In this second part of my powerful three-part conversation with purpose coach Anita Čavrag, we dive into what happens when we ignore the whispers of misalignment in our careers.
We explore the psychological, emotional, and even physical signs that tell us something's off. Especially for highly sensitive or neurocomplex individuals, these signs can be loud, persistent, and deeply personal.
We explore the impact of suppressing our true selves, the toll it can take on our well-being, and how guilt and social conditioning often keep us stuck in a life that looks great on paper but feels empty on the inside.
If you've ever felt ungrateful for wanting more or afraid to step away from what's “working,” this episode offers clarity, compassion, and perspective on why honouring your inner truth is not only valid, it’s vital.
Key Topics Discussed:
- The overlooked consequences of ignoring your inner design and emotional needs
- Why guilt and gratitude can coexist with the desire for change
- The importance of radical self-acceptance and how the inner critic hinders purpose
- Differentiating hedonic happiness from deeper fulfillment (eudaimonia)
- The physical and emotional symptoms of long-term work misalignment
- The social and cultural scripts that suppress authentic desires
- How to define your own architecture of fulfillment
- The role of cynicism, disengagement, and “quiet quitting” in modern work culture
This conversation continues to unfold with such depth and truth, and there's still more to come. Be sure to tune in for Part 3, where we explore how your perception of reality shapes your experience of purpose and fulfillment.
Resources & Links:
- Connect with Anita Čavrag – Website
- Follow Anita on Facebook
- Follow Anita on LinkedIn
- Part 1 of this interview: Why Success Feels Empty: Reclaiming Purpose at Work
- Part 3 of 3: Reframing Reality and Redefining Work (Coming Soon)
Don’t forget to rate, review, and share the podcast if you enjoyed this episode. It helps others discover the show and join the conversation. Until next time, take care.
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- Instagram @michelledowker_wellbalance
- Facebook @michelledowkerwellbalance
- Email michelle@michelledowker.com
FREE:
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Disclaimer:
This podcast is for informational & inspirational purposes only. Nothing shared is intended as medical, psychological, or personalized advice, and should not be used as a substitute for professional support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the
Inner Purpose Podcast.
Today's episode is episode twoof three separate episodes where
I had a wonderful and deepconversation with Anita Chavrag.
Anita is a coach for highachieving leaders and founders
who've built impressive careersor businesses but they feel
(00:22):
unfulfilled and sense it's timefor a profound change, even if
they're not sure what they trulywant.
She helps them reconnect withwho they really are, get clear
on what would actually lightthem up and design work that
aligns with their purpose andtheir true nature.
Her approach blends a master'sin psychology, nlp, existential
(00:46):
coaching, a decade-long careerin HR and a lifelong obsession
with the human mind, plus herown lived experience of walking
away from a prestigious butstifling path to follow her true
calling.
We had a lengthy and deepconversation that was rich with
(01:08):
so much magic.
I've decided to separate ourconversation into three
different podcast episodes sothat you can take in the
richness and depth of each oneon your own time and then come
back for another level of depthwith each of these three podcast
episodes.
(01:28):
I will link each of them in theshow notes so that you can
continue to listen one afteranother as you choose.
The first of these threeepisodes is linked in the show
notes and you can go there ifyou want to listen to that first
before you listen to this one.
However, it's not necessary.
In episode one we talked aboutpurpose and meaning.
(01:50):
What's the difference betweenpurpose and passion, and what
are the things to consider aboutyour work if it's not feeling
purposeful right now.
In today's episode, episode twoof three, we talk about what
happens if you don't actuallyfollow your purpose.
We talk about maybe some of theexistential signs and even
(02:13):
physical health signs that canoccur when you're not actually
following your purpose, whenyou're not actually
understanding how you'redesigned or what optimal career
is right for you, and, if youignore those whispers, what that
can turn into over time,especially if you are a highly
(02:34):
sensitive or neurocomplex person.
And then, in the final episode,we get deep into talking about
reality.
We talk about the filters ofyour unconscious mind and how
they might be affecting howyou're seeing your level of
purpose, how you'reunderstanding, meaning how you
might be seeing the options thatare on the table and what to
(02:58):
consider so that you can alignyourself to your most purposeful
work and feel deeply satisfiedwhile doing it.
So that's a little overview ofwhat to come.
In the meantime, let's getstarted with part two of the
interview.
Here we pick up where we leftoff in part one.
I hope that you enjoy.
(03:19):
I'm not sure if you can speakto this.
I know for myself and a lot ofthe people that I work with we
tend to be.
You know, we're highlysensitive.
Sometimes we're neurodivergentor neurocomplex.
We tend to kind of think andsee differently than most of the
(03:40):
people around us, andoftentimes most of the people
around us and oftentimes, youknow, we're kind of designed to
be like maybe cycle breakers ortrailblazers or do things
differently than other people.
And that can be difficult if wedon't have an example of how to
break out of the mold, breakout of the box and not try to
(04:03):
stuff ourselves into what wethink we should be doing.
I'm not sure if you've comeacross that or if you experience
that or can speak to that sortof thing.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, actually neurodivergence is something
that I haven't really studiedall that much until about
recently.
I think I discovered the termonly a few months ago.
That's not something you studyas a psychologist.
I think that's a relatively newterm that describes people who
just think differently, and Ithink a lot of things fall under
(04:38):
that umbrella and sometimesmaybe I'm wondering if the term
also loses its purpose if somany things are considered, if
so many traits are consideredneurodivergent.
So I haven't personally hadmuch experience with that, but I
do know that over the yearsI've learned to respect my
(05:01):
uniqueness and I sort of stoppedfeeling the need to label it
Like I have.
For instance, I have reallyhigh standards in life and that
has cost me a lot because youdon't want to do what everybody
else is doing, because you wantto do it your way, whatever that
way is.
And you know, maybe I'mneurodivergent in some sense.
(05:24):
I know that I took recently thehighly sensitive people test
and I definitely scored reallyhigh right, but I think it just
matters.
It's important to respect yourown uniqueness and not trample
over it, not say that, oh, I'mjust being too sensitive or
trying to fit some kind of adefinition in whatever sense
(05:50):
right of that word, and when yougive yourself that permission
to just pay attention to youremotional needs and respect them
like you would respect theemotional needs of any other
person, right?
If somebody told you could youplease keep it down, I'm having
a headache, right?
You would probably respect that, but you know how many times do
we have a headache and we keepon working because you know I
(06:12):
have a deadline.
Right To me, that's what itboils down to Just respecting
your own emotional needs, likeyou would respect the needs of
any other human being, insteadof thinking how things should be
.
I think this word should is areally, really.
It's a really huge red flag.
Whenever I catch myself sayingsomething like I should, I know
(06:36):
that I'm not being authentic inthat moment.
I'm playing some kind of a game.
I'm in the script, right?
It doesn't mean that you shouldreject all scripts of life.
You should reject everythingthat society told you, right?
If you really truly believe youshould do something, I think,
then you know it's fine to usethe word should, but we often
(06:58):
use it mindlessly.
I think that's the goal, atleast for me, of of this
personal development it's not tobe contrarian.
It's not to always do theopposite of what everybody else
is doing, because I'm gonna doit my way, because that's also
form of a script.
Actually there's a word forthat, it's called anti-script.
You're like doing everythingthat's opposite of the script,
(07:21):
then you're also kind of a slaveto it, right?
So true liberty, true freedomand autonomy come from making
your own choices from theposition of an adult, not a
child, not some kind of aparental figure, but making
choices from the position of anadult who respects himself or
(07:45):
herself just as they respectother people.
I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Absolutely.
I love that, and I love thepoints that you've made about
how important it is to respectyour own needs as you would
somebody else, your own needs asyou would somebody else,
because I, you know, that issomething that we so commonly
(08:13):
tend to ignore ourselves for thesake of others and working
against ourselves is likely thatone of the pieces of a bigger
puzzle of maybe keeping you fromactually experiencing the level
of purpose and meaning andpassion that you potentially
could be experiencing inwhatever you're doing, because
(08:34):
you're not giving yourselfpermission and you're not
treating yourself in a way thatyou need to be treated and I
also appreciate the point you'vementioned about I use the terms
like highly sensitive andneurodivergent, because a lot of
people can relate to thedescriptors of how these things
(08:54):
tend to present and it can getdangerous to start to now label
yourself as that as an identity,because then you're just
putting yourself in another box.
Yeah, yeah, as that as anidentity, because then you're
just putting yourself in anotherbox and or running that
(09:15):
anti-script, like you mentioned,which I hadn't heard that term
before.
I'm gonna have to go look atthat because that's really cool
and you're right, it's.
You know, it's not about tryingto oppose or force yourself to
do something that you feel likeyou should.
It's about really identifying.
Well, who are you actually, howare you built, how do you
respond to things, what are yourvalues?
(09:35):
And I think that's anotherthing that's probably an
important key to you know thiswhole topic of purpose and
meaning and passion.
What would you say in terms ofthat, in terms of identifying
and understanding our personalvalues?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, I think it's really important to give
ourselves the permission to bewhoever we are and be okay with
that and just look ourselves inthe mirror and say, okay, these
are my strengths, these are mytalents, these are my strong
sides and these are the thingsthat are not my strong suit.
You know, I am both great andI'm also flawed.
(10:17):
At the same time, right, andaccept that full humanity, that
we have, the full complexity ofour humanity.
And what I think helps a lotwith that is curiosity, just
this openness and curiosity toget to know ourselves like a
child would or a scientist,because we are all unique.
(10:41):
We are all unique.
That's a wonderful paradox.
We're all nobody's specialbecause everybody's unique.
So if everybody's unique,nobody's special, but that's
still, you know we are still.
Each of us is different fromanother.
There is no other human beinglike ourselves, right?
So I think that's like kind ofradical self-acceptance when you
(11:03):
can look at yourself and notfeel the sting of judgment, but
just acceptance for who you are.
And sometimes that's difficultto do on your own and it really
helps to have another person.
This is why they say love heals.
We heal through ourrelationships.
Being loved and accepted byanother is really healing.
(11:26):
But you can also do that with atherapist or with a coach, and
they do say that that's the mostpowerful part of any kind of
work like this coaching ortherapy, because you're being
accepted without judgment, andthat is something we that's the
luxury we don't really alwayshave.
We always have this like innercritic, actively, like this
(11:49):
voice of the inner critic in ourheads, and it's difficult to be
honest with ourselves when allthis time there's this other
voice that's just waiting for usto say something stupid or to
trying to catch us doingsomething wrong, right and
criticizing us.
This is why I think we it's noteasy to be honest with
(12:10):
ourselves because this internal,this inner critic, is
relentless.
And so working with anotherperson or just being in the
presence of another person whocan soften that internal judge,
can make us more honest aboutwho we are, and then we ever
would be honest if we were justalone in a room in front of a
(12:34):
mirror, which is a paradox,right, you would think that you
would be more honest whennobody's listening, but you are
listening, your inner critic islistening.
Nobody's listening, but you arelistening, your inner critic is
listening.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, I love this, that you bring this up, and I
mean, first of all, we're allhuman, yeah, and being human
comes with.
You know this wholeperfectionistic thing that so
many people get caught up in.
Right, I have to be perfect ineverything.
I can't have faults, otherwisethere's something wrong with me.
(13:07):
I feel like that's a bit of asocially conditioned, maybe,
coping mechanism, survivalmechanism and understanding.
You know the non-duality of wehave strengths and we have
weaknesses and all of us do, andlike that's the ultimate shadow
work right there, right, toaccept, you know, all of you, so
(13:30):
that you can become whole.
I think that you know hidingthose pieces away that you don't
want to accept or look at takesup so much energy, yeah, and it
probably keeps you from a lotof these other things that we're
talking about in terms ofaccepting your design, accepting
who you are, and it's funnythat you've mentioned I have a
(13:53):
little note on my computerscreen.
I put it up here a few years agoafter I went through a program.
That sort of was a bit of aninitiation, and I wrote down
there's nothing special about me, yet everything is special
about me, right, we're all human, we're all the same in that
(14:14):
regard, and just like asnowflake, each of us have a
slightly different blend ofshapes and flavors and what we
think, and flavors and what wethink how we express ourselves.
Yeah, that acceptance piece isso, so important.
I love that you talked aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
That's a beautiful metaphor.
The snowflake right.
When you look at a bunch ofsnowflakes, they're all the same
, but they're not right, being asnowflake is nothing special,
but each one is unique.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
To me that's the most beautiful paradox, and I also
know that the whole analogy ofsnowflake in society, some use
that sort of analogy of asnowflake to describe people who
might be like too sensitive.
Yeah, yeah, that just kind ofgoes to show that what one
person sees one way, anotherperson is going to see it
(15:10):
another way.
And that whole concept of oh,you're too sensitive.
I think that reinforces a lotof that inner critic that you're
talking about.
It reinforces a lot of theshoulds that we think that we
should do it this way becausethis, you know, people are
telling us that we're toosensitive or too different or
whatever.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Too sensitive?
What does that even mean?
Too sensitive according to whom?
According to what criteria?
Like is there a universalbenchmark for how much
sensitivity is appropriate?
Very good questions.
And you know, I think it's evendangerous not to be sensitive.
(15:50):
Like if you have low thresholdfor pain, you're going to react
pretty quickly, right?
If you don't, you know you'regoing to suffer some damage
before you realize you're beinghurt.
I think there is.
You can think about sensitivityas a negative trait, or at least
not a very useful one, becauseyou go through life and you get
easily bruised or hurt, but atthe same time, you're more
(16:14):
attuned to what suits you andyou can more easily recognize
what doesn't, and so you canregulate yourself, your life.
You can build a life that'smore aligned with who you are
than if you're just like goingthrough life unaware of your
sensitivities or just not payingthat much attention to what
(16:36):
fits or what doesn't fit.
You're like really robust andyou're really strong and you can
handle anything, and you justlike end up being rough, and
that's how you win battles inlife, that's how you achieve
goals just by bulldozing yourway through life.
I think you know you can end uppretty bruised and hurt that
way and not even realize it, andthen one day you wake up with
(17:00):
even medical problems, right?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Absolutely.
I think a lot of it might be.
You know, when someone issaying too sensitive, I think
there might be a bit of asocially conditioned paradigm
about what they've been taughtis acceptable or not acceptable
and I think that kind of speaksto that whole like shadow work.
Again there's something thatthey're not accepting and that's
going to cause some level offriction at some point.
(17:23):
And I think the same can betrue about if you are a
sensitive person.
I think that the more that youcan accept that and work with it
, it actually opens up yourcapacity and resilience so that
you don't get overwhelmed bybeing a highly sensitive person.
Actually the science provesthat to be true.
(17:43):
Right the whole, integrating thethings, so that you are whole
and accept all the parts ofyourself.
And I think that sometimes whenwe allow ourselves to listen to
all those socially conditionedmessages of you're too sensitive
or you should be doing this orsay, for example, oh, that's
(18:04):
just selfish to focus on whatmakes you happy and your purpose
and your passions, especiallyif you are in a position where
you know from the outside,looking in, people are saying
you're successful, you're doingwell, like you should just be
happy with what you have.
Meanwhile, maybe you knowyou're not taking into
(18:27):
consideration how you'redesigned, or your passion or
your purpose, or you're notworking with who you are or
identifying what you actuallywant, and I think that's another
piece of it is.
Sometimes there can be maybe abit of guilt or shame around
that of like yeah, but I shouldjust be happy.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Oh, yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that.
That is so, so common.
Yeah, the shame, the guilt forwanting something else, even
though our life is pretty goodby the usual standards.
Yeah, we live in times when youcan wake up in the morning,
open the news and read aboutwars and disasters happening in
(19:08):
some remote place, right, and atthe same time, you have your
cozy Western life where you, youknow, work from home or you
ride in a I don't know in a nicecar to get to work.
You sit in your comfortableoffice.
You know it's mind-boggling,right.
And then you have to admit toyourself that you're not happy,
(19:32):
while being aware that there arepeople dying.
I understand why people feelguilty and where this is coming
from when they just like, whenyou juxtapose those two facts,
it's kind of mind boggling,right.
I think gratitude can coexistwith wanting more, right, you
(19:52):
can understand that, in thegreater spectrum of things,
you're living a good life.
You're actually lucky to bealive and healthy and have a job
and have, you know, a goodincome, like the fact that you
are a competent, smart person.
Right, it's a luxury, in a wayto be, to not be fulfilled with
(20:15):
our work, which we chose, whichis actually, you know, cozy,
well-paying job, whatever it is,whether you're running your
business or if you're workingfor someone else.
So it is, in the greaterspectrum of things.
It is a problem that mostpeople still don't have.
Unfortunately, they're dealingwith other problems, but that
(20:36):
doesn't change your reality.
You're not those people.
You're not living there.
You're going through whatyou're going through right now.
I think I mentioned before thevery reason why you can even
notice that you're not beingfulfilled is because you
fulfilled all the other needs,more primary needs, right For
safety.
For, you know, all of yourmaterial needs are met, and now
(20:58):
you have the space to thinkabout what makes me truly happy,
what makes me alive, what do Ireally really want?
Right?
This is something that humans,by the way, workers of the world
have been fighting for.
Like.
This is a battle that you know,unions.
We are here thanks to thosepeople.
Right Now, we're in a positionwhere we can actually ask
(21:21):
ourselves after we've achievedsuccess but is this what I truly
want?
It's something to cherish,right?
And I think it's possible to,at the same time, understand how
privileged you are for evenbeing able to ask that and be
grateful for all the good stuffthat you have, appreciative of
that stuff, and because this isnot either or it's both and
(21:45):
right, and at the same timerecognize that your soul, or
whatever you believe in yourheart, your mind, craves
something else.
That's how I think about it,not like as a mutually exclusive
thing, but as both, and I lovethat and again that goes back
right to the non-duality.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Both things can be true at once.
And you know yes, it's truethere are people who are
struggling, whether it be, youknow, there's people dying,
there's people at war, there'speople who are struggling to
make ends meet, for example.
And you know you can be on theother side of that and have
moved up the hierarchy of needsto the point where now you're
(22:29):
successful and you're achievingthe things that those people
would love to achieve.
And now you're questioning well, it's still not enough.
And what are your thoughts onthis?
This just kind of came to mymind, especially if you're
(22:50):
questioning this from the lensof this isn't enough, because I
want to be making a meaningfuldifference, and I feel like I'm
not making as much of ameaningful difference as
something in my soul is tellingme that I want.
In that case, is it reallyselfish to be thinking about how
can I fulfill my purpose?
And instead consider it I wantto fulfill my highest level
(23:12):
purpose so I can make a bigger,more meaningful difference.
You know, it's going to make mefeel better and I'm making a
difference for others.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yeah, if you're driven by the need to make a
meaningful difference, a biggerimpact than you are already
making, that's one of the mostselfless things you can do.
Right, you're sacrificingeverything you've built.
Right, you're consideringdropping your entire career so
you could pursue something morethat makes a bigger impact, or?
(23:44):
I mean, that is the definitionof selflessness, right?
This isn't just about howyou're going to express yourself
in the world.
It's, this is about the world.
Like, what trail are you goingto leave?
Like, what impact are you goingto have on the world?
It's about others.
It's not just about you.
I mean, we're meaning makingmachines and we can't just live
(24:06):
for ourselves.
We are wired for connection andfor, yeah, for giving right.
Earlier, before we startedrecording, we talked about the
phenomenon of bullshit jobs.
I'd just like to brieflymention that, with the rise of
productivity, we have justinvented so many roles that are
just tiny.
(24:27):
They're a tiny cog in a bigmachine, right, and people can
sense that.
People can feel that that thework they do is kind of like I
don't want to say pointless likeit's work that does produce
real value, but just in thegreat scheme of things, maybe
it's not really that important.
And when you get laid off andyou realize the company doesn't
(24:51):
really need you, not just thatthey lay you off, they
completely cancel out the wholeposition, like they just
eliminate the role, right.
That makes you wonder.
And a lot of people are doingthese jobs that are kind of
administrative or clerical orthey're just like one tiny piece
of a bigger, you know, chain ofthings and that really, I think
(25:17):
, leaves a mark when you knowthat the work you do is just
this tiny, tiny piece and it'shard to hide that fact from
yourself.
Like, on some level people feelthat and there's a really big
rise of disengagement at work.
Very few people are activelyengaged at work.
I think more than 80% of peopleare actively disengaged at work
(25:40):
.
Like that tells us something.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
It sounds kind of like the term quiet quitting.
Is that kind of?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, there's definitely that Quiet quitting
is when people just kind of giveup, they decide they're not
going to try.
I mean, they still do theirwork, but just enough to get by.
That's, I think, what's usuallymeant by quiet quitting.
I think it's also because youknow if you get laid off you
might get a severance package,whereas when, if you quit,
(26:11):
you're not going to get anything.
So sometimes people wait to belaid off so they can leave with
a good severance package andstart doing something else.
But it just shows ouralienation from work, from the
work itself from, and thatalienation leads to the
alienation from ourselves, right, and it leads to cynicism.
I've met so many people who arereally cynical about the
(26:31):
companies they work for or justthe world where they think about
company culture.
All of those are just buzzwords, that doesn't mean anything.
Yeah, yeah, they can saywhatever they want, but tomorrow
they can just fire me.
And this is not company culture, it's transactional.
I'm here for the money, justpay me and leave me alone.
(26:53):
A lot of people reach that pointbecause they get disillusioned
by these narratives thatcompanies produce about
togetherness and employeewell-being and all of that,
whereas nothing changes the corefacts and that is, that the job
that you're like, the work thatyou do, is not really that
important or meaningful, right,and nothing can compensate for
(27:18):
that realization.
There's nothing that can reallycompensate.
Maybe money can in the shortrun, maybe the fact that you
have a good work-life balanceand that's the period of your
life when you prioritize familyor something right, so you can
compensate in the short run, butI don't think it's really
(27:39):
possible to do so in the longrun.
If you do, that means youreally need to distance yourself
and be completely emotionallyseparate from your work and
really deeply cynical about it.
I don't know, very heavy, yeah,in so many areas.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I mean having worked as a naturopathic doctor, I've
seen what it can do in terms ofhealth and symptoms.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
And what if something that, like maybe you know,
sticks with you to this day,something that you've seen?
I'm trying to think off the topof my head here.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
The first thing that comes to mind and it trying to
think off the top of my headhere.
The first thing that comes tomind and it may or may not be
kind of related At one point Iwas working a lot with people
with autoimmunity.
You think about autoimmunity.
The immune system is looking atsome aspect or system of your
body as not self and it's tryingto protect yourself by
(28:46):
attacking that part.
And I see energetically thatoftentimes somebody who does
have autoimmunity there might bethis tendency that there's
something about themselves thatthey don't accept.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Wow.
So like something about them isconsidered a foreign body by
their immune system.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
right yeah, Wow, and so like emotionally or
energetically, you know, ifthere's.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
You know we've been talking earlier about how
important it is to accept howyou're built, who you are, what
your preferences are, what youreally want no-transcript who
(29:48):
have contacted me did talk abouttheir physical symptoms like
weight gain, hair loss, you knowstuff like that, not full blown
like diseases, but justannoying physical symptoms of
various severity that theythemselves kind of brought into
connection with theirunhappiness at work.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, I mean it makes sense.
All of these things can beassociated with, say, for
example, stress and stresshormones.
Right, if you are, you know,ignoring yourself, or you know
not happy, suppressing part ofyourself, feeling dissociated,
it's going to cause stress andit can cause symptoms like that.
(30:32):
And that kind of takes me to aquestion you know you've
mentioned about.
You know they realize they'renot happy.
What does happiness mean?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
That's a great question.
That's a huge question.
Happiness is such a broad termand we use it all the time.
But I mean to define happiness.
That's a really ambitiousproject, like I can tell you
what I mean by happy, what Ithink people mostly mean by
happiness.
I think we usually mean feelinggood most of the time, just
(31:08):
like the absence of pain and thepresence of pleasant emotions.
But in the context of work, Iam not sure that chasing this
type of happiness I would callit hedonic happiness.
Right, the feel good happiness.
I mean, if you feel it, that'samazing.
(31:28):
If you have a kind of a jobthat provides you with that,
that's amazing.
But that feeling is fleeting,it's not always in our control
and you know you can feel happywhen you eat a lot of chocolate.
Right, it's the dopamine thatcreates that happiness.
What I think sustains people themost is a different kind of
(31:51):
happiness and it's I like tocall that happiness fulfillment.
I use the terms interchangeably, but I prefer to talk about
deep fulfillment, and that'sdifferent than happiness.
Deep fulfillment is a sense ofdeep contentment.
It's more than a feeling, it'sa state of mind, it's a state of
being.
It's more than a feeling, it'sa state of mind, it's a state of
(32:12):
being.
The ancient Greeks had awonderful word for that.
It's called eudaimonia.
I think I'm pronouncing itcorrectly.
I hope so.
E-u-d-a-i-m-o-n-i-a.
Right, it's a beautiful wordand it means deep fulfillment,
and this is what people feelwhen their work gives them
(32:35):
meaning and presence.
It's not tied to how you feelin every given moment, like you
can have moments of frustration,of doubt, you can work hard,
you can feel tired, buteudaimonia is also like it's
almost like an after effect.
It's how you generally feelabout your work, not in every
single moment, but just whatyour general attitude towards
(32:56):
your work is.
And this is why I think itmatters to define your unique
architecture of fulfillment,like what really?
What do I need to be trulyfulfilled at work?
What factors, what elementsneed to be present and work to
(33:17):
design your work life aroundthose factors, build them into
your work life, and the naturalconsequence should be this deep
sense of fulfillment.
If you have work that, if you dothe work that you're really
good at, that you really likedoing, you're going to enjoy
doing it right.
If you're doing what you'regood at, if you're doing what
(33:38):
you're naturally good at, notjust what you're skilled at.
I think that's an importantdistinction to make, because you
can learn skills, but what kindof?
Comes naturally to you.
So, if you can do that, if youcan spend a lot of time doing
those activities, if the workyou do aligns with your values
right, values are what isimportant to you, your
(33:58):
principles about how life shouldbe and how people should treat
each other is there, right?
There is an impact and it's apositive impact and you can see
it, you can measure it, you can,and it's an impact that is
important to you.
It's not some trivial impactthat other people value, but
(34:21):
you're just disconnected from it, right?
So it's important that youvalue that impact that is going
to give you a sense of meaningand purpose in your work, to
give you a sense of meaning andpurpose in your work.
And then your work really needsto fit the larger scheme of your
life.
Like our work, life doesn'thappen in a vacuum.
If there's friction betweenwork and private life, then
(34:41):
you're going to have problems,right?
If you, for example I don'tknow you have these emotional
needs, like you want a lot ofconnection with people, right?
And your work is just isolating, you spend a lot of time alone.
This is going to take a toll onyou, or vice versa you prefer
(35:02):
to work alone and your workrequires you to be in constant
contact with people.
That is probably going to wearon you.
And then the context of yourlife.
If you, for example I don'tknow you're the kind of person
who likes to travel a lot, beactive, and your work just keeps
you tied to your desk from nineto five, right?
It's not going to be a greatfit, right?
(35:25):
So I think all of those factors, you need to take them into
account when you think aboutwhat would be a great choice of
career for you or a great job.
I kind of diverged from, likewhat was your question?
Speaker 1 (35:39):
All of that was great and it all of that stemmed from
that initial question ofhappiness.
What does that actually mean?
Yeah, yeah, and I loved, yeah,I loved what you said about it's
not just about just alwayshaving that hedonic, like it's
not always rainbows, sprinklesand unicorns, right, you can't
(36:03):
be always just riding a high,you know, that's not the way
life works.
Yeah, and I think that'ssomething that maybe some people
might mistake.
Right that you know, just likewe have strengths and weaknesses
, human nature is not just aboutgood vibes.
(36:24):
Only, that's a bit of bypassingthe fact that there are moments
of happiness.
In terms of like that hedonichappiness, there are moments
where you aren't going to feelthat way.
And what you mentioned aboutthe eudaimonia, that like the
fulfillment underneath of it,even if you're not necessarily
(36:47):
in like an ecstatic place, whatcame to me, as you were saying,
that is like a sense of innerpeace, of with what is where
you're at that aligns.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah, I realize I also use the words meaning and
purpose interchangeably, butthey're not exactly the same.
Purpose is more about theimpact and what is the effect of
your work, but the sense ofmeaning can come from doing
things that make sense to you.
Right, it doesn't have to havea huge noble purpose, right?
(37:22):
Or it doesn't even have to havea purpose.
People can feel a sense ofmeaning when they do activities
that are just meaningful in andof themselves, right, just doing
the activity for the sake ofdoing it.
So, a sense of meaning andespecially a sense of purpose.
But if you have both, that canreally sustain us.
(37:43):
When the going gets tough, whenthe work is not fun, when you
have to work really hard longhours, when it's stressful or
whatever problems, you have.
That sense of deep meaning andpurpose is something that can
sustain you much longer than ifyou have all the other
conditions met and you don'thave meaning and purpose.
(38:05):
Because meaning and purposegives you this.
Why, why should I keep doingthis if it's so hard?
Purpose gives you this.
Why, why should I keep doingthis if it's so hard?
Why should I keep doing this ifit doesn't pay?
Well, if you're just starting abusiness and you're not, you
know, getting paid.
Well, why should I keep doingthis?
If it's so stressful, if it'sso hard, if it's?
You know, you have boringperiods, right.
(38:27):
This gives you the reason tokeep going, even though it it
doesn't feel great, because itmakes sense to do so.
There is a higher purpose,something more important than
how you feel in that particularmoment.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
I love that.
The word that came to mind isit's like a fuel that keeps you
going.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah, yeah, I also have that metaphor in my head,
yeah that's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
So, with the typical type of person that you tend to
work with, where are theyusually at when?
It's when they are at the primeplace to be ready to work with
you.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Well, they're aware that something is off, like
they're not aligned with theirwork.
They don't enjoy their workanymore.
There's a deep sense ofincongruence I love that word
congruence and incongruence.
Like what they say, what theydo and what they think and feel
is not aligned, there is aschism between those right, and
(39:35):
this actually is really painfulfor us.
When there's such incoherence,we feel existential despair and
I think the best way I woulddescribe these people when
they're at the prime to workwith me is some kind of an
identity crisis where they'renot really sure what they want.
They have a pretty clear ideaof what they don't want, but
(39:58):
they don't know exactly what itis that they want, or at least
they're not ready to admit tothemselves what it is that they
want, because it feels foreign,it feels forbidden or just not
possible, right.
And there's a lot of fear.
And even more than fear,there's anxiety about the future
.
Like how will I make it work?
(40:18):
Like what do I do?
Should I just drop everything?
Try something else?
How is that going to work out?
So this is, I think, where mostof them are Like this.
It's dominant emotion maybe isanxiety and confusion and just
this deep discontent with theirwork life, but it's not directed
(40:42):
at one specific element.
It's just like general feelingof discontent and they're really
frustrated because they're sosuccessful and they think they
should be happy, they think theyshould be grateful and they
wonder if they're spoiled foreven thinking like this.
So they don't even permitthemselves, maybe the full
(41:05):
extent of this emotion becausethey're trying to suppress it,
because, like I mean, what doesthat say about me?
Look at what a wonderful life Ihave.
And here I am thinking aboutchange.
And so they're kind of stuck ina limbo.
I would say they're stuck in alimbo, unable to move forward
from that place.
That's not an easy place to beis it?
(41:26):
No, no, not at all.
Not at all.
And sometimes they getunderstanding from their family
and friends, but often theydon't.
Often the people who areclosest to them, who mean well
they all mean well try to remindthem about how lucky they are
and how they should be happy andall of the good things they
have.
People who are close to us tendto be, you know, they don't
(41:51):
want anything bad to happen tous and I think, in general, they
want us to stay safe.
They want to see us survivemore than they want to see us
thrive, especially parents.
So I think it's reallyimportant to be careful who you
ask for help or advice aboutwhat you should do next.
Because, yeah, not everybodycan relate to this feeling of
(42:12):
having everything technicallyhaving everything and still that
not being enough for you tofeel happy.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
That makes me think of what we were talking about
earlier, about examples andmodels.
Right, if you're looking atpeople who are showing you an
example of maybe just getting by, just surviving, just
functional, you can't expectthat their suggestions are going
to be the thing that are goingto help you get from functional
to flourishing.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
And if you're at a job whereit's part of the culture in your
team to complain about work,right, or you just kind of
happen to surround yourself withpeople who are going through
the same thing, then it'sdifficult to see a way out
Because that's all you see thewhole day, that's all you hear
(43:02):
the whole day, and it'ssometimes people get to this
point where it's really hard tobelieve that it's even possible
to be happy at work.
They think everybody, justnobody likes their job, right.
So, yeah, I think the circle ofpeople that we're surrounded
with is really important andreally changes our perspective.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
So this is where part two of three of the interview
ends, because we end upswitching topics.
If you haven't yet listened topart one of this interview, you
can access that through the linkin the show notes, or you can
go directly to episode 26 in theInner Purpose podcast and have
a listen to that and, shortly,part three of this interview.
(43:51):
The final part of thisinterview will be released in
the near future.
This one is gold.
We're going to get into allthings reality in terms of how
you're interpreting reality, thelens through which you're
looking at things, and what allof that means in terms of your
purpose, work and finding peaceand happiness and satisfaction
(44:16):
with what it is that you'redoing.
You can find the links to theother two podcast episodes in
the show notes once they'republished, and you can find all
the information to learn moreabout Anita in the show notes.
I've linked her website and howyou can find her on social
media.
(44:36):
So I hope that you enjoyed thissecond of three conversations
with Anita and I hope you comeback to listen to the rest and,
as always, thank you for beinghere.
Until next time, take care.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the
Inner Purpose Podcast.
Today's episode is episode twoof three separate episodes where
I had a wonderful and deepconversation with Anita Chavrag.
Anita is a coach for highachieving leaders and founders
who've built impressive careersor businesses but they feel
(00:22):
unfulfilled and sense it's timefor a profound change, even if
they're not sure what they trulywant.
She helps them reconnect withwho they really are, get clear
on what would actually lightthem up and design work that
aligns with their purpose andtheir true nature.
Her approach blends a master'sin psychology, nlp, existential
(00:46):
coaching, a decade-long careerin HR and a lifelong obsession
with the human mind, plus herown lived experience of walking
away from a prestigious butstifling path to follow her true
calling.
We had a lengthy and deepconversation that was rich with
(01:08):
so much magic.
I've decided to separate ourconversation into three
different podcast episodes sothat you can take in the
richness and depth of each oneon your own time and then come
back for another level of depthwith each of these three podcast
episodes.
(01:28):
I will link each of them in theshow notes so that you can
continue to listen one afteranother as you choose.
The first of these threeepisodes is linked in the show
notes and you can go there ifyou want to listen to that first
before you listen to this one.
However, it's not necessary.
In episode one we talked aboutpurpose and meaning.
(01:50):
What's the difference betweenpurpose and passion, and what
are the things to consider aboutyour work if it's not feeling
purposeful right now.
In today's episode, episode twoof three, we talk about what
happens if you don't actuallyfollow your purpose.
We talk about maybe some of theexistential signs and even
(02:13):
physical health signs that canoccur when you're not actually
following your purpose, whenyou're not actually
understanding how you'redesigned or what optimal career
is right for you, and, if youignore those whispers, what that
can turn into over time,especially if you are a highly
(02:34):
sensitive or neurocomplex person.
And then, in the final episode,we get deep into talking about
reality.
We talk about the filters ofyour unconscious mind and how
they might be affecting howyou're seeing your level of
purpose, how you'reunderstanding, meaning how you
might be seeing the options thatare on the table and what to
(02:58):
consider so that you can alignyourself to your most purposeful
work and feel deeply satisfiedwhile doing it.
So that's a little overview ofwhat to come.
In the meantime, let's getstarted with part two of the
interview.
Here we pick up where we leftoff in part one.
I hope that you enjoy.
(03:19):
I'm not sure if you can speakto this.
I know for myself and a lot ofthe people that I work with we
tend to be.
You know, we're highlysensitive.
Sometimes we're neurodivergentor neurocomplex.
We tend to kind of think andsee differently than most of the
(03:40):
people around us, andoftentimes most of the people
around us and oftentimes, youknow, we're kind of designed to
be like maybe cycle breakers ortrailblazers or do things
differently than other people.
And that can be difficult if wedon't have an example of how to
break out of the mold, breakout of the box and not try to
(04:03):
stuff ourselves into what wethink we should be doing.
I'm not sure if you've comeacross that or if you experience
that or can speak to that sortof thing.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, actually neurodivergence is something
that I haven't really studiedall that much until about
recently.
I think I discovered the termonly a few months ago.
That's not something you studyas a psychologist.
I think that's a relatively newterm that describes people who
just think differently, and Ithink a lot of things fall under
(04:38):
that umbrella and sometimesmaybe I'm wondering if the term
also loses its purpose if somany things are considered, if
so many traits are consideredneurodivergent.
So I haven't personally hadmuch experience with that, but I
do know that over the yearsI've learned to respect my
(05:01):
uniqueness and I sort of stoppedfeeling the need to label it
Like I have.
For instance, I have reallyhigh standards in life and that
has cost me a lot because youdon't want to do what everybody
else is doing, because you wantto do it your way, whatever that
way is.
And you know, maybe I'mneurodivergent in some sense.
(05:24):
I know that I took recently thehighly sensitive people test
and I definitely scored reallyhigh right, but I think it just
matters.
It's important to respect yourown uniqueness and not trample
over it, not say that, oh, I'mjust being too sensitive or
trying to fit some kind of adefinition in whatever sense
(05:50):
right of that word, and when yougive yourself that permission
to just pay attention to youremotional needs and respect them
like you would respect theemotional needs of any other
person, right?
If somebody told you could youplease keep it down, I'm having
a headache, right?
You would probably respect that, but you know how many times do
we have a headache and we keepon working because you know I
(06:12):
have a deadline.
Right To me, that's what itboils down to Just respecting
your own emotional needs, likeyou would respect the needs of
any other human being, insteadof thinking how things should be
.
I think this word should is areally, really.
It's a really huge red flag.
Whenever I catch myself sayingsomething like I should, I know
(06:36):
that I'm not being authentic inthat moment.
I'm playing some kind of a game.
I'm in the script, right?
It doesn't mean that you shouldreject all scripts of life.
You should reject everythingthat society told you, right?
If you really truly believe youshould do something, I think,
then you know it's fine to usethe word should, but we often
(06:58):
use it mindlessly.
I think that's the goal, atleast for me, of of this
personal development it's not tobe contrarian.
It's not to always do theopposite of what everybody else
is doing, because I'm gonna doit my way, because that's also
form of a script.
Actually there's a word forthat, it's called anti-script.
You're like doing everythingthat's opposite of the script,
(07:21):
then you're also kind of a slaveto it, right?
So true liberty, true freedomand autonomy come from making
your own choices from theposition of an adult, not a
child, not some kind of aparental figure, but making
choices from the position of anadult who respects himself or
(07:45):
herself just as they respectother people.
I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Absolutely.
I love that, and I love thepoints that you've made about
how important it is to respectyour own needs as you would
somebody else, your own needs asyou would somebody else,
because I, you know, that issomething that we so commonly
(08:13):
tend to ignore ourselves for thesake of others and working
against ourselves is likely thatone of the pieces of a bigger
puzzle of maybe keeping you fromactually experiencing the level
of purpose and meaning andpassion that you potentially
could be experiencing inwhatever you're doing, because
(08:34):
you're not giving yourselfpermission and you're not
treating yourself in a way thatyou need to be treated and I
also appreciate the point you'vementioned about I use the terms
like highly sensitive andneurodivergent, because a lot of
people can relate to thedescriptors of how these things
(08:54):
tend to present and it can getdangerous to start to now label
yourself as that as an identity,because then you're just
putting yourself in another box.
Yeah, yeah, as that as anidentity, because then you're
just putting yourself in anotherbox and or running that
(09:15):
anti-script, like you mentioned,which I hadn't heard that term
before.
I'm gonna have to go look atthat because that's really cool
and you're right, it's.
You know, it's not about tryingto oppose or force yourself to
do something that you feel likeyou should.
It's about really identifying.
Well, who are you actually, howare you built, how do you
respond to things, what are yourvalues?
(09:35):
And I think that's anotherthing that's probably an
important key to you know thiswhole topic of purpose and
meaning and passion.
What would you say in terms ofthat, in terms of identifying
and understanding our personalvalues?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, I think it's really important to give
ourselves the permission to bewhoever we are and be okay with
that and just look ourselves inthe mirror and say, okay, these
are my strengths, these are mytalents, these are my strong
sides and these are the thingsthat are not my strong suit.
You know, I am both great andI'm also flawed.
(10:17):
At the same time, right, andaccept that full humanity, that
we have, the full complexity ofour humanity.
And what I think helps a lotwith that is curiosity, just
this openness and curiosity toget to know ourselves like a
child would or a scientist,because we are all unique.
(10:41):
We are all unique.
That's a wonderful paradox.
We're all nobody's specialbecause everybody's unique.
So if everybody's unique,nobody's special, but that's
still, you know we are still.
Each of us is different fromanother.
There is no other human beinglike ourselves, right?
So I think that's like kind ofradical self-acceptance when you
(11:03):
can look at yourself and notfeel the sting of judgment, but
just acceptance for who you are.
And sometimes that's difficultto do on your own and it really
helps to have another person.
This is why they say love heals.
We heal through ourrelationships.
Being loved and accepted byanother is really healing.
(11:26):
But you can also do that with atherapist or with a coach, and
they do say that that's the mostpowerful part of any kind of
work like this coaching ortherapy, because you're being
accepted without judgment, andthat is something we that's the
luxury we don't really alwayshave.
We always have this like innercritic, actively, like this
(11:49):
voice of the inner critic in ourheads, and it's difficult to be
honest with ourselves when allthis time there's this other
voice that's just waiting for usto say something stupid or to
trying to catch us doingsomething wrong, right and
criticizing us.
This is why I think we it's noteasy to be honest with
(12:10):
ourselves because this internal,this inner critic, is
relentless.
And so working with anotherperson or just being in the
presence of another person whocan soften that internal judge,
can make us more honest aboutwho we are, and then we ever
would be honest if we were justalone in a room in front of a
(12:34):
mirror, which is a paradox,right, you would think that you
would be more honest whennobody's listening, but you are
listening, your inner critic islistening.
Nobody's listening, but you arelistening, your inner critic is
listening.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, I love this, that you bring this up, and I
mean, first of all, we're allhuman, yeah, and being human
comes with.
You know this wholeperfectionistic thing that so
many people get caught up in.
Right, I have to be perfect ineverything.
I can't have faults, otherwisethere's something wrong with me.
(13:07):
I feel like that's a bit of asocially conditioned, maybe,
coping mechanism, survivalmechanism and understanding.
You know the non-duality of wehave strengths and we have
weaknesses and all of us do, andlike that's the ultimate shadow
work right there, right, toaccept, you know, all of you, so
(13:30):
that you can become whole.
I think that you know hidingthose pieces away that you don't
want to accept or look at takesup so much energy, yeah, and it
probably keeps you from a lotof these other things that we're
talking about in terms ofaccepting your design, accepting
who you are, and it's funnythat you've mentioned I have a
(13:53):
little note on my computerscreen.
I put it up here a few years agoafter I went through a program.
That sort of was a bit of aninitiation, and I wrote down
there's nothing special about me, yet everything is special
about me, right, we're all human, we're all the same in that
(14:14):
regard, and just like asnowflake, each of us have a
slightly different blend ofshapes and flavors and what we
think, and flavors and what wethink how we express ourselves.
Yeah, that acceptance piece isso, so important.
I love that you talked aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
That's a beautiful metaphor.
The snowflake right.
When you look at a bunch ofsnowflakes, they're all the same
, but they're not right, being asnowflake is nothing special,
but each one is unique.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
To me that's the most beautiful paradox, and I also
know that the whole analogy ofsnowflake in society, some use
that sort of analogy of asnowflake to describe people who
might be like too sensitive.
Yeah, yeah, that just kind ofgoes to show that what one
person sees one way, anotherperson is going to see it
(15:10):
another way.
And that whole concept of oh,you're too sensitive.
I think that reinforces a lotof that inner critic that you're
talking about.
It reinforces a lot of theshoulds that we think that we
should do it this way becausethis, you know, people are
telling us that we're toosensitive or too different or
whatever.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Too sensitive?
What does that even mean?
Too sensitive according to whom?
According to what criteria?
Like is there a universalbenchmark for how much
sensitivity is appropriate?
Very good questions.
And you know, I think it's evendangerous not to be sensitive.
(15:50):
Like if you have low thresholdfor pain, you're going to react
pretty quickly, right?
If you don't, you know you'regoing to suffer some damage
before you realize you're beinghurt.
I think there is.
You can think about sensitivityas a negative trait, or at least
not a very useful one, becauseyou go through life and you get
easily bruised or hurt, but atthe same time, you're more
(16:14):
attuned to what suits you andyou can more easily recognize
what doesn't, and so you canregulate yourself, your life.
You can build a life that'smore aligned with who you are
than if you're just like goingthrough life unaware of your
sensitivities or just not payingthat much attention to what
(16:36):
fits or what doesn't fit.
You're like really robust andyou're really strong and you can
handle anything, and you justlike end up being rough, and
that's how you win battles inlife, that's how you achieve
goals just by bulldozing yourway through life.
I think you know you can end uppretty bruised and hurt that
way and not even realize it, andthen one day you wake up with
(17:00):
even medical problems, right?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Absolutely.
I think a lot of it might be.
You know, when someone issaying too sensitive, I think
there might be a bit of asocially conditioned paradigm
about what they've been taughtis acceptable or not acceptable
and I think that kind of speaksto that whole like shadow work.
Again there's something thatthey're not accepting and that's
going to cause some level offriction at some point.
(17:23):
And I think the same can betrue about if you are a
sensitive person.
I think that the more that youcan accept that and work with it
, it actually opens up yourcapacity and resilience so that
you don't get overwhelmed bybeing a highly sensitive person.
Actually the science provesthat to be true.
(17:43):
Right the whole, integrating thethings, so that you are whole
and accept all the parts ofyourself.
And I think that sometimes whenwe allow ourselves to listen to
all those socially conditionedmessages of you're too sensitive
or you should be doing this orsay, for example, oh, that's
(18:04):
just selfish to focus on whatmakes you happy and your purpose
and your passions, especiallyif you are in a position where
you know from the outside,looking in, people are saying
you're successful, you're doingwell, like you should just be
happy with what you have.
Meanwhile, maybe you knowyou're not taking into
(18:27):
consideration how you'redesigned, or your passion or
your purpose, or you're notworking with who you are or
identifying what you actuallywant, and I think that's another
piece of it is.
Sometimes there can be maybe abit of guilt or shame around
that of like yeah, but I shouldjust be happy.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Oh, yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that.
That is so, so common.
Yeah, the shame, the guilt forwanting something else, even
though our life is pretty goodby the usual standards.
Yeah, we live in times when youcan wake up in the morning,
open the news and read aboutwars and disasters happening in
(19:08):
some remote place, right, and atthe same time, you have your
cozy Western life where you, youknow, work from home or you
ride in a I don't know in a nicecar to get to work.
You sit in your comfortableoffice.
You know it's mind-boggling,right.
And then you have to admit toyourself that you're not happy,
(19:32):
while being aware that there arepeople dying.
I understand why people feelguilty and where this is coming
from when they just like, whenyou juxtapose those two facts,
it's kind of mind boggling,right.
I think gratitude can coexistwith wanting more, right, you
(19:52):
can understand that, in thegreater spectrum of things,
you're living a good life.
You're actually lucky to bealive and healthy and have a job
and have, you know, a goodincome, like the fact that you
are a competent, smart person.
Right, it's a luxury, in a wayto be, to not be fulfilled with
(20:15):
our work, which we chose, whichis actually, you know, cozy,
well-paying job, whatever it is,whether you're running your
business or if you're workingfor someone else.
So it is, in the greaterspectrum of things.
It is a problem that mostpeople still don't have.
Unfortunately, they're dealingwith other problems, but that
(20:36):
doesn't change your reality.
You're not those people.
You're not living there.
You're going through whatyou're going through right now.
I think I mentioned before thevery reason why you can even
notice that you're not beingfulfilled is because you
fulfilled all the other needs,more primary needs, right For
safety.
For, you know, all of yourmaterial needs are met, and now
(20:58):
you have the space to thinkabout what makes me truly happy,
what makes me alive, what do Ireally really want?
Right?
This is something that humans,by the way, workers of the world
have been fighting for.
Like.
This is a battle that you know,unions.
We are here thanks to thosepeople.
Right Now, we're in a positionwhere we can actually ask
(21:21):
ourselves after we've achievedsuccess but is this what I truly
want?
It's something to cherish,right?
And I think it's possible to,at the same time, understand how
privileged you are for evenbeing able to ask that and be
grateful for all the good stuffthat you have, appreciative of
that stuff, and because this isnot either or it's both and
(21:45):
right, and at the same timerecognize that your soul, or
whatever you believe in yourheart, your mind, craves
something else.
That's how I think about it,not like as a mutually exclusive
thing, but as both, and I lovethat and again that goes back
right to the non-duality.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Both things can be true at once.
And you know yes, it's truethere are people who are
struggling, whether it be, youknow, there's people dying,
there's people at war, there'speople who are struggling to
make ends meet, for example.
And you know you can be on theother side of that and have
moved up the hierarchy of needsto the point where now you're
(22:29):
successful and you're achievingthe things that those people
would love to achieve.
And now you're questioning well, it's still not enough.
And what are your thoughts onthis?
This just kind of came to mymind, especially if you're
(22:50):
questioning this from the lensof this isn't enough, because I
want to be making a meaningfuldifference, and I feel like I'm
not making as much of ameaningful difference as
something in my soul is tellingme that I want.
In that case, is it reallyselfish to be thinking about how
can I fulfill my purpose?
And instead consider it I wantto fulfill my highest level
(23:12):
purpose so I can make a bigger,more meaningful difference.
You know, it's going to make mefeel better and I'm making a
difference for others.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yeah, if you're driven by the need to make a
meaningful difference, a biggerimpact than you are already
making, that's one of the mostselfless things you can do.
Right, you're sacrificingeverything you've built.
Right, you're consideringdropping your entire career so
you could pursue something morethat makes a bigger impact, or?
(23:44):
I mean, that is the definitionof selflessness, right?
This isn't just about howyou're going to express yourself
in the world.
It's, this is about the world.
Like, what trail are you goingto leave?
Like, what impact are you goingto have on the world?
It's about others.
It's not just about you.
I mean, we're meaning makingmachines and we can't just live
(24:06):
for ourselves.
We are wired for connection andfor, yeah, for giving right.
Earlier, before we startedrecording, we talked about the
phenomenon of bullshit jobs.
I'd just like to brieflymention that, with the rise of
productivity, we have justinvented so many roles that are
just tiny.
(24:27):
They're a tiny cog in a bigmachine, right, and people can
sense that.
People can feel that that thework they do is kind of like I
don't want to say pointless likeit's work that does produce
real value, but just in thegreat scheme of things, maybe
it's not really that important.
And when you get laid off andyou realize the company doesn't
(24:51):
really need you, not just thatthey lay you off, they
completely cancel out the wholeposition, like they just
eliminate the role, right.
That makes you wonder.
And a lot of people are doingthese jobs that are kind of
administrative or clerical orthey're just like one tiny piece
of a bigger, you know, chain ofthings and that really, I think
(25:17):
, leaves a mark when you knowthat the work you do is just
this tiny, tiny piece and it'shard to hide that fact from
yourself.
Like, on some level people feelthat and there's a really big
rise of disengagement at work.
Very few people are activelyengaged at work.
I think more than 80% of peopleare actively disengaged at work
(25:40):
.
Like that tells us something.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
It sounds kind of like the term quiet quitting.
Is that kind of?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, there's definitely that Quiet quitting
is when people just kind of giveup, they decide they're not
going to try.
I mean, they still do theirwork, but just enough to get by.
That's, I think, what's usuallymeant by quiet quitting.
I think it's also because youknow if you get laid off you
might get a severance package,whereas when, if you quit,
(26:11):
you're not going to get anything.
So sometimes people wait to belaid off so they can leave with
a good severance package andstart doing something else.
But it just shows ouralienation from work, from the
work itself from, and thatalienation leads to the
alienation from ourselves, right, and it leads to cynicism.
I've met so many people who arereally cynical about the
(26:31):
companies they work for or justthe world where they think about
company culture.
All of those are just buzzwords, that doesn't mean anything.
Yeah, yeah, they can saywhatever they want, but tomorrow
they can just fire me.
And this is not company culture, it's transactional.
I'm here for the money, justpay me and leave me alone.
(26:53):
A lot of people reach that pointbecause they get disillusioned
by these narratives thatcompanies produce about
togetherness and employeewell-being and all of that,
whereas nothing changes the corefacts and that is, that the job
that you're like, the work thatyou do, is not really that
important or meaningful, right,and nothing can compensate for
(27:18):
that realization.
There's nothing that can reallycompensate.
Maybe money can in the shortrun, maybe the fact that you
have a good work-life balanceand that's the period of your
life when you prioritize familyor something right, so you can
compensate in the short run, butI don't think it's really
(27:39):
possible to do so in the longrun.
If you do, that means youreally need to distance yourself
and be completely emotionallyseparate from your work and
really deeply cynical about it.
I don't know, very heavy, yeah,in so many areas.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I mean having worked as a naturopathic doctor, I've
seen what it can do in terms ofhealth and symptoms.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
And what if something that, like maybe you know,
sticks with you to this day,something that you've seen?
I'm trying to think off the topof my head here.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
The first thing that comes to mind and it trying to
think off the top of my headhere.
The first thing that comes tomind and it may or may not be
kind of related At one point Iwas working a lot with people
with autoimmunity.
You think about autoimmunity.
The immune system is looking atsome aspect or system of your
body as not self and it's tryingto protect yourself by
(28:46):
attacking that part.
And I see energetically thatoftentimes somebody who does
have autoimmunity there might bethis tendency that there's
something about themselves thatthey don't accept.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Wow.
So like something about them isconsidered a foreign body by
their immune system.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
right yeah, Wow, and so like emotionally or
energetically, you know, ifthere's.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
You know we've been talking earlier about how
important it is to accept howyou're built, who you are, what
your preferences are, what youreally want no-transcript who
(29:48):
have contacted me did talk abouttheir physical symptoms like
weight gain, hair loss, you knowstuff like that, not full blown
like diseases, but justannoying physical symptoms of
various severity that theythemselves kind of brought into
connection with theirunhappiness at work.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, I mean it makes sense.
All of these things can beassociated with, say, for
example, stress and stresshormones.
Right, if you are, you know,ignoring yourself, or you know
not happy, suppressing part ofyourself, feeling dissociated,
it's going to cause stress andit can cause symptoms like that.
(30:32):
And that kind of takes me to aquestion you know you've
mentioned about.
You know they realize they'renot happy.
What does happiness mean?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
That's a great question.
That's a huge question.
Happiness is such a broad termand we use it all the time.
But I mean to define happiness.
That's a really ambitiousproject, like I can tell you
what I mean by happy, what Ithink people mostly mean by
happiness.
I think we usually mean feelinggood most of the time, just
(31:08):
like the absence of pain and thepresence of pleasant emotions.
But in the context of work, Iam not sure that chasing this
type of happiness I would callit hedonic happiness.
Right, the feel good happiness.
I mean, if you feel it, that'samazing.
(31:28):
If you have a kind of a jobthat provides you with that,
that's amazing.
But that feeling is fleeting,it's not always in our control
and you know you can feel happywhen you eat a lot of chocolate.
Right, it's the dopamine thatcreates that happiness.
What I think sustains people themost is a different kind of
(31:51):
happiness and it's I like tocall that happiness fulfillment.
I use the terms interchangeably, but I prefer to talk about
deep fulfillment, and that'sdifferent than happiness.
Deep fulfillment is a sense ofdeep contentment.
It's more than a feeling, it'sa state of mind, it's a state of
being.
It's more than a feeling, it'sa state of mind, it's a state of
(32:12):
being.
The ancient Greeks had awonderful word for that.
It's called eudaimonia.
I think I'm pronouncing itcorrectly.
I hope so.
E-u-d-a-i-m-o-n-i-a.
Right, it's a beautiful wordand it means deep fulfillment,
and this is what people feelwhen their work gives them
(32:35):
meaning and presence.
It's not tied to how you feelin every given moment, like you
can have moments of frustration,of doubt, you can work hard,
you can feel tired, buteudaimonia is also like it's
almost like an after effect.
It's how you generally feelabout your work, not in every
single moment, but just whatyour general attitude towards
(32:56):
your work is.
And this is why I think itmatters to define your unique
architecture of fulfillment,like what really?
What do I need to be trulyfulfilled at work?
What factors, what elementsneed to be present and work to
(33:17):
design your work life aroundthose factors, build them into
your work life, and the naturalconsequence should be this deep
sense of fulfillment.
If you have work that, if you dothe work that you're really
good at, that you really likedoing, you're going to enjoy
doing it right.
If you're doing what you'regood at, if you're doing what
(33:38):
you're naturally good at, notjust what you're skilled at.
I think that's an importantdistinction to make, because you
can learn skills, but what kindof?
Comes naturally to you.
So, if you can do that, if youcan spend a lot of time doing
those activities, if the workyou do aligns with your values
right, values are what isimportant to you, your
(33:58):
principles about how life shouldbe and how people should treat
each other is there, right?
There is an impact and it's apositive impact and you can see
it, you can measure it, you can,and it's an impact that is
important to you.
It's not some trivial impactthat other people value, but
(34:21):
you're just disconnected from it, right?
So it's important that youvalue that impact that is going
to give you a sense of meaningand purpose in your work, to
give you a sense of meaning andpurpose in your work.
And then your work really needsto fit the larger scheme of your
life.
Like our work, life doesn'thappen in a vacuum.
If there's friction betweenwork and private life, then
(34:41):
you're going to have problems,right?
If you, for example I don'tknow you have these emotional
needs, like you want a lot ofconnection with people, right?
And your work is just isolating, you spend a lot of time alone.
This is going to take a toll onyou, or vice versa you prefer
(35:02):
to work alone and your workrequires you to be in constant
contact with people.
That is probably going to wearon you.
And then the context of yourlife.
If you, for example I don'tknow you're the kind of person
who likes to travel a lot, beactive, and your work just keeps
you tied to your desk from nineto five, right?
It's not going to be a greatfit, right?
(35:25):
So I think all of those factors, you need to take them into
account when you think aboutwhat would be a great choice of
career for you or a great job.
I kind of diverged from, likewhat was your question?
Speaker 1 (35:39):
All of that was great and it all of that stemmed from
that initial question ofhappiness.
What does that actually mean?
Yeah, yeah, and I loved, yeah,I loved what you said about it's
not just about just alwayshaving that hedonic, like it's
not always rainbows, sprinklesand unicorns, right, you can't
(36:03):
be always just riding a high,you know, that's not the way
life works.
Yeah, and I think that'ssomething that maybe some people
might mistake.
Right that you know, just likewe have strengths and weaknesses
, human nature is not just aboutgood vibes.
(36:24):
Only, that's a bit of bypassingthe fact that there are moments
of happiness.
In terms of like that hedonichappiness, there are moments
where you aren't going to feelthat way.
And what you mentioned aboutthe eudaimonia, that like the
fulfillment underneath of it,even if you're not necessarily
(36:47):
in like an ecstatic place, whatcame to me, as you were saying,
that is like a sense of innerpeace, of with what is where
you're at that aligns.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah, I realize I also use the words meaning and
purpose interchangeably, butthey're not exactly the same.
Purpose is more about theimpact and what is the effect of
your work, but the sense ofmeaning can come from doing
things that make sense to you.
Right, it doesn't have to havea huge noble purpose, right?
(37:22):
Or it doesn't even have to havea purpose.
People can feel a sense ofmeaning when they do activities
that are just meaningful in andof themselves, right, just doing
the activity for the sake ofdoing it.
So, a sense of meaning andespecially a sense of purpose.
But if you have both, that canreally sustain us.
(37:43):
When the going gets tough, whenthe work is not fun, when you
have to work really hard longhours, when it's stressful or
whatever problems, you have.
That sense of deep meaning andpurpose is something that can
sustain you much longer than ifyou have all the other
conditions met and you don'thave meaning and purpose.
(38:05):
Because meaning and purposegives you this.
Why, why should I keep doingthis if it's so hard?
Purpose gives you this.
Why, why should I keep doingthis if it's so hard?
Why should I keep doing this ifit doesn't pay?
Well, if you're just starting abusiness and you're not, you
know, getting paid.
Well, why should I keep doingthis?
If it's so stressful, if it'sso hard, if it's?
You know, you have boringperiods, right.
(38:27):
This gives you the reason tokeep going, even though it it
doesn't feel great, because itmakes sense to do so.
There is a higher purpose,something more important than
how you feel in that particularmoment.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
I love that.
The word that came to mind isit's like a fuel that keeps you
going.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah, yeah, I also have that metaphor in my head,
yeah that's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
So, with the typical type of person that you tend to
work with, where are theyusually at when?
It's when they are at the primeplace to be ready to work with
you.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Well, they're aware that something is off, like
they're not aligned with theirwork.
They don't enjoy their workanymore.
There's a deep sense ofincongruence I love that word
congruence and incongruence.
Like what they say, what theydo and what they think and feel
is not aligned, there is aschism between those right, and
(39:35):
this actually is really painfulfor us.
When there's such incoherence,we feel existential despair and
I think the best way I woulddescribe these people when
they're at the prime to workwith me is some kind of an
identity crisis where they'renot really sure what they want.
They have a pretty clear ideaof what they don't want, but
(39:58):
they don't know exactly what itis that they want, or at least
they're not ready to admit tothemselves what it is that they
want, because it feels foreign,it feels forbidden or just not
possible, right.
And there's a lot of fear.
And even more than fear,there's anxiety about the future
.
Like how will I make it work?
(40:18):
Like what do I do?
Should I just drop everything?
Try something else?
How is that going to work out?
So this is, I think, where mostof them are Like this.
It's dominant emotion maybe isanxiety and confusion and just
this deep discontent with theirwork life, but it's not directed
(40:42):
at one specific element.
It's just like general feelingof discontent and they're really
frustrated because they're sosuccessful and they think they
should be happy, they think theyshould be grateful and they
wonder if they're spoiled foreven thinking like this.
So they don't even permitthemselves, maybe the full
(41:05):
extent of this emotion becausethey're trying to suppress it,
because, like I mean, what doesthat say about me?
Look at what a wonderful life Ihave.
And here I am thinking aboutchange.
And so they're kind of stuck ina limbo.
I would say they're stuck in alimbo, unable to move forward
from that place.
That's not an easy place to beis it?
(41:26):
No, no, not at all.
Not at all.
And sometimes they getunderstanding from their family
and friends, but often theydon't.
Often the people who areclosest to them, who mean well
they all mean well try to remindthem about how lucky they are
and how they should be happy andall of the good things they
have.
People who are close to us tendto be, you know, they don't
(41:51):
want anything bad to happen tous and I think, in general, they
want us to stay safe.
They want to see us survivemore than they want to see us
thrive, especially parents.
So I think it's reallyimportant to be careful who you
ask for help or advice aboutwhat you should do next.
Because, yeah, not everybodycan relate to this feeling of
(42:12):
having everything technicallyhaving everything and still that
not being enough for you tofeel happy.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
That makes me think of what we were talking about
earlier, about examples andmodels.
Right, if you're looking atpeople who are showing you an
example of maybe just getting by, just surviving, just
functional, you can't expectthat their suggestions are going
to be the thing that are goingto help you get from functional
to flourishing.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
And if you're at a job whereit's part of the culture in your
team to complain about work,right, or you just kind of
happen to surround yourself withpeople who are going through
the same thing, then it'sdifficult to see a way out
Because that's all you see thewhole day, that's all you hear
(43:02):
the whole day, and it'ssometimes people get to this
point where it's really hard tobelieve that it's even possible
to be happy at work.
They think everybody, justnobody likes their job, right.
So, yeah, I think the circle ofpeople that we're surrounded
with is really important andreally changes our perspective.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
So this is where part two of three of the interview
ends, because we end upswitching topics.
If you haven't yet listened topart one of this interview, you
can access that through the linkin the show notes, or you can
go directly to episode 26 in theInner Purpose podcast and have
a listen to that and, shortly,part three of this interview.
(43:51):
The final part of thisinterview will be released in
the near future.
This one is gold.
We're going to get into allthings reality in terms of how
you're interpreting reality, thelens through which you're
looking at things, and what allof that means in terms of your
purpose, work and finding peaceand happiness and satisfaction
(44:16):
with what it is that you'redoing.
You can find the links to theother two podcast episodes in
the show notes once they'republished, and you can find all
the information to learn moreabout Anita in the show notes.
I've linked her website and howyou can find her on social
media.
(44:36):
So I hope that you enjoyed thissecond of three conversations
with Anita and I hope you comeback to listen to the rest and,
as always, thank you for beinghere.
Until next time, take care.
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