Kelly Mann: Turning Hardship into Adventure — Resilience, Self-Acceptance, and the Simplicity of Joy - Inner Rebel

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melissa (00:50):
This is a very, very special episode that I've been
bawling my eyes out preparingfor, because our guest, kelly
Mann, and I have been friendsfor 22 years.
Life has been a shit showlately for her, as she's been
building her beautiful empirebut navigating so much that you

(01:15):
never really expected to happenin your life.
I cherish you.
I cherish who you are.
I cherish our friendship.
I cherish what you're doing inthe world and the difference
that you're making and the wallsthat you're busting down every
single day by who you're being.
None of it surprises me, becauseif anyone was going to do it,
it was going to be you, but I amjust so grateful to get to have

(01:39):
this conversation with you, toshare you with Jessica and to
share you with our audience.
She is the CEO and co-founderof On It Minor.
Since its release in 2021, onIt Minor continues to streamline
the employee benefit plan auditfor CPA firms across the
country.
Kelly also is a breast cancersurvivor and a mom of three
amazing children.
So welcome, welcome, kelly.

Jessica (02:02):
Thanks for joining us, Kelly.

Melissa (02:03):
Thank you.

Jessica (02:04):
I really want to dive into all of the things, but also
you two and your friendship, alittle bit, just to give some
context, maybe, to our listeners.
I know that in preparing forthis, melissa was just texting
me constantly and so emotionaland so excited.
So can you take me back 22years to meeting each other?

(02:25):
I would love to know, kelly,what Melissa was like back then
and then vice versa.

Kelly Mann (02:32):
Yeah.
So, oh God, melissa and I it'sreally weird for me to call her
Melissa.
Can I like say your name?
You can call me Mo.
It's fine Mo Mo, But weactually met maybe the first
week of college.
We were both 18.
We came from respective stateslike Nebraska and Ohio and met
in Florida at college.

(02:52):
She lived in the floor below mein the dorms our freshman year,
but we really didn't hang outother than like know who each
other were.
Right, it wasn't until aboutsenior year.
Well, he actually became reallygood friends with my best
friend at the time And then mybest friend ended up moving back
to New Jersey and Mo just kindof split into her place And

(03:15):
that's when we really startedbecoming close friends.
How long did you live together,rooming together?
Two years.
Okay so you saw all the things.
Yeah, we had noresponsibilities and so, like
Thursday night, friday night,saturday night, we went out to
the bars and had a few too manydrinks.

Melissa (03:34):
She helped me study for my CPA exam at the pool And
remember like you were studyingfor some like the tax part of it
, And I was like I can't believeyour brain has to remember this
stuff Like this is mind numbingfor me.
But we were flashcarding at thepool in the afternoon.

Kelly Mann (03:50):
I mean, we really kind of grew into our
independence together.
at the same time, I feel likeOh yeah, absolutely.

Jessica (03:56):
What was Mo like at 18?

Kelly Mann (03:58):
She was everywhere A ball of everything.
She still is a ball ofeverything.
So the same, i'm an introvertand I usually have one or two
good friends, so all of my otherfriends were like off of Mo's
tentacles.
She would just take meeverywhere, but I rarely hang
out with people outside of Mo.
I feel like I was most tagalong everywhere And I really

(04:20):
probably kept her down to earthbecause I always called her out
on things.
True, like Mo's Doc, you'rebeing too much.
You're too much for me rightnow, yeah.
But when you get Mo one on oneand she listens and she speaks
her voice and she appreciatesthe ordinary, i would say Thanks
, can you expand on that?

Jessica (04:35):
But it's appreciating the ordinary me and I love that.

Kelly Mann (04:38):
You can just be sitting on the couch watching TV
and you can have fun with her.
Yeah, something simple in yourlife could happen and she's
going to be your biggestcheerleader, even though it
doesn't seem like a big thing,because she knows that to you
Like oh, your daughter got an Aon her math test when she's been
struggling.
That's ordinary to me, butshe's still going to like be
your cheerleader for it.
She appreciates how big theordinary things are in life And

(05:00):
it doesn't have to be like shegoes on trips and she goes to
Costa Rica and posts all thesegreat things and it's really
cool, but she also doesn'tneglect the fact that she went
on a walk down the block withher son.

Melissa (05:12):
Yeah, i'm going to cry again.
That's funny, oh, thank you.

Jessica (05:16):
Kelly, that's beautiful .
That's a beautiful observation.
I think that's really true.

Melissa (05:21):
Okay, mo, but this is not about me.

Jessica (05:24):
I was going to say what was your impression of Kelly
Well?

Melissa (05:28):
so Kelly has always been the same person.

Kelly Mann (05:32):
I think you have too , i know.

Melissa (05:34):
We're just more mature.
The thing about you is that youhave never compromised your
authenticity.
You have been a truth tellerfrom the moment I met you,
almost to the point where you'relike, could you just lie to me?
like a little bit And you've,but you've always been that way.
You've always stayed true toyour voice.
I don't feel like you've everbeen afraid to be you from the
second I met you And I knowthat's probably not entirely

(05:56):
true because we're human beings,but you have a way of showing
up in the world that invitesother people to be themselves
too.
One of the things that I wasreally reflecting on as I was
doing my research on you whichis so funny, but I was like,
even though you're this bad assCEO who's changing the entire
industry for CPAs, you're likeout of office message is the

(06:20):
funniest shed I've ever read.
It's so authentic.
You're in a pretty masculinedominated industry.
The way you, which you'reshowing up with even these men,
it's like you're not toningyourself down for anybody and
you're really just lettingyourself be you, and I love the
interview that we were listeningto this morning.
That guy was so touched by yourheart and the way in which
you're so committed to living inaccordance with your core

(06:41):
values and not making choicesout of fear, even if you never
built a company.
It's cool, but it's not eventhe coolest thing about you.
You're just such a differencejust by being you on
apologetically, and I think thatis the essence of inner rebel.
That's the whole thing.
That's the whole point of lifeis to just be you, and so that

(07:01):
is my experience of you And thatis why I love you to the core,
because you don't have abullsh** bone in your body.

Jessica (07:09):
I ask about that because I saw, as Mo Melissa was
talking about you, i saw someof your reactions to what she
was sharing with you.
So I would love to get intothis truth teller piece of who
you are, because I saw you kindof process like not always.
So I'd love to know what arethe parts that you feel you have
had to sort of overcome andwork through in order to meet

(07:30):
yourself.
And also where do you thinkthis sort of innate truth
telling has come from?
Did you grow up around that oris that just built into you?

Kelly Mann (07:40):
It's funny because she's like you didn't care what
anybody else thought of you, youjust were yourself.
But for a long time growing upI felt like no one liked me.
Because of that, i didn't knowhow to not do that, like it was
just for me, and I think that'sone of the reasons why I say,
yeah, i have one or two friends,but in reality I don't.
I now know because of what Iwent through.

(08:00):
I have this ginormic supportsystem of people that like me
and luckily, and appreciate me,but so many times I've just
spoken my truth or what I saware called people out and they
don't appreciate it because Ihad to learn how to deal with
class.
I think.

Jessica (08:14):
I think you're saying something so important.
I want you to keep going, but Ijust I love what you're sharing
.

Kelly Mann (08:19):
I just tell it and then like some people could take
that Moe could take that, somepeople cannot take that, and
just they'd be like why are youfriends with Kelly?
I don't get it.
I don't get her Like she's mean, she's rude, she's hard to work
for.
But it's funny because afterMoe and I kind of went for a
separate state and started ourcareers and everything, i was
told over and over every year inthe male dominated world I'm

(08:42):
sure you guys have heard thisTry not to be such a bull.
In a China shop because I askedquestions, i said I don't agree
with that And I always wantedto do things different if I
thought there was a better way.
And I always spoke my mind andI heard that over and over and
it came to like I'm not a goodperson.
People don't like, people areintimidated by me and it really

(09:05):
sucks to feel like you're notgood with people.
And I was depressed for probablysix years prior to quitting my
job I would say the last sixyears.
I gained 60 pounds.
I never really did anythingoutside of just my husband and
my kids And I had this epiphanyafter about 10 years of hearing
this that I'm okay with being abull, but I'm not okay living in
a China shop And I think ittook me having children to

(09:30):
realize how unimportant otherpeople's opinions are, because
you don't want your children tolive by other people's opinions.
My oldest daughter she hasautism and she doesn't care
about many things And I'm soproud of that.
Why am I not living my lifethat way?
And I think that I couldn'tgain the confidence I needed

(09:50):
until I had those kids and I hadto show up for them.

Melissa (09:53):
It's so interesting because we do say, like speaker
voice be your truth in a worldwhere nobody wants that.

Kelly Mann (09:58):
Yeah, there's absolutely people that don't
like me, or at least that's howI perceive it.
I think there's a lot more thatdo appreciate what I'm doing,
and I just had to open my eyesto that instead of focusing on
the naysayers.

Jessica (10:11):
You're just saying so many things that are so
important and I just want tobreak it down just a little bit.
Melissa's actually quoted you anumber of times the bull in the
China shop.
I love it, so I just want tounderstand, or help our
listeners understand, more ofwhat that actually means to you.
My sense is environment matters, like where you choose to be

(10:31):
and where you choose to show up.
if the people around you aren'tseeing you or getting you or
responding to you, then maybethey're not your people.
Is that what?

Kelly Mann (10:39):
you mean, it wasn't anything that I was doing wrong,
it wasn't anything about mypersonality, it was the culture
that I was in.
The firm is a good firm andpeople thrive there and they
treat their employees very well.
It's just the whole time Ididn't realize that that was my
entrepreneurship going up.
I had no idea It wasn't me.

(11:01):
It was where I stuck myself.
It didn't have the courage tomove outside of there because I
had kids and I needed the nineto five and I had the salary and
all the good things that makeyou feel safe.

Jessica (11:13):
The other thing that you said that I just want to
reflect back.
We're here having conversationsabout what it is to meet your
inner rebel and access yourtruth and live your authenticity
out into the world.
I think a component of thatthat we all have to accept about
life and living our truth isthat not everyone is going to
like our truth and not everyoneis going to like us.

(11:35):
That comes with the territory,but we also want a sense of love
and belonging and community andsafety.
I think what's interesting tome about what you shared is you
could tell that you weren'tgetting the response from people
that you wanted, that youweren't feeling like you were
fitting in, and yet you alsocouldn't deny your truth.

(11:55):
I'm interested in that.
And what was happening insideof you?
Was it like you just had noawareness or ability to repress?

Kelly Mann (12:05):
it.
Yeah, you know, it's funny, Ihaven't ever said this to
anybody but my sister's.
But my oldest daughter hasautism and as I was researching
that and in that world I waslike there are a lot of factors
that I feel like I meet.
I wonder if I'm not in some wayon that spectrum also and just

(12:26):
truly don't have that filter.
I don't know.
Another thing is that growing up, my parents I mean the way that
they raised us they never putus down, They always cheered us
on and if we asked questionsthey told us the truth.
My dad had me selling flowersin his shop at 10 years old,

(12:46):
learning how to talk to otherpeople a business setting and
you have to be a little bit morehardcore in a business setting.
At least you did in the early90s.
I think that also helpedbecause I saw all these adults
love the way that I was and Iwas getting good grades and I
was getting promotions at workand being asked to do these
things that other kids my ageweren't being asked to do, and I
think it's because of the way Iwas.
I should have a lot ofresponsibility and courage, and

(13:09):
so there's absolutely a positiveto it, but there's also a
negative in that.
some of my friends, like mypeers, were a little put off by
it, and it still is that way inmy life today.
I have a lot of people thathave more experience in me that
are my biggest cheerleaders, butthen I have people that are my
peers, that used to be reallygood friends.
Yeah, I consider them friends,but they don't really show up in

(13:29):
my life anymore and cheer me on.

Jessica (13:31):
Can I ask how you handle emotionally the moments
where you don't feel that you'rebeing received or seen, or what
have you done for yourself inorder to be okay with that?

Kelly Mann (13:45):
Actually, when I feel that way, i just retreat.
It's actually, i think, aweakness of mine.
I kind of shut down, i don'ttalk, i leave the situation.
I don't like the way that I'mfeeling, and if I don't like the
way that I'm feeling, i justdon't want to be there anymore.
And so I have and I know, mo,you do this, but I have an
executive coach that I thinkhelped me work through that like

(14:06):
, if it doesn't bring you joy,why are you doing that?
You can do a lot of things inlife, so why are you stuck in
the places that don't bring youjoy?
You don't want to talk to theneighbor down the street because
you don't feel good around them, you don't feel like you can be
yourself.
Just don't go down there andtalk to them.
There are other people in yourlife and those are the ones you

(14:26):
need to look at.
Don't worry about the peoplethat you don't feel comfortable
with or you don't feel likeyou're yourself with.
What a good coach.
At first you might be sad, butthe sadness that you have is
shielded by the joy that youhave from the people who do like
you, and all you have to do isfind one person.
That's like I believe in you.
Yeah, because they introduceyou to more people.

Melissa (14:46):
Yeah, when I love the permission you said it's a
weakness.
You're just hyper aware of theway that you're feeling and you
don't like it, which I wouldconsider a strength, because so
many people just shove it downor they're like I'll just force
my way into thinking that thisis okay And they just stay in
these cycles and thesesituations and with these people
for lifetimes.
I mean contorting yourself tofit in, yeah, and we all do it

(15:10):
right, but just to have thispermission of like you actually
get to follow your joy I knowwe're not going to show up in
every situation in our entirelives, like I am so joyful but
also be very diligent anddiscerning about who gets your
energy, who gets your voice, whogets your time, and I think
that's really critical becausethere's a lot of things in life

(15:30):
that are going to suck theenergy, suck the life out of us.
And we have to be so discerning, especially when you're
somebody like you who has thesebig ambitions and you really are
making a difference in theworld and you're getting more of
a public face.
The more that you are auditminor, you're exposed to a lot
of people now.
So a discernment is probably.

(15:50):
I'm curious is it getting moreand more critical for you to be
really hyper aware of that?
Or how is that, now that you'rea public figure?

Kelly Mann (15:58):
now That's funny because, like my personality,
when it was at a position ofsubordination, people didn't
appreciate it.
But when I'm in a position ofauthority, they didn't meet up
and they're like you're the bestCEO for such a strong female
because I'm all top, but if I'mnot, it doesn't come off that
way.
I'm hard, utterly unemployable.

(16:20):
Now is what I call people.
I have this word.
It's called brago.
I don't know if you've everheard of the word brago,
v-i-r-a-g-o.
The archaic definition isstrong female warrior.
The modern day definition islike nagging course, girl.
And I'm like when did thatstrong female warrior become the

(16:41):
nagging girl?
What happened in our society?
Because I am brago, i am thatnagging girl, but I'm also that
strong warrior to a lot of otherpeople.

Melissa (16:50):
I mean that's a very loaded question And in fact, the
mentor that I work with, sarahJanks, she has this whole course
that she teaches and it's abouthow the feminine got repressed
over time.
She teaches it from a sacredlens, but it's literally the
history of women and what'shappened over centuries of
strong female warrior beingthese authority figures being
sacred for our gifts to beingthe nagging bitch that no one

(17:14):
wants to be around.
That is not celebrated And Ithink that what's happening
right now is there's a big shifton a macro level.
It's like a return of thestrong female warrior, but in a
totally different lens.

Kelly Mann (17:27):
I haven't seen that tattoo.
A couple of months ago, anipple tattoo which we can talk
about while I'm getting nippletattoos, but the tattoo artist I
loved him, right.
He said something that reallylike was purple to me And he's
very political, but he saidsomething along the lines of I'm
just watching the feminizationof the United States, what?

(17:48):
And I'm like why is that bad?

Melissa (17:50):
No, he was tattooing nipples, you were just going to
start a fight in the middle ofyour nipple reconstruction.

Kelly Mann (17:55):
She's a good person.
He's doing it because hismother was a breast cancer
survivor and loves nipples too.
Just because you have opinionsthat aren't the same as mine
doesn't make you a bad person,Of course.
I get so many talks about thembecause we can connect on a
different level, But it's justfunny that everybody's seen it
on this macro level.
but it's tough to some peopleto bad thing.

Melissa (18:15):
We're interviewing some pretty conscious Yeah, they're
like really challenging thestatus quo on what masculinity
is, and I think that that's thebigger piece of it is that men
are suffering too and they'rebeing put in these like even
bigger, intense boxes andthey're being the bad guy, right
.
It's like the rise of feminineis like an F?
you to men, which I don't thinkis valuable.
But I'm curious, jess, yourthoughts on that too, because I

(18:37):
know we've been talking a lotabout that, oh gosh.

Kelly Mann (18:41):
What do you think when I heard feminization of the
US?
or a positive or a neutral?

Jessica (18:49):
We've talked about this before, melissa that I think
structures serve a time until weoutgrow them.
And I think we put structuresand labels to things to help us
classify and understand and makesense of our world.
And then, as we evolve inconsciousness and we start to
learn more, those structuresneed to evolve and shift and

(19:11):
change with the times.
And so I know there's a lot ofresistance to that, but really I
think what the fight is is forall of us to express our
humanity more fully across theboard, and I think that's among
women, i think that's among men,i think that's among everyone
who identifies in between ordoesn't identify at all.

(19:31):
I think we all just want to bemore human and get to embody and
express all qualities of ourhumanity, regardless of gender.
So there's resistance to that, ithink, because I think people
feel threatened.
I think they feel threatenedwhen they've disowned things in

(19:52):
themselves and they see itembodied in others.
Does that make sense?
If a man, for example, has notallowed himself to be truly
embodied and connected to hiscompassion and his sensitivity
and his vulnerability, thenwatching someone out in the
world who is embodied in thosequalities and expressing those

(20:14):
qualities is going to be atrigger, not because he doesn't
have those things within him,but he wasn't given permission
to feel those things, or hasn'tgiven himself permission to feel
those things.
I don't think there's afeminization.
I think there is a naturalevolution of us all
understanding that on a soullevel, we are actually the same

(20:34):
and equal, and sometimes, inorder to come back to equality,
the scale seems to shift or goto different extremes.
It seems that way, but reallyit's not actually happening.
Voices that didn't feel safe tospeak up in the past are now
speaking up, and no disagreement.

Melissa (20:50):
We're in for all agreement with you And that's
why we're here, and that is whywe started this podcast and that
is why we are bringing thepeople on.
that we're bringing on and thatis why we're having these
conversations, because we wantto normalize this.
Yes, it can be threatening, butit's also we want everyone to
win.
It's a win if everyone can bemore themselves.

Jessica (21:10):
It's all sort of coming full circle.
We go back to this quote of thebull in the china shop and that
we aren't going to belong toeverybody, and often the people
who are triggered by us arepeople who I think are
disconnected from their truth.
If they can't handle the truthor can't handle your truth, that
has more to do with them thanyou, i think.
I think what you said aboutlearning to speak truth with

(21:33):
class is an important thing tolearn.
I do.
I think we have to still besensitive, and not everybody
wants to hear it.
We can adapt and learn how tobe more conscious and how we
communicate, but I don't thinkwe fundamentally need to change
ourselves because someone elseis upset by us.
That's their stuff.
But it goes back to what yousaid Find the spaces, find the
people, find the communitieswhere they're all bulls and we

(21:58):
all get it and they're able tomeet themselves and meet you in
the same way.

Kelly Mann (22:01):
Yeah, and they're out there.
There's somebody for everybody.
There are some people that ownbusinesses and I'm like how are
you doing well, who are yourcustomers?
But they're successful.

Melissa (22:12):
There's something for everybody.
This is all about owning yourvision and owning your voice.
So, as you're meeting thisresistance in your career of
being in this China shop andyou're like I don't know that I
really want to be in this Chinashop, but you started to
identify this problem in themarketplace And I loved in the
other interview you said Istarted to own my vision.

(22:33):
When you said it it was like ohyes, i'm not going to give this
thing away to all these otherpeople.
I'm going to claim it, so tellus about that It was 10 years
ago.

Kelly Mann (22:43):
I was told, trying to be such a bull in a China
shop, i would come up with thesenew processes, new ways to do
things, and a lot of them weresuccessful, and there was one
that I wanted to change.
It was kind of late in mycareer at the firm It was the
same year that I last, but arethe year before maybe And they
said you know, i think that thisis a good idea, but I don't
think that anyone's going toimplement it if it comes from
you.
So I had to give this idea to amale counterpart.

(23:06):
He proposed it.
Everyone liked it.
He ended up implementing it.
This wasn't an overnight thing,right, this was like a
six-month thing, but thathappened to me And some of the
other things that I hadimplemented and changed and like
were really great for the firm.
I never got acknowledged now.
It was never even a thank youfrom the people that were being
impacted by it.
And so when I decided I didn'twant to live in a China shop

(23:27):
anymore and I quit my job, istarted my own CPA firm And all
I was going to do was audit 401kaudits.
It's funny that people don'task me why 401k audit?
And it's because it's the onlything that I felt confident
enough signing an opinion on.
It's not really good at them.
It's because they're smallaudits and women have this
confidence thing.
That's like I'm not good enough.

(23:48):
And it's the only thing that Ifelt good enough doing on my own
, and that's why I did that.
And so I started calling all thebig technology players in the
audit space saying what do youhave for employee benefit plan
technology?
And all of them said we don'thave anything.
We hung up the phone.
It was like great, have a niceday.
While it was in I think it wastwo weeks a representative from
every single company I calledhad called me back And they said

(24:10):
hey, we heard you wereinterested in employee benefit
plan technology.
So are we.
We just don't have an expertwith the vision.
And so I would talk to themmaybe 10, 15 minutes about what
I thought technology could maybedo in this space and how I copy
and paste for $300 an hour Andit's ridiculous, a monkey could
do this work.
And so then within three weeks,two of those companies had

(24:31):
scheduled the Zoom calls with me, and this was pre-pandemic
before.
Zoom was cool and normalizedright.
It was like a weird thing toget on camera with someone, and
one of them was the founder ofthe company, another one was
with the VP of products, so veryhigh up, and at that point I
was like, ok, hold on, if onlyone is my vision, i want to try
and own my vision, and so Icanceled the Zoom calls and I

(24:54):
Googled how to start a softwarecompany.
Oh my gosh.

Melissa (24:58):
I'm so proud of you It's a fucking ball.
It's just so ugh.
It's so great Yeah.

Jessica (25:04):
I want everybody listening to take notes.
I have never owned radar, sowhat was that?
moment It was never a thing inmy mind.
What was that moment?
Did that feel scary, or did itjust feel obvious to you that
that is the next step?
Or both.

Kelly Mann (25:18):
Both.
It felt like I was beingridiculous And I couldn't tell
anybody Oh, i love this, becausethey'd laugh at me.
Yeah, there were very fewpeople.
When was my husband?
But I didn't tell him untilprobably two or three weeks
after.
I Googled that.
But we were like, how much arewe willing to sacrifice for me
to look at this, to see thisthrough?
Like, are we willing to sellour house?

(25:39):
Are we willing to get rid ofNetflix?
Like, what are we willing tosacrifice?

Jessica (25:42):
Wait, did you say are we willing to give up our house
or are we willing to give upNetflix?

Melissa (25:46):
Is that what you just said?
There's so many, so many inbetween.
I love that so much, i know.
I'm so glad Jessica's gettingto know you.

Kelly Mann (25:53):
It's great There were very few people.
I told that first because Ididn't want to be laughed at,
because it was really a dream.
It just kind of fell into mylap and I didn't say no And he
closed the door on it.
I love that, but I don't wantto be late.
I had the space because I hadquit my nine to five job and I
had the space to dream.

Melissa (26:12):
Oh, i mean everything.

Kelly Mann (26:14):
Yeah, like I always had something to do.
I know how this time where it'slike I didn't have anything
going on for an hour and I wouldlisten to a podcast and go walk
my dog and dream and create inmy head When you're working for
someone else, they put into yourhead what you need to be
thinking about And when you getrid of that, it takes some time
to clear everything out.
Like you just realize how bigthe world is and how you can

(26:39):
move things.

Melissa (26:39):
I'm obsessed with you.
I love you.
There's so much gold in whatyou're saying and the idea of we
can't expect ourselves to haveour creative genius come through
when we're going going 9,000miles an hour, especially with
other people's ideas and agendas.
So creating space is socritical.
The fact that sometimes when wehave an idea, we do need to

(27:00):
protect it because if we getthat laughed at or if we get
those nos, it does stop us Soprotecting the baby.
And I was just talking to afriend about this who's
launching a business and she wasafraid to tell some folks in
her family And I said here's thething This is your business,
baby.
If you think about your realbaby, you wouldn't invite
everybody to the hospital tomeet your baby.
You wouldn't even let peoplemeet your baby in the first

(27:21):
three months of having that baby.
So sometimes we need to bereally protective over our
babies and only share them withthe people that we know are
going to give us a resoundinghell yes for what you're doing,
even if it feels so fuckingridiculous.
Because here's the thing aboutbeing an entrepreneur I think a
lot of it feels fuckingridiculous, like a lot of the
journey.
Oh, i didn't think.

Kelly Mann (27:43):
I would be able to do what I'm doing.

Jessica (27:44):
Yeah, everything Mo just said I love.
I'm going to start calling youMo Can.

Melissa (27:48):
I just call you Yeah, let's do it.

Jessica (27:50):
Everything Mo just said .
And so many people areuncomfortable in that middle
space, in the uncertainty, inthe unknown, so they leave a
situation and just want to fillit right away.
And what you just spoke to Ithink is so important and such a
part of the process and such agift that if you open yourself
up to the spaciousness ofuncertainty, that is the space

(28:12):
you get to dream and where newnewness is born from.
It's born in the unknown rightAnd then nothingness.

Kelly Mann (28:20):
Yeah, that you talk about operationally how you do
it, because finances are a bigthing.
Not everybody can just puttheir job right.
So that is why my husband and Italked about are we willing to
just get rid of Netflix or arewe willing to sell our house.
And my husband fully supportedme and said I'm willing to sell
the house In downgrade.
I grew up in a three bedroom,one bathroom home and we had six

(28:42):
people in there and we made itwork.
And I try not to be a goodperson Like it's not the things
that our kids need, it's thelove and the examples.
And so if he wasn't willing todowngrade the home and use our
finances to support me duringthis transition, i never would
have been here.
If all he was willing to do wascancel a Netflix account, i
probably would have never takenthe risk.

(29:03):
Now we didn't need to sell ourhome.
We actually just finished ourbasement.
It's beautiful.

Jessica (29:07):
Clarifying your priorities.
it sounds like Clarifying yourpriorities.

Kelly Mann (29:11):
And for your support system is the person you share
your life with has to be onboard with that.

Melissa (29:15):
It's not common.
It's not common.
I see it all the time of justthe fight that it is to get a
partner on board.
and you know, john, and I haveworked through our own stuff of
me doing my dreams, and I thinkit's a really big, important
conversation that so many womenare struggling with.
They've got this dream and theyjust need this.

(29:37):
I've got you, like I don't knowwhere we're going, but I've got
you, and so I think that justyou speaking that of the
significance that is, and alsojust yeah, what is your reality?
right, not everyone can affordto just quit and build their
dreams overnight.
At the time.
there's this middle ground oflike, how do I have my financial
security while still givingmyself space, while still

(30:00):
getting the support that I need?

Kelly Mann (30:02):
We went to a dream My husband quit his job and
started working at a new companyso we could have health
insurance.
Like it wasn't easy.
We definitely had to put thingsin place.
Yeah, It's not like I quit myjob and everything's great.
Like there was one point intime where I was like, am I
going to have to get a temporaryjob at Lowe's during the
holidays to be able to pay fordaycare?
And that was not below me.

Jessica (30:23):
My question is then what is the calculation in those
moments that you're making theTwisk and Reward, you know, when
you have a partner who's like,okay, i'm willing to live in
this uncertainty with you?
what are you actuallyevaluating?
Is it like my soul's joy oversecurity, the vision over the
safety right?
So what is it that both of youdecided?

Kelly Mann (30:45):
the vision is worth what we might have to give up.
You didn't like the way that Iwas treated and you didn't like
the culture that I was in atthat firm And he saw the impact
that it was having on me And forus it was my happiness, because
I wasn't the same person thathe fell in love with.
I don't think I wasn't theambitious go-getter.

(31:07):
I literally, when we starteddating, was applying to the FBI
and I got in.

Melissa (31:11):
Oh yeah, what?
Because that was like one of myfavorite moments of you, when
you like called me and you'relike, yeah, i left.
You have to tell the storybecause it was your dream to be
in the FBI.

Kelly Mann (31:20):
I went through your interview process to get into
the FBI.
I was at Dreamtons High Schooland I got in and I was there for
four days and I quit.
Why did you quit?
Because they realized now thisisn't for me.

Jessica (31:32):
Okay, We all just, let's all just like Kelly,
you're, you're.
how did you know?
How did you know it wasn't foryou?

Kelly Mann (31:39):
It was draining, i was so tired.
We had to spend two hourslearning how to write a damn
memo.
Like I know how to write memos.
I just saw like paperwork andchange to a desk Like it didn't
have any joy when I was there.
I don't know, it was that samething.
I wasn't happy and I'm like whyam I?

Jessica (31:58):
here.
I really hope everyonelistening has a notebook.
I know I'm going to listen tothis back and just take a whole
lot of notes.
Yeah, you were tuning into this, like the physical response
that you were having to it wasdraining you and making you
miserable and you listened tothat.
Yeah, Okay, it's a masterclassright there in the last 60
seconds.

Melissa (32:18):
Yeah, So we were talking about.
There's the tangible, like getout your Excel spreadsheet, map
out your finances, figure outthe real logistics of making a
choice, Which you I mean Ididn't do that Had I done that I
wouldn't have started either.

Kelly Mann (32:32):
I'm shocked by that.
I did not map out what aremermaid, the expenses and how
much we have in the bank.
That wasn't it?
No, I wouldn't have done it ifI had done that, And I knew, I
knew that I kind of kind oftrust myself in And I think I
said to myself all the time is,if this doesn't work, what is
the worst thing that couldhappen?
And it was well.
Either we move or I walked downthe street and get a new job

(32:56):
because I'm very employable.
I'm a CPA with 10, 12 years ofexperience And so CPA, I'm
probably more employable nowthan I was before.
But I knew I could get a job.
So the worst thing is we have asmaller house and I have a new
job, And is that really that bad?

Jessica (33:10):
There are so many people who come to me in the
work that I do, wanting to leavethe situations they're in and
are so afraid to quit or losewhatever sense of security they
have inside of that, and themost consistent conversation I
think I have with them isexactly what you said that worst

(33:30):
case scenario.
You're a competent human being,you're going to be okay.
Sometimes we just need to stepout If we feel so stuck where we
are.
We just need to know that, nomatter what happens, i'm going
to be okay And I know I have theinner resources and the
competency to meet whatever thesituation is and be okay.

Kelly Mann (33:48):
And it's funny because a lot of it is like
what's the worst thing thatcould happen?
I'm not dying, but then youfast forward three years of my
life and I was dying, and now,on the other side of it, i have
this completely different viewof how bad can it really be?
Maybe we should talk about thatnow.
Yeah, and it was when I wasstarting my journey.

Melissa (34:08):
Well, i would love for you to share your story And
before we jump into that, i justwant to say there's like what
you actually did was you got outof the story all the fear
stories, right, then that's thething that stops us from doing
it, and it's literally like thisis the actual worst case
scenario, not this story that mymonkey mind is making up around
it.
It's like this is the reality,because you can get stopped by

(34:30):
what if I don't make it, or whatif I fail, or what if I'm not
enough, and all thoseinternalize things.
we have to move, or I have toget a new job.
That's actually what'shappening here.

Kelly Mann (34:38):
Nope, and I put it on paper, you can live in your
head.
I never journal, i do not write, but I was a journey during
this period of time And I thinkgetting it out of my mind onto a
piece of paper like you canthink about all what's the worst
thing that could happen.
But when it actually comes outinto the world it looks
different.

Jessica (34:52):
And so you didn't actually conceive of what the
worst thing that could happenwould be.
And then something did happen.

Kelly Mann (34:59):
Once I Googled how to start a software company, i
did nine months of marketresearch to figure out.
I know there's a problem, or Ithink there's a problem to do.
The other people in theindustry that would be paying
for this also feel the same way.
And what exactly is thatproblem I'm solving?
So I did that for nine months,talked to 45 CPAs around the
country, and then I finallyincorporated AuditMiner in
October of 2019.

(35:20):
Got my co-founder incorporated.
It started spending money tobuild the program, all of that
stuff.
Well, six months after Iincorporated it, it was April
1st of 2020.
And so that was at the verybeginning of the pandemic.
I had my second grader who washome doing remote learning, and
then my other two children werepulled out of daycare.

(35:41):
So I had the three kids at home.
There were seven, four and two.
At the time It was April 1stApril Fool's Day, because the
universe loved that And I wasdiagnosed with stage three
breast cancer.
So I had two companies becauseI had my CPA practice.
I already started right, firstat AuditMiner, and then I had
the three kids at home and myhusband was working.

(36:01):
I haven't even mentioned thisbefore, but the month before my
husband had surgery for a tumorthat ended up being benign, but
he ended up getting blood spots.
They moved to his lungs.
He had a pulmonary embolism.
Wow, at call 911, i was thereat home with him taken away by
the ambulance.
The kids saw they were cominghome from school.
So all of this is going on inFebruary and March And now the

(36:23):
hospital and the ER couldn'twash his on-cretches So it
couldn't work.
We were a one-income familyreally.
At that point He was going backto work on Monday, march 29.
The night before was a Sundaynight.
I got done working out.
I was taking off my sports braAnd I don't know why this
happened to me, but I grabbed myrest right here and it felt

(36:43):
like I was grabbing a cell phone.
It was that big and it was thathard.
I'm like what?
And so I go and I wake myhusband up and I'm like do you
feel this?
It's like, yeah, there'ssomething there.
Well, he was going to work forthe first time in five weeks.
The next day He couldn't stayhome with the kids.
I had to.
And so I called my parents andwe broke the seal of don't give

(37:05):
grandma and grandpa COVIDbecause you'll kill them, right.
So I'm like I don't have achoice.
I need someone to watch mychildren.
So my parents come.
We live about 30 miles away.
They come that morning at 8.30AM.
I go into my primary carephysician and she's like well, i
feel it, it's probably justdense breast tissue.
You don't have any breastcancer in your family, but let's
get a mammogram.
So I walk across the streetliterally across the street to

(37:26):
the hospital, Got my mammogramAnd they said, well, there's
something there, let's do anultrasound.
So then I go back and do anultrasound And then the
radiologist walks in with a boxof tissues And she's like I do
see something concerning.
I'd like to do a biopsy.
Because of COVID We're notreally doing much right now.
I can get you in 30 minutes.
Typically it takes two to threeweeks to get in for a biopsy.
I get in for the biopsy, i gohome around noon and I'm like

(37:50):
what the fuck is happening to mylife right now?
And so over the next two days Itell the people close to me
this is what's happening inevery single person and I'm
still mad about it.
Every single person is like oh,it's nothing.
99% of the time it's just deadstress issue.
You don't worry about it.
Why do you think people do that?
Keep a positive attitude?
I don't know.
They want to be nice and theywant to help you and they don't

(38:12):
want you to worry, but it's likeimpossible.
So it was Wednesday, april 1stat 1230 that I got a phone call
And I remember I was sitting atmy computer like this talking to
them.
My daughter is at the kitchentable doing her homework and my
husband just got home because wedecided he'd work half days and
I'd work half days so we eachcould work.
And I'm taking notes and I getoff the phone and I go into the

(38:32):
bathroom and I just tell myhusband to come here and he
comes in and he knew it wasn'tgood by the look on my face And
I remember I just dropped thefloor crying and he dropped to
the floor with me and justhugged me and I remember I was
just I don't think I've evercried like that, like I threw up
the toilet.
I'm like why is this happeningto me?
What is this?

(38:53):
What is my life going to looklike?
I'm not shut up for thisfinancially, care COVID, my
businesses, i can't do it.
That's how that happens.
And a week later I had a friendreach out to me that had had
thyroid cancer earlier in herlife And she said a quote that I
think you might understand isthat the difference between

(39:14):
hardship and adventure isperspective.
And I was kind of like, yeah,it is like people could already
say I've been through hardshipin my life.
I've never been throughanything like this.
I was so scared, i didn't knowwhat it would look like, but we
turned every little bit of itinto an adventure that we could.
So 24 days later I was going tostart chemo and I was terrified

(39:36):
.
And the night before, to turnit into an adventure, we had a
headshaving pizza party.

Jessica (39:41):
Oh my gosh.
It was like consciously turningit into an adventure which is
beautiful.

Kelly Mann (39:46):
Yeah, because it was scared of shit.
My kids were watching, yeah,and what do I want my kids to
see?
And so we ordered a bunch ofpizzas and my family, my little
bubble, was inside of my garageand my children helped shave my
head with my husband And thenoutside of the garage where,
like, my neighbors and friendscame but couldn't come by me
because of COVID, and so theywere outside of the garage

(40:06):
eating their pizza And we had aheadshaving pizza party and we
recorded it And it's honestly,one of my favorite videos of all
time.
When I watch it I still cry,but the joy inside of me.
We turned something really badinto something that my kids had
fun with and saw.
Mommy be brave.
Yeah, i guess that's been mylife ever since.
I'm going to give you a tattooright here with that quote.

(40:28):
I still live my life by it.
It's a hardship, or I can lookat it as an adventure and I
capitalize this shit out ofcancer, my story, building a
community, public speaking.
If there is anything good thatcan come from this, i am
absolutely going to be right ontop of that and take it in and
not feel sorry about it becausethat shit sucks, and you were
building your business at thesame time.

(40:49):
Yes, yes, i don't want to soundlike a superhero because Either
way.
Yeah, my parents ended upraising my children during the
20s.
One because I was too sick totake care of them and we didn't
have any care for them.
So my parents raised themMonday through Friday and they
brought them home one or twohours a week, if I felt okay,
and then they came home on theweekends when my husband was
home.
I would have a week when I wasreally sick and then I would

(41:09):
have a week where I could maybework four hours a day, maybe two
.
I worked about five to 10 hoursa week during COVID, i would
say, with breast cancer.
So I would take my laptop tothe infusion center.
I had to go by myself becauseno one was allowed with COVID.
So I would spend eight to 10hours at the infusion center
with my laptop and I literallywas just prospecting who might
buy AuditMiner like dockingpeople online And by the end of

(41:32):
treatment six months later, thehard chemo I had a list of about
1200 people that I wanted toreach out to.

Melissa (41:39):
Do you feel like being tapped into, like your future
and a vision Because I can'teven file them being alone
during that time and goingthrough what you're going
through, but to use that timetowards something you're
creating for your future on theother side of this, that's not
how it resonated in my mind.

Kelly Mann (41:57):
It was like just what's the next step?
one foot in front of the other.
I wasn't thinking big picture.
If I was thinking big picture,i wouldn't have done it.
I would have been paralyzedwith everything I needed to do,
and it was like this issomething I could do.
I got to figure out who I'mgoing to eventually sell this to
.
It's super boring.
By yourself getting chemo, youfeel fine, you feel sick a week
later, but during the actualinfusion, when nobody wants to

(42:18):
talk to you because they don'twant to bother you, when you're
getting chemo, you're so boredYou're just sitting there having
to go into your body that youcan't feel.
And so I was like what's thenext step that I can do to
occupy my brain?
And so half of it wasprospecting, half of it was
watching mindless shows onNetflix.
People are like, oh, designyour dreams and stuff, but be
careful, because you're going toscare yourself.

(42:39):
What is the next logical thingthat makes sense on this journey
?
And just focus on that.
And then, once you get thatfinish, you'll do the next thing
.
And that's kind of how I builtthe business one step at a time.

Jessica (42:51):
Can you share what was going on emotionally for you
through that?
I know it must have been amillion things.

Kelly Mann (42:58):
Anchor Sadness.
I was very scared.
I did a blog where I could geta lot of the feelings out, but a
lot of it was me thinking if Ineed to record videos for my
children, do they want them tohave one video every year for
their birthday?
Is it just one big video abouthow they make me feel and my
hopes for that?
It was a lot about what do Iwant to do for my children so

(43:20):
they can remember me if I die.

Jessica (43:23):
And how does thinking that way, or being forced to
think that way, change how youexperience life?

Kelly Mann (43:30):
It made me not feel bad about screen time.
It made me realize that qualityover quantity is key and that
my children were so young thatthey were not going to remember
the things that I did with them.
I know they were seven, fourand two.
They are not going to rememberthe things I did with them, but
I did feel like they were goingto remember the way I made them

(43:51):
feel, the things I did with them.
I couldn't do it for longperiods of time, but it had to
be at my full attention And soeven today, like my daughter and
I, maybe three or four times aweek, were reading the Percy
Jackson series.
He has dyslexia, he has ADHD, hehas a lot of the things, but it
makes him the superstar in theworld he lives in and my

(44:11):
daughter can relate to that.
And so we read the booktogether, just me and her in a
room, and then my son, like whenI take him to soccer practice
mommy, are you going to stay andwatch me?
You bet I'll watch you, buddyinstead of going to shopping and
are going back home, like it'sthe things that they want me to
do that I'm fully present doingI'm not on my phone watching him
play soccer.
So when he looks over at me, iwave and say good job.

(44:31):
So when I do show up, i show ita lot more, just not halfway.
It's not like yeah, i'll watchyou play soccer and be on my
phone too.
It's being more receptive.
What do they need me to do forthem?

Melissa (44:45):
This is such a valuable tool for every human And, i
know, for moms.
When you're trying to be in 10places at once, which I think
most people do anyway I knowI've spoken to several of my
girlfriends about this who arealso moms We get caught in this
quantity over quality rat raceand it really is the opposite of
quality over quantity.

(45:05):
And to really be able toembrace that so you're fully
present for those moments, is itseems like such a simple thing,
but it's not.
Yeah.

Kelly Mann (45:17):
And the other thing that I do is I outsource a lot
of stuff.
So I found a stay-out-home momthat just wanted a little bit of
extra money, you know, and Ipay her.
She comes over once a weekend.
She has all my laundry, Shehelps me clean up the floor, do
dishes, run errands, do returnsThe stuff that was just draining
for me because it was always onmy mental to the list and I
wasn't getting it done because Istill today do not have the

(45:38):
energy I had back then.
I still take long naps.
So it's being able to outsourcethings that don't bring me joy.
Like I'm really big on that now.
I still cook.
Cooking brings me joy.
You know, taking my kids topractice brings me joy.
But getting rid of the thingsfinding in your life that
doesn't bring you joy andoutsourcing those are getting

(45:58):
rid of them.

Jessica (45:59):
I'm so happy you said that.
I think a lot of people willgive themselves a lot of reasons
or stories why they have to dothose things.

Kelly Mann (46:08):
I operate my business that way too.
So AuditMiner it's justcompletely exploded.
I mean, it's beyond my wildestdreams how successful AuditMiner
is.
We have 13 employees.
Everybody was hired in 2022.
Off of customer revenue, we donot have investment.
People actually buy the productand use it.
It's great, but withinAuditMiner, i operate it the

(46:29):
same way.
So what are the tasks thatdon't bring me joy in AuditMiner
?
and I hire someone for that,and so I don't spend more than
40 hours a week working and I'mthe CEO and founder.
Most founders are like 60, 70,80 hours.
I don't do more than 40.

Jessica (46:45):
What would you say for people who might not feel they
can afford to hire out, thatwould even just be a small step
that they could take to startgiving up the things that are
draining them, not feeling good,not connecting them to their
joy.

Kelly Mann (46:59):
My first employee was a retired paralegal who was
my aunt, just wanted some extrahours and to help.
But she didn't care how much itpaid her, just wanted something
else to do.
And that was my first employeeAnd I gave her some of that work
at 15 bucks an hour.
That's how I started it.
If you don't have to start big,she literally worked probably

(47:22):
two or three hours a week forthem And it makes a difference,
but it was enough.
It made a difference because itfreed my time up to do stuff
that was higher value morereturn.

Melissa (47:32):
My dear friend Lindsay Murphy, if she makes fun of me
because she's like you wouldoutsource your whole life if you
could, Because I'm like, yeah,let's do it.
But also outsourcing might meannow this is if you have a
partner like hey, can you takeover the laundry, or like if you
invest in your community whereyou live, we have made our
community like family, And thatwas a big vision.

(47:55):
I was like we're going to havefriends that are like family and
we're going to take care ofeach other's kids, So we don't
all have to hire babysitters allthe time.
We can just say, hey, I'd lovea pile of children at my house.
Would you guys like to go out?
I would look at what are freeways in which you can ask for
help and support.
I know those are very specificto people with kids and spouses

(48:16):
and Jess, I know you're in adifferent scenario.
So what are free ways that youcan get support?
Because it doesn't have to costyou money.

Jessica (48:24):
And remembering that the thing that drains you
actually might give someone elsejoy.
I certainly could never imaginemyself as an accountant, and
that's something that you thriveat, so it's not necessarily a
burden for someone else, it canactually be a source of joy for
them, and that everybody gets todo the things that light them
up and support one another.

Kelly Mann (48:46):
And we had a crash force in my husband taking over
responsibility with cancerbecause he did everything.
That was a big crash force forhim to realize the load that I
was carrying.
He had to plan my son'sbirthday party when he was a
kindergartner and he wrote outthe invitations.
He booked a spa, he did all theRSVPs and we go to the birthday
party.
and two women came up to meseparately and they're like I

(49:08):
thought he was a single dad,because dad's don't plan
birthday parties for the kid.
The women do I don't like that.

Jessica (49:14):
I don't like that.

Kelly Mann (49:15):
And it was just like wow, they thought he was a
single dad.
I just laughed.
I was like, yeah, my husbandwas awesome.

Jessica (49:22):
Can you tell us where you are now in this cancer
journey?

Kelly Mann (49:25):
Yeah, So I had a really long cancer journey.
I ended up doing 18 months ofchemo, i did a double mastectomy
, i had an additional surgerybecause it ain't clear margins.
I did 33 rounds of radiationand then I entered a clinical
trial in Tampa Florida.
So I've flown back and forth toTampa Florida way too many
times over the past two and ahalf years.
It's for a vaccine to preventbreast cancer, so hopefully my

(49:48):
girls, when they get to be 20 or30, can take a vaccine and not
have to deal with what I dealtwith.
but it's a hard trial And I'vebeen doing that since 2021.
And I had my very last meetingearly March in Tampa and during
the physical of the okay, you'refree, yeah, you're done They
found a lump.
So that wasn't really March Andso since March that led to an

(50:11):
ultrasound which was like, yeah,there's something concerning,
but we don't want to hurt yourimplant, so let's do an MRI, we
have to do a biopsy because itlooks like it could be cancer.
And then I had my biopsy lastTuesday, where they punctured my
implant, got the tools stuck in.
It was a horrendous experience.
And then I found out lastThursday that it's not cancer,

(50:33):
it's scar tissue And soliterally last Friday, one of
the best days of my life I knewthat I made it to three years
cancer-free and it worked me.
The past month and a half I wasa wreck.
I didn't show up as a wreck,but inside I was a wreck.
Even starting the dishes washard.
Starting anything was hard,because what if I couldn't

(50:55):
finish it?
Congratulations.

Melissa (50:57):
That's a huge deal, thank you.

Kelly Mann (50:59):
That's a huge deal.
Yeah, it is a huge deal.
I know I went through thatreally fast, but it feels like
the past month and a half hasbeen a year long battle.
I just stress the toll, thespace that not knowing what your
future looks like physically.

Melissa (51:14):
You said you didn't show up like a wreck.
Where did you let yourself be awreck at all?
Or how did you navigate that,while trying to pretend that
everything was fine?

Kelly Mann (51:26):
There's definitely some retail therapy that I am
guilty of.
I lie on the Amazon or I do alot of coffee.
It's when I feel that way I wasworking maybe four, five hours
a day.
Any other half the day I wouldjust sit in bed and watch
Netflix and let myself be sad.
when I was by myself, i did notshow up erect to my kids.
I did not show up erect to myhusband necessarily, although he

(51:47):
knew, because he definitely dida lot more bath time and
bedtime by himself and nevermade me feel guilty.
Workwise.
I did not show up as a wreck,necessarily, but I wasn't being
as productive as I could havebeen.
But I'm the block.
I call the shots.
No one's going to question whatI do necessarily.

Jessica (52:04):
Sometimes, turning on Netflix and feeling you're sad
is courage, is bravery.
That's what it looks like.

Kelly Mann (52:11):
It's hard when you're there because you're like
I feel a lot of guilt aboutfeeling like this.
and I feel a lot of guiltbecause the dishes are piling up
and the laundry is dirty and myhusband's going to come home
and have to do so much work andI'm just sitting on the couch
vegging.
But I also know that if I givemyself this day, i'm going to
wake up tomorrow and feel better, and so, while it hurts me to

(52:35):
do it, i still do it, knowingthat it's temporary.

Jessica (52:39):
What have been the lessons, or even the gifts, of
your journey?

Kelly Mann (52:50):
I never say anything as a gift from cancer.
I don't like it when I talklike that because it's not.
I don't know, it's just a thinglike.
Cancer is no gift.
There's nothing good about it.
I know what you're saying and Idon't know how to phrase it.
Anyway, what are the things thatcame out of cancer that I'm
grateful for And I don't evenlike that?
It's this weird thing that Ihaven't figured out yet.

(53:11):
I'm still working through it.
I have new friends that Iwouldn't have had had I not had
cancer, like these very deeprelationships of people that
went through it the same time Ihave.
I appreciate my husband a lotmore.
I always appreciated him, iloved him, but there's just like
.
I know that he's got me.
I know that he's not going tomake me feel guilty about not

(53:33):
helping with 50% of thehousehold because he does more
than I do And there's a lot ofmom guilt with that, but he
doesn't make me feel that way.
I'm a lot closer with mysisters and my mom and dad, i
feel like because of it.
So I think the relationshipsreally make you a lot closer.
I don't get stressed out asmuch because of what's the worst
thing that can happen.
You're not dying, and that'spretty bad, and I've been there.

Jessica (53:57):
Everything else is kind of a walking part, yeah, and
I've also heard you talk aboutappreciating your birthdays and
appreciating the gift of aging.

Kelly Mann (54:06):
I actually get mad when people talk about oh, i'm
getting so old, i have threegoals, how can I hide this?
And it upsets me because I'mlike don't you know how lucky
you are that you get to be thatold and you don't have to worry
if you're going to be here nextyear?
I was in a spot where I didn'tknow if I would make it to
40-year-old and diagnose it 37.
And I will happily take on allthose wrinkles and gray hairs,

(54:31):
because what's the other option?
And is it really?
We all age, it cares.
I have fake nipples now, butfor the longest time I didn't
even have nipples.
I had my boobs amputated and Iuse the word amputated because
that's what it feels like.
And so physically I don't feellike I did before cancer and I
know I don't look the sameeither, but that doesn't bother

(54:52):
me because I know that thepeople don't love me for the way
that I look.

Melissa (54:55):
Hmm, so big Kel.

Kelly Mann (54:58):
Because they loved me when I was so bad you know
what I mean And like they didn'tscare me anymore, because the
people that you truly want inyour corner do not care what you
look like.

Melissa (55:08):
So much of what we do is in order to belong and in
order to feel loved, and societytrains us that if we look a
certain way, then we're morelovable or we're more valuable,
and I think it's just reallyreally valuable.
What your lived experience isthat they love who you are, not
how you look.
They don't give a shit if youhave nipples or not, if your
head's bald or if you have longhair, if you're 60 pounds

(55:30):
overweight or you're a size four, they're going to be on your
court no matter what.

Kelly Mann (55:35):
Yeah, i mean, my eyebrows didn't grow back.
I don't have eyebrows anymore.

Melissa (55:38):
And they're pretty light to begin with, you know
not existing.

Kelly Mann (55:43):
Like everything I do , i do it for me.
If I want to feel a certain wayin the morning, that's when I
put makeup on and dress up.
If I don't feel like that, idon't put makeup on and dress up
.
It's not something I have to doevery day, it's just is that
day do I feel like doing it?
Does it bring me joy that dayto spend the time on myself?
And the other days I'm like no,i'm good with no shower and
putting a cap on because I justdon't feel like doing it.

Jessica (56:05):
And that's okay.
You mentioned earlier that yougot the nipple tattoo and there
was a reason behind that.
Do you want to share that?

Kelly Mann (56:11):
When you don't have nipple, you look at yourself and
you reminded that you hadbreast cancer.
And so when I got these likefake nipple temporary tattoos
and I wore them for a few monthsand I was always tech mo in my
other girlfriend What do youmean fake nipple?
And I found myself not lookingat my scar, not looking at my

(56:32):
chest.
It was at a double stage And soI got the first round of nipple
tattoos but then I postponedthe second round because I was
like, well, i might have cancer,i might have to get my nipples
removed anyway, because theyhave to take the implants and
everything now too.
So I still have one moretreatment to do.
But that's why I got the nippletattoos is so I don't do a
double taken.
I'm not reminded of cancer allthe time Like I'm pretty.

(56:56):
I do not like cancer.
I'm mad at it still.
I'm sure one day it'll bedifferent, but I just feel like
it took so much away from me andit was not as an experience.
I'm not a big, pink, raw person.
I don't like going to thefundraisers.
I don't do the community events.
People have said, hey, thisperson has cancer, can I
introduce you to them?
And I've actually said you know, right now it's not good for me

(57:18):
, i don't have it in me to feelthe pain for them, that I'm
going to talk to them.
So I think one day it'll bebetter, but right now, like I'm
not a happy cancer person, i'm ahappy person and, yeah, i'd be
cancer, but I'm still mad at it.

Jessica (57:35):
Are there happy cancer people?
Because I think that rage is sovalid.

Kelly Mann (57:41):
It's different for everybody.
Yeah, i think some people enjoythe community they have
afterwards because they strugglewith different things after
cancers.
Everybody struggles withdifferent things, whether it's
physical, mental, emotional, andyou just find a way and you
find a community.
And for me, the community isthe CEO entrepreneurship, where

(58:02):
people see me as badass becausethey built this company while
navigating cancer And I'm kindof like the hell, yeah, that's
where I live.
Other people might still reallybe sad and depressed and scared
and they are with people inthat community that help them
deal with that.
But that's not where I can bebecause it just takes too much
out of me.

Jessica (58:22):
Can we talk about your life now?
You were starting this businessand going through your cancer
journey at the same time, withso much courage and resiliency,
and now you have thisextraordinarily successful
company.
So can we celebrate what lifeis now?

Kelly Mann (58:38):
You know, a lot of now is my husband and I dreaming
about what we want to do when Isell AuditMiner eventually or a
ridiculous amount oflife-changing money.
We dream a lot, you know, likewe want Airbnb.
It's how all of our friends andfamily can enjoy them all over
the country, and we want to stayin our house because we love
our school district and theneighbors.
Knowing that I'm more thanlikely going to have to swim

(58:59):
full of money, we livedifferently now.
I never used to buy used cars,but I had to recently get a new
car.
Except for a bad car accident,i'm fine.
Thank God Kids were not with me.
I bought a used car with 85,000miles.
Never would have done thatbefore, but I have this security
that the future is going to beokay and like I don't need to
impress anybody.
For a long time, the financeswere impressing other people and

(59:22):
maybe it's cancer, but I'mgoing to be okay in the future.
I'm very big about livingwithin our means right now and
it brings me joy to be like hell.
Yeah, i bought a used car and Ilove it.
I should use for my kids at theconsignment store and for myself
.
I shop at Goodwill for myclothes a lot, so I've got to
have the fashion and all thewaste.

(59:43):
I am so happy now that I wouldgo through breast cancer
treatment again before goingback to my life when I worked
for somebody else.
Wow, i've vocalized how much Ihate cancer, but I'm happier now
exponentially than I was backthen.

Melissa (01:00:01):
That sounds like what you're doing.
to simplify it, to like asentence, is you're living in
full alignment with your valuesAnd there's no price you can put
on that.
And when you spoke in anotherinterview about what's next
because you're going to sellAudit Minor and you're going to
be incredibly financiallyrewarded for that and the way in

(01:00:21):
which you spoke about it, i'dlove for you to just share how
you're considering that decision.
What are the considerationsaround when you sell, who you
sell it to?
what is that?

Kelly Mann (01:00:31):
Yeah, i would say that it's probably different for
me than a lot of otherentrepreneurs, but there is a
chance that I might not be herewhen I'm 65 to retire.
That's a possibility.
And I want to sell Audit Minorearlier and have that
life-changing amount of moneyand live my retirement now with
my family, when I can, and enjoythe money and the experiences

(01:00:53):
and the freedom that it's goingto provide, because I might not
be here when I'm 65 to enjoy it.
And so a lot of people are like, wow, your company is doing so
well, why do you want to sell itso early when you can make 100
million in 15 years versus maybejust 20 to 30 million today?
And it's like, well, what's 15million more in the grand scheme

(01:01:14):
of things, when you're alreadymaking 15 million?
Like, what additional benefitis that truly going to provide
you?
And so for me, it's selling itto experience the gifts that
financial freedom andindependence will give me with
my family.

Jessica (01:01:30):
I know that we are going to have a long juicy
episode here And I just wouldlove to let you know my
takeaways from this conversation, because I feel really, really
touched And there's so manypieces of your story that have
touched me.
I see really honoring yourtruth like living in your

(01:01:52):
authenticity, no matter wholikes it or doesn't like it.
Putting yourself in the spacesand the environments where you
meet your people and the peoplewho do see you and support you.
The courage to identify whatisn't serving you in your life
or where you feel drained or outof alignment, and having the

(01:02:15):
courage to take the risk to getyourself into a place of joy.
I see the deep resiliency tomeet what life is bringing you
and find the adventure in it,even when it is unbelievably
hard and impossible and feels socruel.

(01:02:40):
I see really learning how to bepresent and treasure the gift
that life is in the momentyou're in it, and not waiting
for some future time to live,understanding that life is here
and now That's kind of how wegot.
We just don't know And to stopliving in our stories about all

(01:03:03):
the worst case scenarios that weactually can't control, and
actually live in what we cancontrol, which is show up
presently with our loved ones.
Choose what you do with yourtime in a conscious, present way
.
Choose what actually mattersand be grateful for all of it.
I feel like there's so manythings I didn't say, but there's

(01:03:23):
so much I'm taking from this.

And you guys are all about authenticity And I will
say that the hardest part ofbeing authentic is when nobody
else is doing it the way thatyou want to do it, because it
can be lonely.
But even as a CEO, there arethings that I do for the company
and things that I share thatpeople are like you shouldn't do
that, you shouldn't, don't letyour employees know about that,
and I'm like what do I have to?

Jessica (01:03:45):
hide.
But isn't that the only way todo it?
Because if you're actuallyfollowing someone else's script,
you're not living authentically.
So to walk your own path is towalk alone through the unknown
and figure it out as we go.

And it's harder to just mute the other voices when
you do it.
That's the hardest part.

Melissa (01:04:06):
It's like everyone has their how you should do your
life, who you should be like,how you should be a leader, what
you should say, what youshouldn't say, what you should
wear, what you shouldn't wear,how many hours you should work,
who's supposed to take care ofyour kids blah, blah, blah.
Everyone has all these fuckingopinions.
We all have them, and I thinkit's the hardest, one of the
hardest things to show up anyway, even when you're met with a

(01:04:29):
lot of resistance.

It's like a lot of my life.
It's just summing up, it's justsoldierizing and jump.

Jessica (01:04:34):
And another big one for me was to trust your weird,
ridiculous ideas, which is soimportant.
It's so important to trustyourself that much, to trust
your weird ideas and find thepartnership and the support that
also believes in you.

It'll be really weird.
You'll cultivate it, it willbecome normalized.
You'll figure it out.

Melissa (01:04:53):
Kelly, I love you And that interview really rocked my
world.
And even if I didn't know you,I think I would still feel that
way, Like I just I really do.
I didn't know you and I feelthat way.
I just think that you are one ofthe greatest people to walk on
this earth.
Oh, my God, i'm a puddle, likeevery word out of your mouth was
so valuable.

(01:05:14):
Everything that you've stoodfor and the pain that you've
walked through and the risksthat you've taken and the way in
which you live your life It's amodel for how people want to
live.
It really is, and you had to gothrough some serious shit to be
able to live the way in whichyou live.
But you were also kind ofliving that way before.

(01:05:36):
It just amplified who youalready were.
Ask yourself to find the joy tobe present for the things that
matter.
I mean, just that was such abeautiful summary And I feel
like you really see her.
It's what everyone is craving.
It is like every woman thatcomes to me for coaching or in
my community or the people in mylife.
So much of what you said iswhat they're craving of, how

(01:05:56):
they want to show up in theirlife And I know you don't really
want to get breast cancer againto not be that person, but to
be that much of a stand for howyou're living your life now Like
that's a big stand, for I willnot abandon myself.
I will not abandon my values atall And this is actually what I
would even say that the cost isbecause it cups you your life

(01:06:17):
anyway.
Yeah, yeah.
It does Well.
I love you.
I'm so grateful you're here.

Jessica (01:06:22):
I'm so sorry for what you had to endure and what
you've had to live through.
I'm in awe of your courage.
I'm really grateful for thevulnerability in which you've
shared your story, and I thinkit's bullshit cancer is bullshit
and it's bullshit that ithappened to you.
But thank you for sharing thewisdom that you have, and I just

(01:06:46):
know for sure that so manypeople are going to be really
moved and changed by this, sothank you for being with us
today.
Hey there, rebels, if youenjoyed this podcast, we would

(01:07:06):
love your support in a few quickways.
You could like, follow orsubscribe on your preferred
platform to help others discoverus too.
You could also leave us areview.
We also have a Facebook group,and you can find us at
facebookcom Slash groups, slashinter rebel podcast, and you can
find us on Instagram at interrebel podcast.
Your support means everythingto us and we can't wait to

(01:07:27):
continue this journey together.

All Episodes

Kelly Mann: Turning Hardship into Adventure — Resilience, Self-Acceptance, and the Simplicity of Joy

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

The Breakfast Club

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Kelly Mann: Turning Hardship into Adventure — Resilience, Self-Acceptance, and the Simplicity of Joy