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you have a background in NLP?
Because that sounds like likean NLP intervention.
Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic.
Michelle Dowker (10:17):
And that's the thing right With NLP.
They talk about those, thosefilters in the unconscious mind,
and most of those were set up along time ago in our
developmental years.
Right, that's the thing is, wecan shift them, we can get to
know them and understand them.
Like you've mentioned, Ilearned an equation that I that
really stuck with me, and thatis experience plus meaning
(10:42):
equals belief.
So you have an experience, youput meaning to it and it creates
a belief through which, like alens that you're looking through
.
And if you can change themeaning that you put to the
experience, you can change thebelief and the filter through
which you're looking at it.
Anita Čavrag (10:59):
Oh, that's so powerful.
Yeah, because you can't changethe actual experience that
happened, it's done.
But you can.
You can always.
There's a great saying you canalways choose a different past.
I think that is that is what ittries to capture, right?
You can put a different meaningto what already happened and
(11:20):
then have a completely differentrelationship with that
experience and a differentbelief.
Michelle Dowker (11:26):
Yeah, there's, you know, two other things and I
think you probably know thistoo with an NLP background is
you know you've got yourunconscious mind and you've got
your conscious mind and you knowyour unconscious mind is really
ruling 95% of your thoughts,your behaviors, your actions.
So, even if you consciouslywant something different, if
(11:47):
that filter in your unconsciousmind is still looking at things
in a different way, that's goingto be the thing that wins out
every time.
Yeah, right, even if you quote,unquote, know better, like you
were saying earlier about.
Well, you know, I just, I justneed to think about this
differently.
If you're just doing that atthe level of the conscious mind
(12:08):
and your conscious thoughts, youknow affirmations or whatever,
then it's not always going togive you that long-term paradigm
shift like you were mentioning.
And the other thing about thatis you know, even with your
thoughts and what you'rethinking and your judgments and
what you're thinking aboutsomething.
(12:29):
It kind of makes me think ofMichael Singer's work.
I don't know if you know MichaelSinger.
No, I haven't heard of him.
He wrote the Untethered Soul.
He mentions you are not yourthoughts, you're the one
observing your thoughts.
Yeah, yeah, right, instead ofgetting wrapped up in well,
thinking that it's got to bethis way, or your shoulds, or
(12:50):
the inner critic and all ofthose things.
You're not any of those thingsand that can be a challenge to
take a step back and recognizeyou're just the one sitting and
he turns at the seat of yoursoul just watching it all happen
.
Anita Čavrag (13:05):
Yeah, terms of the seed of your soul, just
watching it all happen.
Yeah, the change that happensis when you're an observer of
your reality.
Right, you experience theinterpretation of the reality.
Right, you're the observer andthe point is to become a more
powerful observer.
I think a very gentle way to dothat kind of work with yourself
(13:26):
that's absolutely doable anddoesn't require any sort of
affirmation or faking it untilyou're making it or something,
is just asking yourself what if?
Just opening that door ofpossibility that things might be
different?
You don't have to look atyourself in the mirror and say
(13:46):
I'm beautiful, I can do whateverI want.
Just saying things that youdon't believe in is not going to
make you believe them, right,but kind of opening the
possibility that things might bedifferent by gently just asking
curious questions.
What if it weren't true?
What if it were possible?
Just this, what if?
(14:09):
Oh, doing this is hard, I don'tknow.
Starting a business is hard.
What if it were fun?
What if it were also reallydeeply fulfilling?
How would it look like if itwere a bit easier?
And if it's hard, is thatreally a deal breaker?
What flavor of hard am I talkingabout here?
(14:31):
Is it hard because it takes along time?
Is it hard because it's hardwork?
Is it hard because it'semotionally hard?
What kind of hard?
I mean, life is hard, okay, butwhat kind of hard.
Just shaking them up a littlebit with what if?
With just playing with thepossibilities, I think is a
(14:51):
great and gentle way to startchanging the meaning of whatever
you're experiencing in themoment.
So you're experiencing fear oranxiety of change, right, and
just saying, okay, now this isnot going to mean fear and
anxiety, it's going to meansomething else.
It's not going to work likethat forcefully, but just asking
(15:12):
yourself, what, if it could bedifferent?
What, what would it look like?
I think this childlikecuriosity is can really go
really far in helping us to tobecome a different observer of
our own reality, of ourexperiences.
Michelle Dowker (15:29):
I love that.
Yeah, I think those are reallygreat.
I know you're not intoproviding tips and tricks right,
we both do the deeper work.
However, I think those arereally great insights to keep in
mind for anyone really, andespecially if you are on this
path and you know you're in thisplace where you're feeling
(15:50):
disillusioned and you're feelinglike you know I'm successful.
However, I'm feeling insidethat there's something still
missing.
Yeah, there's something stillmore.
Well, what if there is more?
Anita Čavrag (16:03):
Yeah, yeah, and we tend to perceive that moment as
a very dramatic moment.
I mean, I remember my ownexperience.
It was really painful, it wasdramatic, and I remember my
coaching teacher.
She said something like thebigger the drama, the bigger the
opportunity, and thatcompletely flipped my
(16:24):
perspective.
I started thinking about oh myGod, what's on the other side of
this?
I'm really like deep in hellright now.
But when I get out, oh boy, whenI get out, who knows what's on
the other side, because it'salways darkest before the dawn,
and just thinking thattransformation really usually is
(16:45):
painful.
It is hard to transform, towake up, to shift your life
around, to ask yourself thesequestions, but the reward on the
other side is worth it.
And it's hard to see that whenyou're inside.
But I think everybody knowsfrom experience that after you
go through such hardship,through emotional turmoil, you
(17:08):
do get outside stronger.
So this isn't even somethingyou need to believe, like
sometimes people say, justbelieve you've lived this.
Everybody has lived thisexperience.
Just it was a different problem.
Maybe All right, but everybodyhas this experience where you go
through this emotional turmoiland you know it's an opportunity
(17:29):
for something, some growth iswaiting for you on the other
side.
A more authentic life is on theother side, and I think that's
to me that at least was a reallycomforting thought.
Michelle Dowker (17:45):
I love that perspective right.
The bigger the challenge, thebigger the growth and
opportunity on the other side ofit.
I like to use the concept ofchallenges and going through
something as the friction, thatkind of like, is the thing
that's required to create thepolish on the other side.
Anita Čavrag (18:04):
Yeah, and you know , the bigger the friction, the
the bigger bright, shiny resultson the other side of it well, I
love your metaphor, just so I'mlike babbling here and you just
say one metaphor and youexplain it all in just five
words well, that came from yousaying all of that.
Michelle Dowker (18:22):
So good teamwork, right, and that's
that's the thing as well.
Nothing is ever static.
Everything is always in fluxand flow and changing.
So you know, as with all things, this too shall change.
So if you are in the middle ofa challenge, you're feeling the
(18:44):
turmoil, you're feeling all ofthe angst.
You know it will pass and themore that you can, like you
mentioned earlier, surrender toit with trust and faith of this
process, rather than pushing itaway or running away from it,
because that's just going toelongate the process.
Yeah, yeah, and that's thething.
(19:06):
I don't know where your idealclient is on the journey, if
they're open and willing yet totake that journey and go within.
If they are or they aren't, Doyou have any insight or
suggestion for them,encouragement where they're at
right now and you know, to helpthem through addressing this
(19:28):
point in their journey andmoving through it?
Anita Čavrag (19:32):
Yeah, I think there's also a great saying when
you're in hell, just keepwalking.
If you're walking through hell,just keep walking.
I don't know who said that.
Maybe Winston Churchill, healways had these really smart
ones.
Maybe Winston Churchill, healways had these really smart
ones.
I would also like to invitethem to ask a.
Really it's a crazy question toask.
(19:53):
Right, you're in the middle ofthis process.
It's horrible, you don't knowwhat you should do, you're not
happy, right?
What if that could be fun?
Like, what if this could be afun process of coming home to
yourself, exploring yourselfagain?
Yeah, um, it doesn't mean thatall the problems, all the pain
(20:15):
is going to go away, but what ifit could also be fun?
What if it could be somethingyou know, a playful activity?
What if you could use this, uh,as an opportunity to experiment
?
Right it's, it's a, it's a sortof an awakening.
So, yeah, I'm just thinking,you know, does this even have to
(20:35):
be that painful all the timeand just be painful and nothing
else but painful?
I think it can also be excitingand you're kind of waking up
from this sort of stupor andyou're feeling alive again.
And, yeah, it hurts, but atleast you're alive, you're
breathing, you're kicking,you're feeling alive again and,
(20:56):
yeah, it hurts, but you're atleast you're alive, you're
breathing, you're, you'rekicking, you're, you're striving
for something else, right?
That's more than most peoplecan say, right?
So, yeah, I think of thisprocess is almost like a sacred
process of awakening, becomingmore autonomous and more aware
and ultimately, it's a beautifulthing and more aware and
(21:18):
ultimately it's a beautifulthing that which is happening.
Michelle Dowker (21:26):
I love that.
It's so true, it's sacred, it'simportant, it's beautiful and
once you're on the other sideyou know how worth it was.
There's no going back.
And, like you said, there's nogoing back and, like you said,
it doesn't necessarily have tobe all trudging through the muck
.
It can be a process with playand there can be enjoyment from
it.
And also what you've mentionedabout you know, with that quote
(21:57):
it kind of made me think about Ithink it's bison, the animal
bison.
If there's a storm approaching,they don't run away from the
storm, they turn around and runinto the storm because they know
that that's the quickest way toget out the other side into
good weather again, oh wow.
Anita Čavrag (22:16):
I didn't know that Right Instead of running away
from it, face it head on.
It's the quickest way to getthrough it.
Yeah, there's no way ofrepressing this.
At least I haven't seen anybodysuccessfully.
Just ignore this, the callingfrom the inside that you know,
the calling that you hear, thatyou want to.
You need to change something.
It just keeps getting louder,it might even get dangerous,
(22:41):
health wise, and it's yeah, it'sjust not going away.
So, yeah, it makes sense tolisten to this voice and ask it
like what does it want?
What does it need, need, whereis this coming from?
And surrender to that.
I'm not saying that peopleshould just drop everything and
pursue their passions and you,there is a time to be strategic
(23:05):
about this.
You know to make a plan and allof that.
So people tend to rush to thesestrategic questions.
But how do I make the change?
Who's gonna hire me?
How am I gonna do it?
Um, or like, if they have abusiness and they're they want
to scale, like, but how do Imake the change?
Who's going to hire me?
How am I going to do it?
Or like, if they have abusiness and they want to scale,
but how am I going to do it?
Like I need to hire a team.
I don't want to have a team.
It's too much, I don't knowwhat I want.
(23:25):
They get very strategic verysoon.
I think that's rushing throughthe process doesn't make you go
through it faster.
Right, there's a time for thesequestions, but those are not
the first questions to ask.
The how questions, thestrategic questions, should come
(23:46):
later.
I think that there's deeperinner work to be done first
before you can answer those.
I call them technical questionslike who, how, what, what should
I do?
Sometimes they resolvethemselves just naturally.
Sometimes a lot of them loserelevance, like I had a client
(24:08):
once whose concern was like buthow am I going to?
He was a sales professional,had a really, really good job,
good salary, and he wanted totry something else, also in
sales, but in somethingcompletely different, and he was
worried about losing a part ofhis income.
And just like through our worktogether it was just one session
he realized that's not even anissue Like I have savings, I
(24:32):
don't even need to spend allthat much money.
It was just a narrative that hewas in.
In life you should always earnmore and more and more.
And who says why, what, for?
So not even these money.
Fears are always warranted.
Sometimes they're exaggerated.
So, yeah, a lot of thesestrategic technical questions
(24:55):
kind of like lose relevance ortheir meaning changes or they
become less important or youjust find a way to resolve them.
But if you start with thosequestions before you answered
some deeper questions of like,who am I, what do I even want
authentically beyond what Ithink I should want, then they
(25:17):
are really hard to answer right,and that's why people stay
stuck for years grappling withthose questions and they can't
find an answer.
They don't know what to do, howto do it.
But that's because they justdidn't answer some more
fundamental questions first.
They just didn't answer somemore fundamental questions first
(25:37):
.
Yeah, so slow down to speed up.
Michelle Dowker (25:39):
That's the rule here.
I love that, right.
Getting down to the deeperdepths of things, right?
Instead of just trying toanswer the superficial.
And when you address the thingsunderneath the surface, then
some of those other things justsort themselves out naturally as
part of the process ofaddressing underneath the
(26:01):
surface.
Yeah, absolutely yeah, I loveit.
I love you.
Know we're on the samewavelength.
I love that.
Anita Čavrag (26:11):
Me too.
This is really fun.
Michelle Dowker (26:14):
Now, if somebody wanted to learn more
about you, where could they findyou?
Anita Čavrag (26:20):
Okay, well, I'm on LinkedIn and I'm on Facebook.
I post there every day A lot ofposts about busting some myths
that people usually have aboutwhat it means to be happy at
work or how to find morefulfilling work and, yeah, just
sharing a lot of insights that Idiscovered through my work with
(26:41):
clients or from my personalexperience or from my HR career.
So, facebook or LinkedIn, myname is Anita, the last name is
C-A-V-R-A-G, and I also have awebsite.
It's a very basic website but,yeah, you can find more about my
services there.
It's fireflycareercom Wonderful.
Michelle Dowker (27:05):
And if you want to send me all of that
information, I'll put it in theshow notes so that they can link
to it there.
Yeah, absolutely, this has beena wonderful conversation.
Anita Čavrag (27:17):
Thank you, michelle.
Thank you for having me.
I was really thrilled with yourquestions really
thought-provoking.
We touched on some reallyreally deep, deep questions and
topics.
Yeah, I feel really inspiredright now and grateful that I
had this chance to talk to you.
Yeah, likewise feel reallyinspired right now and I'm
grateful that I had this chanceto talk to you.
Yeah, likewise.
Michelle Dowker (27:39):
Yeah, so this wraps up part three of three of
the wonderful conversation thatI had with Anita Chavarag.
If you haven't yet accessed thefirst two parts of this
interview, you can access thatthrough the link in the show
notes, or you can go directly toepisodes 26 and 27 in the Inner
(28:02):
Purpose podcast and have alisten to that, and you can find
all the information to learnmore about Anita in the show
notes.
I've linked her website and howyou can find her on social
media.
So I hope you enjoyed thisthought-provoking conversation I
had with Anita and, as always,thank you for being here.
(28:24):
Until next time, take care.
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