Leading isn't just about guiding others; it's also about steering our own lives, driven by purpose and passion. In this captivating episode, we have the pleasure of sitting down with the extraordinary Douglas Scherer -- workshop facilitator, keynote speaker, and the bestselling author of F.O.R.G.E.D: Six Practices of Great Leaders in Volatile Times. With his unique blend of mindfulness and leadership expertise, Douglas helps us explore the symbiotic relationship between rebellion and leadership -- two forces that seem to be intrinsically intertwined.
Both leaders and rebels require qualities of courage, resilience, a willingness to defy expectations, think outside the box, and challenge the status quo. This conversation is packed with mind-expanding ideas on how to nurture these qualities in ourselves, even when we battle imposter syndrome and self-doubt. From trusting our intuition to embracing discomfort, Douglas shares valuable insights on how leaders think and act that are applicable to us rebels who want to forge our own paths, honor authentic visions, and create meaningful change in the world.
Our conversation with Douglas explores the transformative power of discomfort as a catalyst for growth, how to lean into uncertainty, rewrite your "personal playbook", as well as how to challenge the mental habits and behaviors that keep us stuck in order to bring change and transformation to our own lives and those around us. We also learn about the role of self-compassion in unleashing your creativity, what it means to cultivate a "growth mindset", how to stay grounded and centered amidst chaos, the vast potential of nothingness -- and so much more. This episode will inspire you to take up more space, dance outside the edges of your comfort zone, and lean a little deeper into the messy and grey areas of life.
Key Topics Covered:
- The intertwining of rebellion and leadership
- Embracing discomfort as a catalyst for personal growth and creativity.
- Shifting from rigid mental patterns to exploration of new possibilities.
- Cultivating self-compassion for fostering innovation
- Embracing uncertainty
- Techniques for challenging ingrained thought patterns.
- Nurturing a growth mindset
- Leaning into discomfort
- Resilience
- Strategies for grounding yourself amidst chaos
- Pushing societal boundaries, embracing self-discovery, and expanding your comfort zone
If you loved today’s episode, please leave a review and share your favorite takeaways by screenshotting this episode and tagging us on Instagram! We also have a free monthly community call on the first Wednesday of every month, join here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica (00:00):
If you enjoy this episode, we would love it if you
would leave us a review, giveus a follow or a like and share
it with your friends.
Thanks, rebels.
Melissa (00:11):
To even question what you've been told is true is
incredibly courageous.
It doesn't always feel likecourage.
What looks like courage toother people, for me it feels
like survival.
This is our personal medicine.
Douglas (00:24):
If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion,
by integrity, then I really dothink that I know who I am.
Melissa (00:30):
There is a piece that is indescribable when you're
being who you are and you'reliving your purpose Not going to
come to the end of my life andbe like I didn't live the life I
was meant to live- Can I be socomfortable in the unknown and
so comfortable in thatuncertainty that every version
of it is going to be okay?
This is the Inner Rebel podcast.
Jessica (00:58):
Welcome, rebels.
I am so excited to be sittinghere with Melissa and Douglas
Sherer.
We're so happy to have you onthe show, douglas.
We met in December and I kindof love how the universe works.
Something has just brought usback together again in the sort
of synchronistic way, so Ireally feel like we're meant to
be having this conversationtoday.
(01:18):
I'm excited to dive into allthe questions I have about your
awesome book.
You have over a decade ofexperience in leadership
development a keynote speaker,workshop facilitator, coach and
retreat leader.
Your driving force is adeep-seated desire to help
people thrive, both personallyand professionally, fostering a
culture of trust, transparencyand collaboration and creating a
(01:40):
safe space for exploration andgrowth, which I love.
You also have a background inmindfulness and leadership, so
you have this really uniqueblend of expertise.
You have a very holisticapproach to your work.
Your new book, forge, wasranked a number one new release
and number one bestseller onAmazoncom.
Douglas (01:59):
Thanks for that lovely introduction.
I'll just Melissa, you putsomething in one of your
LinkedIn things which is you'rededicated to taking up space.
That has been stuck in my brainsince I saw that because, as an
introvert, my whole world islike, okay, I don't want to take
up space.
That whole thing is like that'smy mantra now I'm dedicated to
(02:19):
taking up space.
Melissa (02:21):
What does that look like for you?
What's that?
Because that looks different,obviously, for me and for you.
What does that expansivenesslook like to you?
Douglas (02:29):
Yeah, well, it looks like a couple things.
My body's recovering from twomajor surgeries, one of them
opening up my spine.
This idea of taking up space asI'm going through physical
therapy and learning how to walkagain and all those kinds of
things is really a veryexpansive opening, fear reducing
(02:50):
mindset and feeling like, hey,I belong in this world, like
this body belongs in this world,this mindset belongs in this
world, and even if I feel shyabout it, if I'm dedicated to
taking up space, I could stillbe shy, I could still whatever
that feels like.
I mean, part of it is likelearning to stand up straight
(03:11):
and bring my shoulders back,which is like my whole body is
like physically trying to pullme down.
My lungs open up.
The boundaries are beyond thebody.
The energy boundaries gowherever they go.
I mean Reiki healers will workwith you from a completely
different continent.
So all of that makes it veryconnected and very expansive and
I just love that statement thatyou made.
Melissa (03:34):
And I love that you talked about like there's the
physical body that's right herethat takes up actual space, and
then there's like the energeticbody, or whatever you want to
call the energy field that takesup space.
And it's not about like takingup space isn't about being the
loudest person in the room.
I think there's a misconceptionof like I got to be out there
(03:55):
and commanding and like maybeeven annoying to people.
It's not about the biggestpersonality in the room.
You said it so perfectly.
It's about like a belonging andlike I'm worthy of my body, I'm
worthy of my voice, I'm worthyof my experience of the world,
I'm worthy of getting support,asking for help.
(04:18):
My needs get to matter right.
So it's really like a claimingof self, in a way, and I think
that distinction is reallyimportant because it's not an
expectation that everyone needsto get loud all of a sudden.
Douglas (04:31):
Right, and it could even be.
I mean, as an intro.
It's like an internal thing,rather than I'm going to be
pushing myself in people's faces.
It's more like I can be evenbigger than people think I am,
bigger than I think I am.
You know, it can just be.
I'm here, you know I'm in thisworld.
Melissa (04:47):
So it was beautiful.
That line I have it like righthere.
I love that you brought that up.
Jessica (04:53):
We like to ask everyone who shows up here because you
have all these amazing,wonderful accomplishments, but
we're interested also in how yousee yourself and how that may
be different from who youthought you were supposed to be,
what you may have thoughtsociety would have expected you
to be.
You talk about rewriting theplaybook and I'm interested in
(05:14):
how you feel you have personallyrewritten your playbook in your
own life.
Douglas (05:22):
Wow, it's hard to know where to start.
I don't know if I can hold itdown to one thing.
I'm very passionate aboutbringing this transformative
experience, inspirationalexperience, liberating
experience to workers, toleaders and really to anybody.
They don't have to be at work.
Also, parents, I should say.
I'm actually just startingresearch on a book for parents.
There's so many kids that haveemotional challenges and so the
(05:45):
next thing is kind of bring thisexperience and this kind of
writing to help parents helpthemselves.
So my passion is aboutresearching and helping through
the research and the writing andthe consulting and the
workshops and the keynotes.
But I think society wanted meto be an engineer and we'll just
say that there were severalthings that weren't going to
(06:06):
allow that to happen.
I mean, I can't read aschematic, at least one as of
1975.
Jessica (06:12):
And I don't even know what that is.
Douglas (06:14):
But I was studying music.
So I have a Bachelor of FineArts in Music and I started
looking into both world musicand kind of like Renaissance,
medieval, Baroque kind of stuffand that oddly led me into
getting a side gig of working inmusic libraries as a music
librarian.
So I never thought I was goingto be into technology, but it
was right about that time thattechnology was coming into
(06:36):
libraries online card catalogsand things like that and so I
wound up moving in thatdirection and I never thought I
would be like a technologyleader.
In fact I kind of reallydisliked technology.
I remember seeing the firstApple Computer and going like
I'm never having that in myhouse.
That has never entered my world.
My beginning is more about artand music and creativity, but I
also think there's a lot offolks in that, a lot of folks
(06:59):
that came from music that wentinto technology, Because for
some reason the thought processis somehow the same.
It seems kind of weird, but theearly days I was kind of into
this mindset of some otherpeople which is like writing
computer code there's like apoetry to it, it's a language in
itself.
So I never thought I'd see thatand then that kind of led me
into.
In the 90s I had by a kind ofboutique consulting firm and I
(07:20):
think it's because of thatcreativity, that openness, I
know how things get done in thetech world.
I kept getting put more andmore in front of executives.
Melissa (07:29):
And so.
Douglas (07:29):
I never thought I was going to be there.
So when I was studying earlymusic, I never thought that was
going to lead me to sitting withexecutives and helping them
open and transform.
But that's where.
Jessica (07:38):
I am now In a way, as you talk, I'm like, oh, you're
like this bridge.
You're this bridge betweencreativity, imagination and then
having this sort of technicalprocess, helping people link who
they are and what their purposeis and who they're really
wanting to be in the world, buthaving to work with sort of the
confines of the system thatthey're within, if that makes
(08:01):
sense, Finding a way to findharmony within, that is that
making any sense.
Douglas (08:05):
It's just interesting you put it that way, because a
lot of the work I do and thetalks I do try to do, that exact
bridge is try to say here's whythis is important.
I can see it from both sidesbecause, having been a
technology a long time andknowing the teaching that I do
at Columbia is a lot about thisto my master students Teaching
(08:26):
them technology in a way thatleaders can use it to then
create a better dialogue andunderstanding and alignment with
what needs to get done.
The bridge is really like whatdoes it mean to somebody?
How are they going to use it?
Why are they going to use it?
Oftentimes, from a personallevel, it's like what does this
(08:48):
mean to me With the folks I help?
That's the transformationprocess.
What does it really mean to you?
What are you experiencing withthis?
Jessica (08:55):
I'm curious in your own journey of rewriting your
personal playbook, what havebeen some specific limiting
beliefs or habitual beliefs thatyou have had to work on and
overcome in order to be more ofa leader yourself or more
authentic in your life?
Douglas (09:13):
I would say one of the key things I'm battling is
imposter syndrome.
I know a lot of people aregoing through this now.
The thing there is just neverfeeling like I know enough,
you'll never know enough.
You'll just never know enough.
Melissa (09:25):
You know what you know.
Douglas (09:27):
Not that you shouldn't continue to learn, but how much
do you need to know to feelcomfortable?
That's my fascination with theintuition piece.
They say that you write whatyou want to know.
In some ways I wasinvestigating what I want to
know.
Coming to terms with being ableto speak to someone like you on
a podcast, being able torespond to these kinds of
(09:48):
questions without secondguessing, without filtering
everything before it comes out.
That has always been achallenge for me and continues
to be.
But I think that's one of thethings where I'm really changing
the playbook.
And what Melissa had said abouttaking up space, that whole
mindset, is like a currenttransformation for me.
(10:08):
I think that's where I'm moreand more headed.
To me, that's a statement ofembodiment.
The intuition thing is anembodiment thing too.
All these things are aboutfinding your place in the world,
where we're existing, in thesebodies.
I think that's the playbook.
Change for me is to become moreembodied, become more grounded
(10:28):
and to be less concerned withworrying about everything.
I say that the words have to beperfect or the thought can't be
corrected.
Jessica (10:35):
I deeply responded to your book.
This book is about the new waveof leadership.
Because I come from a totallydifferent world and different
background than both of you do.
I responded because I thinkyou're speaking to things that
actually transcend the workenvironment.
(10:58):
You're speaking to qualitiesthat, as I was reading, I'm like
this is just really good lifeadvice for anyone.
Also, here we are on thispodcast.
The title is Interreble andwe're talking about what it
takes to forge your own path inthe world.
Everything that you write aboutto me is applicable to waking
(11:20):
up every day as a human beingand setting out on your own
course in terms of followingyour intuition, learning boxes,
self-trust, in terms ofcompassion.
I was saying to Melissa I senther a little voice memo and I'm
like I feel like leadership andbeing a rebel is sort of
synonymous in some way, becauseto show up as a rebel in the
(11:42):
world means that you are doingsomething that's never been done
before and setting an example.
Douglas (11:48):
Right, I'm so glad you picked up on that and that
you're bringing that up.
The more I wrote the book, themore I saw what you did and it
wasn't.
My initial intent is that theseare things that are applicable
to just making decisions in reallife.
You don't have to be a leader.
What you're leading is your ownlife.
What you're bringing forward isyour own purpose.
As you come up to challenges inlife, you enter the analogies
(12:14):
of the forge.
It's this high pressure.
Maybe you don't know everythingthat's going on.
In fact, we probably don't havethe answers to most of the
questions that are coming up inlife and we have to find a way
to work with them.
Jessica (12:26):
When I break down these principles that you talk
through for forge leadership youhave favor compassion only,
unexpected recast ideas, go withintuition, employ action
communications and drivecommunity bonds.
I really love the link that youmake between compassion and
innovation because it was aperspective shift for me and I'm
(12:47):
wondering if you can speak moreto that relationship in terms
of how does a negative or unsafeexternal environment impact our
ability to think creatively andtake risks?
Because it also made me thinkabout our internal environment,
our self-talk, ourself-criticism and self-judgment
, and how huge a roleself-compassion has in showing
(13:10):
up authentically in all thesedifferent realms in our lives.
How can we also create asupportive internal environment
that encourages self-expressionand creativity?
Douglas (13:18):
We start with self-compassion, because that's
core and you think, oh,leadership, I'm leading everyone
else right.
But you can also burn out.
You can also give too much.
You can worry so much aboutwhat's going to happen that
you're now in paralysis and youcan't really think, you can't
move forward.
The self-compassion reallyallows you to settle and perhaps
(13:42):
listeners may want to even tryjust like feeling their feet on
the floor, whether they'restanding or sitting, or if
they're laying down, they canfeel their back on the floor and
just feeling grounded for amoment, like really feel the
connection between your wholefoot and the floor.
And then moving into Chi Gug alittle bit, feeling and
imagining like a golden lightcoming down out of your feet,
(14:05):
like three feet, six feet, justall the way down, and that
taking just like a deep breath,and that alone can be very
grounding.
Peace and ease is made inlittle moments, at a time, and
that little moment, just feelingyour feet on the floor,
situates you instead of in thehead, instead of just oh, what
(14:25):
about this, what about that,what about this, what about that
?
All of a sudden, the whole body, the mind, the heart, the
spirit, everything is nowanchored, if we're able to do
that even once an hour.
I mean, how long did that take?
I mean, I just see the clock,but I think that was a minute
and a half right If you were totake three minutes an hour doing
that, especially if you'reworking on the computer all day.
I mean, big data is now comingat you.
(14:45):
There's messages flying andsince the pandemic started
there's been an increase between2020 through the end of 2022.
The number of double bookmeetings has increased by 46%,
so you can't even focus on ameeting.
I know I have like frequentlythree meetings at a time and
chats coming in and emailsflying around.
(15:06):
When we take that breath, it'smoving into the parasympathetic
nervous system.
You're moving out of the flightfreeze and into the regulation
of that and I think that we'removing as a leadership group and
as a world.
I think we're trying to movemore into this regulated thing,
because politics and war andfamine and climate change I mean
(15:26):
there's enough to worry about.
We need to take that time forourselves to make sure we can
exist within that realm of chaos, and grounding yourself can
help do that and that's adaptiveself-compassion Just feeling
your feet on the floor.
You can now be centered in thatto try to make the best
decision you can, even given notenough information.
Melissa (15:48):
There's so much that you just shared that I think is
really worth bringing to thesurface One dropping from your
busy mind down into your body,and I love that you shared a
really simple way to do that.
It's truly a moment and it's apractice that you do on repeat
and really what you're doing isyou're regulating your nervous
(16:09):
system in that moment, gettingback into your body so that you
can come from a place ofchoosing your response versus
just reacting to the moment.
And I think, even when we talkabout as an individual and as an
organization and as a leader,taking those moments helps you
drop into your body.
Trust the response that you'rechoosing, which, therefore,
you're showing up in a moreconsistent manner with your team
(16:31):
, which has them trust you.
It starts with you, right?
We can't just be like, oh,trust other people.
It's like, well, where are younot trusting yourself?
I'm curious if you're seeing ashift in the way leaders are
leading, coming from a place ofthat self-compassion, that trust
, that grounding in.
Are you seeing that happen inthe real world more often now
than you're used to?
Douglas (16:52):
What I'm seeing is more of an attempt.
This is a process.
We're never gonna reachperfection, because the world is
not perfect.
I would say, though, it's toughfor leaders in an environment,
and this is what I try to workwith is like bringing that
grounding in this stuffenvironment.
I see a shift in the amount oftrainings and learning
opportunities there are to dothat, which means there's an
(17:14):
interest in it.
Melissa (17:15):
And it seems like people are just getting burnt
out, they're overwhelmed,they're overworked.
We've seen a huge increase inpeople leaving.
People want to have thesecareer aspirations, but at what
cost?
I think people are reallystarting to ask some bigger
questions, especially comingthrough COVID why, why am I not
(17:36):
prioritizing my joy?
Why am I grinding it out when Icould be making a bigger
difference?
I see it everywhere where thesedeeper questions are being
asked, and so I'm happy to seethat you're seeing a shift and
at least people are making aneffort, because that's where it
starts.
That's all we can ever do,right.
But I'm curious, jessica.
I know you're about to saysomething too.
Jessica (17:57):
I keep wanting to bring this back to the personal,
because it's sort of my way intothis, and to relating to this,
because I think these themes areso applicable.
So I'm excited to explore themin a personal way.
And so I guess, when I thinkabout this sort of environment
of compassion and self-trust, Ithink about it in terms of, I
(18:18):
guess, self-safety.
If you're growing up in anenvironment that shuts down your
creative ideas, that doesn'tallow you to pursue your dreams,
that tries to fit you into abox and tells you this is how
you're supposed to show up inthe world, right, it is so much
harder to trust yourself, toallow yourself to follow through
with your creativity.
So I'm curious how we cancultivate a more compassionate
(18:42):
and curious approach to our ownthoughts and ideas, especially
if that isn't something that hasbeen nurtured in our lives.
So if a leader wants to createan environment for the people
around them that allows them toshow up more creatively, you
know like everybody is going todo better work in an environment
where they feel nurtured andseen right.
(19:03):
They have true support.
But we have to give that toourselves too.
So how can we develop thisgrowth mindset, this willingness
to learn from failures as partof the creative process and be
more curious and compassionatetowards ourselves.
Douglas (19:19):
Yeah, I mean you said it.
My response was gonna be thegrowth mindset, which is and you
described it well is basicallylearning from your failures.
I think the key piece to thelearning from failures and
feeling safe is the non-judgmentcomponent.
So even in meditation you tryto work with non-judgment.
So I didn't get totally deepinto it this time.
(19:40):
Or I was restless this time orI fell asleep.
This time I was meditating.
I mean really leadership.
You can make a case that it'sanother form of meditation,
because as you incorporatemeditation into your life, the
actions you take are reallyrepresenting all that inner
stuff.
The mindfulness meditation isabout being aware of what's
going on in this moment andallowing it and allowing right,
(20:04):
and the allowing piece isnon-judgmental right and it's a
beginner's mindset.
That's the growth mindset in acertain way.
Those two things together, likethe growth mindset,
non-judgment, allowing failuresto be and learning from them.
I'll tell you one story thatreally speaks to me is my
daughter was a ski racer for awhile when she was younger.
So I learned to ski when I was50, just because I was hanging
(20:26):
around and I saw I better get onsome skis and try this thing
out, and I was headed towardsthe lift and it was a very
family mountain we used to go toand there was a little kid and
he was maybe five and thefathers teach him how to put his
boots in the bindings andthey're gliding off to the lift
and the kid asks his dad, whatif I fall?
(20:47):
And his dad just looks at himand goes like falling is
learning, and then boop off,they went.
And I just think, wow, man,that should be the motto of
today.
Yeah, keep falling, just learn.
You fell down, you get up, youfigure it out.
We go down the hill and we godown the hill together as you
learn.
Jessica (21:04):
I just think that what you're speaking to is what the
creative process is about, likemistakes, which I don't believe
in, but this idea that mistakesare part of the creative process
, that in order to be innovativeand creative, you have to try
things that you've never triedbefore, and some things are
going to work out and somethings may not.
(21:24):
But the things that don't workout it's not a failing.
It's like oh, that didn't work.
What new approach do I develop?
That's information thatactually helps me get where I
want to be.
Melissa (21:33):
It's a perfect parlay, because I was feeling into the
whole meaning of failure and theway in which it's taught to us,
and even prior to us going liveon the podcast, we were talking
about the grading system andit's you know, you get an A, you
get a B, you get a D.
It's very.
This is right, this is wrong,you know.
I think this is where theself-judgment comes in.
It's like there's this notenoughness and there's this
(21:56):
assumption that it's a black ora white thing, Like it's right
or wrong, it's A or B, it's veryfixed, and there's this whole
other world that's not this orthis, but that's where we can
get so much self-judgment is oh,it's supposed to be this way.
I should have done this.
This is the measurement, and ifI'm not at this measurement,
then it means I failed, whichmeans whatever our brain goes
(22:19):
into the story about right.
So even just that idea ofreteaching failure and a whole
different language to your pointof this is learning.
This is information.
This doesn't mean what we havehistorically made.
It mean to take the weight offof it, jessica.
Douglas (22:37):
it's what you were talking about, I think, before
we started this taking theweight off of the learning, off
of the moving forward.
Jessica (22:43):
You talk a lot about rewriting the playbook, the
personal playbook, which I thinkties into this, because I think
so much of being able to thinkoutside the box and come up with
new perspectives is aboutlearning to be in the gray right
, to get out of the black andwhite and be more flexible in
your thinking and in yourapproach to life.
(23:04):
So, in terms of developing thisflexible approach, you also
acknowledge that there's allthese habitual responses that we
have, right?
So how do we change our habitsof mind?
I think that's how you phraseit.
How do we change our habits ofmind?
Because most of us, I think, gothrough life on autopilot and we
make decision after decisionfrom this habitual place,
(23:26):
without ever challenging ourideas and our perspectives.
And in order to be an innovator, a leader, a rebel, you do need
to be able to witness the waythat we are repeating these
patterns and find a way to kindof I don't know what's the word
for that like breaking the cycle.
Break the cycle, yeah.
So how would you invite peopleto challenge their habitual
(23:50):
responses?
What do we actually do in orderto let go of those preconceived
notions, in order to get intonon-judgment and open ourselves
up to new possibilities?
Right?
Douglas (24:00):
Yeah, and in the book I call that the success paradox.
So we do something once and itworks, and then we get the
dopamine hit and it locks itinto our brain and then we do it
again, and so we've created ourplaybook.
We never want to leave thatplaybook because the moment you
do that it's a challenge, it'sfear, it's something new.
Jessica (24:17):
Isn't that interesting, though, if it's like the
playbook might not be workingfor us, but we're still getting
this like hit inside of us thatthis feels good.
Isn't that strange?
Douglas (24:28):
Yeah, and in fact what starts happening is you start
getting the hit ahead of timebecause you start going okay,
I'm going to do that thing.
And then your body startsfeeling great, oh, I have the
solution.
Okay, now I'm good, I kind ofdon't have to think anymore, or
I don't have to bring myself tothe situation.
I'm just going to repeat what Idid before.
It's like kicking in evenbefore we make the decision.
(24:49):
So we get more and more lockedinto that.
The more it happens, the morerepeating, repeating, repeating.
So your question was about howdo you get out of that?
How do we get out of being likea victim of our own successes?
A lot of the work is themindfulness piece, because
however you kind of work thatwhether it's through meditation
or embodiment there's a lot ofdifferent ways to get at that.
(25:11):
But it's really about coming tothe moment and facing what's
really happening in front of you.
You have to practice seeingthings in new ways.
So even if you can't think ofsomething new, the first part is
really just to see it for whatit is.
I got into this MBSR with allkinds of ways of doing this, but
it's kind of a formalizedmindfulness yoga.
(25:33):
Eight week experience and Istudied how to be a facilitator
of that, and so much of that isworking towards meditation and
yoga and embodiment.
Body scans you guys areprobably familiar with, very
slowly, what's going on in thispart of the body, what's going
on in that part.
So that's a 45 minuteexperience in itself.
They want you in MBSR, we'dlike you to do at least 45
(25:56):
minutes a day as your training.
But I'm a big fan of if all youhave is three minutes, do it
because it grounds you and itlets you be open and aware.
But it's really aboutpracticing that.
Practicing being in the momentand a mindset of, if there's
fear, one thing you can say is,instead of going, oh, I'm afraid
, I'm afraid is like okay, I'mclosing down Right, to be an
(26:20):
observer is to say fear is here,there's fear present that
separates it from you.
There's fear here.
Oh, I can observe it nowbecause it's not me going.
Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, it's now me going.
Oh, I see the fear.
Jessica (26:34):
I see the confusion.
You're not identifying with thefear, like making yourself one
with the fear.
It's just witnessing that it'sthere and creating separation.
Douglas (26:43):
Daniel Siegel, you guys may know, famous psychologist.
He has a phrase name it to tameit.
Yeah, yeah.
So there's fear here.
I've just named that thing.
Okay, now I may be experiencingthat fear, but I'm not clamping
down on it, I'm not trying toact on it, I'm just going.
It's there.
Eventually you have to act,because you were alive, you know
(27:03):
.
But the act that you're in theprocess of while you're doing
that kind of meditation is justthe awareness piece.
You're going to have the samekind of things with thoughts
floating through your mind.
If you're going, I don't wantto think, I don't want to hear
that, I don't want to hear that,I want to just focus on this.
You're in a whole second degreeof problem solving, which is
how do I get these thoughts outof my brain, instead of going.
(27:25):
Okay, there's thoughts.
Okay, I see that thought, Iacknowledge it, I let it go.
I name it to tame it.
I see that thought go by, I letit go.
Another way to go like hey, man, I recognize there's thoughts,
I'm just going to watch them goby and I'm going to work towards
not latching onto one of them.
There's a kind of meditationcalled mountain meditation,
where you're the mountain andthe seasons are flowing across
(27:46):
you, but you're steady, you'rethe mountain and sure, all these
storms are happening, theseclouds are floating by, you know
animals are walking on you, but, as the mountain, all these
things can be happening and youcan still be you.
You can still be your essence,you can still be your mountain
grounded.
And the mountain does not siton top of the earth.
The mountain extends deep intothe earth and, as a part of it,
(28:08):
is completely rounded.
Melissa (28:10):
In full transparency to our listeners.
I am a sick child at home forthe 7000th time this school year
, and so it feels like it's beenonce a week for the last month,
and so I am going to hop offand go put on my other hat and
go take care of him.
That's the whole of this right,so I'm going to stick around.
(28:31):
So thank you, thank you,douglas, for being here, thank
you, thank you, jessica, and Itruly love this conversation and
this is where I need to be inorder to take care of myself and
my life.
So, thank you, thank you, thankyou, thank you for being here
and I look forward to hearingthe rest, all right.
Jessica (28:48):
Okay, bye.
Douglas (28:49):
Bye.
Jessica (28:51):
Okay.
So I love how you make theconnection between leadership
and this need to own theunexpected and embrace the
unknown.
I think the nature of life isthe unknown and we have been
taught to fear the unknown andto fear the unexpected and put
all of these control mechanismsin our lives so that we don't
(29:13):
actually have to face the factthat we are all out of control
and that everything isunknowable.
But I love what you're teachingaround.
Leadership is.
There is this component ofembracing that journey and
embracing the mess, embracinguncertainty, and what you're
speaking to in terms of beingthe mountain and getting
grounded and getting presentallows you, in the present
(29:34):
moment, to deal with whatever iscoming up at any time from a
place of centeredness andgroundedness and consciousness
versus reaction.
Like we were talking earlier,we are meeting life moment by
moment by moment and know thatwe have the capacity to deal
with the unknown because reallywe're only dealing with it in
(29:55):
the present and in this sort oflike micro moment of what is in
the here and now.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does.
But you talked about.
Maybe there's the differencebetween, like trust and
intuition.
But I love how you discussintuition in the book, that it's
not just this random choice,that it's actually influenced by
your expertise and your values.
So I'd love for you to help usunderstand that a little bit
(30:15):
more, because I think that mighthelp people reframe their
relationship to their intuitionin these moments of needing to
meet uncertainty, to trust thatthey have these inner resources
to handle it if they understandexactly what intuition is.
Douglas (30:30):
So I have this tool in the book, called the Forged
Leader Intuitinator.
It's a journey through yourinternal values and taking
everything you know, yourexpertise, your skill sets, your
experience, your knowledge ofwhat's happening right now, then
applying your values anddetermining what action you want
to take.
Can I give an example?
Yeah, when Neil Armstrong,first guy on the moon, when they
(30:54):
were landing the lunarexcursion module, with a minute
of fuel to spare, he takesmanual control of the limb and
he lands it manually.
So why?
Because the computer is thebest computer they had for 1969,
you know.
But the computer had targetedthem to land in a crater of
rocks.
And so, with a minute of fuelto spare, he takes a look at it
(31:15):
it's not going to happen.
Okay, I can take it over.
And this is.
It's happening in a splitsecond.
He takes control of the limb andthen he's coming up, and the
most science exploratory areawould be to land in front of the
crater.
But in a split second he makesa decision.
He goes you know what?
I'm going to have to give upthe ultimate science experience
because I got to keep me andBuzz Aldrin alive, right and so
(31:36):
he winds up going past thecrater, landing on the other
side, and still they come backwith amazing stuff.
All of that, that valuedecision safety over science
that's the value decision.
Right, he's observing what'shappening, he knows his skill
set I mean, the guy was anamazing pilot and then the value
piece Okay, do I choose scienceover life, over safety?
I'm going to grab the stick andI'm going to land it over on
(31:58):
the other side.
Then he chooses that action,then he takes the action.
So that's what I'm talking aboutwith intuition.
It's not like coming fromnowhere.
There is a certain thing to sayokay, the universe is going to
help, but if we want to be alittle more tangible about it,
we can bring our skill sets, ourobservations, our values,
choosing action and then takingaction.
And for Neil Armstrong, thatwas a second, split second
(32:19):
decision with a minute of fuelleft to spare.
Jessica (32:21):
I think this is so important because I think for
many people, when we hear, oh, Ijust followed my intuition,
it's this sort of ethereal placethat we don't understand inside
of us.
But to understand thatintuition is a combination of
your life experience, your skillset, your values, all happening
in this sort of likeinstantaneous moment.
(32:43):
That's really worth trusting.
It's not coming from nowhere.
Douglas (32:46):
Intelligent risk is saying, okay, I don't have all
the information, but again,using the Intuinator, using that
model, takes into account allthe things that I can use to
make that decision my values andmy observation of what's going
on, my knowledge.
In addition, I would add, inhumility.
I think the book is like it'scouched in its leadership thing,
(33:08):
but it's really about also youleading your life and
transforming.
Vulnerability is asking forhelp and knowing that that's
okay, and in some organizationsand in some environments, if you
ask for help, it seems likeokay, now you're no longer the
expert you have to be vulnerableenough to ask for help.
Therefore, you're opening yourmindset to new perspectives.
(33:29):
Is someone telling you you knowwhat bad idea or a great idea
or whatever?
Here's additional informationto help make that decision.
It's like saying, okay, ego,I'm going to put you aside,
pride, I'm going to put youaside.
I'm going to go ask someonewhat they think.
Jessica (33:42):
You have a quote that you have in the book.
Is it Ram Dass?
Douglas (33:46):
Ram Dass yeah.
Jessica (33:47):
Perfected beings rest in emptiness.
Out of this restful place comesthe optimum response to any
life situation.
I loved this quote so much.
I speak a lot in my human designwork about the process of
creativity and creativitythrough the lens of human design
.
It's like a pulse, like it goeson and off and there's periods
(34:07):
of creativity and then there'speriods where we're sort of
sitting in the emptiness and thenothingness and a lot of people
get very scared of that stateof being.
They think they need to fix it.
What's wrong with me?
They kind of fall intomelancholy and I often talk
about how important that is tothe creative process, that it's
actually in the nothingness yoursystem is recharging.
But also in that nothingness iswhere creativity can happen.
(34:31):
It's like that's where all thepotential exists.
Our minds don't understand it,so our minds freak out and go
what's wrong?
How do I fix this?
How do I find a solution forthis?
We were to just rest in theemptiness.
Eventually a solution comes.
Eventually a creative idea willshow up.
So I loved that quote.
I also just think it goes backto what you were talking about,
(34:52):
that state of being, themountain.
You can be in that state ofstillness and embodied in
yourself, centered in yourself,that you will have the most
authentic response to anysituation that may arise, and to
not fear sitting in that space.
I'm just interested how youhave incorporated this
(35:13):
philosophy in how you approachyour life.
Douglas (35:16):
Well, you know, first of all, boy, you just are so
beautifully articulate.
I mean, you said that sowonderfully.
I wouldn't even attempt to eventry to improve on that.
That was beautiful.
I know what.
Jessica (35:26):
I said I can guess myself too.
I love that.
You said that I don't know ifany of that was English.
Douglas (35:33):
That was beautiful.
You know, one of the newphrases I'm learning is I think
it's from Jack Kornfeld, who'sin Northern California at the
Spirit Center it's don't worry,everything is out of your
control.
So it's another way of sayingfreedom's just another word for
nothing left to lose, and that'skind of that emptiness is like.
(35:56):
In fact, we don't even have tonecessarily do anything.
We're constantly moving towardsdoing, doing, doing.
And this is both my challengeand also kind of what's helping
me is trying to find and workingtowards that space of not doing
.
And there seems to be.
I mean, it's a little bit of aparadox, because you want to
have goals and intentions andthings to move forward, but at
(36:17):
the same time you want to dothat without stress.
So it's a little bit of likepassive activeness.
I've forgotten the exactquestion, but I'll just say that
in finding that center and inworking with folks and I've just
been so lucky to find someamazing teachers, healers,
philosophers to work with thathave been working in tandem with
(36:40):
me and advising me on how tomove through this empty space,
how to create that empty spaceand move through it, but I'll
say, the most difficult space,and this is why you need people
who support you is to be in thatparadox, to stay in that space.
It's very uncomfortable most ofthe time for people to be in
that open, empty space.
(37:01):
That's why there's so manypeople helping others to get it
done.
I think that's where I've beenworking and where I've been
making the most change, even ifit's a little, you know,
cornflake of a change you knowit's like where that crack is
opening is to be able to sit inthat empty space a little bit
longer and allow it to let it be.
(37:23):
I think that's what Ram Dasswas talking about and that's why
I included.
It is allowing that space to befeeling supported, to be in
that space like it's okay to notknow Perfection will arise out
of that.
Jessica (37:35):
It's okay to not know.
Douglas (37:36):
Yeah.
Jessica (37:36):
Yeah, my takeaway.
There's so many takeaways fromtoday, but I really am struck by
how to be a leader or, in ourcase, when we talk about being a
rebel or just being anauthentic being in the world,
how it is synonymous withuncertainty, with fear, sitting
(37:59):
in the unknown, having toconstantly shift perspectives
and be flexibly minded in yourapproach to life, to be brave
enough to be different, tolisten to your own intuition,
even if it doesn't make sense toother people.
Exactly Okay.
So trust yourself enough totake up space and show up, even
(38:25):
in that fear, even in thatdiscomfort.
That's, I think.
What I'm saying is that it'ssynonymous with discomfort.
It's synonymous the right word.
Sometimes I use words wrong.
Okay, it's okay.
Douglas (38:35):
Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying there's
discomfort in there.
You're speaking to the processof life in a certain way.
We have discomfort, we can getsick, we can be confused, we can
be worried.
That's all discomfort.
There's so many ways of workingwith that, but a lot of it to
(38:56):
me is allowing it to let it beokay.
Going back to that phrase thereis discomfort here there's
discomfort.
I can allow that discomfort tobe and with different kinds of
techniques, different kinds ofbody scans and stuff, actually
you can realize that thatdiscomfort.
There's ways of allowing it tonot take over your entire
mindset, process, body set,experience, and say part of that
(39:19):
is to say, okay, I'm gonna saywhat does my knee feel like
right now?
What does my arm feel like?
Okay, the discomfort is stillthere, but you forgot about it
for a second, helping you to bein the world with it.
Jessica (39:29):
I think discomfort is a signal that you are doing
something you've never donebefore, or you're stretching
yourself, or you're going down apath that maybe doesn't have a
map or a guidebook.
All of those things are goodthings.
It's like if our brain doesn'trecognize where we're going, it
freaks out and it's gonna makeus uncomfortable.
(39:50):
But to actually forge a newpath in the world, it's just
gonna feel weird because it'sgonna be new.
And so to get comfortable withthat discomfort and to recognize
it as and fear as well as asign of I'm actually moving in
the right direction.
Douglas (40:04):
Yeah, they're all teachers, right.
I mean, fear is a teacherdiscomfort is a teacher,
Sometimes it's hard to find thelessons when you're
uncomfortable and when you'refearful.
But finding that open space is,if it's about decision making,
finding that open space is thatcreative space, staying there
and the more you can stay there.
(40:24):
So I mean like if there's atrain coming after you have to
figure out how to get out of itsway, you're not gonna sit
around, yeah, so I don't want totell people to like take some
kind of crazy risk just becauseI said you don't do it.
Yeah, that's not what we mean.
Jessica (40:36):
Different kind of discomfort.
So discomfort of showing up ina space that you're feeling
called to show up in but haveimposter syndrome, you know.
Or have discomfort aroundmoving in a direction even
though you know it's authenticfor you, but it feels new and
scary because no one's ever doneit before.
Douglas (40:52):
Well, yeah, exactly, and you've said it well.
Can I just go back to the NeilArmstrong thing for a second?
Is in that moment when he didthat?
If you listen to the recordingsthey're all on the nasagov site
.
He sounds so calm it's like, oh, kind of, I'm doing this, roger
, okay, I'm doing that, roger.
I mean, they're, you know,deeply trained to do that.
His heart rate doubled.
(41:13):
So internally he's feeling that, but his actions are expressed
in a certain way because he'shighly trained.
So that's where, like, youbring your skills to that space.
He had that open space, he madethat decision in that open
space, but he was able to openit and close it very quickly
because of the situation, theemergency, his skillset, his
(41:35):
values.
I mean he was in touch with allthose things.
And the more you work with allthose and he willing to change
them, to change the playbook orto say that value is not working
for him anymore, that's a bias.
Maybe I need to change, theopen to changing, transforming.
Then you're really enteringthat space where, like, all
possibilities can be.
Jessica (41:54):
Yes, oh, I love that.
I'm going to end on that,because that's perfect.
The space where allpossibilities can be, that is
what I think that space ofemptiness is.
So thank you, thank you so muchfor sharing so much today and
your vulnerability.
I really appreciate all of yourinsight and expertise and
(42:16):
wisdom that you were willing tobe so generous with.
Douglas (42:19):
Thank you and me to you .
I appreciate your thoughtprocess, your openness, the way
you word things, I mean yourintentions, just all so
beautiful.
I mean it's just a pleasure tohave had this time with you.
Jessica (42:30):
Oh, I so appreciate that.
Thank you and I look forward tothe next book.
But Forge you can find Forge onAmazoncom.
It's Forge Practices of GreatLeaders and Volatile Times.
Douglas (42:42):
The Audiblecom book is coming out next week, the
Audible version of it, so youwon't listen too much.
Jessica (42:48):
Yes, so listen to it in your car.
I just have to say that as Iread it, I was like, yes, these
are practices that every leader,every human being can
incorporate into their lives tofind more expansiveness and
authenticity and purpose, and Ireally appreciate what you do.
So thank you so much.
Douglas (43:07):
Thanks, Jessica.
If you enjoy this episode, we would love it if you
would leave us a review, giveus a follow or a like and share
it with your friends.
Thanks, rebels.
Melissa (00:11):
To even question what you've been told is true is
incredibly courageous.
It doesn't always feel likecourage.
What looks like courage toother people, for me it feels
like survival.
This is our personal medicine.
Douglas (00:24):
If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion,
by integrity, then I really dothink that I know who I am.
Melissa (00:30):
There is a piece that is indescribable when you're
being who you are and you'reliving your purpose Not going to
come to the end of my life andbe like I didn't live the life I
was meant to live- Can I be socomfortable in the unknown and
so comfortable in thatuncertainty that every version
of it is going to be okay?
This is the Inner Rebel podcast.
Jessica (00:58):
Welcome, rebels.
I am so excited to be sittinghere with Melissa and Douglas
Sherer.
We're so happy to have you onthe show, douglas.
We met in December and I kindof love how the universe works.
Something has just brought usback together again in the sort
of synchronistic way, so Ireally feel like we're meant to
be having this conversationtoday.
(01:18):
I'm excited to dive into allthe questions I have about your
awesome book.
You have over a decade ofexperience in leadership
development a keynote speaker,workshop facilitator, coach and
retreat leader.
Your driving force is adeep-seated desire to help
people thrive, both personallyand professionally, fostering a
culture of trust, transparencyand collaboration and creating a
(01:40):
safe space for exploration andgrowth, which I love.
You also have a background inmindfulness and leadership, so
you have this really uniqueblend of expertise.
You have a very holisticapproach to your work.
Your new book, forge, wasranked a number one new release
and number one bestseller onAmazoncom.
Douglas (01:59):
Thanks for that lovely introduction.
I'll just Melissa, you putsomething in one of your
LinkedIn things which is you'rededicated to taking up space.
That has been stuck in my brainsince I saw that because, as an
introvert, my whole world islike, okay, I don't want to take
up space.
That whole thing is like that'smy mantra now I'm dedicated to
(02:19):
taking up space.
Melissa (02:21):
What does that look like for you?
What's that?
Because that looks different,obviously, for me and for you.
What does that expansivenesslook like to you?
Douglas (02:29):
Yeah, well, it looks like a couple things.
My body's recovering from twomajor surgeries, one of them
opening up my spine.
This idea of taking up space asI'm going through physical
therapy and learning how to walkagain and all those kinds of
things is really a veryexpansive opening, fear reducing
(02:50):
mindset and feeling like, hey,I belong in this world, like
this body belongs in this world,this mindset belongs in this
world, and even if I feel shyabout it, if I'm dedicated to
taking up space, I could stillbe shy, I could still whatever
that feels like.
I mean, part of it is likelearning to stand up straight
(03:11):
and bring my shoulders back,which is like my whole body is
like physically trying to pullme down.
My lungs open up.
The boundaries are beyond thebody.
The energy boundaries gowherever they go.
I mean Reiki healers will workwith you from a completely
different continent.
So all of that makes it veryconnected and very expansive and
I just love that statement thatyou made.
Melissa (03:34):
And I love that you talked about like there's the
physical body that's right herethat takes up actual space, and
then there's like the energeticbody, or whatever you want to
call the energy field that takesup space.
And it's not about like takingup space isn't about being the
loudest person in the room.
I think there's a misconceptionof like I got to be out there
(03:55):
and commanding and like maybeeven annoying to people.
It's not about the biggestpersonality in the room.
You said it so perfectly.
It's about like a belonging andlike I'm worthy of my body, I'm
worthy of my voice, I'm worthyof my experience of the world,
I'm worthy of getting support,asking for help.
(04:18):
My needs get to matter right.
So it's really like a claimingof self, in a way, and I think
that distinction is reallyimportant because it's not an
expectation that everyone needsto get loud all of a sudden.
Douglas (04:31):
Right, and it could even be.
I mean, as an intro.
It's like an internal thing,rather than I'm going to be
pushing myself in people's faces.
It's more like I can be evenbigger than people think I am,
bigger than I think I am.
You know, it can just be.
I'm here, you know I'm in thisworld.
Melissa (04:47):
So it was beautiful.
That line I have it like righthere.
I love that you brought that up.
Jessica (04:53):
We like to ask everyone who shows up here because you
have all these amazing,wonderful accomplishments, but
we're interested also in how yousee yourself and how that may
be different from who youthought you were supposed to be,
what you may have thoughtsociety would have expected you
to be.
You talk about rewriting theplaybook and I'm interested in
(05:14):
how you feel you have personallyrewritten your playbook in your
own life.
Douglas (05:22):
Wow, it's hard to know where to start.
I don't know if I can hold itdown to one thing.
I'm very passionate aboutbringing this transformative
experience, inspirationalexperience, liberating
experience to workers, toleaders and really to anybody.
They don't have to be at work.
Also, parents, I should say.
I'm actually just startingresearch on a book for parents.
There's so many kids that haveemotional challenges and so the
(05:45):
next thing is kind of bring thisexperience and this kind of
writing to help parents helpthemselves.
So my passion is aboutresearching and helping through
the research and the writing andthe consulting and the
workshops and the keynotes.
But I think society wanted meto be an engineer and we'll just
say that there were severalthings that weren't going to
(06:06):
allow that to happen.
I mean, I can't read aschematic, at least one as of
1975.
Jessica (06:12):
And I don't even know what that is.
Douglas (06:14):
But I was studying music.
So I have a Bachelor of FineArts in Music and I started
looking into both world musicand kind of like Renaissance,
medieval, Baroque kind of stuffand that oddly led me into
getting a side gig of working inmusic libraries as a music
librarian.
So I never thought I was goingto be into technology, but it
was right about that time thattechnology was coming into
(06:36):
libraries online card catalogsand things like that and so I
wound up moving in thatdirection and I never thought I
would be like a technologyleader.
In fact I kind of reallydisliked technology.
I remember seeing the firstApple Computer and going like
I'm never having that in myhouse.
That has never entered my world.
My beginning is more about artand music and creativity, but I
also think there's a lot offolks in that, a lot of folks
(06:59):
that came from music that wentinto technology, Because for
some reason the thought processis somehow the same.
It seems kind of weird, but theearly days I was kind of into
this mindset of some otherpeople which is like writing
computer code there's like apoetry to it, it's a language in
itself.
So I never thought I'd see thatand then that kind of led me
into.
In the 90s I had by a kind ofboutique consulting firm and I
(07:20):
think it's because of thatcreativity, that openness, I
know how things get done in thetech world.
I kept getting put more andmore in front of executives.
Melissa (07:29):
And so.
Douglas (07:29):
I never thought I was going to be there.
So when I was studying earlymusic, I never thought that was
going to lead me to sitting withexecutives and helping them
open and transform.
But that's where.
Jessica (07:38):
I am now In a way, as you talk, I'm like, oh, you're
like this bridge.
You're this bridge betweencreativity, imagination and then
having this sort of technicalprocess, helping people link who
they are and what their purposeis and who they're really
wanting to be in the world, buthaving to work with sort of the
confines of the system thatthey're within, if that makes
(08:01):
sense, Finding a way to findharmony within, that is that
making any sense.
Douglas (08:05):
It's just interesting you put it that way, because a
lot of the work I do and thetalks I do try to do, that exact
bridge is try to say here's whythis is important.
I can see it from both sidesbecause, having been a
technology a long time andknowing the teaching that I do
at Columbia is a lot about thisto my master students Teaching
(08:26):
them technology in a way thatleaders can use it to then
create a better dialogue andunderstanding and alignment with
what needs to get done.
The bridge is really like whatdoes it mean to somebody?
How are they going to use it?
Why are they going to use it?
Oftentimes, from a personallevel, it's like what does this
(08:48):
mean to me With the folks I help?
That's the transformationprocess.
What does it really mean to you?
What are you experiencing withthis?
Jessica (08:55):
I'm curious in your own journey of rewriting your
personal playbook, what havebeen some specific limiting
beliefs or habitual beliefs thatyou have had to work on and
overcome in order to be more ofa leader yourself or more
authentic in your life?
Douglas (09:13):
I would say one of the key things I'm battling is
imposter syndrome.
I know a lot of people aregoing through this now.
The thing there is just neverfeeling like I know enough,
you'll never know enough.
You'll just never know enough.
Melissa (09:25):
You know what you know.
Douglas (09:27):
Not that you shouldn't continue to learn, but how much
do you need to know to feelcomfortable?
That's my fascination with theintuition piece.
They say that you write whatyou want to know.
In some ways I wasinvestigating what I want to
know.
Coming to terms with being ableto speak to someone like you on
a podcast, being able torespond to these kinds of
(09:48):
questions without secondguessing, without filtering
everything before it comes out.
That has always been achallenge for me and continues
to be.
But I think that's one of thethings where I'm really changing
the playbook.
And what Melissa had said abouttaking up space, that whole
mindset, is like a currenttransformation for me.
(10:08):
I think that's where I'm moreand more headed.
To me, that's a statement ofembodiment.
The intuition thing is anembodiment thing too.
All these things are aboutfinding your place in the world,
where we're existing, in thesebodies.
I think that's the playbook.
Change for me is to become moreembodied, become more grounded
(10:28):
and to be less concerned withworrying about everything.
I say that the words have to beperfect or the thought can't be
corrected.
Jessica (10:35):
I deeply responded to your book.
This book is about the new waveof leadership.
Because I come from a totallydifferent world and different
background than both of you do.
I responded because I thinkyou're speaking to things that
actually transcend the workenvironment.
(10:58):
You're speaking to qualitiesthat, as I was reading, I'm like
this is just really good lifeadvice for anyone.
Also, here we are on thispodcast.
The title is Interreble andwe're talking about what it
takes to forge your own path inthe world.
Everything that you write aboutto me is applicable to waking
(11:20):
up every day as a human beingand setting out on your own
course in terms of followingyour intuition, learning boxes,
self-trust, in terms ofcompassion.
I was saying to Melissa I senther a little voice memo and I'm
like I feel like leadership andbeing a rebel is sort of
synonymous in some way, becauseto show up as a rebel in the
(11:42):
world means that you are doingsomething that's never been done
before and setting an example.
Douglas (11:48):
Right, I'm so glad you picked up on that and that
you're bringing that up.
The more I wrote the book, themore I saw what you did and it
wasn't.
My initial intent is that theseare things that are applicable
to just making decisions in reallife.
You don't have to be a leader.
What you're leading is your ownlife.
What you're bringing forward isyour own purpose.
As you come up to challenges inlife, you enter the analogies
(12:14):
of the forge.
It's this high pressure.
Maybe you don't know everythingthat's going on.
In fact, we probably don't havethe answers to most of the
questions that are coming up inlife and we have to find a way
to work with them.
Jessica (12:26):
When I break down these principles that you talk
through for forge leadership youhave favor compassion only,
unexpected recast ideas, go withintuition, employ action
communications and drivecommunity bonds.
I really love the link that youmake between compassion and
innovation because it was aperspective shift for me and I'm
(12:47):
wondering if you can speak moreto that relationship in terms
of how does a negative or unsafeexternal environment impact our
ability to think creatively andtake risks?
Because it also made me thinkabout our internal environment,
our self-talk, ourself-criticism and self-judgment
, and how huge a roleself-compassion has in showing
(13:10):
up authentically in all thesedifferent realms in our lives.
How can we also create asupportive internal environment
that encourages self-expressionand creativity?
Douglas (13:18):
We start with self-compassion, because that's
core and you think, oh,leadership, I'm leading everyone
else right.
But you can also burn out.
You can also give too much.
You can worry so much aboutwhat's going to happen that
you're now in paralysis and youcan't really think, you can't
move forward.
The self-compassion reallyallows you to settle and perhaps
(13:42):
listeners may want to even tryjust like feeling their feet on
the floor, whether they'restanding or sitting, or if
they're laying down, they canfeel their back on the floor and
just feeling grounded for amoment, like really feel the
connection between your wholefoot and the floor.
And then moving into Chi Gug alittle bit, feeling and
imagining like a golden lightcoming down out of your feet,
(14:05):
like three feet, six feet, justall the way down, and that
taking just like a deep breath,and that alone can be very
grounding.
Peace and ease is made inlittle moments, at a time, and
that little moment, just feelingyour feet on the floor,
situates you instead of in thehead, instead of just oh, what
(14:25):
about this, what about that,what about this, what about that
?
All of a sudden, the whole body, the mind, the heart, the
spirit, everything is nowanchored, if we're able to do
that even once an hour.
I mean, how long did that take?
I mean, I just see the clock,but I think that was a minute
and a half right If you were totake three minutes an hour doing
that, especially if you'reworking on the computer all day.
I mean, big data is now comingat you.
(14:45):
There's messages flying andsince the pandemic started
there's been an increase between2020 through the end of 2022.
The number of double bookmeetings has increased by 46%,
so you can't even focus on ameeting.
I know I have like frequentlythree meetings at a time and
chats coming in and emailsflying around.
(15:06):
When we take that breath, it'smoving into the parasympathetic
nervous system.
You're moving out of the flightfreeze and into the regulation
of that and I think that we'removing as a leadership group and
as a world.
I think we're trying to movemore into this regulated thing,
because politics and war andfamine and climate change I mean
(15:26):
there's enough to worry about.
We need to take that time forourselves to make sure we can
exist within that realm of chaos, and grounding yourself can
help do that and that's adaptiveself-compassion Just feeling
your feet on the floor.
You can now be centered in thatto try to make the best
decision you can, even given notenough information.
Melissa (15:48):
There's so much that you just shared that I think is
really worth bringing to thesurface One dropping from your
busy mind down into your body,and I love that you shared a
really simple way to do that.
It's truly a moment and it's apractice that you do on repeat
and really what you're doing isyou're regulating your nervous
(16:09):
system in that moment, gettingback into your body so that you
can come from a place ofchoosing your response versus
just reacting to the moment.
And I think, even when we talkabout as an individual and as an
organization and as a leader,taking those moments helps you
drop into your body.
Trust the response that you'rechoosing, which, therefore,
you're showing up in a moreconsistent manner with your team
(16:31):
, which has them trust you.
It starts with you, right?
We can't just be like, oh,trust other people.
It's like, well, where are younot trusting yourself?
I'm curious if you're seeing ashift in the way leaders are
leading, coming from a place ofthat self-compassion, that trust
, that grounding in.
Are you seeing that happen inthe real world more often now
than you're used to?
Douglas (16:52):
What I'm seeing is more of an attempt.
This is a process.
We're never gonna reachperfection, because the world is
not perfect.
I would say, though, it's toughfor leaders in an environment,
and this is what I try to workwith is like bringing that
grounding in this stuffenvironment.
I see a shift in the amount oftrainings and learning
opportunities there are to dothat, which means there's an
(17:14):
interest in it.
Melissa (17:15):
And it seems like people are just getting burnt
out, they're overwhelmed,they're overworked.
We've seen a huge increase inpeople leaving.
People want to have thesecareer aspirations, but at what
cost?
I think people are reallystarting to ask some bigger
questions, especially comingthrough COVID why, why am I not
(17:36):
prioritizing my joy?
Why am I grinding it out when Icould be making a bigger
difference?
I see it everywhere where thesedeeper questions are being
asked, and so I'm happy to seethat you're seeing a shift and
at least people are making aneffort, because that's where it
starts.
That's all we can ever do,right.
But I'm curious, jessica.
I know you're about to saysomething too.
Jessica (17:57):
I keep wanting to bring this back to the personal,
because it's sort of my way intothis, and to relating to this,
because I think these themes areso applicable.
So I'm excited to explore themin a personal way.
And so I guess, when I thinkabout this sort of environment
of compassion and self-trust, Ithink about it in terms of, I
(18:18):
guess, self-safety.
If you're growing up in anenvironment that shuts down your
creative ideas, that doesn'tallow you to pursue your dreams,
that tries to fit you into abox and tells you this is how
you're supposed to show up inthe world, right, it is so much
harder to trust yourself, toallow yourself to follow through
with your creativity.
So I'm curious how we cancultivate a more compassionate
(18:42):
and curious approach to our ownthoughts and ideas, especially
if that isn't something that hasbeen nurtured in our lives.
So if a leader wants to createan environment for the people
around them that allows them toshow up more creatively, you
know like everybody is going todo better work in an environment
where they feel nurtured andseen right.
(19:03):
They have true support.
But we have to give that toourselves too.
So how can we develop thisgrowth mindset, this willingness
to learn from failures as partof the creative process and be
more curious and compassionatetowards ourselves.
Douglas (19:19):
Yeah, I mean you said it.
My response was gonna be thegrowth mindset, which is and you
described it well is basicallylearning from your failures.
I think the key piece to thelearning from failures and
feeling safe is the non-judgmentcomponent.
So even in meditation you tryto work with non-judgment.
So I didn't get totally deepinto it this time.
(19:40):
Or I was restless this time orI fell asleep.
This time I was meditating.
I mean really leadership.
You can make a case that it'sanother form of meditation,
because as you incorporatemeditation into your life, the
actions you take are reallyrepresenting all that inner
stuff.
The mindfulness meditation isabout being aware of what's
going on in this moment andallowing it and allowing right,
(20:04):
and the allowing piece isnon-judgmental right and it's a
beginner's mindset.
That's the growth mindset in acertain way.
Those two things together, likethe growth mindset,
non-judgment, allowing failuresto be and learning from them.
I'll tell you one story thatreally speaks to me is my
daughter was a ski racer for awhile when she was younger.
So I learned to ski when I was50, just because I was hanging
(20:26):
around and I saw I better get onsome skis and try this thing
out, and I was headed towardsthe lift and it was a very
family mountain we used to go toand there was a little kid and
he was maybe five and thefathers teach him how to put his
boots in the bindings andthey're gliding off to the lift
and the kid asks his dad, whatif I fall?
(20:47):
And his dad just looks at himand goes like falling is
learning, and then boop off,they went.
And I just think, wow, man,that should be the motto of
today.
Yeah, keep falling, just learn.
You fell down, you get up, youfigure it out.
We go down the hill and we godown the hill together as you
learn.
Jessica (21:04):
I just think that what you're speaking to is what the
creative process is about, likemistakes, which I don't believe
in, but this idea that mistakesare part of the creative process
, that in order to be innovativeand creative, you have to try
things that you've never triedbefore, and some things are
going to work out and somethings may not.
(21:24):
But the things that don't workout it's not a failing.
It's like oh, that didn't work.
What new approach do I develop?
That's information thatactually helps me get where I
want to be.
Melissa (21:33):
It's a perfect parlay, because I was feeling into the
whole meaning of failure and theway in which it's taught to us,
and even prior to us going liveon the podcast, we were talking
about the grading system andit's you know, you get an A, you
get a B, you get a D.
It's very.
This is right, this is wrong,you know.
I think this is where theself-judgment comes in.
It's like there's this notenoughness and there's this
(21:56):
assumption that it's a black ora white thing, Like it's right
or wrong, it's A or B, it's veryfixed, and there's this whole
other world that's not this orthis, but that's where we can
get so much self-judgment is oh,it's supposed to be this way.
I should have done this.
This is the measurement, and ifI'm not at this measurement,
then it means I failed, whichmeans whatever our brain goes
(22:19):
into the story about right.
So even just that idea ofreteaching failure and a whole
different language to your pointof this is learning.
This is information.
This doesn't mean what we havehistorically made.
It mean to take the weight offof it, jessica.
Douglas (22:37):
it's what you were talking about, I think, before
we started this taking theweight off of the learning, off
of the moving forward.
Jessica (22:43):
You talk a lot about rewriting the playbook, the
personal playbook, which I thinkties into this, because I think
so much of being able to thinkoutside the box and come up with
new perspectives is aboutlearning to be in the gray right
, to get out of the black andwhite and be more flexible in
your thinking and in yourapproach to life.
(23:04):
So, in terms of developing thisflexible approach, you also
acknowledge that there's allthese habitual responses that we
have, right?
So how do we change our habitsof mind?
I think that's how you phraseit.
How do we change our habits ofmind?
Because most of us, I think, gothrough life on autopilot and we
make decision after decisionfrom this habitual place,
(23:26):
without ever challenging ourideas and our perspectives.
And in order to be an innovator, a leader, a rebel, you do need
to be able to witness the waythat we are repeating these
patterns and find a way to kindof I don't know what's the word
for that like breaking the cycle.
Break the cycle, yeah.
So how would you invite peopleto challenge their habitual
(23:50):
responses?
What do we actually do in orderto let go of those preconceived
notions, in order to get intonon-judgment and open ourselves
up to new possibilities?
Right?
Douglas (24:00):
Yeah, and in the book I call that the success paradox.
So we do something once and itworks, and then we get the
dopamine hit and it locks itinto our brain and then we do it
again, and so we've created ourplaybook.
We never want to leave thatplaybook because the moment you
do that it's a challenge, it'sfear, it's something new.
Jessica (24:17):
Isn't that interesting, though, if it's like the
playbook might not be workingfor us, but we're still getting
this like hit inside of us thatthis feels good.
Isn't that strange?
Douglas (24:28):
Yeah, and in fact what starts happening is you start
getting the hit ahead of timebecause you start going okay,
I'm going to do that thing.
And then your body startsfeeling great, oh, I have the
solution.
Okay, now I'm good, I kind ofdon't have to think anymore, or
I don't have to bring myself tothe situation.
I'm just going to repeat what Idid before.
It's like kicking in evenbefore we make the decision.
(24:49):
So we get more and more lockedinto that.
The more it happens, the morerepeating, repeating, repeating.
So your question was about howdo you get out of that?
How do we get out of being likea victim of our own successes?
A lot of the work is themindfulness piece, because
however you kind of work thatwhether it's through meditation
or embodiment there's a lot ofdifferent ways to get at that.
(25:11):
But it's really about coming tothe moment and facing what's
really happening in front of you.
You have to practice seeingthings in new ways.
So even if you can't think ofsomething new, the first part is
really just to see it for whatit is.
I got into this MBSR with allkinds of ways of doing this, but
it's kind of a formalizedmindfulness yoga.
(25:33):
Eight week experience and Istudied how to be a facilitator
of that, and so much of that isworking towards meditation and
yoga and embodiment.
Body scans you guys areprobably familiar with, very
slowly, what's going on in thispart of the body, what's going
on in that part.
So that's a 45 minuteexperience in itself.
They want you in MBSR, we'dlike you to do at least 45
(25:56):
minutes a day as your training.
But I'm a big fan of if all youhave is three minutes, do it
because it grounds you and itlets you be open and aware.
But it's really aboutpracticing that.
Practicing being in the momentand a mindset of, if there's
fear, one thing you can say is,instead of going, oh, I'm afraid
, I'm afraid is like okay, I'mclosing down Right, to be an
(26:20):
observer is to say fear is here,there's fear present that
separates it from you.
There's fear here.
Oh, I can observe it nowbecause it's not me going.
Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, it's now me going.
Oh, I see the fear.
Jessica (26:34):
I see the confusion.
You're not identifying with thefear, like making yourself one
with the fear.
It's just witnessing that it'sthere and creating separation.
Douglas (26:43):
Daniel Siegel, you guys may know, famous psychologist.
He has a phrase name it to tameit.
Yeah, yeah.
So there's fear here.
I've just named that thing.
Okay, now I may be experiencingthat fear, but I'm not clamping
down on it, I'm not trying toact on it, I'm just going.
It's there.
Eventually you have to act,because you were alive, you know
(27:03):
.
But the act that you're in theprocess of while you're doing
that kind of meditation is justthe awareness piece.
You're going to have the samekind of things with thoughts
floating through your mind.
If you're going, I don't wantto think, I don't want to hear
that, I don't want to hear that,I want to just focus on this.
You're in a whole second degreeof problem solving, which is
how do I get these thoughts outof my brain, instead of going.
(27:25):
Okay, there's thoughts.
Okay, I see that thought, Iacknowledge it, I let it go.
I name it to tame it.
I see that thought go by, I letit go.
Another way to go like hey, man, I recognize there's thoughts,
I'm just going to watch them goby and I'm going to work towards
not latching onto one of them.
There's a kind of meditationcalled mountain meditation,
where you're the mountain andthe seasons are flowing across
(27:46):
you, but you're steady, you'rethe mountain and sure, all these
storms are happening, theseclouds are floating by, you know
animals are walking on you, but, as the mountain, all these
things can be happening and youcan still be you.
You can still be your essence,you can still be your mountain
grounded.
And the mountain does not siton top of the earth.
The mountain extends deep intothe earth and, as a part of it,
(28:08):
is completely rounded.
Melissa (28:10):
In full transparency to our listeners.
I am a sick child at home forthe 7000th time this school year
, and so it feels like it's beenonce a week for the last month,
and so I am going to hop offand go put on my other hat and
go take care of him.
That's the whole of this right,so I'm going to stick around.
(28:31):
So thank you, thank you,douglas, for being here, thank
you, thank you, jessica, and Itruly love this conversation and
this is where I need to be inorder to take care of myself and
my life.
So, thank you, thank you, thankyou, thank you for being here
and I look forward to hearingthe rest, all right.
Jessica (28:48):
Okay, bye.
Douglas (28:49):
Bye.
Jessica (28:51):
Okay.
So I love how you make theconnection between leadership
and this need to own theunexpected and embrace the
unknown.
I think the nature of life isthe unknown and we have been
taught to fear the unknown andto fear the unexpected and put
all of these control mechanismsin our lives so that we don't
(29:13):
actually have to face the factthat we are all out of control
and that everything isunknowable.
But I love what you're teachingaround.
Leadership is.
There is this component ofembracing that journey and
embracing the mess, embracinguncertainty, and what you're
speaking to in terms of beingthe mountain and getting
grounded and getting presentallows you, in the present
(29:34):
moment, to deal with whatever iscoming up at any time from a
place of centeredness andgroundedness and consciousness
versus reaction.
Like we were talking earlier,we are meeting life moment by
moment by moment and know thatwe have the capacity to deal
with the unknown because reallywe're only dealing with it in
(29:55):
the present and in this sort oflike micro moment of what is in
the here and now.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does.
But you talked about.
Maybe there's the differencebetween, like trust and
intuition.
But I love how you discussintuition in the book, that it's
not just this random choice,that it's actually influenced by
your expertise and your values.
So I'd love for you to help usunderstand that a little bit
(30:15):
more, because I think that mighthelp people reframe their
relationship to their intuitionin these moments of needing to
meet uncertainty, to trust thatthey have these inner resources
to handle it if they understandexactly what intuition is.
Douglas (30:30):
So I have this tool in the book, called the Forged
Leader Intuitinator.
It's a journey through yourinternal values and taking
everything you know, yourexpertise, your skill sets, your
experience, your knowledge ofwhat's happening right now, then
applying your values anddetermining what action you want
to take.
Can I give an example?
Yeah, when Neil Armstrong,first guy on the moon, when they
(30:54):
were landing the lunarexcursion module, with a minute
of fuel to spare, he takesmanual control of the limb and
he lands it manually.
So why?
Because the computer is thebest computer they had for 1969,
you know.
But the computer had targetedthem to land in a crater of
rocks.
And so, with a minute of fuelto spare, he takes a look at it
(31:15):
it's not going to happen.
Okay, I can take it over.
And this is.
It's happening in a splitsecond.
He takes control of the limb andthen he's coming up, and the
most science exploratory areawould be to land in front of the
crater.
But in a split second he makesa decision.
He goes you know what?
I'm going to have to give upthe ultimate science experience
because I got to keep me andBuzz Aldrin alive, right and so
(31:36):
he winds up going past thecrater, landing on the other
side, and still they come backwith amazing stuff.
All of that, that valuedecision safety over science
that's the value decision.
Right, he's observing what'shappening, he knows his skill
set I mean, the guy was anamazing pilot and then the value
piece Okay, do I choose scienceover life, over safety?
I'm going to grab the stick andI'm going to land it over on
(31:58):
the other side.
Then he chooses that action,then he takes the action.
So that's what I'm talking aboutwith intuition.
It's not like coming fromnowhere.
There is a certain thing to sayokay, the universe is going to
help, but if we want to be alittle more tangible about it,
we can bring our skill sets, ourobservations, our values,
choosing action and then takingaction.
And for Neil Armstrong, thatwas a second, split second
(32:19):
decision with a minute of fuelleft to spare.
Jessica (32:21):
I think this is so important because I think for
many people, when we hear, oh, Ijust followed my intuition,
it's this sort of ethereal placethat we don't understand inside
of us.
But to understand thatintuition is a combination of
your life experience, your skillset, your values, all happening
in this sort of likeinstantaneous moment.
(32:43):
That's really worth trusting.
It's not coming from nowhere.
Douglas (32:46):
Intelligent risk is saying, okay, I don't have all
the information, but again,using the Intuinator, using that
model, takes into account allthe things that I can use to
make that decision my values andmy observation of what's going
on, my knowledge.
In addition, I would add, inhumility.
I think the book is like it'scouched in its leadership thing,
(33:08):
but it's really about also youleading your life and
transforming.
Vulnerability is asking forhelp and knowing that that's
okay, and in some organizationsand in some environments, if you
ask for help, it seems likeokay, now you're no longer the
expert you have to be vulnerableenough to ask for help.
Therefore, you're opening yourmindset to new perspectives.
(33:29):
Is someone telling you you knowwhat bad idea or a great idea
or whatever?
Here's additional informationto help make that decision.
It's like saying, okay, ego,I'm going to put you aside,
pride, I'm going to put youaside.
I'm going to go ask someonewhat they think.
Jessica (33:42):
You have a quote that you have in the book.
Is it Ram Dass?
Douglas (33:46):
Ram Dass yeah.
Jessica (33:47):
Perfected beings rest in emptiness.
Out of this restful place comesthe optimum response to any
life situation.
I loved this quote so much.
I speak a lot in my human designwork about the process of
creativity and creativitythrough the lens of human design
.
It's like a pulse, like it goeson and off and there's periods
(34:07):
of creativity and then there'speriods where we're sort of
sitting in the emptiness and thenothingness and a lot of people
get very scared of that stateof being.
They think they need to fix it.
What's wrong with me?
They kind of fall intomelancholy and I often talk
about how important that is tothe creative process, that it's
actually in the nothingness yoursystem is recharging.
But also in that nothingness iswhere creativity can happen.
(34:31):
It's like that's where all thepotential exists.
Our minds don't understand it,so our minds freak out and go
what's wrong?
How do I fix this?
How do I find a solution forthis?
We were to just rest in theemptiness.
Eventually a solution comes.
Eventually a creative idea willshow up.
So I loved that quote.
I also just think it goes backto what you were talking about,
(34:52):
that state of being, themountain.
You can be in that state ofstillness and embodied in
yourself, centered in yourself,that you will have the most
authentic response to anysituation that may arise, and to
not fear sitting in that space.
I'm just interested how youhave incorporated this
(35:13):
philosophy in how you approachyour life.
Douglas (35:16):
Well, you know, first of all, boy, you just are so
beautifully articulate.
I mean, you said that sowonderfully.
I wouldn't even attempt to eventry to improve on that.
That was beautiful.
I know what.
Jessica (35:26):
I said I can guess myself too.
I love that.
You said that I don't know ifany of that was English.
Douglas (35:33):
That was beautiful.
You know, one of the newphrases I'm learning is I think
it's from Jack Kornfeld, who'sin Northern California at the
Spirit Center it's don't worry,everything is out of your
control.
So it's another way of sayingfreedom's just another word for
nothing left to lose, and that'skind of that emptiness is like.
(35:56):
In fact, we don't even have tonecessarily do anything.
We're constantly moving towardsdoing, doing, doing.
And this is both my challengeand also kind of what's helping
me is trying to find and workingtowards that space of not doing
.
And there seems to be.
I mean, it's a little bit of aparadox, because you want to
have goals and intentions andthings to move forward, but at
(36:17):
the same time you want to dothat without stress.
So it's a little bit of likepassive activeness.
I've forgotten the exactquestion, but I'll just say that
in finding that center and inworking with folks and I've just
been so lucky to find someamazing teachers, healers,
philosophers to work with thathave been working in tandem with
(36:40):
me and advising me on how tomove through this empty space,
how to create that empty spaceand move through it, but I'll
say, the most difficult space,and this is why you need people
who support you is to be in thatparadox, to stay in that space.
It's very uncomfortable most ofthe time for people to be in
that open, empty space.
(37:01):
That's why there's so manypeople helping others to get it
done.
I think that's where I've beenworking and where I've been
making the most change, even ifit's a little, you know,
cornflake of a change you knowit's like where that crack is
opening is to be able to sit inthat empty space a little bit
longer and allow it to let it be.
(37:23):
I think that's what Ram Dasswas talking about and that's why
I included.
It is allowing that space to befeeling supported, to be in
that space like it's okay to notknow Perfection will arise out
of that.
Jessica (37:35):
It's okay to not know.
Douglas (37:36):
Yeah.
Jessica (37:36):
Yeah, my takeaway.
There's so many takeaways fromtoday, but I really am struck by
how to be a leader or, in ourcase, when we talk about being a
rebel or just being anauthentic being in the world,
how it is synonymous withuncertainty, with fear, sitting
(37:59):
in the unknown, having toconstantly shift perspectives
and be flexibly minded in yourapproach to life, to be brave
enough to be different, tolisten to your own intuition,
even if it doesn't make sense toother people.
Exactly Okay.
So trust yourself enough totake up space and show up, even
(38:25):
in that fear, even in thatdiscomfort.
That's, I think.
What I'm saying is that it'ssynonymous with discomfort.
It's synonymous the right word.
Sometimes I use words wrong.
Okay, it's okay.
Douglas (38:35):
Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying there's
discomfort in there.
You're speaking to the processof life in a certain way.
We have discomfort, we can getsick, we can be confused, we can
be worried.
That's all discomfort.
There's so many ways of workingwith that, but a lot of it to
(38:56):
me is allowing it to let it beokay.
Going back to that phrase thereis discomfort here there's
discomfort.
I can allow that discomfort tobe and with different kinds of
techniques, different kinds ofbody scans and stuff, actually
you can realize that thatdiscomfort.
There's ways of allowing it tonot take over your entire
mindset, process, body set,experience, and say part of that
(39:19):
is to say, okay, I'm gonna saywhat does my knee feel like
right now?
What does my arm feel like?
Okay, the discomfort is stillthere, but you forgot about it
for a second, helping you to bein the world with it.
Jessica (39:29):
I think discomfort is a signal that you are doing
something you've never donebefore, or you're stretching
yourself, or you're going down apath that maybe doesn't have a
map or a guidebook.
All of those things are goodthings.
It's like if our brain doesn'trecognize where we're going, it
freaks out and it's gonna makeus uncomfortable.
(39:50):
But to actually forge a newpath in the world, it's just
gonna feel weird because it'sgonna be new.
And so to get comfortable withthat discomfort and to recognize
it as and fear as well as asign of I'm actually moving in
the right direction.
Douglas (40:04):
Yeah, they're all teachers, right.
I mean, fear is a teacherdiscomfort is a teacher,
Sometimes it's hard to find thelessons when you're
uncomfortable and when you'refearful.
But finding that open space is,if it's about decision making,
finding that open space is thatcreative space, staying there
and the more you can stay there.
(40:24):
So I mean like if there's atrain coming after you have to
figure out how to get out of itsway, you're not gonna sit
around, yeah, so I don't want totell people to like take some
kind of crazy risk just becauseI said you don't do it.
Yeah, that's not what we mean.
Jessica (40:36):
Different kind of discomfort.
So discomfort of showing up ina space that you're feeling
called to show up in but haveimposter syndrome, you know.
Or have discomfort aroundmoving in a direction even
though you know it's authenticfor you, but it feels new and
scary because no one's ever doneit before.
Douglas (40:52):
Well, yeah, exactly, and you've said it well.
Can I just go back to the NeilArmstrong thing for a second?
Is in that moment when he didthat?
If you listen to the recordingsthey're all on the nasagov site
.
He sounds so calm it's like, oh, kind of, I'm doing this, roger
, okay, I'm doing that, roger.
I mean, they're, you know,deeply trained to do that.
His heart rate doubled.
(41:13):
So internally he's feeling that, but his actions are expressed
in a certain way because he'shighly trained.
So that's where, like, youbring your skills to that space.
He had that open space, he madethat decision in that open
space, but he was able to openit and close it very quickly
because of the situation, theemergency, his skillset, his
(41:35):
values.
I mean he was in touch with allthose things.
And the more you work with allthose and he willing to change
them, to change the playbook orto say that value is not working
for him anymore, that's a bias.
Maybe I need to change, theopen to changing, transforming.
Then you're really enteringthat space where, like, all
possibilities can be.
Jessica (41:54):
Yes, oh, I love that.
I'm going to end on that,because that's perfect.
The space where allpossibilities can be, that is
what I think that space ofemptiness is.
So thank you, thank you so muchfor sharing so much today and
your vulnerability.
I really appreciate all of yourinsight and expertise and
(42:16):
wisdom that you were willing tobe so generous with.
Douglas (42:19):
Thank you and me to you .
I appreciate your thoughtprocess, your openness, the way
you word things, I mean yourintentions, just all so
beautiful.
I mean it's just a pleasure tohave had this time with you.
Jessica (42:30):
Oh, I so appreciate that.
Thank you and I look forward tothe next book.
But Forge you can find Forge onAmazoncom.
It's Forge Practices of GreatLeaders and Volatile Times.
Douglas (42:42):
The Audiblecom book is coming out next week, the
Audible version of it, so youwon't listen too much.
Jessica (42:48):
Yes, so listen to it in your car.
I just have to say that as Iread it, I was like, yes, these
are practices that every leader,every human being can
incorporate into their lives tofind more expansiveness and
authenticity and purpose, and Ireally appreciate what you do.
So thank you so much.
Douglas (43:07):
Thanks, Jessica.
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