Laura Warrell: A 25-Year “Overnight” Success: The Power of Not Giving Up

Episode Transcript
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Melissa (00:02):
To even question what you've been told is true is
incredibly courageous.
It doesn't always feel likecourage.
What looks?

Laura Warrell (00:10):
like courage to other people.
For me, it feels like survival.
This is our personal medicine.

Melissa (00:15):
If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion,
by integrity, then I really dothink that I know who I am.
There is a piece that isindescribable when you're being
who you are and you're livingyour purpose, I'm going to come
to the end of my life and belike I didn't live the life I
was meant to live.

Jessica (00:31):
Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and so
comfortable in that uncertaintythat every version of it is
going to be okay?

Melissa (00:39):
This is the Inner Rebel podcast.
How are you doing?
I am so good.
I'm happy to be here and happyto get to meet you, Laura.
Yeah, great to meet you too,Laura.

Jessica (00:56):
as I was doing my research on you, I feel like
there's so many parallelsbetween our lives that I found
really interesting.
I have a lot of personalquestions to ask you.

That's fun Cool.
I like the personal question.

Jessica (01:11):
We have a really special guest, laura Warrell.
She is the author of the novelSweet Soft Plenty Rhythm and has
been a finalist for the PennFalkner Award for Fiction and
the Barnes Noble Discover Prizeand longlisted for the Andrew
Carnegie Medal for Excellence inFiction.
The book was named a Best orMust Read book by Vanity Fair

(01:34):
People, los Angeles Times,washington Post, boston Globe,
apple Books, the Millions, theRoot, hollywood Reporter Bustle.
it keeps going on and on and on.
Sweet Soft Plenty Rhythm wasalso chosen as a Good Morning
America Buzz Pick, a BarnesNoble Discover pick and an Indie
Next List pick.
Wow, you have had quite theyear.

It has been a fun year, i will admit it.

Jessica (01:59):
Yes, it's been great We have a lot to talk about,
because you just had a majorsuccess and this is your first
book that you've published.
Yes, it's not the first bookyou've written, but the first
book that you've published.

Exactly.

Jessica (02:14):
And I know it's been a long journey to get here.
It has, yes, so I want to digdeep into that journey.
But the first question we liketo ask our guests before we get
into everything else is we liketo hear how you experience being
yourself.
So we ask who are you and howis that different from who you

(02:36):
thought you were supposed to be?

So I love this question and it's very hard to
answer.
It could go in a lot ofdifferent directions.
We could get deep and a littletinge of darkness, or be totally
sunny, but it's beenchallenging to not necessarily
find myself or figure out who Iam.
I feel like I've always beenclear to myself about who I am.

(03:01):
I'm a creative person.
I have a worldview that'spretty expansive, very
progressive.
I'm a very curious person, andso I like to engage with other
people's art and other people'sideas.
I'm curious about human beings,and it's really important to me
to create a world for myselfthat, by extension, hopefully

(03:25):
expands other people's worlds.
I think one of the key words forme throughout my life has been
freedom, and what I mean by thatis the freedom to
self-actualize, the freedom tolive an authentic life and to do
what I can to acknowledge otherpeople's humanity.

(03:45):
So in my own little way I meanthis sounds a lot more
intentional and dramatic than Iactually mean, but I try to be a
kind person and generous in theways that I can help other
people live authentically, andpart of the challenge has been
that that's not an easy way tolive.

(04:06):
It's a hard thing to do if youdon't come into the world with a
trust fund right And you've gotto work your butt off and
you've got to deal with thingsthat aren't as easy.
It took me about 25 years tofinally get a book in the world,
and that journey was really,really hard, and especially near
the end when I thought itwasn't going to come together,

(04:28):
it got very, very scary.
And what was challenging aboutit wasn't that, oh, i want to be
on magazine covers and I wanteverybody to know me.
It was that I know who I am andwhat I'm meant to do in the
world, and success means to mebeing able to do it, and so not
having a book in the world meantI have to keep doing things

(04:51):
that didn't feel true to who Iam and I didn't really feel free
.
But with the book in the world,now that's starting to happen
and the gratitude I feel is sodeep.

Jessica (05:04):
It sounds to me, because we often ask that
question and people reflect onwho they thought they were
supposed to be, and where theyare is very different from that.
But it actually sounds like youknew very clearly when you were
younger what you wanted, andthen it was this long, long,
long journey to actualizing that, absolutely Yeah.

When I was a little girl, i wrote books and I
played school.
I pretended I was a teacher Andthat's what I do.
It's grown up And there's aBeastie Boys lyrics I'm going to
age myself that whenever Iwould hear it, one of them says
to tell the truth, i'm exactlywhat I want to be, and it would

(05:47):
always excite me when I wasyounger and it would always fill
me with this sort of sense oflonging and sadness when I was
older and things weren't comingtogether.
Because that's what I want.
I want to be exactly who I am.
I want everybody to be able todo that, and so, for sure, i

(06:08):
knew from an early age I wantedto be an actor.
But I think that was like adecision that was about, yeah,
being in the world and havingattention and being a kid and
not having enough attention.
And no offense to actors, notthat, that's what it's all about
for them, i understand.
But yeah, to me it's not somuch about fame and fortune.

(06:29):
For sure, as writers That neverhappens.
It's just like I get to wake up, i get to do things that mean
something to me, i get to readother people's books, i get to
support other people's books.
So, yeah, i'm exactly who Iwanted to be, who I was meant to
be, and I'm doing everything Ican to show up for it.

Melissa (06:48):
I'm really interested in how you held on to hope and
faith.
It sounds like you probably hadlots of times where you were
questioning that, because Isupport people for my living
that have big dreams like thatand help them, bring them to
life, and I find that I'mimpatient.
Jess had to work with me a loton patience And I find this for

(07:10):
a lot of people, and even thoseof us who are willing to put in
the work, who are showing upconsistently, have really
dedicated, which is a smallpercentage of people in itself.
And then to have about 25 yearsthat you went through, where
you still held on really tightlyto this dream before it became
a reality.
So what did you do to keep thespark alive over all those years

(07:32):
?

The primary answer, i think, is that I don't
want to say that I'm stubborn.
I think I just really lovedoing this work.
I follow a lot of writers insocial media who always talk
about enjoying having writtenand how hard it is to write.
And for sure it's a really hardthing to do and it can be
really frustrating, but I loveto just sit in front of a

(07:54):
computer and try to create aworld and work with the
character.
So I love doing it.
So in some ways I couldn't stopmyself.
There was a point when I waslooking for an agent.
It took me two years to find anagent.
I queried 50 agents.
There was a period where Ithought I don't think this is
going to happen And I don't knowwhat to do.
It was dark.

(08:15):
I started seeing a therapistand doing other things to take
care of myself.
But at the same time that I wasthinking I'm not doing this
again, i'm not spending yearswriting another book It was my
fifth And going througheverything that I'm doing to
network and build a careerthat's not coming together.
Even in the midst of all that,another book was writing itself

(08:37):
in my mind.
I couldn't stop it And that waspart of it.
But the other piece is.
I recognized where my blindspots were With the fourth book.
This was a book where I decided, okay, i'm just going to write
something that's very commercialso that I can get published and
then hopefully move the careerinto the direction writing the
kinds of books that I want towrite.

(08:58):
And that book didn't selleither.
I did have an agent briefly forthat.
She wasn't able to sell thebook And I realized, rather than
sort of letting it weigh on me,i realized clearly there's
something I'm not getting aboutwriting.
I love doing it and I think I'mgood.
I know I have talent, but I'mnot selling any books.

(09:19):
Part of that's got to be aboutme, something about my skills.
And so I went back to schoolAnd once I did that, i got my
MFA.
There were a lot of people whowere there for different reasons
and I kept telling all of mymentors I want to get better at
this, tell me what I'm notseeing.
And it helped.
And so part of it was reallybeing honest with myself that

(09:41):
this isn't just a dream and it'ssad and unfair that it's not
coming true.
It was that I have to work.
It's work.
I have to get better.
I have to listen to those who Itrust and those who I trust to
have information and knowledgeto tell me where I'm not seeing

(10:01):
my own weaknesses as a writer.
And then, once I got throughthat program and started writing
Sweets Off Plenty Rhythm, irealized I love this book.
I believe in the book.
It's like a love affair.
I feel like as artists we'reallowed to use that kind of
language, but I'm in love withthis book and I wasn't going to

(10:22):
give up on it.
Like a relationship, like, okay, this isn't the easiest
relationship I've had, but Iwant it, i love it, i believe in
it.
I think that's part of it.
I'm not going to lie.
I think I'm not going to beable to use this book.
It wasn't published.
I don't necessarily know if Iwould really keep going, but
fortunately it was.

Melissa (10:40):
Fortunately, you don't have to know that.
Yes, thank you, thank you,Thank you.
You're saying so many thingsabout the process of stepping
into your true, authentic voice.
Some of the things that I heardare you tried to write
something that fit the mold ofother people's expectations.
It didn't work, and then theone that you ended up having

(11:02):
your big breakthrough around wasa story that you loved and
believed in, and it wassomething very true for you.
I love that you talked to notbeing a victim around it
although I'm sure it's probablyimpossible to never have slipped
into victim mindset about itbut to really take
responsibility for your role init.
And what are my gaps?
How do I get better at this?

(11:23):
What can't I see?
Who do I trust to be able toadvise me on this And taking
really intentional action stepsto be able to identify the gaps
and what you couldn't see foryourself?
And I think those are reallyvaluable practical steps that
people can take when they'rebeating their head against a
wall.
The definition of insanity isdoing the same thing over and
over again, expecting adifferent result, and so I love

(11:45):
that you very intentionallychosen new path to get the
results that you desired.
So I just wanted to reflectthat back, because I think
there's just so much brilliancein that.
I'm interested in like arethere tangible things that you
can identify, that you learnedthrough school that helped you
shift your writing so that youdid get to have this moment?

Thank you, and thank you for reflecting that
back.
You've articulated it perfectlyAnd to me that's kind of the
magic formula When we think ofdreams and goals.
Sometimes we maybe feel wedeserve them or we just want to
help them and we aredisappointed when it doesn't
come together.
But it's work, especially in acreative field.

(12:30):
It's work and it's a craft AndI knew that going into the MFA
program and working with mymentors.
I really needed to dig into thecraft And so there were very
tangible things And this isreally embarrassing.
But I just did a lecture at aschool in Portland and I did a
lecture about plot and I confessthat I was diagnosed as having

(12:52):
a problem with plot.
I mean, can you imagine as awriter, like your problem is
plot?
I mean like, oh no, that's abig one.
Yeah, that's pretty mucheverything right.
I think that's my problem too.
Plot's hard.
That's the thing.
Plot's hard.
People don't realize,especially sort of newer writers
.
I teach a lot of people who'vegone another direction in their
careers and then decide I wantto write that book that I had an

(13:14):
idea for 20 years ago, and theydon't realize how difficult
plot is And I would almost argueit's the most difficult thing
to come up with, to structureand to maintain, and so that's
what I learned.
I learned it my last semester,which was a total bummer because
, like, could somebody have toldme this in the beginning so I

(13:35):
could have spent more timeworking on it, but I was open to
it And I think again thatthat's the key.
My mentor, or told me, was veryrigid about what he thought plot
was, and so I just said, allright, i'm going to turn this
over to you, tell me what a plotis, and in the end,
reconfigured a little bit formyself what I was told.

(13:58):
So some of it was just on acraft level.
I also have an issue withabstraction.
I really like language, i likepoetry and beautifully written
sentences, and sometimes I wassacrificing plot and clarity for
abstraction and beauty.
So that was something to learn,and so I'm really an advocate
for learning and continuing tolearn, and that part of our

(14:20):
dreams and goals, no matter whatthey are, is learning how to do
the work that is going to makethat dream come alive.
Also, being open to other people, being kind.
I'm really an advocate forbeing kind, especially in
creative fields.
There's so much competition,there's so much anxiety.

(14:40):
There are a lot of people whobehave in very cutthroat ways,
but coming back to yourself andkindness, and not in a cheesy,
goofy way, but just being adecent person and open to other
people.
Being in a program where therewas a little bit of that dynamic
of who's the coolest kid in theroom and which table's the cool
table to be having lunch was anice reminder of you don't have

(15:03):
to engage with that.
You can still achieve whatyou're trying to achieve and be
kind to other people.
So I think it was that I wentback to school and I devoted
myself to overcoming whateverthose issues were.

Jessica (15:16):
There's another aspect of this that I'd like to ask you
about, because part of what Irelate to in your journey is I
also knew very, very young whatI wanted to do And for me it was
acting.
And then it also has been along, slow, arduous, drawn out
journey to actualization.

(15:36):
And I was talking with a mentorlast week who presented it to
me in a way that I had neverquite thought of before And I'm
posing it to you because I'mjust curious how you might
respond to this where she saidthat the journey from impossible
to actualized and embodied inyour dream can be really long.

(15:57):
If you came from impossibleRight And my parents were very
supportive I got a lot ofopportunities when I was young,
but there was no example, therewas no one else around me that
showed me that it was possible.
There was no one like meshowing me that it was possible.
And, like you said, if youdon't come into money or you

(16:18):
don't come into certaincircumstances where I didn't
have actor parents.
They made a lot of money andwhatever it is that makes it
seem really accessible.

Right.

Jessica (16:28):
So what was that for you emotionally?
Do you think, in the same way,that you had lessons around your
craft?
do you think that there werepersonal lessons that you were
growing into in the times thatit seemed like nothing was
happening for you?

I also love this question and I totally, totally
relate to that sentiment.
In fact, i remember my bestfriend he's also an actor.
I was in a period of like whatam I doing?
When is this going to happen?
Why am I continuing?
And he said well, of courseit's going to be harder for
people like us.
We're just regular people fromregular families, right, and we

(17:06):
have supportive families.
The same I mean my mother,until the end, was behind me and
supportive.
Every member of my family was,for the most part.
I kind of joke that I was cursedwith a loving family because
that's all they could give me.
They're like, yeah, good luckwith that.
We don't know how you do it,but we're behind you 100%.

(17:29):
In fact, i did a book tour.
My uncle lives in Dallas and Iwent through Austin and he drove
up or down or wherever Dallasis in relation to Austin, to
support me.
He surprised me And he boughtone of my books and he signed it
and said you know, i'm notgoing to read it.
I don't read.
That's my family.
I love them and they are soloving, but they knew nothing.

(17:51):
They don't know how to write abook.
They don't know how you get abook published, they don't know
anybody who does.
And so for sure, when you comefrom that kind of background,
not only is there no path, it'sjust this giant overgrown field
that you have no idea where toenter or how to get across and
you have zero tools and no help.
And I think it's something thatpeople don't necessarily

(18:14):
realize because we see,especially in writing, at least
you see the stories of theperson who went to the right
school and met the right agentat the right time.
And what others may not know isthat, like you were saying,
their parents are in publishingor their parents are in those
artsy communities and sort ofclicks, and not to take away any

(18:36):
sense of ability and skill andtalents and even drive.
But it's easier when you knowwhat you're doing.
It's easier to get somewherewhen you know the directions and
you have a map.
And I didn't realize that in thebeginning and I'd be curious of
how it was for you.
I thought, oh, i wrote a bookand I looked for some people to

(18:58):
send it to and I sent it and Ithought, okay, well, i'll just
wait here and then my book willbe published.
And it took 25 years not onlyto write the right book but to
figure this out I really was onmy own for a very, very long
time before I started realizingI've got to start figuring out
the machinery.

(19:19):
And I imagine it's true withacting that some of it is kind
of random, some of it's unfair.
It's not always a meritocracy.
Your hard work is not alwaysrewarded and other people are
sitting at the soda fountain notthe soda fountain I'm using,
that old fashioned and they getdiscovered and you're like but
I've been auditioning for 30years.

Melissa (19:39):
They're listening to Beastie Boys at the soda
fountain, exactly.

Exactly The same song.
I love that song So emotionally.
I mean it's hard and I'm notgoing to lie.
I think it's true for so manyof us who have goals, no matter
what they are, and are workingso hard and trying so hard and
feeling like you're doingeverything that you're learning
you should be doing, andwatching other people just skate

(20:05):
right past you because theycame into the world in a way
that you didn't, and it's hardnot to feel envy, it's hard not
to feel resentment even.
But I kind of have always feltlike we're all on separate paths
and, yeah, it would have beennice if my parents were Tony
Morrison.

(20:25):
Anyway, i'm not going to dreamthat I love my mother.
Tony Morrison is going to be acool mother too.
You know it'd be nice if I wasborn into a situation where I
said, hey, i'm a writer, andthey said, great, here's this
editor and here's this school,and here's this recommendation
for you to get into that school,and here's this party where
you're going to meet all theright people.
But it didn't happen that way.

(20:45):
But I also am feeling a senseof joy and contentment that I am
not always seeing in people whoalso have debuts.
There's a lot more of anxietyand why didn't I get this?
And I'm just here going.
I can't believe I got this.

(21:06):
This is really nice.
There's a lot of gratitude whenyou know what it means.
Yeah, so there's a lot ofgratitude.

Jessica (21:12):
Yes, yeah, i'm curious about the self-belief piece.
Does that grow the more thatyou gain experience and
confidence as a writer, or doyou think there's another aspect
to it that has nothing to dowith the writing at all that you
needed to develop in terms offeeling like this is really
possible for me.

I think that the longer I'm alive, the more I
realize how lucky those of uswho love our families are, And
that sounds kind of trite, butyou know, my mother and
eventually my stepfather, mygrandparents, my uncles, and
later I had siblings my motherremarried have believed in me

(21:52):
from the beginning Again, thisis aging me.
My mother said, oh, she writes,and bought me a typewriter.
I always had something to writeon.
And so when things startedgetting hard, I was confused
Cause I was like, wait a minute,I'm supposed to be able to do
anything.
So I had the love right, And itwas the love that made me feel
that way.
I didn't have any of theopportunities or background or

(22:14):
necessarily the privileges, butI had the love, and the love
made me feel like I havesomething to offer the world and
it's a matter of time and placebefore the world receives it,
And I thank my family for thaton a regular basis.
But I also think I was an onlychild and I've always been a
little different for a varietyof reasons.

(22:36):
When I was a girl it was alittle bit more challenging, but
as I got older I got morecomfortable with the fact that
I'm different Part of theself-belief I think came with
really appreciating the waysthat I'm different.
I feel like for whatever reason, because of the way that I was
raised or because of theexperiences I had I was a black

(22:59):
girl in a predominantly whiteenvironment growing up and so
that would automatically put meinto this sort of isolated place
of being different that I gotcomfortable with it And I
appreciated who I was And Irealized these things that I
like, whether it was books ormusic or whatever else.
I really like them And the factthat nobody else does or that

(23:21):
they aren't that popular I'mokay with because I really like
them.
I liked my own company andbecause I liked the books that I
read and I could listen to themusic and dance by myself, And
so I became my own friend andthat sounds really corny.
I'm not trying to say that I'mthe most interesting, exciting
person in the world, but I likemyself.
I think that's part of what haskept me going is enjoying my

(23:44):
own company.
I like reading my own work.
Sometimes I like to just sitaround and think, And so I guess
that's part of it.
I believe in myself in that way.

Melissa (23:53):
I love that.
I wanna kind of circle back toa couple of things that you said
about being a regular personfrom a regular family and not
having a roadmap, and that's abig part of why we wanted to do
Inner Rebel was because wewanted to tell people's stories,
because when you say, even toJessica's question, i didn't
have somebody like me showing mewhat was possible.
That's why we're here And Ithink most people relate more to

(24:17):
I'm a regular person, maybe notfrom a regular family, but
maybe in a irregular family,depending on their viewpoint.
But that's most of us.
When you come to this life withan extraordinary soul calling
there's not a map for it,there's just not, because no one
is gonna bring that book tolife in the way in which you

(24:38):
were supposed to bring that bookto life so that you could be
the vision holder for somebodyelse and say, hey, i didn't have
this, this and this, but I hadlove and these are really key
elements And here's what Ilearned so I can help you maybe
do it a little bit moreefficiently or with less
struggle than I had.
And I think it's really normalto be like how do I do this

(24:58):
crazy dream that was placed inmy heart that I can't not do
because I'm being pulled towardsit so strongly.
I think it's something that somany of us struggle with, and I
do wanna say that even havinglove and belief is a leg up,
because so many people, evenpeople we brought on here, their
families, didn't get them.
Even if they can't show you howto be able to say I don't know

(25:21):
how to do this with you, but Ilove you and I believe that you
can do anything you set yourmind to is really critical, and
I think that we have to findthose people, whether it comes
from family or it comes fromfound family, that finding those
people that can see that lightin you to help you be able to
see it along the path You knowyou're absolutely right.

It is a privilege in some ways, emotionally at
least to have a loving family.
That's one of the reasons thatI bring it up.
a lot is that I know a lot ofpeople who don't, and it's not
even about their dreams.
There's a lot of drama rightThat they're dealing with
because they didn't have afamily that was loving.
And so I absolutely agree withyou I feel very lucky, even
though I kind of joke about it,i feel very lucky.

(26:03):
I tell them all the time howgrateful I am to them for their
support.

Melissa (26:07):
I actually really appreciate that you said it
feels embarrassing to admit thatI had to learn about plot as a
writer, and I think that thoseare the important things to say
out loud, because how many otherwriters are out there are like,
oh my God, if it's the hardestpart to get, then probably most
people are not getting it And tobe able to admit the things.
I think it's a really importantthing as leaders to be able to

(26:29):
say this is something that Ireally thought that I should
know, that I thought I wasgetting but I don't know it.
So I just wanted to honor thatin you too, because I'm sure a
lot of people that are listeningare like, hmm, maybe that's
something that I'm missing too.

Well, i brought it up because I was teaching a
class and there were about eightpeople in the class and we were
talking about plot, and theseare all aspiring writers and
some of them have been publishedor they've been in other
programs.
And one woman said you know,i'm just gonna say it, i don't
understand plot, i don't get it.
And one of the other women said, yeah, me too.

(27:02):
And they all sort of raisedtheir hands And so then I
decided, okay, i'm gonna createthis lecture around plot.
But I think that in general, inour culture, i think we talk a
lot about our emotional andpsychological lives right, we
are being more forthcoming abouttrauma, we're being more
forthcoming about our emotionalstruggles, and I'm really glad
about that But I don't thinkwe're as forthcoming about the

(27:26):
practical struggles of buildinga life, particularly a life
that's creative or one that isled by a dream or a goal, that's
outside of tradition or atleast convention in your own
family and background.
We don't talk about failure, wedon't talk about the struggle,

(27:47):
we don't talk about whatever itis that we recognize might be an
issue in our achieving ourgoals.
Like, wow, i don't get plot, oras a writer, i'm really shy and
I don't like to engage withother people, how can I still
build a career?
I think a lot of writers aren'tforthcoming about their journey

(28:08):
to publication.
So we do hear about the writerwho sent a letter to five agents
and then is winning awards, orthe actor who came to LA and
within six months was on the toprated TV show, and not enough
about the person who was herefor 30 years and suddenly became

(28:29):
Viola Davis, right.
And so I wish that we told thosestories more, because not only
would those people who gave upand maybe would have succeeded
if they hadn't, or the peoplewho aren't giving up but are
struggling, would realize that'sthe norm.
The norm, at least in writing,is that you're gonna send your
book to 50 agents, you're gonnago to audition after audition as

(28:54):
an actor and not get a part.
That's the norm.
And so if we shared thosestories, i think not only would
people stick with their dreamslonger, but it would just be a
nicer life.
Not that we all wanna be sadand crying into our tea or our
wine glasses, but the idea beingthat I'm just gonna be honest.

(29:14):
This is a pretty hard thing todo, and having other people
support that and be honest aboutthe challenges in their lives.
We could all just support eachother.

Jessica (29:23):
I think there's some wisdom and understanding that
things take their own time.
Sometimes it just goes reallyslowly.
And I think we're fed a lot ofstories that if there isn't this
sort of instant gratification,if it isn't coming right away,
that there's something wrong orthere's something wrong with you
or it's not gonna happen.
And that comes from otherpeople too, Like they look at

(29:44):
you and they're like well, it'sbeen a decade, When are you
gonna try something else?
So it takes a lot of innerconviction to stay on a path
when it doesn't seem likeanything is happening to trust
that a lot is happening underthe surface.
Our timeline isn't necessarilythe universe's timeline.

People have asked me about this journey to
publication because it was longand hard.
People keep asking you didn'tgive up?
How come you didn't give up?
The advice that I often givewriters who are struggling is
don't give up.
But I always qualify that bysaying everybody tells you don't
give up, but that doesn't meanthat you just sit there not

(30:28):
giving up right To me.
Keep doing the work, keeptaking classes, keep talking to
other people who do what you do,keep supporting other people
who do what you do, because Ithink part of that dream coming
true isn't just the timing, it'sthe work that you've put in to

(30:51):
meet it.
What do you do?

Melissa (30:52):
Melissa, can I ask?
I am a business alignment coachand a community creator And I
had a traditional career,corporate career and I left that
and building my huge souldreams right now, and so I think
, even though you're speaking towriting, this is something that
speaks to anybody that's on aless conventional path, those of

(31:13):
us that are insane enough towant to be entrepreneurs or to
build our own business.
You know, these are all lessonsthat apply to all of us, so I
think it's incredibly relevant.

Yeah, and I guess that's my point, is that, to me
, what I think is morefrustrating is when you want the
dream and you're just sort offeeling the lack of it, versus
putting stuff into the lack,which is work And not in a way,
you know, I don't mean toil, imean working on your craft.

(31:43):
I was just flying and there wasa woman next to me who was
reading a book and taking a lotof notes and I could tell that
she wants to be a life coachbased on what she was saying,
what she was reading.
Then she was talking to herboyfriend and she was doing so
much work in that flight.
She had cards, she had notes,she was reading, she was
highlighting, and to me I waslike she's going to succeed.

(32:04):
And to me that's the difference, right, between having the
dream and hoping it comes to youversus having the dream hoping
it comes to you and doing thework.
She's gonna be a good lifecoach because of the work she's
doing And so eventually, whenthose opportunities come, she's
gonna be prepared right, she'sgonna meet them.

(32:26):
There's a quote related to thatthat is totally escaping my
mind, right, that opportunityand luck are some kind of
meeting between them.
But that's what I mean iscontinuing to work on it.

Jessica (32:38):
Preparation meets opportunity.
There it is, thank you, thankyou.
But there's also an aspect ofyour journey because you were so
persistent And I think you saidthat you reached out to 50
agents before you found one Alot of people would interpret
even one no to mean I'm notsupposed to do this or as a
failing.
I had some really great adviceyears ago where someone said

(33:00):
you're interpreting the nose tomean it's the end of the road.
Like, this isn't for you.
But, what if it's just a pivot?
Or what if it's just this isn'tthe right fit, or not right now
, Or it's moving you in thedirection to where you will find
success.
So not seeing it as somethingso final.
I'm curious when you're gettingrejection after rejection maybe
you didn't see it as rejection,I'm not sure But when you're

(33:22):
getting all these nos, how didyou anchor in your conviction
and your resiliency in order tokeep going?

I think there are two things that would be
relevant to anyone who'slistening, And the first is
really believing in the work,believing in your skills,
believing in your product,believing in your service and
knowing, without selfaggrandizing, people need this,
People will like this.

(33:52):
That's what kept me going withevery rejection, really
believing in the work And I keepusing the word craft but
continuing to craft it.
Whenever I was gettingrejections I cried and I was sad
and I called my support network.
But I also looked at thefeedback and thought is there
anything I can take from this tomake that book better?

(34:12):
And that was what ultimatelygot me to the first drafts of
the book that I sent out when Iwas first looking for an agent,
versus the final draft that's onthe shelf.
It really evolved because Ididn't just sort of sit with the
dream and the goal and thefrustration of not having it.
I tried to make the work betterAnd so I think that's a huge

(34:35):
piece.

Jessica (34:36):
What I'm seeing is it's like a conversation that you're
having, because it's one thingto just go oh, it must mean my
work sucks and I'm not supposedto do this, and another to be
like, okay, i'm getting thisfeedback Doesn't mean that it's
over, it doesn't mean my workisn't good, but what is it about
the feedback that isconstructive, yes, and how do I
actually apply that And thentake the next step?

See, you guys are great.
You're like editors.
This is why writers need somepeople to say this is what
you're actually saying.
Right, This is a semi-curious,coherent way.
I do this really well, but Ineed to edit.

Melissa (35:10):
You're very coherent, thank you.
I'd like to just kind ofreiterate themes, because there
are themes that come up.
We listen for the themes, right.
But I actually am curiousbecause my background is sales.
I have I don't know, i'm 40, so18, 19 years of sales
experience, and you were doingsales.
I don't think everyone needs acareer in sales, but I think
people need to understand whatsales actually is, because if

(35:31):
you have a dream and you'repitching yourself over and over
again and you believe inyourself and you're trying to
say, hey, i have this idea,you're trying to enroll other
people into getting on boardwith your idea and that is sales
And the amount of knows thatyou get.
I wish that I could count howmany knows I've gotten in my
life.
I'm certain it's like a sixfigure number of knows that I've

(35:53):
gotten in my life in pursuit ofwhatever I'm up to, whether it
was selling a product, whetherit was trying to enroll my child
to do something I wanted him todo, or my husband, or inviting
people into a businessopportunity, or whatever it is.
You get so many knows.
It is inevitable, and I findthat I've done a lot of business
coaching.
I've also been in a directsales company for eight years,

(36:15):
which is a lot of knows.
You can't just quit because itdidn't work one time, one way,
or five times one way.
To make no mean somethingdifferent is incredibly
important.
And to keep coming back anddoing what you did which is
refine And maybe, one know,doesn't have anything to do with
you because of the lens inwhich that person sees the whole

(36:38):
world or how busy they are,what they had on their plate
Cause it doesn't necessarilymean I suck, i'm never gonna be
good at this thing, but I loveyour story of refinement, of
persistence, of devotion andcommitment to keep coming back,
and that is something that youhave to have in order to quote
unquote, make it in a regularworld.

I'm glad you said that, because I think it's true
of absolutely everything.
We constantly are beingrejected, we're constantly
hearing no And sort of using theanalogy of sales And I have not
done sales so I could not beusing the.

Melissa (37:15):
You have.
you just did it for 25 years,That's true.

And I guess that's a really good way to put
it right Is that you've got yourpitch and then you've got the
product or the service.
So when you keep getting knows,rather than going, well, i'm
just gonna go out there and tryagain, like, okay, do I need to
change my pitch?
Do I?
can I change the product, ornot change, but alter it?
How can I modify it so I canstart getting a yes?

(37:40):
I also compare it to dating ina way.
Right, you need to find one.
Right, you need to find oneperson who loves what you do,
and then everything opens up.
Right.
And it's just as hard sometimesto find that one person who's
gonna give you your first roleor give you a show at their
gallery or a book deal.

(38:00):
And that's what happened to me.
It took me 25 years, five books, 50 query letters, et cetera.
But once I got that agent, i'vejust kind of been able to sit
back and let well, i'm nottotally letting things happen,
but now I'm here and now I canbuild a career, and so it's just

(38:20):
a matter of telling yourselfthere are all kinds of reasons
why people are saying no.
Sometimes it's because they'rehaving a bad day and you just
got them at the wrong moment.
It hurts, it's painful to hear ano, but it definitely doesn't
mean, especially as a creativeperson.
There's your craft and your artand what it gives you and the

(38:42):
joy of doing it, and thenthere's a market.
There's a difference betweenyour writing and your skill and
your craft and the business thatyou're trying to access And you
have to somehow shield yourselfagainst the inevitable
discomfort of the marketplaceand the rejection of the
marketplace that everybodysuffers.

(39:03):
Our richest people in the worldright now can list all of the
rejection and the failures thatgot them to the Forbes whatever
500 list.
It's just a part of life And Ithink a lot of times the
difference between people whoachieve their goals and those
that don't is that they gave upor they didn't keep working at

(39:27):
it.
Keep getting better.

Jessica (39:29):
You kind of just brought it up but I knew you
were like, yes, we get to talkabout this.
Ooh, this is gonna be juice.
I wanna talk about dating.
So another thing that you and Ihave in common is that both of
us went through a divorce andthen it was like bear in land.
I think there's parallels inthings just taking their sweet
time, and that has also beentrue for me in my love life And

(39:53):
I also read your article thatyou wrote I gave up on love and
it was the best decision I evermade.
I am a little bit intrigued.
We're talking a lot about notgiving up, why it actually felt
like the right decision to giveup on love.

That's interesting.
So I would say this The firstpiece is that I have no control
over meeting somebody.
Yeah, i could use apps andstuff, but there's nothing that
I can do or change about who Iam to make myself more
attractive to a partner.
This is it right.

(40:30):
I do think that I had a kind ofrevelation, and it might sound
The language that I'm going touse is probably not the best
language to use, but hopefullyit will get me there.
I realized it's reallyunpleasant for me to be on apps.
I don't like it for a lot ofreasons and as a black woman,

(40:53):
unfortunately, i'm like theleast desirable.
Every year they're like hey, wejust wanted to remind everybody
that the people who get theleast amount of likes on apps
are black women and Asian men.
They constantly Yeah, so it'sparticularly hard Wow, yeah, to
do that type of thing.

(41:14):
So it wasn't just like datingis a pain in the butt.
It's like if I go on here, thechances are really slim.
So what I kind of realized isthis is very unpleasant.
It's making me feel bad aboutmyself, it's taking time away
from all the other things I likeabout living and there's

(41:34):
nothing that I can do to justmake a man materialize.
I'm going to live my life.
I'm going to go, do all thethings that I love doing, and
for sure I'm going to noticethat there are attractive men
around and hope that they cometalk to me, and if they do,
let's see where that leads.
But I'm not going to doanything about it anymore
because there's nothing I reallycan do versus with writing.

(41:58):
I can do stuff, i can writesomething new, i can improve
something that I've alreadyworked on, so that was part of
it, and that's what I mean withcontrol.
Not that I only want to engagewith things that I have control
over, but literally I don't haveany control over this.
I'm going to stay as alive andpresent in my own life as I
always have, and in fact, i'meven more present because I'm

(42:21):
not sitting there going.
When is somebody going to talkto me?
Who's that?
Should I go to this thing so Ican meet a boy?
I'm just going to live and behappy.
That's one piece, and the otherpiece is I'm older now,
obviously.
When I wrote that piece forHuffington Post, i think that
was like 2018.
There was about a year where Ireally wasn't paying attention

(42:42):
and I felt okay about beingsingle And then I sunk again and
felt kind of lousy about it.
But then, with the book out,things have changed And for sure
I would still like to meetsomeone.
For sure I still imagine a lifewith someone else and hope,
especially living in LA in anapartment If I could just meet

(43:03):
somebody and I could maybe havea house or at least a
two-bedroom conno anyway.
So I still think about it, forsure.
But I'm also so centered in myown life and the joy of my own
life that that doesn't hurt asmuch that I don't have a partner

(43:24):
.
Or I'll put it this way Theonly reason I want a partner is
for the joys of having a partnerintimacy, love, companionship.
There's no hole, any kind ofhole, has been filled with
myself and my work and now theworld has received it And that

(43:45):
helps.
And so I guess the point inbringing that piece up is when
you focus on building your ownlife and achieving your goals
and working on your dreams andit starts coming together.
Sadness, anxiety, frustrationstarts to dissipate.

(44:06):
And so I think it's those twopieces.
I just decided I'm going tofocus on what I can actually do
And then, once it startedworking.
I feel happy, i like beingalive and it would be great to
meet somebody.
That would be a nice addition.
I couldn't say that around thetime I wrote that essay And a
few years later I've startedfeeling lousy again.
But I can honestly say now Ifeel really good about where I

(44:31):
am.
And then, being a writer andhaving any success as a writer
brings all kinds of otheranxieties and things that you
need to occupy your mind with,but it's worth it.

Jessica (44:40):
I'm curious after dreaming about something for 25
years, it finally became areality, And in a really big way
.
what does that feel like foryou?

I'll say the less sunny part first, since we're
talking about people comingabout these journeys.
For me, it taking so long makesme scared about it going away.
Right, when you work forsomething for so long, you're
like, okay, it's here now.
I'm not saying no to things.

(45:13):
I'm over-taxing myself.
I haven't had a vacation inmore than a year and I need to
let that go.
I need to just trust that if Ikeep doing the work, it's not
going to go away.
And there is anxiety, especiallyin creative fields, as we
talked about.
Not everybody is like hey,welcome, you're great, i'm glad
you're with us.
Sometimes you have people whohave their own issues and egos.

(45:36):
So there is still anxiety,there is still a lot of work,
there is still fear, but thereis also an immense amount of joy
and endless gratitude.
I would say.
Related to your last question,i hope that I don't only get one
thing the partner or the career, but I will say it's so

(46:00):
meaningful and immenselygratifying to wake up every day
and my tasks are about writing.
I write, i read, i writelectures, i talk to people like
you and it's all about the thingI love most in the world.

Jessica (46:16):
A little fairy came down Now that I'm experiencing
it, even with the anxieties itcauses, like all right, i'll
take the career, because itmeans that you are
self-expressed and you areself-actualized in your
wholeness.
So you're right that someoneelse becomes an addition, but
they're not there to completeyou, absolutely.
You are complete.

Yeah, exactly, i'm perfectly articulated.
I need to.
Just I don't know why I'm, i'mjust afraid of like if I take my
foot off the pedal.
Yeah, but.

Jessica (46:47):
I've also proven, though, that the pedal isn't
necessarily going to take youwhere you think it's going to
take you.
Right, yeah, yeah.

Melissa (46:53):
This is one of my biggest like soap boxes around,
taking action from fear andtaking action from love and
taking action from trust.
And when we get the thing again, it's like how do I want to
feel in pursuit of whatever isto come?
And I'm a really big proponentof sustainable, holistic success
.
And if we put all of our eggsin the traditional success

(47:14):
basket then we crumble or healthwill fail.
And it's very hard, It's noteasy.
And when we look at longevityof a dream, how do we want to
feel in pursuit?
Because it's all about thejourney, It's not about the
destination.
How do I nourish and take careof myself while still
acknowledging the fear and theanxiety that comes with?

(47:34):
I don't want it to go away.
I love it so much.
I think it's a lifelong processof figuring out that dance of
balance.

Well, i really appreciated the question you
asked about when you're not sortof born onto the path right,
you're not born into a communityof people who know how to get
you where you're trying to go,and I think that that's part of
it too, that once you finally dohave it right, then you're like
okay, i don't even know how tokeep it.

Jessica (48:02):
That happened to me Yeah, I did really well went
viral and then the amount ofpressure I felt to sustain it,
to deliver my next thing, wasactually debilitating.

Oh, really To me at the time.
Yeah, how did you get throughthat?

Jessica (48:15):
I didn't make anything.
Yeah, i've gone five yearssince I've made that, you know,
so we're six years.
Yeah, i mean, a lot of otherthings happened in my life.
My marriage ended and I had toput my attention in other places
anyway, but I think I had toheal.
That's what I did, is, i had toheal a lot of what was driving
my career forward, which was, Ithink, rooted in what you were

(48:36):
talking about with actors, likewanting to be validated, wanting
to be seen in a particular wayAnd I still want to be an actor,
but I want to do it from notthe place of having to deliver
expectations to others, but formy own joy and my own play and
my own fulfillment and wantingto be of service in different
ways.

But I had to check that, i had to clear that
for me, you know, it's reallyinteresting that you say that,
because I'm older I'm going tobe 52 in August And I think when
you start getting into thispart of middle age you stop
giving F as much.
You know what I mean, becauseyou see how big and immense life

(49:17):
is and that your dreams, asimportant as they are, are just
part of something larger in yourown life and the anxieties and
stuff start to kind of diminish.
So my point is that I'm notfreaking out as much as a lot of
my peers are who've had debutsin the last year, and I think

(49:38):
that's part of it.
But I am still feeling someanxieties and I am still having
days where I am worrying aboutthings And I wish that we could
go to each other, not onlyliterally the writers that I'm
talking about, just all of us ingeneral.
We can't admit that.
It's hard, you know.
We can't admit that we'reafraid or scared or anxious, And

(50:02):
I kind of wish that we could.
This is the challenge of success, right Is that it can be
isolating.
People are being strange to you.
People who you thought wereyour friends disappear.
People who never gave you thetime of day suddenly want to be
your best pal.
You're worried about it goingaway.
You're worried about why am Inot on that list?

(50:25):
And does it mean anything thatI wasn't reviewed here, which is
not what you want to do.
You just want to work.
You just want to do the writingor the craft, but I wish we
could talk about that more.
I wish we would acknowledge thattoo, because it makes it easier
to focus on the more positive,uplifting parts of the journey.

Jessica (50:43):
It goes to show like we think it's gonna solve all our
problems, right?
It's like if I just get thething, then all my problems go
away, but you just get newproblems or not necessarily
problems.
The wanting never actually ends, it just goes to the next level
, right?
And sometimes that can behelpful when we're really
pursuing something, to rememberthat your life is still right
here right now.
It's not actually in the thingyou're chasing.

Melissa (51:07):
My mentor had us do some reflections on what did she
call it Like the wanting andthe havingness, or wantingness
or havingness, whatever herlanguage was of.
Like what is your experience ofthe wanting and what is the
experience of the having?
What do you have now that youwanted before?
And the thing that I'm alsopresent to as you're talking is
this is why I'm so passionateabout community and so

(51:28):
passionate about creatingconscious community and being in
intimate circles, because theonly world I wanna live in is
the one where we are talkingabout all the things, because
we're all dealing with them, andI think part of how we do that
is we learn to do it in safecontainers with people who can
hold it, where it is the norm,and then we go out in the world
and we be the example and we bethe permission, and it's not

(51:50):
normal to do that.
But now I am like the one thatsays the thing that's like are
you guys thinking this?
Are you dealing with this?
And I think being that personis a gift.
You get to make it normal inthe circles that you're in, and
then people are like oh, i'm soglad you said that, like I've
been thinking that, but Ithought I wasn't allowed to talk
about that.

I think that is a big part of what we get to
create as women who areconsciously creating our careers
and our lives and normalizingthe shit that we're all thinking
anyway, And part of it is thatit's healing right, That it's
being able to say I'm reallystruggling or I'm really worried
about this, and having someonereceive it and hear it heals it

(52:31):
so that you can move forward anddo the next thing you need to
do.
But it also makes you realize,oh, this is just a part of the
process.
If all of the writers who havehad to go to more than 30 or 40
agents before they found onewould voice that everybody would
go, oh then this is normal,right?

(52:52):
I'm not being singled out bythe universe to have a
particularly challengingexperience.
This is just how this works, orthat there's a range of how it
works.

Melissa (53:02):
I'm feeling like this is your gift, like this is part
of who you get to be in theworld and the bigger picture
transformation that you get tomake because we always create
the thing we wish we had rightAnd you're like, oh, i wish I
had circles where this was said,and you're, i don't know.
That's just what my intuitionis like.
Maybe that's who you get to be.

Well, thank you and I'm happy to be it.
I mean, that's why I tellpeople how old I am.
I tell people it took me 25years and 50 agents.
It would be ridiculous for meto be like, oh yeah, I just
wrote this really great book Andnow I mean, come on, that would
be untrue and also totallyunhelpful And I needed somebody
like me 15 years ago to say thiswas really hard, but it

(53:46):
eventually happened.

Melissa (53:48):
Yeah, yeah, The Lizzo documentary I just love.
Lizzo She said something likethis.
I don't remember exactly whatshe said, but was like I always
wanted to see this, this, thisand this and this.
I just didn't know it was gonnahave to be me.

Yeah, and I think she's another person who's
incredibly inspiring.
What I like about this momentin our culture is that it feels
like we are acknowledging thechallenges of being a human
being.
I think that's exciting becausewe are hopefully helping each
other, and I wish we didn't feelso embarrassed about, as I said

(54:24):
, our failures or our blindspots or whatever else, so that
we could help each other and getthrough them.

Jessica (54:30):
Yeah, it's the most universal thing.
All of us are operating fromthat same wound.
And yet we all like to pretendthat we're the only one that
doesn't feel it Right, right.

And that there's some shame in being scared or
having a failure.
It's just life.
I don't know.
I mean having 25 years offailure and having success
versus never having experiencedany failure and having a life
that feels emotionally safer.

(55:03):
I don't think ultimately it'sworth it, right.
So often when we read thosearticles about what people say
on their deathbeds or in hospiceor whatever else, it's always I
wish I spent more time with thepeople I loved and I wish I
would have tried to follow mydreams and do something with my
life that felt more meaningful,outside of my either boring job

(55:23):
or whatever work I feltobligated to do, for whatever
reason.
I have a tattoo.
Actually.
That's like writing and love.
Those are the two things, right.
The work that we do in theworld that means something to us
and the connections we have.
That feels to me like ameaningful life, and there's
going to be failure anddisappointment and rejection
along the way to both of those.
And even once you have that,even if you have a happy

(55:45):
marriage, there's still gonna bemoments of estrangement and
difficulty, and that's just life.

Jessica (55:51):
Yeah.

Melissa (55:52):
This is so good.

Jessica (55:53):
Embracing the totality, all the whole experience.

Melissa (55:58):
Well, and I think your path, even what you were saying
around not having the love thething that I was really present
to is your commitment to how youwant to feel in the process of
obtaining something that'soutside of you and you don't
like the way it feels to be onapps.
So the things that didn't feelaligned to you you stopped doing

(56:19):
which you do have control overand you started to live in
alignment with your values,trust, joy, gratitude are things
I've heard you say multipletimes, and that you're committed
to living a life centeredaround your values and letting
go of the things that didn'tfeel the way that you wanted to
feel.
even as you pursue your nextbook, you have these lessons in

(56:41):
your body of.
I know how it feels to go aboutsomething that abandons who I
am.
I know how it feels to live injoy and do something with joy at
the center of the pursuit ofthis thing And I think, as long
as you keep doing that, you willhave the and you will have all
the things you dream of.
That, to me, is the key toliving a life well lived, as all

(57:03):
the things that you're speakingabout.
I think that it's been such anhonor to hear your story and to
have you take us inside of thereal, raw, vulnerable truths
that you've been up against, aswell as the joy and the
gratitude and getting tocelebrate what has happened and
then who you get to continue tobe to make more of these
miracles come to life.
It's just been such an honor tohave you here.

Thank you, that's really nice of you to say, and
I think a key to it is don't dothings that make you feel bad
about yourself.
It's really wonderful to have apartner, but if you're doing
things that make you feel badand cry all the time, maybe it's
not the direction to go.
I think that looking for joy,looking for meaning, looking for

(57:48):
things that align with yourvalues and who you are and who
you wanna be in the world,staying in that direction, even
if it takes longer, is gonna getwhere you wanna go and or to a
place that maybe you didn'texpect, that still feels
meaningful and joyful to you.

Jessica (58:04):
I think we also call in our best partners when we're in
our self-worth.
So when we're feeling terribleabout ourselves or operating
from desperation, it's reallyeasy to find yourself in
something that isn't actuallywhat you're longing for.

I remember I was in a relationship with a guy
this is a while back and I hadthis moment of clarity.
It's like, wow, i am really notin a good place because he's
not in a really good place, butI think this is his usual place
And I'm so sorry, that's truefor him.
But I need to figure out what'swrong and come out of that.

(58:41):
And so I totally agree with youAnd the people that I'm meeting
now and attracting even just asfriends.
We're in alignment, i feel goodwith them, i feel comfortable
with them, i enjoy their company.
It's a mutual exchange ofsupport and friendship and
laughter, and that's the placewe all wanna be, i think.

Melissa (59:01):
Yeah, our lives become a match of the energetic
frequency that we're carrying,and so you're now attracting
people that are operating atyour frequency.

Jessica (59:09):
Yeah, it feels good.
So don't give up trust thejourney.
Keep coming back to self-love.
That's what I'm taking.
Thank you so much.

Yes, absolutely, thank you.

Jessica (59:21):
It was a pleasure, such a pleasure, to meet you And
good luck to both of you, thankyou, and I hope everybody goes
and reads your book today.
It's beautiful.
Hey there, rebels.
If you enjoyed this podcast, wewould love your support in a

(59:44):
few quick ways.
You could like, follow orsubscribe on your preferred
platform to help others discoverus too.
You could also leave us areview.
We also have a Facebook groupand you can find us at
facebookcom.
Slash groups slash interrebelpodcast, and you can find us on
Instagram at interrebelpodcast.
Your support means everythingto us and we can't wait to

(01:00:04):
continue this journey together.

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