September 8, 2023 • 46 mins
In a world where conformity reigns supreme, how can we harness our inner rebel to make lasting change? We sit down with the dynamic Fabienne Jacquet, a scientist, innovator, and author, with a flair for challenging the status quo. As the founder of Founder and CEO of Innoveve, and author of Venus Genius: The Feminine Prescription for Innovation, Fabienne provides us with a new paradigm for redefining innovation by harmonizing both feminine and masculine energies to achieve groundbreaking results (wait... is she innovating innvovation?!)
This episode is a deep dive into the intersection of rebellion and innovation and the transformative power of feminine energy. We explore how to foster environments that allow us rebels to thrive, uncover our untapped potential, and be empowered to make a difference. Fabienne emphasizes the significance of qualities like empathy, nurturing, and collaboration in the innovation process, and how giving these traits the patience to develop can transform the world around us. We also talk about how to embrace our authentic self in a world saturated with algorithms, fostering self-respect, and why we need to listen to our bodies.
Whether you are looking to spark more joy and creativity in your work or personal life, this episode is packed with valuable wisdom. Through her captivating stories and thought-provoking ideas, Fabienne illustrates that true innovation is not just about breaking the mold but doing so authentically, intuitively, and with purpose. This episode is an essential listen for anyone yearning to break free from the status quo and make a lasting impact on the world.
Topics in this episode:
- How Innovation Thrives on Disobedience
- Harmonizing Masculine and Feminine Energies in the Creative Process
- The Untold Power of Feminine Wisdom in Innovation
- Why Empathy and Nurturing are Game-Changers
- Creating Spaces Where Unconventionality Flourishes
- How Authenticity Smashes the Status Quo
- Finding Authenticity in a Digital World
- Building Self-Respect While Shaking Up the System
- Why Listening to Our Bodies is a Revolutionary Act
- Joy as Fuel: Igniting the Creative Spark for World-Changing Ideas
If you loved today’s episode, please leave a review and share your favorite takeaways by screenshotting this episode and tagging us on Instagram! We also have a free monthly community call on the first Wednesday of every month, join here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melissa (00:02):
To even question what you've been told is true is
incredibly courageous.
Fabienne (00:07):
It doesn't always feel like courage.
What looks like courage toother people, for me it feels
like survival.
This is our personal medicine.
Melissa (00:15):
If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion,
by integrity, then I really dothink that I know who I am.
There is a piece that isindescribable when you're being
who you are and you're livingyour purpose.
I'm going to come to the end ofmy life and be like I didn't
live the life I was meant tolive.
Jessica (00:31):
Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and so
comfortable in that uncertaintythat every version of it is
going to be okay?
Melissa (00:39):
This is the Inner Rebel podcast.
Jessica (00:51):
Welcome Rebels.
We have Fabienne Jacquet, whois an accomplished scientist,
innovator and author andself-described natural-born
rebel.
She holds a PhD in organicchemistry and is the founder of
Innoviv, an innovationconsultancy with a unique
mission to help individuals andorganizations recognize and
value the transformative powerof feminine energy and
(01:13):
innovation.
Her book Venus Genius theFeminine Prescription for
Innovation Fabienne shares herinsights and expertise to help
us innovate for growth andcelebrates the duality of the
feminine and masculine in allhuman beings.
She dares us to activate bothenergies to create innovation
that brings true value to ourworld.
Fabienne is also creating avideo course called Smart Rebel
(01:37):
how perfect that is, aimed athelping young people identify
traits associated withinnovation and become strong
change makers and leaders.
So we are so excited to haveyou here, fabienne.
Thank you for joining us, thankyou for inviting me and hi.
Melissa (01:52):
Melissa, hi, yes, I know I'm so excited, and the
more I dug into who you are, themore I was.
Yes, I love conversations thattalk about bringing in the
feminine, so I'm really excitedto learn from you and learn more
about who you are not justabout the work you've done,
obviously, but who you are as aperson.
So we're really grateful foryou being here and bringing your
(02:12):
innate rebel spirit.
Jessica (02:14):
We are going to dive in to talk about your book and
your work.
We're very excited.
We have a lot of questions foryou, but we also want to know a
little bit about you as a humanbeing, uh-oh.
Melissa (02:26):
We don't spend any time on the surface here, we just
jump in the deep end right offthe get go.
Jessica (02:32):
In many places as I was researching you.
I love that you describeyourself as a rebel over and
over, so we normally start ourpodcast with each guest asking a
question that you can interpretor answer any way that you like
.
The question is who are you,and how is that different from
who you thought or were told orwere expected to be?
Fabienne (02:55):
Wow, two parts.
First of all, thank you so muchfor having me here.
I'm really, really excitedabout the opportunity.
When our common friendconnected us, I was like, yes,
inner rebel, and I always loveto share my passion.
I have no kids, so I love alsoto live a little bit of legacy
to the young generation.
You know who am I?
(03:16):
I think I'm when I say I'm arebel is that I never settled
for static quo.
I was a kid, I was very, veryyoung and already I was
challenging the way things were.
As you can imagine, I alreadyhad this scientific mind and I
was asking why and why, and whyand why and why?
And we didn't have internet atthat time to answer all the
(03:37):
questions.
Melissa (03:37):
Just the encyclopedia Britannica on the shelf.
Fabienne (03:42):
I remember my PhD going into the library and all
these huge chemical abstractsand going through all the pages,
and so it was a little bittough.
The only thing good about goingto the library is that I could
meet cute boys.
It's such a good tab, good tab,the old-fashioned library.
But yeah, I believe that we canalways make things better.
(04:06):
And the second part that isintriguing to me because I never
planned anything in my lifesaying I will be this or this or
that.
I had dreams, like everybody,but I think I let events guide
me and I had these intuitions,like I was young, like five, six
years old, something like thatand my parents from the second
(04:28):
world war were fascinated by theAmericans, of course, americans
who liberated France and so on,and I heard all that on my
childhood and one day I said Iwill go to America when I will
be a grown up.
Everybody loved I went to theplane.
We never traveled outsideFrance.
I said, yeah, sure, I knew it.
I knew that I would do it.
And the more people say youknow it's just a dream, I say,
(04:49):
haha, you will see, I will showyou.
So I react nicely toprovocation.
You cannot do something that Iwill, my kind of woman.
I broke a lot of bones in mybody because my younger brother,
you are not able to do that.
I say, oh, I will show you.
And of course I fell and broke,that's okay.
So this is what I call therebellion.
(05:10):
Yes, so I had the intuitionsand then I followed the path.
I didn't plan to be a scientist.
It happened that at that time,when you were good at school,
you were automatically into thescience and math.
Although I loved Latin, I lovethe languages and I always said
I want to be a translator or anarchitect.
Why did I become a chemist?
(05:31):
Because I met a professor inchemistry who was so passionate
about what she was doing.
She gave me that virus ofchemistry and then became a
chemist.
And then I said okay, I want toenter the work life.
Somebody approached me and saidyou're good at analyzing things
, why don't you do research?
I said I will do research.
So you see, I prepare myselffor all the opportunities that
(05:54):
came into my life and I madethose opportunities mine, if in
the best sense.
Melissa (05:59):
I actually have to jump in because I'm wondering if you
read the book Lessons inChemistry and you probably get
asked this no, you're like areal world, elizabeth Zott oh my
gosh, lessons in Chemistry.
It's a very it's like a topselling book.
Oh my gosh, it's by BonnieGarmes, j-a-r-m-u-s.
Thank you.
And it's literally about awoman in chemistry who defies
(06:22):
these masculine roles and breaksout of these traditional gender
profiles in the industry you'rein.
You'll probably appreciate it.
Jessica (06:30):
I'm curious to hear about you.
Know you were this little kidwith this rebel spirit.
Do you think that that camenaturally?
Were you just born that way, ordid you have examples at that
time in your life of people whowere challenging the status quo?
Fabienne (06:46):
I think it was a combination of both.
I think I was born like thatbecause I have a younger brother
and we had the same education,but I was always very bold, like
he was quiet and he was verynice.
He always behaved.
I was always the one runningall around the place.
I remember my dad saying I wasin between two brothers and he
said I have one daughter and twosons.
(07:08):
I don't know what the daughteris, she is like climbing the
trees and going to the otherside of the world having this
big motorcycle.
So I think it was in my nature.
I was really born like that andalso people were irreverent.
I remember in the movies I lovedwhen you had somebody
transgressing a little bit.
And then I was lucky enoughthat my parents were fantastic,
(07:31):
because it's a long time ago andthe education at that time was
more gendered.
It's still gendered, but it wasvery gendered and my parents
were not like that.
My parents were whatever youwant to do.
I never liked baby dolls.
I just wanted to doconstruction and I wanted to
play with the little cars andthe trucks and I wanted to climb
(07:51):
trees and my parents said youknow, if it's what she wants to
do.
I love teddy bears.
I had my teddy bears.
Of course, I had to cuddle withsomething and then, when my
younger brother says, oh, I wanta baby doll, like Fabian, he
had a baby doll.
Okay, he didn't really play withit, but I think I benefited
from this very smart and lovingeducation.
We didn't have money at home,but we had values, joy and I had
(08:13):
freedom.
I said it in my book in thededication I really thank my
parents for having allowed me tobe who I was, even if they
always didn't approve, and thisis, I think, the gift I had.
So you combine this permissionwith boundaries, which is very
(08:34):
good.
So I had permission to be who Iwas, with boundaries plus my
innate personality, and this ishow I was born and raised and I
just evolved in the world and itworked for me and I was happy.
I was a happy camper.
Okay, we will talk about that.
Some people try to kill thatbecause it bothers people when
(08:54):
you are different, doesn't?
Jessica (08:55):
it.
I do want to talk about that.
I do want to talk about that.
How have you been able to staytrue to yourself in those
moments where someone has triedto squash it?
Fabienne (09:07):
Okay, I think it's not glorious or good, but I read
very well a provocation.
I wanted to have a motorcycle.
Of course I was a scientist, Iwas only with guys and I loved
the idea of having a motorcycle.
So in France at that time youhad three types of licenses A1,
(09:27):
2 and 3.
The first one was formotorcycle up to 125cc, then
250cc and then above 500cc.
So I arrived there and the guysaid, okay, so I guess this is
for the A1,.
I said no, a3.
He looked at me and said yeah,a3.
And so I started to takelessons.
The trainer he was fantastic.
I was the only girl and hereally was very nice, sort of
(09:50):
protective, because the guyswere not really nice with me.
And in the test you have a slowdriving and you have also the
speed one, and for the speed wewere training and what we were
doing with the stopwatch, wewere taking the time for the
person and they take your owntime.
So I monitor the time of a guywho did the circuit and he gives
(10:12):
me the stopwatch for him tomonitor my time.
So ready to go.
He looks at me and says isthere a special time for girls?
Oh my God.
I look at him and I say, justlook at those stopwatch.
And I almost killed myself.
I gave it all I had in my guessand the trainer just arrived.
(10:33):
He looked at the stopwatch andhe said oh my God, what a time.
How did you do that?
I said I skimmed.
The guy was leaving it, butthis is how I know what.
I just want to be who I am andshow you what I can do.
Why are you always don't trainme because I'm a girl?
It's not fair.
(10:54):
So I think this question offairness has always been in
queen with me.
You have to be fair and let medo what I can do best, because
we all have our unique gift tobring to this world.
We all have that.
Let me express myself.
I don't hurt anybody.
I just want to bring something.
Melissa (11:11):
Oh, I love it so much.
It's the same spirit youexpressed earlier of the oh,
tell me, I can't watch me do itright, but I love when you speak
to your childhood and the wayin which your parents nurtured
your unique spirit.
It was and you speak to this inthe book about having safety,
feeling safe to be yourself,feeling safe to break out of the
(11:32):
status quo, and that'ssomething that I personally
found as a huge theme in my lifethe last few years, as I've
been doing a lot of inner workis giving people a place to feel
safe to be themselves in theseintimate environments, because
the world doesn't support it asa whole.
So I'm curious you obviouslyhad that growing up, but I would
say it's still as it's hard,but it's easier when you've been
(11:56):
taught that.
So what do you say to peoplewho maybe didn't have that
safety to be themselves and tobe so bold in their
self-expression like you have?
How do they bring that forward?
Fabienne (12:05):
It's tough to tell them because they just want to
be themselves.
In the chapter aboutcollaboration, I talk about how
innovators are, by definition,rebels because we challenge the
status quo.
An innovator is that doesn'tsay okay, that's good, no, how
can I make that better?
So we are rebels by definitionand rebels thrive, but they have
(12:26):
to be able to feel safe becausethey will not express
themselves, and especially whenyou're introverted.
So I'm trying to createenvironments around people that
help them express themselves indifferent ways.
So any environment trying tocreate something, lower the
pressure, lower the noise,because there's so much noise
(12:48):
around us and say listen to yourbody.
And we don't listen to ourbodies enough.
Yeah, and they tell us we're sosmart with our bodies, but we
don't listen to them.
I tell a lot of people justquiet noise around, and
especially to the young girls,the teenagers don't look at
Instagram and TikTok all thetime.
(13:10):
It's not reality, it doesn'tgive you a fair representation
of what the world is and whatyou should be, because you are
your unique self.
You are a treasure on thisearth and you have to bring it,
but not by mimicking.
It's really by discovering whoyou are, and this takes some
peace, and I know that teenageyears are very turbulent years I
(13:33):
went through that or so butit's also the time that you are
building your future self.
It's huge.
This is precious time.
Don't waste it to an algorithm.
And it's not from me, thisquote, actually, but I love it
because, yeah, don't waste youryouth to an algorithm.
Just make sure that you thinkmore by yourself, you
concentrate on you and surroundyourself with people who want to
(13:56):
play with you, respect you andwhom you love.
And no, it's not easy.
How many times was I confrontedto people I didn't want to be
with and I don't want to workwith, because I did not respect
them and they didn't allow me tobe myself?
Somebody told me oh, you smiletoo much.
You laugh too much, doesn'tlook upright, doesn't look
serious.
It was terrible.
(14:17):
And this was when my husbandwas going through cancer and I
had lost my mom in France, andso on, and I was still, you know
, holding it at work and I wastold that I was laughing too
much.
It was terrible.
So ignore that.
They don't know what they'retalking about.
You are who you are.
There is a good reason for that.
Start the noise around, focuson yourself and see what you
(14:38):
bring to people.
And for me, I bring joy, Ibring lightness to people.
This is who I am.
That's fine.
Jessica (14:44):
This is a gift.
The lesson I'm taking is Payattention to who you surround
yourself with, pay attention toyour environment and pay
attention to what you'reconsuming, and do those things
make you feel safe and upliftedand seen and give you permission
to show up fully as yourselves.
And if they don't, then youstart to question that.
Fabienne (15:04):
Thank you for you know .
Summarizing a few words, it'snot, no, that's.
Jessica (15:12):
I just think it's a really important lesson, because
when we aren't born into thoseenvironments, I think many of us
can feel very disempowered andnot realize how we are actually
capable of turning that around.
But so much of what you'resharing.
It sounds like to you yourrebellion is just the fight to
be who you are and to take upspace in the world, and it's so
(15:35):
interesting that we then callthat rebellion right.
Why don't we all just have thatspace and permission to be
ourselves?
We shouldn't have to fight forthat and that we give these
labels to people who are askingquestions and Pushing against
the grain and going, oh, you'reso rebellious, but really we're
all just Needing to be far moreallowing.
(15:57):
Create, you know, a world ofpermission for us to be more
authentic.
Melissa (16:02):
I mean, then we wouldn't be able to have this
podcast, if it was just what wedo with our time, if we were
fighting for this all the time.
Jessica (16:11):
So you have a quote.
You have a quote that I love.
In the book you say peoplepigeonhole creativity as
belonging to a single individualor group of geniuses.
They don't realize that everyhuman has this incredible
capacity to imagine and tochange things.
And that was Augustine Fuentes,and I love that Because that is
what we're here to talk about.
(16:33):
You know, the question of thispodcast really is how do we
unlock that capacity In each andevery one of us, and that's
something that you go into inyour book.
So we have a sense of who youare and I understand now why
Innovation is so important toyou and and the kind of
personality that might get intothis line of work.
But how would you defineinnovation?
Fabienne (16:55):
This big black box and I don't know if you had the
curiosity to google innovationdefinition, but you have like
one billion definition and it isvery intimidating.
So what I found out?
Actually it was interesting.
When I moved out of thecorporate world and more towers,
the, the small businesses, theentrepreneurs and sun, I
discovered that Innovation wasscary, it was very intimidating
(17:20):
and that they thought thatinnovation was just for big
companies, big guys with a lotof money, a lot of resources and
so on.
And one of my first missionshas been to demystify innovation
, to make people understand whatall innovators and I played
around with a lot of definitionsand I the definition I'm not
(17:42):
even sure is for me, but this issomething I adopted oh, let's
put it this way is something newthat creates value.
And I give the example.
When you think innovation, wethink roughly okay, it's a new
product, it's a new beauty cream, it's a new, but it can be a
service.
Like I say, the first take outwas, you know, innovative at
(18:04):
that time.
It can be a process, like aHenry Ford first assembly line.
It was very new at that time.
So you have an entire array ofinnovation and the latest is
really more business, innovation, business model Like the
platform of rbnb or uber.
But again, people think are new.
I have to change the world.
Nope, nope, it's new and thatcreates value, and value is the
(18:30):
most important word.
So I was giving my speech in asmall workshop with
entrepreneurs and a week later alady called me and said oh,
fabian, I applied your formulaof something new that creates
value.
She had her hair salon.
Okay, I had this new taglineand I put it on my window and I
got new clients.
As I see, something with thetagline it's not, you know,
(18:52):
earth shattering, but it's new,because it was new to you and to
your business and it createdvalue, because you have more
customers and people are happy,because they have the style they
want and so, you see, so it canbe anything.
It doesn't need to be.
As I say, when somebody createdthe vaccine concept, or it
changed the world, it was huge,fine, it's an innovation.
(19:13):
But this tagline was alsoinnovation.
So let's not reserve to theelite.
Let's say innovation is everyday, and if we innovate every
single step of our life, everyday, life will be better and
value.
So value, value.
I think this quote is from mewhen I say that value is lack.
Of beauty is in the eye of thebeholder.
(19:35):
And I give the example of ayoung entrepreneur created a
rock climbing training and yousay, well, yeah, it's not really
innovation.
Now If I tell you that thisrock climbing training is
especially for abused women,women who have been beaten, and
that the exercises Are designedfor them to require the self
(19:59):
confidence and the self respect,wow, suddenly it's different
because it's something a rockclimbing training.
It's new because it didn'texist for that target
specifically.
That brings value.
Of course, it brings money tothe entrepreneur, but the
biggest value is that, basically, you are giving back these
women's their life and this isthe value.
(20:20):
So the value can be anything.
It can be very tangible and itcan be emotional.
80 percent of the decisionmaking is made from emotions Is
proven scientifically.
Why do we buy apple and notanother computer?
It's not that it's reallybetter, it's apple, no,
seriously.
So it's, it's really veryimportant.
So the value is not only money,it's not really the bottom line
(20:41):
, and this is why you know mychemical formula for successful
feminine innovation.
But it's based on that.
The value comes from theemotion if people connect they
will bring value.
Jessica (20:52):
How often do you think someone has an innovative idea
that they shut down?
Fabienne (20:57):
It's all the time, it's every day, it's every day.
Human beings don't like changes, and I'm included there.
Okay, I mean a bit of atransition moving from New
Jersey to South Carolina and soon, and it's destabilizing.
And we like stability, we likeour rules, we like to be settled
and so on.
We don't really like the change, we are not comfortable with it
, but this is how we learn, thisis when we are challenged, this
(21:21):
is when we are innovative andwe can be innovative all the
time, but we're shut downbecause people don't like to
stand out, they like to like theothers, and especially the
young generation with all thesocial media, where you have to
be this way, you have to lookthis way, you have to.
Well, no, sorry.
Melissa (21:37):
Well, one thing interesting that was jumping out
as me, as you're sharing aboutinnovation, is Something new
that creates value.
So my business is called theripple connection and at its
foundation, I believe that thething that makes us valuable is
actually just being ourselves,and I used to think that, to
your point, I have to dosomething to change the world.
I need to, like, cure poverty ina third world country or
(21:59):
something like that, and whatI'm hearing and feeling in my
lived experience is that thesomething new Is you actually
choosing to do life and businessin a way that really honors
your authentic journey, andoftentimes, when we can use our
struggle so maybe the personthat created that climbing
(22:19):
program was a domestic abusesurvivor and they took their
struggle and they made it theirgift and they use that to pay it
forward in service Like it'snot that simple, but it is that
simple of Of being innovative isjust allowing you to do your
life in your way right, which iswhat you're talking about, this
whole innate rebellion, andinside of that is, I think, so
often we think we have to proveour value Like that.
(22:42):
Our value is somehow earned orit exists in achievement, and
I'm curious what your thoughtsare on that of how is value
assigned, and is it somethingthat you have to earn?
Fabienne (22:54):
value is like success.
People want to measure and andsometimes it's intangible.
And this is again the masculineand the feminine.
The masculine is aboutperformance measurements and so
on.
It doesn't fit innovation,because Sometimes the value you
bring is totally intangible.
I remember when I retired fromColgate-Palmardier after 28
(23:17):
years, I had a party and wecelebrated the value had brought
to the company and so thebottom line for sure, the
products on Anjwelawa.
But at one point I had a veryyoung scientist.
She was very shy and verydiscreet and sad and she jumped
into my arms and started to cry.
I said thank you, thank youbecause you have shown me that I
(23:38):
could be myself and still besuccessful in the corporation.
I never realized the impact Ihad.
So this to me all my years,this is the biggest value that
I've brought to this company.
To me, hmm, permission to beyourself.
Yeah, so this is what I say.
How do you define value?
And some people may say, ohyeah, this person brought so
many millions and I say you'refine, fine for them, good for
(24:00):
them.
But this value I brought tothis specific person, it's huge.
So this is my definition.
So you have to find your owndefinition of value as the
definition of success.
Melissa (24:10):
What's a more feminine definition?
Right?
The masculine is the measurable, the quantitative, that's the
more masculine side of things.
And then how you left peoplefeeling.
Fabienne (24:18):
Yeah, and again, we need both.
I don't say and this is, I hopeit comes through in the book
and in my speeches I love men,men are allies and I just met
for a project this fall I metwith an artist for collaboration
and we're brainstorming and soon.
I got one point.
I said I have more masculine inme than you have in you, and
it's true, he has a lot offeminine side.
(24:39):
So, as I say, we were on thespectrum.
We're all somewhere between themasculine and the feminine From
where we are, our brains, butmore our education, our bringing
, our environment.
So we're all unique there.
We're just to bring what wehave instead of trying to shut
it down.
Jessica (24:55):
So you talk about successful innovation comes from
utilizing or balancing both ofthese energies, these masculine
and feminine energies.
So can you help our listenersunderstand this concept of
masculine and feminine energyand how they can empower us and
how we can integrate thesedifferent aspects of ourselves,
regardless of what our genderidentity is?
(25:16):
Ok, so innovation.
Fabienne (25:19):
Now I will play the teacher.
But innovation, when youinnovate something, you start
from nothing and you arrive to asolution that is commercialized
.
Usually this is the entireprocess of innovation.
So what you do?
Let's say, I want to create anew shoe for women.
So you will first try tounderstand what are women's
(25:40):
needs these days, what is theconsumer needs?
So it starts with that.
Then you develop differentconcepts and for shoes you will
be different prototypes and thenyou have women try those.
You say, oh, this one I likebecause of this.
You take that, you refine itand then you have a product that
works From there.
You develop that, you work withmanufacturing to make it
commercial, a commercial product.
(26:02):
Usually what we do when we doinnovation and this is driven by
the masculine energy is oh, Ihave an idea, let's jump to
execution.
Yeah, yeah, so it should bethat, that, that OK.
Oh yeah, this color is great,you all love that puff.
And you do a prototype and yougo.
But if you don't spend timewhat I call in the upfront
innovation, so the first part ofinnovation, the discovery part,
(26:24):
that goes from nothing to theprototype, then you have the
prototype to the execution andthe commercial product.
If you don't spend enough timethere, garbage can reach out.
If you don't really understandthe needs of the women, and this
is how we end up with highheels and I have a chapter on
high heels.
High heels like that that, oh,we cannot walk in them.
And then you hear a famousFrench shoe designer who says I
(26:48):
create shoes for women thinkingof men, because they will have
the pleasure of seeing themwalking in them.
What about how we feel Walkingon this thing?
That will break our back and Ithink food surgery is because of
that.
Ok, so, thank you.
So when you listen to women, Iwant to feel, of course,
feminine, elegant, I want tofeel good, but I want to be able
(27:09):
to walk.
I want to be comfortable anddon't have to have another pair
of shoes all the time in mybackpack because I cannot walk
with these shoes.
So this is really understandingreally deeply, with empathy,
what the target wants, and thisrequires what we call the
feminine energy.
Once you have the prototype OK,this I want to bring to market
(27:31):
then it's masculine energy andwe need that, because then we
just dream and nothing happens.
So we need it.
So you take the prototype, youdo the pilot, you have all the
supply chain and so on, and thenyou need this focused,
action-oriented, measurablemasculine energy.
But before, from the beginningto the prototype, you need that
feminine energy.
I hope it's clear.
(27:52):
It is clear.
This is really what is theessence.
We need both, but they have tocome at the right time.
Jessica (27:58):
I do have a question about this because I am curious.
Why do you think we need tocategorize certain traits as
masculine and feminine at all,and is that?
Fabienne (28:10):
I knew this was coming .
Ok, I hope you've been nice,but I knew it was coming.
No, but seriously, I hatelabels and I don't like to put
labels in front.
So, yes, masculine, feminine,why?
So I did a lot of research whatis feminine, what is masculine,
what makes us masculine orfeminine?
And I developed that, yes, youhave some things about the brain
, it's more the environment.
(28:30):
But then how to qualify?
At one point somebody told meyeah, I don't like masculine
feminine.
You should say a color like ayellow and purple.
I say yeah, but then you stillput labels.
It doesn't make sense.
So a cat is a cat.
We'll have day and night, we'llhave feminine and we'll have
masculine.
So you can challenge that, butthey are there and it's proven
(28:52):
for some of them, likecollaboration or empathy, that
we have more than the guys, dueto the brain and also the
upbringing and so on.
So we can discuss, say no, Idon't agree with that.
This is not masculine orfeminine, but we have to settle.
Jessica (29:08):
I'm not trying to argue , I'm just curious, because I
just wonder.
Fabienne (29:13):
I argued with myself.
I'm a rebel with myself, not me.
I was not comfortable talkingfeminine and masculine.
I was not, because he wasputting labels.
But then I found this book fromRashid Soja and Nili Mabad.
I have the pleasure tointerview them also and we call
it Shakti leadership and we canput it in the reference for the
audience and they talk aboutthat and I took this feminine
(29:35):
and masculine for their polaritymap because I thought it made
sense to me.
But again, yes, I agree that wecan argue.
Jessica (29:43):
But it's not an argument.
I'm just curious because we'retalking about living in a world
where we can all have morepermission to be ourselves.
Maybe we wouldn't have to rebelso much right?
So I'm just wondering if, whilelabels are important in
understanding our world to adegree, do you think removing
these labels would allow us tonaturally embrace a wider range
of traits and energies, that wewould be more embracing of all
(30:06):
of these energetic qualities,regardless of the gender we
identify as?
Because I want to know how dowe break free from these boxes,
how do we utilize the fullpotential of that energy that
exists in each of us?
You talk about in the bookstories of being among men who
have such a resistance when youtalk about our feminine
qualities and bringing that intothe workplace, and they have
such a reaction to that.
(30:26):
Do you think that we would havethat reaction if we just
accepted that all of these arebeautiful traits that we can all
embody?
Short on stories, yes, yes.
Fabienne (30:36):
However, like a lot of things, it's about time.
In the conclusion of the book,my first reaction was to call
this book innovation has no sex,no gender, nothing.
But we are not ready for that.
We're just entering genderfluidity.
We're just entering that.
So I'm a scientist.
I have to look at the reality,and the reality of the world is
we're still gendered, we'reevolving, but we still deal with
(30:59):
gendered and this is whatpeople understand now.
So this is an evolution.
But you have an excellent point, it's the evolution, and maybe
it was two years ago I wrotethat book.
Maybe it's already past that,maybe I hope so.
But you're right, these arequalities.
These are qualities.
So the first step is to say,okay, we still call them
masculine and feminine, becausethis is the convention.
(31:21):
The first step is to say we allhave a mix of both worlds, all
on a spectrum, regardless of ifwe were born with female or male
organs or your biological sex,whatever.
We are a mix of that and we canexpress ourselves.
But the next step absolutely isto say we're human beings with
all these qualities and we pickfrom them.
(31:41):
But I think we need totransition if it makes sense.
Jessica (31:44):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, let's talk about thesequalities.
Let's talk about the qualities,these feminine traits that you
encourage us to integrate moreinto our lives in order to
innovate, because these arequalities that I think have been
in many ways dismissed orignored or haven't actually had
a place at the table, and let'stalk through them a little bit.
(32:07):
You talk about the femininesuccess formula, which includes
empathy, nurturing, inclusivity,intuition, gratitude and
collaboration, and what I loveso much about this is that
you're taking these traits thatare often not seen as positives
or strengths, and innovation,and they're actually our
superpowers.
I know that we might not havetime to go through all of them,
(32:30):
but I'm hoping that you cantouch on a couple and why
they're so important.
Fabienne (32:35):
Absolutely.
And again, as a scientist, myapproach was that I listed first
all the qualities for a goodinnovator and then I looked at
those that were to me overlooked, from my experience all these
years, and the ones that had afeminine label.
So, empathy, empathy is morefeminine from the brain, the
(32:56):
oxytocinazone, so it's proven,it's more women.
However, anybody can beempathetic, of course, but
empathy is so critical becausethis is the first step in
innovation understanding theneeds of the person.
You have to put yourself intheir shoes.
Jessica (33:12):
Literal shoes like, not high heels.
Melissa (33:15):
Yeah, flat, comfortable , sexy shoes.
Fabienne (33:19):
We were developing products for senior overall care
.
I had hired a company who hadbuilt a suit that was mimicking
the effects of aging, likearthritis, like you know the
breeze, the vision, everythingwas mimicking how it is to be
older and we needed volunteersto try it and a young marketer.
(33:41):
She was like in her 20s and so,oh yeah, all excited and she
jumps into the suit.
And then she had to perform,you know, brushing her teeth,
going to the store and pick theproducts and then floss, and of
course, with the suit it wasreally mimicking what it is
really At the end.
So she was taking the suit outand it was taking an awful long
time.
We were wondering what she wasdoing and suddenly she turned
(34:04):
around.
She was crying and she said Ifeel so bad, I've been bullying
my grandmothers, but it wasreally physically embracing what
it is to be in the shoes ofanother person.
Each time you want to createsomething new, you have to put
yourself in the shoes in thelife, their environment, what
their dreams are, what theirfears are.
(34:26):
So empathy is absolutelycritical and the good news is
that, yes, it's a little bitmore feminine, but it's more by
education.
As women, we think of everybodyaround us before thinking of us.
But this is in our brain.
Yes, it is, it's proven.
However, the most is educationand upbringing.
So we can change that.
(34:47):
We can definitely change it.
And the second piece of goodnews is the plasticity of our
brain.
We can rewire our brain.
We can learn and acquire anyskill.
Then we can move quicklythrough the others.
Jessica (35:01):
Nurturing I love nurturing.
That was my favorite.
Fabienne (35:06):
That makes sense for you, and it's actually so
interesting one, because it'sextremely difficult to translate
into French when I give thisspeech.
No, it doesn't really translatein any way.
Nurturing is extremelyinteresting and needs to nurture
the small ideas to becomebetter ideas and big ideas.
And nurturing.
When I try to find images formy workshop, I always got images
(35:29):
of women with babies.
I was mad.
I was like what is that?
This nurturing is not reallyfeminine, but it has been
ingrained in our brains that, oh, you are such a nurturing.
No, I am not especiallynurturing.
Jessica (35:43):
I learned that by gardening, but I was not
nurturing at all when I wasyounger, but can we talk about
what that really means inpractice, because I love how you
talk about ideas.
Ideas need nurturing.
We need to give things patienceand space and time to blossom.
How timely is this?
I'm very intentional aboutbringing this up.
Melissa (36:03):
Because we were literally just talking about
that this morning.
The last thing I said to herbefore we jumped on this was I
need to have more patience andshe said yes, we all do,
especially when you're trying toinnovate and you have an idea
and you want to bring it to life.
Fabienne (36:14):
You want to get to the finish line.
This is such an important point.
I spend a lot of time on thatin my video course for teenagers
because this is this immediatereward world and the kids are
even worse than we are, but wewant that.
You order on Amazon and youwant it at your door.
We are used to that now.
But I say innovation takes timeand patience.
(36:34):
And it takes time because ithas to grow and ideas, like a
baby, has to grow.
Most ideas, when they come tolife, they are stupid.
A lot of people loved thebiggest ideas in the world but
then they became big innovation.
So you have to learn how totake your time and I know it's
(36:55):
very difficult and when youthink innovation there is also,
I would say people think, likeall these creative people with
big hair with a room full of binbags and you know, and the
coffee and ha ha ha andeverybody's having fun.
Innovation is blood, sweat andtears.
Innovation is very hard.
It's very tough Because you arechanging the rules, because you
(37:15):
are going into the unknown, youare failing, You're coming back
.
It's very, very tough.
You need to be persistent, butit pays off because the value to
your poor melisa when youarrive at the end and you have
this product or you have thisidea and you have, like, your
new business.
This is beautiful.
But like everything and this iswhat I love still about this
(37:35):
world even if we are goingthrough speed, speed, speed it
still takes nine months to makea baby Okay, I'm sorry and it
still takes time for an idea toup to fruition and see, if you
try to go too quickly, then youcreate something that doesn't
matter and then we are totallyflooded with things we don't
need in our lives.
Let's be honest.
So, when you respect all thisbeautiful feminine traits and
(37:59):
especially nurturing, taking thetime and so on, yes, you spend
time.
At the beginning, you think youwaste time.
You don't.
It's time well spent to createsomething that is sustainable
and that is meaningful.
Jessica (38:11):
Sustainable is such a good word.
Yeah, to create somethinglasting, the roots have to be
strong, and that takes time.
Melissa (38:19):
And before we jump forward, I really want to talk
about the nurturing as itpertains to failure, because so
often what I see because Isupport a lot of women that are
bringing new ideas to the tableand there's such a fear around
getting it right, around ithappening in accordance with a
certain you know and I'm, as I'msaying this a lot, I'm like I
know I do this too, but like ona certain timeline or that it
(38:41):
has to go a certain way, andpeople don't try because what if
it doesn't work right?
And with innovation there's alot of it not working right,
there's a lot of experimentingand nurturing it, and so I just
want to speak to that, becausepart of what I want us to do in
this podcast is give people thecourage to try and try again,
then realize that that is a verynormal, natural part of the
(39:02):
process.
So I just wanted to speak intothat before we move on, because
I think if we can speak morecompassion about the nurturing
side of creation, we will beless fearful of failure.
Jessica (39:15):
Absolutely Well along those lines.
You talk a lot about howinnovation requires that
willingness to embraceuncertainty, to make mistakes,
to be open to the accidents, toexplore the unknown, and I think
many of us are very fearful ofthe unknown and are very
uncomfortable in thatuncertainty.
So maybe along this line, youcan help us reframe why that's
(39:37):
such a good thing, why what wemight normally interpret that
lack of being in control is abad thing, is actually a
strength in this case.
Fabienne (39:45):
What you nurture, things is not like.
And you say control, and it'svery interesting because I
learned that a lot when Igardened and it's true for
educating kids.
But when you garden and yougrow something you cannot
control, you can guide.
You nourish, you guide and youwatch grow.
(40:06):
But I think this is AlexandraFine who created Dame Products
you know, these feminineproducts for sexual pleasure for
women and she said somethingwhich was beautiful in our
interview for the book.
She said that a business islike a kid it grows, it grows
and one day it has its own life.
So you cannot controleverything.
(40:27):
Control is again very masculineenergy.
We cannot control everythingand that's fine, but you can
give the chances to a businessto flourish and this is the
beauty of it.
Like an idea, the idea willgrow and you cross this idea
with another one and, oh youknow, suddenly they have this
life.
I love this quote from this guy.
(40:47):
He was talking about bars andcafes and coffee shops and this
is where innovation happens andit is like in these places ideas
have sex and I love thatbecause it's the idea.
They grew from each other.
This is the jumping through,collaboration, this is the
diversity.
You have all these ideas, theyall come together and suddenly
(41:08):
something happens that is biggerthan what if it's?
Melissa (41:12):
like an orgy.
I love that.
I love that.
Oh my God.
Fabienne (41:16):
Oh my God, oh, she's right.
No, that's all right.
Melissa (41:19):
I'm going to start calling my leadership meetings
like some sort of likeintellectual orgy or something.
Jessica (41:24):
Everything that you've been saying to me just sounds
like what it's like to have achild.
It's like being a parent in allthese different aspects of your
life.
You have to nurture, you haveto guide, but you can't actually
control.
Something is being born thathas a life of its own.
Fabienne (41:40):
Is this exactly?
Melissa (41:41):
that Is this exactly that and it's interesting
because I have a son who'salmost six and what I'm very
present to in this moment isI've been literally wanting to
freeze him in time for like fouryears.
I'm like he's so cute, soperfect.
I don't want him to be olderand bigger and be on his own.
And how different I have feltabout my business and like when
we're talking about watching achild grow and how like I don't
(42:04):
want to rush any part of thisthe infancy and this nurturing
of him becoming his own person,and just what a beautiful
reminder to treat, I mean, allof life like that really.
But when we talk about business, to fall in love with the
process of I was going to saythe idea orgy, but I don't know
(42:26):
that that really works in asentence.
Yeah, but I want to rush that?
Fabienne (42:31):
No, no.
You want to enjoy every step?
Yeah, and the same thing ininnovation enjoy every step.
Every step is fun when youbrainstorm ideas.
This is fun.
I love that part.
I also love when you select theideas.
Oh, this is where intuitioncomes into the picture, by the
way, instead of having all theseanalysis, paralysis and all
(42:53):
these daytime.
So, yeah, fine, you need that,but at the end of the day,
follow your gut feeling, followyour intuition.
You are smart enough andintuition is not.
Oh, I have this idea and I no,no, no, no, no.
Intuition is grounded inscience.
Intuition is actually when youhave enough information in your
brain, you let it settle, andthis is something we don't do.
(43:13):
Sleep shower.
Jessica (43:15):
I love how you talk about do nothing.
Yeah, do it.
How good that is for the brain.
Fabienne (43:21):
And then your brain, in the background, is doing its
beautiful work, and so smart itis doing that, connecting the
dots.
And why is precious?
Because, first, even if we havethe same type of information in
our brain, we all havedifferent ways of connecting the
dots.
And this is why, when we dothat, you have this unique
solution that comes to you.
(43:42):
It's not coming from out there,it's not an alien whispering to
your ears hey, you have to dothat.
It's not that.
It's really in your own brain,gathering all the signals and
giving you one direction.
This is what intuition is, andit's beautiful and you have to
follow that.
So when you have a lot of ideas, oh yeah, you can rank and you
(44:03):
vote.
You always end up in the middle, always something that is
blocked.
You have to dare having ideasthat are different, but at the
end of the day, this is whatwill make the difference in the
world or in your life.
Jessica (44:16):
I love this conversation.
I really do.
Thank you so much.
I feel like my takeaway is, aswe innovate or create in our
lives or in our businesses,wherever we show up in this life
, to approach it with gentleness, with our intuition.
Yeah, I guess the takeaway forme is to do it and embrace the
(44:37):
gentleness of that that we thinkgo out and be a rebel.
It feels like this very intense, explosive energy, but actually
we can do it in a way thathonors ourselves.
We can surround ourselves withpeople who make us feel very
safe and nurtured in order toshow up more as to who we are.
We can take our little ideasand plant them and nurture them
(44:59):
into fruition and collaborateright.
This is what Melissa is so goodat bringing people on board who
really help you bring theseideas to life as well.
So all of this is so valuableand you're so lovely to talk to.
Thank you.
Fabienne (45:13):
I know, I know, but lovely but fun.
Usually this is what I get.
Melissa (45:17):
Fun and lovely.
Well, I love that, I love your.
It's almost a playfulness, right, like you said, a lightness, a
way of bringing joy, andsometimes all the things we're
talking about around creationcan feel so heavy and so intense
and they can feel so like, oh,it's so hard you know and I love
bringing the joy and thelightness to the process,
because, yeah, of course it'sreally hard, but also can we
(45:40):
have fun, can we be playful, canwe bring the joy into it and
find the way to really thrive,live in the process of all of it
, absolutely.
Thanks so much for being here.
Fabienne (45:52):
Yes, thank you, it was a pleasure for you for having
me.
It was a pleasure and I hopethat you know inspires some
people.
Jessica (45:57):
It will, and dare to move in Absolutely, and we
encourage everybody to go andcheck out Fabian's book Venus
Genius the Feminine Prescriptionfor Innovation.
Hey there, rebels.
If you enjoyed this podcast, wewould love your support in a
(46:20):
few quick ways.
You could like, follow orsubscribe on your preferred
platform to help others discoverus too.
You could also leave us areview.
We also have a Facebook groupand you can find us at
facebookcom Slash groups.
Slash in a rebel podcast, andyou can find us on Instagram at
in a rebel podcast.
Your support means everythingto us and we can't wait to
(46:41):
continue this journey together.
To even question what you've been told is true is
incredibly courageous.
Fabienne (00:07):
It doesn't always feel like courage.
What looks like courage toother people, for me it feels
like survival.
This is our personal medicine.
Melissa (00:15):
If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion,
by integrity, then I really dothink that I know who I am.
There is a piece that isindescribable when you're being
who you are and you're livingyour purpose.
I'm going to come to the end ofmy life and be like I didn't
live the life I was meant tolive.
Jessica (00:31):
Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and so
comfortable in that uncertaintythat every version of it is
going to be okay?
Melissa (00:39):
This is the Inner Rebel podcast.
Jessica (00:51):
Welcome Rebels.
We have Fabienne Jacquet, whois an accomplished scientist,
innovator and author andself-described natural-born
rebel.
She holds a PhD in organicchemistry and is the founder of
Innoviv, an innovationconsultancy with a unique
mission to help individuals andorganizations recognize and
value the transformative powerof feminine energy and
(01:13):
innovation.
Her book Venus Genius theFeminine Prescription for
Innovation Fabienne shares herinsights and expertise to help
us innovate for growth andcelebrates the duality of the
feminine and masculine in allhuman beings.
She dares us to activate bothenergies to create innovation
that brings true value to ourworld.
Fabienne is also creating avideo course called Smart Rebel
(01:37):
how perfect that is, aimed athelping young people identify
traits associated withinnovation and become strong
change makers and leaders.
So we are so excited to haveyou here, fabienne.
Thank you for joining us, thankyou for inviting me and hi.
Melissa (01:52):
Melissa, hi, yes, I know I'm so excited, and the
more I dug into who you are, themore I was.
Yes, I love conversations thattalk about bringing in the
feminine, so I'm really excitedto learn from you and learn more
about who you are not justabout the work you've done,
obviously, but who you are as aperson.
So we're really grateful foryou being here and bringing your
(02:12):
innate rebel spirit.
Jessica (02:14):
We are going to dive in to talk about your book and
your work.
We're very excited.
We have a lot of questions foryou, but we also want to know a
little bit about you as a humanbeing, uh-oh.
Melissa (02:26):
We don't spend any time on the surface here, we just
jump in the deep end right offthe get go.
Jessica (02:32):
In many places as I was researching you.
I love that you describeyourself as a rebel over and
over, so we normally start ourpodcast with each guest asking a
question that you can interpretor answer any way that you like
.
The question is who are you,and how is that different from
who you thought or were told orwere expected to be?
Fabienne (02:55):
Wow, two parts.
First of all, thank you so muchfor having me here.
I'm really, really excitedabout the opportunity.
When our common friendconnected us, I was like, yes,
inner rebel, and I always loveto share my passion.
I have no kids, so I love alsoto live a little bit of legacy
to the young generation.
You know who am I?
(03:16):
I think I'm when I say I'm arebel is that I never settled
for static quo.
I was a kid, I was very, veryyoung and already I was
challenging the way things were.
As you can imagine, I alreadyhad this scientific mind and I
was asking why and why, and whyand why and why?
And we didn't have internet atthat time to answer all the
(03:37):
questions.
Melissa (03:37):
Just the encyclopedia Britannica on the shelf.
Fabienne (03:42):
I remember my PhD going into the library and all
these huge chemical abstractsand going through all the pages,
and so it was a little bittough.
The only thing good about goingto the library is that I could
meet cute boys.
It's such a good tab, good tab,the old-fashioned library.
But yeah, I believe that we canalways make things better.
(04:06):
And the second part that isintriguing to me because I never
planned anything in my lifesaying I will be this or this or
that.
I had dreams, like everybody,but I think I let events guide
me and I had these intuitions,like I was young, like five, six
years old, something like thatand my parents from the second
(04:28):
world war were fascinated by theAmericans, of course, americans
who liberated France and so on,and I heard all that on my
childhood and one day I said Iwill go to America when I will
be a grown up.
Everybody loved I went to theplane.
We never traveled outsideFrance.
I said, yeah, sure, I knew it.
I knew that I would do it.
And the more people say youknow it's just a dream, I say,
(04:49):
haha, you will see, I will showyou.
So I react nicely toprovocation.
You cannot do something that Iwill, my kind of woman.
I broke a lot of bones in mybody because my younger brother,
you are not able to do that.
I say, oh, I will show you.
And of course I fell and broke,that's okay.
So this is what I call therebellion.
(05:10):
Yes, so I had the intuitionsand then I followed the path.
I didn't plan to be a scientist.
It happened that at that time,when you were good at school,
you were automatically into thescience and math.
Although I loved Latin, I lovethe languages and I always said
I want to be a translator or anarchitect.
Why did I become a chemist?
(05:31):
Because I met a professor inchemistry who was so passionate
about what she was doing.
She gave me that virus ofchemistry and then became a
chemist.
And then I said okay, I want toenter the work life.
Somebody approached me and saidyou're good at analyzing things
, why don't you do research?
I said I will do research.
So you see, I prepare myselffor all the opportunities that
(05:54):
came into my life and I madethose opportunities mine, if in
the best sense.
Melissa (05:59):
I actually have to jump in because I'm wondering if you
read the book Lessons inChemistry and you probably get
asked this no, you're like areal world, elizabeth Zott oh my
gosh, lessons in Chemistry.
It's a very it's like a topselling book.
Oh my gosh, it's by BonnieGarmes, j-a-r-m-u-s.
Thank you.
And it's literally about awoman in chemistry who defies
(06:22):
these masculine roles and breaksout of these traditional gender
profiles in the industry you'rein.
You'll probably appreciate it.
Jessica (06:30):
I'm curious to hear about you.
Know you were this little kidwith this rebel spirit.
Do you think that that camenaturally?
Were you just born that way, ordid you have examples at that
time in your life of people whowere challenging the status quo?
Fabienne (06:46):
I think it was a combination of both.
I think I was born like thatbecause I have a younger brother
and we had the same education,but I was always very bold, like
he was quiet and he was verynice.
He always behaved.
I was always the one runningall around the place.
I remember my dad saying I wasin between two brothers and he
said I have one daughter and twosons.
(07:08):
I don't know what the daughteris, she is like climbing the
trees and going to the otherside of the world having this
big motorcycle.
So I think it was in my nature.
I was really born like that andalso people were irreverent.
I remember in the movies I lovedwhen you had somebody
transgressing a little bit.
And then I was lucky enoughthat my parents were fantastic,
(07:31):
because it's a long time ago andthe education at that time was
more gendered.
It's still gendered, but it wasvery gendered and my parents
were not like that.
My parents were whatever youwant to do.
I never liked baby dolls.
I just wanted to doconstruction and I wanted to
play with the little cars andthe trucks and I wanted to climb
(07:51):
trees and my parents said youknow, if it's what she wants to
do.
I love teddy bears.
I had my teddy bears.
Of course, I had to cuddle withsomething and then, when my
younger brother says, oh, I wanta baby doll, like Fabian, he
had a baby doll.
Okay, he didn't really play withit, but I think I benefited
from this very smart and lovingeducation.
We didn't have money at home,but we had values, joy and I had
(08:13):
freedom.
I said it in my book in thededication I really thank my
parents for having allowed me tobe who I was, even if they
always didn't approve, and thisis, I think, the gift I had.
So you combine this permissionwith boundaries, which is very
(08:34):
good.
So I had permission to be who Iwas, with boundaries plus my
innate personality, and this ishow I was born and raised and I
just evolved in the world and itworked for me and I was happy.
I was a happy camper.
Okay, we will talk about that.
Some people try to kill thatbecause it bothers people when
(08:54):
you are different, doesn't?
Jessica (08:55):
it.
I do want to talk about that.
I do want to talk about that.
How have you been able to staytrue to yourself in those
moments where someone has triedto squash it?
Fabienne (09:07):
Okay, I think it's not glorious or good, but I read
very well a provocation.
I wanted to have a motorcycle.
Of course I was a scientist, Iwas only with guys and I loved
the idea of having a motorcycle.
So in France at that time youhad three types of licenses A1,
(09:27):
2 and 3.
The first one was formotorcycle up to 125cc, then
250cc and then above 500cc.
So I arrived there and the guysaid, okay, so I guess this is
for the A1,.
I said no, a3.
He looked at me and said yeah,a3.
And so I started to takelessons.
The trainer he was fantastic.
I was the only girl and hereally was very nice, sort of
(09:50):
protective, because the guyswere not really nice with me.
And in the test you have a slowdriving and you have also the
speed one, and for the speed wewere training and what we were
doing with the stopwatch, wewere taking the time for the
person and they take your owntime.
So I monitor the time of a guywho did the circuit and he gives
(10:12):
me the stopwatch for him tomonitor my time.
So ready to go.
He looks at me and says isthere a special time for girls?
Oh my God.
I look at him and I say, justlook at those stopwatch.
And I almost killed myself.
I gave it all I had in my guessand the trainer just arrived.
(10:33):
He looked at the stopwatch andhe said oh my God, what a time.
How did you do that?
I said I skimmed.
The guy was leaving it, butthis is how I know what.
I just want to be who I am andshow you what I can do.
Why are you always don't trainme because I'm a girl?
It's not fair.
(10:54):
So I think this question offairness has always been in
queen with me.
You have to be fair and let medo what I can do best, because
we all have our unique gift tobring to this world.
We all have that.
Let me express myself.
I don't hurt anybody.
I just want to bring something.
Melissa (11:11):
Oh, I love it so much.
It's the same spirit youexpressed earlier of the oh,
tell me, I can't watch me do itright, but I love when you speak
to your childhood and the wayin which your parents nurtured
your unique spirit.
It was and you speak to this inthe book about having safety,
feeling safe to be yourself,feeling safe to break out of the
(11:32):
status quo, and that'ssomething that I personally
found as a huge theme in my lifethe last few years, as I've
been doing a lot of inner workis giving people a place to feel
safe to be themselves in theseintimate environments, because
the world doesn't support it asa whole.
So I'm curious you obviouslyhad that growing up, but I would
say it's still as it's hard,but it's easier when you've been
(11:56):
taught that.
So what do you say to peoplewho maybe didn't have that
safety to be themselves and tobe so bold in their
self-expression like you have?
How do they bring that forward?
Fabienne (12:05):
It's tough to tell them because they just want to
be themselves.
In the chapter aboutcollaboration, I talk about how
innovators are, by definition,rebels because we challenge the
status quo.
An innovator is that doesn'tsay okay, that's good, no, how
can I make that better?
So we are rebels by definitionand rebels thrive, but they have
(12:26):
to be able to feel safe becausethey will not express
themselves, and especially whenyou're introverted.
So I'm trying to createenvironments around people that
help them express themselves indifferent ways.
So any environment trying tocreate something, lower the
pressure, lower the noise,because there's so much noise
(12:48):
around us and say listen to yourbody.
And we don't listen to ourbodies enough.
Yeah, and they tell us we're sosmart with our bodies, but we
don't listen to them.
I tell a lot of people justquiet noise around, and
especially to the young girls,the teenagers don't look at
Instagram and TikTok all thetime.
(13:10):
It's not reality, it doesn'tgive you a fair representation
of what the world is and whatyou should be, because you are
your unique self.
You are a treasure on thisearth and you have to bring it,
but not by mimicking.
It's really by discovering whoyou are, and this takes some
peace, and I know that teenageyears are very turbulent years I
(13:33):
went through that or so butit's also the time that you are
building your future self.
It's huge.
This is precious time.
Don't waste it to an algorithm.
And it's not from me, thisquote, actually, but I love it
because, yeah, don't waste youryouth to an algorithm.
Just make sure that you thinkmore by yourself, you
concentrate on you and surroundyourself with people who want to
(13:56):
play with you, respect you andwhom you love.
And no, it's not easy.
How many times was I confrontedto people I didn't want to be
with and I don't want to workwith, because I did not respect
them and they didn't allow me tobe myself?
Somebody told me oh, you smiletoo much.
You laugh too much, doesn'tlook upright, doesn't look
serious.
It was terrible.
(14:17):
And this was when my husbandwas going through cancer and I
had lost my mom in France, andso on, and I was still, you know
, holding it at work and I wastold that I was laughing too
much.
It was terrible.
So ignore that.
They don't know what they'retalking about.
You are who you are.
There is a good reason for that.
Start the noise around, focuson yourself and see what you
(14:38):
bring to people.
And for me, I bring joy, Ibring lightness to people.
This is who I am.
That's fine.
Jessica (14:44):
This is a gift.
The lesson I'm taking is Payattention to who you surround
yourself with, pay attention toyour environment and pay
attention to what you'reconsuming, and do those things
make you feel safe and upliftedand seen and give you permission
to show up fully as yourselves.
And if they don't, then youstart to question that.
Fabienne (15:04):
Thank you for you know .
Summarizing a few words, it'snot, no, that's.
Jessica (15:12):
I just think it's a really important lesson, because
when we aren't born into thoseenvironments, I think many of us
can feel very disempowered andnot realize how we are actually
capable of turning that around.
But so much of what you'resharing.
It sounds like to you yourrebellion is just the fight to
be who you are and to take upspace in the world, and it's so
(15:35):
interesting that we then callthat rebellion right.
Why don't we all just have thatspace and permission to be
ourselves?
We shouldn't have to fight forthat and that we give these
labels to people who are askingquestions and Pushing against
the grain and going, oh, you'reso rebellious, but really we're
all just Needing to be far moreallowing.
(15:57):
Create, you know, a world ofpermission for us to be more
authentic.
Melissa (16:02):
I mean, then we wouldn't be able to have this
podcast, if it was just what wedo with our time, if we were
fighting for this all the time.
Jessica (16:11):
So you have a quote.
You have a quote that I love.
In the book you say peoplepigeonhole creativity as
belonging to a single individualor group of geniuses.
They don't realize that everyhuman has this incredible
capacity to imagine and tochange things.
And that was Augustine Fuentes,and I love that Because that is
what we're here to talk about.
(16:33):
You know, the question of thispodcast really is how do we
unlock that capacity In each andevery one of us, and that's
something that you go into inyour book.
So we have a sense of who youare and I understand now why
Innovation is so important toyou and and the kind of
personality that might get intothis line of work.
But how would you defineinnovation?
Fabienne (16:55):
This big black box and I don't know if you had the
curiosity to google innovationdefinition, but you have like
one billion definition and it isvery intimidating.
So what I found out?
Actually it was interesting.
When I moved out of thecorporate world and more towers,
the, the small businesses, theentrepreneurs and sun, I
discovered that Innovation wasscary, it was very intimidating
(17:20):
and that they thought thatinnovation was just for big
companies, big guys with a lotof money, a lot of resources and
so on.
And one of my first missionshas been to demystify innovation
, to make people understand whatall innovators and I played
around with a lot of definitionsand I the definition I'm not
(17:42):
even sure is for me, but this issomething I adopted oh, let's
put it this way is something newthat creates value.
And I give the example.
When you think innovation, wethink roughly okay, it's a new
product, it's a new beauty cream, it's a new, but it can be a
service.
Like I say, the first take outwas, you know, innovative at
(18:04):
that time.
It can be a process, like aHenry Ford first assembly line.
It was very new at that time.
So you have an entire array ofinnovation and the latest is
really more business, innovation, business model Like the
platform of rbnb or uber.
But again, people think are new.
I have to change the world.
Nope, nope, it's new and thatcreates value, and value is the
(18:30):
most important word.
So I was giving my speech in asmall workshop with
entrepreneurs and a week later alady called me and said oh,
fabian, I applied your formulaof something new that creates
value.
She had her hair salon.
Okay, I had this new taglineand I put it on my window and I
got new clients.
As I see, something with thetagline it's not, you know,
(18:52):
earth shattering, but it's new,because it was new to you and to
your business and it createdvalue, because you have more
customers and people are happy,because they have the style they
want and so, you see, so it canbe anything.
It doesn't need to be.
As I say, when somebody createdthe vaccine concept, or it
changed the world, it was huge,fine, it's an innovation.
(19:13):
But this tagline was alsoinnovation.
So let's not reserve to theelite.
Let's say innovation is everyday, and if we innovate every
single step of our life, everyday, life will be better and
value.
So value, value.
I think this quote is from mewhen I say that value is lack.
Of beauty is in the eye of thebeholder.
(19:35):
And I give the example of ayoung entrepreneur created a
rock climbing training and yousay, well, yeah, it's not really
innovation.
Now If I tell you that thisrock climbing training is
especially for abused women,women who have been beaten, and
that the exercises Are designedfor them to require the self
(19:59):
confidence and the self respect,wow, suddenly it's different
because it's something a rockclimbing training.
It's new because it didn'texist for that target
specifically.
That brings value.
Of course, it brings money tothe entrepreneur, but the
biggest value is that, basically, you are giving back these
women's their life and this isthe value.
(20:20):
So the value can be anything.
It can be very tangible and itcan be emotional.
80 percent of the decisionmaking is made from emotions Is
proven scientifically.
Why do we buy apple and notanother computer?
It's not that it's reallybetter, it's apple, no,
seriously.
So it's, it's really veryimportant.
So the value is not only money,it's not really the bottom line
(20:41):
, and this is why you know mychemical formula for successful
feminine innovation.
But it's based on that.
The value comes from theemotion if people connect they
will bring value.
Jessica (20:52):
How often do you think someone has an innovative idea
that they shut down?
Fabienne (20:57):
It's all the time, it's every day, it's every day.
Human beings don't like changes, and I'm included there.
Okay, I mean a bit of atransition moving from New
Jersey to South Carolina and soon, and it's destabilizing.
And we like stability, we likeour rules, we like to be settled
and so on.
We don't really like the change, we are not comfortable with it
, but this is how we learn, thisis when we are challenged, this
(21:21):
is when we are innovative andwe can be innovative all the
time, but we're shut downbecause people don't like to
stand out, they like to like theothers, and especially the
young generation with all thesocial media, where you have to
be this way, you have to lookthis way, you have to.
Well, no, sorry.
Melissa (21:37):
Well, one thing interesting that was jumping out
as me, as you're sharing aboutinnovation, is Something new
that creates value.
So my business is called theripple connection and at its
foundation, I believe that thething that makes us valuable is
actually just being ourselves,and I used to think that, to
your point, I have to dosomething to change the world.
I need to, like, cure poverty ina third world country or
(21:59):
something like that, and whatI'm hearing and feeling in my
lived experience is that thesomething new Is you actually
choosing to do life and businessin a way that really honors
your authentic journey, andoftentimes, when we can use our
struggle so maybe the personthat created that climbing
(22:19):
program was a domestic abusesurvivor and they took their
struggle and they made it theirgift and they use that to pay it
forward in service Like it'snot that simple, but it is that
simple of Of being innovative isjust allowing you to do your
life in your way right, which iswhat you're talking about, this
whole innate rebellion, andinside of that is, I think, so
often we think we have to proveour value Like that.
(22:42):
Our value is somehow earned orit exists in achievement, and
I'm curious what your thoughtsare on that of how is value
assigned, and is it somethingthat you have to earn?
Fabienne (22:54):
value is like success.
People want to measure and andsometimes it's intangible.
And this is again the masculineand the feminine.
The masculine is aboutperformance measurements and so
on.
It doesn't fit innovation,because Sometimes the value you
bring is totally intangible.
I remember when I retired fromColgate-Palmardier after 28
(23:17):
years, I had a party and wecelebrated the value had brought
to the company and so thebottom line for sure, the
products on Anjwelawa.
But at one point I had a veryyoung scientist.
She was very shy and verydiscreet and sad and she jumped
into my arms and started to cry.
I said thank you, thank youbecause you have shown me that I
(23:38):
could be myself and still besuccessful in the corporation.
I never realized the impact Ihad.
So this to me all my years,this is the biggest value that
I've brought to this company.
To me, hmm, permission to beyourself.
Yeah, so this is what I say.
How do you define value?
And some people may say, ohyeah, this person brought so
many millions and I say you'refine, fine for them, good for
(24:00):
them.
But this value I brought tothis specific person, it's huge.
So this is my definition.
So you have to find your owndefinition of value as the
definition of success.
Melissa (24:10):
What's a more feminine definition?
Right?
The masculine is the measurable, the quantitative, that's the
more masculine side of things.
And then how you left peoplefeeling.
Fabienne (24:18):
Yeah, and again, we need both.
I don't say and this is, I hopeit comes through in the book
and in my speeches I love men,men are allies and I just met
for a project this fall I metwith an artist for collaboration
and we're brainstorming and soon.
I got one point.
I said I have more masculine inme than you have in you, and
it's true, he has a lot offeminine side.
(24:39):
So, as I say, we were on thespectrum.
We're all somewhere between themasculine and the feminine From
where we are, our brains, butmore our education, our bringing
, our environment.
So we're all unique there.
We're just to bring what wehave instead of trying to shut
it down.
Jessica (24:55):
So you talk about successful innovation comes from
utilizing or balancing both ofthese energies, these masculine
and feminine energies.
So can you help our listenersunderstand this concept of
masculine and feminine energyand how they can empower us and
how we can integrate thesedifferent aspects of ourselves,
regardless of what our genderidentity is?
(25:16):
Ok, so innovation.
Fabienne (25:19):
Now I will play the teacher.
But innovation, when youinnovate something, you start
from nothing and you arrive to asolution that is commercialized
.
Usually this is the entireprocess of innovation.
So what you do?
Let's say, I want to create anew shoe for women.
So you will first try tounderstand what are women's
(25:40):
needs these days, what is theconsumer needs?
So it starts with that.
Then you develop differentconcepts and for shoes you will
be different prototypes and thenyou have women try those.
You say, oh, this one I likebecause of this.
You take that, you refine itand then you have a product that
works From there.
You develop that, you work withmanufacturing to make it
commercial, a commercial product.
(26:02):
Usually what we do when we doinnovation and this is driven by
the masculine energy is oh, Ihave an idea, let's jump to
execution.
Yeah, yeah, so it should bethat, that, that OK.
Oh yeah, this color is great,you all love that puff.
And you do a prototype and yougo.
But if you don't spend timewhat I call in the upfront
innovation, so the first part ofinnovation, the discovery part,
(26:24):
that goes from nothing to theprototype, then you have the
prototype to the execution andthe commercial product.
If you don't spend enough timethere, garbage can reach out.
If you don't really understandthe needs of the women, and this
is how we end up with highheels and I have a chapter on
high heels.
High heels like that that, oh,we cannot walk in them.
And then you hear a famousFrench shoe designer who says I
(26:48):
create shoes for women thinkingof men, because they will have
the pleasure of seeing themwalking in them.
What about how we feel Walkingon this thing?
That will break our back and Ithink food surgery is because of
that.
Ok, so, thank you.
So when you listen to women, Iwant to feel, of course,
feminine, elegant, I want tofeel good, but I want to be able
(27:09):
to walk.
I want to be comfortable anddon't have to have another pair
of shoes all the time in mybackpack because I cannot walk
with these shoes.
So this is really understandingreally deeply, with empathy,
what the target wants, and thisrequires what we call the
feminine energy.
Once you have the prototype OK,this I want to bring to market
(27:31):
then it's masculine energy andwe need that, because then we
just dream and nothing happens.
So we need it.
So you take the prototype, youdo the pilot, you have all the
supply chain and so on, and thenyou need this focused,
action-oriented, measurablemasculine energy.
But before, from the beginningto the prototype, you need that
feminine energy.
I hope it's clear.
(27:52):
It is clear.
This is really what is theessence.
We need both, but they have tocome at the right time.
Jessica (27:58):
I do have a question about this because I am curious.
Why do you think we need tocategorize certain traits as
masculine and feminine at all,and is that?
Fabienne (28:10):
I knew this was coming .
Ok, I hope you've been nice,but I knew it was coming.
No, but seriously, I hatelabels and I don't like to put
labels in front.
So, yes, masculine, feminine,why?
So I did a lot of research whatis feminine, what is masculine,
what makes us masculine orfeminine?
And I developed that, yes, youhave some things about the brain
, it's more the environment.
(28:30):
But then how to qualify?
At one point somebody told meyeah, I don't like masculine
feminine.
You should say a color like ayellow and purple.
I say yeah, but then you stillput labels.
It doesn't make sense.
So a cat is a cat.
We'll have day and night, we'llhave feminine and we'll have
masculine.
So you can challenge that, butthey are there and it's proven
(28:52):
for some of them, likecollaboration or empathy, that
we have more than the guys, dueto the brain and also the
upbringing and so on.
So we can discuss, say no, Idon't agree with that.
This is not masculine orfeminine, but we have to settle.
Jessica (29:08):
I'm not trying to argue , I'm just curious, because I
just wonder.
Fabienne (29:13):
I argued with myself.
I'm a rebel with myself, not me.
I was not comfortable talkingfeminine and masculine.
I was not, because he wasputting labels.
But then I found this book fromRashid Soja and Nili Mabad.
I have the pleasure tointerview them also and we call
it Shakti leadership and we canput it in the reference for the
audience and they talk aboutthat and I took this feminine
(29:35):
and masculine for their polaritymap because I thought it made
sense to me.
But again, yes, I agree that wecan argue.
Jessica (29:43):
But it's not an argument.
I'm just curious because we'retalking about living in a world
where we can all have morepermission to be ourselves.
Maybe we wouldn't have to rebelso much right?
So I'm just wondering if, whilelabels are important in
understanding our world to adegree, do you think removing
these labels would allow us tonaturally embrace a wider range
of traits and energies, that wewould be more embracing of all
(30:06):
of these energetic qualities,regardless of the gender we
identify as?
Because I want to know how dowe break free from these boxes,
how do we utilize the fullpotential of that energy that
exists in each of us?
You talk about in the bookstories of being among men who
have such a resistance when youtalk about our feminine
qualities and bringing that intothe workplace, and they have
such a reaction to that.
(30:26):
Do you think that we would havethat reaction if we just
accepted that all of these arebeautiful traits that we can all
embody?
Short on stories, yes, yes.
Fabienne (30:36):
However, like a lot of things, it's about time.
In the conclusion of the book,my first reaction was to call
this book innovation has no sex,no gender, nothing.
But we are not ready for that.
We're just entering genderfluidity.
We're just entering that.
So I'm a scientist.
I have to look at the reality,and the reality of the world is
we're still gendered, we'reevolving, but we still deal with
(30:59):
gendered and this is whatpeople understand now.
So this is an evolution.
But you have an excellent point, it's the evolution, and maybe
it was two years ago I wrotethat book.
Maybe it's already past that,maybe I hope so.
But you're right, these arequalities.
These are qualities.
So the first step is to say,okay, we still call them
masculine and feminine, becausethis is the convention.
(31:21):
The first step is to say we allhave a mix of both worlds, all
on a spectrum, regardless of ifwe were born with female or male
organs or your biological sex,whatever.
We are a mix of that and we canexpress ourselves.
But the next step absolutely isto say we're human beings with
all these qualities and we pickfrom them.
(31:41):
But I think we need totransition if it makes sense.
Jessica (31:44):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, let's talk about thesequalities.
Let's talk about the qualities,these feminine traits that you
encourage us to integrate moreinto our lives in order to
innovate, because these arequalities that I think have been
in many ways dismissed orignored or haven't actually had
a place at the table, and let'stalk through them a little bit.
(32:07):
You talk about the femininesuccess formula, which includes
empathy, nurturing, inclusivity,intuition, gratitude and
collaboration, and what I loveso much about this is that
you're taking these traits thatare often not seen as positives
or strengths, and innovation,and they're actually our
superpowers.
I know that we might not havetime to go through all of them,
(32:30):
but I'm hoping that you cantouch on a couple and why
they're so important.
Fabienne (32:35):
Absolutely.
And again, as a scientist, myapproach was that I listed first
all the qualities for a goodinnovator and then I looked at
those that were to me overlooked, from my experience all these
years, and the ones that had afeminine label.
So, empathy, empathy is morefeminine from the brain, the
(32:56):
oxytocinazone, so it's proven,it's more women.
However, anybody can beempathetic, of course, but
empathy is so critical becausethis is the first step in
innovation understanding theneeds of the person.
You have to put yourself intheir shoes.
Jessica (33:12):
Literal shoes like, not high heels.
Melissa (33:15):
Yeah, flat, comfortable , sexy shoes.
Fabienne (33:19):
We were developing products for senior overall care
.
I had hired a company who hadbuilt a suit that was mimicking
the effects of aging, likearthritis, like you know the
breeze, the vision, everythingwas mimicking how it is to be
older and we needed volunteersto try it and a young marketer.
(33:41):
She was like in her 20s and so,oh yeah, all excited and she
jumps into the suit.
And then she had to perform,you know, brushing her teeth,
going to the store and pick theproducts and then floss, and of
course, with the suit it wasreally mimicking what it is
really At the end.
So she was taking the suit outand it was taking an awful long
time.
We were wondering what she wasdoing and suddenly she turned
(34:04):
around.
She was crying and she said Ifeel so bad, I've been bullying
my grandmothers, but it wasreally physically embracing what
it is to be in the shoes ofanother person.
Each time you want to createsomething new, you have to put
yourself in the shoes in thelife, their environment, what
their dreams are, what theirfears are.
(34:26):
So empathy is absolutelycritical and the good news is
that, yes, it's a little bitmore feminine, but it's more by
education.
As women, we think of everybodyaround us before thinking of us.
But this is in our brain.
Yes, it is, it's proven.
However, the most is educationand upbringing.
So we can change that.
(34:47):
We can definitely change it.
And the second piece of goodnews is the plasticity of our
brain.
We can rewire our brain.
We can learn and acquire anyskill.
Then we can move quicklythrough the others.
Jessica (35:01):
Nurturing I love nurturing.
That was my favorite.
Fabienne (35:06):
That makes sense for you, and it's actually so
interesting one, because it'sextremely difficult to translate
into French when I give thisspeech.
No, it doesn't really translatein any way.
Nurturing is extremelyinteresting and needs to nurture
the small ideas to becomebetter ideas and big ideas.
And nurturing.
When I try to find images formy workshop, I always got images
(35:29):
of women with babies.
I was mad.
I was like what is that?
This nurturing is not reallyfeminine, but it has been
ingrained in our brains that, oh, you are such a nurturing.
No, I am not especiallynurturing.
Jessica (35:43):
I learned that by gardening, but I was not
nurturing at all when I wasyounger, but can we talk about
what that really means inpractice, because I love how you
talk about ideas.
Ideas need nurturing.
We need to give things patienceand space and time to blossom.
How timely is this?
I'm very intentional aboutbringing this up.
Melissa (36:03):
Because we were literally just talking about
that this morning.
The last thing I said to herbefore we jumped on this was I
need to have more patience andshe said yes, we all do,
especially when you're trying toinnovate and you have an idea
and you want to bring it to life.
Fabienne (36:14):
You want to get to the finish line.
This is such an important point.
I spend a lot of time on thatin my video course for teenagers
because this is this immediatereward world and the kids are
even worse than we are, but wewant that.
You order on Amazon and youwant it at your door.
We are used to that now.
But I say innovation takes timeand patience.
(36:34):
And it takes time because ithas to grow and ideas, like a
baby, has to grow.
Most ideas, when they come tolife, they are stupid.
A lot of people loved thebiggest ideas in the world but
then they became big innovation.
So you have to learn how totake your time and I know it's
(36:55):
very difficult and when youthink innovation there is also,
I would say people think, likeall these creative people with
big hair with a room full of binbags and you know, and the
coffee and ha ha ha andeverybody's having fun.
Innovation is blood, sweat andtears.
Innovation is very hard.
It's very tough Because you arechanging the rules, because you
(37:15):
are going into the unknown, youare failing, You're coming back
.
It's very, very tough.
You need to be persistent, butit pays off because the value to
your poor melisa when youarrive at the end and you have
this product or you have thisidea and you have, like, your
new business.
This is beautiful.
But like everything and this iswhat I love still about this
(37:35):
world even if we are goingthrough speed, speed, speed it
still takes nine months to makea baby Okay, I'm sorry and it
still takes time for an idea toup to fruition and see, if you
try to go too quickly, then youcreate something that doesn't
matter and then we are totallyflooded with things we don't
need in our lives.
Let's be honest.
So, when you respect all thisbeautiful feminine traits and
(37:59):
especially nurturing, taking thetime and so on, yes, you spend
time.
At the beginning, you think youwaste time.
You don't.
It's time well spent to createsomething that is sustainable
and that is meaningful.
Jessica (38:11):
Sustainable is such a good word.
Yeah, to create somethinglasting, the roots have to be
strong, and that takes time.
Melissa (38:19):
And before we jump forward, I really want to talk
about the nurturing as itpertains to failure, because so
often what I see because Isupport a lot of women that are
bringing new ideas to the tableand there's such a fear around
getting it right, around ithappening in accordance with a
certain you know and I'm, as I'msaying this a lot, I'm like I
know I do this too, but like ona certain timeline or that it
(38:41):
has to go a certain way, andpeople don't try because what if
it doesn't work right?
And with innovation there's alot of it not working right,
there's a lot of experimentingand nurturing it, and so I just
want to speak to that, becausepart of what I want us to do in
this podcast is give people thecourage to try and try again,
then realize that that is a verynormal, natural part of the
(39:02):
process.
So I just wanted to speak intothat before we move on, because
I think if we can speak morecompassion about the nurturing
side of creation, we will beless fearful of failure.
Jessica (39:15):
Absolutely Well along those lines.
You talk a lot about howinnovation requires that
willingness to embraceuncertainty, to make mistakes,
to be open to the accidents, toexplore the unknown, and I think
many of us are very fearful ofthe unknown and are very
uncomfortable in thatuncertainty.
So maybe along this line, youcan help us reframe why that's
(39:37):
such a good thing, why what wemight normally interpret that
lack of being in control is abad thing, is actually a
strength in this case.
Fabienne (39:45):
What you nurture, things is not like.
And you say control, and it'svery interesting because I
learned that a lot when Igardened and it's true for
educating kids.
But when you garden and yougrow something you cannot
control, you can guide.
You nourish, you guide and youwatch grow.
(40:06):
But I think this is AlexandraFine who created Dame Products
you know, these feminineproducts for sexual pleasure for
women and she said somethingwhich was beautiful in our
interview for the book.
She said that a business islike a kid it grows, it grows
and one day it has its own life.
So you cannot controleverything.
(40:27):
Control is again very masculineenergy.
We cannot control everythingand that's fine, but you can
give the chances to a businessto flourish and this is the
beauty of it.
Like an idea, the idea willgrow and you cross this idea
with another one and, oh youknow, suddenly they have this
life.
I love this quote from this guy.
(40:47):
He was talking about bars andcafes and coffee shops and this
is where innovation happens andit is like in these places ideas
have sex and I love thatbecause it's the idea.
They grew from each other.
This is the jumping through,collaboration, this is the
diversity.
You have all these ideas, theyall come together and suddenly
(41:08):
something happens that is biggerthan what if it's?
Melissa (41:12):
like an orgy.
I love that.
I love that.
Oh my God.
Fabienne (41:16):
Oh my God, oh, she's right.
No, that's all right.
Melissa (41:19):
I'm going to start calling my leadership meetings
like some sort of likeintellectual orgy or something.
Jessica (41:24):
Everything that you've been saying to me just sounds
like what it's like to have achild.
It's like being a parent in allthese different aspects of your
life.
You have to nurture, you haveto guide, but you can't actually
control.
Something is being born thathas a life of its own.
Fabienne (41:40):
Is this exactly?
Melissa (41:41):
that Is this exactly that and it's interesting
because I have a son who'salmost six and what I'm very
present to in this moment isI've been literally wanting to
freeze him in time for like fouryears.
I'm like he's so cute, soperfect.
I don't want him to be olderand bigger and be on his own.
And how different I have feltabout my business and like when
we're talking about watching achild grow and how like I don't
(42:04):
want to rush any part of thisthe infancy and this nurturing
of him becoming his own person,and just what a beautiful
reminder to treat, I mean, allof life like that really.
But when we talk about business, to fall in love with the
process of I was going to saythe idea orgy, but I don't know
(42:26):
that that really works in asentence.
Yeah, but I want to rush that?
Fabienne (42:31):
No, no.
You want to enjoy every step?
Yeah, and the same thing ininnovation enjoy every step.
Every step is fun when youbrainstorm ideas.
This is fun.
I love that part.
I also love when you select theideas.
Oh, this is where intuitioncomes into the picture, by the
way, instead of having all theseanalysis, paralysis and all
(42:53):
these daytime.
So, yeah, fine, you need that,but at the end of the day,
follow your gut feeling, followyour intuition.
You are smart enough andintuition is not.
Oh, I have this idea and I no,no, no, no, no.
Intuition is grounded inscience.
Intuition is actually when youhave enough information in your
brain, you let it settle, andthis is something we don't do.
(43:13):
Sleep shower.
Jessica (43:15):
I love how you talk about do nothing.
Yeah, do it.
How good that is for the brain.
Fabienne (43:21):
And then your brain, in the background, is doing its
beautiful work, and so smart itis doing that, connecting the
dots.
And why is precious?
Because, first, even if we havethe same type of information in
our brain, we all havedifferent ways of connecting the
dots.
And this is why, when we dothat, you have this unique
solution that comes to you.
(43:42):
It's not coming from out there,it's not an alien whispering to
your ears hey, you have to dothat.
It's not that.
It's really in your own brain,gathering all the signals and
giving you one direction.
This is what intuition is, andit's beautiful and you have to
follow that.
So when you have a lot of ideas, oh yeah, you can rank and you
(44:03):
vote.
You always end up in the middle, always something that is
blocked.
You have to dare having ideasthat are different, but at the
end of the day, this is whatwill make the difference in the
world or in your life.
Jessica (44:16):
I love this conversation.
I really do.
Thank you so much.
I feel like my takeaway is, aswe innovate or create in our
lives or in our businesses,wherever we show up in this life
, to approach it with gentleness, with our intuition.
Yeah, I guess the takeaway forme is to do it and embrace the
(44:37):
gentleness of that that we thinkgo out and be a rebel.
It feels like this very intense, explosive energy, but actually
we can do it in a way thathonors ourselves.
We can surround ourselves withpeople who make us feel very
safe and nurtured in order toshow up more as to who we are.
We can take our little ideasand plant them and nurture them
(44:59):
into fruition and collaborateright.
This is what Melissa is so goodat bringing people on board who
really help you bring theseideas to life as well.
So all of this is so valuableand you're so lovely to talk to.
Thank you.
Fabienne (45:13):
I know, I know, but lovely but fun.
Usually this is what I get.
Melissa (45:17):
Fun and lovely.
Well, I love that, I love your.
It's almost a playfulness, right, like you said, a lightness, a
way of bringing joy, andsometimes all the things we're
talking about around creationcan feel so heavy and so intense
and they can feel so like, oh,it's so hard you know and I love
bringing the joy and thelightness to the process,
because, yeah, of course it'sreally hard, but also can we
(45:40):
have fun, can we be playful, canwe bring the joy into it and
find the way to really thrive,live in the process of all of it
, absolutely.
Thanks so much for being here.
Fabienne (45:52):
Yes, thank you, it was a pleasure for you for having
me.
It was a pleasure and I hopethat you know inspires some
people.
Jessica (45:57):
It will, and dare to move in Absolutely, and we
encourage everybody to go andcheck out Fabian's book Venus
Genius the Feminine Prescriptionfor Innovation.
Hey there, rebels.
If you enjoyed this podcast, wewould love your support in a
(46:20):
few quick ways.
You could like, follow orsubscribe on your preferred
platform to help others discoverus too.
You could also leave us areview.
We also have a Facebook groupand you can find us at
facebookcom Slash groups.
Slash in a rebel podcast, andyou can find us on Instagram at
in a rebel podcast.
Your support means everythingto us and we can't wait to
(46:41):
continue this journey together.
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