August 1, 2023 • 13 mins
We have a special mini-sode for you! Jess and Melissa continued their conversation once Ep 18 Jill Heiman left the studio to unpack and reflect on themes that came up during the interview. This debrief touches on questions around life's unpredictability, the timelines we set for ourselves, dreams and expectations, motherhood, aging, the beauty of resilience, and the struggle to live in the unknown
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is the Inner Rebel podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey listeners, Right after Jill left the recording
session, Melissa and I foundourselves in another deep and
intimate conversation, and so wedecided to press record again
and share the rest with you.
Here is our talk after ourconversation with Jill.
I think what I'm conscious ofthe hard part for me is that,
(00:37):
you know, I haven't met theperson yet.
It doesn't mean it has to bewith a person, but I would like
it to be.
I haven't met that person yetand I'm aware of the timeline in
my head of I don't want to rusha relationship.
I don't want to rush to be like, okay, great, Any year from now
we're going to start trying.
I don't want that.
I want to have time withwhoever it is, to get to know
them and be sure that that isthe person I would want to do
(00:59):
that with.
And that already pushes itforward by a while.
Like I don't know who it'sgoing to be.
I don't know how long it'sgoing to take it might not take
that much time, but I don't knowand I want to be really sure
that I'm doing it with the rightperson.
So I just feel conscious ofthat.
It's just an awareness that Ihave.
I just don't know where my bodyis going to be.
(01:20):
I just don't know.
There's so many unknowns thatare just built into it.
I'm not going to be the personthat says, well, this is never
going to happen for me.
I don't believe that at all.
But also, can I be at peacewith the fact that it may not
happen?
Can I be okay with that?
Can I be okay that so much ofmy life up to this point has not
actually turned out to beexactly how I envisioned it?
(01:41):
I mean, it's more expansive ina way than I ever thought it
could be right.
In another way it's even betterthan I could have envisioned it
.
But there are certain dreams inmy heart that I haven't been
able to fully let go of yet.
And it does cause pain and itdoes make it tricky to know how
to navigate it, and I certainlyam not one to settle.
But I can understand thetemptation that women have.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's so interesting too.
The biological clock is realfor everyone.
I have one kid and there wassomething weird that clicked
inside of me when I was 40,turned 40 this year, and I was
like, what if I end up wantingit and now I can't do it anymore
and I waited too long?
What if we do want it?
What if we end up wantinganother one and it's too late
and that we should have done it?
You know, the idea that thechoice can be taken away from
you is very scary.
(02:26):
Yeah, I think that's it For allmoms and every mom I know.
They grieve the aging processin the 40s.
Even if they feel complete,there's still a grieving process
of my body is done with thisphase or the ability to have
this choice, and there's a lotof grieving whether you never
have a kid, whether your path tomotherhood is unconventional,
(02:47):
whether you have one kid,whether you have two kids.
It's just something about beinga woman and transitioning out,
of being able to be childwearing, and it's very real from
so many women.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
But what was coming to me is what if you're going to
like meet a man with babies orsomething?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I mean maybe, who knows?
I'm open and also I've alwaysfelt like a mom.
There's so many parts to methat have been so clear to me
that the fact that they have notmanifested and that my life
took the turn that it did hasbeen very perplexing to me,
because I feel so naturallythat's what I'm meant to do.
I love kids so much.
(03:23):
I am just such a naturalnurturer.
I love family.
These are all things that areat the core of my being.
I'm a cancer.
I mean it's just at the core ofwho I am.
So maybe I was really not meantto do it with the person that I
married.
Clearly I wasn't.
And this is all happening forme so I can align with the
person I am meant to do it withor in the way I'm meant to do it
(03:44):
.
I'm open to that.
But I think there is some truth,or I guess where the
practicality or the realismcomes in is I have to look at
life how it is and not interpretit to mean all kinds of
different things.
What does that mean for me?
That doesn't mean it'll neverhappen, but can I be at peace
with every possibility?
(04:06):
Can I be so comfortable in theunknown and so comfortable in
that uncertainty, so surrender,and so trusting that every
version of it is going to beokay.
I can hold the vision for whatI really, really want.
But no and maybe this is theletting go piece she was talking
about but no, also that I willbe okay no matter what, no
(04:28):
matter what happens, no matterwhat comes my way.
I have the capacity to meetthat moment and make the best of
it.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, I think that's it.
You will get to okay, likewhat's happened in your marriage
.
Obviously you couldn't havepredicted or wanted to happen,
but you're learning that youwill be okay.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, this lesson came directly for me because I
was a person who really put somuch on my dreams in a way that
I truly felt, if it doesn'thappen the way that I think it's
supposed to happen, I will notbe okay, Like I'd rather die.
I was that person, and not justwith, not really around family.
(05:10):
That was always like I wantedit, but I also was in a
relationship and assumed thatthat was going to happen at some
point.
But around other aspects of mylife, you know, in the first
conversation we had, we talkedabout how Tracy worded the
dismantling, everything thatfell away, all of these identity
pieces were all things that Ithought if they fall away, I
will not survive.
And so here I am Surviving.
(05:33):
I think it has made me a littlebit nervous to get too attached
you know, a little bit nervousto get too overly identified
with it going one way and I justtry very hard to be present and
open.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And I think there's a difference of knowing I'll be
okay no matter what andpreparing myself for every
possible outcome, you know,because you could really easily
get into doomsday and I don'tknow that we can proactively be
okay with every option.
You know, I think there is athere's a level of surrender and
acceptance that happens whenyou go through it.
(06:11):
But I just teeter on preparingfor the worst.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I think what we were talking about earlier in the
conversation about going intothe darkness and meeting these
different parts of yourself andhaving compassion and love and
being neutral in all of it, notinterpreting anything through
the lens of good or bad, rightthat if you feel whole and solid
in yourself, then you know youhave the capacity to meet
(06:35):
whatever comes and be okay.
That's all.
I mean that I know that I amresilient and I have trusted
myself and that I have thecapacity at this point, after
living through everything I'velived through, that no matter
what version of events happens,I can't predict it.
It's not about predicting allthe different scenarios, it's
(06:57):
just I have literally no ideawhat's going to happen.
I just don't know.
None of us do.
That's life.
None of us know, even when wethink we have all these secure
measures in place, none of ushave a clue what's actually
going to happen.
So can we all feel okay andstrong and solid in ourselves,
whole in ourselves, to know, nomatter what comes down the road,
(07:21):
that we are going to be okayand know how to meet that moment
and survive it and maybe eventhrive?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
through it.
Drop my actual mic, drop myactual mic.
Drop, yeah, but that's thewhole point, right, that's the
whole point and that wasbasically the essence of Jill's
conversation.
Right, the safety's on theinside, the safety's not on the
outside, and I always talk aboutbeing the eye of the storm,
like the storm will go on, right, life will be unpredictable.
(07:49):
Things will happen.
I mean, it's recently.
This has not happened in myimmediate circle, but my best
friend from college, herhusband's best, best, best, best
, best friend, died ofesophageal cancer at 35.
I don't know, less than a yearafter getting married they went
to residency together as adoctor.
He was a professional Iron manathlete, competing as of the
(08:11):
summer diagnosis to death likesix months.
My other dear friend, myhusband's best friend's wife,
her very best friend fromcollege, died at 40 something to
young kids, eight-year battleof cancer.
Like in the same week they bothdied.
And those are all those momentsthat remind you.
None of this is guaranteed,none of this is certain.
I don't want to live in fear ofthat, but I also I'm not gonna
(08:33):
wait to live because of somemade-up timeline that will.
We have to do all these certainthings first before we Can
retire and then live our lives.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
It's like it should, in a sense, give us more freedom
and more permission.
Right, because if we areputting all of these measures in
place and you know we're soAttached to this idea of safety
and security we don't want toleave our comfort zones because
we're afraid of what mighthappen.
But it's like you said, you,the jobs that you've been having
, these secure jobs that happento to my ex-two.
(09:03):
We'd be at a desk job and thewhole company would go down, and
then when he actually found hispassion and this very
Unreliable industry, he thrivedand it went really well for him.
The fact that we cannot controlany of it means to me that you
might as well go and do thething you really want to do and
hope for the best, because evenif you don't do it, if you deny
yourself your truth, yourpassion, the thing you really
(09:26):
want to go out and do somethingelse might come along right and
Blow it all up too.
So you might as well do thething you really want to do.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, that's like I know I love it.
I mean, obviously I love it.
That's why I hope peopleactualize their visions for a
living, because if there's evena glimmer of an idea in your
body, I'm like, yeah, let'sbring it out.
If there's a glimmer ofanything in your body, yeah, and
(09:57):
you're at least willing to sayit to me, I'm like we're gonna
do this.
Okay, I know, you know that,right, we're not fucking around,
we're not waiting.
I get that there's timing and Iget that there's reality.
But also, so much of it is achoice, it's a decision.
There's no perfect time in lifeto decide to, in a sense, flip
your life upside down on purpose.
There's never a great time forthat right, but there's a great
(10:20):
time to decide that you're nolonger going to settle, that
you're no longer gonna shovethat dream, that voice, down
inside of you.
I'm equally passionate as youare, but it is.
It's like I.
I mean I literally.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
That's why I say it's my favorite conversation when
somebody says to me I have anidea, I have this vision, I have
this thing that I've beenthinking about, and I'm like,
okay, you know, and Jill alsosaid, which I really appreciate
that we also don't know that thejourney itself Might be exactly
the point, that maybe it is thepoint yeah, it is the point,
(11:01):
but but it is the point.
People don't want to startsomething until they know what
the results are gonna be, andthat's just not life period but
we don't know that that visionis taking us down a path that is
going to help us meet ourselves, and it doesn't actually matter
what happens on the other endof it.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
And you know, it's interesting because I didn't
know that.
I have a quote, and I think itwas in this talk that I did my
journey out of corporate endedup being a journey into myself,
and I had no idea that that wasthe journey I was on, nor did I
actually realize that that wasthe journey I was guiding people
on when I started to do mymastermind and I was like, oh,
(11:42):
this is nothing.
I mean.
The thing is that the vehicle,the place to put your desires
and your work, the point of allof this is the becoming yeah,
it's you, it's the CEO schoolfor your life, of you learning
to be your sovereign, offendedself and make choices from a
totally different place thanyou've been making them.
(12:04):
Yeah, that's the point.
You.
Building a widget has never beenthe point.
Right, it's not, but we thinkthat it is.
That's why I, even for a longtime, I was like do I even call
myself a business coach?
But it's the thing that getsthe person to say yes to going
on a different kind of a journey.
They don't know what they'researching for, but they will
(12:24):
think that they're searching,which I was the same way, I
think I'm searching for thisthing, but what I'm actually
getting is this, and this isexactly what I needed.
Yeah, it's the surprising thingthat you didn't know you needed
.
Yeah, well, was you?
It's you.
You're the thing you didn'tknow you needed.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
You are the thing you didn't know you needed.
I'm glad we had this talk.
Hey there, rebels.
If you enjoyed this podcast, wewould love your support in a
few quick ways.
You could like follow orsubscribe on your preferred
(13:01):
platform to help others discoverus too.
You could also leave us areview.
We also have a Facebook groupand you can find us at
facebookcom.
You can also find us on oursocial media page, where support
means everything to us, and wecan't wait to continue this
journey together.
This is the Inner Rebel podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey listeners, Right after Jill left the recording
session, Melissa and I foundourselves in another deep and
intimate conversation, and so wedecided to press record again
and share the rest with you.
Here is our talk after ourconversation with Jill.
I think what I'm conscious ofthe hard part for me is that,
(00:37):
you know, I haven't met theperson yet.
It doesn't mean it has to bewith a person, but I would like
it to be.
I haven't met that person yetand I'm aware of the timeline in
my head of I don't want to rusha relationship.
I don't want to rush to be like, okay, great, Any year from now
we're going to start trying.
I don't want that.
I want to have time withwhoever it is, to get to know
them and be sure that that isthe person I would want to do
(00:59):
that with.
And that already pushes itforward by a while.
Like I don't know who it'sgoing to be.
I don't know how long it'sgoing to take it might not take
that much time, but I don't knowand I want to be really sure
that I'm doing it with the rightperson.
So I just feel conscious ofthat.
It's just an awareness that Ihave.
I just don't know where my bodyis going to be.
(01:20):
I just don't know.
There's so many unknowns thatare just built into it.
I'm not going to be the personthat says, well, this is never
going to happen for me.
I don't believe that at all.
But also, can I be at peacewith the fact that it may not
happen?
Can I be okay with that?
Can I be okay that so much ofmy life up to this point has not
actually turned out to beexactly how I envisioned it?
(01:41):
I mean, it's more expansive ina way than I ever thought it
could be right.
In another way it's even betterthan I could have envisioned it
.
But there are certain dreams inmy heart that I haven't been
able to fully let go of yet.
And it does cause pain and itdoes make it tricky to know how
to navigate it, and I certainlyam not one to settle.
But I can understand thetemptation that women have.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's so interesting too.
The biological clock is realfor everyone.
I have one kid and there wassomething weird that clicked
inside of me when I was 40,turned 40 this year, and I was
like, what if I end up wantingit and now I can't do it anymore
and I waited too long?
What if we do want it?
What if we end up wantinganother one and it's too late
and that we should have done it?
You know, the idea that thechoice can be taken away from
you is very scary.
(02:26):
Yeah, I think that's it For allmoms and every mom I know.
They grieve the aging processin the 40s.
Even if they feel complete,there's still a grieving process
of my body is done with thisphase or the ability to have
this choice, and there's a lotof grieving whether you never
have a kid, whether your path tomotherhood is unconventional,
(02:47):
whether you have one kid,whether you have two kids.
It's just something about beinga woman and transitioning out,
of being able to be childwearing, and it's very real from
so many women.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
But what was coming to me is what if you're going to
like meet a man with babies orsomething?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I mean maybe, who knows?
I'm open and also I've alwaysfelt like a mom.
There's so many parts to methat have been so clear to me
that the fact that they have notmanifested and that my life
took the turn that it did hasbeen very perplexing to me,
because I feel so naturallythat's what I'm meant to do.
I love kids so much.
(03:23):
I am just such a naturalnurturer.
I love family.
These are all things that areat the core of my being.
I'm a cancer.
I mean it's just at the core ofwho I am.
So maybe I was really not meantto do it with the person that I
married.
Clearly I wasn't.
And this is all happening forme so I can align with the
person I am meant to do it withor in the way I'm meant to do it
(03:44):
.
I'm open to that.
But I think there is some truth,or I guess where the
practicality or the realismcomes in is I have to look at
life how it is and not interpretit to mean all kinds of
different things.
What does that mean for me?
That doesn't mean it'll neverhappen, but can I be at peace
with every possibility?
(04:06):
Can I be so comfortable in theunknown and so comfortable in
that uncertainty, so surrender,and so trusting that every
version of it is going to beokay.
I can hold the vision for whatI really, really want.
But no and maybe this is theletting go piece she was talking
about but no, also that I willbe okay no matter what, no
(04:28):
matter what happens, no matterwhat comes my way.
I have the capacity to meetthat moment and make the best of
it.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, I think that's it.
You will get to okay, likewhat's happened in your marriage
.
Obviously you couldn't havepredicted or wanted to happen,
but you're learning that youwill be okay.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, this lesson came directly for me because I
was a person who really put somuch on my dreams in a way that
I truly felt, if it doesn'thappen the way that I think it's
supposed to happen, I will notbe okay, Like I'd rather die.
I was that person, and not justwith, not really around family.
(05:10):
That was always like I wantedit, but I also was in a
relationship and assumed thatthat was going to happen at some
point.
But around other aspects of mylife, you know, in the first
conversation we had, we talkedabout how Tracy worded the
dismantling, everything thatfell away, all of these identity
pieces were all things that Ithought if they fall away, I
will not survive.
And so here I am Surviving.
(05:33):
I think it has made me a littlebit nervous to get too attached
you know, a little bit nervousto get too overly identified
with it going one way and I justtry very hard to be present and
open.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And I think there's a difference of knowing I'll be
okay no matter what andpreparing myself for every
possible outcome, you know,because you could really easily
get into doomsday and I don'tknow that we can proactively be
okay with every option.
You know, I think there is athere's a level of surrender and
acceptance that happens whenyou go through it.
(06:11):
But I just teeter on preparingfor the worst.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I think what we were talking about earlier in the
conversation about going intothe darkness and meeting these
different parts of yourself andhaving compassion and love and
being neutral in all of it, notinterpreting anything through
the lens of good or bad, rightthat if you feel whole and solid
in yourself, then you know youhave the capacity to meet
(06:35):
whatever comes and be okay.
That's all.
I mean that I know that I amresilient and I have trusted
myself and that I have thecapacity at this point, after
living through everything I'velived through, that no matter
what version of events happens,I can't predict it.
It's not about predicting allthe different scenarios, it's
(06:57):
just I have literally no ideawhat's going to happen.
I just don't know.
None of us do.
That's life.
None of us know, even when wethink we have all these secure
measures in place, none of ushave a clue what's actually
going to happen.
So can we all feel okay andstrong and solid in ourselves,
whole in ourselves, to know, nomatter what comes down the road,
(07:21):
that we are going to be okayand know how to meet that moment
and survive it and maybe eventhrive?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
through it.
Drop my actual mic, drop myactual mic.
Drop, yeah, but that's thewhole point, right, that's the
whole point and that wasbasically the essence of Jill's
conversation.
Right, the safety's on theinside, the safety's not on the
outside, and I always talk aboutbeing the eye of the storm,
like the storm will go on, right, life will be unpredictable.
(07:49):
Things will happen.
I mean, it's recently.
This has not happened in myimmediate circle, but my best
friend from college, herhusband's best, best, best, best
, best friend, died ofesophageal cancer at 35.
I don't know, less than a yearafter getting married they went
to residency together as adoctor.
He was a professional Iron manathlete, competing as of the
(08:11):
summer diagnosis to death likesix months.
My other dear friend, myhusband's best friend's wife,
her very best friend fromcollege, died at 40 something to
young kids, eight-year battleof cancer.
Like in the same week they bothdied.
And those are all those momentsthat remind you.
None of this is guaranteed,none of this is certain.
I don't want to live in fear ofthat, but I also I'm not gonna
(08:33):
wait to live because of somemade-up timeline that will.
We have to do all these certainthings first before we Can
retire and then live our lives.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
It's like it should, in a sense, give us more freedom
and more permission.
Right, because if we areputting all of these measures in
place and you know we're soAttached to this idea of safety
and security we don't want toleave our comfort zones because
we're afraid of what mighthappen.
But it's like you said, you,the jobs that you've been having
, these secure jobs that happento to my ex-two.
(09:03):
We'd be at a desk job and thewhole company would go down, and
then when he actually found hispassion and this very
Unreliable industry, he thrivedand it went really well for him.
The fact that we cannot controlany of it means to me that you
might as well go and do thething you really want to do and
hope for the best, because evenif you don't do it, if you deny
yourself your truth, yourpassion, the thing you really
(09:26):
want to go out and do somethingelse might come along right and
Blow it all up too.
So you might as well do thething you really want to do.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, that's like I know I love it.
I mean, obviously I love it.
That's why I hope peopleactualize their visions for a
living, because if there's evena glimmer of an idea in your
body, I'm like, yeah, let'sbring it out.
If there's a glimmer ofanything in your body, yeah, and
(09:57):
you're at least willing to sayit to me, I'm like we're gonna
do this.
Okay, I know, you know that,right, we're not fucking around,
we're not waiting.
I get that there's timing and Iget that there's reality.
But also, so much of it is achoice, it's a decision.
There's no perfect time in lifeto decide to, in a sense, flip
your life upside down on purpose.
There's never a great time forthat right, but there's a great
(10:20):
time to decide that you're nolonger going to settle, that
you're no longer gonna shovethat dream, that voice, down
inside of you.
I'm equally passionate as youare, but it is.
It's like I.
I mean I literally.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
That's why I say it's my favorite conversation when
somebody says to me I have anidea, I have this vision, I have
this thing that I've beenthinking about, and I'm like,
okay, you know, and Jill alsosaid, which I really appreciate
that we also don't know that thejourney itself Might be exactly
the point, that maybe it is thepoint yeah, it is the point,
(11:01):
but but it is the point.
People don't want to startsomething until they know what
the results are gonna be, andthat's just not life period but
we don't know that that visionis taking us down a path that is
going to help us meet ourselves, and it doesn't actually matter
what happens on the other endof it.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
And you know, it's interesting because I didn't
know that.
I have a quote, and I think itwas in this talk that I did my
journey out of corporate endedup being a journey into myself,
and I had no idea that that wasthe journey I was on, nor did I
actually realize that that wasthe journey I was guiding people
on when I started to do mymastermind and I was like, oh,
(11:42):
this is nothing.
I mean.
The thing is that the vehicle,the place to put your desires
and your work, the point of allof this is the becoming yeah,
it's you, it's the CEO schoolfor your life, of you learning
to be your sovereign, offendedself and make choices from a
totally different place thanyou've been making them.
(12:04):
Yeah, that's the point.
You.
Building a widget has never beenthe point.
Right, it's not, but we thinkthat it is.
That's why I, even for a longtime, I was like do I even call
myself a business coach?
But it's the thing that getsthe person to say yes to going
on a different kind of a journey.
They don't know what they'researching for, but they will
(12:24):
think that they're searching,which I was the same way, I
think I'm searching for thisthing, but what I'm actually
getting is this, and this isexactly what I needed.
Yeah, it's the surprising thingthat you didn't know you needed
.
Yeah, well, was you?
It's you.
You're the thing you didn'tknow you needed.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
You are the thing you didn't know you needed.
I'm glad we had this talk.
Hey there, rebels.
If you enjoyed this podcast, wewould love your support in a
few quick ways.
You could like follow orsubscribe on your preferred
(13:01):
platform to help others discoverus too.
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