March 3, 2024 • 43 mins
Have you ever wondered if there's an innovator hidden within you or lurking in the cubicle next door? Join me, Jon Mode, along with leadership guru John Jaramillo, as we uncover strategies for recognizing and nurturing the innovation that exists in every level of a company. Our latest Innovate Everything podcast episode delves into the significance of curiosity and psychological safety in unearthing and growing the seeds of transformative ideas that can revolutionize businesses from the inside out.
Through engaging discussions, we reveal the parallels between the untamed curiosity of children and the innovative mindset we should foster within professional environments. We share firsthand accounts, including a transformative tale from a warehouse employee, showcasing the profound impact an inclusive idea-sharing culture can have on operational efficiency and business success. This episode isn't just about finding innovation; it's about creating the kind of workplace where innovation naturally flourishes, ensuring that the well of ideas never runs dry and the fear of burnout never looms.
Wrapping up, we delve into the human side of leadership, where John Jeremilo imparts critical insights on aligning company values with employee needs, especially in our post-pandemic world. Real-world anecdotes about the intention and impact of leadership decisions bring to life the essential traits of effective leaders—vulnerability, openness, and adaptability. Tune in and be inspired by a fresh perspective on leadership, one that cherishes every individual contribution and paves the way for a collaborative, innovative future.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the Innovate Everything
podcast.
I am your host, john Mowed, andwe are continuing our segment
with John Jeremilo talking aboutpreparing our organizations for
innovation.
Today we're talkingspecifically about finding
hidden innovators, puttingourselves and our organizations
in the right positions toidentify these people, bring
them forward, make them feelcomfortable sharing their
(00:22):
innovations, and kind of talkingabout some strategy of making
sure that we are facilitatingthe right mental headspace and
the right psychological safetyto get these people to want to
be participatory.
Quick refresher on JohnJeremilo.
John Jeremilo is the founderleadership performance coach and
consultant at CoachedOut LLC.
In that capacity, he helps hisclients throughout
(00:45):
organizational hierarchy breakthrough to their next level of
leadership, performance andeffectiveness Clients who
realize just how much more oftheir abilities, experience and
goals they can bring to thetable.
His professional experience inthe public, private, profit and
non-profit sectors allow him totransfer his lessons across
business industries,organizational structures and
(01:06):
leadership needs, while workingwith anyone from students to
seasoned executives.
In addition to coaching, heenjoys writing, both blogging
and co-authoring various books,and presenting and speaking on
leadership.
His signature talks includeDesign your Leadership Nine Ways
to Sharpen your LeadershipBrand and the Every Day and
Platinum Networking, designing aunique experience for others in
(01:29):
a world of disconnection.
He hosts two podcasts the BookLeads Impactful Books for Life
and Leadership, and the mindsettalks Life Beyond the Checkboxes
.
You can find him atcoachedoutcom I have personally
listened to almost weekly theBook Leads Impactful Books for
Life and Leadership, and I cantell you that John is an
(01:52):
incredible interviewer.
I'm actually excited to flipthis into making him the
interviewee because he hasgained so much knowledge from
some fantastic guests he's hadon that podcast that I just want
to unpack what he has gainedfrom all that and give him the
(02:13):
opportunity to speak, because Ilearned something new every
single time that he and I talk.
You have these people.
There are all around you, kindof like the Men in Black intro
all around you, everywhere youlook, there's these hidden
innovators.
You just don't know they'rethere.
How do we tune your lens?
(02:33):
How do we change the way thatyou view your organization Now
that we're prepared forinnovation?
How do we find those peoplearound us?
We talked about the people whoare, very specifically, I want
to come in, clock in, clock out,go home, but then you have
people like and I'll use theexample of Jim Carrey Jim Carrey
speaks about his father, whereJim Carrey's dad was an
(02:55):
incredible musician and a reallyfunny guy, but he was an
accountant because he was soscared of not providing for his
family.
Jim Carrey talks all the timeabout how his dad was such a
character that a large chunk ofthe characters that he plays in
his movies were basically hisillustration of how his dad was.
He always talks about what kindof person, what kind of
(03:18):
entertainer could my dad havebeen if he wasn't just so scared
to provide for his family thathe settled for accounting?
Could he have been me?
Could he have been bigger thanme?
And I look at that and I thinkof the people in your
organization right now that areout there on the work floor or
out there in the office rightnow.
That could be your CIO, couldbe your chief innovation officer
(03:44):
or your chief informationofficer, people who could be
such an integral part of yourorganization.
But because you hired them atan hourly position looking for a
certain skill set, right nowyou don't know they exist
because they factory workernumber 376, but this person has
all the ideas and they have somuch potential.
How do we unlock that?
(04:05):
So, john, welcome back.
Hey, man, thank you for havingme again.
So we're going to lean intoagain into your skills as a
leader, your skills in coachingleaders.
What role does innovation playin leadership?
How are leaders and innovationconnected?
Are they connected at all?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I think they're connected in terms of.
For me, let me speak to justleadership first.
For me, regardless of all theattributes you may see in
articles, journals, reports,studies, whatever it may be
about leadership and theattributes that make up
leadership for me, my money hasalways been on curiosity as the
foundation of leadership.
(04:46):
That's one thing I always write, I always speak and say listen,
what I'm providing here areoptions, they're considerations.
I want you to open up yourthinking.
This is one thing that I willnot budge on.
I will die on the CuriosityHill because curiosity plays
into all those other attributes.
All those other attributescan't happen without curiosity.
(05:07):
Do you think about some of theattributes of great leadership?
Empathy, vulnerability, vision,strategy, listing, emotional
intelligence all those stem outof curiosity.
So you have to have thatauthentic curiosity first.
Again, we talked in theprevious episode about not
making it seem like just acheckbox.
So in empathy, you have to becurious.
(05:28):
You have to be open to thepeople around you.
In vulnerability, you have tobe curious about okay, who can I
open up to and feel safe?
How can I get to a better spacefor myself to reflect who I am?
Vision you have to be curiousabout the future.
You have to be curious aboutthe skills and resources you
have now to reach to where youwant to get Strategy.
(05:50):
You have to be curious aboutall the resources you have
around you and what you can puttogether to execute that vision.
Listening curiosity obviouslythat's an obvious tie in
Emotional intelligence.
You have to be curious aboutthe welfare of other people
around you.
So for me, curiosity is thefoundation again of all things.
Leadership and in terms ofinnovation, how leadership and
(06:13):
innovation tie in, is thatcuriosity?
You have to be curious aboutthe people around you, the
resources you have, the industrythat you're in, the competitors
that are out there trying toeat your lunch.
You have to be open to what yousee and what you don't, and
that's where that curiositycomes in.
(06:34):
You have to be curious enoughto find your blind spots or work
with people or set anenvironment that's sound enough
to identify those blind spotsfor you.
So evolution is great, but Imean you want game changing,
momentum forward and you canonly do that if you really tap
into all the resources you have.
I mean, think about the pandemic.
(06:55):
Leaders are gonna wanna stay inthis pre-pandemic mode where
things are just transactional.
They don't wanna change withthe times.
But people are really lookingfor transformational work.
So are you really?
Are you curious enough to learnabout that and who you have at
your disposal?
Because, with the awarenessthat came out of the pandemic
(07:16):
and how people want thattransformational work, that ties
into their values, wherethey're making a difference, if
you're not listening and you'renot providing the environment
for the people that work for you, that you don't have to cater
to everybody 100%, but if you'renot listening, people will take
stock of that and, in a likelyscenario, they may go somewhere
else.
So again, leadership andinnovation.
(07:37):
The power behind both of thoseis that curiosity to know what
you have, curiosity may havekilled the cat, but it built the
leader.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So, yeah, exactly so, as a leader, you're having
these moments where you'recurious, you're open-minded,
which is naturally gonna lead toyou trying a lot of different
things.
So you're gonna go out andyou're gonna find opportunities
to foster that curiosity inothers, but you're also gonna
try something different becauseyou saw, maybe it worked
(08:06):
somewhere else.
We spoke a lot in our veryfirst episode about the way that
you view the world, that lensthat you're looking for the
world.
So in Henry Ford's case, it wasthis epic efficiency.
Everything he saw was anefficiency lens.
And so he goes out and he seesa meat packaging facility and,
instead of anything else, whathe sees is assembly lines I can
(08:27):
do this with cars and so thatcuriosity leads you to those
discoveries and now that you'vemade this discovery, you wanna
implement it.
Innovation's all about thepivot right, knowing when to
change course.
So how do you know when topivot?
How do you know why you shouldpivot?
(08:47):
How do you not associatepivoting with failure?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
As creative as we wanna get for innovation right,
it's about creativity.
You're either working in whatis known right now or you wanna
innovate towards the unknown.
As much as we wanna do that, asmuch as we wanna be creative,
use imagination, you gotta berealistic.
You gotta do your due diligence.
You don't wanna waste resourcesthat you can't afford to put
(09:14):
out there right.
And you also have to be humble.
You have to have that humilitywhere you don't think okay, I'm
the leader.
I've opened up this culture ofpsychological safety, of
feedback, of innovation.
Now, to prove it, I have to getthat win.
I have to get that win.
(09:35):
So, whatever we pick first,like I, have to make that work,
or else this is all for nothingand people will think that I'm a
sham and this whole process isworthless and doesn't add any
meaning or value to the work wedo.
You have to be humble enough tomodel your behavior and show
others.
Okay, listen, I tried this, Idid my best, I did my due
(09:58):
diligence.
It didn't work out.
Now I gotta try something new.
You have to get into that mode.
And in terms of associating withfailure, this is something
that's come up on my podcast alot.
It's come up in my life, it'scome up in my work with my
clients, where we have this ideaof failure where the failure
isn't that something didn't workout.
(10:18):
The failure is the perceptionwe have of it.
So if we slide into thatfailure mentality like I don't
see failure anymore, I justdon't, it doesn't mean I don't
have things work out at all, butI've just reframed it where
it's like okay, I wanted thisthing, it didn't work out, it's
a bummer, but it's not a failurebecause at the very least I
(10:39):
gave it a go.
So it's not to say that thingsdon't work out in my life or
things don't work out in thecareers of my clients, but it's
how you view it and I've learnedto see things as an experiment,
trial and error, the scientificmethod, scientific method.
They taught us in school.
For whatever experiment we hadin front of us, they gave us
(11:02):
water, they gave us measuringinstruments, they gave us a
cauldron, whatever it was.
They said this is thescientific method, this is what
we're gonna use it for, and youget that idea that it's only for
science.
But we have to get in thatmindset of constant evolution
and experimentation.
So, instead of seeing somethingas a failure as long as you did
your best, as long as you didyour due diligence, as long as
(11:24):
you listen to the people aroundyou and consider all opinions.
If something looks like it'snot gonna move forward and
everybody's in agreement andeverybody can make their case
that it's not gonna work out, behumble enough to say, okay,
this isn't gonna work out, butat the very least we tried.
So failure for me.
Just that concept of failure,that idea that if I didn't
(11:45):
achieve something I'm a failure,or it's a failure for me, it's
just the ultimate effort, and itkills dreams, it kills
motivation, it kills drive.
We have to get into that mindsetand I try to instill it with my
sons and my daughter when she'sold enough.
Same thing with her.
If something doesn't work out,it's not the end of the world,
it means that that particularthing, as long as you tried your
(12:06):
best, wasn't meant for you.
There's so much out there totry, why stop there?
So that's a mindset that wehave to instill in our kids,
that next generation, and it'sone that we have to learn
ourselves, or relearn ourselves,and be humble enough to know I
did my best, it didn't work out.
Now it's just time to regroup,pick up my tools again and try
(12:29):
something new with those lessonsthat I learned in that first go
.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, and I love that you tied in the kids to that,
because I know you personally.
I know you're an awesome father.
I view everything in my life.
When I talk to people aboutcuriosity and innovation and
trying new things, I alwaysrefer to my journey as a parent.
I've got a four-year-old and atwo-year-old and trying to
(12:56):
understand as a parent thatsometimes when they're making a
mess, it's curiosity, it'slearning.
There's so many opportunitieswhere they're grabbing each
crayon, snapping in half.
As a parent, you're looking atit and going I mean that's just
destructive and you probablyshouldn't do that.
But at the same time, thatcuriosity is the same way that
(13:16):
they realize that they can holdtwo little crayons together and
color two colors at once.
They probably never would havediscovered that unless.
So, a lot of times as a parent,as a leader of any kind, you
have to allow curiosity to getmessy without getting stressed
out.
That it's you know.
Or as a business owner,sometimes that curiosity can get
(13:37):
expensive.
But if your focus and your goalis on letting it get messy,
letting it get expensive inmanner to create progress or to
learn something new, it's okayto let that happen.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah, this conversation about our kids
reminds me of a presentation Igave years ago I forget the
exact title, but it wasessentially, you know, my
greatest leadership coach 10lessons that I learned from my
toddler, my oldest at the time,who was like three or four, and
it is about and I've talkedabout this on the podcast with
guests that have all been aboutthe wonder of childhood, the awe
(14:17):
of childhood, tapping into ourchildhood, our inner child, to
look for the wonder of life, tolook for the imagination of life
, to step away from the scriptof life, the stuff that we're
indoctrinated with, and goingback to that wonder.
And again, so many things standout, but the one of them is
I've beaten this dead horseplenty curiosity.
(14:39):
Obviously, if you have kids, ifyou've seen kids, you know that
they're just curious abouteverything.
That's my number one lesson inthat presentation.
But just the learning, and I'vetalked about how therapeutic it
is just to sit there and watchthe kids play.
The questions that they ask,the discoveries that they make.
They make you look at the worldin a new way, things you didn't
(15:00):
consider before.
Their minds they say whatevercomes to mind.
They have that psychologicalsafety when it comes to just
kind of asking questions.
They trigger like new, likesome of the best conversations
I've had with my kids, becausemost times they're just
unfiltered, they're curious,they're learning, they help me
see things in a new way, andthese are all lessons that we
(15:22):
can learn as leaders, from thepeople around them by allowing
that conversation to flow.
So we all have to have thatconfidence to speak up with the
things that we see.
So there's a responsibility onall sides as a leader, being
open and setting the stage forthose that are being led and
(15:42):
those that are being led.
If you get that permission,it's important to kind of speak
your mind, to share what you'rethinking, how you're viewing it,
because everybody has a uniquevoice.
No one is going to see thingsthe way that you do.
Nobody has the exact mix ofexperiences education, work,
traumas, successes, things thatdidn't work out, aka failures so
(16:06):
everybody has something tocontribute.
So again, that wonder that akid has of experimenting with
the life and the world aroundthem.
It's just, it's amazing to seebefore school indoctrinates it
out of them and they startthinking about failure.
And you didn't complete this.
So your class is going aheadwithout you.
(16:27):
So tap into that wonder of achild.
Watch a kid and just see whatthey get from just the simple
things of life.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, absolutely and okay.
So we're tapping into thewonder of life and we've just
covered, obviously, that lifeteaches you that failure is
painful and that failure isstressful, and so you're trying
to change your organization.
As a leader, how do youmitigate that stress on your
(16:56):
team so that your team doesn'tfeel burned out by this constant
change around them?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, and I think I mentioned in the previous
episode where I see peoplecoming out of school, coming out
of jobs, and the ability toskill, the resources that they
have is like at 100% of who theyare, and then the next job
description is kind of like wejust need kind of these things
right here and it doesn't happento you, holy, like it only taps
into 60% of what you canproduce.
So it's important to reallyunderstand what somebody can
(17:29):
bring to the table.
You've seen various examples ofthat, john, I'm sure I mean you
know, give me an example thatyou've seen.
We've seen them all around us.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Give me an example that you've seen, if you could
come into this warehouse and I'mjust monitoring the warehouse
to maybe design a differentlayout, maybe it's to generate
some efficiency in how they pickand pack.
But you're in this warehouseand you're watching and you see
this employee and, in thisparticular case, this guy.
All he did it was the simplestthing in the world and all he
(18:01):
did was when he went into thecold storage room he had cut out
this cooler.
He just had a regular big gluecooler.
He took the top off of it andwhen he'd picked the stuff in
the cold storage and he'd put itin that cooler and he would do
the rest of his picking fromthere, everybody else is taking
(18:22):
their cooler items dead.
Last we started to unpack why hedid that and he basically said
the efficiency of where thecooler room is is so far away
from everything else.
If you're going to do that last, you get stuck in this long
line of people trying to getback to their stations and
they're coming out from the endof the aisles and they're
(18:43):
picking other things he's like.
So it takes me so long to getback to my station.
If I pick the cooler itemsfirst, I can end right by my
station.
What he says is, and the itemsin the cooler are actually
colder by the time they're done.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
That's an amazing story because people will work
in a direction that allows themto share their ideas.
But in the end, they want let'snot lie about what innovation
can be, aside from a masterproduct or a master service
that's out there most of thetime.
Innovation, these small littleinnovative minds, like you just
said most of it is to make theirjob not easier but more
(19:24):
efficient.
People see the ways that existin their surroundings and they
want to eliminate those.
They'll do those at their, forinstance, their own station,
their own desk.
You want to extrapolate that.
So where I was going with thatthe whole comparison of if
somebody's full amount of skillsor full detail of skills,
versus what a job asks for, theyhave so much more to give.
(19:48):
If you open up the door wherethey can share more of that,
they will Like.
The ones that want to will.
Hopefully, the ones that don'tfeel comfortable will see that
modeled in their coworkers andstep up with their own ideas
Once they see okay, this one, hetook one for the team.
I see that he shared his ideas,he's given feedback and he's
(20:09):
still here.
Nothing bad's gonna happen.
This really is authentic.
The leaders really do want toknow what's going on.
I think, opening that up butnot making it constant.
You don't want to burn them outby asking over and over again.
You just want to create thatculture, you want to foster that
culture.
Where should something come upin their mind?
(20:30):
Much like the cooler idea thatyou saw that that gentleman
would make that suggestion toothers or that somebody in his
group would say, hey, that's agreat idea.
Hey, bosses, leaders, I sawwhat's his phase do this.
I think it's a great idea thatthey feel open enough that they
can share that, that they canmodel new behaviors.
So I think a lot of it.
If you give them permission, alot of it is modeled, a lot of
(20:53):
it comes up naturally.
So you don't want to burn themout by asking them every day
what's a new idea?
What's a new idea?
But at least open up thatculture where they can act
naturally, share ideas naturallyand then go from there, tap it
so that it comes from themnaturally, instead of saying
this is a culture of innovationover and over and like hammering
it in every day.
(21:14):
Just set that tone, followthrough with your words here and
there, check in with them, butallow that to bubble up, and
that's a great example that youjust saw.
I mean, think about how muchtime, how much energy that saves
.
Should other people follow thatgentleman's example about
getting those cold items firstand walking back towards a
(21:34):
station?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
And that's the thing too right.
It is one of the reasons that Imade note of that guy.
Not only is it because he hadthis cooler right he's the only
one with a cooler on his littletrolley walking around but once
you start asking those questionsof why you did that, you
realize that when it comes toefficiency of process like
regardless of what he calls itor how he identifies it, that
(22:00):
guy gets it.
You know, let's call him coolerguy, because I don't want to
put this actual name out there,but let's say cooler guy, right?
How do you find these hiddeninnovators in your organization?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Again, it's about modeling the behavior you want.
It's about walking that walk.
Not making it about check boxes, not making it about solely a
policy, but about demonstratingwhat that looks like.
Modeling it with your if you'rea leader at the top, modeling
it with your executive team.
Modeling it using certainlanguage and emails, walking
(22:35):
around, checking in with people,learning people's names, like
creating that culture ofconnection and openness.
As you do that, you can workinto learning more about people,
asking questions about people,and you create that ripple
effect where, even if you're atthe top of an organization
(22:56):
that's 50,000 people the peopleimmediately below you in the
hierarchy they see that and theypractice those steps, those
actions, those attributes andit's a ripple effect from the
top.
And once you see that rippleeffect go out, it doesn't mean
you stop doing what you're doing.
It's constant reassurance andreinforcement that this is the
way that we want to do things.
(23:17):
So you can set up policieswhere you have a suggestion box.
Maybe they're anonymous tips,but you can also just foster
that psychological safety wherepeople just they see it, they
see the attribute acted out,they emulate it, they see the
benefits, that next layer ofpeople sees it, and so on and so
(23:39):
forth, and they'll get to thepoint where, because they're in
that culture, they'll ask morequestions of each other, they'll
make more suggestions to eachother, they'll praise each other
, acknowledge each other, andthe more you do that, the more
you'll reap, because, again,that culture is just fostering
growth and development andawareness.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
One of the things that I've always done, since I
mean since my four year old was,was one.
I tell her all the time likeyou know, you've got this,
you've got this big brain andI'll, you know she'll, she'll
get frustrated by something andI'll say, you know, I'll say,
figure it out.
Like, just think about it andfigure it out.
And maybe six, eight months agomy wife's riding in the car
(24:21):
with her and she droppedsomething and my wife was like,
oh well, we'll have to wait tillwe get home.
And she and my wife comes homeand goes, she looks me straight
in the face and says, mommy,figure it out.
I don't know where she got thatfrom.
And I was like, I think, sayingthat since she was a kid,
because I want to foster thisenvironment where she solves
problems, she learns how tothink, not what to think.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Exactly.
That's exactly a great point,and I keep reinforcing and
bringing up the kids onlybecause as long as I've been a
leadership coach, I've known orlearned along the way, but
definitely know now that thelessons of leadership are the
same, no matter if you're a twoyear old, a four year old or a
60 year old executive orsomebody in retirement.
(25:05):
The lessons are exactly thesame.
The verbiage change changes,the vernacular changes, the
industry jargon changes isdifferent from one person to the
next, but the lessons areexactly the same.
That's why that presentation,that 10 lessons from my toddler,
my ultimate leadership coach,or whatever I titled it, that's
why that was relevant toseasoned executives that I was
(25:28):
sharing that with, because thelessons are exactly the same,
especially about curiosity.
And a few more points that Iwant to make about finding those
hidden innovators in yourorganization is you need to
convey to them that whateverthey suggest, whatever they put
forth, doesn't have to be earthshattering, and this is a human
(25:48):
lesson.
You want to make a differencein the world.
You don't have to wait for itto be perfect, it doesn't have
to be earth shattering, itdoesn't have to be seismic to
make a difference.
You can put forward just thatsmall gesture, that small
suggestion, and watch it ripplethrough with your team.
So they need to know that eventhe little stuff counts, the
(26:09):
little suggestions, that itdoesn't have to be this massive
movement because we lose out onso much, because a lot of people
hold back, because they don'tthink that what they think or
suggest would make that much ofa difference.
And then the other piece offinding those hidden innovators
is making it a part of yourculture so that that message
resonates.
So it's the internal andexternal communications, the
(26:32):
interviewing, the onboarding,the training, ongoing
development, that psychologicalsafety, that reiteration and
reinforcement of innovativethinking and psychological
safety, as I mentioned, has tobe in all those things the
language that you use ispowerful.
So emails you send out, certainlanguage will resonate, others
(26:54):
won't.
For all of these communications, interviewing, onboarding,
training, ongoing development,the wording that you use in each
of those reinforces that you'reall about innovative thinking,
finding innovative people,listening to innovative ideas
and feedback.
Set that culture, set thatlanguage.
(27:15):
Make it a part of everythingthat your business touches.
Not overkill, but there's a wayto write an email, there's a
way to write a communication.
There's a way to interviewsomebody, onboard somebody,
train somebody, develop somebody, where at every step, you
reinforce what that innovativeculture is all about.
So because you do that, peoplethat are hidden, that don't come
(27:38):
to the forefront right away,they'll see that you're serious
about it and they'll open up alittle more.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
And I think that's the biggest thing a lot of times
is we don't keep it simple.
We try and be, like you'resaying, too jargon-heavy too.
There's too much of thatgobbledygook just floating
around that no one has any ideawhat it all means and they feel
like they have to bring thismassive idea to the table or
it's not going to hold up to theemail I just sent about our
(28:03):
innovative culture.
That leads to.
The next point is so you've gotthese people who, let's say
they have great ideas, but whenthey see that email they're like
eh, I don't know what.
If your best innovators don'twant to be leaders, how do you
tap into their potential withoutforcing them to become
something that they're not?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I think you somehow, in your messaging, you convey
that it's not that somebody hasto step in and lead the effort.
You know that you're lookingfor ideas that people can
contribute as much as they want,that if they feel more
comfortable doing it anonymously, then that's the you have to
tap into.
(28:44):
Whatever it is that works foreach person that you want to
impact and invite conversationwith.
Not everybody wants to be aleader, formal leader, but
everybody can lead.
Everybody can set an example.
For me, example is the biggestthing.
Like, just because you don'thave a title doesn't mean that
I'm taking away from you bothgood and bad lessons of
(29:05):
leadership that I see in the wayyou carry yourself.
So even if somebody that's inthe organization doesn't want to
lead, clarify, listen, justbecause you have an idea doesn't
mean that you're the one thathas to lead it to success, that
you're the one that has to leadthe project.
You know we want to make itabout ideas.
Obviously you will play a part.
You know will want to refinethe idea and pick your brain,
(29:27):
but only as much as you want to.
You know this is part of notburning them out.
You can't make it, you can'tmandate it, you can't make them
feel comfortable.
You can't make themautomatically a team leader on
your innovation team becausethey came up with the idea.
You have to respect people.
You have to meet them wherethey are but in the process of
(29:48):
that open culture you reinforce,it's about your idea.
It's about you putting togetherwhat you want to see and
putting that forth, but you'renot going to drag somebody into
the limelight.
I think a big part ofleadership and that curiosity is
knowing and learning what eachperson, how far they want to go.
(30:09):
You know, for a lot of peoplegetting to the top of an
organization is a goal.
For other people it's just,yeah, a better paycheck.
But when it gets to a certainpoint, I don't want to be the
leader.
It doesn't mean they don't havethose ideas.
So respect that enough to knowthat even if somebody doesn't
want to step out in thespotlight doesn't mean that they
don't have a wealth ofknowledge that you can tap into.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
A lot of times what you'll see in an organization is
people say, well, I gave themthat idea and I didn't even get
a raise.
I got nothing for it.
Right, and how do you as anorganization?
So let's say, the idea wasgreat, but maybe it cost me
$80,000 to implement it.
And as a business owner, Idon't necessarily think I owe
(30:53):
you something monetary,necessarily.
But how do I help you feelrewarded by that without either
coming out of pocket financially?
Or should I come out of pocketfinancially, how do I make sure
that that employee feelsrewarded without feeling like I
took advantage of their idea?
Speaker 2 (31:10):
I think every organization should do what
financially works for them.
Obviously, bonuses are acompensation structure, award
structure.
It depends on what thecompany's values are.
I mean, can they go so far asto provide somebody with a bonus
or a gift card, whatever it maybe?
I think each company needs todo, or leader or group needs to
(31:32):
do, what it can.
Hopefully it gets to that pointin the conversation where the
organizations, the leaders, havemade it about the quality.
They've made it about theauthenticity, they've made it
about.
We're all in this together.
This is a change.
This is change that we can putemotion as a group, as a team,
(31:55):
as a company.
Hopefully it gets to that pointwhere people do recognize that
intrinsic reward that they getby contributing to something
bigger than themselves andeverybody's different.
Some people see the value ofhey, I contributed to this, hey,
I provided some feedback thatwent into a product or a service
(32:16):
and they tweaked it to meet mysuggestions.
That's amazing.
And other people they do wantto see extrinsic rewards.
I gave them this idea, theyrolled with it, I gave them
feedback, they used it, theytweaked it and now they're
making all this money and theydidn't give me anything.
I don't think that'snecessarily bad on the company.
(32:37):
I think it would be amazing formyself to get some kind of gift
card or bonus.
I'm not gonna lie, I think wewould all appreciate that.
If I don't get it, at the veryleast I'd want some
acknowledgement that I helped,or my name on a label or
whatever it might be.
Even if not, hey, they took myidea.
For me, that's rewarding enough.
(32:58):
I know that I gave everything Icould and it rolled out to
fruition.
People have to decide whichcompany they want to work for.
That's the capitalism ofworkforce thinking, if you can
call it that.
Like, if this is the kind ofcompany you want to be, you have
to decide how you want to shiftto keep certain people.
(33:19):
So you need to decide.
Okay, certain people areleaving because they're not
getting bonuses.
Okay, then we'll just takewhoever's coming to us.
Or, yeah, we want to keep thesepeople.
So, okay, they're saying thatthey provide feedback, they
provide suggestions.
They're not even getting, like,a gift card.
Okay, let's do that.
So, john, there's no answer toyour question.
(33:42):
It depends on where the companyis and it depends on the values
of the company, the values ofthe people that work there.
But I think intention is veryimportant.
If your company makes you feelas if you're being taken
advantage of, that's gonna feelvery differently from one that
gives you praise andacknowledgement.
So everybody in this situationhas to do what they can and what
(34:04):
they need for themselves.
To a certain extent you knowwhat I mean.
There has to be a balancebetween what I give to the
organization, what we can giveto employees, and what the
company has to keep for itselfor what the individual employee
needs for themselves.
So people will end up wherethey're supposed to be and
everybody has to kind of rethinkit every so often.
(34:25):
Okay, this thing is reallyworking.
We didn't have a bonus structureand plan, but you know we're
seeing some benefit.
Let's dole it out and providesome.
Let's give them some somethingfrom the table.
But it's gonna depend on thecompany, it's gonna depend on
the people.
I think the pandemic showedthat people will start moving
towards companies where theyfeel valued or their values are
(34:49):
aligned, and I think it's nodifferent in this kind of
situation.
If you want that extrinsic,you'll find a company that does
it.
If you want the extrinsic butit's not that serious, you'll
stick around.
So everybody has to take thepulse of what's good for the
organization as well as what'sgood for the employees and how
those two reconcile.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I think some of that leads back to being curious, and
I think if you're, if you arecurious enough to be in that
environment you have, if you'vecreated an environment of
psychological safety, theyshould just, in theory, just
tell you right, like, hey, thisis kind of what I, you know, now
that we've got this thingrolling, this is what I was kind
of hoping for, and if you havean environment that's open to it
(35:28):
.
And I wanna say, oh my gosh,entrepreneurs on Fire is a
podcast I listen to fairly oftenand there was an episode with a
.
There was a lady who owned amoving company and when the
recession hit in the early 2000s, she didn't have the money to
(35:49):
provide bonuses for the workersand she felt bad not giving
something.
So she went out and bought likethis, like bulk thing of beef
jerky and provided them beefjerky and a bunch of them quit,
and she was like I have no ideawhat happened.
And you know, when she went andsolicited feedback, they're
like we didn't.
(36:10):
We were looking forward to thebonus, yes, but we would rather
you have given us nothing, causeit felt insincere.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
And so there's that environment of psychological
safety, but there's thatcuriosity where you know she had
all the good intentions in theworld but she wasn't in tune to
whatever one was thinking andwanting, and I think that that,
to me, is the biggest piece ofthat.
If you are trying to find thesehidden innovators, keep that
environment open that allowsthem to feel like they are
(36:42):
valued enough to speak theirmind, regardless of what they
have to say, while obviouslymaintaining your leadership
status and, you know, garnishingthe respect that you deserve.
Obviously you don't want tocreate an environment where
everyone's just a little tooopen with how they feel about
everything.
But Absolutely.
At the same time.
If you've got that samepsychological safety to share
ideas, I imagine you couldgenerate the same thing to share
(37:05):
feedback.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
You know and everybody this is something I've
phrase, I've started using likesince the pandemic like you
gotta give a little grace toothers in their actions, right,
certain actions.
I'm not saying let yourself bewalked on.
And I've had Hesha Abrams on mypodcast, where she's a mediator
(37:28):
, world-renowned, works withglobal companies, the Googles,
the Twitters and all those andshe talked about how, even
though you have a certainintention, whatever the impact
is that that's the mostimportant piece.
But to me, I've learned overthe last couple of years.
For me and I respectfullydisagree, just because, based on
(37:50):
what I've seen, I think we needto look at intention as well.
Balance the two out, becausesomebody could have the best of
intentions and they just don'tknow the right way to show you.
I would rather have somebodywith the best of intentions and
that doesn't quite hit the markthan somebody who nails it
(38:12):
perfectly but their intention isgreed.
They're just kind ofmanipulating me, so we just have
to be wary of.
It's like okay, we got beefjerky, not the best, but what
was their intention?
I personally love beef jerky, Iwould love that kind of bonus
or whatever you wanna call it.
But I think when it comes tothat, we really need to just,
(38:34):
yes, as a leader, try to readyour audience, but you're not
gonna satisfy even if you have astaff of 10, and you say I
wanna get them all something.
The same thing, you're notgonna nail it perfectly.
So I think people really do needto look at what the intention
is.
That's why I talked aboutacknowledgement in the previous
episode, I think earlier in thisepisode, where, even if I've
(38:57):
worked with people myself, I'vecoached people where they're
like A raise would be great, butat least just acknowledge me,
at least look me in the eye, atleast thank me, show me that
your intention is there, even ifyou can't afford it.
Say in this situation, theyjust can't afford it.
Even if you can't afford it, Iknow your intention is there,
(39:18):
that you would do right by me,but your intention matters.
So I would just say to peoplejust be extra careful with how
you convey it to others, yourintentions.
And then if somebody conveyssomething to you that doesn't
really strike you right away,you know, look more at what
their intention is.
Just be cognizant of that.
You don't want to dismisssomebody or anybody too quickly
(39:39):
without really thinking aboutwhat they were trying to do.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, and I think that goes back really well to
your point of just being human,Like you don't have to be this
perfect and every way leader andI think one of my favorite
leaders in history, GeorgeWashington, was very open about
that.
It was listen, I'm not perfectand I don't try to be, but this
is what I'm trying to get done.
Yes, and I think to yourintention point if you're open
(40:07):
and you're human with people,that you'll not only find the
people that you're looking for,but your intention will be very
clear.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Because, to me, the better mark of a leader is one
that says they're not quite sureabout how to proceed and
they're open enough tofacilitating a conversation to
get the best result out of thepeople that are around them, as
opposed to somebody that justkeeps it to themselves that they
don't know what they're doingand now they're taking us all
along for this ride, that wedon't know where it's gonna end
(40:37):
up, and neither do they.
So that vulnerability, thathumanity, show me what it is
you're all about and that you'rewilling to listen that's gonna
help me, help you.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Oh, I love that.
All right, so we've got becurious, facilitate
psychological safety, be humankind of, open the door to
managing people in a way thatworks best for them.
Is there anything I missed onthat?
Speaker 2 (41:03):
No, no, I mean there's little tidbits here and
there that you and I shot backand forth, but no, I mean those
are the highlights.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
All right.
Well, john, I do appreciateyour time today and I look
forward to working with youagain.
Man, it's been great.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Anytime, man.
You know I love talking allthings leadership, innovation,
ideas, humanity, getting better.
You know, I'm all for it, justreach out.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
I will.
We'll definitely have some more.
I think there's about twoepisodes I've already written
down.
As we talked about man, we canreally unpack that Any time.
Hello and welcome back to the Innovate Everything
podcast.
I am your host, john Mowed, andwe are continuing our segment
with John Jeremilo talking aboutpreparing our organizations for
innovation.
Today we're talkingspecifically about finding
hidden innovators, puttingourselves and our organizations
in the right positions toidentify these people, bring
them forward, make them feelcomfortable sharing their
(00:22):
innovations, and kind of talkingabout some strategy of making
sure that we are facilitatingthe right mental headspace and
the right psychological safetyto get these people to want to
be participatory.
Quick refresher on JohnJeremilo.
John Jeremilo is the founderleadership performance coach and
consultant at CoachedOut LLC.
In that capacity, he helps hisclients throughout
(00:45):
organizational hierarchy breakthrough to their next level of
leadership, performance andeffectiveness Clients who
realize just how much more oftheir abilities, experience and
goals they can bring to thetable.
His professional experience inthe public, private, profit and
non-profit sectors allow him totransfer his lessons across
business industries,organizational structures and
(01:06):
leadership needs, while workingwith anyone from students to
seasoned executives.
In addition to coaching, heenjoys writing, both blogging
and co-authoring various books,and presenting and speaking on
leadership.
His signature talks includeDesign your Leadership Nine Ways
to Sharpen your LeadershipBrand and the Every Day and
Platinum Networking, designing aunique experience for others in
(01:29):
a world of disconnection.
He hosts two podcasts the BookLeads Impactful Books for Life
and Leadership, and the mindsettalks Life Beyond the Checkboxes
.
You can find him atcoachedoutcom I have personally
listened to almost weekly theBook Leads Impactful Books for
Life and Leadership, and I cantell you that John is an
(01:52):
incredible interviewer.
I'm actually excited to flipthis into making him the
interviewee because he hasgained so much knowledge from
some fantastic guests he's hadon that podcast that I just want
to unpack what he has gainedfrom all that and give him the
(02:13):
opportunity to speak, because Ilearned something new every
single time that he and I talk.
You have these people.
There are all around you, kindof like the Men in Black intro
all around you, everywhere youlook, there's these hidden
innovators.
You just don't know they'rethere.
How do we tune your lens?
(02:33):
How do we change the way thatyou view your organization Now
that we're prepared forinnovation?
How do we find those peoplearound us?
We talked about the people whoare, very specifically, I want
to come in, clock in, clock out,go home, but then you have
people like and I'll use theexample of Jim Carrey Jim Carrey
speaks about his father, whereJim Carrey's dad was an
(02:55):
incredible musician and a reallyfunny guy, but he was an
accountant because he was soscared of not providing for his
family.
Jim Carrey talks all the timeabout how his dad was such a
character that a large chunk ofthe characters that he plays in
his movies were basically hisillustration of how his dad was.
He always talks about what kindof person, what kind of
(03:18):
entertainer could my dad havebeen if he wasn't just so scared
to provide for his family thathe settled for accounting?
Could he have been me?
Could he have been bigger thanme?
And I look at that and I thinkof the people in your
organization right now that areout there on the work floor or
out there in the office rightnow.
That could be your CIO, couldbe your chief innovation officer
(03:44):
or your chief informationofficer, people who could be
such an integral part of yourorganization.
But because you hired them atan hourly position looking for a
certain skill set, right nowyou don't know they exist
because they factory workernumber 376, but this person has
all the ideas and they have somuch potential.
How do we unlock that?
(04:05):
So, john, welcome back.
Hey, man, thank you for havingme again.
So we're going to lean intoagain into your skills as a
leader, your skills in coachingleaders.
What role does innovation playin leadership?
How are leaders and innovationconnected?
Are they connected at all?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I think they're connected in terms of.
For me, let me speak to justleadership first.
For me, regardless of all theattributes you may see in
articles, journals, reports,studies, whatever it may be
about leadership and theattributes that make up
leadership for me, my money hasalways been on curiosity as the
foundation of leadership.
(04:46):
That's one thing I always write, I always speak and say listen,
what I'm providing here areoptions, they're considerations.
I want you to open up yourthinking.
This is one thing that I willnot budge on.
I will die on the CuriosityHill because curiosity plays
into all those other attributes.
All those other attributescan't happen without curiosity.
(05:07):
Do you think about some of theattributes of great leadership?
Empathy, vulnerability, vision,strategy, listing, emotional
intelligence all those stem outof curiosity.
So you have to have thatauthentic curiosity first.
Again, we talked in theprevious episode about not
making it seem like just acheckbox.
So in empathy, you have to becurious.
(05:28):
You have to be open to thepeople around you.
In vulnerability, you have tobe curious about okay, who can I
open up to and feel safe?
How can I get to a better spacefor myself to reflect who I am?
Vision you have to be curiousabout the future.
You have to be curious aboutthe skills and resources you
have now to reach to where youwant to get Strategy.
(05:50):
You have to be curious aboutall the resources you have
around you and what you can puttogether to execute that vision.
Listening curiosity obviouslythat's an obvious tie in
Emotional intelligence.
You have to be curious aboutthe welfare of other people
around you.
So for me, curiosity is thefoundation again of all things.
Leadership and in terms ofinnovation, how leadership and
(06:13):
innovation tie in, is thatcuriosity?
You have to be curious aboutthe people around you, the
resources you have, the industrythat you're in, the competitors
that are out there trying toeat your lunch.
You have to be open to what yousee and what you don't, and
that's where that curiositycomes in.
(06:34):
You have to be curious enoughto find your blind spots or work
with people or set anenvironment that's sound enough
to identify those blind spotsfor you.
So evolution is great, but Imean you want game changing,
momentum forward and you canonly do that if you really tap
into all the resources you have.
I mean, think about the pandemic.
(06:55):
Leaders are gonna wanna stay inthis pre-pandemic mode where
things are just transactional.
They don't wanna change withthe times.
But people are really lookingfor transformational work.
So are you really?
Are you curious enough to learnabout that and who you have at
your disposal?
Because, with the awarenessthat came out of the pandemic
(07:16):
and how people want thattransformational work, that ties
into their values, wherethey're making a difference, if
you're not listening and you'renot providing the environment
for the people that work for you, that you don't have to cater
to everybody 100%, but if you'renot listening, people will take
stock of that and, in a likelyscenario, they may go somewhere
else.
So again, leadership andinnovation.
(07:37):
The power behind both of thoseis that curiosity to know what
you have, curiosity may havekilled the cat, but it built the
leader.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So, yeah, exactly so, as a leader, you're having
these moments where you'recurious, you're open-minded,
which is naturally gonna lead toyou trying a lot of different
things.
So you're gonna go out andyou're gonna find opportunities
to foster that curiosity inothers, but you're also gonna
try something different becauseyou saw, maybe it worked
(08:06):
somewhere else.
We spoke a lot in our veryfirst episode about the way that
you view the world, that lensthat you're looking for the
world.
So in Henry Ford's case, it wasthis epic efficiency.
Everything he saw was anefficiency lens.
And so he goes out and he seesa meat packaging facility and,
instead of anything else, whathe sees is assembly lines I can
(08:27):
do this with cars and so thatcuriosity leads you to those
discoveries and now that you'vemade this discovery, you wanna
implement it.
Innovation's all about thepivot right, knowing when to
change course.
So how do you know when topivot?
How do you know why you shouldpivot?
(08:47):
How do you not associatepivoting with failure?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
As creative as we wanna get for innovation right,
it's about creativity.
You're either working in whatis known right now or you wanna
innovate towards the unknown.
As much as we wanna do that, asmuch as we wanna be creative,
use imagination, you gotta berealistic.
You gotta do your due diligence.
You don't wanna waste resourcesthat you can't afford to put
(09:14):
out there right.
And you also have to be humble.
You have to have that humilitywhere you don't think okay, I'm
the leader.
I've opened up this culture ofpsychological safety, of
feedback, of innovation.
Now, to prove it, I have to getthat win.
I have to get that win.
(09:35):
So, whatever we pick first,like I, have to make that work,
or else this is all for nothingand people will think that I'm a
sham and this whole process isworthless and doesn't add any
meaning or value to the work wedo.
You have to be humble enough tomodel your behavior and show
others.
Okay, listen, I tried this, Idid my best, I did my due
(09:58):
diligence.
It didn't work out.
Now I gotta try something new.
You have to get into that mode.
And in terms of associating withfailure, this is something
that's come up on my podcast alot.
It's come up in my life, it'scome up in my work with my
clients, where we have this ideaof failure where the failure
isn't that something didn't workout.
(10:18):
The failure is the perceptionwe have of it.
So if we slide into thatfailure mentality like I don't
see failure anymore, I justdon't, it doesn't mean I don't
have things work out at all, butI've just reframed it where
it's like okay, I wanted thisthing, it didn't work out, it's
a bummer, but it's not a failurebecause at the very least I
(10:39):
gave it a go.
So it's not to say that thingsdon't work out in my life or
things don't work out in thecareers of my clients, but it's
how you view it and I've learnedto see things as an experiment,
trial and error, the scientificmethod, scientific method.
They taught us in school.
For whatever experiment we hadin front of us, they gave us
(11:02):
water, they gave us measuringinstruments, they gave us a
cauldron, whatever it was.
They said this is thescientific method, this is what
we're gonna use it for, and youget that idea that it's only for
science.
But we have to get in thatmindset of constant evolution
and experimentation.
So, instead of seeing somethingas a failure as long as you did
your best, as long as you didyour due diligence, as long as
(11:24):
you listen to the people aroundyou and consider all opinions.
If something looks like it'snot gonna move forward and
everybody's in agreement andeverybody can make their case
that it's not gonna work out, behumble enough to say, okay,
this isn't gonna work out, butat the very least we tried.
So failure for me.
Just that concept of failure,that idea that if I didn't
(11:45):
achieve something I'm a failure,or it's a failure for me, it's
just the ultimate effort, and itkills dreams, it kills
motivation, it kills drive.
We have to get into that mindsetand I try to instill it with my
sons and my daughter when she'sold enough.
Same thing with her.
If something doesn't work out,it's not the end of the world,
it means that that particularthing, as long as you tried your
(12:06):
best, wasn't meant for you.
There's so much out there totry, why stop there?
So that's a mindset that wehave to instill in our kids,
that next generation, and it'sone that we have to learn
ourselves, or relearn ourselves,and be humble enough to know I
did my best, it didn't work out.
Now it's just time to regroup,pick up my tools again and try
(12:29):
something new with those lessonsthat I learned in that first go
.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, and I love that you tied in the kids to that,
because I know you personally.
I know you're an awesome father.
I view everything in my life.
When I talk to people aboutcuriosity and innovation and
trying new things, I alwaysrefer to my journey as a parent.
I've got a four-year-old and atwo-year-old and trying to
(12:56):
understand as a parent thatsometimes when they're making a
mess, it's curiosity, it'slearning.
There's so many opportunitieswhere they're grabbing each
crayon, snapping in half.
As a parent, you're looking atit and going I mean that's just
destructive and you probablyshouldn't do that.
But at the same time, thatcuriosity is the same way that
(13:16):
they realize that they can holdtwo little crayons together and
color two colors at once.
They probably never would havediscovered that unless.
So, a lot of times as a parent,as a leader of any kind, you
have to allow curiosity to getmessy without getting stressed
out.
That it's you know.
Or as a business owner,sometimes that curiosity can get
(13:37):
expensive.
But if your focus and your goalis on letting it get messy,
letting it get expensive inmanner to create progress or to
learn something new, it's okayto let that happen.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah, this conversation about our kids
reminds me of a presentation Igave years ago I forget the
exact title, but it wasessentially, you know, my
greatest leadership coach 10lessons that I learned from my
toddler, my oldest at the time,who was like three or four, and
it is about and I've talkedabout this on the podcast with
guests that have all been aboutthe wonder of childhood, the awe
(14:17):
of childhood, tapping into ourchildhood, our inner child, to
look for the wonder of life, tolook for the imagination of life
, to step away from the scriptof life, the stuff that we're
indoctrinated with, and goingback to that wonder.
And again, so many things standout, but the one of them is
I've beaten this dead horseplenty curiosity.
(14:39):
Obviously, if you have kids, ifyou've seen kids, you know that
they're just curious abouteverything.
That's my number one lesson inthat presentation.
But just the learning, and I'vetalked about how therapeutic it
is just to sit there and watchthe kids play.
The questions that they ask,the discoveries that they make.
They make you look at the worldin a new way, things you didn't
(15:00):
consider before.
Their minds they say whatevercomes to mind.
They have that psychologicalsafety when it comes to just
kind of asking questions.
They trigger like new, likesome of the best conversations
I've had with my kids, becausemost times they're just
unfiltered, they're curious,they're learning, they help me
see things in a new way, andthese are all lessons that we
(15:22):
can learn as leaders, from thepeople around them by allowing
that conversation to flow.
So we all have to have thatconfidence to speak up with the
things that we see.
So there's a responsibility onall sides as a leader, being
open and setting the stage forthose that are being led and
(15:42):
those that are being led.
If you get that permission,it's important to kind of speak
your mind, to share what you'rethinking, how you're viewing it,
because everybody has a uniquevoice.
No one is going to see thingsthe way that you do.
Nobody has the exact mix ofexperiences education, work,
traumas, successes, things thatdidn't work out, aka failures so
(16:06):
everybody has something tocontribute.
So again, that wonder that akid has of experimenting with
the life and the world aroundthem.
It's just, it's amazing to seebefore school indoctrinates it
out of them and they startthinking about failure.
And you didn't complete this.
So your class is going aheadwithout you.
(16:27):
So tap into that wonder of achild.
Watch a kid and just see whatthey get from just the simple
things of life.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, absolutely and okay.
So we're tapping into thewonder of life and we've just
covered, obviously, that lifeteaches you that failure is
painful and that failure isstressful, and so you're trying
to change your organization.
As a leader, how do youmitigate that stress on your
(16:56):
team so that your team doesn'tfeel burned out by this constant
change around them?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, and I think I mentioned in the previous
episode where I see peoplecoming out of school, coming out
of jobs, and the ability toskill, the resources that they
have is like at 100% of who theyare, and then the next job
description is kind of like wejust need kind of these things
right here and it doesn't happento you, holy, like it only taps
into 60% of what you canproduce.
So it's important to reallyunderstand what somebody can
(17:29):
bring to the table.
You've seen various examples ofthat, john, I'm sure I mean you
know, give me an example thatyou've seen.
We've seen them all around us.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Give me an example that you've seen, if you could
come into this warehouse and I'mjust monitoring the warehouse
to maybe design a differentlayout, maybe it's to generate
some efficiency in how they pickand pack.
But you're in this warehouseand you're watching and you see
this employee and, in thisparticular case, this guy.
All he did it was the simplestthing in the world and all he
(18:01):
did was when he went into thecold storage room he had cut out
this cooler.
He just had a regular big gluecooler.
He took the top off of it andwhen he'd picked the stuff in
the cold storage and he'd put itin that cooler and he would do
the rest of his picking fromthere, everybody else is taking
(18:22):
their cooler items dead.
Last we started to unpack why hedid that and he basically said
the efficiency of where thecooler room is is so far away
from everything else.
If you're going to do that last, you get stuck in this long
line of people trying to getback to their stations and
they're coming out from the endof the aisles and they're
(18:43):
picking other things he's like.
So it takes me so long to getback to my station.
If I pick the cooler itemsfirst, I can end right by my
station.
What he says is, and the itemsin the cooler are actually
colder by the time they're done.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
That's an amazing story because people will work
in a direction that allows themto share their ideas.
But in the end, they want let'snot lie about what innovation
can be, aside from a masterproduct or a master service
that's out there most of thetime.
Innovation, these small littleinnovative minds, like you just
said most of it is to make theirjob not easier but more
(19:24):
efficient.
People see the ways that existin their surroundings and they
want to eliminate those.
They'll do those at their, forinstance, their own station,
their own desk.
You want to extrapolate that.
So where I was going with thatthe whole comparison of if
somebody's full amount of skillsor full detail of skills,
versus what a job asks for, theyhave so much more to give.
(19:48):
If you open up the door wherethey can share more of that,
they will Like.
The ones that want to will.
Hopefully, the ones that don'tfeel comfortable will see that
modeled in their coworkers andstep up with their own ideas
Once they see okay, this one, hetook one for the team.
I see that he shared his ideas,he's given feedback and he's
(20:09):
still here.
Nothing bad's gonna happen.
This really is authentic.
The leaders really do want toknow what's going on.
I think, opening that up butnot making it constant.
You don't want to burn them outby asking over and over again.
You just want to create thatculture, you want to foster that
culture.
Where should something come upin their mind?
(20:30):
Much like the cooler idea thatyou saw that that gentleman
would make that suggestion toothers or that somebody in his
group would say, hey, that's agreat idea.
Hey, bosses, leaders, I sawwhat's his phase do this.
I think it's a great idea thatthey feel open enough that they
can share that, that they canmodel new behaviors.
So I think a lot of it.
If you give them permission, alot of it is modeled, a lot of
(20:53):
it comes up naturally.
So you don't want to burn themout by asking them every day
what's a new idea?
What's a new idea?
But at least open up thatculture where they can act
naturally, share ideas naturallyand then go from there, tap it
so that it comes from themnaturally, instead of saying
this is a culture of innovationover and over and like hammering
it in every day.
(21:14):
Just set that tone, followthrough with your words here and
there, check in with them, butallow that to bubble up, and
that's a great example that youjust saw.
I mean, think about how muchtime, how much energy that saves
.
Should other people follow thatgentleman's example about
getting those cold items firstand walking back towards a
(21:34):
station?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
And that's the thing too right.
It is one of the reasons that Imade note of that guy.
Not only is it because he hadthis cooler right he's the only
one with a cooler on his littletrolley walking around but once
you start asking those questionsof why you did that, you
realize that when it comes toefficiency of process like
regardless of what he calls itor how he identifies it, that
(22:00):
guy gets it.
You know, let's call him coolerguy, because I don't want to
put this actual name out there,but let's say cooler guy, right?
How do you find these hiddeninnovators in your organization?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Again, it's about modeling the behavior you want.
It's about walking that walk.
Not making it about check boxes, not making it about solely a
policy, but about demonstratingwhat that looks like.
Modeling it with your if you'rea leader at the top, modeling
it with your executive team.
Modeling it using certainlanguage and emails, walking
(22:35):
around, checking in with people,learning people's names, like
creating that culture ofconnection and openness.
As you do that, you can workinto learning more about people,
asking questions about people,and you create that ripple
effect where, even if you're atthe top of an organization
(22:56):
that's 50,000 people the peopleimmediately below you in the
hierarchy they see that and theypractice those steps, those
actions, those attributes andit's a ripple effect from the
top.
And once you see that rippleeffect go out, it doesn't mean
you stop doing what you're doing.
It's constant reassurance andreinforcement that this is the
way that we want to do things.
(23:17):
So you can set up policieswhere you have a suggestion box.
Maybe they're anonymous tips,but you can also just foster
that psychological safety wherepeople just they see it, they
see the attribute acted out,they emulate it, they see the
benefits, that next layer ofpeople sees it, and so on and so
(23:39):
forth, and they'll get to thepoint where, because they're in
that culture, they'll ask morequestions of each other, they'll
make more suggestions to eachother, they'll praise each other
, acknowledge each other, andthe more you do that, the more
you'll reap, because, again,that culture is just fostering
growth and development andawareness.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
One of the things that I've always done, since I
mean since my four year old was,was one.
I tell her all the time likeyou know, you've got this,
you've got this big brain andI'll, you know she'll, she'll
get frustrated by something andI'll say, you know, I'll say,
figure it out.
Like, just think about it andfigure it out.
And maybe six, eight months agomy wife's riding in the car
(24:21):
with her and she droppedsomething and my wife was like,
oh well, we'll have to wait tillwe get home.
And she and my wife comes homeand goes, she looks me straight
in the face and says, mommy,figure it out.
I don't know where she got thatfrom.
And I was like, I think, sayingthat since she was a kid,
because I want to foster thisenvironment where she solves
problems, she learns how tothink, not what to think.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Exactly.
That's exactly a great point,and I keep reinforcing and
bringing up the kids onlybecause as long as I've been a
leadership coach, I've known orlearned along the way, but
definitely know now that thelessons of leadership are the
same, no matter if you're a twoyear old, a four year old or a
60 year old executive orsomebody in retirement.
(25:05):
The lessons are exactly thesame.
The verbiage change changes,the vernacular changes, the
industry jargon changes isdifferent from one person to the
next, but the lessons areexactly the same.
That's why that presentation,that 10 lessons from my toddler,
my ultimate leadership coach,or whatever I titled it, that's
why that was relevant toseasoned executives that I was
(25:28):
sharing that with, because thelessons are exactly the same,
especially about curiosity.
And a few more points that Iwant to make about finding those
hidden innovators in yourorganization is you need to
convey to them that whateverthey suggest, whatever they put
forth, doesn't have to be earthshattering, and this is a human
(25:48):
lesson.
You want to make a differencein the world.
You don't have to wait for itto be perfect, it doesn't have
to be earth shattering, itdoesn't have to be seismic to
make a difference.
You can put forward just thatsmall gesture, that small
suggestion, and watch it ripplethrough with your team.
So they need to know that eventhe little stuff counts, the
(26:09):
little suggestions, that itdoesn't have to be this massive
movement because we lose out onso much, because a lot of people
hold back, because they don'tthink that what they think or
suggest would make that much ofa difference.
And then the other piece offinding those hidden innovators
is making it a part of yourculture so that that message
resonates.
So it's the internal andexternal communications, the
(26:32):
interviewing, the onboarding,the training, ongoing
development, that psychologicalsafety, that reiteration and
reinforcement of innovativethinking and psychological
safety, as I mentioned, has tobe in all those things the
language that you use ispowerful.
So emails you send out, certainlanguage will resonate, others
(26:54):
won't.
For all of these communications, interviewing, onboarding,
training, ongoing development,the wording that you use in each
of those reinforces that you'reall about innovative thinking,
finding innovative people,listening to innovative ideas
and feedback.
Set that culture, set thatlanguage.
(27:15):
Make it a part of everythingthat your business touches.
Not overkill, but there's a wayto write an email, there's a
way to write a communication.
There's a way to interviewsomebody, onboard somebody,
train somebody, develop somebody, where at every step, you
reinforce what that innovativeculture is all about.
So because you do that, peoplethat are hidden, that don't come
(27:38):
to the forefront right away,they'll see that you're serious
about it and they'll open up alittle more.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
And I think that's the biggest thing a lot of times
is we don't keep it simple.
We try and be, like you'resaying, too jargon-heavy too.
There's too much of thatgobbledygook just floating
around that no one has any ideawhat it all means and they feel
like they have to bring thismassive idea to the table or
it's not going to hold up to theemail I just sent about our
(28:03):
innovative culture.
That leads to.
The next point is so you've gotthese people who, let's say
they have great ideas, but whenthey see that email they're like
eh, I don't know what.
If your best innovators don'twant to be leaders, how do you
tap into their potential withoutforcing them to become
something that they're not?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I think you somehow, in your messaging, you convey
that it's not that somebody hasto step in and lead the effort.
You know that you're lookingfor ideas that people can
contribute as much as they want,that if they feel more
comfortable doing it anonymously, then that's the you have to
tap into.
(28:44):
Whatever it is that works foreach person that you want to
impact and invite conversationwith.
Not everybody wants to be aleader, formal leader, but
everybody can lead.
Everybody can set an example.
For me, example is the biggestthing.
Like, just because you don'thave a title doesn't mean that
I'm taking away from you bothgood and bad lessons of
(29:05):
leadership that I see in the wayyou carry yourself.
So even if somebody that's inthe organization doesn't want to
lead, clarify, listen, justbecause you have an idea doesn't
mean that you're the one thathas to lead it to success, that
you're the one that has to leadthe project.
You know we want to make itabout ideas.
Obviously you will play a part.
You know will want to refinethe idea and pick your brain,
(29:27):
but only as much as you want to.
You know this is part of notburning them out.
You can't make it, you can'tmandate it, you can't make them
feel comfortable.
You can't make themautomatically a team leader on
your innovation team becausethey came up with the idea.
You have to respect people.
You have to meet them wherethey are but in the process of
(29:48):
that open culture you reinforce,it's about your idea.
It's about you putting togetherwhat you want to see and
putting that forth, but you'renot going to drag somebody into
the limelight.
I think a big part ofleadership and that curiosity is
knowing and learning what eachperson, how far they want to go.
(30:09):
You know, for a lot of peoplegetting to the top of an
organization is a goal.
For other people it's just,yeah, a better paycheck.
But when it gets to a certainpoint, I don't want to be the
leader.
It doesn't mean they don't havethose ideas.
So respect that enough to knowthat even if somebody doesn't
want to step out in thespotlight doesn't mean that they
don't have a wealth ofknowledge that you can tap into.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
A lot of times what you'll see in an organization is
people say, well, I gave themthat idea and I didn't even get
a raise.
I got nothing for it.
Right, and how do you as anorganization?
So let's say, the idea wasgreat, but maybe it cost me
$80,000 to implement it.
And as a business owner, Idon't necessarily think I owe
(30:53):
you something monetary,necessarily.
But how do I help you feelrewarded by that without either
coming out of pocket financially?
Or should I come out of pocketfinancially, how do I make sure
that that employee feelsrewarded without feeling like I
took advantage of their idea?
Speaker 2 (31:10):
I think every organization should do what
financially works for them.
Obviously, bonuses are acompensation structure, award
structure.
It depends on what thecompany's values are.
I mean, can they go so far asto provide somebody with a bonus
or a gift card, whatever it maybe?
I think each company needs todo, or leader or group needs to
(31:32):
do, what it can.
Hopefully it gets to that pointin the conversation where the
organizations, the leaders, havemade it about the quality.
They've made it about theauthenticity, they've made it
about.
We're all in this together.
This is a change.
This is change that we can putemotion as a group, as a team,
(31:55):
as a company.
Hopefully it gets to that pointwhere people do recognize that
intrinsic reward that they getby contributing to something
bigger than themselves andeverybody's different.
Some people see the value ofhey, I contributed to this, hey,
I provided some feedback thatwent into a product or a service
(32:16):
and they tweaked it to meet mysuggestions.
That's amazing.
And other people they do wantto see extrinsic rewards.
I gave them this idea, theyrolled with it, I gave them
feedback, they used it, theytweaked it and now they're
making all this money and theydidn't give me anything.
I don't think that'snecessarily bad on the company.
(32:37):
I think it would be amazing formyself to get some kind of gift
card or bonus.
I'm not gonna lie, I think wewould all appreciate that.
If I don't get it, at the veryleast I'd want some
acknowledgement that I helped,or my name on a label or
whatever it might be.
Even if not, hey, they took myidea.
For me, that's rewarding enough.
(32:58):
I know that I gave everything Icould and it rolled out to
fruition.
People have to decide whichcompany they want to work for.
That's the capitalism ofworkforce thinking, if you can
call it that.
Like, if this is the kind ofcompany you want to be, you have
to decide how you want to shiftto keep certain people.
(33:19):
So you need to decide.
Okay, certain people areleaving because they're not
getting bonuses.
Okay, then we'll just takewhoever's coming to us.
Or, yeah, we want to keep thesepeople.
So, okay, they're saying thatthey provide feedback, they
provide suggestions.
They're not even getting, like,a gift card.
Okay, let's do that.
So, john, there's no answer toyour question.
(33:42):
It depends on where the companyis and it depends on the values
of the company, the values ofthe people that work there.
But I think intention is veryimportant.
If your company makes you feelas if you're being taken
advantage of, that's gonna feelvery differently from one that
gives you praise andacknowledgement.
So everybody in this situationhas to do what they can and what
(34:04):
they need for themselves.
To a certain extent you knowwhat I mean.
There has to be a balancebetween what I give to the
organization, what we can giveto employees, and what the
company has to keep for itselfor what the individual employee
needs for themselves.
So people will end up wherethey're supposed to be and
everybody has to kind of rethinkit every so often.
(34:25):
Okay, this thing is reallyworking.
We didn't have a bonus structureand plan, but you know we're
seeing some benefit.
Let's dole it out and providesome.
Let's give them some somethingfrom the table.
But it's gonna depend on thecompany, it's gonna depend on
the people.
I think the pandemic showedthat people will start moving
towards companies where theyfeel valued or their values are
(34:49):
aligned, and I think it's nodifferent in this kind of
situation.
If you want that extrinsic,you'll find a company that does
it.
If you want the extrinsic butit's not that serious, you'll
stick around.
So everybody has to take thepulse of what's good for the
organization as well as what'sgood for the employees and how
those two reconcile.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I think some of that leads back to being curious, and
I think if you're, if you arecurious enough to be in that
environment you have, if you'vecreated an environment of
psychological safety, theyshould just, in theory, just
tell you right, like, hey, thisis kind of what I, you know, now
that we've got this thingrolling, this is what I was kind
of hoping for, and if you havean environment that's open to it
(35:28):
.
And I wanna say, oh my gosh,entrepreneurs on Fire is a
podcast I listen to fairly oftenand there was an episode with a
.
There was a lady who owned amoving company and when the
recession hit in the early 2000s, she didn't have the money to
(35:49):
provide bonuses for the workersand she felt bad not giving
something.
So she went out and bought likethis, like bulk thing of beef
jerky and provided them beefjerky and a bunch of them quit,
and she was like I have no ideawhat happened.
And you know, when she went andsolicited feedback, they're
like we didn't.
(36:10):
We were looking forward to thebonus, yes, but we would rather
you have given us nothing, causeit felt insincere.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
And so there's that environment of psychological
safety, but there's thatcuriosity where you know she had
all the good intentions in theworld but she wasn't in tune to
whatever one was thinking andwanting, and I think that that,
to me, is the biggest piece ofthat.
If you are trying to find thesehidden innovators, keep that
environment open that allowsthem to feel like they are
(36:42):
valued enough to speak theirmind, regardless of what they
have to say, while obviouslymaintaining your leadership
status and, you know, garnishingthe respect that you deserve.
Obviously you don't want tocreate an environment where
everyone's just a little tooopen with how they feel about
everything.
But Absolutely.
At the same time.
If you've got that samepsychological safety to share
ideas, I imagine you couldgenerate the same thing to share
(37:05):
feedback.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
You know and everybody this is something I've
phrase, I've started using likesince the pandemic like you
gotta give a little grace toothers in their actions, right,
certain actions.
I'm not saying let yourself bewalked on.
And I've had Hesha Abrams on mypodcast, where she's a mediator
(37:28):
, world-renowned, works withglobal companies, the Googles,
the Twitters and all those andshe talked about how, even
though you have a certainintention, whatever the impact
is that that's the mostimportant piece.
But to me, I've learned overthe last couple of years.
For me and I respectfullydisagree, just because, based on
(37:50):
what I've seen, I think we needto look at intention as well.
Balance the two out, becausesomebody could have the best of
intentions and they just don'tknow the right way to show you.
I would rather have somebodywith the best of intentions and
that doesn't quite hit the markthan somebody who nails it
(38:12):
perfectly but their intention isgreed.
They're just kind ofmanipulating me, so we just have
to be wary of.
It's like okay, we got beefjerky, not the best, but what
was their intention?
I personally love beef jerky, Iwould love that kind of bonus
or whatever you wanna call it.
But I think when it comes tothat, we really need to just,
(38:34):
yes, as a leader, try to readyour audience, but you're not
gonna satisfy even if you have astaff of 10, and you say I
wanna get them all something.
The same thing, you're notgonna nail it perfectly.
So I think people really do needto look at what the intention
is.
That's why I talked aboutacknowledgement in the previous
episode, I think earlier in thisepisode, where, even if I've
(38:57):
worked with people myself, I'vecoached people where they're
like A raise would be great, butat least just acknowledge me,
at least look me in the eye, atleast thank me, show me that
your intention is there, even ifyou can't afford it.
Say in this situation, theyjust can't afford it.
Even if you can't afford it, Iknow your intention is there,
(39:18):
that you would do right by me,but your intention matters.
So I would just say to peoplejust be extra careful with how
you convey it to others, yourintentions.
And then if somebody conveyssomething to you that doesn't
really strike you right away,you know, look more at what
their intention is.
Just be cognizant of that.
You don't want to dismisssomebody or anybody too quickly
(39:39):
without really thinking aboutwhat they were trying to do.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, and I think that goes back really well to
your point of just being human,Like you don't have to be this
perfect and every way leader andI think one of my favorite
leaders in history, GeorgeWashington, was very open about
that.
It was listen, I'm not perfectand I don't try to be, but this
is what I'm trying to get done.
Yes, and I think to yourintention point if you're open
(40:07):
and you're human with people,that you'll not only find the
people that you're looking for,but your intention will be very
clear.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Because, to me, the better mark of a leader is one
that says they're not quite sureabout how to proceed and
they're open enough tofacilitating a conversation to
get the best result out of thepeople that are around them, as
opposed to somebody that justkeeps it to themselves that they
don't know what they're doingand now they're taking us all
along for this ride, that wedon't know where it's gonna end
(40:37):
up, and neither do they.
So that vulnerability, thathumanity, show me what it is
you're all about and that you'rewilling to listen that's gonna
help me, help you.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Oh, I love that.
All right, so we've got becurious, facilitate
psychological safety, be humankind of, open the door to
managing people in a way thatworks best for them.
Is there anything I missed onthat?
Speaker 2 (41:03):
No, no, I mean there's little tidbits here and
there that you and I shot backand forth, but no, I mean those
are the highlights.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
All right.
Well, john, I do appreciateyour time today and I look
forward to working with youagain.
Man, it's been great.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Anytime, man.
You know I love talking allthings leadership, innovation,
ideas, humanity, getting better.
You know, I'm all for it, justreach out.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
I will.
We'll definitely have some more.
I think there's about twoepisodes I've already written
down.
As we talked about man, we canreally unpack that Any time.
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