How do we recognize and disentangle our self-worth from the approval of others? Is being “nice” more harmful than we realize? Can we escape the relentless anxiety of trying to become who we think others want us to be?
In today's episode, we're privileged to sit down with Kevin Benevides, the force behind The Canvas Within. As a transformational men’s coach, Kevin openly shares his journey from being a self-confessed people pleaser and perpetual "nice guy" stricken with paralyzing anxiety, to becoming a leader of mindfulness and emotional authenticity for men. He confronts the prevailing misconception that "niceness" is always virtuous and exposes it as a potential mask for unresolved trauma, self-sacrifice, and a fear-driven desire for validation.
Kevin imparts his wisdom on codependency and people-pleasing tendencies, revealing how these coping mechanisms often lead to living for others, withholding honesty in relationships, and fostering resentment-filled giving. He breaks down the detrimental difference between authentic kindness and protective "niceness," and why so many of us default to "fix it" mode instead of holding space in our relationships. He delves into the need for us to be okay with others not being okay, and why we can't -- and shouldn't -- make our partners do the work of transformation.
Whether you are grappling with anxiety, wrestling with people-pleasing tendencies, or seeking to form more authentic connections in your relationships, this episode is a gift.
- Understanding co-dependency
- Challenging societal narratives around masculinity
- Overcoming people-pleasing tendencies
- Recovering from toxic niceness
- Mindfulness and emotional authenticity
- Cultivating conscious relationships
- Holding emotional space in relationships
- Why men try to "fix" it
- How to avoid the inauthentic "nice guy" in dating
CONNECT WITH KEVIN
- Check out Kevin: https://www.facebook.com/thecanvaswithin/
- Follow on IG: @thecanvaswithin/
If you loved today’s episode, please leave a review and share your favorite takeaways by screenshotting this episode and tagging us on Instagram! We also have a free monthly community call on the first Wednesday of every month, join here!
CONNECT WITH INNER REBEL
Follow Inner Rebel Podcast: @innerrebelpodcast
Follow Melissa: @melissa-bauknight
Follow Jessica: @bydesignwithjess
Visit the Inner Rebel website
Check out The Nova Community and become a member https://thenovaglobal.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melissa (00:02):
To even question what you've been told is true is
incredibly courageous.
It doesn't always feel likecourage.
What looks like courage toother people, for me it feels
like survival.
This is our personal medicine.
If I'm surrounded by thinkers,by lovers, by passion, by
integrity, then I really dothink that I know who I am.
There is a piece that isindescribable when you're being
(00:24):
who you are and you're livingyour purpose, i'm going to come
to the end of my life and belike I didn't live the life I
was meant to live.
Jessica (00:31):
Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and so
comfortable in that uncertaintythat every version of it is
going to be okay?
Melissa (00:39):
This is the Inner Rebel podcast.
Jessica (00:50):
I am actually feeling a little bit nervous today
because this is the first guest,who is a stranger, that I
stalked on Instagram andactually approached him to be on
our show.
Kevin Benavidez from the CanvasWithin.
He is a transformational coachwho helps men mindfully master
their mind and emotions, alignwith their purpose and step into
(01:12):
their full potential so thatthey can become better husbands
and fathers and leaders.
Why this feels reallysignificant to me?
obviously, I am not a man, butI want to thank you for what you
have done for me to help meunderstand and reframe
experiences that I've had withmen in my life.
(01:33):
I think a lot of what you shareis actually very universal, but
you are very specific in namingthings that I don't think a lot
of people are naming andcalling out a specific kind of
culture that I think harms bothmen and women.
I'm very excited to talk aboutyour work, the work that you do,
and also get to know you.
We usually start off with aquestion that you're allowed to
(01:57):
answer any way that you want.
Kevin (01:58):
For sure.
Jessica (01:59):
Who are you today, and how is that different from who
you thought you were supposed tobe?
Kevin (02:07):
Interesting.
I'm a human being that iscurrently playing the role of
husband, father,transformational coach, son,
brother, who is living life moreauthentically than ever before,
with potentially more to go inthe sense of more authenticity
to come through compared to whoI was in the past.
(02:29):
I was who the world told me tobe, who my family told me to be,
who I needed to be to survive.
None of that is necessarilygood or bad.
It is what it is.
I think that a lot of us, wejust fall suit with what we see.
Well, mom and dad, the family,tells us what the culture tells
us, what our friends tell us,and we just live that life, and
(02:51):
I think that's the life I wasliving, which is, again, not a
bad thing.
My wife came in.
That My first two kids came in,that I started cultivating a
life that was beautiful and, atthe same time, not really living
fully, because I was hidingbehind my people pleasing and
codependent ways.
Jessica (03:10):
What were the things you were told you should be, or
what did you believe you shouldbe?
Kevin (03:16):
Go to school, get an education, be nice, right, don't
piss people off, don't upsetpeople, don't say things you're
not supposed to say, stay inline.
I don't know if I was toldanything, it was more so what I
felt like I needed to do to helpme live.
We're unconscious of the thingthat we're unconscious of until
we do the work on ourselves.
(03:36):
Right At that time, i'm justdoing what I thought I needed
and wanted to do.
I just follow an easy path in away Go to school, get an
education, get that nine to fivejob, check all those boxes
right.
It's a normal, i think,societal thing that we have.
If I was freer to choose adifferent path, would I have
chosen a different path?
I think so.
(03:57):
I think I wouldn't even gone tocollege At the time.
I wanted to do carpentry.
And my mom's like nope, you gotto finish your education.
I'm like, okay, i go back and Ifinish my education, got my
degree in graphic design.
At the time There comes a pointin our life where, especially a
people pleaser, a codependentperson, you wake up to is this
(04:18):
the life that I want?
Am I doing what I want to doBecause I've been doing what
everybody else has wanted orwhat I felt like I needed to do
to keep everyone happy, right.
Jessica (04:26):
Tell us about 2013, because there was a moment in
2013 where something changed inyou.
Kevin (04:33):
Yeah, 2013,.
So 10 years now.
In the springtime, my dad gotreally sick.
I went into hospital.
We thought he was going to pass.
I thought he was going to pass.
I didn't think he was going tomake it through his health
condition when he was dealingwith.
So in that moment, a lot ofthings came up for me Anxiety,
which I was always living with.
I just didn't know what it was.
Anxiety skyrocketed to thepoint where I was having anxiety
(04:53):
attacks multiple times a week.
Depression came with that, anda bunch of things from my
childhood that I stuffed downand repressed I didn't purposely
want to stuff it down, but itwould just push down came to the
surface when I was like, oh,i'm going to lose my dad.
I started grieving his death,even though he didn't die and
he's still alive, he's stillaround, but all that.
(05:14):
I call it a mental andemotional shit storm that I was
in for like six months.
So all this stuff came to thesurface and it was like I have
to do something about this,because it was really tough.
That was what started thejourney for me.
So, six months of hell I wouldsay A few months in, i started
getting some support through amental health counselor, which
(05:35):
was good, and then one of thethings that I was like putting
on the band aid and a week laterthe band would fall off Almost
from the get go.
This guy was telling me I thinkyou should learn mindfulness.
I'm like, what the hell is that?
No, no, i'm good, thanks, ijust want to stick with you.
And almost every session hewould say, like I think you
should learn mindfulness.
And then finally, about sixmonths into this whole journey,
it was in September of 2013,.
(05:56):
I was at like my breaking point.
By that time I had a heartmonitor strapped on to me
because I was having heartpalpitations, because the
anxiety was so strong Iliterally thought I was going to
die.
I was at that point where, like, either death or something
drastically different has tohappen.
And so same thing went back tosee him and he's like you should
try mindfulness.
And I'm like you know what Ishould.
(06:20):
And that was the interestingpart.
I opened myself up to thatbecause I was at that breaking
point where something had tochange right.
So I reached out to this personwho I knew, knew mindfulness
and taught mindfulness and otherthings, and I started to meet
with him on a weekly, bi-weeklybasis.
He opened up my world tospirituality and just started
(06:40):
supporting me and understandingmy anxiety and understanding my
relationship to my dad, andthat's when everything started
to change.
Within a month, my anxiety wasway more manageable than it ever
was.
I started to become reallypassionate about growing, being
better, personal development,spirituality, all that stuff.
I just became passionate aboutit.
I wanted to learn about it.
(07:00):
I was always reading, i wasalways watching videos, i was
implementing what I was learningAnd so, by January 1st 2014, i
started the Canvas within.
I thought you know, i want toshare this with the world
Because right away, it was like,if I can go through this in one
month and be so much betterthan anybody can, i wanted to
share it with people.
Melissa (07:18):
We like to take terms that our guests use and make
sure that our listeners reallyunderstand.
I know mindfulness is kind of apersonal growth 101 term, but
I'd love for you to share Whatdoes that mean to you And what
were some of the things that youwere practicing that really
changed your life?
Cause I know I had decades ofanxiety, panic attacks.
I very much relate to yourstory And so I think anything
(07:42):
that we can give.
That gives people some relief.
Kevin (07:45):
I think mindfulness as a way of being able to bring my
awareness, my attention, to thepresent moment, and we can use
that doing different things,like I can look and say, oh, how
many colors are in this room orhow many things are blocked.
My mind is focused on what'spresent in front of me, not in
the future or in the past.
For me, it was mindfulness ofyour breath, which is the basic
(08:05):
thing Our ability to bring ourawareness, our attention, to one
single thing, but that singlething is in the present moment,
and so, instead of being in myhead, what's going on inside of
me?
That's something that Ideveloped afterwards The
mindfulness of my body, right,like being aware of what's going
on inside of me in the moment.
Yeah, that took years to learn.
(08:25):
That's really next level.
But then it's also during theday, checking in with yourself,
right?
I have an alarm on my phone.
Three times a day goes off.
When that alarm goes off, it'smy opportunity to pause, take a
couple of deep breaths and thenask myself what is going on?
What am I thinking, what am Ifeeling?
What do I need in this moment?
Because we're busy, we're doingthings and we're so stuck in
(08:48):
our head doing, doing, doing.
It's coming back to now, evenjust that, that moment of focus.
Jessica (08:54):
Well, i think another reason that we tend to move into
our heads is we disassociate.
We have trauma, we haveexperiences that we don't want
to feel or we aren't given asafe space to feel in the moment
that that incident or trauma orexperience occurs, right.
So we start to bury things, werepress things and we move up
into our minds and we move intothe past and the future, because
(09:17):
if we actually get present,that is where we actually have
to be with it.
So, actually getting still andbeing present and being in the
moment, i think maybe we shouldgently remind our listeners that
that is not an easy thing to do, because it is in the stillness
that we then have to look atourselves.
I agree totally agree.
(09:38):
And then you said, at least inwhat I've read about you, that
you then started to have allthese discoveries about why you
were the way that you were.
Can you share a couple of thediscoveries at that moment in
time that really helped triggerthis transformation, this new
journey?
you went on.
Kevin (09:55):
The first and foremost was in that September to
November period of 2013.
It was the realization of howmuch I lacked from my dad
growing up and how that impactedme, and then understanding what
he was going through, why hewas the way he was.
It really liberated me a lot tosee that it's not my fault,
(10:20):
it's not me What we do veryunconsciously, especially as
kids right, we're veryegocentric.
The world revolves around us,so when mom and dad are upset or
when they're not giving us,it's because there must be
something wrong with me.
It's my fault there.
This way, unconsciously, thatgets programmed into us.
That was running me for a verylong time, until when I was 31
years old, and it was like waita second, oh, i'm not the reason
(10:44):
why X, y and Z, x, y and Z washappening.
It's because he had his ownshit that he's never dealt with
And I have compassion for that.
Now It doesn't mean like it'sokay We're not saying it's okay
what they did, but it's justthat understanding to separate
yourself and be like oh, itotally get why you would do
this or not do this.
Melissa (11:04):
This, obviously, is something that men share having
some sort of father wounding AndI'm curious, what are men
dealing with collectively that?
you see, what are the commonthreads that they're running up
against as they're on their ownin our awakening and personal
growth journeys?
Kevin (11:19):
I think it's mother wound , father wound, but most of us
have both of them right.
A big thing that's plaguing menis living up to their version
of what they learn.
It means to be a man or movingaway from it, trying to be a
certain type of masculine man ortrying to not be like a certain
type of masculine man.
That messes up a lot of usbecause I think it's men.
(11:43):
Women doesn't matter gender, butespecially for men, we want to
be men, right, like we don'twant to be seen as less of a man
, and so we're trying to gothrough life and again check off
all these boxes your job, howmuch money you make, trying to
accomplish certain things, looka certain way, sleep with more
women.
I think at the core of it it'snot just masculinity, it's the
(12:03):
relationship with themselves,and that's what I really coach
and support men with is therelationship with themselves.
What I see is men who areinsecure, who don't feel worthy,
who have been hiding a lot ofemotions or not being able to be
with certain emotions.
The nice guy doesn't embody alot of his masculine traits,
(12:23):
which stems to how he was raisedand the men he was around
growing up.
Jessica (12:28):
I have a bit of a controversial opinion and I'm
open to debating this, but Ithink I've come to the
understanding that a lot of whatwe consider to be nice is
actually repression.
It actually isn't healthy andit doesn't mean that we should
be mean to each other.
We should be good to each otherbut, maybe we can define
(12:48):
niceness more clearly in thiscase and why it has so much
potential to be toxic if it'snot authentic.
Kevin (12:57):
Yeah, and when I use the term nice guy, which is a term
created by Dr Robert Glover, whowrote No More Mr Nice Guy, the
niceness that I'm talking aboutis not authentic.
It's fabricated, it's forced.
It doesn't come from the heart,it's done in a way to protect.
I want to be kind from my heart, because a lot of niceness is
(13:18):
I'm being nice, i'm being politeand I'm being agreeable so that
you approve of me, you validateme, you like me, you're giving
me something in return.
I'm not just doing this becausethat's what I actually truly
want from my heart.
I'm doing this because this isprotecting me, This is
supporting me, and at the sametime, you can be kind and speak
(13:40):
your truth and have somebodyupset at you, but that's coming
from my heart, not to hurt you,but this is my truth.
How you receive it, that's upto you.
But what happens is, if we saythis as a people pleaser, we
have the risk of that persongetting upset, and if that
person gets upset, we're nolonger safe.
Jessica (13:58):
This people pleasing the nice guy persona often comes
out of what you were speakingto before, about how we learn
very young and are conditionedaround our parents and in
society to learn what gives uslove and learn what makes us
feel safe and approved of.
I think we're all in the sameboat to a certain degree.
These are defense mechanismsand trauma, behaviors and
(14:21):
patterns we're acting outthroughout our lives that are
not intentional.
So when you become aware of it,what's the next step?
Someone listening going oh, Ido this and men and women both
do this.
What's the next step?
Kevin (14:35):
Yeah, i think it's a simple step of don't just look
at the one thing that you do.
Now you're aware, oh, i agree,when I'm actually disagreeing.
Go deeper, in the sense of whatother ways do I suppress myself
, betray myself in order to getlove, to be safe, to get that
approval, that validation?
what other ways that reallywill open your eyes?
(14:57):
We have to be aware, otherwisewe're going through life
unconsciously Oh, i know, i dothis one thing, but there's
nothing else over here.
But there's so much over here.
So it's like opening yourselfup to seeing, okay, this is what
I do.
And at the same time, when thathappens, you're going to feel
shitty, you're going to feelshame because you're like, oh my
gosh, i'm doing all this stuff.
That's horrible, natural tofeel, but you don't have to hold
on to that.
Just think about it.
(15:17):
That's just the way I wasprogrammed.
I didn't decide to be this wayAgain because people, pleasing
is a developmental trauma.
We didn't choose to be this way.
This is the result of how wewere raised and the way that we
kept ourselves safe and get ourlove and, like you were saying,
so, first and foremost, makesure that you see all the ways
in which you are abandoningyourself, betraying yourself,
suppressing yourself.
(15:38):
Then if I know that I don'tspeak my truth at work because I
don't want my coworkers or bossto get upset at me, then
intentionally go and speak yourtruth, even if it's
uncomfortable.
Jessica (15:49):
Can I ask you did you have access to what your truth
was at the time that you cameinto this self-discovery?
Did you know your truth and yourealized you had been
repressing it and abandoningyourself, Or was it actually a
journey of even discovering whatit is?
Kevin (16:07):
Yeah, it was a journey.
I didn't realize the peoplepleasing part, the codependency.
About four years into myjourney, see it to the point
where you're saying, oh, i seeit now.
Oh shit, what do I do?
right?
I didn't know people pleasingcodependency, nice guy, i didn't
have in terms.
I didn't understand any of that.
What I did know was I'm alwayslooking outside of myself for
(16:28):
love, for attention.
I'm always Hiding certainthings about me, like I feel
afraid to share certain thingsbecause I don't want people to
get upset, and I was tired of it.
And so, yes, it came with time.
Right, it wasn't just like Iworked through my anxiety, i
worked through my father woundand all of a sudden, i know this
authentic self.
It started opening up to whatwas more true for me, the way I
(16:49):
wanted to live, what I wanted todo with my life.
But I was still hiding myself.
Right, i wasn't showing upfully authentic.
I am still in that journey toshow up fully authentic.
Melissa (16:58):
But yeah, i wasn't there right away to answer your
question yeah, that's such alifelong journey to and To just
to feel safe, because there'sall the layers used to chip away
at like, oh, it's okay If I saythis, it's okay If I show this,
it's okay if I have this hardconversation, if my parents get
mad at me because I Speak upagainst something that I was
(17:19):
raised to believe and now Idon't believe in it, and it's
such an iterative process.
The thing that I Have beenfeeling into so much lately, and
why I said in the beginningthat I feel like this is a
really timely conversation, is IWas at a retreat recently.
It was a sacred business retreatand we talked a lot about our
partnerships and What I see is adisproportionate a massively
(17:43):
disproportionate amount of womenVersus men doing this inner
work, and a lot of times thewomen go first.
So, like 100% of the women thatI coach that have partners are
like cool, how do I get myhusband, how do I get my partner
to do this?
How do I find a man that isconscious and aware?
and I Have been working throughthis in my own marriage with my
(18:03):
own partner.
So how do we make it moreapproachable, or what do you
think is as a catalyst to getmen to want to do this work
because they'll feel more free.
Right, it's not just the womenbeing like you got to be a
different, better person.
It's like wanting it forthemselves so that they can show
up in the ways in which you'reexemplifying.
(18:23):
So what do we do about this?
How do we get men moreinterested in this work?
Kevin (18:28):
Yeah, first and foremost, do not force any man to do this
work.
And if you're a man listening tothis, don't do it because your
wife or your girlfriend said youneed to do this or Okay the
relationship and never work,because what I'll end up
happening is you're not fullycommitted to it.
I've seen it so much withclients.
I have to ask them if I knowthat their wife or girlfriend
(18:50):
sent them my way.
We have a serious conversationabout this, because what will
end up happening is you applyyourself because you're like I
have to do this to save myrelationship, but then it gets
hard and they weren't committedto the challenge of it and then
things start to fall apart andthen it's either blaming the
partner or even just blamingthemselves, bringing them more
(19:10):
into their shame and Thingsdon't change.
Or blaming the coach, orblaming whoever's helping them,
and nothing happens, because itgot too challenging for them And
they weren't really fullycommitted.
So only do the work because youwant to for yourself.
Yes, you can want to improveyour relationship, to be a
better father, all those things,but at first and foremost, it's
because you want to do itbecause usually the catalyst,
(19:31):
often times, is their partner.
Melissa (19:33):
I'm in agreement with you, is like their partners,
like you got to do some workright, but to go from the place
of yeah of somebody else wantingit for you To you wanting it
for you.
I know a lot of times there islike a big traumatic moment.
That happens the same with menand women, or life.
Something gets so bad you haveto hit.
But like, do we always have tohit rock bottom before we start
(19:55):
to give a shit about ourselvesAnd doing this work?
Kevin (19:58):
It's a good question.
I've asked that many times toeven myself.
It's a common question and,unfortunately, i think it is
almost rock bottom, but not rockbottom to the point where, like
, you're deeply depressed andyou can't get out of bed or
you've lost everything in yourlife, but there's a low that you
hit and then, because you're inthat low, then it's like okay,
i want to do this because Idon't want to feel this again.
(20:19):
I think it really is some sortof rock bottom that moves us
forward.
But, that being said, how canwe support more men?
is having this out there more?
the more Men are out theresupporting other men talking
about this, making it normal,then it's gonna be easier for us
to open up to this.
That's why I feel so passionateabout my work, even just putting
(20:39):
out the content that I do,because we have to normalize
this, not just want to work onourselves so we can make more
money.
Right, because a lot of guys dothat.
I want to build that businessand make more money, so I'm
gonna learn this trick and thattrick and this hack and that
habit and all that stuff, butthey're not really doing the
deeper work on themselves.
We've glorified the hustleculture.
What's more important is men'swork, your inner work on
(21:03):
yourself, and it's just puttingit out more and more.
I think that's gonna be reallysupportive and have events
programs Where it's safe for aguy to just dip his toe in.
They just want to check it out.
They don't want to fully commit.
And then I know a lot of menwho've done that.
They'll do it for a couplemonths, then they leave and then
a year later They're back inUntil again something really
(21:25):
smacks them across the head.
Oh, i want to do this.
Jessica (21:28):
I don't blame men personally.
I think there is a culturalissue going on, and I think part
of it is that our woundsactually get rewarded, a lot of
our trauma behaviors actuallyget rewarded by society, and so
there isn't that much incentivefor men to actually do this work
(21:48):
, and I think a lot of womenhave been conditioned to keep
the bar really low.
I think that we expect to carrya lot of the emotional weight
of a relationship.
When we see a man cry orcompliment his wife where
they're a good father, weglorify them.
So what I think should just bethe standard ends up being look
(22:10):
what he's doing, which is thebasics for a lot of the women
that I know are doing this work.
Kevin (22:15):
I definitely feel like way more women doing the deeper
work on themselves than men.
But, that being said, a lotmore men than ever before are
doing this work.
I know because there areendless amounts that reach out
to me that interact with mycontent.
I see other coaches, otherorganizations, tons of guys
right, but there is that culturethat we get rewarded for
(22:36):
behaving certain ways.
We just got to keep on movingforward And again making this
more normal and opening moremen's eyes.
That's why I love challengingcertain men who feel like
they're doing amazing in life,which maybe they are.
But I can sense it.
I can see it that they'rehurting.
I can see it that they're notshowing up in their best.
(22:57):
Their bar, like you said, isvery low And they're like, well,
if I just provide, if I justhustle, if I just make money, if
I just find that girl, then I'mfine And I'm doing great.
Look, i have all this, but yetyou can see they're in security.
You can see that they're nothealthy with their body.
So I love to challenge men toopen their self up to the next
(23:19):
level.
Jessica (23:20):
I'm curious what you think are the most pervasive or
damaging societal narratives orwounds that men are dealing with
and having to confront inthemselves that make it scary
for them to enter these spacesof healing.
Kevin (23:35):
I think it's wanting to live up to a certain definition
of what it means to be a man ormasculinity.
I think that really holds usback.
I was guest speaking in a men'sgroup that deals with addiction
the other day And this onegentleman said thank you for
sharing.
I appreciate what you weresaying.
I've been going through lifethinking that I'm supposed to be
stoic.
Guys think I'm supposed to showno emotions.
(23:58):
I'm good, i'm always good,there's nothing wrong with me.
But he's like wait, what aboutwhen I am hurting?
What about when I am challenged?
Now I can't speak because I'mnot supposed to speak up, that
I'm hurting, i'm strugglingbecause then I'm less of a man.
So if you're battling that, youknow what I mean.
You're in a tough spot.
Jessica (24:17):
Can you help us understand what that programming
is, what that narrative of whatit is to be man enough is?
Kevin (24:25):
Show no emotions.
Boys don't cry, right, thatsort of thing.
Suck it up.
You got to provide, provide,provide.
I think it really comes back toa suppression of what's
actually our humanity, ourhumanity.
Right, doesn't matter whatgender is being suppressed our
emotions, our feelings, ourtruth, it's being stuffed down.
That's not supportive.
(24:45):
And I think another piece is Ithink we've been so wounded,
like emotionally,psychologically, not by just men
, by men, by women, just by lifein general, and because we've
stuffed down our truth and ourpain, we have to find ways to
deal with that.
So if I'm feeling insecure, idon't feel enough.
(25:07):
Well, i'll feel enough.
If I sleep with more women,i'll feel enough.
If I climb the ladder in thecorporate world, i'll be enough
when I get that money atanyone's expense.
These are all like the thingsthat we see certain men do, and
women as well.
Melissa (25:23):
Yeah, it feels very similar.
I'm like we're all dealing withthe same shit.
It's just different levels ofit.
Yeah, yeah exactly.
Kevin (25:32):
But for the case of men, it's the fact that we don't want
to look at the reasons whywe're actually doing these
things that are not good for us,that are actually not
supporting us.
We don't want to look at thatstuff And, again, that's the
issue.
It all comes back to how we'rehurting inside and how we're
feeling about ourselves.
I think that's what it reallystems back to.
(25:52):
And, of course, we live in aculture where how can I say men
are bad, right, Like let's justput it out there for I don't
know how many years or maybedecades?
it's like women are rising,which is great, But we're also
trying to make men look likepieces of shits and they're no
good, Right, And they're thecause of all the issues.
And, yes, a lot of men causethe issues.
(26:12):
But if I'm perhaps a teenageror in my 20s, I'm getting all
these messages And it's likewhat the hell do I do?
Who do I be?
Because if I'm this way, thenall these women are not going to
like me.
Melissa (26:25):
I know you're like stuck If.
Kevin (26:27):
I'm.
if I'm not this way, then allthe men are not going to like me
, right, like, yeah, you're, butI think it's such an
interesting thing.
Melissa (26:32):
You spoke to it And I always have to catch myself too,
cause I talk a lot aboutfeminine energy.
And it's not the men, it's thistoxic masculinity, like the
definition of that which we allhave in us, and it's like where
that's pervasive, it tends to bethe places where we're out of
alignment, right Anytime youswing the pendulum too far in
one direction or the other, andso it is really like almost
(26:53):
taking away the gender of it andbeing like.
it's these expectations of theways of being that are the
problem not the person right.
It's the way in which we'reconditioned, And I love free.
We've talked a lot about whatthe issues are And I would like
to talk about what's possible,Cause I think that's the
exciting stuff.
(27:14):
You're a living example.
You're a husband, you're afather, you're a man.
You're doing this work with alot of men.
I would love for you to speakinto what has shifted in your
life.
How are your relationships somuch richer and what is possible
for men in general throughdoing what you're suggesting?
Who do they get to be and howdoes it get to feel in their
(27:34):
life?
Kevin (27:35):
So there's two main things.
I want to start with One.
I'm not perfect, I haven'tgotten everything right.
I make a lot of mistakes, Istill hurt people, But the
difference is that I'll own upto it right away and I'll try
and work on that thing that Imessed up.
I won't suppress it or push itaway or pretend it's not there,
But what's on the other side?
First thing that came to my mindwas more of a vision of
(27:56):
lightness, less burden, lessheaviness.
A lot of us men carry a lot ofemotional burden, even
psychological, right, That innercritic inside of us beating
ourselves up when we make amistake.
There's a heaviness inside of alot of us men that by doing
this work you start to let go of.
I use the analogy of like abackpack with bricks in it And
(28:18):
we have like this huge backpack,maybe almost like this big bag,
And we're trying to go throughlife with this bag and it's
heavy as hell.
And when we're doing this workyou tackle one thing, you tackle
one fear, you process a certainemotion.
The bricks are just starting tocome out and it's lighter and
lighter.
Life feels more aligned to me.
I'm more I don't know if theword is proud of.
(28:41):
But I'm grateful for the manthat I am for my kids, And when
I do see that I messed upsomething with my kids, I'm like
I'm sorry, I'm going to own upto that.
That was messed up, Like Ishouldn't have said that, I
shouldn't have screamed that way, And so I'm proud of the man
that I get to be for everyone inmy life.
On the other side of this isfreedom from your vices And we
(29:02):
all have our own vices thethings that we turn to because
we don't know how to deal withwhat's going on inside of us or
in our life right now.
Imagine a life where you don'teven have to think about the
drink or the drug or the sex orthe hustle, whatever the thing
is.
It doesn't have control overyou.
You have control over it.
Jessica (29:22):
I think what breaks my heart a little bit is that we
all want the same thing to feeldeep connection and love and a
sense of belonging and bevulnerable and have intimacy And
I really believe that it's justa lot of pain and societal
conditioning and trauma in theway that we aren't calling out
(29:45):
enough When we were speaking tothe frustration of women.
I think it's just that we wantto be met.
We just want to be metemotionally, And the very thing
that a lot of men have been toldis so unsafe to be is the very
thing that we want.
Kevin (29:59):
For sure.
They just don't know how to.
They don't feel safe and theydon't know how to.
You can't hold space for yourpartner and her emotions and
what she's going through.
If you've never held space foryours, if you've never been with
your emotion, that's right.
You're wanting that supportwith everything that's moving
through you, but this man cannotgive you that container to be
supported that way, because he'slike what do I do with this?
(30:20):
It's just too uncomfortable.
No, like you're good,everything's going to be fine,
and it's just dismissing.
What's your going through,right?
No, we're saying that because Idon't know how to deal with
this.
I don't want to deal with thisbecause if you're feeling a
certain way, you're dealing withsomething.
It's going to trigger somethinginside of me.
Jessica (30:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Is this why a lot of men gointo fix it?
or I need to solve your?
Kevin (30:41):
one Yeah, because I can't be with your emotional
discomfort because of myemotional discomfort And also I
want to fix it Again.
This is a common thing for niceguys, especially codependent
men, is I want to fix yourproblem because if you're
unhappy it's unsafe for me Andif you're unhappy then you're
not in the mood that I need youto be in.
Melissa (31:01):
Yeah.
Kevin (31:02):
So that I get what I need from you.
I need you to be happy so thatyou can compliment me, so you
can be sexually available, allthese things.
And so if you have a problem orif you're not happy, i got to
change this as soon as Ipossibly can, because my
resource, where I'm siphoning myself-worth and my safeness, is
cut off now because you're notdoing well.
(31:24):
It's a huge one.
I still have to check myselfright And what I say to my wife
now, like when she needs support, i'm there, obviously, but
certain things before, whereshe's complaining about
something, i'll listen to her,but before I was like do this,
do that?
like trying to help her solvethe problem.
All she wanted me to do wasjust listen to her.
And then sometimes certainthings happen and I'm like, yeah
(31:44):
, you're a big girl, you'll beable to figure out.
And she's like, thank you.
I'm like, okay, and I just walkaway.
Melissa (31:49):
Well, i love even the question and I have to do this
as a coach like, do you need meto listen or do you want me to
provide solutions?
right?
Like, how do you want me to befor you in this conversation?
Because I can sit and be withyou and listen and my husband is
good about this.
He'll be, like do you want meto try to solve this with you,
or do you need me to just hearyou?
(32:09):
and I'm like thank you forasking, because it's a big one,
right?
Just like how do you want me tobe with you when you're telling
me these things that are goingon in your life?
right, we can all learn fromthat.
Jessica (32:20):
A challenge that I am in the middle of the nice guy
and this syndrome of nicenessthat I think men and women both
experience and deal with.
Kevin (32:32):
Yeah, it's both yeah.
Jessica (32:34):
How do we discern the difference in someone else?
I think we all have been veryconditioned to believe that a
nice guy is what we're lookingfor, and I am unraveling that in
myself.
But you also want someone whois kind and is compassionate and
is showing up, and so how do wediscern?
(32:54):
How do we discern thedifference?
Kevin (32:57):
If you know the man like you, have history with him in a
sense friendship or a familymember, and you can see that
there are people pleaser, thenyou can question their saying
yes or whatever the thing is.
I do that sometimes with mykids, especially with my
daughter, and I hope she doesn'thear this, but I know she's a
(33:18):
people pleaser.
She's already starting todevelop that a little bit.
She wants to please like momand dad, right?
She wants to make sure that wedon't get upset at her.
So sometimes we'll be talkingabout certain things and she'll
give a certain answer and I'mlike no, i want your truth.
Please tell me what you actuallywant for yourself.
I'm not going to get upset.
Please tell me.
Don't just say what you want tosay to keep me happy, i don't
(33:40):
care.
I just need you to tell me thetruth And it doesn't have to be
confrontational.
It's just hey, i know that youhave a hard time sometimes with
this and then just saying Irather have your truth than you
just trying to keep me happy orwhatever the thing is.
Jessica (33:53):
And what if it's someone you don't know?
Like I'm going to start dating,you know.
Kevin (33:58):
Yes, when you don't know, it pops up and I haven't dated
and I date my wife, but I can'tsay how dating life is right now
.
But I'd say, if a man can callyou on something, Lovingly Yeah.
I was about to say respectfully,lovingly, then you know that
perhaps he's not that nice guy,he's not living with that sort
(34:20):
of syndrome, because if we are,there's no way we're going to,
we'll call you out.
But what's going to be veryrude, disrespectful, right, if
for a man to say you know, ireally didn't appreciate what
you did at that date or whatever, but it comes from again a
loving, respectful place,honesty, you know that he's done
(34:41):
some work, right.
Jessica (34:43):
I felt my heart like I feel so emotional and I think
you just clarified it so simplybecause I really have been
living with that question for awhile now Like, how do I trust
myself to know?
You know, I've had enough lifeexperiences that I really
(35:04):
believed I was with someone safeand then it didn't turn out to
be that way.
So my own ability to navigateand trust in my relationship to
men has been affected.
So I've been trying to figureout what that is and you just so
simply made it very clear forme and I really appreciate that.
Kevin (35:26):
And another quick thing.
Can I give you one more quickthing That just came into my
mind?
If he's always texting you andwanting to be with you right off
the bat, Warn it.
Jessica (35:36):
Oh, I already know that one.
Kevin (35:38):
I won and it's like whoa.
Jessica (35:40):
That one I got, i'm good.
Kevin (35:42):
Okay, all right, just wanted to put that in there.
Jessica (35:45):
Yeah, but seeing through the niceness or seeing
through, you know, because Ithink in some cases I really was
like, oh, i learned a lot fromthe niceness.
I think that I had previousexperiences where, because I
didn't experience generosity orI didn't experience someone kind
of going above and beyond, whenI did experience it I was like,
(36:05):
oh, isn't it so nice to be withsomeone who just doesn't make
these things a big deal andthey're so effortlessly generous
, and then not actually beingable to see that I was coming
from potentially an inauthenticplace or a need to please, or he
just wanting to fill a roleRight.
Yeah.
Kevin (36:21):
I hear you.
Jessica (36:23):
I think what I've learned is what I've been trying
to feel into, and I do thinkwhat you said about someone
being able to lovingly call outthe truth, i think is major.
It's really helpful, thank you.
Kevin (36:35):
You're welcome.
Melissa (36:36):
I feel like I need to give my husband some credit
after this interview because I'mlike a dominating person.
You know I've softened a lotover the years of really like
leaning and learning more aboutmy feminine side, but I'm a
strong woman and he does a greatjob of meeting that.
It would be like calls me outof my bullshit in a loving way,
you know.
But I need that.
(36:57):
I didn't want somebody that Icould walk all over and just
dominate Like.
I needed a match that could belike okay, like sure you're
strong and I got you And I cancall you out and like we'll be
okay.
I hadn't really thought aboutthat that much of just the
significance of that or justbeing able to, you know, even
like to say no or to not operateout of guilt.
(37:18):
I noticed one thing that hedoes very well and maybe
something to look for is likehis mom is like I just love her
dearly and she loves planningfamily events and things like
that, and like he literallywon't give a yes unless he
really means it, like he has noproblem with the no, like I
don't feel like doing that, idon't want it, you know, like so
, even sometimes when it comesto like moms, which is probably
(37:41):
a whole other window we couldopen here of like the mama's boy
, or like wanting to please yourmom and say yes, or do whatever
mom wants.
He's also has great boundariesaround.
That He shows up for a lot ofit.
But he's also like I don't needto constantly please, Like I'm
not worried about losing yourlove.
Yeah, Yeah, aces.
Kevin (37:59):
That's good, it's great Go.
Jessica (38:01):
John.
Melissa (38:01):
Yeah, we can be so hard on our partners, but it's good
to give them credit.
So I would love for you toshare what you have going on or
ways that somebody listeningthat's like, okay, maybe I want
to do this.
Like how do men dip their toesin?
How do we make this accessible?
Kevin (38:18):
First and foremost, whether it's with me or anyone
else follow accounts onInstagram and any social media,
right, It's not going to hurtyou by following an account and
then all of a sudden seeingcertain things pop up and just
start reading and learning toopen yourself up to it.
Open a men's group, right, orcheck out a men's event.
I have like two closed groupsand they only open at certain
(38:38):
points during the year And, yeah, one-on-one coaching obviously
is almost at any time, as longas I have space.
But I think for men just to diptheir toe in is just to open
themselves up, just check it out.
And if you connect with a friendor another man in your life
that you know from whateverspace that has gone through
(38:59):
certain things in their life,meet them up for coffee.
Ask them some questions, right.
Go beyond the sports andbusiness and politics and go
into, like how are you doing?
How did you work through thischallenge in your life?
I know you were divorced.
How was that?
What did you have to face Thosesort of things?
Start having more conversationsabout deeper things with men
(39:21):
that you feel like you can.
Melissa (39:22):
Yeah, it's perfect.
My husband is not.
He plays sports, but he's not asports guy And he's like it is
so hard to be a man when youdon't watch sports because that
is what everyone goes to astheir baseline conversation And
he's like I don't know what'sgoing on And he's had to really
work through, not pretending,but it's really hard because
that is a go-to.
Well, i think that was such abrilliant point.
Kevin (39:44):
Yeah.
Melissa (39:45):
Just ask some different kinds of questions.
Jessica (39:47):
Get out of business, politics and sports, i think
it's a whole other conversationto have about how men are
showing up for men and with eachother.
Oh, yeah, yeah, and what ishappening between men is a big
part of this, i think.
Kevin (40:00):
Yeah, i think so too, And you know, what I was about to
say was just reaching out toyour male friends and saying,
hey, how are you actually doing?
Because we don't do that enough, especially as men, we don't do
that.
How amazing would it be if youhad a friend that called you and
say, hey, how's life going on?
What are you dealing with?
Is there anything that I canyou want to, yeah, support with
or need to talk about, orwhatever?
(40:21):
the thing is right, you have tobe yourself open and willing to
hold that space for them.
So that's also a challenge.
But, yeah, we need to justcheck in because even if we
don't know, even if you don'tknow the answer, at least you
can guide them and say I hearyou, i'm sorry that you're
dealing with this.
Even just that acknowledgementwould help a lot of us men.
(40:43):
So you can be that leader.
Right, we want to be men, wewant to be leaders.
That's a way to lead.
A new way of leading ischecking in on your male friends
.
Jessica (40:52):
Well, thank God for rock bottoms Right.
Melissa (40:57):
I'm gone for rock bottoms.
Jessica (40:59):
Oh yeah, that's the title of the episode.
Now, hell yeah, what can be thehardest moment of our lives can
also be the catalyst.
Kevin (41:08):
It's the best thing that ever happened to me.
Jessica (41:10):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm so glad that you were willing to
come and share your wisdom withus.
Melissa (41:15):
Yes, thank you so much for being here.
I was really going to make adifference.
Kevin (41:19):
Thank you, appreciate both of you for inviting me on,
and I can keep on going.
I love talking about this.
Melissa (41:27):
That's a thing I feel like every conversation we have.
We're like we need like sixmore hours with you.
There's so much more to unpack.
We want to bring men on here,We want to bring conscious men
on here and we want to open upthe conversation.
It's not enough for us to justbe having it with women, Right?
Jessica (41:44):
We'll come on and do another round at some point And
we'll go to the next level.
I appreciate it so much.
Thank you, Kevin.
Kevin (41:50):
You're welcome.
Definitely We should Hey thereRebels.
Jessica (42:03):
If you enjoyed this podcast, we would love your
support in a few quick ways.
You could like, follow orsubscribe on your preferred
platform to help others discoverus too.
You could also leave us areview.
We also have a Facebook group,and you can find us at
facebookcom Slash groups slashinter Rebel podcast, and you can
find us on Instagram at interRebel podcast.
(42:23):
Your support means everythingto us and we can't wait to
continue this journey together.
To even question what you've been told is true is
incredibly courageous.
It doesn't always feel likecourage.
What looks like courage toother people, for me it feels
like survival.
This is our personal medicine.
If I'm surrounded by thinkers,by lovers, by passion, by
integrity, then I really dothink that I know who I am.
There is a piece that isindescribable when you're being
(00:24):
who you are and you're livingyour purpose, i'm going to come
to the end of my life and belike I didn't live the life I
was meant to live.
Jessica (00:31):
Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and so
comfortable in that uncertaintythat every version of it is
going to be okay?
Melissa (00:39):
This is the Inner Rebel podcast.
Jessica (00:50):
I am actually feeling a little bit nervous today
because this is the first guest,who is a stranger, that I
stalked on Instagram andactually approached him to be on
our show.
Kevin Benavidez from the CanvasWithin.
He is a transformational coachwho helps men mindfully master
their mind and emotions, alignwith their purpose and step into
(01:12):
their full potential so thatthey can become better husbands
and fathers and leaders.
Why this feels reallysignificant to me?
obviously, I am not a man, butI want to thank you for what you
have done for me to help meunderstand and reframe
experiences that I've had withmen in my life.
(01:33):
I think a lot of what you shareis actually very universal, but
you are very specific in namingthings that I don't think a lot
of people are naming andcalling out a specific kind of
culture that I think harms bothmen and women.
I'm very excited to talk aboutyour work, the work that you do,
and also get to know you.
We usually start off with aquestion that you're allowed to
(01:57):
answer any way that you want.
Kevin (01:58):
For sure.
Jessica (01:59):
Who are you today, and how is that different from who
you thought you were supposed tobe?
Kevin (02:07):
Interesting.
I'm a human being that iscurrently playing the role of
husband, father,transformational coach, son,
brother, who is living life moreauthentically than ever before,
with potentially more to go inthe sense of more authenticity
to come through compared to whoI was in the past.
(02:29):
I was who the world told me tobe, who my family told me to be,
who I needed to be to survive.
None of that is necessarilygood or bad.
It is what it is.
I think that a lot of us, wejust fall suit with what we see.
Well, mom and dad, the family,tells us what the culture tells
us, what our friends tell us,and we just live that life, and
(02:51):
I think that's the life I wasliving, which is, again, not a
bad thing.
My wife came in.
That My first two kids came in,that I started cultivating a
life that was beautiful and, atthe same time, not really living
fully, because I was hidingbehind my people pleasing and
codependent ways.
Jessica (03:10):
What were the things you were told you should be, or
what did you believe you shouldbe?
Kevin (03:16):
Go to school, get an education, be nice, right, don't
piss people off, don't upsetpeople, don't say things you're
not supposed to say, stay inline.
I don't know if I was toldanything, it was more so what I
felt like I needed to do to helpme live.
We're unconscious of the thingthat we're unconscious of until
we do the work on ourselves.
(03:36):
Right At that time, i'm justdoing what I thought I needed
and wanted to do.
I just follow an easy path in away Go to school, get an
education, get that nine to fivejob, check all those boxes
right.
It's a normal, i think,societal thing that we have.
If I was freer to choose adifferent path, would I have
chosen a different path?
I think so.
(03:57):
I think I wouldn't even gone tocollege At the time.
I wanted to do carpentry.
And my mom's like nope, you gotto finish your education.
I'm like, okay, i go back and Ifinish my education, got my
degree in graphic design.
At the time There comes a pointin our life where, especially a
people pleaser, a codependentperson, you wake up to is this
(04:18):
the life that I want?
Am I doing what I want to doBecause I've been doing what
everybody else has wanted orwhat I felt like I needed to do
to keep everyone happy, right.
Jessica (04:26):
Tell us about 2013, because there was a moment in
2013 where something changed inyou.
Kevin (04:33):
Yeah, 2013,.
So 10 years now.
In the springtime, my dad gotreally sick.
I went into hospital.
We thought he was going to pass.
I thought he was going to pass.
I didn't think he was going tomake it through his health
condition when he was dealingwith.
So in that moment, a lot ofthings came up for me Anxiety,
which I was always living with.
I just didn't know what it was.
Anxiety skyrocketed to thepoint where I was having anxiety
(04:53):
attacks multiple times a week.
Depression came with that, anda bunch of things from my
childhood that I stuffed downand repressed I didn't purposely
want to stuff it down, but itwould just push down came to the
surface when I was like, oh,i'm going to lose my dad.
I started grieving his death,even though he didn't die and
he's still alive, he's stillaround, but all that.
(05:14):
I call it a mental andemotional shit storm that I was
in for like six months.
So all this stuff came to thesurface and it was like I have
to do something about this,because it was really tough.
That was what started thejourney for me.
So, six months of hell I wouldsay A few months in, i started
getting some support through amental health counselor, which
(05:35):
was good, and then one of thethings that I was like putting
on the band aid and a week laterthe band would fall off Almost
from the get go.
This guy was telling me I thinkyou should learn mindfulness.
I'm like, what the hell is that?
No, no, i'm good, thanks, ijust want to stick with you.
And almost every session hewould say, like I think you
should learn mindfulness.
And then finally, about sixmonths into this whole journey,
it was in September of 2013,.
(05:56):
I was at like my breaking point.
By that time I had a heartmonitor strapped on to me
because I was having heartpalpitations, because the
anxiety was so strong Iliterally thought I was going to
die.
I was at that point where, like, either death or something
drastically different has tohappen.
And so same thing went back tosee him and he's like you should
try mindfulness.
And I'm like you know what Ishould.
(06:20):
And that was the interestingpart.
I opened myself up to thatbecause I was at that breaking
point where something had tochange right.
So I reached out to this personwho I knew, knew mindfulness
and taught mindfulness and otherthings, and I started to meet
with him on a weekly, bi-weeklybasis.
He opened up my world tospirituality and just started
(06:40):
supporting me and understandingmy anxiety and understanding my
relationship to my dad, andthat's when everything started
to change.
Within a month, my anxiety wasway more manageable than it ever
was.
I started to become reallypassionate about growing, being
better, personal development,spirituality, all that stuff.
I just became passionate aboutit.
I wanted to learn about it.
(07:00):
I was always reading, i wasalways watching videos, i was
implementing what I was learningAnd so, by January 1st 2014, i
started the Canvas within.
I thought you know, i want toshare this with the world
Because right away, it was like,if I can go through this in one
month and be so much betterthan anybody can, i wanted to
share it with people.
Melissa (07:18):
We like to take terms that our guests use and make
sure that our listeners reallyunderstand.
I know mindfulness is kind of apersonal growth 101 term, but
I'd love for you to share Whatdoes that mean to you And what
were some of the things that youwere practicing that really
changed your life?
Cause I know I had decades ofanxiety, panic attacks.
I very much relate to yourstory And so I think anything
(07:42):
that we can give.
That gives people some relief.
Kevin (07:45):
I think mindfulness as a way of being able to bring my
awareness, my attention, to thepresent moment, and we can use
that doing different things,like I can look and say, oh, how
many colors are in this room orhow many things are blocked.
My mind is focused on what'spresent in front of me, not in
the future or in the past.
For me, it was mindfulness ofyour breath, which is the basic
(08:05):
thing Our ability to bring ourawareness, our attention, to one
single thing, but that singlething is in the present moment,
and so, instead of being in myhead, what's going on inside of
me?
That's something that Ideveloped afterwards The
mindfulness of my body, right,like being aware of what's going
on inside of me in the moment.
Yeah, that took years to learn.
(08:25):
That's really next level.
But then it's also during theday, checking in with yourself,
right?
I have an alarm on my phone.
Three times a day goes off.
When that alarm goes off, it'smy opportunity to pause, take a
couple of deep breaths and thenask myself what is going on?
What am I thinking, what am Ifeeling?
What do I need in this moment?
Because we're busy, we're doingthings and we're so stuck in
(08:48):
our head doing, doing, doing.
It's coming back to now, evenjust that, that moment of focus.
Jessica (08:54):
Well, i think another reason that we tend to move into
our heads is we disassociate.
We have trauma, we haveexperiences that we don't want
to feel or we aren't given asafe space to feel in the moment
that that incident or trauma orexperience occurs, right.
So we start to bury things, werepress things and we move up
into our minds and we move intothe past and the future, because
(09:17):
if we actually get present,that is where we actually have
to be with it.
So, actually getting still andbeing present and being in the
moment, i think maybe we shouldgently remind our listeners that
that is not an easy thing to do, because it is in the stillness
that we then have to look atourselves.
I agree totally agree.
(09:38):
And then you said, at least inwhat I've read about you, that
you then started to have allthese discoveries about why you
were the way that you were.
Can you share a couple of thediscoveries at that moment in
time that really helped triggerthis transformation, this new
journey?
you went on.
Kevin (09:55):
The first and foremost was in that September to
November period of 2013.
It was the realization of howmuch I lacked from my dad
growing up and how that impactedme, and then understanding what
he was going through, why hewas the way he was.
It really liberated me a lot tosee that it's not my fault,
(10:20):
it's not me What we do veryunconsciously, especially as
kids right, we're veryegocentric.
The world revolves around us,so when mom and dad are upset or
when they're not giving us,it's because there must be
something wrong with me.
It's my fault there.
This way, unconsciously, thatgets programmed into us.
That was running me for a verylong time, until when I was 31
years old, and it was like waita second, oh, i'm not the reason
(10:44):
why X, y and Z, x, y and Z washappening.
It's because he had his ownshit that he's never dealt with
And I have compassion for that.
Now It doesn't mean like it'sokay We're not saying it's okay
what they did, but it's justthat understanding to separate
yourself and be like oh, itotally get why you would do
this or not do this.
Melissa (11:04):
This, obviously, is something that men share having
some sort of father wounding AndI'm curious, what are men
dealing with collectively that?
you see, what are the commonthreads that they're running up
against as they're on their ownin our awakening and personal
growth journeys?
Kevin (11:19):
I think it's mother wound , father wound, but most of us
have both of them right.
A big thing that's plaguing menis living up to their version
of what they learn.
It means to be a man or movingaway from it, trying to be a
certain type of masculine man ortrying to not be like a certain
type of masculine man.
That messes up a lot of usbecause I think it's men.
(11:43):
Women doesn't matter gender, butespecially for men, we want to
be men, right, like we don'twant to be seen as less of a man
, and so we're trying to gothrough life and again check off
all these boxes your job, howmuch money you make, trying to
accomplish certain things, looka certain way, sleep with more
women.
I think at the core of it it'snot just masculinity, it's the
(12:03):
relationship with themselves,and that's what I really coach
and support men with is therelationship with themselves.
What I see is men who areinsecure, who don't feel worthy,
who have been hiding a lot ofemotions or not being able to be
with certain emotions.
The nice guy doesn't embody alot of his masculine traits,
(12:23):
which stems to how he was raisedand the men he was around
growing up.
Jessica (12:28):
I have a bit of a controversial opinion and I'm
open to debating this, but Ithink I've come to the
understanding that a lot of whatwe consider to be nice is
actually repression.
It actually isn't healthy andit doesn't mean that we should
be mean to each other.
We should be good to each otherbut, maybe we can define
(12:48):
niceness more clearly in thiscase and why it has so much
potential to be toxic if it'snot authentic.
Kevin (12:57):
Yeah, and when I use the term nice guy, which is a term
created by Dr Robert Glover, whowrote No More Mr Nice Guy, the
niceness that I'm talking aboutis not authentic.
It's fabricated, it's forced.
It doesn't come from the heart,it's done in a way to protect.
I want to be kind from my heart, because a lot of niceness is
(13:18):
I'm being nice, i'm being politeand I'm being agreeable so that
you approve of me, you validateme, you like me, you're giving
me something in return.
I'm not just doing this becausethat's what I actually truly
want from my heart.
I'm doing this because this isprotecting me, This is
supporting me, and at the sametime, you can be kind and speak
(13:40):
your truth and have somebodyupset at you, but that's coming
from my heart, not to hurt you,but this is my truth.
How you receive it, that's upto you.
But what happens is, if we saythis as a people pleaser, we
have the risk of that persongetting upset, and if that
person gets upset, we're nolonger safe.
Jessica (13:58):
This people pleasing the nice guy persona often comes
out of what you were speakingto before, about how we learn
very young and are conditionedaround our parents and in
society to learn what gives uslove and learn what makes us
feel safe and approved of.
I think we're all in the sameboat to a certain degree.
These are defense mechanismsand trauma, behaviors and
(14:21):
patterns we're acting outthroughout our lives that are
not intentional.
So when you become aware of it,what's the next step?
Someone listening going oh, Ido this and men and women both
do this.
What's the next step?
Kevin (14:35):
Yeah, i think it's a simple step of don't just look
at the one thing that you do.
Now you're aware, oh, i agree,when I'm actually disagreeing.
Go deeper, in the sense of whatother ways do I suppress myself
, betray myself in order to getlove, to be safe, to get that
approval, that validation?
what other ways that reallywill open your eyes?
(14:57):
We have to be aware, otherwisewe're going through life
unconsciously Oh, i know, i dothis one thing, but there's
nothing else over here.
But there's so much over here.
So it's like opening yourselfup to seeing, okay, this is what
I do.
And at the same time, when thathappens, you're going to feel
shitty, you're going to feelshame because you're like, oh my
gosh, i'm doing all this stuff.
That's horrible, natural tofeel, but you don't have to hold
on to that.
Just think about it.
(15:17):
That's just the way I wasprogrammed.
I didn't decide to be this wayAgain because people, pleasing
is a developmental trauma.
We didn't choose to be this way.
This is the result of how wewere raised and the way that we
kept ourselves safe and get ourlove and, like you were saying,
so, first and foremost, makesure that you see all the ways
in which you are abandoningyourself, betraying yourself,
suppressing yourself.
(15:38):
Then if I know that I don'tspeak my truth at work because I
don't want my coworkers or bossto get upset at me, then
intentionally go and speak yourtruth, even if it's
uncomfortable.
Jessica (15:49):
Can I ask you did you have access to what your truth
was at the time that you cameinto this self-discovery?
Did you know your truth and yourealized you had been
repressing it and abandoningyourself, Or was it actually a
journey of even discovering whatit is?
Kevin (16:07):
Yeah, it was a journey.
I didn't realize the peoplepleasing part, the codependency.
About four years into myjourney, see it to the point
where you're saying, oh, i seeit now.
Oh shit, what do I do?
right?
I didn't know people pleasingcodependency, nice guy, i didn't
have in terms.
I didn't understand any of that.
What I did know was I'm alwayslooking outside of myself for
(16:28):
love, for attention.
I'm always Hiding certainthings about me, like I feel
afraid to share certain thingsbecause I don't want people to
get upset, and I was tired of it.
And so, yes, it came with time.
Right, it wasn't just like Iworked through my anxiety, i
worked through my father woundand all of a sudden, i know this
authentic self.
It started opening up to whatwas more true for me, the way I
(16:49):
wanted to live, what I wanted todo with my life.
But I was still hiding myself.
Right, i wasn't showing upfully authentic.
I am still in that journey toshow up fully authentic.
Melissa (16:58):
But yeah, i wasn't there right away to answer your
question yeah, that's such alifelong journey to and To just
to feel safe, because there'sall the layers used to chip away
at like, oh, it's okay If I saythis, it's okay If I show this,
it's okay if I have this hardconversation, if my parents get
mad at me because I Speak upagainst something that I was
(17:19):
raised to believe and now Idon't believe in it, and it's
such an iterative process.
The thing that I Have beenfeeling into so much lately, and
why I said in the beginningthat I feel like this is a
really timely conversation, is IWas at a retreat recently.
It was a sacred business retreatand we talked a lot about our
partnerships and What I see is adisproportionate a massively
(17:43):
disproportionate amount of womenVersus men doing this inner
work, and a lot of times thewomen go first.
So, like 100% of the women thatI coach that have partners are
like cool, how do I get myhusband, how do I get my partner
to do this?
How do I find a man that isconscious and aware?
and I Have been working throughthis in my own marriage with my
(18:03):
own partner.
So how do we make it moreapproachable, or what do you
think is as a catalyst to getmen to want to do this work
because they'll feel more free.
Right, it's not just the womenbeing like you got to be a
different, better person.
It's like wanting it forthemselves so that they can show
up in the ways in which you'reexemplifying.
(18:23):
So what do we do about this?
How do we get men moreinterested in this work?
Kevin (18:28):
Yeah, first and foremost, do not force any man to do this
work.
And if you're a man listening tothis, don't do it because your
wife or your girlfriend said youneed to do this or Okay the
relationship and never work,because what I'll end up
happening is you're not fullycommitted to it.
I've seen it so much withclients.
I have to ask them if I knowthat their wife or girlfriend
(18:50):
sent them my way.
We have a serious conversationabout this, because what will
end up happening is you applyyourself because you're like I
have to do this to save myrelationship, but then it gets
hard and they weren't committedto the challenge of it and then
things start to fall apart andthen it's either blaming the
partner or even just blamingthemselves, bringing them more
(19:10):
into their shame and Thingsdon't change.
Or blaming the coach, orblaming whoever's helping them,
and nothing happens, because itgot too challenging for them And
they weren't really fullycommitted.
So only do the work because youwant to for yourself.
Yes, you can want to improveyour relationship, to be a
better father, all those things,but at first and foremost, it's
because you want to do itbecause usually the catalyst,
(19:31):
often times, is their partner.
Melissa (19:33):
I'm in agreement with you, is like their partners,
like you got to do some workright, but to go from the place
of yeah of somebody else wantingit for you To you wanting it
for you.
I know a lot of times there islike a big traumatic moment.
That happens the same with menand women, or life.
Something gets so bad you haveto hit.
But like, do we always have tohit rock bottom before we start
(19:55):
to give a shit about ourselvesAnd doing this work?
Kevin (19:58):
It's a good question.
I've asked that many times toeven myself.
It's a common question and,unfortunately, i think it is
almost rock bottom, but not rockbottom to the point where, like
, you're deeply depressed andyou can't get out of bed or
you've lost everything in yourlife, but there's a low that you
hit and then, because you're inthat low, then it's like okay,
i want to do this because Idon't want to feel this again.
(20:19):
I think it really is some sortof rock bottom that moves us
forward.
But, that being said, how canwe support more men?
is having this out there more?
the more Men are out theresupporting other men talking
about this, making it normal,then it's gonna be easier for us
to open up to this.
That's why I feel so passionateabout my work, even just putting
(20:39):
out the content that I do,because we have to normalize
this, not just want to work onourselves so we can make more
money.
Right, because a lot of guys dothat.
I want to build that businessand make more money, so I'm
gonna learn this trick and thattrick and this hack and that
habit and all that stuff, butthey're not really doing the
deeper work on themselves.
We've glorified the hustleculture.
What's more important is men'swork, your inner work on
(21:03):
yourself, and it's just puttingit out more and more.
I think that's gonna be reallysupportive and have events
programs Where it's safe for aguy to just dip his toe in.
They just want to check it out.
They don't want to fully commit.
And then I know a lot of menwho've done that.
They'll do it for a couplemonths, then they leave and then
a year later They're back inUntil again something really
(21:25):
smacks them across the head.
Oh, i want to do this.
Jessica (21:28):
I don't blame men personally.
I think there is a culturalissue going on, and I think part
of it is that our woundsactually get rewarded, a lot of
our trauma behaviors actuallyget rewarded by society, and so
there isn't that much incentivefor men to actually do this work
(21:48):
, and I think a lot of womenhave been conditioned to keep
the bar really low.
I think that we expect to carrya lot of the emotional weight
of a relationship.
When we see a man cry orcompliment his wife where
they're a good father, weglorify them.
So what I think should just bethe standard ends up being look
(22:10):
what he's doing, which is thebasics for a lot of the women
that I know are doing this work.
Kevin (22:15):
I definitely feel like way more women doing the deeper
work on themselves than men.
But, that being said, a lotmore men than ever before are
doing this work.
I know because there areendless amounts that reach out
to me that interact with mycontent.
I see other coaches, otherorganizations, tons of guys
right, but there is that culturethat we get rewarded for
(22:36):
behaving certain ways.
We just got to keep on movingforward And again making this
more normal and opening moremen's eyes.
That's why I love challengingcertain men who feel like
they're doing amazing in life,which maybe they are.
But I can sense it.
I can see it that they'rehurting.
I can see it that they're notshowing up in their best.
(22:57):
Their bar, like you said, isvery low And they're like, well,
if I just provide, if I justhustle, if I just make money, if
I just find that girl, then I'mfine And I'm doing great.
Look, i have all this, but yetyou can see they're in security.
You can see that they're nothealthy with their body.
So I love to challenge men toopen their self up to the next
(23:19):
level.
Jessica (23:20):
I'm curious what you think are the most pervasive or
damaging societal narratives orwounds that men are dealing with
and having to confront inthemselves that make it scary
for them to enter these spacesof healing.
Kevin (23:35):
I think it's wanting to live up to a certain definition
of what it means to be a man ormasculinity.
I think that really holds usback.
I was guest speaking in a men'sgroup that deals with addiction
the other day And this onegentleman said thank you for
sharing.
I appreciate what you weresaying.
I've been going through lifethinking that I'm supposed to be
stoic.
Guys think I'm supposed to showno emotions.
(23:58):
I'm good, i'm always good,there's nothing wrong with me.
But he's like wait, what aboutwhen I am hurting?
What about when I am challenged?
Now I can't speak because I'mnot supposed to speak up, that
I'm hurting, i'm strugglingbecause then I'm less of a man.
So if you're battling that, youknow what I mean.
You're in a tough spot.
Jessica (24:17):
Can you help us understand what that programming
is, what that narrative of whatit is to be man enough is?
Kevin (24:25):
Show no emotions.
Boys don't cry, right, thatsort of thing.
Suck it up.
You got to provide, provide,provide.
I think it really comes back toa suppression of what's
actually our humanity, ourhumanity.
Right, doesn't matter whatgender is being suppressed our
emotions, our feelings, ourtruth, it's being stuffed down.
That's not supportive.
(24:45):
And I think another piece is Ithink we've been so wounded,
like emotionally,psychologically, not by just men
, by men, by women, just by lifein general, and because we've
stuffed down our truth and ourpain, we have to find ways to
deal with that.
So if I'm feeling insecure, idon't feel enough.
(25:07):
Well, i'll feel enough.
If I sleep with more women,i'll feel enough.
If I climb the ladder in thecorporate world, i'll be enough
when I get that money atanyone's expense.
These are all like the thingsthat we see certain men do, and
women as well.
Melissa (25:23):
Yeah, it feels very similar.
I'm like we're all dealing withthe same shit.
It's just different levels ofit.
Yeah, yeah exactly.
Kevin (25:32):
But for the case of men, it's the fact that we don't want
to look at the reasons whywe're actually doing these
things that are not good for us,that are actually not
supporting us.
We don't want to look at thatstuff And, again, that's the
issue.
It all comes back to how we'rehurting inside and how we're
feeling about ourselves.
I think that's what it reallystems back to.
(25:52):
And, of course, we live in aculture where how can I say men
are bad, right, Like let's justput it out there for I don't
know how many years or maybedecades?
it's like women are rising,which is great, But we're also
trying to make men look likepieces of shits and they're no
good, Right, And they're thecause of all the issues.
And, yes, a lot of men causethe issues.
(26:12):
But if I'm perhaps a teenageror in my 20s, I'm getting all
these messages And it's likewhat the hell do I do?
Who do I be?
Because if I'm this way, thenall these women are not going to
like me.
Melissa (26:25):
I know you're like stuck If.
Kevin (26:27):
I'm.
if I'm not this way, then allthe men are not going to like me
, right, like, yeah, you're, butI think it's such an
interesting thing.
Melissa (26:32):
You spoke to it And I always have to catch myself too,
cause I talk a lot aboutfeminine energy.
And it's not the men, it's thistoxic masculinity, like the
definition of that which we allhave in us, and it's like where
that's pervasive, it tends to bethe places where we're out of
alignment, right Anytime youswing the pendulum too far in
one direction or the other, andso it is really like almost
(26:53):
taking away the gender of it andbeing like.
it's these expectations of theways of being that are the
problem not the person right.
It's the way in which we'reconditioned, And I love free.
We've talked a lot about whatthe issues are And I would like
to talk about what's possible,Cause I think that's the
exciting stuff.
(27:14):
You're a living example.
You're a husband, you're afather, you're a man.
You're doing this work with alot of men.
I would love for you to speakinto what has shifted in your
life.
How are your relationships somuch richer and what is possible
for men in general throughdoing what you're suggesting?
Who do they get to be and howdoes it get to feel in their
(27:34):
life?
Kevin (27:35):
So there's two main things.
I want to start with One.
I'm not perfect, I haven'tgotten everything right.
I make a lot of mistakes, Istill hurt people, But the
difference is that I'll own upto it right away and I'll try
and work on that thing that Imessed up.
I won't suppress it or push itaway or pretend it's not there,
But what's on the other side?
First thing that came to my mindwas more of a vision of
(27:56):
lightness, less burden, lessheaviness.
A lot of us men carry a lot ofemotional burden, even
psychological, right, That innercritic inside of us beating
ourselves up when we make amistake.
There's a heaviness inside of alot of us men that by doing
this work you start to let go of.
I use the analogy of like abackpack with bricks in it And
(28:18):
we have like this huge backpack,maybe almost like this big bag,
And we're trying to go throughlife with this bag and it's
heavy as hell.
And when we're doing this workyou tackle one thing, you tackle
one fear, you process a certainemotion.
The bricks are just starting tocome out and it's lighter and
lighter.
Life feels more aligned to me.
I'm more I don't know if theword is proud of.
(28:41):
But I'm grateful for the manthat I am for my kids, And when
I do see that I messed upsomething with my kids, I'm like
I'm sorry, I'm going to own upto that.
That was messed up, Like Ishouldn't have said that, I
shouldn't have screamed that way, And so I'm proud of the man
that I get to be for everyone inmy life.
On the other side of this isfreedom from your vices And we
(29:02):
all have our own vices thethings that we turn to because
we don't know how to deal withwhat's going on inside of us or
in our life right now.
Imagine a life where you don'teven have to think about the
drink or the drug or the sex orthe hustle, whatever the thing
is.
It doesn't have control overyou.
You have control over it.
Jessica (29:22):
I think what breaks my heart a little bit is that we
all want the same thing to feeldeep connection and love and a
sense of belonging and bevulnerable and have intimacy And
I really believe that it's justa lot of pain and societal
conditioning and trauma in theway that we aren't calling out
(29:45):
enough When we were speaking tothe frustration of women.
I think it's just that we wantto be met.
We just want to be metemotionally, And the very thing
that a lot of men have been toldis so unsafe to be is the very
thing that we want.
Kevin (29:59):
For sure.
They just don't know how to.
They don't feel safe and theydon't know how to.
You can't hold space for yourpartner and her emotions and
what she's going through.
If you've never held space foryours, if you've never been with
your emotion, that's right.
You're wanting that supportwith everything that's moving
through you, but this man cannotgive you that container to be
supported that way, because he'slike what do I do with this?
(30:20):
It's just too uncomfortable.
No, like you're good,everything's going to be fine,
and it's just dismissing.
What's your going through,right?
No, we're saying that because Idon't know how to deal with
this.
I don't want to deal with thisbecause if you're feeling a
certain way, you're dealing withsomething.
It's going to trigger somethinginside of me.
Jessica (30:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Is this why a lot of men gointo fix it?
or I need to solve your?
Kevin (30:41):
one Yeah, because I can't be with your emotional
discomfort because of myemotional discomfort And also I
want to fix it Again.
This is a common thing for niceguys, especially codependent
men, is I want to fix yourproblem because if you're
unhappy it's unsafe for me Andif you're unhappy then you're
not in the mood that I need youto be in.
Melissa (31:01):
Yeah.
Kevin (31:02):
So that I get what I need from you.
I need you to be happy so thatyou can compliment me, so you
can be sexually available, allthese things.
And so if you have a problem orif you're not happy, i got to
change this as soon as Ipossibly can, because my
resource, where I'm siphoning myself-worth and my safeness, is
cut off now because you're notdoing well.
(31:24):
It's a huge one.
I still have to check myselfright And what I say to my wife
now, like when she needs support, i'm there, obviously, but
certain things before, whereshe's complaining about
something, i'll listen to her,but before I was like do this,
do that?
like trying to help her solvethe problem.
All she wanted me to do wasjust listen to her.
And then sometimes certainthings happen and I'm like, yeah
(31:44):
, you're a big girl, you'll beable to figure out.
And she's like, thank you.
I'm like, okay, and I just walkaway.
Melissa (31:49):
Well, i love even the question and I have to do this
as a coach like, do you need meto listen or do you want me to
provide solutions?
right?
Like, how do you want me to befor you in this conversation?
Because I can sit and be withyou and listen and my husband is
good about this.
He'll be, like do you want meto try to solve this with you,
or do you need me to just hearyou?
(32:09):
and I'm like thank you forasking, because it's a big one,
right?
Just like how do you want me tobe with you when you're telling
me these things that are goingon in your life?
right, we can all learn fromthat.
Jessica (32:20):
A challenge that I am in the middle of the nice guy
and this syndrome of nicenessthat I think men and women both
experience and deal with.
Kevin (32:32):
Yeah, it's both yeah.
Jessica (32:34):
How do we discern the difference in someone else?
I think we all have been veryconditioned to believe that a
nice guy is what we're lookingfor, and I am unraveling that in
myself.
But you also want someone whois kind and is compassionate and
is showing up, and so how do wediscern?
(32:54):
How do we discern thedifference?
Kevin (32:57):
If you know the man like you, have history with him in a
sense friendship or a familymember, and you can see that
there are people pleaser, thenyou can question their saying
yes or whatever the thing is.
I do that sometimes with mykids, especially with my
daughter, and I hope she doesn'thear this, but I know she's a
(33:18):
people pleaser.
She's already starting todevelop that a little bit.
She wants to please like momand dad, right?
She wants to make sure that wedon't get upset at her.
So sometimes we'll be talkingabout certain things and she'll
give a certain answer and I'mlike no, i want your truth.
Please tell me what you actuallywant for yourself.
I'm not going to get upset.
Please tell me.
Don't just say what you want tosay to keep me happy, i don't
(33:40):
care.
I just need you to tell me thetruth And it doesn't have to be
confrontational.
It's just hey, i know that youhave a hard time sometimes with
this and then just saying Irather have your truth than you
just trying to keep me happy orwhatever the thing is.
Jessica (33:53):
And what if it's someone you don't know?
Like I'm going to start dating,you know.
Kevin (33:58):
Yes, when you don't know, it pops up and I haven't dated
and I date my wife, but I can'tsay how dating life is right now
.
But I'd say, if a man can callyou on something, Lovingly Yeah.
I was about to say respectfully,lovingly, then you know that
perhaps he's not that nice guy,he's not living with that sort
(34:20):
of syndrome, because if we are,there's no way we're going to,
we'll call you out.
But what's going to be veryrude, disrespectful, right, if
for a man to say you know, ireally didn't appreciate what
you did at that date or whatever, but it comes from again a
loving, respectful place,honesty, you know that he's done
(34:41):
some work, right.
Jessica (34:43):
I felt my heart like I feel so emotional and I think
you just clarified it so simplybecause I really have been
living with that question for awhile now Like, how do I trust
myself to know?
You know, I've had enough lifeexperiences that I really
(35:04):
believed I was with someone safeand then it didn't turn out to
be that way.
So my own ability to navigateand trust in my relationship to
men has been affected.
So I've been trying to figureout what that is and you just so
simply made it very clear forme and I really appreciate that.
Kevin (35:26):
And another quick thing.
Can I give you one more quickthing That just came into my
mind?
If he's always texting you andwanting to be with you right off
the bat, Warn it.
Jessica (35:36):
Oh, I already know that one.
Kevin (35:38):
I won and it's like whoa.
Jessica (35:40):
That one I got, i'm good.
Kevin (35:42):
Okay, all right, just wanted to put that in there.
Jessica (35:45):
Yeah, but seeing through the niceness or seeing
through, you know, because Ithink in some cases I really was
like, oh, i learned a lot fromthe niceness.
I think that I had previousexperiences where, because I
didn't experience generosity orI didn't experience someone kind
of going above and beyond, whenI did experience it I was like,
(36:05):
oh, isn't it so nice to be withsomeone who just doesn't make
these things a big deal andthey're so effortlessly generous
, and then not actually beingable to see that I was coming
from potentially an inauthenticplace or a need to please, or he
just wanting to fill a roleRight.
Yeah.
Kevin (36:21):
I hear you.
Jessica (36:23):
I think what I've learned is what I've been trying
to feel into, and I do thinkwhat you said about someone
being able to lovingly call outthe truth, i think is major.
It's really helpful, thank you.
Kevin (36:35):
You're welcome.
Melissa (36:36):
I feel like I need to give my husband some credit
after this interview because I'mlike a dominating person.
You know I've softened a lotover the years of really like
leaning and learning more aboutmy feminine side, but I'm a
strong woman and he does a greatjob of meeting that.
It would be like calls me outof my bullshit in a loving way,
you know.
But I need that.
(36:57):
I didn't want somebody that Icould walk all over and just
dominate Like.
I needed a match that could belike okay, like sure you're
strong and I got you And I cancall you out and like we'll be
okay.
I hadn't really thought aboutthat that much of just the
significance of that or justbeing able to, you know, even
like to say no or to not operateout of guilt.
(37:18):
I noticed one thing that hedoes very well and maybe
something to look for is likehis mom is like I just love her
dearly and she loves planningfamily events and things like
that, and like he literallywon't give a yes unless he
really means it, like he has noproblem with the no, like I
don't feel like doing that, idon't want it, you know, like so
, even sometimes when it comesto like moms, which is probably
(37:41):
a whole other window we couldopen here of like the mama's boy
, or like wanting to please yourmom and say yes, or do whatever
mom wants.
He's also has great boundariesaround.
That He shows up for a lot ofit.
But he's also like I don't needto constantly please, Like I'm
not worried about losing yourlove.
Yeah, Yeah, aces.
Kevin (37:59):
That's good, it's great Go.
Jessica (38:01):
John.
Melissa (38:01):
Yeah, we can be so hard on our partners, but it's good
to give them credit.
So I would love for you toshare what you have going on or
ways that somebody listeningthat's like, okay, maybe I want
to do this.
Like how do men dip their toesin?
How do we make this accessible?
Kevin (38:18):
First and foremost, whether it's with me or anyone
else follow accounts onInstagram and any social media,
right, It's not going to hurtyou by following an account and
then all of a sudden seeingcertain things pop up and just
start reading and learning toopen yourself up to it.
Open a men's group, right, orcheck out a men's event.
I have like two closed groupsand they only open at certain
(38:38):
points during the year And, yeah, one-on-one coaching obviously
is almost at any time, as longas I have space.
But I think for men just to diptheir toe in is just to open
themselves up, just check it out.
And if you connect with a friendor another man in your life
that you know from whateverspace that has gone through
(38:59):
certain things in their life,meet them up for coffee.
Ask them some questions, right.
Go beyond the sports andbusiness and politics and go
into, like how are you doing?
How did you work through thischallenge in your life?
I know you were divorced.
How was that?
What did you have to face Thosesort of things?
Start having more conversationsabout deeper things with men
(39:21):
that you feel like you can.
Melissa (39:22):
Yeah, it's perfect.
My husband is not.
He plays sports, but he's not asports guy And he's like it is
so hard to be a man when youdon't watch sports because that
is what everyone goes to astheir baseline conversation And
he's like I don't know what'sgoing on And he's had to really
work through, not pretending,but it's really hard because
that is a go-to.
Well, i think that was such abrilliant point.
Kevin (39:44):
Yeah.
Melissa (39:45):
Just ask some different kinds of questions.
Jessica (39:47):
Get out of business, politics and sports, i think
it's a whole other conversationto have about how men are
showing up for men and with eachother.
Oh, yeah, yeah, and what ishappening between men is a big
part of this, i think.
Kevin (40:00):
Yeah, i think so too, And you know, what I was about to
say was just reaching out toyour male friends and saying,
hey, how are you actually doing?
Because we don't do that enough, especially as men, we don't do
that.
How amazing would it be if youhad a friend that called you and
say, hey, how's life going on?
What are you dealing with?
Is there anything that I canyou want to, yeah, support with
or need to talk about, orwhatever?
(40:21):
the thing is right, you have tobe yourself open and willing to
hold that space for them.
So that's also a challenge.
But, yeah, we need to justcheck in because even if we
don't know, even if you don'tknow the answer, at least you
can guide them and say I hearyou, i'm sorry that you're
dealing with this.
Even just that acknowledgementwould help a lot of us men.
(40:43):
So you can be that leader.
Right, we want to be men, wewant to be leaders.
That's a way to lead.
A new way of leading ischecking in on your male friends
.
Jessica (40:52):
Well, thank God for rock bottoms Right.
Melissa (40:57):
I'm gone for rock bottoms.
Jessica (40:59):
Oh yeah, that's the title of the episode.
Now, hell yeah, what can be thehardest moment of our lives can
also be the catalyst.
Kevin (41:08):
It's the best thing that ever happened to me.
Jessica (41:10):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm so glad that you were willing to
come and share your wisdom withus.
Melissa (41:15):
Yes, thank you so much for being here.
I was really going to make adifference.
Kevin (41:19):
Thank you, appreciate both of you for inviting me on,
and I can keep on going.
I love talking about this.
Melissa (41:27):
That's a thing I feel like every conversation we have.
We're like we need like sixmore hours with you.
There's so much more to unpack.
We want to bring men on here,We want to bring conscious men
on here and we want to open upthe conversation.
It's not enough for us to justbe having it with women, Right?
Jessica (41:44):
We'll come on and do another round at some point And
we'll go to the next level.
I appreciate it so much.
Thank you, Kevin.
Kevin (41:50):
You're welcome.
Definitely We should Hey thereRebels.
Jessica (42:03):
If you enjoyed this podcast, we would love your
support in a few quick ways.
You could like, follow orsubscribe on your preferred
platform to help others discoverus too.
You could also leave us areview.
We also have a Facebook group,and you can find us at
facebookcom Slash groups slashinter Rebel podcast, and you can
find us on Instagram at interRebel podcast.
(42:23):
Your support means everythingto us and we can't wait to
continue this journey together.
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