August 4, 2025 • 31 mins
Have you ever hit a wall in your successful career and wondered, “Is this really all there is?” In this first part of a profound three-part series, I sit down with purpose-driven coach Anita Čavrag to explore the rich and often misunderstood terrain of meaning, passion, and purpose at work.
Anita shares her journey of leaving a prestigious but unfulfilling career in HR to pursue coaching, and we dive deep into why so many high-achievers feel empty despite outward success.
We unpack the subtle but powerful differences between passion and purpose, how to spot a work identity crisis, and the real reasons why that “spark” might feel like it’s missing.
This episode is for anyone who’s ever questioned their professional path and craves more meaning in what they do. Anita brings thought-provoking insights and lived experience to the table, and this is just the beginning.
Key Topics Discussed:
- The difference between passion and purpose in the context of career
- Why success can sometimes feel hollow, especially in mid-career
- The subtle emotional and existential signs of work misalignment
- How language shapes our understanding of what we really want
- The role of exemplars and social proof in expanding what we believe is possible
- Practical steps to identify what’s truly missing from your work life
This is just the beginning of an enlightening series with Anita Čavrag. If you found value in this conversation, be sure to listen to parts two and three when they’re released. Anita and Michelle delve into the emotional, physical, and psychological toll of ignoring one’s purpose, and how to recognize the signs before burnout sets in.
Resources & Links:
- Connect with Anita Čavrag – Website
- Follow Anita on Facebook
- Follow Anita on LinkedIn
- Part 2 of this interview: Ignoring Your Calling: The Cost of Misalignment at Work and What to Do About It
- Part 3 of 3: Reframing Reality and Redefining Work (Coming Soon)
Don’t forget to rate, review, and share the podcast if you enjoyed this episode. It helps others discover the show and join the conversation. Until next time, take care.
CONNECT WITH MICHELLE:
- Instagram @michelledowker_wellbalance
- Facebook @michelledowkerwellbalance
- Email michelle@michelledowker.com
FREE:
Name your real gifts & start aligning your work with who you actually are now. https://michelledowker.thrivecart.com/chart-your-power/
WORK WITH MICHELLE:
Soul Purpose Diagnostic — A fast, focused chart review for paradigm-shifting professionals ready to lead from their real design https://michelledowker.thrivecart.com/mini-review/
Soul Purpose Lab — Step into the next chapter of your purpose work with a full-body "Yes. That's it.". https://michelledowker.thrivecart.com/purpose-lab/
Disclaimer:
This podcast is for informational & inspirational purposes only. Nothing shared is intended as medical, psychological, or personalized advice, and should not be used as a substitute for professional support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the
Inner Purpose Podcast.
I'm so happy that you're here.
So today's episode I'minterviewing a beautiful soul.
Her name is Anita Chavrag.
Anita is a coach for highachieving leaders and founders
who've built impressive careersor businesses, but they feel
(00:20):
unfulfilled and sense it's timefor a profound change, even if
they're not sure what they trulywant, she helps them reconnect
with who they really are, getclear on what would actually
light them up, and design workthat aligns with their purpose
and their true nature.
Her approach blends a master'sin psychology, nlp, existential
(00:44):
coaching, a decade-long careerin HR and a lifelong obsession
with the human mind, plus herown lived experience of walking
away from a prestigious butstifling path to follow her true
calling.
We had a lengthy and deepconversation that was rich with
(01:07):
so much magic.
I've decided to separate ourconversation into three
different podcast episodes sothat you can take in the
richness and depth of each oneon your own time and then come
back for another level of depthwith each of these three podcast
episodes.
(01:28):
I will link each of them in theshow notes so that you can
continue to listen one afteranother as you choose.
In this first episode, we'retalking all about purpose and
meaning.
What's the difference betweenpurpose and passion, and what
are the things to consider aboutyour work if it's not feeling
(01:51):
purposeful right now.
And then, in the second of thethree episodes, we're talking
about what happens if you don'tactually follow your purpose.
We talk about maybe some of theexistential signs, and even
physical health signs, that canoccur when you're not actually
following your purpose, whenyou're not actually
(02:13):
understanding how you'redesigned or what optimal career
is right for you, and, if youignore those whispers, what that
can turn into over time,especially if you are a highly
sensitive or neurocomplex person.
And then, in the final episode,we get deep into talking about
(02:36):
reality.
We talk about the filters ofyour unconscious mind and how
they might be affecting howyou're seeing your level of
purpose, how you'reunderstanding meaning, how you
might be affecting how you'reseeing your level of purpose,
how you're understanding meaninghow you might be seeing the
options that are on the tableand what to consider so that you
can align yourself to your mostpurposeful work and feel deeply
(02:59):
satisfied while doing it.
So this is a little overview ofwhat to expect in these next
three episodes.
So let's get started with thefirst one now.
I hope you enjoy.
I'm so excited to have a chatwith you today.
Thank you for being on thepodcast.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Thank you, Michelle, for having me.
Yeah, my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
We've been having some really fun conversations
about the crisis of meaning andpurpose and authenticity and
inauthenticity and how it'simpacting things, especially
nowadays, and Anita has somereally amazing insights and
perspectives that I'm superexcited to hear more about and
(03:47):
have you share with me and mylisteners.
So I want to open this up byasking you you know this, the
crisis of meaning and purposeand inauthenticity.
What does that mean to you?
How would you?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
describe that.
Yeah, I think we live in theday and age when there's a lot
of that going on.
I feel like people, when theyreach a certain level of success
material success in their work,in their business or career
they start thinking about youknow, why am I doing all of this
?
What's the meaning of all this?
(04:22):
Do I want to keep doing this?
And I think this happensbecause when we satisfy our
material needs, then the spaceopens for us to think about
other needs that are more maybesubtle or emotional needs that
we haven't been paying that muchattention to all this time.
That's when it becomes obviousthat the work that we do perhaps
(04:46):
doesn't align fully with ourtrue nature, with who we want to
be, with who we are, with ourvalues.
Yeah, just like our true nature.
And this is when I think a lotof people hit that spot, when
they just lose a sense ofmeaning and purpose in their
work.
It can also happen because ofsome disillusionment, like over
(05:09):
time, you realize maybe thatyour job, the company you work
for, or the whole industry issomehow corrupt or unethical and
you just can't stand thatanymore and your value system
really starts shouting that thisjust doesn't sit right with you
.
Right, when we are younger,first of all, we don't really
(05:29):
always realize that it takes usa while to figure out how the
world works and we don't knowourselves that well.
And then, over time, as we gainthis knowledge, we start to
notice this discrepancy and itstarts to bother us.
And this is when, I think, alot of people hit that midlife
identity crisis.
And I'm specifically interestedin the work identity crisis,
(05:54):
not just the whole general life,the cliche point when you want
to just do something naughty buya convertible or something but
just like in your work life,when you reach that point when
nothing makes sense anymore, youdon't know who you are, you
don't know what you want and youjust feel a deep sense of
misalignment and meaninglessnessand you start questioning
(06:17):
everything.
Yeah, that's a very painfulpoint in a lot of successful
people's lives.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and my goodness, I
have so many questions.
First, actually, you know, justto backtrack, I'd love to know
if you care to share a littlebit of a summary of how you got
to where you are now with thework that you do.
What is the work that you do?
A little bit of a story aboutyou.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Oh yeah, thank you for asking that.
Yeah, I've been thinking, youknow, before our conversation,
like how to summarize thiswithout going into all the you
know details about what happenedto me.
But what I just described isessentially what happened to me.
I used to work in HR for abouta decade and I reached the point
when I was really successful onpaper.
(07:07):
I had a wonderful CV, I had agreat position, I had a really
good salary in a prestigiouscompany, but something in me
just felt empty and I juststopped believing that the work
I was doing was actually makingany meaningful difference.
Not that it wasn't making adifference in the eyes of others
, but that Not that it wasn'tmaking a difference in the eyes
of others but that kind ofdifference wasn't enough for me
(07:29):
anymore.
I just thought that I waswasting my time and my talents
and my potential doing thingsthat are kind of mundane or
trivial or don't have a longlasting value.
You know, like I bring somevalue and then it immediately
gets destroyed.
I hire people and then theyquit or they get laid off or
(07:51):
something like that.
So it just felt like I'mwasting my life and it was
unbearable To me.
That thought was unbearable, andI was never one of these people
who wanted to change the world.
I never really thought ofmyself as someone who needs to
do big things.
I didn't want to do big things.
I just wanted to do somethingmeaningful, even if it was on a
(08:14):
small scale.
And I couldn't find that in mywork.
And it wasn't about my company,because if I change my company,
if I move to a differentcompany, it would be the same
because it's the same type ofwork.
My main problem wasn't with theenvironment or with the setup of
my work.
It was really with the workitself, and so I needed to
(08:37):
reinvent my career.
I needed to find a newdirection, I needed to find a
new profession, and that's how Iended up doing what I do.
I was lucky enough to get ataste of coaching.
I got certified for a coach andI experienced firsthand the
power of coaching and I fell inlove with that.
(08:57):
I realized I have this reallypowerful gift and I thought it
would be a waste of my life if Ididn't try to create a career
out of it.
And because I felt sopassionately about this whole
topic of meaning and purpose atwork, or the lack of it, because
that's what happened to me.
I felt drawn to help otherpeople find that true calling or
(09:22):
a new calling.
It doesn't have to be that theprevious one was wrong, it's
just it could be that they justoutgrew it and now it's time for
a new identity to emerge, a newpath to unfold, and I felt
really, really drawn towardsdoing that and helping other
people go through the sameprocess that I went through, but
less painfully and more quicklythan I did.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Oh, my goodness, that's so beautiful.
Thank you, that sounds likethat would likely be very
meaningful for you.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, it is.
It's the reason why I wake upin the morning.
It's the reason why I can bearthe hardship of entrepreneurship
when you're just building yourbusiness and you don't know how
it's going to go.
And that gives me the strengthto keep on going, because I
believe in the importance ofthis work, that to me, that's
(10:15):
the incredible power of not justfinding your passion but
finding really purpose, becauseI feel like passion can't really
sustain you as much or as longas purpose true purpose can.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
So what would you say ?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
the difference between those two are Well,
passion is something that you'rereally interested in, something
that really excites you.
You lose yourself when you'redoing that activity.
You get into flow.
And not to say that it's bad tohave passion I mean, if you can
do what you're passionate about, you're probably going to have
a very exciting career.
(10:51):
But I feel like there's toomuch emphasis on that passion.
It's something you need to find.
I think it's also something youneed to cultivate, something
that kind of finds you.
A lot of people stumble upontheir passion.
It can't be really found in astandard way like I'm going to
find my passion now.
It kind of finds you.
It depends on your ability tokind of surrender yourself to
(11:15):
new activities and allowyourself to fall in love with
something, follow your interests.
I think a lot of people don'teven they can't really predict
that something is going tobecome their passion until
they've tried it.
So I think it's a matter of youknow, exploring things and
allowing yourself to fall inlove with something.
(11:36):
I don't think passion alone cansustain you.
If it's meaningless, if itdoesn't create an impact that
you think is important, then itcan just be a hobby.
We can be passionate about manythings and not have that, as
our profession, passion can alsobe exhausting, like if you're
(11:56):
really passionate about yourwork, that can mean being on an
emotional roller coaster.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So the extremes instead of finding a balance.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, it can be really intense and I think that
not every stage of life requiresyou to be passionate.
Sometimes you just maybe havethis period in life where you
don't want to give all ofyourself to your work, you don't
want it to consume you, andthere are periods when you do.
There are periods, especiallylike when we are younger we like
I think a lot of people likethat feeling.
(12:31):
I still like it.
I like to be consumed by mywork, but I can also imagine a
different time in my life whenyou know other things like
family will take priority.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, now what's the difference between passion and
purpose?
So you've given an overview ofpassion and how it can be
wonderful and it can also bedraining and it can be something
that you can get lost in andmaybe it's not the thing that's
going to really keep yougrounded and centered on an
(13:04):
ongoing basis.
So what would like purpose andmeaning and impact the other?
You know the other side of it.
How would you define ordescribe that?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I would say that meaning and purpose is almost
like the after effect.
It's what you experience whenyou do work that you consider
important.
Of course you can have overlap.
You can do passionate work thatyou deeply care about, the
impact of which is reallyimportant to you, and so you
have both passion and purpose.
(13:39):
But you can also have justpassion without purpose.
Like I'm really passionateabout drawing, but what's the
purpose of that?
I'm not making anybody's lifebetter because I'm not a pro.
I'm just doodling here on thepaper just for my own pleasure,
right?
You can also have purposewithout passion.
You can do meaningful work thatyou're just not excited about.
(14:00):
You know on an intellectuallevel that it creates an
important difference, but it'snot the activities that you do.
You're not passionate aboutthem.
Maybe you're passionate aboutthe cause, so you really deeply
believe in the cause of yourwork.
Maybe you work for an NGO orsomething, but all day long you
(14:22):
have to fill out spreadsheetsand do admin work, and so you
have a lot of purpose and youknow that ultimately, filling
out spreadsheets is going tolead to an outcome that you
truly value and find importantand that gives your life meaning
.
But that's not reallysustainable because you just
don't enjoy doing it right.
There's no passion for the work.
So, yeah, these are veryabstract concepts and there's a
(14:45):
lot of overlap between them andit's hard to draw a firm line.
This is the clean line wherepassion stops and purpose begins
.
I think they all kind of feedinto each other.
Yeah, but I just like todemystify these terms.
I like to think about thesewords and the language that we
use critically, because thelanguage defines how we
(15:08):
understand reality, how weunderstand ourselves, and so if
we keep talking about purpose,but what we actually mean is,
you know something else, orpassion, and we actually mean
purpose, you know, we ought toget confused.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
If you were talking to somebody who had purpose but
no passion, what would thoughtsmight you share with that person
?
They're working a purposefuljob, but they're not feeling
passionate about what they'redoing.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Well, the first thing that comes to mind is I would
look into what are they reallypassionate about?
Right?
Why is passion missing?
I wouldn't really jump intoadvice before.
I did like a deeper diagnosisof what's going on, because
sometimes people say things butdon't necessarily mean exactly
(15:59):
what they said.
So, for instance, likesometimes people say, oh, I lack
confidence.
And then when you dig deeperyou realize it's not confidence
that they lack, it's maybe thatyou know, they're a little bit
afraid, but they're actuallypretty confident.
It's just that I don, they're alittle bit afraid, but they're
actually pretty confident.
It's just that I don't know.
They use that word for somereason because it's available,
(16:20):
but that's not exactly what theymean.
So, you know, when spark isgone, like what does that really
mean?
Does it mean you're notinterested in the work anymore?
Does it mean that maybe you'rejust bored, maybe there's too
much repetitiveness, maybeyou're not challenged enough,
maybe some emotional need is notbeing met, maybe you crave
novelty, maybe you craveconnection with people and
(16:41):
you're not getting that.
Maybe you're stuck at home,you're doing some kind of work
that doesn't really excite you,but that's not a sign that you
have permanently lost passionfor your work and now you need
to find a different line of work.
Maybe it just means that youneed to kind of do some
adjustments, and I think a lotof people don't realize how much
(17:03):
space they have to makeadjustments at work.
Of course there are someworkplaces that are closed and
closed-minded and you can'treally diverge too much from
your role, but a lot of peoplenever even try, they never even
have that conversation and saylook, I really value working
here, I believe in this work,but it's just I've been feeling
(17:25):
stagnant lately, or I've beenfeeling kind of bored and
unchallenged or realizing youknow, what is it that I actually
need?
We are better at realizing whatwe don't want, what bothers us,
what hurts, what's off, but westruggle sometimes to well often
to articulate that in the formof what we want, and so we often
(17:49):
come with a complaint.
But there is no desire behindcomplaint, it's not expressed
right, and there is alwaysdesire behind complaint, but we
sometimes struggle to articulateit, and so we are just left
with this feeling like, oh, Idon't feel good at work, and
then we use the most availableword, which is oh, it's just, I
(18:11):
lost that spark.
There's no passion.
Passion is a very common word,it's very often used, so we
might grab that word.
It's just I lost that spark.
There's no passion.
Passion is a very common word,it's very often used, so we
might grab that word becauseit's available to us.
I think it's really important todig deep and ask what does
passion mean for you?
What is so important aboutpassion?
Because when you start definingthese terms, when you start
unraveling, unpacking thislanguage, you get to the bottom
(18:34):
of what's really going on, whatis actually wrong, and then I
think you're in a betterposition to give advice or
provide some guidance, beforeyou actually know what's
happening.
Saying that you lost passion,that could mean so many things.
Right, what is the particularflavor of that feeling?
Where is it coming from?
(18:56):
And then we can think about.
You know what would be a goodnext step.
But if we just take it at facevalue of lost passion, you know
that doesn't really give us muchto work with.
I love that.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Absolutely.
I mean, you're speaking tosomebody who's all about getting
to the root of things right andunderstanding what's right
what's really underneath thattopical symptom or whatever,
that feeling of feeling off.
And I love how you've mentionedlike which, what flavor I use
(19:33):
that type of terminology as wellin terms of like you know what
is the flavor of.
You know this particularsymptom for you, in terms of
that root, and I'm hearing thata piece of that puzzle is
understanding.
You know not only what youdon't want but what's important
to you.
What are your preferences, whatare your needs, how are you
(19:54):
designed?
Like you've mentioned, somepeople really need connection
with other people and if youdon't understand that about
yourself and maybe your job islacking that, then you might
feel like something's off andyou might not recognize that oh,
it's because I'm not connectingwith people.
And sometimes we just assume,like you've mentioned, that
(20:20):
maybe it's just that I've lostthat spark, but really what it
is is that your particular needand accommodating your design
are not being met.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know you're anaturopath, you're a doctor, and
you know you're a naturopath,you're a doctor, so you also
know how you know.
When a certain disease ordisorder becomes very popular in
the media, suddenly everybody'sdiagnosed with it or
self-diagnoses with it becauseit's available, right, and so we
tend to see the symptoms thateverybody talks about and we put
(20:48):
ourselves into those boxes.
But it takes a little bit ofyou know, asking questions,
curious questions and diggingdeeper to understand what's
really going on.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Absolutely, and I loved how you mentioned not
everybody thinks about maybeeven bringing this up and saying
like I think I'm missing thisand seeing how you can make
adjustments in the workplacewithout leaving, without
changing, to actually make surethat it does fulfill the needs
(21:20):
and your design and yourpassions, so that it can feel
both purposeful and passionate.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, yeah, I think, as I said, we're often more
aware of what we don't want.
But if you come to youremployer, like your boss or your
manager, whoever, and you say,oh, I don't like this, I don't
like that, you know, you don'twant to, nobody wants to sound
destructive or like negative,you know.
And so we, we keep that toourselves.
But that's because we don'treally know what's on the other
(21:51):
side of that.
What's on the other side ofcomplaint.
What desire is there?
Okay, I don't want this.
I'm sick and tired of this.
This is getting really annoying.
I can't stand this.
Okay, but what do I wantinstead?
Defining that part is really,really difficult.
I have a whole theory whythat's difficult.
(22:11):
I can share it if you want, butI think this is where most
people get stuck.
I personally get stuck there aswell, and I need to do some
deep inner work to articulatewhat it is that I desire.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, it's hard to see yourself right and to see
maybe even what's possible whenyou don't know what's possible.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, when you have all these stories in your head
about what's possible, what'spermitted, then you can't see
outside of the realm of what youthink is possible and what's
permitted, right, and so youdon't dare to desire things that
fall outside of that spectrumbecause you don't want to be
disappointed or it doesn't evenoccur to you that you could
(22:55):
desire that.
It's just too big for you rightnow, it's just too far away
from what you're used to, fromwhat feels normal or just
possible, and so I think a bigpart of the work that you and I
do is expanding people'scontainer in which they operate,
expanding the realm of what'spossible to allow that other
(23:16):
things are possible as well, andthat, to me, that is the true
transformation to start wantingdifferently, to allow yourself
to want things that fall outsideof the spectrum of what you
think is permitted to you orpossible for you.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Mm-hmm, I love that and you're totally right.
It can completely change aparadigm to see what's outside
of, maybe, what's been modeledto you, what you believe is
possible, what you've beentaught that you should want, and
sometimes, if we haven't beenoffered other examples or
(23:55):
possibilities, once they'reoffered to us and once we can
actually see them, it can changea whole lot, can't it?
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah, yeah, and I love that you bring up other
examples, because sometimes wejust lack social proof.
We might even have a vague ideaof what we want, but if you
don't know anybody who does whatyou're dreaming about, it's
hard to believe it's possible.
And so I think it's really,really worthy to get outside of
your circle, meet new people andfigure out, like, look at what
(24:26):
they do, meet people who do thethings that you dream about
doing, because they're going tobe.
They're going to give you thatcrucial social proof that it is
truly possible.
I'm not sure if I would be ableto do this work if I haven't
had the experience that I had,if I haven't met the people who
are coaches, the trainers in mycertification, who do this for a
(24:49):
living, if I haven'texperienced this powerful
experience, I'm not sure if Iwould believe that something
like that is possible for aperson like me.
Before that, of course, I knewabout coaching.
The concept wasn't new, but itwas just so vague and abstract
and so unknown.
Like how do you even begin?
Like, who do you talk?
(25:10):
Like what do you do?
What's the first step to take?
It's overwhelming right.
So I think that's a reallysmart thing that anybody can do.
Just get outside of your circle, expose yourself to people who
do different things, especiallypeople who do the thing that you
are considering doing for aliving.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Oh my gosh, I love that it makes me think of I
recently wrote a post about this.
Something that I learned when Iwas in naturopathic college is
there's a term that one of myprofessors used and that is
called exemplars.
So exemplars can be you know hewas using flower remedies as an
(25:51):
example of exemplars like anexample of balance and attuned
note for you to attune to, andhe also mentioned that exemplars
can be people right, holding anexample of what's possible and
what might be balanced and foryou so that you can see an
example to live to, kind of liketuning a tuning fork or using a
(26:15):
tuning fork to tune to.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, now I'm just remembering all these, like from
NLP, all these concepts ofanchors, symbols, metaphors, all
those are really powerful toolsto help us kind of envision or
embody the thing that we want tobecome.
I'm just looking at that littleBuddha behind you, right?
How can you look at Buddha andnot feel a sense of balance, or
at least be reminded of a senseof balance and enlightenment,
(26:42):
everything that Buddha standsfor?
So, yeah, just like we like tosurround ourselves with items
that represent something, it'sreally powerful to surround
ourselves with people whorepresent possibilities that we
strive for.
I have this little ridiculousitem here.
This is a gigantic how do youcall this in English?
(27:03):
The thing for when you hang theropes.
You know, when you put the rope, you hang the clothes.
I'm sorry, right, a clothespin,yeah, yeah, but it's a gigantic
one and it's yellow and it justreminds me of playfulness.
To me, that representsplayfulness, and just having it
on the table reminds me to takethings a little bit less
(27:24):
seriously.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
I love that that is such a good reminder.
I think that especially in oursociety, we don't connect enough
to playfulness.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
That's true, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
So this is where the first of the three episodes
finishes, because right afterthis comment, we ended up
switching topics and, as areminder, there are two more
episodes where we continue thisrich and beautiful conversation.
In the second of the threepodcast episodes, we talk about
(28:03):
what some of the signs andindications might be that maybe
there's something to change oradjust, or whether or not we're
actually aligned with ourpurpose, and that can include
existential symptoms, emotionalsymptoms, physical symptoms,
especially if you're a highlysensitive or neuro complex
(28:25):
person and what to start tothink about and pay attention to
in order to turn that situationaround for yourself.
And then, in the third podcastepisode, we're going to get into
all things reality in terms ofhow you're interpreting reality,
the lens through which you'relooking at things, and what all
(28:47):
of that means in terms of yourpurpose, work and finding peace
and happiness and satisfactionwith what it is that you're
doing.
You can find the links to theother two podcast episodes in
the show notes once they'republished, and you can find all
the information to learn moreabout Anita in the show notes.
(29:09):
I've linked her website and howyou can find her on social
media.
So I hope you enjoyed the firstof the three conversations with
Anita, and I hope you come backto listen to the rest and, as
always, thank you for being here.
Until next time, take care.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the
Inner Purpose Podcast.
I'm so happy that you're here.
So today's episode I'minterviewing a beautiful soul.
Her name is Anita Chavrag.
Anita is a coach for highachieving leaders and founders
who've built impressive careersor businesses, but they feel
(00:20):
unfulfilled and sense it's timefor a profound change, even if
they're not sure what they trulywant, she helps them reconnect
with who they really are, getclear on what would actually
light them up, and design workthat aligns with their purpose
and their true nature.
Her approach blends a master'sin psychology, nlp, existential
(00:44):
coaching, a decade-long careerin HR and a lifelong obsession
with the human mind, plus herown lived experience of walking
away from a prestigious butstifling path to follow her true
calling.
We had a lengthy and deepconversation that was rich with
(01:07):
so much magic.
I've decided to separate ourconversation into three
different podcast episodes sothat you can take in the
richness and depth of each oneon your own time and then come
back for another level of depthwith each of these three podcast
episodes.
(01:28):
I will link each of them in theshow notes so that you can
continue to listen one afteranother as you choose.
In this first episode, we'retalking all about purpose and
meaning.
What's the difference betweenpurpose and passion, and what
are the things to consider aboutyour work if it's not feeling
(01:51):
purposeful right now.
And then, in the second of thethree episodes, we're talking
about what happens if you don'tactually follow your purpose.
We talk about maybe some of theexistential signs, and even
physical health signs, that canoccur when you're not actually
following your purpose, whenyou're not actually
(02:13):
understanding how you'redesigned or what optimal career
is right for you, and, if youignore those whispers, what that
can turn into over time,especially if you are a highly
sensitive or neurocomplex person.
And then, in the final episode,we get deep into talking about
(02:36):
reality.
We talk about the filters ofyour unconscious mind and how
they might be affecting howyou're seeing your level of
purpose, how you'reunderstanding meaning, how you
might be affecting how you'reseeing your level of purpose,
how you're understanding meaninghow you might be seeing the
options that are on the tableand what to consider so that you
can align yourself to your mostpurposeful work and feel deeply
(02:59):
satisfied while doing it.
So this is a little overview ofwhat to expect in these next
three episodes.
So let's get started with thefirst one now.
I hope you enjoy.
I'm so excited to have a chatwith you today.
Thank you for being on thepodcast.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Thank you, Michelle, for having me.
Yeah, my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
We've been having some really fun conversations
about the crisis of meaning andpurpose and authenticity and
inauthenticity and how it'simpacting things, especially
nowadays, and Anita has somereally amazing insights and
perspectives that I'm superexcited to hear more about and
(03:47):
have you share with me and mylisteners.
So I want to open this up byasking you you know this, the
crisis of meaning and purposeand inauthenticity.
What does that mean to you?
How would you?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
describe that.
Yeah, I think we live in theday and age when there's a lot
of that going on.
I feel like people, when theyreach a certain level of success
material success in their work,in their business or career
they start thinking about youknow, why am I doing all of this
?
What's the meaning of all this?
(04:22):
Do I want to keep doing this?
And I think this happensbecause when we satisfy our
material needs, then the spaceopens for us to think about
other needs that are more maybesubtle or emotional needs that
we haven't been paying that muchattention to all this time.
That's when it becomes obviousthat the work that we do perhaps
(04:46):
doesn't align fully with ourtrue nature, with who we want to
be, with who we are, with ourvalues.
Yeah, just like our true nature.
And this is when I think a lotof people hit that spot, when
they just lose a sense ofmeaning and purpose in their
work.
It can also happen because ofsome disillusionment, like over
(05:09):
time, you realize maybe thatyour job, the company you work
for, or the whole industry issomehow corrupt or unethical and
you just can't stand thatanymore and your value system
really starts shouting that thisjust doesn't sit right with you
.
Right, when we are younger,first of all, we don't really
(05:29):
always realize that it takes usa while to figure out how the
world works and we don't knowourselves that well.
And then, over time, as we gainthis knowledge, we start to
notice this discrepancy and itstarts to bother us.
And this is when, I think, alot of people hit that midlife
identity crisis.
And I'm specifically interestedin the work identity crisis,
(05:54):
not just the whole general life,the cliche point when you want
to just do something naughty buya convertible or something but
just like in your work life,when you reach that point when
nothing makes sense anymore, youdon't know who you are, you
don't know what you want and youjust feel a deep sense of
misalignment and meaninglessnessand you start questioning
(06:17):
everything.
Yeah, that's a very painfulpoint in a lot of successful
people's lives.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and my goodness, I
have so many questions.
First, actually, you know, justto backtrack, I'd love to know
if you care to share a littlebit of a summary of how you got
to where you are now with thework that you do.
What is the work that you do?
A little bit of a story aboutyou.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Oh yeah, thank you for asking that.
Yeah, I've been thinking, youknow, before our conversation,
like how to summarize thiswithout going into all the you
know details about what happenedto me.
But what I just described isessentially what happened to me.
I used to work in HR for abouta decade and I reached the point
when I was really successful onpaper.
(07:07):
I had a wonderful CV, I had agreat position, I had a really
good salary in a prestigiouscompany, but something in me
just felt empty and I juststopped believing that the work
I was doing was actually makingany meaningful difference.
Not that it wasn't making adifference in the eyes of others
, but that Not that it wasn'tmaking a difference in the eyes
of others but that kind ofdifference wasn't enough for me
(07:29):
anymore.
I just thought that I waswasting my time and my talents
and my potential doing thingsthat are kind of mundane or
trivial or don't have a longlasting value.
You know, like I bring somevalue and then it immediately
gets destroyed.
I hire people and then theyquit or they get laid off or
(07:51):
something like that.
So it just felt like I'mwasting my life and it was
unbearable To me.
That thought was unbearable, andI was never one of these people
who wanted to change the world.
I never really thought ofmyself as someone who needs to
do big things.
I didn't want to do big things.
I just wanted to do somethingmeaningful, even if it was on a
(08:14):
small scale.
And I couldn't find that in mywork.
And it wasn't about my company,because if I change my company,
if I move to a differentcompany, it would be the same
because it's the same type ofwork.
My main problem wasn't with theenvironment or with the setup of
my work.
It was really with the workitself, and so I needed to
(08:37):
reinvent my career.
I needed to find a newdirection, I needed to find a
new profession, and that's how Iended up doing what I do.
I was lucky enough to get ataste of coaching.
I got certified for a coach andI experienced firsthand the
power of coaching and I fell inlove with that.
(08:57):
I realized I have this reallypowerful gift and I thought it
would be a waste of my life if Ididn't try to create a career
out of it.
And because I felt sopassionately about this whole
topic of meaning and purpose atwork, or the lack of it, because
that's what happened to me.
I felt drawn to help otherpeople find that true calling or
(09:22):
a new calling.
It doesn't have to be that theprevious one was wrong, it's
just it could be that they justoutgrew it and now it's time for
a new identity to emerge, a newpath to unfold, and I felt
really, really drawn towardsdoing that and helping other
people go through the sameprocess that I went through, but
less painfully and more quicklythan I did.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Oh, my goodness, that's so beautiful.
Thank you, that sounds likethat would likely be very
meaningful for you.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, it is.
It's the reason why I wake upin the morning.
It's the reason why I can bearthe hardship of entrepreneurship
when you're just building yourbusiness and you don't know how
it's going to go.
And that gives me the strengthto keep on going, because I
believe in the importance ofthis work, that to me, that's
(10:15):
the incredible power of not justfinding your passion but
finding really purpose, becauseI feel like passion can't really
sustain you as much or as longas purpose true purpose can.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
So what would you say ?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
the difference between those two are Well,
passion is something that you'rereally interested in, something
that really excites you.
You lose yourself when you'redoing that activity.
You get into flow.
And not to say that it's bad tohave passion I mean, if you can
do what you're passionate about, you're probably going to have
a very exciting career.
(10:51):
But I feel like there's toomuch emphasis on that passion.
It's something you need to find.
I think it's also something youneed to cultivate, something
that kind of finds you.
A lot of people stumble upontheir passion.
It can't be really found in astandard way like I'm going to
find my passion now.
It kind of finds you.
It depends on your ability tokind of surrender yourself to
(11:15):
new activities and allowyourself to fall in love with
something, follow your interests.
I think a lot of people don'teven they can't really predict
that something is going tobecome their passion until
they've tried it.
So I think it's a matter of youknow, exploring things and
allowing yourself to fall inlove with something.
(11:36):
I don't think passion alone cansustain you.
If it's meaningless, if itdoesn't create an impact that
you think is important, then itcan just be a hobby.
We can be passionate about manythings and not have that, as
our profession, passion can alsobe exhausting, like if you're
(11:56):
really passionate about yourwork, that can mean being on an
emotional roller coaster.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So the extremes instead of finding a balance.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, it can be really intense and I think that
not every stage of life requiresyou to be passionate.
Sometimes you just maybe havethis period in life where you
don't want to give all ofyourself to your work, you don't
want it to consume you, andthere are periods when you do.
There are periods, especiallylike when we are younger we like
I think a lot of people likethat feeling.
(12:31):
I still like it.
I like to be consumed by mywork, but I can also imagine a
different time in my life whenyou know other things like
family will take priority.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, now what's the difference between passion and
purpose?
So you've given an overview ofpassion and how it can be
wonderful and it can also bedraining and it can be something
that you can get lost in andmaybe it's not the thing that's
going to really keep yougrounded and centered on an
(13:04):
ongoing basis.
So what would like purpose andmeaning and impact the other?
You know the other side of it.
How would you define ordescribe that?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I would say that meaning and purpose is almost
like the after effect.
It's what you experience whenyou do work that you consider
important.
Of course you can have overlap.
You can do passionate work thatyou deeply care about, the
impact of which is reallyimportant to you, and so you
have both passion and purpose.
(13:39):
But you can also have justpassion without purpose.
Like I'm really passionateabout drawing, but what's the
purpose of that?
I'm not making anybody's lifebetter because I'm not a pro.
I'm just doodling here on thepaper just for my own pleasure,
right?
You can also have purposewithout passion.
You can do meaningful work thatyou're just not excited about.
(14:00):
You know on an intellectuallevel that it creates an
important difference, but it'snot the activities that you do.
You're not passionate aboutthem.
Maybe you're passionate aboutthe cause, so you really deeply
believe in the cause of yourwork.
Maybe you work for an NGO orsomething, but all day long you
(14:22):
have to fill out spreadsheetsand do admin work, and so you
have a lot of purpose and youknow that ultimately, filling
out spreadsheets is going tolead to an outcome that you
truly value and find importantand that gives your life meaning
.
But that's not reallysustainable because you just
don't enjoy doing it right.
There's no passion for the work.
So, yeah, these are veryabstract concepts and there's a
(14:45):
lot of overlap between them andit's hard to draw a firm line.
This is the clean line wherepassion stops and purpose begins
.
I think they all kind of feedinto each other.
Yeah, but I just like todemystify these terms.
I like to think about thesewords and the language that we
use critically, because thelanguage defines how we
(15:08):
understand reality, how weunderstand ourselves, and so if
we keep talking about purpose,but what we actually mean is,
you know something else, orpassion, and we actually mean
purpose, you know, we ought toget confused.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
If you were talking to somebody who had purpose but
no passion, what would thoughtsmight you share with that person
?
They're working a purposefuljob, but they're not feeling
passionate about what they'redoing.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Well, the first thing that comes to mind is I would
look into what are they reallypassionate about?
Right?
Why is passion missing?
I wouldn't really jump intoadvice before.
I did like a deeper diagnosisof what's going on, because
sometimes people say things butdon't necessarily mean exactly
(15:59):
what they said.
So, for instance, likesometimes people say, oh, I lack
confidence.
And then when you dig deeperyou realize it's not confidence
that they lack, it's maybe thatyou know, they're a little bit
afraid, but they're actuallypretty confident.
It's just that I don, they're alittle bit afraid, but they're
actually pretty confident.
It's just that I don't know.
They use that word for somereason because it's available,
(16:20):
but that's not exactly what theymean.
So, you know, when spark isgone, like what does that really
mean?
Does it mean you're notinterested in the work anymore?
Does it mean that maybe you'rejust bored, maybe there's too
much repetitiveness, maybeyou're not challenged enough,
maybe some emotional need is notbeing met, maybe you crave
novelty, maybe you craveconnection with people and
(16:41):
you're not getting that.
Maybe you're stuck at home,you're doing some kind of work
that doesn't really excite you,but that's not a sign that you
have permanently lost passionfor your work and now you need
to find a different line of work.
Maybe it just means that youneed to kind of do some
adjustments, and I think a lotof people don't realize how much
(17:03):
space they have to makeadjustments at work.
Of course there are someworkplaces that are closed and
closed-minded and you can'treally diverge too much from
your role, but a lot of peoplenever even try, they never even
have that conversation and saylook, I really value working
here, I believe in this work,but it's just I've been feeling
(17:25):
stagnant lately, or I've beenfeeling kind of bored and
unchallenged or realizing youknow, what is it that I actually
need?
We are better at realizing whatwe don't want, what bothers us,
what hurts, what's off, but westruggle sometimes to well often
to articulate that in the formof what we want, and so we often
(17:49):
come with a complaint.
But there is no desire behindcomplaint, it's not expressed
right, and there is alwaysdesire behind complaint, but we
sometimes struggle to articulateit, and so we are just left
with this feeling like, oh, Idon't feel good at work, and
then we use the most availableword, which is oh, it's just, I
(18:11):
lost that spark.
There's no passion.
Passion is a very common word,it's very often used, so we
might grab that word.
It's just I lost that spark.
There's no passion.
Passion is a very common word,it's very often used, so we
might grab that word becauseit's available to us.
I think it's really important todig deep and ask what does
passion mean for you?
What is so important aboutpassion?
Because when you start definingthese terms, when you start
unraveling, unpacking thislanguage, you get to the bottom
(18:34):
of what's really going on, whatis actually wrong, and then I
think you're in a betterposition to give advice or
provide some guidance, beforeyou actually know what's
happening.
Saying that you lost passion,that could mean so many things.
Right, what is the particularflavor of that feeling?
Where is it coming from?
(18:56):
And then we can think about.
You know what would be a goodnext step.
But if we just take it at facevalue of lost passion, you know
that doesn't really give us muchto work with.
I love that.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Absolutely.
I mean, you're speaking tosomebody who's all about getting
to the root of things right andunderstanding what's right
what's really underneath thattopical symptom or whatever,
that feeling of feeling off.
And I love how you've mentionedlike which, what flavor I use
(19:33):
that type of terminology as wellin terms of like you know what
is the flavor of.
You know this particularsymptom for you, in terms of
that root, and I'm hearing thata piece of that puzzle is
understanding.
You know not only what youdon't want but what's important
to you.
What are your preferences, whatare your needs, how are you
(19:54):
designed?
Like you've mentioned, somepeople really need connection
with other people and if youdon't understand that about
yourself and maybe your job islacking that, then you might
feel like something's off andyou might not recognize that oh,
it's because I'm not connectingwith people.
And sometimes we just assume,like you've mentioned, that
(20:20):
maybe it's just that I've lostthat spark, but really what it
is is that your particular needand accommodating your design
are not being met.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know you're anaturopath, you're a doctor, and
you know you're a naturopath,you're a doctor, so you also
know how you know.
When a certain disease ordisorder becomes very popular in
the media, suddenly everybody'sdiagnosed with it or
self-diagnoses with it becauseit's available, right, and so we
tend to see the symptoms thateverybody talks about and we put
(20:48):
ourselves into those boxes.
But it takes a little bit ofyou know, asking questions,
curious questions and diggingdeeper to understand what's
really going on.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Absolutely, and I loved how you mentioned not
everybody thinks about maybeeven bringing this up and saying
like I think I'm missing thisand seeing how you can make
adjustments in the workplacewithout leaving, without
changing, to actually make surethat it does fulfill the needs
(21:20):
and your design and yourpassions, so that it can feel
both purposeful and passionate.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, yeah, I think, as I said, we're often more
aware of what we don't want.
But if you come to youremployer, like your boss or your
manager, whoever, and you say,oh, I don't like this, I don't
like that, you know, you don'twant to, nobody wants to sound
destructive or like negative,you know.
And so we, we keep that toourselves.
But that's because we don'treally know what's on the other
(21:51):
side of that.
What's on the other side ofcomplaint.
What desire is there?
Okay, I don't want this.
I'm sick and tired of this.
This is getting really annoying.
I can't stand this.
Okay, but what do I wantinstead?
Defining that part is really,really difficult.
I have a whole theory whythat's difficult.
(22:11):
I can share it if you want, butI think this is where most
people get stuck.
I personally get stuck there aswell, and I need to do some
deep inner work to articulatewhat it is that I desire.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, it's hard to see yourself right and to see
maybe even what's possible whenyou don't know what's possible.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, when you have all these stories in your head
about what's possible, what'spermitted, then you can't see
outside of the realm of what youthink is possible and what's
permitted, right, and so youdon't dare to desire things that
fall outside of that spectrumbecause you don't want to be
disappointed or it doesn't evenoccur to you that you could
(22:55):
desire that.
It's just too big for you rightnow, it's just too far away
from what you're used to, fromwhat feels normal or just
possible, and so I think a bigpart of the work that you and I
do is expanding people'scontainer in which they operate,
expanding the realm of what'spossible to allow that other
(23:16):
things are possible as well, andthat, to me, that is the true
transformation to start wantingdifferently, to allow yourself
to want things that fall outsideof the spectrum of what you
think is permitted to you orpossible for you.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Mm-hmm, I love that and you're totally right.
It can completely change aparadigm to see what's outside
of, maybe, what's been modeledto you, what you believe is
possible, what you've beentaught that you should want, and
sometimes, if we haven't beenoffered other examples or
(23:55):
possibilities, once they'reoffered to us and once we can
actually see them, it can changea whole lot, can't it?
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah, yeah, and I love that you bring up other
examples, because sometimes wejust lack social proof.
We might even have a vague ideaof what we want, but if you
don't know anybody who does whatyou're dreaming about, it's
hard to believe it's possible.
And so I think it's really,really worthy to get outside of
your circle, meet new people andfigure out, like, look at what
(24:26):
they do, meet people who do thethings that you dream about
doing, because they're going tobe.
They're going to give you thatcrucial social proof that it is
truly possible.
I'm not sure if I would be ableto do this work if I haven't
had the experience that I had,if I haven't met the people who
are coaches, the trainers in mycertification, who do this for a
(24:49):
living, if I haven'texperienced this powerful
experience, I'm not sure if Iwould believe that something
like that is possible for aperson like me.
Before that, of course, I knewabout coaching.
The concept wasn't new, but itwas just so vague and abstract
and so unknown.
Like how do you even begin?
Like, who do you talk?
(25:10):
Like what do you do?
What's the first step to take?
It's overwhelming right.
So I think that's a reallysmart thing that anybody can do.
Just get outside of your circle, expose yourself to people who
do different things, especiallypeople who do the thing that you
are considering doing for aliving.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Oh my gosh, I love that it makes me think of I
recently wrote a post about this.
Something that I learned when Iwas in naturopathic college is
there's a term that one of myprofessors used and that is
called exemplars.
So exemplars can be you know hewas using flower remedies as an
(25:51):
example of exemplars like anexample of balance and attuned
note for you to attune to, andhe also mentioned that exemplars
can be people right, holding anexample of what's possible and
what might be balanced and foryou so that you can see an
example to live to, kind of liketuning a tuning fork or using a
(26:15):
tuning fork to tune to.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, now I'm just remembering all these, like from
NLP, all these concepts ofanchors, symbols, metaphors, all
those are really powerful toolsto help us kind of envision or
embody the thing that we want tobecome.
I'm just looking at that littleBuddha behind you, right?
How can you look at Buddha andnot feel a sense of balance, or
at least be reminded of a senseof balance and enlightenment,
(26:42):
everything that Buddha standsfor?
So, yeah, just like we like tosurround ourselves with items
that represent something, it'sreally powerful to surround
ourselves with people whorepresent possibilities that we
strive for.
I have this little ridiculousitem here.
This is a gigantic how do youcall this in English?
(27:03):
The thing for when you hang theropes.
You know, when you put the rope, you hang the clothes.
I'm sorry, right, a clothespin,yeah, yeah, but it's a gigantic
one and it's yellow and it justreminds me of playfulness.
To me, that representsplayfulness, and just having it
on the table reminds me to takethings a little bit less
(27:24):
seriously.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
I love that that is such a good reminder.
I think that especially in oursociety, we don't connect enough
to playfulness.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
That's true, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
So this is where the first of the three episodes
finishes, because right afterthis comment, we ended up
switching topics and, as areminder, there are two more
episodes where we continue thisrich and beautiful conversation.
In the second of the threepodcast episodes, we talk about
(28:03):
what some of the signs andindications might be that maybe
there's something to change oradjust, or whether or not we're
actually aligned with ourpurpose, and that can include
existential symptoms, emotionalsymptoms, physical symptoms,
especially if you're a highlysensitive or neuro complex
(28:25):
person and what to start tothink about and pay attention to
in order to turn that situationaround for yourself.
And then, in the third podcastepisode, we're going to get into
all things reality in terms ofhow you're interpreting reality,
the lens through which you'relooking at things, and what all
(28:47):
of that means in terms of yourpurpose, work and finding peace
and happiness and satisfactionwith what it is that you're
doing.
You can find the links to theother two podcast episodes in
the show notes once they'republished, and you can find all
the information to learn moreabout Anita in the show notes.
(29:09):
I've linked her website and howyou can find her on social
media.
So I hope you enjoyed the firstof the three conversations with
Anita, and I hope you come backto listen to the rest and, as
always, thank you for being here.
Until next time, take care.
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Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
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