September 24, 2025 • 51 mins
What does your relationship with food reveal about your relationship with yourself? We sit down with functional nutritionist and food psychology specialist Sue Van Raes to explore the powerful intersection of nourishment, identity, and self-trust. We talk about emotional eating, the cultural narratives around control and discipline, and how reclaiming pleasure and intuition in how we eat can ripple into every other area of our lives. Whether you’ve struggled with food or are simply ready for a more integrated and joyful relationship with your body, this episode offers both insight and real permission.
Topics:
- Food psychology + emotional eating
- Women’s relationship with nourishment
- Stress + hormone regulation
- Nervous system patterns around food
- Reclaiming pleasure + intuitive eating
- Identity and body trust
- Healing through nourishment
- Letting go of all-or-nothing thinking
Timestamps:
00:00 Welcome and Introductions
00:25 Sue's Background and Achievements
01:02 Developing a Sacred Friendship
02:10 Exploring the Inner Rebel
06:53 Sue's Journey of Self-Discovery
08:57 Food and Emotional Well-being
22:40 Navigating Expansion and Visibility
26:53 Serendipitous Connections and Opportunities
28:39 Overcoming Podcast Nerves
29:56 Embracing Fun and Freedom in Book Launch
31:18 Slowing Down for Authentic Expansion
32:21 Questioning Limiting Beliefs
35:21 Understanding Sensations and Food Relationships
40:08 Exploring Different Types of Hunger
46:18 The Pleasure of Reminiscing
49:39 Living with Purpose and Aliveness
If you loved today’s episode, please leave a review and share your favorite takeaways by screenshotting this episode and tagging us on Instagram! We also have a free virtual monthly community call on the 3rd Thursday of every month, join here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
UNKNOWN (00:00):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (00:02):
To even question what you've been told is true is
incredibly courageous.
It doesn't always feel likecourage what looks like courage
to other people.
For me, it feels like survival.
This is our personal medicine.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion,
by integrity, then I really dothink that I know who I am.
SPEAKER_01 (00:21):
There is a peace that is indescribable when
you're being who you are andyou're living your purpose.
I'm not going to come to the endof my life and be like, I didn't
live the life I was meant tolive.
SPEAKER_03 (00:30):
Can I be so comfortable in the idea This is
the Inner
SPEAKER_04 (00:40):
Rebel Podcast.
We're so happy to have a dearfriend, Sue Van Rays, here on
the podcast today.
Sue and I just realized thattoday is our official one-year
anniversary of knowing oneanother.
(01:01):
And we were together last yearon the one-year anniversary of
Nova's birth.
And so there's a lot ofbeautiful one-year anniversaries
happening this week.
So welcome, Sue.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
I'm so excited to chat with bothof you.
It's going to be fun.
Sue is the author of Food andFreedom.
She's a functional nutritionist,food psychology specialist, and
psycho-spiritual practitioner.
(01:22):
She shares her body, mind,heart, and soul approach to make
peace with your plate and yourlife.
She has been featured innumerous publications, including
People Magazine, The ChopraCenter, The Sacred Science,
Lululemon, Natural SolutionsMagazine, Origin Magazine.
Oh my gosh, Elephant Journal.
I don't know how to say this.
Next one.
Hanuman?
Hanuman?
(01:42):
Hanuman.
Oh, Hanuman.
Yes, Hanuman.
Sounds like a festival I mightneed to learn about.
SPEAKER_05 (01:48):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (01:49):
And Travel Magazine.
Welcome, Sue.
In addition to all of theincredible things that you have
on that list, I just have reallyloved getting to know you over
the last year, getting to knowyour heart and soul.
And we've developed such asacred friendship.
So it feels extra special to getto bring your voice on here with
Jess and I.
SPEAKER_05 (02:07):
Thank you so much.
It's so meaningful.
And it was so special to be withyou last night for the one year
anniversary of the Nova.
And I just feel like whatkindred spirits we are.
So and it's great to be with youtoo, Jess.
I'm so
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
excited.
excited to get to know you.
Welcome to the show.
And I sent Melissa a messagethis morning like I am so
excited to have thisconversation because I'm
realizing I think I've alwaysknown this, but it just feels
very present for me how deep myrelationship with food goes.
And I think that's probably truefor everyone, but it's really
present for me right now.
(02:41):
So I think this conversation isreally timely and I'm excited.
SPEAKER_05 (02:44):
Oh, that's so great.
I'm so glad that we can havethis conversation at a time that
really is meaningful to you.
Because, you know, sometimeswhen our stuff around food is
swirling around and we feel likewe're trying to make sense of it
all, it's helpful to
SPEAKER_03 (02:58):
lean in.
Yes, I agree.
I'm very curious because we askthis question to everyone.
Then we'll go deeper and deeperinto the layers of you and your
specialty.
But I'm curious what yourrelationship has been to your
inner
SPEAKER_05 (03:15):
rebel.
Thank you so much.
(03:50):
It's interesting because I was agymnast.
And so my competitive gymnasticsschedule had me missing dinner
four to five nights a week withmy family, which right there,
when I look back at like a young10 year old life, like that was
a big significant chunk of doingsomething totally different than
(04:10):
the rest of my family who washaving this little four person
dinner every night of the weekthat I was absent for.
And so I kind of feel like thisinner restlessness.
rebel really guided me throughfor so long early early on I
also left after college to go toCentral America with a backpack
in my best friend that was veryvery out of the box at the time
(04:34):
I remember it was a funnyconversation with my dad when I
told him I was going to go toGuatemala with a backpack after
college and he was like whywould you do that like he
definitely had no context forthat in my response was why
would you spend an entire daycleaning out the eaves troughs
(04:56):
so I was just like always wewere so different like his
priority was yard work and mywhatever I don't even know if I
called it a priority at the timemy adventurous spirit wanted
more and so I left to gotraveling for almost nine months
on you know I think it was likeunder$3,000 I then moved to the
(05:18):
US with Also, a very littleamount of money and no green
card because I was in Canada.
I lived in Canada.
And so I got here and I couldn'twork, but I was kind of like,
I'm going to figure this out.
So my first job was under thetable at the snow cone cart on
Pearl Street for six dollars and50 cents an hour.
(05:39):
I love this, you know, andeverything was like that for so
long.
Like I had two home births and Igot divorced.
So then I was single parenting.
I had a one year old and a fiveyear old when I got divorced.
That was out of the box.
That was very much having me tapinto my inner rebel.
I was in school at the time.
And when I finished school abouta year after my divorce, I
(05:59):
started my business as anentrepreneur, which was also
very edgy for someone as asingle mom.
I look back and I'm like, wow,that was brave because
entrepreneurship, as we know, isa little up and down with
finances and flow and clientsand all of that.
So I had part-time jobs on theside.
Sometimes to kind of help thingsmove along.
(06:21):
But I don't know.
There's just something in methat was different than where I
came from.
And it's been scary at times,but I also have felt that I had
no choice but to follow thatpart of me.
I just always had this innerknowing that I needed to listen
(06:41):
to.
I remember when my dad gave mean application form to work for
BC Hydro, which was the BritishColumbia the province I'm from,
which was the hydro company.
And I like threw it in thetrash.
I was like, what are you talkingabout?
Like, this is so not me to goand get a conventional job like
that.
And there's nothing wrong withthat job.
(07:03):
It's just that I knew for surethat wasn't for me way early on.
So it's just been an interestingjourney to kind of look back and
reflect on all of those layersand be like, I don't know who
the fuck I thought I was, but Iwas definitely doing some stuff
that was out of the box forforever.
And it was scary, but it wasalso
SPEAKER_04 (07:22):
rewarding.
SPEAKER_05 (07:49):
doing it on purpose.
I wasn't ever like, I should dothis and be cool or something.
Like I was following somethingthat it was happening in so many
different eras of my life that Idon't feel like I could have not
done those things.
Like I had no mentor around it.
I was just, I mean, maybe MaryLou Retton or Nadia Comaneci or
(08:12):
something, but nothing that wasgiving me that much freedom and
permission.
Like my mom, she was like, She'sthe sweetest thing in the world.
And she's very much a rulefollower.
Speaking of Virgos, we had thisconversation last night.
She's like, so by the book.
And I remember so many timesbeing like, actually, you don't
have to do it that way.
And she'd be like, you do haveto do it that way.
(08:33):
She's British, you know, soshe's British and a Virgo.
And she would just look at melike, who are you?
And how are you part of myreality?
I would kind of give her likeshockwaves at times doing things
that she thought were supposedto be from how you set the table
to the bigger things in life.
(08:54):
She just did everything verymethodically.
So I think it was just my soul'scalling because it's been there
since I can remember.
And I don't know if you guysknow the character from Kerry
Washington's character fromwhat's the show called?
Oh, Scandal?
Scandal.
Yeah.
Yes.
So you know how she's like a
SPEAKER_04 (09:12):
fixer?
Never get pop culture right.
That was a very big moment forme.
We just paused
SPEAKER_05 (09:18):
and acknowledged.
Good for you because I don'teither.
Anyway, I just feel like I'vebeen channeling her since I've
watched the show.
But even before that, like I'mjust like, yeah, we'll figure it
out.
We'll figure it out.
We'll fix it.
We're going to make it work.
We're going to do what we needto do.
We're going to just keep puttingone foot in front of the other.
And when I started watching thatshow years ago, I was like, oh,
yeah, OK, she's my hero rightnow.
I think it just goes back intowho we
SPEAKER_03 (09:38):
are.
SPEAKER_05 (09:39):
Well,
SPEAKER_03 (09:40):
I find it really fascinating learning this about
you that so much of your workcenters around the connection
between food and freedom,because freedom is so clearly an
essential value of yours.
So I'd like to weave in the foodaspect then and hear a little
bit about your own relationshipto that and your journey with
food that led you into the workyou now do.
SPEAKER_05 (10:01):
Yeah, thank you for that.
So alongside all of thosedifferent timeframes going all
the way back to my childhood, Ihad undiagnosed hypoglycemia
that was really severe.
And I was always crashing, likeblood sugar crashing and feeling
like my energy would plummet andI would be insatiable, just like
(10:22):
ravenous all the time.
And a couple things came out ofthat.
One is that was also notladylike, according to my
British mother, and how you'resupposed to be, right?
That was during the late 70s andearly 80s.
So there was like the wholefat-free, eat light kind of
movement happening.
And there was stigma around whatwomen should eat.
(10:45):
We should eat in a way thatlooks sort of like the word my
mom would use is dainty.
That's kind of a British word.
Oh my gosh.
I'm the opposite of dainty.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And so I think you're supposedto eat like very small salads
with like a little something ontop and just kind of like chew
your iceberg lettuce 700 timesbefore you swallow.
(11:07):
Yeah, exactly.
And then I coupled that withbeing a gymnast.
And so I had a huge energyoutput and I was underweight a
lot as a kid.
I had to go to doctor's visitsfor being underweight, not
because I was restricting, butbecause I I was just not getting
enough food and so it was reallyinteresting like I was
underweight but then everyone inmy family kind of was like
you're like the human who'salways hungry in our family in a
(11:28):
way it was like the family jokebut then at the same time they
would be like you need to stopyou're making a scene you know
if I was at the snack table atlike a barbecue or something
because I was just trying tofind some way to satiate myself
so that really led me down aroad of wanting to understand my
body's biochemistry around foodand this really was going on all
(11:50):
through college until I actuallygot to Boulder, Colorado in my
early 20s.
And I made a new friend and sheworked as the assistant to a
really well-known naturopath andended up with an appointment
there.
And she drew me some blood sugarcharts after I think I told her
I had pancakes for breakfast orsomething.
And I mean, basically, I startedto understand how my body was
(12:14):
always spiking and crashing.
Oh, I also became a vegetarianwhen I moved to Boulder because
that was trend Very much thething that was the healthy thing
to do at the time.
And I loved health.
This was before I got mymaster's degree.
So anyways, this naturopath putme on a meat at every meal diet.
And it was a really dramatic 180from the vegetarian diet I'd
(12:36):
been eating.
But I swear to you, it was a dayor two and I started to feel
like myself.
By the time I got to her office,I was kind of like crawling in
like crying, like begging formercy because I was so depleted.
And I had a two-year-old who washigh energy and I was just like
done.
I was just fried and I couldn'thandle my life.
(12:57):
And so when I started eating inthis particular way, I honestly
felt like I went through thistransformation in just a couple
of days and my life startedfeeling manageable and I started
feeling more even and I couldparent better.
And anyways, I think it reallyimpacted my brain chemistry and
I started to really come back tohaving some hope.
And I was in the process ofdeciding what what I wanted to
(13:19):
get my master's degree in.
And I think that was a bigturning point for me, that I can
really see how food is likemedicine.
And I think it was like a yearlater when I enrolled in a
master's degree that was inholistic nutrition.
And then at the same time, I wasbusting myths that I'd grown up
with.
Like first, I was eating foodthat I was craving instead of
(13:42):
eating what I was taught Ishould eat.
I was also listening to my body,which I'd never done before.
I mean, gymnastics, we weretaught to override our bodies
like hardcore, right?
It was like really push throughfear, push through sadness, push
through tears, stop crying, pushthrough pain.
So being in a place likeBoulder, Colorado, where there
(14:03):
was a little bit more of anawareness and a spiritual
community and I found yoga and Istarted listening to my body, it
was like 180 degree game changerbecause then I had permission
and I wasn't the only one for Iwas like getting support from
others who were doing the samekind of thing.
(14:25):
And it just became such aintegral time to basically
rewire my whole way of doingthings.
And as I started deepening intomy private practice over time, I
just kept finding people orclients, mostly women who were
seeing me that were using foodto dim their light, if that
(14:46):
makes sense.
And whether that be binge eatingto cover up emotion or whether
that was just comfort eating tocover up emotion or whether that
was restricting or whether itwas over exercising or just
being dominated by this internaldialogue that was so judgmental
and self-aggressive.
(15:06):
I was like, this is not freedom.
Freedom is when we can take careof ourselves and build
resiliency around what's goingon in our lives.
And our eating can really besupportive of that.
But it It can also really bringus down if we don't know what
we're doing.
SPEAKER_03 (15:49):
Mm-hmm.
(16:19):
It becomes this kind of likeweird struggle and not something
that you can actually avoidbecause you have to eat it every
day.
It's not like you can go to AAand cut it out of your life.
You actually have to address itand address the feelings that
are coming up as a result ofdenying yourself the things that
aren't good for you or actuallylearning to listen to your body.
(16:40):
So I'm wondering if you canspeak to why food is such an
emotional thing for us and howdo we we address what is
actually going on underneathwhen we want to use food as
either a drug or a form ofcontrol or some of the
dysfunctional aspects of itbegin to show up.
(17:02):
I know this is a big subject,but...
SPEAKER_05 (17:04):
No, I love talking about this.
I really do.
It's so integral to myday-to-day work, for sure.
Well, the first thing I want tosay is food is emotional, and we
make decisions about food basedon how we feel every time we
open the fridge or sit down atthe table.
Like that is just human and itis okay and it is just how it
(17:25):
is.
What is problematic is not thatfood is emotional.
It is that when food gets out ofbalance coupled with our
emotions, right?
So when we take that to anextreme and we're using food to
numb or to manipulate the shapeof our bodies so we can feel
lovable or what have you, that'swhere it gets exacerbated.
(17:49):
And so if we look back, we seethat for centuries, people have
been using food as a way tocelebrate, as a way to find
pleasure, as a way to connectwith each other, as a way to
feel nourished.
I mean, we can all think of atime when food felt like an
internal hug, right?
Like where it's just like soyummy and it feels comforting.
(18:10):
Like I just made a pot of soupthe other day when it was
snowing.
And there's something about thatthat is just so comforting and
nourishing.
And that is, I think, perfectlynatural and perfectly normal but
obviously what we're dealingwith in our society and the
stress that we have day to dayand all the things we hold that
(18:31):
we're taking on as ourresponsibility we talked about
that a lot last night at thenova celebration like especially
women we're holding so much forso many people and it is heavy
lifting sometimes and it's soeasy to want to escape that
feeling of stress or thefeelings that are bubbling up
(18:55):
that are uncomfortable.
And so food has the ability toregulate our nervous systems
temporarily, right?
So it feels regulating, it feelsgrounding, it feels comforting,
but then the stressor that'sbubbling up isn't going to
generally go away.
It's going to just kind of beoff to the side until that
(19:17):
feeling of comfort passes And Ithink that there's a couple
things.
Sometimes I think we need tolook at like what we're taking
on and why we're holding so muchand how we can shift that
relationship to our externallives.
But then what's reallyinteresting to me is also what
is it that we're afraid offeeling and what does that
(19:40):
actually feel like?
is putting ourselves out thereand being out of our comfort
zone.
Like last night, I don't knowhow you were feeling, Melissa.
You're really good at holdingspace.
But I was like, okay, I did alittle thing and I can get a
little nervous.
I can start getting into myhead.
(20:03):
I can worry what other peoplethink.
I feel my inner critic get alittle louder.
And I noticed that that comeswith a sensation.
So there's a thought about it.
And then if I go into my body,there's this sensation.
It's a little bit of likeclenchy adrenaline you know
feeling something in my body itdoesn't hurt but it feels
(20:24):
uncomfortable but it is so easyfor us to be like get me out of
this sensation
SPEAKER_06 (20:30):
yeah
SPEAKER_05 (20:30):
get me out of this sensation because i don't want
to feel it so i'm going to dosomething whatever the thing is
for some people that's food forsome people it's alcohol for
some people it's just checkingout in other ways for some
people it's scrolling on theirphone but what's interesting is
if we can go into that sensationand sit there for even a minute
(20:52):
or 30 seconds and be like oh wowthis actually is just energy
moving in my body it's just thissensation that has these
different textures and differentqualities to it and I'm afraid
of it so I generally try toleave that and make it go away
as fast as possible that couldbe something happening at work
(21:16):
that could be somethinghappening with our kids that is
triggering us.
That could be a relationshipdynamic.
That could be standing in themirror in the morning and
getting dressed and not likinghow we look.
I mean, anything under the sunthat brings up a feeling,
disappointment's a big one thatpeople avoid.
And that can keep us feelingreally small, right?
(21:37):
Like we just don't want to putourselves out there because what
if we get disappointed?
And so then I'm like, okay,well, what's disappointment feel
like?
For me, it's a little bit like apit in my stomach.
I'd rather feel the joy of goingon a beautiful hike or having an
orgasm than I would the feelingof disappointment.
But you know, it's also notpainful.
It's better than breaking yourleg.
(21:58):
It's not like spraining yourankle even.
It's not even as bad as stubbingyour toe.
But it does feel uncomfortable.
And I think we tend to be like,this is happening.
Here's the story.
Here's the meaning I'm decidingto put on the thing.
And now my mind is making mysensation worse because they're
kind of like turning Mm-hmm.
(22:48):
don't have to check out asquickly or at all.
And I just want to say like,it's a practice, right?
So sitting with the sensationfor 30 seconds is a really good
place to start before you do thething that you do.
And then maybe a minute, andthen maybe you can get to 10
minutes, and maybe you can getto an hour, and maybe you can
get to full resolution overtime.
(23:10):
But it's interesting how much weavoid sensation.
That's what I think.
SPEAKER_04 (23:15):
I have so much.
There's so much in there.
Oh my gosh.
I want to bring it back tonervous system and food, but I'm
actually really present to thesensations we experience in
these expansive moments, whichyou talked about last night,
leading the circle that you didfor us.
And in this past year whereyou've really anchored into your
(23:35):
bigger mission, bringing yourbook to life and getting
incredibly visible in the lastyear since I've known you.
And, you know, a lot of peoplethat come on this show tend to
be those people people who getpretty visible at some point in
their career where they reallyanchor into this mission that's
been driving you your whole lifeand fucking go for it and I
(23:58):
would love for you to speak toyour experience of a how did you
know it was time to go big inyour mission and how did you
navigate what you were justspeaking to in your body in that
physical sensation that happensthe entire time as we're
expanding because like I wasgoing blind last night I don't
(24:18):
know I think I told you a littlebit.
Yeah, you were.
My body's new thing is to likeactually lose vision when I'm
holding a watch.
So that's the new thing that I'mexperiencing.
So I would love for you to speakto it because we're expanders
here and it's a lot to step intothat.
SPEAKER_05 (24:33):
Yeah.
Well, I want to say thateverything that you just spoke
about, about expanding, you arelooking at this very big
externalized zoom out, right?
Which is great.
Like it's so great to zoom out.
And it has been an incrediblyexpansive severe for me in like
a gazillion different ways butalso what's happening on a
(24:54):
day-to-day basis or what'shappening like appointment by
appointment or podcast this isliterally like I think it's in
the 40s like I've been on like40 something podcasts since my
book came out which is insanethere's a couple things I've
noticed like first of all I'mnot thinking about 40 podcasts
when I'm thinking about going ona podcast I'm thinking about I'm
(25:18):
gonna go on a podcast And I'mlike, okay, so that's like a
bite-sized chunk, right, ofdoing the things that I did to
promote my book.
So it was really like one thingat a time, first of all.
And also the timing of the bookcame partially because of all
the different layers that ittook to get a book deal.
And then when I actually did geta book deal, the timing was now
(25:41):
you're writing a book.
So there was like that.
It actually lined up really wellfor me because I got the book
deal at the end.
of August a couple of years ago.
And I had a school year to writethe book, which felt really like
natural in my rhythm.
I was like, okay, my kids werein college.
I'm like, okay, we're all goingto just have a school year
together.
(26:01):
And I'm going to write a bookand you guys are going to go to
college and it's going to bedone.
And both of my kids graduated.
One graduated community collegeand went on to CU Denver.
So he's still there.
But we all graduated at the sametime, me from the book and them
from both of their collegeprograms.
So that felt really good.
But I didn't really choose thattiming.
(26:22):
I mean, I'm sure my soul did orsomething, but it just happened.
And every single step of the waywas a bite-sized chunk.
And my brain does that reallywell.
I think it's like a Capricornthing too.
So I got the book deal and Istarted writing in September.
I had, I think, three chaptersalready written for the
(26:43):
proposal.
And it was like, oh, okay, checkthis out.
There's nine months and there'snine chapters.
So I'm like, oh, that's obvious.
Now I'm just going to write achapter a month.
And I think it gave me like onemonth at the end to have a month
of space before I had to turn itin and to kind of go over the
whole thing.
But basically it was like, oh,month by month.
Okay, so I'm going to write achapter a month.
(27:04):
That felt doable.
And then I looked at my scheduleand I was like, oh, I have two
days I'm not with clients.
I'm going to use those two daysas writing days.
And that was tight because Istill have other stuff I had to
do.
But I was like, no, I'm going toreally commit to these two days
every week to make my writingdays.
And I just sort of laid it outlike a map.
September, I'm going to writethis chapter.
October, I'm going to write thischapter.
(27:26):
And ironically, I was like, oh,check this out.
I'm going to be in Bali when mybook manuscript is due.
So I can either turn it inbefore, turn it in the day after
I get home while I have jet lag,or I could stay in Bali for a
few days and do one final readthrough and turn it in in this
place that's been like the mosthealing place in the lining up
(27:49):
little bit by little bit.
Same with the retreat thatMelissa and I met on.
I was on Instagram about a monthbefore that, and my friend Kate
Northrup was posting that therewas an opening on her retreat of
12 women.
I hadn't really been in touchwith Kate personally for years,
but we had known each other forover 20 years.
And I messaged her on this DMthat said, I don't know if I
(28:12):
make enough money to come onthis retreat because it was for
high earners, but I'minterested.
And then she She was likemessaging me back right away.
Totally.
I'll send you the information.
And I had always been like, oh,it'd be really great if Kate
would endorse my book.
This would be a great way toreconnect with her.
So I went on the retreat, senther the manuscript.
It's just things line up so wellwhen we're tuned into our
(28:34):
purpose.
This particular morning afterKate read the manuscript, I was
laying in bed.
It was six in the morning andshe's on the East Coast.
My phone lit up with a text.
I didn't really look at thephone because I was still kind
of half awake and not reallywanting to get up yet.
But I was like, I think I sawKate's name on my phone.
But I'm like, just don't get upyet.
Just wait a little while.
(28:55):
You can sleep a little longer.
And I had been thinking about,wouldn't it be amazing to get on
her podcast?
And I was laying in bed thinkingabout how I was going to pitch
the podcast that morning whenthe phone lit up with her
inviting me on the podcast.
You can't make this stuff up,right?
It happens so organically, Ithink, when we're really feeling
(29:17):
the channeling of whatever it iscoming through us that's
supposed to be our next thing.
But there were so many littlesteps that led up to it, and
they were all one thing at atime.
But I was so nervous for thatpodcast.
I mean, I flew to Miami.
I had to be on camera the wholetime.
It was her first full YouTubepodcast.
(29:39):
I didn't know that, thankfully,at the time.
I didn't know what to wear.
I hadn't done anything for mybook yet.
It I had to do a lot of innerstuff to get myself ready for
that whole experience.
But then I started getting somemomentum and getting warmed up.
And I just kept having torecalibrate my nervous system
(30:01):
through every single phase.
It was big work, but I knewthat.
I was like, I'm signing up forthis author experience.
I know it's going to be a hugeamount of growth in so many more
ways than writing the book.
And I knew that that would belike a way for me to have my own
inner transformation.
So it's been incredible,actually.
(30:23):
It's been really fun.
Yeah.
Does that answer your question?
SPEAKER_04 (30:28):
Yeah.
I mean, this is it's so funnybecause I know Jess is like
really wanting to dig into thefood.
And I'm like, I really want todig into the like expansive
entrepreneurial journey.
And I actually know you careabout both things, Jess, but I
can really feel myself like Iwant to go down this hole with
you for like the next six hours.
SPEAKER_05 (30:47):
It's fun to talk about.
There was There's no roadmap,but I just kept making a little
mini roadmap for every phasethat I could.
And then last winter, rightbefore the book was going into
launch period, I started to getreally stressed.
And I started to feel this like,it has to be so good.
And this launch has to be so topnotch.
And I started catching myselfand I'm like, you know what,
(31:09):
this is not freedom.
And this is not how I'm doingit.
And I stopped myself from goinginto this stress pattern, I
caught myself and I'm like, if Ii'm gonna do this i'm gonna make
it fucking fun that's what i'mgonna do that's freedom and so
every time there was anopportunity to do different
kinds of promotional stuff anddifferent kinds of expansion i
(31:31):
really tried to find the fun init and i really did find the fun
in it and it really was fun totalk to so many people just like
talking to you both today likethis is so enjoyable for me but
when we get in our head so muchyou know we can take away the
pleasure so i just had to keepreminding my I'm not going to
write the book about easing ourfood stress and then be stressed
(31:53):
when I'm launching it.
That just doesn't
SPEAKER_03 (32:09):
make any sense.
pieces.
And with that, and this is how Isee expansion, with that, your
nervous system, as you broughtup, Melissa, does acclimatize to
every phase that you're at inorder to build more capacity for
(32:30):
the next thing.
But also what I hear and whatyou just said is as you slow
down and allow that to happen,you can also then be a
co-creator in that expansion interms of being very mindful and
very intentional about whatyou're building.
If you're moving too fast, ifyou're not actually allowing
each stage to digest I love thatthese are all like
SPEAKER_05 (33:06):
food.
the world and then there's theinner freedom and it's a little
different a limitation onourselves that we've decided is
(33:27):
true based on whatever based onour childhood based on some
social construct that we'vetaken on and being able to see
where we have those limitationswhen things start to come up and
to see if we actually do reallybelieve them to be true because
(33:47):
the question like, is this true?
Has been a big question for mefor a long time.
And that comes from the work ofByron Katie.
I got really into her probablylike 15 years ago for a while.
But that one question that shetalks about a lot has really
impacted me because so manytimes when I'll have a thought
or a feeling about a limitationin myself, if I can catch it and
(34:09):
just say like, is it true?
And then her second question, isit really true?
Which is a nice second question.
That's her Yeah, it's good thatshe put that one in there
because I think sometimes ourfirst reaction is like, yeah, it
is.
And then the second time you'relike, well, maybe not.
Maybe it's not true.
Maybe there's differentpossibilities for us that we
(34:32):
don't even realize are there andwe limit ourselves so much.
I think finding that innerdialogue and finding those go-to
ways we limit ourselves are sohelpful.
SPEAKER_03 (34:42):
I think it's so important that you bring this
up.
When you were talking beforeabout making that statement,
separation in regards to food,in regards to, okay, I have a
sensation.
Can I be with the sensation andnot believe the story?
I'm reminded of my therapistsaid to me, one of my favorite
therapists said to me, feel it,don't believe it.
And I use that phrase a lot.
(35:04):
Feel it, don't believe it.
Allow yourself to be with thesensation, allow it to move
through you, but don't believethe story attached.
And then adding in thisdimension of what you're saying,
I think people really need tohear this.
I think they need to understandthat our minds operate through
story and narrative and that wevery rarely question that
narrative.
And so we assume the feelingmeans something and it means
(35:26):
something about us that we'retelling ourselves it means.
But this is sort of the nextlevel of that.
It's one thing to just feel itand separate the thought and
another thing to actually startquestioning whether the thought
has truth at all.
SPEAKER_05 (35:36):
Absolutely.
My first realization of thatcame from a T-shirt shop on
Pearl Street Mall.
There was a T-shirt that said...
Literally, there was thist-shirt and the only thing it
said was, don't believeeverything you think.
I was like, I don't know.
I was in my 20s.
I'm like, huh, well, that'sinteresting.
(35:57):
I just thought, of course, thatI would believe my thoughts for
the most part.
I hadn't really questioned them.
It kind of started this littlecascade of, hmm, what if my
thoughts aren't always true?
It's so powerful to be able tonotice those moments.
Something I wanted to say aboutsensation that's been really
coming up for me a lot lately,and I I've been studying rapid
(36:19):
resolution therapy.
And in rapid resolution therapy,we talk about how sensation is
our unconscious mind telling usto do something.
So if you were an animal in thewild and you were just having a
calm experience of eating grass,and then you had this sensation
(36:40):
of fear, most likely becausethere was a predator, you
wouldn't question the fear.
You would just run.
The fear would be telling you torun and you would be like one
minute grass one minute run youwouldn't be like oh I wish I was
still eating grass or oh maybeI'll eat some grass later you
would just be like I'm runningthat's it no story and what
(37:00):
happens is sometimes that's trueright like I've had moments
where my sensation has led me todo something to protect myself
or to keep myself safe or tofeel like I don't really feel
safe with this person orwhatever it is and then there's
other times where it's old stuffthat's not about running from
(37:23):
the predator because there's nopredator there's no need to run
but we are still with ourunresolved old stuff our primal
brain is telling us to run andso it gets confusing because
we're like run no eat grass norun no eat grass and we don't
understand that those unresolvedpain points wounds traumas
(37:47):
patterns what have you, aresometimes unresolved and
therefore happening on kind ofoverdrive.
And that can really be confusingfor people when they're trying
to navigate them, especiallywith their relationship to food,
because when we're constantlyhaving a stress response in our
nervous system, that's notbecause we're unsafe.
(38:10):
Literally, it's because of anunresolved thing.
Then it can kind of create thiscycle with food that's like,
okay, I'm going to eat the foodto comfort myself, but the
sensation is going to still bethere because it's been there
for 10 years or 15 years orhowever long.
And so it's about how can welearn to resolve what is driving
that sensation when there'snothing to be done?
SPEAKER_03 (38:33):
What makes this so tricky, I think, with food
specifically is that it'sprobably the first thing that
we're taught when we're veryyoung.
Even if you think aboutbreastfeeding, right?
You're crying and
SPEAKER_04 (38:44):
then
SPEAKER_03 (38:45):
you're fed.
It's such a source of soothingand nourishment and so there's
both this association of wellthis is the quick fix but then
there's all of these societallevels and also like family
cultural levels of shamingaround food and shaming our
SPEAKER_05 (39:01):
bodies totally it's so complicated especially for
women it's not not for men but Ithink it's just different for
women because you're right ourattachment style is
foundationally related to foodright which is really coming out
in the research more and morethat a lot of the studies around
(39:23):
disordered eating and attachmentstyle are so profound because
they're really seeing like somuch of how we attach is going
to be how we relate to food.
And so if you're an anxiousattacher, then you're probably
going to be feeling anxiousaround food on a subtle level or
maybe on a grand level.
(39:44):
And same with avoidant, like youcan feel avoidant around food.
Because of your attachmentstyle.
And so you really nailed it downto the real core ways in which
we were tended to as babies,that is foundational to our
relationship to food, ourrelationship to self, and then
of course, our relationship withhow we are with others in our
(40:05):
life.
So there's so many ways to lookat it.
And I think to just peel awaylittle layers at a time to see
how we can start to really buildself trust.
Now, And also to really buildself-compassion, because we also
just criticize ourself for someof these behaviors that are, I
(40:26):
wouldn't necessarily sayinstinctual, but really close to
instinctual.
Yeah, like right there, early onorigin stuff, for sure.
SPEAKER_04 (40:35):
Well, you talk a lot about that the cravings is
signals.
And I know you did a beautifulexperience around what are you
hungry for over this past yearin the Denver Nova.
And it goes back to that.
beyond food, like requestyourself and listen to these
desires, but it's not just food.
Can you speak to how you teach?
What are you hungry for?
I
SPEAKER_05 (40:54):
love that.
Yes.
Thank you.
I love that perspective.
Well, the first thing I want tosay is I believe we have like
body hunger.
We have mind hunger.
We have heart hunger and we havesoul hunger.
And what I think we often do iswe'll be like, oh, I'm having
soul hunger, but I don't knowthat.
So I'm going to try to feedmyself with food.
(41:17):
Yeah.
Me.
And it's like, okay, so that'sinteresting, right?
Because when we're having soulhunger, like popcorn isn't
probably going to solve it.
But it's not like there'sanything wrong with popcorn.
It's just like in the wrongcategory.
It helps a
SPEAKER_04 (41:34):
little bit.
Especially the popcorn.
That's like the churro popcornat
SPEAKER_05 (41:39):
Alamo Draft House.
If you've
SPEAKER_04 (41:41):
had that, you haven't lived.
Oh,
SPEAKER_05 (41:43):
I've never.
That sounds yummy.
I'm like a popcorn person.
So I totally get that.
I think That does solve soulhunger, I would argue.
But, you know, I think if we canidentify sometimes what kind of
hunger we're having, we can thenaddress it.
Maybe we don't necessarily noteat, but we can still think, OK,
well, is my body hungry?
(42:04):
First of all, like we can gointo the physical sensations
again and see, am I hungry andwhat am I hungry for?
That's physical and that'sphysically going to nourish me.
But then if we're like, OK,well, no, I'm not actually
hungry.
but why am I wanting food?
It's like, okay, well, what aremy thoughts?
And if I was to feed my mind,what would my mind want?
(42:25):
And that might be like, I knowfor me, I've seen myself go from
like being in a fairly negativemindset to feeding my mind a
really inspiring podcast orsomething like that, where I can
watch my energy and my mindshift really quick.
I'm like, oh, wow, putting onsome really inspirational, fun
playlist that really gives youenergy that can really shift
(42:47):
your mindset.
Heart hunger, I think, is sointeresting.
Like sometimes heart hunger canbe something that's reminiscent
of someone.
Like there's a recipe in my bookof my granny.
That's what we used to call her.
She used to make these gingersparkle cookies every Christmas.
And a few years ago, I was allof a sudden like around the
(43:09):
holidays, I was like, I wantthose.
Like I want the scent of theginger and I want this
experience of her.
And she's given me so much of mystrength I feel like has come
from her and anyway so I got herrecipe from my mom and I
revamped it with a few thingsbecause you know of course it
was like white flour and whitesugar and all of that and I just
(43:29):
changed a few things to make itwork better for me but I still
had the smell and the experienceof cooking it and it really was
reminiscent but then of courseheart hunger can also be like
when we're feeling a heavyemotion and we don't know what
to do about it and so we dosometimes tend to turn to food
and there's nothing wrong withthat but then there's also like
(43:52):
what else can we do to helpemotion move through what are
the tools for our emotionalwell-being and sometimes food's
included because it can benourishing for that but i think
it just cannot we talked aboutthis at the beginning like get
out of whack and then soulhunger is you guys are the
perfect people to talk to aboutthat living from a soulful place
(44:15):
and using it as a north star andwhat we say yes to what we say
no to and how we show up for ourlives and our work and our
purpose and all those layerswhen we are feeling like really
soul satiated it's not reallyrelated to food like it's
related to feeling like we'reliving our purpose or we're
contributing to society or we'rehelping our neighbor or we're
(44:40):
giving back in some way and thatis so fulfilling I remember
going through a really hard timeand probably about 12 years ago,
a really big heartbreak.
And my best friend had justgiven birth and she was going
through a really roughpostpartum.
We were both crying all thetime.
And I would just go over to herhouse and we would push the
stroller around the neighborhoodor I would carry the baby for
(45:03):
her.
And it would shift my entireexperience.
I was like, oh, wow, I'm goingto come over here all the time.
Like when I'm in service, I feelbetter.
And it became like this remedyfor my own experience that I was
going through and I thinksometimes we forget that these
(45:24):
layers of being soulful andthese layers of enchantment and
devotion and giving back that'sreally what our souls are hungry
for and sometimes that mightinclude a soulful meal that's
fine but there's more to it thanyou know chips ahoy when we're
having soul hunger right you'rejust you're actually just wrong
(45:47):
It can be included.
It can be included.
(46:17):
Andrea Crowder, you know, shereally offered this in one of
her teachings recently, and it'sbeen really helpful for me.
And that is often when we'relooking for pleasure, we're
thinking of two of the threelayers of the experience, the
imagining of eating the food orthe doing of the thing.
First of all, I'm going toimagine the thing I'm craving.
Oh, I'm going to make thisdelicious meal.
(46:38):
I'm going to like add this toit.
I'm going to add that to it.
What should we have for dinner?
I can't wait to have it.
Maybe we'll have a side of this,a side of that.
It starts to become anincredible experience of
imagining, right?
We love that.
Our brains love that.
And then the experience of doingthe thing or eating the food.
We go get the ingredients and wemake the food and it's like the
smells and everything is thisincredible experience.
(47:00):
And we sit down and we have thesensory experience of the food,
hopefully with either abeautiful time to ourselves or
connection with others, whathave you.
But what we're not usuallyincluding, which I think can be
so helpful is the reminiscing ofthe doing of the thing.
So this particular way oflooking at it includes how we're
going to feel after.
(47:20):
If the reminiscing of thatexperience is shame, guilt,
self-loathing, blame, I don'tknow, for me it takes away from
the experience.
So as we're imagining what we'regoing to do and as we're doing
it, can we just at leastconsider how we're going to feel
after and can we at leastconsider the reminiscing of the
(47:42):
pleasure?
It was just last weekend we hada family dinner with our kids
who now none of them live here,but they do love to come quite
often to our house for dinner.
And my partner and I each havetwo kids.
So there's four kids, plus someof them have girlfriends or
boyfriends or what have you.
So there was a lot of them here.
And, you know, we were going tobed that night and we were
talking.
We're like, that was such ayummy dinner.
(48:03):
That was so fun.
That was so sweet.
Our kids were all connecting.
And at one point they were allsitting alone and we were not
even in the room and they wereall having this funny
conversation and joking aroundwith each other, which As a
blended family, that feelsreally monumental.
And we were just like, wow, thefood was so delicious and that
turned out so well and the kidsloved it.
(48:25):
And that's the juice, right?
The reminiscing.
But I think when we get intothese really challenging
patterns where we feel likewe're in prison with food and
we're not able to do thatbecause every time we eat and
we're reaching for these foodsthat we're going to have a story
about later, we're going to havea meaning about later and we're
going to beat ourselves up fordays.
(48:46):
It just diminishes the pleasureand it's unfortunate.
And I don't think that there's afood that we should do that
with.
I'm not saying that there's goodfood and bad food.
I'm saying we make up the storyabout it person by person.
There's people who lovechocolate and there's people who
feel guilty about eatingchocolate.
And there's people who feel goodabout all of it and can work
with it meal by meal.
(49:09):
So that has really been abeautiful way of thinking about
it for me.
And it's been really helping myclients as well so that the
whole experience is pleasurable.
I
SPEAKER_04 (49:21):
love this.
Well, I know we're needing towrap up and so I would love for
you to just share because I knowwe would love to dig into this
more and I'm sure everybodylistening would as well.
So can you share about your bookand where they can get that and
anything else exciting that iscoming up for people to really
plug into your magic?
SPEAKER_05 (49:39):
Yeah.
Well, my book is Food andFreedom.
Discover your personal recipe,which is all about your way,
your personal recipe to eatthink and live well.
It's available everywhere.
It's definitely on Amazon, butsome of the smaller vendors and
that sort of thing are availableon my website.
And yeah, my work, I mean,there's always so much going on
with my work, but I work withpeople privately.
(50:00):
I have some really great onlineprograms.
I have one that's kind of mybiochemical blood sugar reset
called Consciously Keto.
That's a really great way toreset your biomarkers and get
your blood sugar rock solid.
And then I lead women's retreatslocally and internationally And
I also have Colorado retreats acouple times a year.
And Costa Rica 2026 is openingfor registration.
(50:23):
And that one sells out reallyquick.
I mean, I just love working withpeople in any way.
So whatever speaks to you.
SPEAKER_03 (50:29):
Can I ask one final question to close us out?
Because you've mentioned purposea lot and living on mission.
And I'm curious what it feelslike for you to live in purpose.
SPEAKER_05 (50:41):
I love that.
That's a great question.
I've been really sitting withthat a lot lately, actually.
And I feel like for me, it feelslike aliveness.
It's energizing.
And there's been things that Ithought I wanted to do lately
that have not felt like that.
And I've given myself permissionto not do them because I don't
(51:01):
want to show up to my work or tomy life feeling frumpy around
what I'm doing.
Like it just doesn't seem to beuseful.
So for me, when I feel energizedin my body, when I feel alive in
my body, when I feel powerful,in my body, when I feel
inspiration in my body,creativity in my body, then I'm
(51:22):
a yes.
And otherwise, I'm kind of a no.
I love that you're bringing itall back to the body.
SPEAKER_03 (51:28):
I love that.
SPEAKER_05 (51:29):
Thank you.
I didn't mean to, but that waskind of fun.
SPEAKER_03 (51:32):
Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
That really meant a lot.
SPEAKER_05 (51:37):
It's so great to be with you guys.
I
SPEAKER_03 (51:39):
know.
SPEAKER_05 (51:40):
Let's just continue.
Should we go out to lunch?
Just kidding.
I know.
Well, it's so fun to be with youboth.
Thank you so much for having me.
Such a pleasure.
SPEAKER_03 (51:48):
Thank you.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (00:02):
To even question what you've been told is true is
incredibly courageous.
It doesn't always feel likecourage what looks like courage
to other people.
For me, it feels like survival.
This is our personal medicine.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion,
by integrity, then I really dothink that I know who I am.
SPEAKER_01 (00:21):
There is a peace that is indescribable when
you're being who you are andyou're living your purpose.
I'm not going to come to the endof my life and be like, I didn't
live the life I was meant tolive.
SPEAKER_03 (00:30):
Can I be so comfortable in the idea This is
the Inner
SPEAKER_04 (00:40):
Rebel Podcast.
We're so happy to have a dearfriend, Sue Van Rays, here on
the podcast today.
Sue and I just realized thattoday is our official one-year
anniversary of knowing oneanother.
(01:01):
And we were together last yearon the one-year anniversary of
Nova's birth.
And so there's a lot ofbeautiful one-year anniversaries
happening this week.
So welcome, Sue.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
I'm so excited to chat with bothof you.
It's going to be fun.
Sue is the author of Food andFreedom.
She's a functional nutritionist,food psychology specialist, and
psycho-spiritual practitioner.
(01:22):
She shares her body, mind,heart, and soul approach to make
peace with your plate and yourlife.
She has been featured innumerous publications, including
People Magazine, The ChopraCenter, The Sacred Science,
Lululemon, Natural SolutionsMagazine, Origin Magazine.
Oh my gosh, Elephant Journal.
I don't know how to say this.
Next one.
Hanuman?
Hanuman?
(01:42):
Hanuman.
Oh, Hanuman.
Yes, Hanuman.
Sounds like a festival I mightneed to learn about.
SPEAKER_05 (01:48):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (01:49):
And Travel Magazine.
Welcome, Sue.
In addition to all of theincredible things that you have
on that list, I just have reallyloved getting to know you over
the last year, getting to knowyour heart and soul.
And we've developed such asacred friendship.
So it feels extra special to getto bring your voice on here with
Jess and I.
SPEAKER_05 (02:07):
Thank you so much.
It's so meaningful.
And it was so special to be withyou last night for the one year
anniversary of the Nova.
And I just feel like whatkindred spirits we are.
So and it's great to be with youtoo, Jess.
I'm so
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
excited.
excited to get to know you.
Welcome to the show.
And I sent Melissa a messagethis morning like I am so
excited to have thisconversation because I'm
realizing I think I've alwaysknown this, but it just feels
very present for me how deep myrelationship with food goes.
And I think that's probably truefor everyone, but it's really
present for me right now.
(02:41):
So I think this conversation isreally timely and I'm excited.
SPEAKER_05 (02:44):
Oh, that's so great.
I'm so glad that we can havethis conversation at a time that
really is meaningful to you.
Because, you know, sometimeswhen our stuff around food is
swirling around and we feel likewe're trying to make sense of it
all, it's helpful to
SPEAKER_03 (02:58):
lean in.
Yes, I agree.
I'm very curious because we askthis question to everyone.
Then we'll go deeper and deeperinto the layers of you and your
specialty.
But I'm curious what yourrelationship has been to your
inner
SPEAKER_05 (03:15):
rebel.
Thank you so much.
(03:50):
It's interesting because I was agymnast.
And so my competitive gymnasticsschedule had me missing dinner
four to five nights a week withmy family, which right there,
when I look back at like a young10 year old life, like that was
a big significant chunk of doingsomething totally different than
(04:10):
the rest of my family who washaving this little four person
dinner every night of the weekthat I was absent for.
And so I kind of feel like thisinner restlessness.
rebel really guided me throughfor so long early early on I
also left after college to go toCentral America with a backpack
in my best friend that was veryvery out of the box at the time
(04:34):
I remember it was a funnyconversation with my dad when I
told him I was going to go toGuatemala with a backpack after
college and he was like whywould you do that like he
definitely had no context forthat in my response was why
would you spend an entire daycleaning out the eaves troughs
(04:56):
so I was just like always wewere so different like his
priority was yard work and mywhatever I don't even know if I
called it a priority at the timemy adventurous spirit wanted
more and so I left to gotraveling for almost nine months
on you know I think it was likeunder$3,000 I then moved to the
(05:18):
US with Also, a very littleamount of money and no green
card because I was in Canada.
I lived in Canada.
And so I got here and I couldn'twork, but I was kind of like,
I'm going to figure this out.
So my first job was under thetable at the snow cone cart on
Pearl Street for six dollars and50 cents an hour.
(05:39):
I love this, you know, andeverything was like that for so
long.
Like I had two home births and Igot divorced.
So then I was single parenting.
I had a one year old and a fiveyear old when I got divorced.
That was out of the box.
That was very much having me tapinto my inner rebel.
I was in school at the time.
And when I finished school abouta year after my divorce, I
(05:59):
started my business as anentrepreneur, which was also
very edgy for someone as asingle mom.
I look back and I'm like, wow,that was brave because
entrepreneurship, as we know, isa little up and down with
finances and flow and clientsand all of that.
So I had part-time jobs on theside.
Sometimes to kind of help thingsmove along.
(06:21):
But I don't know.
There's just something in methat was different than where I
came from.
And it's been scary at times,but I also have felt that I had
no choice but to follow thatpart of me.
I just always had this innerknowing that I needed to listen
(06:41):
to.
I remember when my dad gave mean application form to work for
BC Hydro, which was the BritishColumbia the province I'm from,
which was the hydro company.
And I like threw it in thetrash.
I was like, what are you talkingabout?
Like, this is so not me to goand get a conventional job like
that.
And there's nothing wrong withthat job.
(07:03):
It's just that I knew for surethat wasn't for me way early on.
So it's just been an interestingjourney to kind of look back and
reflect on all of those layersand be like, I don't know who
the fuck I thought I was, but Iwas definitely doing some stuff
that was out of the box forforever.
And it was scary, but it wasalso
SPEAKER_04 (07:22):
rewarding.
SPEAKER_05 (07:49):
doing it on purpose.
I wasn't ever like, I should dothis and be cool or something.
Like I was following somethingthat it was happening in so many
different eras of my life that Idon't feel like I could have not
done those things.
Like I had no mentor around it.
I was just, I mean, maybe MaryLou Retton or Nadia Comaneci or
(08:12):
something, but nothing that wasgiving me that much freedom and
permission.
Like my mom, she was like, She'sthe sweetest thing in the world.
And she's very much a rulefollower.
Speaking of Virgos, we had thisconversation last night.
She's like, so by the book.
And I remember so many timesbeing like, actually, you don't
have to do it that way.
And she'd be like, you do haveto do it that way.
(08:33):
She's British, you know, soshe's British and a Virgo.
And she would just look at melike, who are you?
And how are you part of myreality?
I would kind of give her likeshockwaves at times doing things
that she thought were supposedto be from how you set the table
to the bigger things in life.
(08:54):
She just did everything verymethodically.
So I think it was just my soul'scalling because it's been there
since I can remember.
And I don't know if you guysknow the character from Kerry
Washington's character fromwhat's the show called?
Oh, Scandal?
Scandal.
Yeah.
Yes.
So you know how she's like a
SPEAKER_04 (09:12):
fixer?
Never get pop culture right.
That was a very big moment forme.
We just paused
SPEAKER_05 (09:18):
and acknowledged.
Good for you because I don'teither.
Anyway, I just feel like I'vebeen channeling her since I've
watched the show.
But even before that, like I'mjust like, yeah, we'll figure it
out.
We'll figure it out.
We'll fix it.
We're going to make it work.
We're going to do what we needto do.
We're going to just keep puttingone foot in front of the other.
And when I started watching thatshow years ago, I was like, oh,
yeah, OK, she's my hero rightnow.
I think it just goes back intowho we
SPEAKER_03 (09:38):
are.
SPEAKER_05 (09:39):
Well,
SPEAKER_03 (09:40):
I find it really fascinating learning this about
you that so much of your workcenters around the connection
between food and freedom,because freedom is so clearly an
essential value of yours.
So I'd like to weave in the foodaspect then and hear a little
bit about your own relationshipto that and your journey with
food that led you into the workyou now do.
SPEAKER_05 (10:01):
Yeah, thank you for that.
So alongside all of thosedifferent timeframes going all
the way back to my childhood, Ihad undiagnosed hypoglycemia
that was really severe.
And I was always crashing, likeblood sugar crashing and feeling
like my energy would plummet andI would be insatiable, just like
(10:22):
ravenous all the time.
And a couple things came out ofthat.
One is that was also notladylike, according to my
British mother, and how you'resupposed to be, right?
That was during the late 70s andearly 80s.
So there was like the wholefat-free, eat light kind of
movement happening.
And there was stigma around whatwomen should eat.
(10:45):
We should eat in a way thatlooks sort of like the word my
mom would use is dainty.
That's kind of a British word.
Oh my gosh.
I'm the opposite of dainty.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And so I think you're supposedto eat like very small salads
with like a little something ontop and just kind of like chew
your iceberg lettuce 700 timesbefore you swallow.
(11:07):
Yeah, exactly.
And then I coupled that withbeing a gymnast.
And so I had a huge energyoutput and I was underweight a
lot as a kid.
I had to go to doctor's visitsfor being underweight, not
because I was restricting, butbecause I I was just not getting
enough food and so it was reallyinteresting like I was
underweight but then everyone inmy family kind of was like
you're like the human who'salways hungry in our family in a
(11:28):
way it was like the family jokebut then at the same time they
would be like you need to stopyou're making a scene you know
if I was at the snack table atlike a barbecue or something
because I was just trying tofind some way to satiate myself
so that really led me down aroad of wanting to understand my
body's biochemistry around foodand this really was going on all
(11:50):
through college until I actuallygot to Boulder, Colorado in my
early 20s.
And I made a new friend and sheworked as the assistant to a
really well-known naturopath andended up with an appointment
there.
And she drew me some blood sugarcharts after I think I told her
I had pancakes for breakfast orsomething.
And I mean, basically, I startedto understand how my body was
(12:14):
always spiking and crashing.
Oh, I also became a vegetarianwhen I moved to Boulder because
that was trend Very much thething that was the healthy thing
to do at the time.
And I loved health.
This was before I got mymaster's degree.
So anyways, this naturopath putme on a meat at every meal diet.
And it was a really dramatic 180from the vegetarian diet I'd
(12:36):
been eating.
But I swear to you, it was a dayor two and I started to feel
like myself.
By the time I got to her office,I was kind of like crawling in
like crying, like begging formercy because I was so depleted.
And I had a two-year-old who washigh energy and I was just like
done.
I was just fried and I couldn'thandle my life.
(12:57):
And so when I started eating inthis particular way, I honestly
felt like I went through thistransformation in just a couple
of days and my life startedfeeling manageable and I started
feeling more even and I couldparent better.
And anyways, I think it reallyimpacted my brain chemistry and
I started to really come back tohaving some hope.
And I was in the process ofdeciding what what I wanted to
(13:19):
get my master's degree in.
And I think that was a bigturning point for me, that I can
really see how food is likemedicine.
And I think it was like a yearlater when I enrolled in a
master's degree that was inholistic nutrition.
And then at the same time, I wasbusting myths that I'd grown up
with.
Like first, I was eating foodthat I was craving instead of
(13:42):
eating what I was taught Ishould eat.
I was also listening to my body,which I'd never done before.
I mean, gymnastics, we weretaught to override our bodies
like hardcore, right?
It was like really push throughfear, push through sadness, push
through tears, stop crying, pushthrough pain.
So being in a place likeBoulder, Colorado, where there
(14:03):
was a little bit more of anawareness and a spiritual
community and I found yoga and Istarted listening to my body, it
was like 180 degree game changerbecause then I had permission
and I wasn't the only one for Iwas like getting support from
others who were doing the samekind of thing.
(14:25):
And it just became such aintegral time to basically
rewire my whole way of doingthings.
And as I started deepening intomy private practice over time, I
just kept finding people orclients, mostly women who were
seeing me that were using foodto dim their light, if that
(14:46):
makes sense.
And whether that be binge eatingto cover up emotion or whether
that was just comfort eating tocover up emotion or whether that
was restricting or whether itwas over exercising or just
being dominated by this internaldialogue that was so judgmental
and self-aggressive.
(15:06):
I was like, this is not freedom.
Freedom is when we can take careof ourselves and build
resiliency around what's goingon in our lives.
And our eating can really besupportive of that.
But it It can also really bringus down if we don't know what
we're doing.
SPEAKER_03 (15:49):
Mm-hmm.
(16:19):
It becomes this kind of likeweird struggle and not something
that you can actually avoidbecause you have to eat it every
day.
It's not like you can go to AAand cut it out of your life.
You actually have to address itand address the feelings that
are coming up as a result ofdenying yourself the things that
aren't good for you or actuallylearning to listen to your body.
(16:40):
So I'm wondering if you canspeak to why food is such an
emotional thing for us and howdo we we address what is
actually going on underneathwhen we want to use food as
either a drug or a form ofcontrol or some of the
dysfunctional aspects of itbegin to show up.
(17:02):
I know this is a big subject,but...
SPEAKER_05 (17:04):
No, I love talking about this.
I really do.
It's so integral to myday-to-day work, for sure.
Well, the first thing I want tosay is food is emotional, and we
make decisions about food basedon how we feel every time we
open the fridge or sit down atthe table.
Like that is just human and itis okay and it is just how it
(17:25):
is.
What is problematic is not thatfood is emotional.
It is that when food gets out ofbalance coupled with our
emotions, right?
So when we take that to anextreme and we're using food to
numb or to manipulate the shapeof our bodies so we can feel
lovable or what have you, that'swhere it gets exacerbated.
(17:49):
And so if we look back, we seethat for centuries, people have
been using food as a way tocelebrate, as a way to find
pleasure, as a way to connectwith each other, as a way to
feel nourished.
I mean, we can all think of atime when food felt like an
internal hug, right?
Like where it's just like soyummy and it feels comforting.
(18:10):
Like I just made a pot of soupthe other day when it was
snowing.
And there's something about thatthat is just so comforting and
nourishing.
And that is, I think, perfectlynatural and perfectly normal but
obviously what we're dealingwith in our society and the
stress that we have day to dayand all the things we hold that
(18:31):
we're taking on as ourresponsibility we talked about
that a lot last night at thenova celebration like especially
women we're holding so much forso many people and it is heavy
lifting sometimes and it's soeasy to want to escape that
feeling of stress or thefeelings that are bubbling up
(18:55):
that are uncomfortable.
And so food has the ability toregulate our nervous systems
temporarily, right?
So it feels regulating, it feelsgrounding, it feels comforting,
but then the stressor that'sbubbling up isn't going to
generally go away.
It's going to just kind of beoff to the side until that
(19:17):
feeling of comfort passes And Ithink that there's a couple
things.
Sometimes I think we need tolook at like what we're taking
on and why we're holding so muchand how we can shift that
relationship to our externallives.
But then what's reallyinteresting to me is also what
is it that we're afraid offeeling and what does that
(19:40):
actually feel like?
is putting ourselves out thereand being out of our comfort
zone.
Like last night, I don't knowhow you were feeling, Melissa.
You're really good at holdingspace.
But I was like, okay, I did alittle thing and I can get a
little nervous.
I can start getting into myhead.
(20:03):
I can worry what other peoplethink.
I feel my inner critic get alittle louder.
And I noticed that that comeswith a sensation.
So there's a thought about it.
And then if I go into my body,there's this sensation.
It's a little bit of likeclenchy adrenaline you know
feeling something in my body itdoesn't hurt but it feels
(20:24):
uncomfortable but it is so easyfor us to be like get me out of
this sensation
SPEAKER_06 (20:30):
yeah
SPEAKER_05 (20:30):
get me out of this sensation because i don't want
to feel it so i'm going to dosomething whatever the thing is
for some people that's food forsome people it's alcohol for
some people it's just checkingout in other ways for some
people it's scrolling on theirphone but what's interesting is
if we can go into that sensationand sit there for even a minute
(20:52):
or 30 seconds and be like oh wowthis actually is just energy
moving in my body it's just thissensation that has these
different textures and differentqualities to it and I'm afraid
of it so I generally try toleave that and make it go away
as fast as possible that couldbe something happening at work
(21:16):
that could be somethinghappening with our kids that is
triggering us.
That could be a relationshipdynamic.
That could be standing in themirror in the morning and
getting dressed and not likinghow we look.
I mean, anything under the sunthat brings up a feeling,
disappointment's a big one thatpeople avoid.
And that can keep us feelingreally small, right?
(21:37):
Like we just don't want to putourselves out there because what
if we get disappointed?
And so then I'm like, okay,well, what's disappointment feel
like?
For me, it's a little bit like apit in my stomach.
I'd rather feel the joy of goingon a beautiful hike or having an
orgasm than I would the feelingof disappointment.
But you know, it's also notpainful.
It's better than breaking yourleg.
(21:58):
It's not like spraining yourankle even.
It's not even as bad as stubbingyour toe.
But it does feel uncomfortable.
And I think we tend to be like,this is happening.
Here's the story.
Here's the meaning I'm decidingto put on the thing.
And now my mind is making mysensation worse because they're
kind of like turning Mm-hmm.
(22:48):
don't have to check out asquickly or at all.
And I just want to say like,it's a practice, right?
So sitting with the sensationfor 30 seconds is a really good
place to start before you do thething that you do.
And then maybe a minute, andthen maybe you can get to 10
minutes, and maybe you can getto an hour, and maybe you can
get to full resolution overtime.
(23:10):
But it's interesting how much weavoid sensation.
That's what I think.
SPEAKER_04 (23:15):
I have so much.
There's so much in there.
Oh my gosh.
I want to bring it back tonervous system and food, but I'm
actually really present to thesensations we experience in
these expansive moments, whichyou talked about last night,
leading the circle that you didfor us.
And in this past year whereyou've really anchored into your
(23:35):
bigger mission, bringing yourbook to life and getting
incredibly visible in the lastyear since I've known you.
And, you know, a lot of peoplethat come on this show tend to
be those people people who getpretty visible at some point in
their career where they reallyanchor into this mission that's
been driving you your whole lifeand fucking go for it and I
(23:58):
would love for you to speak toyour experience of a how did you
know it was time to go big inyour mission and how did you
navigate what you were justspeaking to in your body in that
physical sensation that happensthe entire time as we're
expanding because like I wasgoing blind last night I don't
(24:18):
know I think I told you a littlebit.
Yeah, you were.
My body's new thing is to likeactually lose vision when I'm
holding a watch.
So that's the new thing that I'mexperiencing.
So I would love for you to speakto it because we're expanders
here and it's a lot to step intothat.
SPEAKER_05 (24:33):
Yeah.
Well, I want to say thateverything that you just spoke
about, about expanding, you arelooking at this very big
externalized zoom out, right?
Which is great.
Like it's so great to zoom out.
And it has been an incrediblyexpansive severe for me in like
a gazillion different ways butalso what's happening on a
(24:54):
day-to-day basis or what'shappening like appointment by
appointment or podcast this isliterally like I think it's in
the 40s like I've been on like40 something podcasts since my
book came out which is insanethere's a couple things I've
noticed like first of all I'mnot thinking about 40 podcasts
when I'm thinking about going ona podcast I'm thinking about I'm
(25:18):
gonna go on a podcast And I'mlike, okay, so that's like a
bite-sized chunk, right, ofdoing the things that I did to
promote my book.
So it was really like one thingat a time, first of all.
And also the timing of the bookcame partially because of all
the different layers that ittook to get a book deal.
And then when I actually did geta book deal, the timing was now
(25:41):
you're writing a book.
So there was like that.
It actually lined up really wellfor me because I got the book
deal at the end.
of August a couple of years ago.
And I had a school year to writethe book, which felt really like
natural in my rhythm.
I was like, okay, my kids werein college.
I'm like, okay, we're all goingto just have a school year
together.
(26:01):
And I'm going to write a bookand you guys are going to go to
college and it's going to bedone.
And both of my kids graduated.
One graduated community collegeand went on to CU Denver.
So he's still there.
But we all graduated at the sametime, me from the book and them
from both of their collegeprograms.
So that felt really good.
But I didn't really choose thattiming.
(26:22):
I mean, I'm sure my soul did orsomething, but it just happened.
And every single step of the waywas a bite-sized chunk.
And my brain does that reallywell.
I think it's like a Capricornthing too.
So I got the book deal and Istarted writing in September.
I had, I think, three chaptersalready written for the
(26:43):
proposal.
And it was like, oh, okay, checkthis out.
There's nine months and there'snine chapters.
So I'm like, oh, that's obvious.
Now I'm just going to write achapter a month.
And I think it gave me like onemonth at the end to have a month
of space before I had to turn itin and to kind of go over the
whole thing.
But basically it was like, oh,month by month.
Okay, so I'm going to write achapter a month.
(27:04):
That felt doable.
And then I looked at my scheduleand I was like, oh, I have two
days I'm not with clients.
I'm going to use those two daysas writing days.
And that was tight because Istill have other stuff I had to
do.
But I was like, no, I'm going toreally commit to these two days
every week to make my writingdays.
And I just sort of laid it outlike a map.
September, I'm going to writethis chapter.
October, I'm going to write thischapter.
(27:26):
And ironically, I was like, oh,check this out.
I'm going to be in Bali when mybook manuscript is due.
So I can either turn it inbefore, turn it in the day after
I get home while I have jet lag,or I could stay in Bali for a
few days and do one final readthrough and turn it in in this
place that's been like the mosthealing place in the lining up
(27:49):
little bit by little bit.
Same with the retreat thatMelissa and I met on.
I was on Instagram about a monthbefore that, and my friend Kate
Northrup was posting that therewas an opening on her retreat of
12 women.
I hadn't really been in touchwith Kate personally for years,
but we had known each other forover 20 years.
And I messaged her on this DMthat said, I don't know if I
(28:12):
make enough money to come onthis retreat because it was for
high earners, but I'minterested.
And then she She was likemessaging me back right away.
Totally.
I'll send you the information.
And I had always been like, oh,it'd be really great if Kate
would endorse my book.
This would be a great way toreconnect with her.
So I went on the retreat, senther the manuscript.
It's just things line up so wellwhen we're tuned into our
(28:34):
purpose.
This particular morning afterKate read the manuscript, I was
laying in bed.
It was six in the morning andshe's on the East Coast.
My phone lit up with a text.
I didn't really look at thephone because I was still kind
of half awake and not reallywanting to get up yet.
But I was like, I think I sawKate's name on my phone.
But I'm like, just don't get upyet.
Just wait a little while.
(28:55):
You can sleep a little longer.
And I had been thinking about,wouldn't it be amazing to get on
her podcast?
And I was laying in bed thinkingabout how I was going to pitch
the podcast that morning whenthe phone lit up with her
inviting me on the podcast.
You can't make this stuff up,right?
It happens so organically, Ithink, when we're really feeling
(29:17):
the channeling of whatever it iscoming through us that's
supposed to be our next thing.
But there were so many littlesteps that led up to it, and
they were all one thing at atime.
But I was so nervous for thatpodcast.
I mean, I flew to Miami.
I had to be on camera the wholetime.
It was her first full YouTubepodcast.
(29:39):
I didn't know that, thankfully,at the time.
I didn't know what to wear.
I hadn't done anything for mybook yet.
It I had to do a lot of innerstuff to get myself ready for
that whole experience.
But then I started getting somemomentum and getting warmed up.
And I just kept having torecalibrate my nervous system
(30:01):
through every single phase.
It was big work, but I knewthat.
I was like, I'm signing up forthis author experience.
I know it's going to be a hugeamount of growth in so many more
ways than writing the book.
And I knew that that would belike a way for me to have my own
inner transformation.
So it's been incredible,actually.
(30:23):
It's been really fun.
Yeah.
Does that answer your question?
SPEAKER_04 (30:28):
Yeah.
I mean, this is it's so funnybecause I know Jess is like
really wanting to dig into thefood.
And I'm like, I really want todig into the like expansive
entrepreneurial journey.
And I actually know you careabout both things, Jess, but I
can really feel myself like Iwant to go down this hole with
you for like the next six hours.
SPEAKER_05 (30:47):
It's fun to talk about.
There was There's no roadmap,but I just kept making a little
mini roadmap for every phasethat I could.
And then last winter, rightbefore the book was going into
launch period, I started to getreally stressed.
And I started to feel this like,it has to be so good.
And this launch has to be so topnotch.
And I started catching myselfand I'm like, you know what,
(31:09):
this is not freedom.
And this is not how I'm doingit.
And I stopped myself from goinginto this stress pattern, I
caught myself and I'm like, if Ii'm gonna do this i'm gonna make
it fucking fun that's what i'mgonna do that's freedom and so
every time there was anopportunity to do different
kinds of promotional stuff anddifferent kinds of expansion i
(31:31):
really tried to find the fun init and i really did find the fun
in it and it really was fun totalk to so many people just like
talking to you both today likethis is so enjoyable for me but
when we get in our head so muchyou know we can take away the
pleasure so i just had to keepreminding my I'm not going to
write the book about easing ourfood stress and then be stressed
(31:53):
when I'm launching it.
That just doesn't
SPEAKER_03 (32:09):
make any sense.
pieces.
And with that, and this is how Isee expansion, with that, your
nervous system, as you broughtup, Melissa, does acclimatize to
every phase that you're at inorder to build more capacity for
(32:30):
the next thing.
But also what I hear and whatyou just said is as you slow
down and allow that to happen,you can also then be a
co-creator in that expansion interms of being very mindful and
very intentional about whatyou're building.
If you're moving too fast, ifyou're not actually allowing
each stage to digest I love thatthese are all like
SPEAKER_05 (33:06):
food.
the world and then there's theinner freedom and it's a little
different a limitation onourselves that we've decided is
(33:27):
true based on whatever based onour childhood based on some
social construct that we'vetaken on and being able to see
where we have those limitationswhen things start to come up and
to see if we actually do reallybelieve them to be true because
(33:47):
the question like, is this true?
Has been a big question for mefor a long time.
And that comes from the work ofByron Katie.
I got really into her probablylike 15 years ago for a while.
But that one question that shetalks about a lot has really
impacted me because so manytimes when I'll have a thought
or a feeling about a limitationin myself, if I can catch it and
(34:09):
just say like, is it true?
And then her second question, isit really true?
Which is a nice second question.
That's her Yeah, it's good thatshe put that one in there
because I think sometimes ourfirst reaction is like, yeah, it
is.
And then the second time you'relike, well, maybe not.
Maybe it's not true.
Maybe there's differentpossibilities for us that we
(34:32):
don't even realize are there andwe limit ourselves so much.
I think finding that innerdialogue and finding those go-to
ways we limit ourselves are sohelpful.
SPEAKER_03 (34:42):
I think it's so important that you bring this
up.
When you were talking beforeabout making that statement,
separation in regards to food,in regards to, okay, I have a
sensation.
Can I be with the sensation andnot believe the story?
I'm reminded of my therapistsaid to me, one of my favorite
therapists said to me, feel it,don't believe it.
And I use that phrase a lot.
(35:04):
Feel it, don't believe it.
Allow yourself to be with thesensation, allow it to move
through you, but don't believethe story attached.
And then adding in thisdimension of what you're saying,
I think people really need tohear this.
I think they need to understandthat our minds operate through
story and narrative and that wevery rarely question that
narrative.
And so we assume the feelingmeans something and it means
(35:26):
something about us that we'retelling ourselves it means.
But this is sort of the nextlevel of that.
It's one thing to just feel itand separate the thought and
another thing to actually startquestioning whether the thought
has truth at all.
SPEAKER_05 (35:36):
Absolutely.
My first realization of thatcame from a T-shirt shop on
Pearl Street Mall.
There was a T-shirt that said...
Literally, there was thist-shirt and the only thing it
said was, don't believeeverything you think.
I was like, I don't know.
I was in my 20s.
I'm like, huh, well, that'sinteresting.
(35:57):
I just thought, of course, thatI would believe my thoughts for
the most part.
I hadn't really questioned them.
It kind of started this littlecascade of, hmm, what if my
thoughts aren't always true?
It's so powerful to be able tonotice those moments.
Something I wanted to say aboutsensation that's been really
coming up for me a lot lately,and I I've been studying rapid
(36:19):
resolution therapy.
And in rapid resolution therapy,we talk about how sensation is
our unconscious mind telling usto do something.
So if you were an animal in thewild and you were just having a
calm experience of eating grass,and then you had this sensation
(36:40):
of fear, most likely becausethere was a predator, you
wouldn't question the fear.
You would just run.
The fear would be telling you torun and you would be like one
minute grass one minute run youwouldn't be like oh I wish I was
still eating grass or oh maybeI'll eat some grass later you
would just be like I'm runningthat's it no story and what
(37:00):
happens is sometimes that's trueright like I've had moments
where my sensation has led me todo something to protect myself
or to keep myself safe or tofeel like I don't really feel
safe with this person orwhatever it is and then there's
other times where it's old stuffthat's not about running from
(37:23):
the predator because there's nopredator there's no need to run
but we are still with ourunresolved old stuff our primal
brain is telling us to run andso it gets confusing because
we're like run no eat grass norun no eat grass and we don't
understand that those unresolvedpain points wounds traumas
(37:47):
patterns what have you, aresometimes unresolved and
therefore happening on kind ofoverdrive.
And that can really be confusingfor people when they're trying
to navigate them, especiallywith their relationship to food,
because when we're constantlyhaving a stress response in our
nervous system, that's notbecause we're unsafe.
(38:10):
Literally, it's because of anunresolved thing.
Then it can kind of create thiscycle with food that's like,
okay, I'm going to eat the foodto comfort myself, but the
sensation is going to still bethere because it's been there
for 10 years or 15 years orhowever long.
And so it's about how can welearn to resolve what is driving
that sensation when there'snothing to be done?
SPEAKER_03 (38:33):
What makes this so tricky, I think, with food
specifically is that it'sprobably the first thing that
we're taught when we're veryyoung.
Even if you think aboutbreastfeeding, right?
You're crying and
SPEAKER_04 (38:44):
then
SPEAKER_03 (38:45):
you're fed.
It's such a source of soothingand nourishment and so there's
both this association of wellthis is the quick fix but then
there's all of these societallevels and also like family
cultural levels of shamingaround food and shaming our
SPEAKER_05 (39:01):
bodies totally it's so complicated especially for
women it's not not for men but Ithink it's just different for
women because you're right ourattachment style is
foundationally related to foodright which is really coming out
in the research more and morethat a lot of the studies around
(39:23):
disordered eating and attachmentstyle are so profound because
they're really seeing like somuch of how we attach is going
to be how we relate to food.
And so if you're an anxiousattacher, then you're probably
going to be feeling anxiousaround food on a subtle level or
maybe on a grand level.
(39:44):
And same with avoidant, like youcan feel avoidant around food.
Because of your attachmentstyle.
And so you really nailed it downto the real core ways in which
we were tended to as babies,that is foundational to our
relationship to food, ourrelationship to self, and then
of course, our relationship withhow we are with others in our
(40:05):
life.
So there's so many ways to lookat it.
And I think to just peel awaylittle layers at a time to see
how we can start to really buildself trust.
Now, And also to really buildself-compassion, because we also
just criticize ourself for someof these behaviors that are, I
(40:26):
wouldn't necessarily sayinstinctual, but really close to
instinctual.
Yeah, like right there, early onorigin stuff, for sure.
SPEAKER_04 (40:35):
Well, you talk a lot about that the cravings is
signals.
And I know you did a beautifulexperience around what are you
hungry for over this past yearin the Denver Nova.
And it goes back to that.
beyond food, like requestyourself and listen to these
desires, but it's not just food.
Can you speak to how you teach?
What are you hungry for?
I
SPEAKER_05 (40:54):
love that.
Yes.
Thank you.
I love that perspective.
Well, the first thing I want tosay is I believe we have like
body hunger.
We have mind hunger.
We have heart hunger and we havesoul hunger.
And what I think we often do iswe'll be like, oh, I'm having
soul hunger, but I don't knowthat.
So I'm going to try to feedmyself with food.
(41:17):
Yeah.
Me.
And it's like, okay, so that'sinteresting, right?
Because when we're having soulhunger, like popcorn isn't
probably going to solve it.
But it's not like there'sanything wrong with popcorn.
It's just like in the wrongcategory.
It helps a
SPEAKER_04 (41:34):
little bit.
Especially the popcorn.
That's like the churro popcornat
SPEAKER_05 (41:39):
Alamo Draft House.
If you've
SPEAKER_04 (41:41):
had that, you haven't lived.
Oh,
SPEAKER_05 (41:43):
I've never.
That sounds yummy.
I'm like a popcorn person.
So I totally get that.
I think That does solve soulhunger, I would argue.
But, you know, I think if we canidentify sometimes what kind of
hunger we're having, we can thenaddress it.
Maybe we don't necessarily noteat, but we can still think, OK,
well, is my body hungry?
(42:04):
First of all, like we can gointo the physical sensations
again and see, am I hungry andwhat am I hungry for?
That's physical and that'sphysically going to nourish me.
But then if we're like, OK,well, no, I'm not actually
hungry.
but why am I wanting food?
It's like, okay, well, what aremy thoughts?
And if I was to feed my mind,what would my mind want?
(42:25):
And that might be like, I knowfor me, I've seen myself go from
like being in a fairly negativemindset to feeding my mind a
really inspiring podcast orsomething like that, where I can
watch my energy and my mindshift really quick.
I'm like, oh, wow, putting onsome really inspirational, fun
playlist that really gives youenergy that can really shift
(42:47):
your mindset.
Heart hunger, I think, is sointeresting.
Like sometimes heart hunger canbe something that's reminiscent
of someone.
Like there's a recipe in my bookof my granny.
That's what we used to call her.
She used to make these gingersparkle cookies every Christmas.
And a few years ago, I was allof a sudden like around the
(43:09):
holidays, I was like, I wantthose.
Like I want the scent of theginger and I want this
experience of her.
And she's given me so much of mystrength I feel like has come
from her and anyway so I got herrecipe from my mom and I
revamped it with a few thingsbecause you know of course it
was like white flour and whitesugar and all of that and I just
(43:29):
changed a few things to make itwork better for me but I still
had the smell and the experienceof cooking it and it really was
reminiscent but then of courseheart hunger can also be like
when we're feeling a heavyemotion and we don't know what
to do about it and so we dosometimes tend to turn to food
and there's nothing wrong withthat but then there's also like
(43:52):
what else can we do to helpemotion move through what are
the tools for our emotionalwell-being and sometimes food's
included because it can benourishing for that but i think
it just cannot we talked aboutthis at the beginning like get
out of whack and then soulhunger is you guys are the
perfect people to talk to aboutthat living from a soulful place
(44:15):
and using it as a north star andwhat we say yes to what we say
no to and how we show up for ourlives and our work and our
purpose and all those layerswhen we are feeling like really
soul satiated it's not reallyrelated to food like it's
related to feeling like we'reliving our purpose or we're
contributing to society or we'rehelping our neighbor or we're
(44:40):
giving back in some way and thatis so fulfilling I remember
going through a really hard timeand probably about 12 years ago,
a really big heartbreak.
And my best friend had justgiven birth and she was going
through a really roughpostpartum.
We were both crying all thetime.
And I would just go over to herhouse and we would push the
stroller around the neighborhoodor I would carry the baby for
(45:03):
her.
And it would shift my entireexperience.
I was like, oh, wow, I'm goingto come over here all the time.
Like when I'm in service, I feelbetter.
And it became like this remedyfor my own experience that I was
going through and I thinksometimes we forget that these
(45:24):
layers of being soulful andthese layers of enchantment and
devotion and giving back that'sreally what our souls are hungry
for and sometimes that mightinclude a soulful meal that's
fine but there's more to it thanyou know chips ahoy when we're
having soul hunger right you'rejust you're actually just wrong
(45:47):
It can be included.
It can be included.
(46:17):
Andrea Crowder, you know, shereally offered this in one of
her teachings recently, and it'sbeen really helpful for me.
And that is often when we'relooking for pleasure, we're
thinking of two of the threelayers of the experience, the
imagining of eating the food orthe doing of the thing.
First of all, I'm going toimagine the thing I'm craving.
Oh, I'm going to make thisdelicious meal.
(46:38):
I'm going to like add this toit.
I'm going to add that to it.
What should we have for dinner?
I can't wait to have it.
Maybe we'll have a side of this,a side of that.
It starts to become anincredible experience of
imagining, right?
We love that.
Our brains love that.
And then the experience of doingthe thing or eating the food.
We go get the ingredients and wemake the food and it's like the
smells and everything is thisincredible experience.
(47:00):
And we sit down and we have thesensory experience of the food,
hopefully with either abeautiful time to ourselves or
connection with others, whathave you.
But what we're not usuallyincluding, which I think can be
so helpful is the reminiscing ofthe doing of the thing.
So this particular way oflooking at it includes how we're
going to feel after.
(47:20):
If the reminiscing of thatexperience is shame, guilt,
self-loathing, blame, I don'tknow, for me it takes away from
the experience.
So as we're imagining what we'regoing to do and as we're doing
it, can we just at leastconsider how we're going to feel
after and can we at leastconsider the reminiscing of the
(47:42):
pleasure?
It was just last weekend we hada family dinner with our kids
who now none of them live here,but they do love to come quite
often to our house for dinner.
And my partner and I each havetwo kids.
So there's four kids, plus someof them have girlfriends or
boyfriends or what have you.
So there was a lot of them here.
And, you know, we were going tobed that night and we were
talking.
We're like, that was such ayummy dinner.
(48:03):
That was so fun.
That was so sweet.
Our kids were all connecting.
And at one point they were allsitting alone and we were not
even in the room and they wereall having this funny
conversation and joking aroundwith each other, which As a
blended family, that feelsreally monumental.
And we were just like, wow, thefood was so delicious and that
turned out so well and the kidsloved it.
(48:25):
And that's the juice, right?
The reminiscing.
But I think when we get intothese really challenging
patterns where we feel likewe're in prison with food and
we're not able to do thatbecause every time we eat and
we're reaching for these foodsthat we're going to have a story
about later, we're going to havea meaning about later and we're
going to beat ourselves up fordays.
(48:46):
It just diminishes the pleasureand it's unfortunate.
And I don't think that there's afood that we should do that
with.
I'm not saying that there's goodfood and bad food.
I'm saying we make up the storyabout it person by person.
There's people who lovechocolate and there's people who
feel guilty about eatingchocolate.
And there's people who feel goodabout all of it and can work
with it meal by meal.
(49:09):
So that has really been abeautiful way of thinking about
it for me.
And it's been really helping myclients as well so that the
whole experience is pleasurable.
I
SPEAKER_04 (49:21):
love this.
Well, I know we're needing towrap up and so I would love for
you to just share because I knowwe would love to dig into this
more and I'm sure everybodylistening would as well.
So can you share about your bookand where they can get that and
anything else exciting that iscoming up for people to really
plug into your magic?
SPEAKER_05 (49:39):
Yeah.
Well, my book is Food andFreedom.
Discover your personal recipe,which is all about your way,
your personal recipe to eatthink and live well.
It's available everywhere.
It's definitely on Amazon, butsome of the smaller vendors and
that sort of thing are availableon my website.
And yeah, my work, I mean,there's always so much going on
with my work, but I work withpeople privately.
(50:00):
I have some really great onlineprograms.
I have one that's kind of mybiochemical blood sugar reset
called Consciously Keto.
That's a really great way toreset your biomarkers and get
your blood sugar rock solid.
And then I lead women's retreatslocally and internationally And
I also have Colorado retreats acouple times a year.
And Costa Rica 2026 is openingfor registration.
(50:23):
And that one sells out reallyquick.
I mean, I just love working withpeople in any way.
So whatever speaks to you.
SPEAKER_03 (50:29):
Can I ask one final question to close us out?
Because you've mentioned purposea lot and living on mission.
And I'm curious what it feelslike for you to live in purpose.
SPEAKER_05 (50:41):
I love that.
That's a great question.
I've been really sitting withthat a lot lately, actually.
And I feel like for me, it feelslike aliveness.
It's energizing.
And there's been things that Ithought I wanted to do lately
that have not felt like that.
And I've given myself permissionto not do them because I don't
(51:01):
want to show up to my work or tomy life feeling frumpy around
what I'm doing.
Like it just doesn't seem to beuseful.
So for me, when I feel energizedin my body, when I feel alive in
my body, when I feel powerful,in my body, when I feel
inspiration in my body,creativity in my body, then I'm
(51:22):
a yes.
And otherwise, I'm kind of a no.
I love that you're bringing itall back to the body.
SPEAKER_03 (51:28):
I love that.
SPEAKER_05 (51:29):
Thank you.
I didn't mean to, but that waskind of fun.
SPEAKER_03 (51:32):
Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
That really meant a lot.
SPEAKER_05 (51:37):
It's so great to be with you guys.
I
SPEAKER_03 (51:39):
know.
SPEAKER_05 (51:40):
Let's just continue.
Should we go out to lunch?
Just kidding.
I know.
Well, it's so fun to be with youboth.
Thank you so much for having me.
Such a pleasure.
SPEAKER_03 (51:48):
Thank you.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom.
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