September 10, 2025 • 57 mins
In this rare and deeply honest conversation, we sit down with Jeff Salzenstein — former top-100 tennis player turned executive performance coach — for a soulful exploration of identity, grief, resilience, and the emotional reckoning that comes when success is no longer the point.
Jeff opens up about the moment he knew it was time to leave tennis, the trauma that called him into coaching, and the recent experiences that are humbling him back into his body — and back into his heart. Together, we unpack what it means to be truly seen, the edges of emotional risk that no one talks about, and the surprising places the inner rebel shows up in midlife.
This one’s for the over-functioners, the fixers, the seekers, and the late bloomers. For anyone wondering if it’s too late to change your story — or be truly seen in the one you’re already living.
00:00 Introduction and Setting the Scene
00:42 Meet Jeff Selzen Stein
01:13 Tennis Career Highlights and Challenges
01:40 The Importance of Names and Identity
04:49 Inner Rebel and Personal Growth
07:41 The Role of Creativity in Tennis
11:25 Holistic Approach to Performance
19:31 Navigating Fear and Intuition
26:14 Transitioning from Tennis to Coaching
31:13 Helping My Brother's Transformation
31:57 From Alone to Community: A Journey of Accountability
32:52 Navigating Life Transitions and Embracing New Challenges
33:09 The Struggle with Community and the Lone Wolf Mentality
35:06 Exploring Relationships and the Desire for Family
36:57 The Importance of Self-Work and Vulnerability
43:30 Caring for My Father and Facing Personal Judgments
47:59 Reflecting on My Brother's Journey and Its Impact
53:01 The Pain of Unseen Relationships and the Path to Healing
56:14 Concluding Thoughts and Gratitude
If you loved today’s episode, please leave a review and share your favorite takeaways by screenshotting this episode and tagging us on Instagram! We also have a free virtual monthly community call on the 3rd Thursday of every month, join here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
UNKNOWN (00:00):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (00:02):
To even question what you've been told is true is
incredibly courageous.
It doesn't always feel likecourage what looks like courage
to other people.
For me, it feels like survival.
This is our personal medicine.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion,
by integrity, then I really dothink that I know who I am.
SPEAKER_05 (00:21):
There is a peace that is indescribable when
you're being who you are andyou're living your purpose.
I'm not going to come to the endof my life and be like, I didn't
live the life I was meant tolive.
SPEAKER_03 (00:30):
Can I be so comfortable in the idea This is
the
SPEAKER_06 (00:39):
Inner Rebel Podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (00:50):
I mean, you're making me think
SPEAKER_06 (00:51):
I should do all these podcasts standing up.
Well, what's funny is I have theability to do that and I never
stand up at my desk and it's sodumb.
But I have a thing that raisesup and down, but I always choose
to sit.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
We're stacking performance right now.
We were listening to 528frequency.
We're standing.
We're drinking structured water.
We're doing it.
SPEAKER_06 (01:09):
I'm just crushing my hip flexors instead.
Let's go.
All right.
I'm already taking notes.
And he's always perfect at hisexecution of all of his
performance things at everymoment.
SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
I'm definitely not perfect.
I I'm just kidding.
I'm totally kidding.
Maybe we'll talk about my shadowside in this podcast.
SPEAKER_06 (01:24):
Most likely.
Most likely.
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
Let's go.
SPEAKER_06 (01:26):
I'm Jessica, by the way.
Hi.
Oh, yeah.
And this is Jessica.
Hi, nice to meet you.
SPEAKER_01 (01:31):
My name's Jeff.
It's nice to meet you.
SPEAKER_06 (01:33):
Thank you so much for being here, Jeff.
And welcome, everyone, to InnerRebel.
I'm really excited to get to digin with you today.
We have Jeff Salzenstein todayon our podcast.
He's a former top 100world-ranked tennis player.
And not to brag, but I won sobig in my 2-5 tennis league last
night, and I thought it'sprobably the same level to what
(01:55):
you were playing, just to add alittle promo to my tennis
skills.
SPEAKER_01 (01:59):
Similar level.
You also have a decision onwhich way you want to go with
this, so I have a quick story.
Okay.
I was playing on the tour.
They would start the match, andthey would say Salzenstein to
serve.
And then by 2-all in the firstset, it would be Salzenstein,
three games to two.
And then by the end of the firstset, it was Salzenstein for set.
(02:21):
Did I say it wrong?
It was Salzensteig Sandwichburg.
And so for my entire life...
Oh, we'll go with that one.
My last name has been butchered.
And if I'm going to go out inthe world and dominate and do
all these big, cool things, Igot to make sure everybody knows
how to say my name.
SPEAKER_06 (02:38):
Okay.
I should have asked you before.
How do you say your last nameand why did I say it wrong?
I
SPEAKER_01 (02:43):
think you said Salzenstein.
And it's Salzenstein.
Salzenstein.
Instead of Sal.
Yeah, like salt.
Like salt and pepper.
You know what?
That's
SPEAKER_06 (02:53):
my Ohio coming out.
SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
Salzenstein.
Exactly.
Salzenstein.
Oh, my gosh.
You said Stein.
You went Stein on me.
And Stein is when I go toGermany.
And you know Salzenstein.
And I know it,
SPEAKER_06 (03:06):
too.
And I'm sorry.
I'm sweating now.
SPEAKER_01 (03:08):
It's okay.
I know.
SPEAKER_06 (03:09):
Oh, not again.
I'm sweating again.
My office is also
SPEAKER_01 (03:12):
hot.
Hey, when I get called up, whenI get called out on stages, like
when I do the keynotes, Isometimes forget.
And then they just completelybutcher it.
And then I forget.
I usually just have to run withit because I don't want to call
out the CEO that's justannounced me in front of 300
people.
But I'm like, man.
But Salzenstein means salt, zen.
There's some zen in there, whichwe're going to get into some zen
(03:34):
today.
And then steen is stone.
So it's salt stone is what myname actually means.
SPEAKER_06 (03:41):
I love that, Mr.
Salzenstein.
Let me try again.
You nailed it.
I nailed it.
Here we go.
You nailed it.
it.
There we go.
If we cut this out, then noone's going to know about my 2-5
tennis.
Okay, let's...
I'm just kidding.
We will probably leave this in.
I know we'll leave it in becausethis is real life.
I mean, let's do it.
(04:02):
We're humans, right?
My sincerest apology for beingnot on my game.
It's okay.
I get to talk about
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
the umpire story.
SPEAKER_06 (04:09):
What was the Sulzenberger?
What was that one?
SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
No, what I'm saying is by the end of a tennis match,
announcers would get it right atthe beginning, and then by the
end, they had changed it, likethree or four iterations.
That's so
SPEAKER_06 (04:21):
weird.
They were second guessingthemselves back there.
Like one of these is going to beright.
SPEAKER_01 (04:25):
I have friends from college that call me Saul's and
Steak Sandwichburg.
Like literally that's the jokeis that my name just becomes
like a buffet of weird things.
SPEAKER_06 (04:34):
It's like a game of telephone.
Well, you were a former top 100world ranked tennis player,
two-time Stanford All-Americanand national champion who now
helps leaders and teams unlockexcellence and thrive under
pressure, which I'm feeling inthe moment.
Without cracking like a cheaptennis racket.
As a leadership seeker andexecutive performance coach,
(04:56):
Jeff uses his own YourZoneframework to help high achievers
build resilience and optimizeperformance and well-being.
He lives in Denver, Colorado.
Yay, Colorado.
Plays pickleball.
Oh, that could be a wholeconversation for tennis players.
Yeah, despite being judged byhis tennis buddies and spends
his hard-earned money at WholeFoods, probably in Cherry Creek.
(05:17):
He's an avid Nuggets fan with aman crush.
Oh.
and takes full credit for theDenver Broncos Super Bowl
victories.
That's bold.
Why?
Because the Broncos areundefeated in the Super Bowls
that you have attended.
Well, you should start coming toall my two five tennis matches
then and take credit for that.
You'll win.
I'm so happy that you're here.
Thank you for being here and forcalling me out.
Permission to always do that.
We're really, oh my goodness.
(05:39):
Well, we love to start all ofour conversations with one
question because we're calledInner Rebel.
We're curious what yourrelationship is with your Inner
Rebel.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
When I was 28 years old, I had been playing pro
tennis for six years.
I had come back from twocareer-threatening injuries to
my ankle and knee.
I'm sure we can lean into thatat some point.
And I was desperate to break thetop 100 in the world.
I hadn't done it yet.
I had seen that these twoplayers that had just turned pro
within a year, they were top100.
(06:12):
I was frustrated.
So I found this coach inAtlanta, Georgia, who had helped
these two players get there.
And ironically enough, I startedworking with this coach for
about six months and he wasn'tthe right fit for me.
Then another guy said, hey, youshould go a couple miles down
the road and work with thisother coach.
He's this quirky Irish guy andhis name is Joseph O'Dwyer.
(06:32):
He's from Dublin, Ireland.
He's just such a cool character.
So I show up on this guy's courtand he's playing YouTube,
layering it on the boombox backin the, I don't know, what year
was it?
Yeah, it was like 2001.
I think they still had a versionof a boombox back then.
And he's playing it on thecourt.
He's playing, you know, wherethe Streets have no name.
And he's like, hey, mate, howyou doing?
(06:53):
And he comes, he's got thissword and he takes this sword
and he puts it like WilliamWallace from Braveheart into the
clay court.
And I'm like, who the F is thisguy?
Where did he come from?
Because I'm used to having thetennis courts, the coaches that
are cerebral and analytical andall whites and tucked in.
And this guy is the opposite ofthat, right?
He's a rebel, total rebel.
(07:14):
And so I start working with thisguy and he shows me a shot
called the buggy whip forehand.
It's a shot that Rafan of dollmade famous if you follow tennis
and you know Raphael.
But the buggy whip forehandinvolves like swinging your
forehand, your hand, I'm doingit lefty because I'm a lefty,
above your head instead of overyour shoulder.
And he showed me a couple ofother tricks.
But what Joseph O'Dwyer helpedme the most with was opening up
(07:37):
my mind to be different, to dareto be different, to be a rebel.
I already had the rebel insideof me and I was already doing a
lot of out of the box stuff, buthe gave me permission.
He gave me permission and hestarted calling me secret After
the book, Jonathan LivingstonSegal, the seagull that does not
follow the flock and he divebombs and he tries stuff and it
(07:57):
doesn't always work, but he'sjust stays true to his nature.
When he met me, he's like,you're the seagull.
He's like, I see you, theseagull.
So it's almost like he justopened up this Pandora's box of
rebellion of like, just frickinggo be you and go do you and do
weird, quirky things.
And so that was a pivotal momentin my life when I met Joseph.
He was the coach that helped mebreak the top hundred in the
(08:18):
world because I was like,because I was able to tap into
my inner seagull and my innerrebel.
SPEAKER_03 (08:23):
I love that.
What was it about accessing yourinner rebel at that time that
you think then helped launch youinto the top 100?
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
Well, what a lot of this was about was, I mentioned
it earlier, I am left-handed.
And left-handed people arenotorious for being artistic,
creative, kind of genius types,a little bit quirky.
And yet, you know, God bless myfamily, I was raised by a bunch
of right- You know, cerebral, inthe head, analytical, go through
(08:54):
the school system.
Damn right handers.
(09:19):
become an adult.
I'm starting to act more like anadult or think about these
things.
And he showed me stages aroundgetting out of my head and into
my heart and to play with moreheart and to play with my hand.
Before it was called tennis, theFrench called it jeu de paume.
And jeu de paume means handballor play with the hand.
And where a lot of coaches wereteaching me, you know, turn your
(09:41):
shoulders, bend your knees,watch the ball, like all the
things you hear from the coachdown the street that's working
with two fives and three O's.
This guy, was like, you got toplay with your hand.
You need to loosen your grip.
You need to visualize exactlywhere you want the ball to go
every time.
And he was just so artistic anddifferent in that way.
And it just opened up this wholething for me to play the game
(10:03):
from a more visual andkinesthetic perspective rather
than overanalyzing, which is ametaphor for life, right?
Like, can we play more withvision?
Can we play more with our feeland our intuition instead of
that rote, analytical,mind-based approach?
SPEAKER_06 (10:19):
Before you joined, Jess was asking me how we met.
And I told her, you know, how wemet at the networking event that
you spoke at, but that the thingthat really stood out to me was,
obviously, you have to be verydevoted to your whatever it is,
if you're going to be top 100 inthe world of anything.
And I really appreciated thatyou brought in these elements
(10:42):
that aren't as rigid, they aremore flowy, they are intuitive,
they do bring in the nervoussystem.
And I I was listening to one ofyour other interviews and you
spoke to that too.
I think he asked you, what doeshigh performance mean to you or
something to that effect?
And you were talking about itnot being rigid.
I like the term devotion.
To me, devotion feels more,well, I would use the term
(11:05):
feminine.
Devotion is like a softer, moreholistic approach to I think the
same idea.
So how do you bring in thesesofter qualities?
How do you bring in like thewhole picture to performance?
SPEAKER_01 (11:18):
Well, my perspective on it.
I think I know how I do it, butmy perspective on it is that I
look at my life and I look at mytennis career, you know, getting
to a hundred in the world at age30.
And when I share that withpeople, sometimes they're like,
wow, that's amazing.
And other times that they'relike, I don't even know what top
hundred means like in tennis.
I don't follow tennis, but youknow, in the context, I think
(11:39):
there's 60 million people thatplay tennis worldwide.
And in the NBA, you have 32teams that have 12 players on a
team.
So there's 350 NBA basketballplayers.
And there's multiple leagues inEurope and in Asian and
football.
There's thousands like tophundred in the world is kind of
crazy.
And now when I actually talkabout it, I say, let me give you
(12:02):
a little more context.
I shared the court with PeteSampras and Roger Federer and
Andy Roddick.
Like people don't know me thatdidn't follow tennis, but I
literally was on the court withthese guys and got to see their
greatness and what they did as,as athletes and performers.
It's my long way of kind ofsetting context before I get to
the answer.
My body was breaking down at theage of 24 after I played Michael
(12:23):
Chang at the US Open in front of24,000 people.
And my body started breakingdown after that.
And I didn't know if I was evergoing to play tennis again.
I guess I had this sixth senseof like, it's not just about
going to the doctor and havingthem fix your ankle.
Like there's more.
Like I have these limitingbeliefs and I have these
uncomfortable feelings and Idon't really know what to do
(12:45):
with it.
And so at 24 years old, going tomy first yoga class, and
starting to eat organic food.
And it was very holistic oflike, I just don't buy into the
traditional way that things aredone and what we're being sold
out in the world.
And so it started very early andI was my own guinea pig and my
own lab rat.
I tried all these crazy thingsand some of it stuck and most of
(13:06):
it didn't.
And I failed a lot and I kind oflook like an idiot at times.
But I guess I had courage andthe willingness to approach
performance from a perspectivethat wasn't just about winning.
I mean, listen, if If I woke upevery day thinking, and when I
was playing pro tennis, If I canjust get to top 10 in the world
and make$10 million, I mighthave done that.
(13:27):
But there was something about methat was more interested in the
path and the learning and theprocess than making the money in
the rankings.
I guess I had this sense thatthat wasn't ultimately going to
fulfill me.
And so what I've learned is thatfor leaders and high achievers
in the world outside of sport, Imean, it happens now and it's
(13:48):
happened in the past.
We can build a big company andwe can sell it for a gazillion
dollars.
and then we can wake up one dayand go, what the heck was I
doing?
What was this all for?
And the same thing happens intennis.
Like you play for 10 years andyou get to 40 in the world and
you beat all these players andyou made a bunch of money and
you put it in the bank, whichdidn't happen for me, but it's
another story.
And then you wake up and you'relike, I'm not even happy.
(14:10):
And so I think this performanceconcept now in this world we're
moving into is to address thewhole picture and the soft
skills, because the soft skillsare pointing to, they're
actually hard skills.
They're They're actually, theyimprove performance.
They make us better.
They integrate what we do in ourlives.
And the integration of themasculine and the feminine is so
(14:31):
key.
And we know a lot of that's notbalanced in the world.
And so I think my part, and Ithink that's what you picked up
on, Melissa, when I did my talk,my part in all of this is to
keep walking that path formyself and then to share what
I'm learning with others and doit in an integrated way without
it being too out there and toohokey.
I'm not going to show up, nojudgment, but I'm not going to
(14:52):
show up with a bunch of malabeads and say, I just came from
the Himalayas.
I'm going to show up in the nicesuit and packaged, you know, as
that former athlete guy.
But underneath it, there's a lotof digging to do around how we
can train our nervous system,how we can get into our bodies
more and do the somatic work andmerge the feminine and the
masculine.
SPEAKER_03 (15:10):
You shared so much about how you discovered your
inner rebel and the person whohelped bring it out in you and
how that fed into your career.
And now you find yourself in adifferent line of work.
you've pivoted and we'll talkabout that, but you are in a
completely different place inyour life.
And I imagine a lot of what youlearned then has been integrated
in a new way into present Jeff.
(15:33):
So what is your relationshipcurrently with your inner rebel?
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
When I think about my inner rebel today in this
moment, he's being challengednow.
I don't know if we ever arriveor fully, I mean, maybe some
people fully live into theirinner rebel, like 10 out of 10,
11 out of 10.
But what I've identifiedrecently is that we have parts
of ourselves and in many ways,multiple personalities.
(15:59):
There's a part of me that isvery rebellious, a huge risk
taker in certain ways.
At least that's the perceptionto the outside world.
To me, it feels very natural todo some of the things that I do.
SPEAKER_02 (16:12):
I've
SPEAKER_01 (16:13):
also identified there's still places where I
play it safe.
There's places where there'smore edges of me to bump up
against around my inner rebel.
I think the challenge that Ihave around the inner rebel is
that I was always the kid, forthe most part, followed the
rules and did the right things.
(16:35):
And so I think that part of mestill plays in the playground
with the inner rebel.
So there's a conflict, you know,especially in the world that we
live in, the 3D world of likehow many of us experience like
staying in this box of like howthe world works.
And we just want to get out ofthe box.
And I have been.
I've broken out of the box.
And yet, I still feel like thereare places where I'm playing
(16:59):
where it's too safe.
And I noticed that, especiallywith the work that I have done
on myself and the work that I dowith others, you know, I notice
it in my body.
Really intense sensations in mybody.
And then my mind, because I'mhuman, my mind can create all
different types of stories andmake meaning out of it.
So that was a pretty abstractanswer.
(17:21):
But The short of it would bethat my relationship with my
inner rebel is that I'm stilltaking chances.
I'm still out there doing it.
And I also see where I'm playingit safe.
SPEAKER_03 (17:34):
That doesn't sound abstract at all to me.
That sounds so human.
And I love that you spoke intohow you can feel it speaking
through your body, that when weare going against ourselves in
some way or inauthentic in someway, that we do have these clues
that you can feel and then ourminds will override it and try
(17:57):
to talk ourselves out of it.
I'm wondering if you're willingto speak into some of the
specific areas that you find,what would we call the opposite
of the inner rebel?
I guess the playing it safe,Jeff, is the loudest or is the
most uncomfortable in breakingfree.
SPEAKER_01 (18:14):
Yeah, there's this huge push out there, especially
in the Instagram world.
Everybody is getting in the coldtubs.
Like if you're not doing 42degrees every single day, you
just aren't good enough.
SPEAKER_03 (18:31):
Jeff, I think you're fine.
SPEAKER_01 (18:32):
You're just not good enough.
You're not burning enough brownfat.
You're clearly not courageousenough if you are not in a cold
tub at 42 degrees.
Yeah.
So my edge, my edge would be, Iplay it safe by like, I don't
really want to get in a coldtub.
Like I can do the cold shower orlike I want to hack it.
(18:53):
I don't really want to spendfive minutes in a cold tub at
42.
And especially again, thejustification, you had no idea I
was going to go there.
Did you?
SPEAKER_06 (19:02):
No, I thought you were going to go like really
vulnerable.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
This is vulnerable.
This is vulnerable.
Like I've gone down rabbit holesaround health and I realized
that I justify not doing thingsbecause I can find a reason why
I shouldn't so like with thecold tubs a couple things I
think I know to be true is thatmany of us are running around in
fight or flight ramped up oncortisol and coffee and maybe
(19:26):
not enough sleep and we're goinggoing going and then we're
jumping into a cold tub to freakour nervous system out even more
like I feel like my nervoussystem is already like at an
edge right now even in thisseason of my life and I don't
know if a cold tub is the thingthat I need to regulate my
nervous system.
So there's a story in my headthat I'm playing it safe by not
(19:49):
wanting to get cold.
There's another story in my headthat part of me wants to jump
out of a plane, but another partof me is like, I don't know.
I don't really have an interestin rock climbing.
So I think it's like the extremethings I play safe on.
The really extreme things.
And then if I'm maybe not assuccessful in certain areas or
(20:09):
not getting what I want, then Istart thinking, well, maybe I
should be like cold tubbing andlike jumping out of planes and
doing all these things in orderto have more courage.
It's confusing sometimes forthis brain of mine.
SPEAKER_03 (20:21):
I have a question then, because I think what is
really interesting about this,and this comes up with clients
of mine a lot, is how do younavigate the difference between
fear that is meant to be movedthrough in order to free
yourself and be your authenticself and your intuition keeping
you safe?
(20:42):
What What if you're just notmeant to jump out of a plane?
Like, how would you be able totell the difference
SPEAKER_01 (20:48):
between those two things?
(21:12):
It's definitely something I'vegot to be looking at.
And what I can tell you is thatprobably just need to like go do
it with somebody.
Doing those things on my owndoesn't sound as fun as doing it
with someone.
And yet still, I'm like, I don'tknow if I want to do these crazy
extreme things.
So that's where I played safe.
SPEAKER_06 (21:31):
I want to tie this into when we make choices,
they're often tied to ourgreater values.
And what I'm actually hearingyou speak to is I have a value
of courage, right?
I have a value of bravery.
And perhaps you have a value ofeven community in that of I'd
rather do it with somebody elsethan just do it to do it.
(21:51):
And maybe there's another valuein there of, I don't know how to
name it, but there's somethingaround just like an honoring of
yourself.
And so it's not really about thecold plunge or the airplane.
It's really about yourperformance coach.
Do we just identify forever?
I am a top 100 athlete in theworld in tennis.
(22:12):
And so as a top performer,you're always looking at what is
my edge to get to my goal?
What is my edge?
So I'm going to make this meansomething deeper around your
ultimate goal, which would bewhat?
So if you're looking at thesethings that seem maybe trivial
on the surface where we weregiggling about cold plunging,
(22:32):
ultimately cold plunging issomething that people really do
use for performance.
And so if we take a step deeper,when you're looking at
performance, when you're Whatare your edges around those?
And am I making a correctassumption that those are the
values that we're actuallytalking about when you're
thinking of planes and coldplunging and rock climbing and-
SPEAKER_01 (22:53):
Getting back to the cold plunge when you said 52
degrees, I think Huberman andsomebody else says that actually
it's five minutes, three times aweek at 50 to 52 degrees.
That's the place I would play.
And so to your point, it's like,are we just doing things to do
them as a adrenaline rush orthis makes me tougher or
(23:16):
stronger?
Are we actually doing it becauseit would help our well-being,
our health, our performance?
SPEAKER_06 (23:23):
Can I pause you in that sentence right there?
What I hear is intention.
We were talking about you beinga seagull that flies outside of
the flock.
And so am I following the flockto follow the flock or am I
taking an intentional action tohonor my body, my path, my
SPEAKER_01 (23:42):
I've showed courage that actually doesn't feel like
courage to me.
Like the things that we donaturally that people see in us
as courageous or whatever thevalue is.
I'm just like, this is just whatI do.
At 19 years old, I had the worstserve in college tennis.
And instead of playing thetournaments and losing, I went
back home and transformed myserve on my own.
(24:04):
That requires openness,curiosity, and courage to say,
you know what?
I'm not going to follow theflock.
I'm not going to follow the I'mactually going to go try to
change this thing.
And it worked.
People would say that's maybenot so much courageous, but like
a very unique thing to do.
And then when you decide to playtennis professionally for 11
(24:26):
years and you do 70 to 80percent of it on your own
without a team and you'retraveling everywhere and you're
losing and you're sitting inhotel rooms and you're not
really making a lot of money,but you stay in it for 11 years
because that's your path.
That's your journey.
journey.
That's your hero's journey.
Most people would not do that.
(24:47):
Most people would just be like,this is for the birds.
I'm done.
I'm going to move home.
I'm going to get a job.
I'm going to like, whatever thething is, for some reason, that
was the path I went on.
And then to start an onlinetennis instruction business
where there were like two orthree people doing it at the
time.
And there wasn't Instagram andall the TikToks.
(25:08):
It was just YouTube.
And that was pretty new.
To decide to be a speaker atFort Like you hear these stories
of people that started over at45 or 50 or go on and founded
Kentucky Fried Chicken orwhatever they did to do those
things, innovate, reinventyourself, I think is courageous.
And then it makes me also thinkto get to the next level of
(25:29):
performance or the next level ofsuccess.
Maybe that's what I'm talkingabout today is more cold
plunging and more jumping out ofplanes because I haven't done
those things.
And I do find that sometimes Ibump up against these plateaus
and it's around nervous systemregulation and limiting beliefs
and I'm aware of that and I wantto be thoughtful and intentional
(25:52):
about the choices I make to freeme up more.
SPEAKER_03 (25:55):
What I love about this conversation is there's so
much being sold to us all thetime and how we evolve is a very
personal journey to us andthere's so much to navigate
between our fears and ourintuition and these
psychological barriers that webump up against and I think it
(26:16):
is a very personal thing and Ilove that you're talking into
feeling into those edges of oh Ican feel that there's a block
and having curiosity about thatblock and is that something that
is just not right for me or isthere a personal fear that is
holding me back from this butthere's physical risks like the
ones you're speaking into andthen there's emotional risks and
(26:39):
I see you as someone who hasobviously taken a lot of
physical risks in your life aswell but has taken many many
emotional risks.
Other people have no problemjumping out of planes but a lot
of the things that you haveembarked on in your life would
be very very scary for thosepeople.
One of those things that I wantto touch on is you transitioning
(27:00):
out of tennis into the work thatyou do now and I know that there
was a pivotal moment for you inthat transition but it is a very
vulnerable thing to leave behinda career that that you were so
successful at and find a newpath and transition through that
new path.
And I'm wondering if you wannashare a little bit about the
(27:22):
emotional risks required of youat that
SPEAKER_01 (27:26):
time.
Yeah, I'm happy to.
A lot of places we can go here.
When I played pro tennis for 11years, I got to 100 in the world
at age 30.
It took me seven years to do it.
I had two career threateninginjuries.
I had a lot of injuries.
Like I mentioned, I did a lot ofthings alone.
I made a lot of mistakes Whetherit was trying the wrong diet in
the middle of the fifth largesttournament in the world, I
(27:47):
decided to try some weird diet.
I think a form of self-sabotageof some sort to make that
decision in that moment.
It's weird.
But there came a moment in myearly 30s when I just didn't
want to get on planes anymore.
And I was probably sad, probablygrieving.
I cried three times.
One month before my lastprofessional match, three
(28:08):
different moments.
One was with an ex-girlfriendafter I lost a tennis match in
California.
another time was driving down toplay this tournament where my
father was going to come watchme play he was my first coach
put the racket in my hand and Ithought this is the last time in
my mind and my body I felt likethis is the last time he's ever
going to see me play I felt thatthe third time was the coach
(28:28):
Joseph O'Dwyer who called meSiegel he came to watch me play
so I was almost going throughthis grieving process before I
actually quit
SPEAKER_03 (28:36):
did you know you were going to quit or did you
just like your body was ahead
SPEAKER_01 (28:40):
of you everything was ahead because I didn't know
what to do because I didn't knowhow to quit.
I didn't know how to walk awaybecause what do you do when
you've never had a real job andall you've done is tennis?
And you hear these stories ofathletes when they retire,
they're lost.
They may hit the drink.
They may hit the drugs.
They may do some destructivebehaviors and they're lost in
(29:02):
the next career.
And more stories are like thatthan the success stories where
people transition seamlessly.
It's hard.
It comes
SPEAKER_03 (29:10):
from
SPEAKER_01 (29:10):
identity.
Yeah.
I mean, I I mean, you playtennis since you were four and
everyone looks at you as theall-American guy and they look
up to you.
And it's great.
It gets you in the door.
It gets people to respect youright away.
But there is a feeling of notbeing able to live up to that
and always having to be there.
So I'm having a hard timequitting.
(29:32):
And what's interesting, youmentioned the body.
There was so much stress duringthat time that I manifested
physical and mental challengeswhere I couldn't play.
I was dizzy.
And that lingered for abouteight months, and I still had
not officially retired because Ididn't know what to do.
(30:12):
I helped him find a rehabfacility.
I helped fund it.
I moved back to Denver.
I announced that I was a coach.
And next thing you know, I wascoaching tennis.
And so it was interesting thatit took a traumatic experience
for me to go into my fixer modeand say, this is the thing
that's going to get me out ofthis somehow because I didn't
(30:32):
know how to get out of it on myown.
And so as traumatic and painfulas that experience was, it was
the thing that led me tocoaching.
I always knew that I was goingto coach, I think.
I was studying tennis like acoach, but then that was just
thrust upon me.
And I realized quickly that Ienjoyed coaching more than I
enjoyed competing on the protour.
And then he came to live with meafter he went through rehab.
(30:54):
And then he relapsed, went backto Florida.
He started using drugs.
He started dealing drugs.
It was pretty messy.
And then he ended up landing inprison and he transformed while
he was in prison.
It took him a while to getthere.
He had to hit his rock bottom.
And my brother and I went onthis incredible journey.
Yeah.
(31:42):
And so we hatched a plan.
We created a customized coachingprogram.
And thankfully, it was a virtualprogram.
I didn't have to go to prison towork with him.
But it was humbling to go therewhen I did and sit with him in
the lunchroom in the cafeteriaand look into his eyes and see
that he was ready to make thesechanges.
(32:03):
And so one of the most proud,defining moments, experiences in
my life was being able to helpmy brother navigate his
transformation.
I mean, listen, he did.
90% of the work.
But the fact that we did theseweekly calls and he was writing
me letters and he was changinghis body and his mind and he was
meditating, he was praying, hewas doing all the things that we
are supposed to be doing outhere.
He was doing it when he had alot of free time and truly a
(32:26):
beautiful experience and onethat I carry with me as a
speaker today.
SPEAKER_06 (32:31):
My brain, when I listen to people's stories, it
almost extracts processes out ofstory.
And as I'm hearing your journeyfrom the thing you always knew
to transforming it into a newpurpose this is what I heard is
that you went from sort of analone journey and in your own
(32:52):
mind feeling this level ofdissatisfaction and it took
somebody else which was yourbrother and this was like a
critical moment where you had tomake a decision but it was
almost this permission to stepinto the thing you already knew
like you had a knowing that youwanted to coach but it was so
scary to do it and so there'slike this critical And then
(33:13):
there was an accountability.
So it was like, you have to gofrom alone to community, new
purpose, make a decision andhave accountability.
I'm curious now, because I knowin your keynotes and probably a
lot of your conversations,you're revisiting a lot of these
defining moments of your past.
You mentioned you made severaltransitions in your life
already.
I imagine it becomes easier themore you do it, right?
(33:34):
We get braver the more we relyon our courage.
You've transitioned from tennisplayer to coach, you know, all
of the other layers that you'vegone through.
I think the thing I'm mostcurious about is like, how do
you know what's next?
Because now you're talking aboutjumping out of planes, you're
talking about cold plunging.
Do you have this itch, thiscuriosity of like, what's next
for you?
And how do you know?
Like, how do you know when it'stime to like, let's say
(33:56):
metaphorically, jump out of thatairplane and make that decision?
SPEAKER_01 (33:59):
First of all, you mentioned community.
I've been really sitting withthis a lot lately and creating
some stories that maybe aren'tthe best stories.
So I've got to really be awareof that.
I'm a bit of a lone wolf So ifwe go back again, if we go back
to our childhood, only child,parents divorced at four, first
memory growing up is alone in mybedroom, walking up to go play
(34:23):
tennis at seven years old on abusy street.
Like you don't normally let kidswalk on a busy traffic street at
seven years old.
You don't do that in 2025.
Maybe you did in 1980.
And then you step on a tenniscourt and I'm not playing
doubles most of the time.
I'm playing singles.
And the only one that isresponsible for winning and
(34:43):
losing is me like I have tosolve it and you start doing
that at four years old and youtake it to where you took it
it's like it's deeply embeddedto be an individualist and
SPEAKER_02 (34:54):
to
SPEAKER_01 (34:56):
think believe that you can do it on your own which
is ridiculous because I had somuch help on my journey there's
a perception that I did it alonebut like so many people helped
me get to where I want to go andso I've really been leaning into
this idea of community it's verya natural It's natural for me,
even though we're supposed tolike crave that.
I like one-on-one conversations.
(35:19):
And so that is one thing I'mlooking at.
It's almost a bit overwhelmingfor my nervous system to like
expand into community and tofind the space for that because
of how I've operated.
I've never said this before on apodcast, what I'm about to say,
but I, and the light just wentout.
SPEAKER_03 (35:39):
It's okay.
SPEAKER_01 (35:40):
Hello.
Symbolic.
We can do this.
SPEAKER_06 (35:44):
The darkness of light.
You will stay in the dark withthis thought.
I will not let you bring it intothe light.
SPEAKER_01 (35:50):
Jeez, I know.
If
SPEAKER_06 (35:51):
it makes you feel any better, we often get the,
I've never said this before.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (35:57):
I've never said this before on a podcast, but you
think of unique journeys and ifyou go back again into your past
and your patterns and how yousee the world and how you
perceive relationships andcommunity.
I've never been married before.
Relationships, you know,intimate relationships have been
something, again, theunconscious pattern.
I'm safer on my own becausethat's what I know.
SPEAKER_02 (36:18):
And
SPEAKER_01 (36:19):
I've always kind of chosen that hero's journey,
alchemist path.
And there's a season coming ofcalling in someone to do this
with in this second half oflife.
And so what's interesting aboutmy story, and I'm also open to
kids too, which, you know, I'm51.
Why not?
Like, it would only make sensefor me to like make a family and
(36:41):
have a bunch of kids because Ialways thought I wouldn't.
The story I tell myself is thatpeople, maybe they're young and
they get into relationships andthey don't really know who they
are and they don't even know theperson they're with.
And then somebody wants tochange more than the other.
And so I'm going to just say oneof two things happens.
The two people decide they'regoing to grow together and it
just becomes this beautifulthing that started out as maybe
(37:03):
not very aware and then becamelike really beautiful.
Or one person goes and then itjust doesn't work out.
And then you maybe try it againthe second time and maybe you
get it right the second timemaybe not or other people maybe
they wait till their 30s andthen they they're more
self-aware and then they findtheir partner and here I am like
bumping up against I don't knowtime like oh my gosh I'm 51 what
(37:28):
have I been doing like I've beenon this remarkable journey but
like yeah there's just a levelof self-awareness now of well
I'm either gonna do this thingon my own for a bit because of
who I am and or I'm going tocall someone in that's gonna
match where I'm at.
So I'm doing the work to beready for that possibility.
Like I said, I've never saidthat publicly.
SPEAKER_03 (37:47):
So it's not just cold plunges and planes.
This is another one of thoseedges.
We've learned about a few otheredges.
What I'm hearing in your answerto Melissa's question, and I
think it's a beautiful answer,is that if we start to look at
the places that we've beenafraid to look, that is going to
(38:08):
shine a light on what the nextthing is.
I don't know if the answer isalways to jump out of the plane
or to get into the cold plunge.
(38:41):
Like we think
SPEAKER_06 (38:42):
about the journey and destination.
And so often we think aboutwhat's next as in professional
accomplishments, right?
Launching the business, it's theprofessional pivot.
And what you spoke to in what'snext was all relational.
It was partnership andcommunity.
And maybe those will havesomething to do with business,
(39:05):
but perhaps not at all.
SPEAKER_03 (39:06):
But I actually think that that connects back to this
idea of the masculine and thefeminine that you brought up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(39:41):
think in that way.
Like we have no idea what arelationship for you or
accessing community would openup in your professional life.
But we always think outside in,not inside out.
SPEAKER_01 (39:52):
My biggest challenge around the community aspect has
been, you know, finding thatfit.
I've tried some men's groups andagain, maybe it's me, but like I
would sit there sometimes and belike, I don't think so.
This doesn't feel like the rightfit.
So then I kind of go back tolone wolfing a bit.
SPEAKER_03 (40:08):
I don't know if you've heard of human design,
but I'm a human design reader.
From the perspective of humandesign, and if you've never
heard of it, there'ssimilarities to astrology and
numerology and things like that.
We talk about community a lot onthis show, and I think it's
worth noting that at least fromthe perspective of the work that
I do, not everyone is meant forcommunity in the same way.
(40:31):
Community can look like many,many different things.
And I love that you said, I'mbetter in one-on-one
conversations.
I think that's totally valid.
Some people, when I givereadings, they are They are here
to have a certain amount ofseparateness and autonomy.
Literally, there's a gate inhuman design called the gate of
aloneness.
And it's there to help protectyour energy so that you can be
(40:55):
of service and be properlyboundaried.
That's one reason for it.
But also because in order to behealthy in community, we also
need to have a strong sense ofself and be self-actualized and
know that everybody serves aunique purpose.
We really are here to bring ourunique gifts forward and then
work together and collaboratetogether.
(41:17):
We are better together thanmaybe on our own because we're
all lifting each other up andbringing the skill sets that we
might lack someone else bringsto the table and it can be a
really beautiful thing.
But I think it is also abeautiful thing to be on that
journey on your own and developyour sense of self and learn who
you are and you're probably aleader and that's another reason
(41:37):
why people are given thatenergy.
It's difficult to be thevisionary and be enmeshed in the
group at the same time.
So I just wanted to say that tonot negate your instincts, that
maybe there's a reason you'vebeen walking the solo path and
it's a beautiful thing.
And maybe it's also a season tolearn what community means to
you and both are simultaneously
SPEAKER_01 (41:59):
okay.
Maybe you two can help me definethat for me.
SPEAKER_06 (42:02):
And we see that all the time in Nova because most of
the people, the women that comeinto our community are, I'd say
like 40 to 65.
And so often They're walkinginto our room and saying, Take
(42:41):
some time to find the so good.
(43:12):
And so I think when we thinkabout starting to cultivate it,
it really is just one reallynice, meaningful, soul
nourishing relationship at atime.
And it's perfectly okay.
And I love Jess's gift withhuman design.
And I actually have beenthinking this since the
beginning of our conversationthat I hope you get a reading
with her.
I send every human being I knowto Jess for this because I think
human design is the tool thatmakes you feel the most seen and
(43:35):
normal for every single way thatyou are, where you're not like,
something's wrong with me.
I'm a lone wolf.
It's like, nope, that's actuallyexactly how you're supposed to
be at however we arrive andwhenever we arrive at this
desire, it's right on time.
SPEAKER_03 (43:48):
And I think it's a beautiful thing going back to
just looking at our growth edgesand our discomfort to regardless
of whether you feel like a lonewolf or you feel like you're
someone who's natural incommunity, we all have barriers
to connection and vulnerabilityand the willingness to be seen
and known deeply.
I think so many people listeningto this are going to relate to
(44:09):
this, to just have the bravery,the courage, talking about
emotional risk to spend time inthose questions is I think a
really profound thing.
So good on you.
SPEAKER_01 (44:20):
Let me, yeah, let me share something off of that.
I'm in a season right now where,and I'm getting coached in, he's
a coach slash therapist, formerrabbi in a past life, very wise,
wise soul.
And when I go in and this allstarted three months ago, my
father was diagnosed with stagefour cancer and in March.
SPEAKER_03 (44:41):
I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (44:43):
Thank you.
And I got on a plane and flewdown to Florida to get him.
He was alone and not in a greatsituation.
I intuitively knew this was nota good situation and it wasn't
going to go well if he stayedthere.
So on March 28th, I brought himback to Colorado.
And so I went from being to nowI'm primary caregiver for my
(45:05):
father, who is a wonderful, nicedude, but he didn't raise me.
And so we have a reallyinteresting connection that now
I'm taking care of someone thatin many respects didn't show up
for me.
And what I've been bumping upagainst, and this is, you know,
the human side of me, the coachis supposed to have it all
(45:26):
together.
I'm noticing a couple of themes.
The more that I keep growing andevolving, I'm actually noticing
a lot of judgment coming up.
I'm noticing a lot ofcomparison.
So, you know, all the cliche islike comparison is the thief for
the joy and judgment takes youout of the flow and I'm supposed
to be the zone coach and yet I'mnoticing those edges are coming
(45:49):
up like crazy for me right nowand it's painful it's
uncomfortable I don't even knowwhat to do with it sometimes and
then the third theme so judgmentcomparison and then the last is
being seen you mentioned that
SPEAKER_02 (46:00):
yeah
SPEAKER_01 (46:01):
and when I see if I get emotional or not but when I
go in and I sit with my coachand there's something about this
room I sit in this room and itell him my stuff and like the
tears and the emotion and all ofthis pent-up stuff is coming out
but i feel fully seen by him andi was at a speaking event last
(46:23):
week and you talk aboutcommunity it's this incredible
community it's called impact 11there's like 300 speakers and
everyone's hugging andhigh-fiving and we're in it
together and we're growing and isee how everyone's so friendly
everyone's like together andlike you mentioned i i've met
those one-on one people, but Ialmost feel like how are these
(46:44):
people friends with everyone?
And on LinkedIn, they're likeposting group selfies.
How are these people like livingtheir lives and staying in touch
with these people?
Gosh, how are they doing this?
And I remember stepping out ofthe room.
It was like a quick break andthen it bled into another talk.
And I met up with one of thepartners who ironically, his
(47:04):
theme of what he talks about iscalled made with love.
And he's one of the guys inthere that I just feel so
connected to.
and I was kind of going throughsomething and he just held space
for me and so in a season whereI feel like I'm not being seen
by many in a lot of situationsor not understood I have these
two tangible examples of thiscoach that's seeing me every
(47:26):
week and this person that's inthe group that like held space
for me when I was going througha really hard moment and so it's
just this paradox right now forme of like seeing and unseen
judgment and like how do I letgo of this and It's a lot.
So I guess I'm getting my owntherapy session in this podcast
(47:46):
today, telling you all thingsthat I've never shared before.
SPEAKER_03 (47:50):
I so appreciate your vulnerability and especially as
coaches.
And this is what I find sointeresting is that your work
now is actually seeing peopleand you had the experience, if
we go back to your brother for amoment, of the power of seeing
someone and holding space forsomeone and how it transforms
(48:10):
And yet even when we know thatand we serve that role for other
people, and I love that you'rebeing so honest as a coach
because the three of us arecoaches in this space and we
know that we don't have our shitfigured out all the time.
(48:40):
that in return.
Am I allowed to go back, Mo, ordo you have a question?
I am the boss of this show.
You know what, Jess, I
SPEAKER_06 (48:47):
trust you.
You do whatever you
SPEAKER_03 (48:48):
want, girl.
Okay.
I'm just really curious aboutthat moment for you, that moment
with your brother where you saidhe overdosed and then that was
it.
You made the switch.
And I think in the moment,though, even though that's what
happened, what occurredemotionally for you in that
moment that allowed the switchto happen?
(49:10):
I
SPEAKER_01 (49:11):
don't know how much emotion it was as much as it
was, okay, I've been training ona tennis court since I was four
years old solving problems.
I know how to get shit done.
I know how to make it happen.
I can get this to go in theright direction.
I can lead through this.
So, and I think it also speaksto where I was at in my life.
(49:34):
And I mean, if you look at likegenerational trauma in our
lineage, like what are thechances you live a life where at
33 years old, you play protennis for 11 years and then you
see your brother lyinghelplessly on the floor and your
father and your stepmother arenot able to kind of put that
together to help him.
(49:55):
And I take on that role.
SPEAKER_02 (49:57):
And
SPEAKER_01 (49:59):
then fast forward 18 years and I'm getting on a plane
and I'm flying down to go pickup my father to take care of
him.
So interesting.
Go in the annals of history andAnd try to find another story
where I am the chosen one or theleader, or I'm supposed to heal
this trauma in my family.
(50:19):
And I literally have tried tolike fix or save two people in
my family that are men.
And I have my own stuff I'mworking through around the
divine masculine and likeproviding and protecting, like
feeling like I can take care ofa family.
It's a lot.
It's a lot.
Like if someone wants to hangout with me and like like, help
(50:41):
me work through this.
Cause it's like, I'm goingthrough it.
And yet I know that on the flipside, obviously when I'm
coaching people, I'm able todraw on all of this to help
them.
So in that moment, I don't,there was probably fear, but
there's more like when you'redown four or five, this is
trivial, but you're down four orfive in the third set and you
got to hold serve.
(51:02):
What you do is you take 25seconds between points.
You take a deep breath, you getyour strategy, you trust your
serve and you freaking go forit.
And that's what I did with mybrother figure it out later you
know if you fast forward he goesto prison we transform I
shouldn't say we he transformsprobably we well yeah so just
want to try to keep my ego outof it but he transforms and then
(51:24):
he gets out of prison and he'slike a house on fire in terms of
what he wants to do and all theideas he has and one thing I
remember is that very early on Igot wind that he was drinking
alcohol when he got out ofprison and I looked at him and
I'm like like Bad idea, jeans.
Like, no, that's not a play.
That's me.
That's me.
The responsible one.
(51:45):
Like, we're not going to pushthose edges there.
We're just not going there.
But he did.
And at the time I let it go.
I thought, well, you know what?
Maybe he can handle it.
You know, there's certain peoplethat can, you know, I didn't
know.
So, so we went on this journeythe next three years, really
working to build him up.
And he went so fast up in theworld and he learned business
(52:08):
coaching online.
I got him into the marketinggurus.
I mean, anyone who could be adrug dealer and successful in
that world and navigate gangsand navigate prison can probably
figure out sales and likegrowing a business.
So he did that.
And then I mentioned the alcoholbecause about two and a half to
three years after prison wins aspeaking contest, he gets a TEDx
(52:29):
talk.
He's on the stage doing a TEDxtwo and a half years out of
getting out of prison.
And about three months afterthat, he ran into an old drug
dealer and for some reasondecided to buy drugs and use
drugs again.
SPEAKER_02 (52:42):
And,
SPEAKER_01 (52:43):
you know, as connected as my brother, I was a
mentor.
I was looking up to him.
He would always say, Jeff,you're my best friend.
We were brothers, but like I wasthis father figure to him.
And then when he started using,our connection just went like
that, you know, it wentcompletely different directions.
And it got really bad, so badthat he overdosed two and a half
(53:03):
years ago and he died.
And so that journey of seeinghim lie on, thank you, seeing
him lying on on the floor whenhe was 17 and you fast forward
15 years and he's lying on afloor alone in a room and he
died.
And yeah, it's like, this ispart of my why.
He's in my keynote, he's in mystory.
(53:26):
It's a big humanizing factoraround my journey.
Yeah, there's a lot to squeezein there.
SPEAKER_06 (53:33):
Yeah, so much deep healing happening.
I mean, that's still so recentand then to have your dad
re-emerging and...
Just bringing that up of like,you're like 18 years later,
here's my dad andsimultaneously, there's just so
much to unpack.
And I'm very sad that we need towrap up.
SPEAKER_01 (53:49):
One thing I want to say about that.
Yeah, please.
I don't know if I'm going toshare this link with him, but,
you know, talk about seen andunseen, like your father, when
you feel like he can't see you.
It's the worst.
And he's living with me as he'sgoing through cancer.
And there's a love there, butlike to not feel like...
(54:10):
you're ever gonna be seen andit's in your face.
It's like, it's a lot.
SPEAKER_06 (54:14):
Yeah, it's so much.
And simultaneously, oh, I justwanna talk to you for so long.
You're also getting thejuxtaposition of being so deeply
seen by these other men.
And so I have no doubt that thiswill all make sense one day of
the timing of all of it.
But when we're in it, it's like,this is so confusing.
Like, why now?
(54:34):
Why is this happening?
SPEAKER_03 (54:35):
Yeah.
There's a really importanttakeaway for me that I'm
hearing, and this was a reallydifficult lesson in my life,
that as someone who is inclinedto be of service and is inclined
to make a difference and has aninstinct to save people, there
is also this level of acceptancethat we learn the hard way that
(54:59):
one, we can't save people whodon't want to be saved, but also
some people will never changeand they might not be what we
need them to be.
And there is this painfulreality Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_06 (55:40):
But the more that I have been deeply seen by people
in my life, I actually don'treally need it.
Right.
And that just, that took me 10years to feel calm in my system
with my family.
They're alive and so it's adifferent journey, but it took
(56:02):
me 10 years of working on thatto be so seen with myself and
then to not need it from them.
Right.
it's like a whole freakingpainful zing experience that
SPEAKER_03 (56:16):
yeah it's often when we let go of the need to be seen
by the people who can't see usthat the people who see us can
see us
SPEAKER_01 (56:24):
and there's something to be said again about
out of sight out of mind like ifyou're 2,000 miles away from
your parents who don't see youlike it's good but when you see
them every day and you walk in aroom and you're like this is how
our relationship is and there'sno Like there's nothing there to
like, it's very confronting.
And that's why the judgment andthe comparison and the what the
(56:46):
heck is going on.
That's my work is like to be init.
And again, we know as coaches,what a gift on the positive side
to be able to say, you know, aclient's working with you and
you have an experience that'smaybe similar or you can relate
to that can make a differencefor them.
SPEAKER_03 (57:03):
What a beautiful moment you're in, Jeff.
I know it's hard, but thank youfor being so honest.
SPEAKER_02 (57:09):
Thank you.
Thank
SPEAKER_06 (57:10):
you.
Yeah.
Thank you for being here andthank you for your vulnerability
and
SPEAKER_03 (57:15):
such a beautiful, unexpected conversation.
And I'm really glad that we hadthat.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (57:20):
Yeah.
It wasn't the normal, it wasn'ta normal podcast of talking
about the journey and what youdo now and not usually want
SPEAKER_06 (57:26):
it to be actually.
I'm like, well, let's have theconversation that you haven't
had before.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (57:31):
Well, that's what we're doing.
Thank you.
So thank you.
All right.
All right.
SPEAKER_03 (57:36):
Lots of love.
Thank you for being here.
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (57:40):
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (00:02):
To even question what you've been told is true is
incredibly courageous.
It doesn't always feel likecourage what looks like courage
to other people.
For me, it feels like survival.
This is our personal medicine.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion,
by integrity, then I really dothink that I know who I am.
SPEAKER_05 (00:21):
There is a peace that is indescribable when
you're being who you are andyou're living your purpose.
I'm not going to come to the endof my life and be like, I didn't
live the life I was meant tolive.
SPEAKER_03 (00:30):
Can I be so comfortable in the idea This is
the
SPEAKER_06 (00:39):
Inner Rebel Podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (00:50):
I mean, you're making me think
SPEAKER_06 (00:51):
I should do all these podcasts standing up.
Well, what's funny is I have theability to do that and I never
stand up at my desk and it's sodumb.
But I have a thing that raisesup and down, but I always choose
to sit.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
We're stacking performance right now.
We were listening to 528frequency.
We're standing.
We're drinking structured water.
We're doing it.
SPEAKER_06 (01:09):
I'm just crushing my hip flexors instead.
Let's go.
All right.
I'm already taking notes.
And he's always perfect at hisexecution of all of his
performance things at everymoment.
SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
I'm definitely not perfect.
I I'm just kidding.
I'm totally kidding.
Maybe we'll talk about my shadowside in this podcast.
SPEAKER_06 (01:24):
Most likely.
Most likely.
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
Let's go.
SPEAKER_06 (01:26):
I'm Jessica, by the way.
Hi.
Oh, yeah.
And this is Jessica.
Hi, nice to meet you.
SPEAKER_01 (01:31):
My name's Jeff.
It's nice to meet you.
SPEAKER_06 (01:33):
Thank you so much for being here, Jeff.
And welcome, everyone, to InnerRebel.
I'm really excited to get to digin with you today.
We have Jeff Salzenstein todayon our podcast.
He's a former top 100world-ranked tennis player.
And not to brag, but I won sobig in my 2-5 tennis league last
night, and I thought it'sprobably the same level to what
(01:55):
you were playing, just to add alittle promo to my tennis
skills.
SPEAKER_01 (01:59):
Similar level.
You also have a decision onwhich way you want to go with
this, so I have a quick story.
Okay.
I was playing on the tour.
They would start the match, andthey would say Salzenstein to
serve.
And then by 2-all in the firstset, it would be Salzenstein,
three games to two.
And then by the end of the firstset, it was Salzenstein for set.
(02:21):
Did I say it wrong?
It was Salzensteig Sandwichburg.
And so for my entire life...
Oh, we'll go with that one.
My last name has been butchered.
And if I'm going to go out inthe world and dominate and do
all these big, cool things, Igot to make sure everybody knows
how to say my name.
SPEAKER_06 (02:38):
Okay.
I should have asked you before.
How do you say your last nameand why did I say it wrong?
I
SPEAKER_01 (02:43):
think you said Salzenstein.
And it's Salzenstein.
Salzenstein.
Instead of Sal.
Yeah, like salt.
Like salt and pepper.
You know what?
That's
SPEAKER_06 (02:53):
my Ohio coming out.
SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
Salzenstein.
Exactly.
Salzenstein.
Oh, my gosh.
You said Stein.
You went Stein on me.
And Stein is when I go toGermany.
And you know Salzenstein.
And I know it,
SPEAKER_06 (03:06):
too.
And I'm sorry.
I'm sweating now.
SPEAKER_01 (03:08):
It's okay.
I know.
SPEAKER_06 (03:09):
Oh, not again.
I'm sweating again.
My office is also
SPEAKER_01 (03:12):
hot.
Hey, when I get called up, whenI get called out on stages, like
when I do the keynotes, Isometimes forget.
And then they just completelybutcher it.
And then I forget.
I usually just have to run withit because I don't want to call
out the CEO that's justannounced me in front of 300
people.
But I'm like, man.
But Salzenstein means salt, zen.
There's some zen in there, whichwe're going to get into some zen
(03:34):
today.
And then steen is stone.
So it's salt stone is what myname actually means.
SPEAKER_06 (03:41):
I love that, Mr.
Salzenstein.
Let me try again.
You nailed it.
I nailed it.
Here we go.
You nailed it.
it.
There we go.
If we cut this out, then noone's going to know about my 2-5
tennis.
Okay, let's...
I'm just kidding.
We will probably leave this in.
I know we'll leave it in becausethis is real life.
I mean, let's do it.
(04:02):
We're humans, right?
My sincerest apology for beingnot on my game.
It's okay.
I get to talk about
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
the umpire story.
SPEAKER_06 (04:09):
What was the Sulzenberger?
What was that one?
SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
No, what I'm saying is by the end of a tennis match,
announcers would get it right atthe beginning, and then by the
end, they had changed it, likethree or four iterations.
That's so
SPEAKER_06 (04:21):
weird.
They were second guessingthemselves back there.
Like one of these is going to beright.
SPEAKER_01 (04:25):
I have friends from college that call me Saul's and
Steak Sandwichburg.
Like literally that's the jokeis that my name just becomes
like a buffet of weird things.
SPEAKER_06 (04:34):
It's like a game of telephone.
Well, you were a former top 100world ranked tennis player,
two-time Stanford All-Americanand national champion who now
helps leaders and teams unlockexcellence and thrive under
pressure, which I'm feeling inthe moment.
Without cracking like a cheaptennis racket.
As a leadership seeker andexecutive performance coach,
(04:56):
Jeff uses his own YourZoneframework to help high achievers
build resilience and optimizeperformance and well-being.
He lives in Denver, Colorado.
Yay, Colorado.
Plays pickleball.
Oh, that could be a wholeconversation for tennis players.
Yeah, despite being judged byhis tennis buddies and spends
his hard-earned money at WholeFoods, probably in Cherry Creek.
(05:17):
He's an avid Nuggets fan with aman crush.
Oh.
and takes full credit for theDenver Broncos Super Bowl
victories.
That's bold.
Why?
Because the Broncos areundefeated in the Super Bowls
that you have attended.
Well, you should start coming toall my two five tennis matches
then and take credit for that.
You'll win.
I'm so happy that you're here.
Thank you for being here and forcalling me out.
Permission to always do that.
We're really, oh my goodness.
(05:39):
Well, we love to start all ofour conversations with one
question because we're calledInner Rebel.
We're curious what yourrelationship is with your Inner
Rebel.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
When I was 28 years old, I had been playing pro
tennis for six years.
I had come back from twocareer-threatening injuries to
my ankle and knee.
I'm sure we can lean into thatat some point.
And I was desperate to break thetop 100 in the world.
I hadn't done it yet.
I had seen that these twoplayers that had just turned pro
within a year, they were top100.
(06:12):
I was frustrated.
So I found this coach inAtlanta, Georgia, who had helped
these two players get there.
And ironically enough, I startedworking with this coach for
about six months and he wasn'tthe right fit for me.
Then another guy said, hey, youshould go a couple miles down
the road and work with thisother coach.
He's this quirky Irish guy andhis name is Joseph O'Dwyer.
(06:32):
He's from Dublin, Ireland.
He's just such a cool character.
So I show up on this guy's courtand he's playing YouTube,
layering it on the boombox backin the, I don't know, what year
was it?
Yeah, it was like 2001.
I think they still had a versionof a boombox back then.
And he's playing it on thecourt.
He's playing, you know, wherethe Streets have no name.
And he's like, hey, mate, howyou doing?
(06:53):
And he comes, he's got thissword and he takes this sword
and he puts it like WilliamWallace from Braveheart into the
clay court.
And I'm like, who the F is thisguy?
Where did he come from?
Because I'm used to having thetennis courts, the coaches that
are cerebral and analytical andall whites and tucked in.
And this guy is the opposite ofthat, right?
He's a rebel, total rebel.
(07:14):
And so I start working with thisguy and he shows me a shot
called the buggy whip forehand.
It's a shot that Rafan of dollmade famous if you follow tennis
and you know Raphael.
But the buggy whip forehandinvolves like swinging your
forehand, your hand, I'm doingit lefty because I'm a lefty,
above your head instead of overyour shoulder.
And he showed me a couple ofother tricks.
But what Joseph O'Dwyer helpedme the most with was opening up
(07:37):
my mind to be different, to dareto be different, to be a rebel.
I already had the rebel insideof me and I was already doing a
lot of out of the box stuff, buthe gave me permission.
He gave me permission and hestarted calling me secret After
the book, Jonathan LivingstonSegal, the seagull that does not
follow the flock and he divebombs and he tries stuff and it
(07:57):
doesn't always work, but he'sjust stays true to his nature.
When he met me, he's like,you're the seagull.
He's like, I see you, theseagull.
So it's almost like he justopened up this Pandora's box of
rebellion of like, just frickinggo be you and go do you and do
weird, quirky things.
And so that was a pivotal momentin my life when I met Joseph.
He was the coach that helped mebreak the top hundred in the
(08:18):
world because I was like,because I was able to tap into
my inner seagull and my innerrebel.
SPEAKER_03 (08:23):
I love that.
What was it about accessing yourinner rebel at that time that
you think then helped launch youinto the top 100?
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
Well, what a lot of this was about was, I mentioned
it earlier, I am left-handed.
And left-handed people arenotorious for being artistic,
creative, kind of genius types,a little bit quirky.
And yet, you know, God bless myfamily, I was raised by a bunch
of right- You know, cerebral, inthe head, analytical, go through
(08:54):
the school system.
Damn right handers.
(09:19):
become an adult.
I'm starting to act more like anadult or think about these
things.
And he showed me stages aroundgetting out of my head and into
my heart and to play with moreheart and to play with my hand.
Before it was called tennis, theFrench called it jeu de paume.
And jeu de paume means handballor play with the hand.
And where a lot of coaches wereteaching me, you know, turn your
(09:41):
shoulders, bend your knees,watch the ball, like all the
things you hear from the coachdown the street that's working
with two fives and three O's.
This guy, was like, you got toplay with your hand.
You need to loosen your grip.
You need to visualize exactlywhere you want the ball to go
every time.
And he was just so artistic anddifferent in that way.
And it just opened up this wholething for me to play the game
(10:03):
from a more visual andkinesthetic perspective rather
than overanalyzing, which is ametaphor for life, right?
Like, can we play more withvision?
Can we play more with our feeland our intuition instead of
that rote, analytical,mind-based approach?
SPEAKER_06 (10:19):
Before you joined, Jess was asking me how we met.
And I told her, you know, how wemet at the networking event that
you spoke at, but that the thingthat really stood out to me was,
obviously, you have to be verydevoted to your whatever it is,
if you're going to be top 100 inthe world of anything.
And I really appreciated thatyou brought in these elements
(10:42):
that aren't as rigid, they aremore flowy, they are intuitive,
they do bring in the nervoussystem.
And I I was listening to one ofyour other interviews and you
spoke to that too.
I think he asked you, what doeshigh performance mean to you or
something to that effect?
And you were talking about itnot being rigid.
I like the term devotion.
To me, devotion feels more,well, I would use the term
(11:05):
feminine.
Devotion is like a softer, moreholistic approach to I think the
same idea.
So how do you bring in thesesofter qualities?
How do you bring in like thewhole picture to performance?
SPEAKER_01 (11:18):
Well, my perspective on it.
I think I know how I do it, butmy perspective on it is that I
look at my life and I look at mytennis career, you know, getting
to a hundred in the world at age30.
And when I share that withpeople, sometimes they're like,
wow, that's amazing.
And other times that they'relike, I don't even know what top
hundred means like in tennis.
I don't follow tennis, but youknow, in the context, I think
(11:39):
there's 60 million people thatplay tennis worldwide.
And in the NBA, you have 32teams that have 12 players on a
team.
So there's 350 NBA basketballplayers.
And there's multiple leagues inEurope and in Asian and
football.
There's thousands like tophundred in the world is kind of
crazy.
And now when I actually talkabout it, I say, let me give you
(12:02):
a little more context.
I shared the court with PeteSampras and Roger Federer and
Andy Roddick.
Like people don't know me thatdidn't follow tennis, but I
literally was on the court withthese guys and got to see their
greatness and what they did as,as athletes and performers.
It's my long way of kind ofsetting context before I get to
the answer.
My body was breaking down at theage of 24 after I played Michael
(12:23):
Chang at the US Open in front of24,000 people.
And my body started breakingdown after that.
And I didn't know if I was evergoing to play tennis again.
I guess I had this sixth senseof like, it's not just about
going to the doctor and havingthem fix your ankle.
Like there's more.
Like I have these limitingbeliefs and I have these
uncomfortable feelings and Idon't really know what to do
(12:45):
with it.
And so at 24 years old, going tomy first yoga class, and
starting to eat organic food.
And it was very holistic oflike, I just don't buy into the
traditional way that things aredone and what we're being sold
out in the world.
And so it started very early andI was my own guinea pig and my
own lab rat.
I tried all these crazy thingsand some of it stuck and most of
(13:06):
it didn't.
And I failed a lot and I kind oflook like an idiot at times.
But I guess I had courage andthe willingness to approach
performance from a perspectivethat wasn't just about winning.
I mean, listen, if If I woke upevery day thinking, and when I
was playing pro tennis, If I canjust get to top 10 in the world
and make$10 million, I mighthave done that.
(13:27):
But there was something about methat was more interested in the
path and the learning and theprocess than making the money in
the rankings.
I guess I had this sense thatthat wasn't ultimately going to
fulfill me.
And so what I've learned is thatfor leaders and high achievers
in the world outside of sport, Imean, it happens now and it's
(13:48):
happened in the past.
We can build a big company andwe can sell it for a gazillion
dollars.
and then we can wake up one dayand go, what the heck was I
doing?
What was this all for?
And the same thing happens intennis.
Like you play for 10 years andyou get to 40 in the world and
you beat all these players andyou made a bunch of money and
you put it in the bank, whichdidn't happen for me, but it's
another story.
And then you wake up and you'relike, I'm not even happy.
(14:10):
And so I think this performanceconcept now in this world we're
moving into is to address thewhole picture and the soft
skills, because the soft skillsare pointing to, they're
actually hard skills.
They're They're actually, theyimprove performance.
They make us better.
They integrate what we do in ourlives.
And the integration of themasculine and the feminine is so
(14:31):
key.
And we know a lot of that's notbalanced in the world.
And so I think my part, and Ithink that's what you picked up
on, Melissa, when I did my talk,my part in all of this is to
keep walking that path formyself and then to share what
I'm learning with others and doit in an integrated way without
it being too out there and toohokey.
I'm not going to show up, nojudgment, but I'm not going to
(14:52):
show up with a bunch of malabeads and say, I just came from
the Himalayas.
I'm going to show up in the nicesuit and packaged, you know, as
that former athlete guy.
But underneath it, there's a lotof digging to do around how we
can train our nervous system,how we can get into our bodies
more and do the somatic work andmerge the feminine and the
masculine.
SPEAKER_03 (15:10):
You shared so much about how you discovered your
inner rebel and the person whohelped bring it out in you and
how that fed into your career.
And now you find yourself in adifferent line of work.
you've pivoted and we'll talkabout that, but you are in a
completely different place inyour life.
And I imagine a lot of what youlearned then has been integrated
in a new way into present Jeff.
(15:33):
So what is your relationshipcurrently with your inner rebel?
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
When I think about my inner rebel today in this
moment, he's being challengednow.
I don't know if we ever arriveor fully, I mean, maybe some
people fully live into theirinner rebel, like 10 out of 10,
11 out of 10.
But what I've identifiedrecently is that we have parts
of ourselves and in many ways,multiple personalities.
(15:59):
There's a part of me that isvery rebellious, a huge risk
taker in certain ways.
At least that's the perceptionto the outside world.
To me, it feels very natural todo some of the things that I do.
SPEAKER_02 (16:12):
I've
SPEAKER_01 (16:13):
also identified there's still places where I
play it safe.
There's places where there'smore edges of me to bump up
against around my inner rebel.
I think the challenge that Ihave around the inner rebel is
that I was always the kid, forthe most part, followed the
rules and did the right things.
(16:35):
And so I think that part of mestill plays in the playground
with the inner rebel.
So there's a conflict, you know,especially in the world that we
live in, the 3D world of likehow many of us experience like
staying in this box of like howthe world works.
And we just want to get out ofthe box.
And I have been.
I've broken out of the box.
And yet, I still feel like thereare places where I'm playing
(16:59):
where it's too safe.
And I noticed that, especiallywith the work that I have done
on myself and the work that I dowith others, you know, I notice
it in my body.
Really intense sensations in mybody.
And then my mind, because I'mhuman, my mind can create all
different types of stories andmake meaning out of it.
So that was a pretty abstractanswer.
(17:21):
But The short of it would bethat my relationship with my
inner rebel is that I'm stilltaking chances.
I'm still out there doing it.
And I also see where I'm playingit safe.
SPEAKER_03 (17:34):
That doesn't sound abstract at all to me.
That sounds so human.
And I love that you spoke intohow you can feel it speaking
through your body, that when weare going against ourselves in
some way or inauthentic in someway, that we do have these clues
that you can feel and then ourminds will override it and try
(17:57):
to talk ourselves out of it.
I'm wondering if you're willingto speak into some of the
specific areas that you find,what would we call the opposite
of the inner rebel?
I guess the playing it safe,Jeff, is the loudest or is the
most uncomfortable in breakingfree.
SPEAKER_01 (18:14):
Yeah, there's this huge push out there, especially
in the Instagram world.
Everybody is getting in the coldtubs.
Like if you're not doing 42degrees every single day, you
just aren't good enough.
SPEAKER_03 (18:31):
Jeff, I think you're fine.
SPEAKER_01 (18:32):
You're just not good enough.
You're not burning enough brownfat.
You're clearly not courageousenough if you are not in a cold
tub at 42 degrees.
Yeah.
So my edge, my edge would be, Iplay it safe by like, I don't
really want to get in a coldtub.
Like I can do the cold shower orlike I want to hack it.
(18:53):
I don't really want to spendfive minutes in a cold tub at
42.
And especially again, thejustification, you had no idea I
was going to go there.
Did you?
SPEAKER_06 (19:02):
No, I thought you were going to go like really
vulnerable.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
This is vulnerable.
This is vulnerable.
Like I've gone down rabbit holesaround health and I realized
that I justify not doing thingsbecause I can find a reason why
I shouldn't so like with thecold tubs a couple things I
think I know to be true is thatmany of us are running around in
fight or flight ramped up oncortisol and coffee and maybe
(19:26):
not enough sleep and we're goinggoing going and then we're
jumping into a cold tub to freakour nervous system out even more
like I feel like my nervoussystem is already like at an
edge right now even in thisseason of my life and I don't
know if a cold tub is the thingthat I need to regulate my
nervous system.
So there's a story in my headthat I'm playing it safe by not
(19:49):
wanting to get cold.
There's another story in my headthat part of me wants to jump
out of a plane, but another partof me is like, I don't know.
I don't really have an interestin rock climbing.
So I think it's like the extremethings I play safe on.
The really extreme things.
And then if I'm maybe not assuccessful in certain areas or
(20:09):
not getting what I want, then Istart thinking, well, maybe I
should be like cold tubbing andlike jumping out of planes and
doing all these things in orderto have more courage.
It's confusing sometimes forthis brain of mine.
SPEAKER_03 (20:21):
I have a question then, because I think what is
really interesting about this,and this comes up with clients
of mine a lot, is how do younavigate the difference between
fear that is meant to be movedthrough in order to free
yourself and be your authenticself and your intuition keeping
you safe?
(20:42):
What What if you're just notmeant to jump out of a plane?
Like, how would you be able totell the difference
SPEAKER_01 (20:48):
between those two things?
(21:12):
It's definitely something I'vegot to be looking at.
And what I can tell you is thatprobably just need to like go do
it with somebody.
Doing those things on my owndoesn't sound as fun as doing it
with someone.
And yet still, I'm like, I don'tknow if I want to do these crazy
extreme things.
So that's where I played safe.
SPEAKER_06 (21:31):
I want to tie this into when we make choices,
they're often tied to ourgreater values.
And what I'm actually hearingyou speak to is I have a value
of courage, right?
I have a value of bravery.
And perhaps you have a value ofeven community in that of I'd
rather do it with somebody elsethan just do it to do it.
(21:51):
And maybe there's another valuein there of, I don't know how to
name it, but there's somethingaround just like an honoring of
yourself.
And so it's not really about thecold plunge or the airplane.
It's really about yourperformance coach.
Do we just identify forever?
I am a top 100 athlete in theworld in tennis.
(22:12):
And so as a top performer,you're always looking at what is
my edge to get to my goal?
What is my edge?
So I'm going to make this meansomething deeper around your
ultimate goal, which would bewhat?
So if you're looking at thesethings that seem maybe trivial
on the surface where we weregiggling about cold plunging,
(22:32):
ultimately cold plunging issomething that people really do
use for performance.
And so if we take a step deeper,when you're looking at
performance, when you're Whatare your edges around those?
And am I making a correctassumption that those are the
values that we're actuallytalking about when you're
thinking of planes and coldplunging and rock climbing and-
SPEAKER_01 (22:53):
Getting back to the cold plunge when you said 52
degrees, I think Huberman andsomebody else says that actually
it's five minutes, three times aweek at 50 to 52 degrees.
That's the place I would play.
And so to your point, it's like,are we just doing things to do
them as a adrenaline rush orthis makes me tougher or
(23:16):
stronger?
Are we actually doing it becauseit would help our well-being,
our health, our performance?
SPEAKER_06 (23:23):
Can I pause you in that sentence right there?
What I hear is intention.
We were talking about you beinga seagull that flies outside of
the flock.
And so am I following the flockto follow the flock or am I
taking an intentional action tohonor my body, my path, my
SPEAKER_01 (23:42):
I've showed courage that actually doesn't feel like
courage to me.
Like the things that we donaturally that people see in us
as courageous or whatever thevalue is.
I'm just like, this is just whatI do.
At 19 years old, I had the worstserve in college tennis.
And instead of playing thetournaments and losing, I went
back home and transformed myserve on my own.
(24:04):
That requires openness,curiosity, and courage to say,
you know what?
I'm not going to follow theflock.
I'm not going to follow the I'mactually going to go try to
change this thing.
And it worked.
People would say that's maybenot so much courageous, but like
a very unique thing to do.
And then when you decide to playtennis professionally for 11
(24:26):
years and you do 70 to 80percent of it on your own
without a team and you'retraveling everywhere and you're
losing and you're sitting inhotel rooms and you're not
really making a lot of money,but you stay in it for 11 years
because that's your path.
That's your journey.
journey.
That's your hero's journey.
Most people would not do that.
(24:47):
Most people would just be like,this is for the birds.
I'm done.
I'm going to move home.
I'm going to get a job.
I'm going to like, whatever thething is, for some reason, that
was the path I went on.
And then to start an onlinetennis instruction business
where there were like two orthree people doing it at the
time.
And there wasn't Instagram andall the TikToks.
(25:08):
It was just YouTube.
And that was pretty new.
To decide to be a speaker atFort Like you hear these stories
of people that started over at45 or 50 or go on and founded
Kentucky Fried Chicken orwhatever they did to do those
things, innovate, reinventyourself, I think is courageous.
And then it makes me also thinkto get to the next level of
(25:29):
performance or the next level ofsuccess.
Maybe that's what I'm talkingabout today is more cold
plunging and more jumping out ofplanes because I haven't done
those things.
And I do find that sometimes Ibump up against these plateaus
and it's around nervous systemregulation and limiting beliefs
and I'm aware of that and I wantto be thoughtful and intentional
(25:52):
about the choices I make to freeme up more.
SPEAKER_03 (25:55):
What I love about this conversation is there's so
much being sold to us all thetime and how we evolve is a very
personal journey to us andthere's so much to navigate
between our fears and ourintuition and these
psychological barriers that webump up against and I think it
(26:16):
is a very personal thing and Ilove that you're talking into
feeling into those edges of oh Ican feel that there's a block
and having curiosity about thatblock and is that something that
is just not right for me or isthere a personal fear that is
holding me back from this butthere's physical risks like the
ones you're speaking into andthen there's emotional risks and
(26:39):
I see you as someone who hasobviously taken a lot of
physical risks in your life aswell but has taken many many
emotional risks.
Other people have no problemjumping out of planes but a lot
of the things that you haveembarked on in your life would
be very very scary for thosepeople.
One of those things that I wantto touch on is you transitioning
(27:00):
out of tennis into the work thatyou do now and I know that there
was a pivotal moment for you inthat transition but it is a very
vulnerable thing to leave behinda career that that you were so
successful at and find a newpath and transition through that
new path.
And I'm wondering if you wannashare a little bit about the
(27:22):
emotional risks required of youat that
SPEAKER_01 (27:26):
time.
Yeah, I'm happy to.
A lot of places we can go here.
When I played pro tennis for 11years, I got to 100 in the world
at age 30.
It took me seven years to do it.
I had two career threateninginjuries.
I had a lot of injuries.
Like I mentioned, I did a lot ofthings alone.
I made a lot of mistakes Whetherit was trying the wrong diet in
the middle of the fifth largesttournament in the world, I
(27:47):
decided to try some weird diet.
I think a form of self-sabotageof some sort to make that
decision in that moment.
It's weird.
But there came a moment in myearly 30s when I just didn't
want to get on planes anymore.
And I was probably sad, probablygrieving.
I cried three times.
One month before my lastprofessional match, three
(28:08):
different moments.
One was with an ex-girlfriendafter I lost a tennis match in
California.
another time was driving down toplay this tournament where my
father was going to come watchme play he was my first coach
put the racket in my hand and Ithought this is the last time in
my mind and my body I felt likethis is the last time he's ever
going to see me play I felt thatthe third time was the coach
(28:28):
Joseph O'Dwyer who called meSiegel he came to watch me play
so I was almost going throughthis grieving process before I
actually quit
SPEAKER_03 (28:36):
did you know you were going to quit or did you
just like your body was ahead
SPEAKER_01 (28:40):
of you everything was ahead because I didn't know
what to do because I didn't knowhow to quit.
I didn't know how to walk awaybecause what do you do when
you've never had a real job andall you've done is tennis?
And you hear these stories ofathletes when they retire,
they're lost.
They may hit the drink.
They may hit the drugs.
They may do some destructivebehaviors and they're lost in
(29:02):
the next career.
And more stories are like thatthan the success stories where
people transition seamlessly.
It's hard.
It comes
SPEAKER_03 (29:10):
from
SPEAKER_01 (29:10):
identity.
Yeah.
I mean, I I mean, you playtennis since you were four and
everyone looks at you as theall-American guy and they look
up to you.
And it's great.
It gets you in the door.
It gets people to respect youright away.
But there is a feeling of notbeing able to live up to that
and always having to be there.
So I'm having a hard timequitting.
(29:32):
And what's interesting, youmentioned the body.
There was so much stress duringthat time that I manifested
physical and mental challengeswhere I couldn't play.
I was dizzy.
And that lingered for abouteight months, and I still had
not officially retired because Ididn't know what to do.
(30:12):
I helped him find a rehabfacility.
I helped fund it.
I moved back to Denver.
I announced that I was a coach.
And next thing you know, I wascoaching tennis.
And so it was interesting thatit took a traumatic experience
for me to go into my fixer modeand say, this is the thing
that's going to get me out ofthis somehow because I didn't
(30:32):
know how to get out of it on myown.
And so as traumatic and painfulas that experience was, it was
the thing that led me tocoaching.
I always knew that I was goingto coach, I think.
I was studying tennis like acoach, but then that was just
thrust upon me.
And I realized quickly that Ienjoyed coaching more than I
enjoyed competing on the protour.
And then he came to live with meafter he went through rehab.
(30:54):
And then he relapsed, went backto Florida.
He started using drugs.
He started dealing drugs.
It was pretty messy.
And then he ended up landing inprison and he transformed while
he was in prison.
It took him a while to getthere.
He had to hit his rock bottom.
And my brother and I went onthis incredible journey.
Yeah.
(31:42):
And so we hatched a plan.
We created a customized coachingprogram.
And thankfully, it was a virtualprogram.
I didn't have to go to prison towork with him.
But it was humbling to go therewhen I did and sit with him in
the lunchroom in the cafeteriaand look into his eyes and see
that he was ready to make thesechanges.
(32:03):
And so one of the most proud,defining moments, experiences in
my life was being able to helpmy brother navigate his
transformation.
I mean, listen, he did.
90% of the work.
But the fact that we did theseweekly calls and he was writing
me letters and he was changinghis body and his mind and he was
meditating, he was praying, hewas doing all the things that we
are supposed to be doing outhere.
He was doing it when he had alot of free time and truly a
(32:26):
beautiful experience and onethat I carry with me as a
speaker today.
SPEAKER_06 (32:31):
My brain, when I listen to people's stories, it
almost extracts processes out ofstory.
And as I'm hearing your journeyfrom the thing you always knew
to transforming it into a newpurpose this is what I heard is
that you went from sort of analone journey and in your own
(32:52):
mind feeling this level ofdissatisfaction and it took
somebody else which was yourbrother and this was like a
critical moment where you had tomake a decision but it was
almost this permission to stepinto the thing you already knew
like you had a knowing that youwanted to coach but it was so
scary to do it and so there'slike this critical And then
(33:13):
there was an accountability.
So it was like, you have to gofrom alone to community, new
purpose, make a decision andhave accountability.
I'm curious now, because I knowin your keynotes and probably a
lot of your conversations,you're revisiting a lot of these
defining moments of your past.
You mentioned you made severaltransitions in your life
already.
I imagine it becomes easier themore you do it, right?
(33:34):
We get braver the more we relyon our courage.
You've transitioned from tennisplayer to coach, you know, all
of the other layers that you'vegone through.
I think the thing I'm mostcurious about is like, how do
you know what's next?
Because now you're talking aboutjumping out of planes, you're
talking about cold plunging.
Do you have this itch, thiscuriosity of like, what's next
for you?
And how do you know?
Like, how do you know when it'stime to like, let's say
(33:56):
metaphorically, jump out of thatairplane and make that decision?
SPEAKER_01 (33:59):
First of all, you mentioned community.
I've been really sitting withthis a lot lately and creating
some stories that maybe aren'tthe best stories.
So I've got to really be awareof that.
I'm a bit of a lone wolf So ifwe go back again, if we go back
to our childhood, only child,parents divorced at four, first
memory growing up is alone in mybedroom, walking up to go play
(34:23):
tennis at seven years old on abusy street.
Like you don't normally let kidswalk on a busy traffic street at
seven years old.
You don't do that in 2025.
Maybe you did in 1980.
And then you step on a tenniscourt and I'm not playing
doubles most of the time.
I'm playing singles.
And the only one that isresponsible for winning and
(34:43):
losing is me like I have tosolve it and you start doing
that at four years old and youtake it to where you took it
it's like it's deeply embeddedto be an individualist and
SPEAKER_02 (34:54):
to
SPEAKER_01 (34:56):
think believe that you can do it on your own which
is ridiculous because I had somuch help on my journey there's
a perception that I did it alonebut like so many people helped
me get to where I want to go andso I've really been leaning into
this idea of community it's verya natural It's natural for me,
even though we're supposed tolike crave that.
I like one-on-one conversations.
(35:19):
And so that is one thing I'mlooking at.
It's almost a bit overwhelmingfor my nervous system to like
expand into community and tofind the space for that because
of how I've operated.
I've never said this before on apodcast, what I'm about to say,
but I, and the light just wentout.
SPEAKER_03 (35:39):
It's okay.
SPEAKER_01 (35:40):
Hello.
Symbolic.
We can do this.
SPEAKER_06 (35:44):
The darkness of light.
You will stay in the dark withthis thought.
I will not let you bring it intothe light.
SPEAKER_01 (35:50):
Jeez, I know.
If
SPEAKER_06 (35:51):
it makes you feel any better, we often get the,
I've never said this before.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (35:57):
I've never said this before on a podcast, but you
think of unique journeys and ifyou go back again into your past
and your patterns and how yousee the world and how you
perceive relationships andcommunity.
I've never been married before.
Relationships, you know,intimate relationships have been
something, again, theunconscious pattern.
I'm safer on my own becausethat's what I know.
SPEAKER_02 (36:18):
And
SPEAKER_01 (36:19):
I've always kind of chosen that hero's journey,
alchemist path.
And there's a season coming ofcalling in someone to do this
with in this second half oflife.
And so what's interesting aboutmy story, and I'm also open to
kids too, which, you know, I'm51.
Why not?
Like, it would only make sensefor me to like make a family and
(36:41):
have a bunch of kids because Ialways thought I wouldn't.
The story I tell myself is thatpeople, maybe they're young and
they get into relationships andthey don't really know who they
are and they don't even know theperson they're with.
And then somebody wants tochange more than the other.
And so I'm going to just say oneof two things happens.
The two people decide they'regoing to grow together and it
just becomes this beautifulthing that started out as maybe
(37:03):
not very aware and then becamelike really beautiful.
Or one person goes and then itjust doesn't work out.
And then you maybe try it againthe second time and maybe you
get it right the second timemaybe not or other people maybe
they wait till their 30s andthen they they're more
self-aware and then they findtheir partner and here I am like
bumping up against I don't knowtime like oh my gosh I'm 51 what
(37:28):
have I been doing like I've beenon this remarkable journey but
like yeah there's just a levelof self-awareness now of well
I'm either gonna do this thingon my own for a bit because of
who I am and or I'm going tocall someone in that's gonna
match where I'm at.
So I'm doing the work to beready for that possibility.
Like I said, I've never saidthat publicly.
SPEAKER_03 (37:47):
So it's not just cold plunges and planes.
This is another one of thoseedges.
We've learned about a few otheredges.
What I'm hearing in your answerto Melissa's question, and I
think it's a beautiful answer,is that if we start to look at
the places that we've beenafraid to look, that is going to
(38:08):
shine a light on what the nextthing is.
I don't know if the answer isalways to jump out of the plane
or to get into the cold plunge.
(38:41):
Like we think
SPEAKER_06 (38:42):
about the journey and destination.
And so often we think aboutwhat's next as in professional
accomplishments, right?
Launching the business, it's theprofessional pivot.
And what you spoke to in what'snext was all relational.
It was partnership andcommunity.
And maybe those will havesomething to do with business,
(39:05):
but perhaps not at all.
SPEAKER_03 (39:06):
But I actually think that that connects back to this
idea of the masculine and thefeminine that you brought up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(39:41):
think in that way.
Like we have no idea what arelationship for you or
accessing community would openup in your professional life.
But we always think outside in,not inside out.
SPEAKER_01 (39:52):
My biggest challenge around the community aspect has
been, you know, finding thatfit.
I've tried some men's groups andagain, maybe it's me, but like I
would sit there sometimes and belike, I don't think so.
This doesn't feel like the rightfit.
So then I kind of go back tolone wolfing a bit.
SPEAKER_03 (40:08):
I don't know if you've heard of human design,
but I'm a human design reader.
From the perspective of humandesign, and if you've never
heard of it, there'ssimilarities to astrology and
numerology and things like that.
We talk about community a lot onthis show, and I think it's
worth noting that at least fromthe perspective of the work that
I do, not everyone is meant forcommunity in the same way.
(40:31):
Community can look like many,many different things.
And I love that you said, I'mbetter in one-on-one
conversations.
I think that's totally valid.
Some people, when I givereadings, they are They are here
to have a certain amount ofseparateness and autonomy.
Literally, there's a gate inhuman design called the gate of
aloneness.
And it's there to help protectyour energy so that you can be
(40:55):
of service and be properlyboundaried.
That's one reason for it.
But also because in order to behealthy in community, we also
need to have a strong sense ofself and be self-actualized and
know that everybody serves aunique purpose.
We really are here to bring ourunique gifts forward and then
work together and collaboratetogether.
(41:17):
We are better together thanmaybe on our own because we're
all lifting each other up andbringing the skill sets that we
might lack someone else bringsto the table and it can be a
really beautiful thing.
But I think it is also abeautiful thing to be on that
journey on your own and developyour sense of self and learn who
you are and you're probably aleader and that's another reason
(41:37):
why people are given thatenergy.
It's difficult to be thevisionary and be enmeshed in the
group at the same time.
So I just wanted to say that tonot negate your instincts, that
maybe there's a reason you'vebeen walking the solo path and
it's a beautiful thing.
And maybe it's also a season tolearn what community means to
you and both are simultaneously
SPEAKER_01 (41:59):
okay.
Maybe you two can help me definethat for me.
SPEAKER_06 (42:02):
And we see that all the time in Nova because most of
the people, the women that comeinto our community are, I'd say
like 40 to 65.
And so often They're walkinginto our room and saying, Take
(42:41):
some time to find the so good.
(43:12):
And so I think when we thinkabout starting to cultivate it,
it really is just one reallynice, meaningful, soul
nourishing relationship at atime.
And it's perfectly okay.
And I love Jess's gift withhuman design.
And I actually have beenthinking this since the
beginning of our conversationthat I hope you get a reading
with her.
I send every human being I knowto Jess for this because I think
human design is the tool thatmakes you feel the most seen and
(43:35):
normal for every single way thatyou are, where you're not like,
something's wrong with me.
I'm a lone wolf.
It's like, nope, that's actuallyexactly how you're supposed to
be at however we arrive andwhenever we arrive at this
desire, it's right on time.
SPEAKER_03 (43:48):
And I think it's a beautiful thing going back to
just looking at our growth edgesand our discomfort to regardless
of whether you feel like a lonewolf or you feel like you're
someone who's natural incommunity, we all have barriers
to connection and vulnerabilityand the willingness to be seen
and known deeply.
I think so many people listeningto this are going to relate to
(44:09):
this, to just have the bravery,the courage, talking about
emotional risk to spend time inthose questions is I think a
really profound thing.
So good on you.
SPEAKER_01 (44:20):
Let me, yeah, let me share something off of that.
I'm in a season right now where,and I'm getting coached in, he's
a coach slash therapist, formerrabbi in a past life, very wise,
wise soul.
And when I go in and this allstarted three months ago, my
father was diagnosed with stagefour cancer and in March.
SPEAKER_03 (44:41):
I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (44:43):
Thank you.
And I got on a plane and flewdown to Florida to get him.
He was alone and not in a greatsituation.
I intuitively knew this was nota good situation and it wasn't
going to go well if he stayedthere.
So on March 28th, I brought himback to Colorado.
And so I went from being to nowI'm primary caregiver for my
(45:05):
father, who is a wonderful, nicedude, but he didn't raise me.
And so we have a reallyinteresting connection that now
I'm taking care of someone thatin many respects didn't show up
for me.
And what I've been bumping upagainst, and this is, you know,
the human side of me, the coachis supposed to have it all
(45:26):
together.
I'm noticing a couple of themes.
The more that I keep growing andevolving, I'm actually noticing
a lot of judgment coming up.
I'm noticing a lot ofcomparison.
So, you know, all the cliche islike comparison is the thief for
the joy and judgment takes youout of the flow and I'm supposed
to be the zone coach and yet I'mnoticing those edges are coming
(45:49):
up like crazy for me right nowand it's painful it's
uncomfortable I don't even knowwhat to do with it sometimes and
then the third theme so judgmentcomparison and then the last is
being seen you mentioned that
SPEAKER_02 (46:00):
yeah
SPEAKER_01 (46:01):
and when I see if I get emotional or not but when I
go in and I sit with my coachand there's something about this
room I sit in this room and itell him my stuff and like the
tears and the emotion and all ofthis pent-up stuff is coming out
but i feel fully seen by him andi was at a speaking event last
(46:23):
week and you talk aboutcommunity it's this incredible
community it's called impact 11there's like 300 speakers and
everyone's hugging andhigh-fiving and we're in it
together and we're growing and isee how everyone's so friendly
everyone's like together andlike you mentioned i i've met
those one-on one people, but Ialmost feel like how are these
(46:44):
people friends with everyone?
And on LinkedIn, they're likeposting group selfies.
How are these people like livingtheir lives and staying in touch
with these people?
Gosh, how are they doing this?
And I remember stepping out ofthe room.
It was like a quick break andthen it bled into another talk.
And I met up with one of thepartners who ironically, his
(47:04):
theme of what he talks about iscalled made with love.
And he's one of the guys inthere that I just feel so
connected to.
and I was kind of going throughsomething and he just held space
for me and so in a season whereI feel like I'm not being seen
by many in a lot of situationsor not understood I have these
two tangible examples of thiscoach that's seeing me every
(47:26):
week and this person that's inthe group that like held space
for me when I was going througha really hard moment and so it's
just this paradox right now forme of like seeing and unseen
judgment and like how do I letgo of this and It's a lot.
So I guess I'm getting my owntherapy session in this podcast
(47:46):
today, telling you all thingsthat I've never shared before.
SPEAKER_03 (47:50):
I so appreciate your vulnerability and especially as
coaches.
And this is what I find sointeresting is that your work
now is actually seeing peopleand you had the experience, if
we go back to your brother for amoment, of the power of seeing
someone and holding space forsomeone and how it transforms
(48:10):
And yet even when we know thatand we serve that role for other
people, and I love that you'rebeing so honest as a coach
because the three of us arecoaches in this space and we
know that we don't have our shitfigured out all the time.
(48:40):
that in return.
Am I allowed to go back, Mo, ordo you have a question?
I am the boss of this show.
You know what, Jess, I
SPEAKER_06 (48:47):
trust you.
You do whatever you
SPEAKER_03 (48:48):
want, girl.
Okay.
I'm just really curious aboutthat moment for you, that moment
with your brother where you saidhe overdosed and then that was
it.
You made the switch.
And I think in the moment,though, even though that's what
happened, what occurredemotionally for you in that
moment that allowed the switchto happen?
(49:10):
I
SPEAKER_01 (49:11):
don't know how much emotion it was as much as it
was, okay, I've been training ona tennis court since I was four
years old solving problems.
I know how to get shit done.
I know how to make it happen.
I can get this to go in theright direction.
I can lead through this.
So, and I think it also speaksto where I was at in my life.
(49:34):
And I mean, if you look at likegenerational trauma in our
lineage, like what are thechances you live a life where at
33 years old, you play protennis for 11 years and then you
see your brother lyinghelplessly on the floor and your
father and your stepmother arenot able to kind of put that
together to help him.
(49:55):
And I take on that role.
SPEAKER_02 (49:57):
And
SPEAKER_01 (49:59):
then fast forward 18 years and I'm getting on a plane
and I'm flying down to go pickup my father to take care of
him.
So interesting.
Go in the annals of history andAnd try to find another story
where I am the chosen one or theleader, or I'm supposed to heal
this trauma in my family.
(50:19):
And I literally have tried tolike fix or save two people in
my family that are men.
And I have my own stuff I'mworking through around the
divine masculine and likeproviding and protecting, like
feeling like I can take care ofa family.
It's a lot.
It's a lot.
Like if someone wants to hangout with me and like like, help
(50:41):
me work through this.
Cause it's like, I'm goingthrough it.
And yet I know that on the flipside, obviously when I'm
coaching people, I'm able todraw on all of this to help
them.
So in that moment, I don't,there was probably fear, but
there's more like when you'redown four or five, this is
trivial, but you're down four orfive in the third set and you
got to hold serve.
(51:02):
What you do is you take 25seconds between points.
You take a deep breath, you getyour strategy, you trust your
serve and you freaking go forit.
And that's what I did with mybrother figure it out later you
know if you fast forward he goesto prison we transform I
shouldn't say we he transformsprobably we well yeah so just
want to try to keep my ego outof it but he transforms and then
(51:24):
he gets out of prison and he'slike a house on fire in terms of
what he wants to do and all theideas he has and one thing I
remember is that very early on Igot wind that he was drinking
alcohol when he got out ofprison and I looked at him and
I'm like like Bad idea, jeans.
Like, no, that's not a play.
That's me.
That's me.
The responsible one.
(51:45):
Like, we're not going to pushthose edges there.
We're just not going there.
But he did.
And at the time I let it go.
I thought, well, you know what?
Maybe he can handle it.
You know, there's certain peoplethat can, you know, I didn't
know.
So, so we went on this journeythe next three years, really
working to build him up.
And he went so fast up in theworld and he learned business
(52:08):
coaching online.
I got him into the marketinggurus.
I mean, anyone who could be adrug dealer and successful in
that world and navigate gangsand navigate prison can probably
figure out sales and likegrowing a business.
So he did that.
And then I mentioned the alcoholbecause about two and a half to
three years after prison wins aspeaking contest, he gets a TEDx
(52:29):
talk.
He's on the stage doing a TEDxtwo and a half years out of
getting out of prison.
And about three months afterthat, he ran into an old drug
dealer and for some reasondecided to buy drugs and use
drugs again.
SPEAKER_02 (52:42):
And,
SPEAKER_01 (52:43):
you know, as connected as my brother, I was a
mentor.
I was looking up to him.
He would always say, Jeff,you're my best friend.
We were brothers, but like I wasthis father figure to him.
And then when he started using,our connection just went like
that, you know, it wentcompletely different directions.
And it got really bad, so badthat he overdosed two and a half
(53:03):
years ago and he died.
And so that journey of seeinghim lie on, thank you, seeing
him lying on on the floor whenhe was 17 and you fast forward
15 years and he's lying on afloor alone in a room and he
died.
And yeah, it's like, this ispart of my why.
He's in my keynote, he's in mystory.
(53:26):
It's a big humanizing factoraround my journey.
Yeah, there's a lot to squeezein there.
SPEAKER_06 (53:33):
Yeah, so much deep healing happening.
I mean, that's still so recentand then to have your dad
re-emerging and...
Just bringing that up of like,you're like 18 years later,
here's my dad andsimultaneously, there's just so
much to unpack.
And I'm very sad that we need towrap up.
SPEAKER_01 (53:49):
One thing I want to say about that.
Yeah, please.
I don't know if I'm going toshare this link with him, but,
you know, talk about seen andunseen, like your father, when
you feel like he can't see you.
It's the worst.
And he's living with me as he'sgoing through cancer.
And there's a love there, butlike to not feel like...
(54:10):
you're ever gonna be seen andit's in your face.
It's like, it's a lot.
SPEAKER_06 (54:14):
Yeah, it's so much.
And simultaneously, oh, I justwanna talk to you for so long.
You're also getting thejuxtaposition of being so deeply
seen by these other men.
And so I have no doubt that thiswill all make sense one day of
the timing of all of it.
But when we're in it, it's like,this is so confusing.
Like, why now?
(54:34):
Why is this happening?
SPEAKER_03 (54:35):
Yeah.
There's a really importanttakeaway for me that I'm
hearing, and this was a reallydifficult lesson in my life,
that as someone who is inclinedto be of service and is inclined
to make a difference and has aninstinct to save people, there
is also this level of acceptancethat we learn the hard way that
(54:59):
one, we can't save people whodon't want to be saved, but also
some people will never changeand they might not be what we
need them to be.
And there is this painfulreality Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_06 (55:40):
But the more that I have been deeply seen by people
in my life, I actually don'treally need it.
Right.
And that just, that took me 10years to feel calm in my system
with my family.
They're alive and so it's adifferent journey, but it took
(56:02):
me 10 years of working on thatto be so seen with myself and
then to not need it from them.
Right.
it's like a whole freakingpainful zing experience that
SPEAKER_03 (56:16):
yeah it's often when we let go of the need to be seen
by the people who can't see usthat the people who see us can
see us
SPEAKER_01 (56:24):
and there's something to be said again about
out of sight out of mind like ifyou're 2,000 miles away from
your parents who don't see youlike it's good but when you see
them every day and you walk in aroom and you're like this is how
our relationship is and there'sno Like there's nothing there to
like, it's very confronting.
And that's why the judgment andthe comparison and the what the
(56:46):
heck is going on.
That's my work is like to be init.
And again, we know as coaches,what a gift on the positive side
to be able to say, you know, aclient's working with you and
you have an experience that'smaybe similar or you can relate
to that can make a differencefor them.
SPEAKER_03 (57:03):
What a beautiful moment you're in, Jeff.
I know it's hard, but thank youfor being so honest.
SPEAKER_02 (57:09):
Thank you.
Thank
SPEAKER_06 (57:10):
you.
Yeah.
Thank you for being here andthank you for your vulnerability
and
SPEAKER_03 (57:15):
such a beautiful, unexpected conversation.
And I'm really glad that we hadthat.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (57:20):
Yeah.
It wasn't the normal, it wasn'ta normal podcast of talking
about the journey and what youdo now and not usually want
SPEAKER_06 (57:26):
it to be actually.
I'm like, well, let's have theconversation that you haven't
had before.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (57:31):
Well, that's what we're doing.
Thank you.
So thank you.
All right.
All right.
SPEAKER_03 (57:36):
Lots of love.
Thank you for being here.
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (57:40):
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
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