February 24, 2024 • 41 mins
Unlock the enigma of innovation with the insightful John Jeremilo, leadership performance coach and pioneer at CoachedOut LLC. Imagine transforming your team into a breeding ground for breakthroughs, harnessing each member's full potential from the onset. That’s the promise of our latest podcast episode, where you'll discover the essential elements of transparency, curiosity, and respect vital for a psychologically safe workplace. Together with John, we dissect the layers beneath the buzzword 'innovation' and reveal the heartbeat of an authentically innovative organization.
Ever wonder how leaders can inspire change without just paying lip service to innovation? Look no further. Our conversation delves into how authenticity in leadership actions fosters a culture of innovation that invites collaboration and forward-thinking. You'll gain insights into how traditional leaders can adapt and champion a mindset that celebrates feedback and autonomy, with a nod to companies like 3M that have soared by empowering their teams. This episode is your roadmap to evolving leadership practices that inspire every employee to become a catalyst for progress.
As we wrap up, we examine the impact of leadership on individual capabilities and the broader organizational propensity for innovation. We tease the upcoming conversation about identifying and empowering hidden innovators in your company, emphasizing the importance of nurturing leadership qualities for sound business practices and overall growth. With a landscape where social media shines a light on company cultures, this episode is your guide on navigating the winds of change and transforming your business dynamic. Join us for a journey into creating a more innovative, transparent, and collaborative future.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the Inhibit Everything
podcast.
I'm your host, john Mode, andover the next two weeks we're
gonna be unpacking how to findand negotiate the waters of
bringing innovation into yourorganization.
John Jeremilo is the founderleadership performance coach and
consultant at CoachedOut LLC.
In that capacity, he helps hisclients throughout
(00:21):
organizational hierarchy breakthrough to their next level of
leadership, performance andeffectiveness.
Clients realize just how muchmore of their abilities,
experience and goals they canbring to the table.
His professional experience inthe public, private profit and
nonprofit sectors allow him totransfer his lessons across
business industries,organizational structures and
(00:43):
leadership needs, while workingwith anyone from students to
seasoned executives.
In addition to coaching, heenjoys writing both blogging and
co-authoring various books, andpresenting and speaking on
leadership.
His signature talks includedesign your leadership nine ways
to sharpen your leadershipbrand in the everyday, and
platinum networking designing aunique experience for others in
(01:05):
a world of disconnection.
He hosts two podcasts the bookleads impactful books for life
and leadership, and the mindsettalks life beyond the checkboxes
.
You can find him atcoachedoutcom I have personally
listened to almost weekly.
The book leads impactful booksfor life and leadership, and I
(01:26):
can tell you that John is anincredible interviewer.
So I'm actually kind of excitedto flip this into making him
the interviewer interview E,because he has gained so much
knowledge from some fantasticguests he's had on that podcast
that I just wanna kind of unpackwhat he has gained from all
(01:48):
that and give him theopportunity to speak, because I
learned something new everysingle time that he and I talk.
What we're talking about todayis you're a business owner or
you are a an entrepreneur or aleader in your organization and
you really want to do thisbuzzword that everyone calls
(02:08):
innovation.
You've got this idea in yourhead that you want to take the
next step as a company or as anorganization, or, if you're in a
you know, a bit of a financialdownturn as an organization, you
want to improve it.
And how do we improve thatorganization?
How do we use this thing calledinnovation?
And I feel like a lot of times,innovation can be used as a
(02:30):
buzzword.
And so there's this idea thatyou are innovating, and what
does that mean?
Am I just incorporatingtechnology?
What exactly am I doing?
But I think before we jump intoinnovation, we need to set the
stage for innovation, get yourcompany ready to do so, and so,
(02:50):
as I said before, I'm joined byJohn Jermelo, and John is a
phenomenal mind and leadership,and I wanted to kind of open the
door to how do we set the stagefor innovation.
So, good morning, john.
How are?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
you.
Hey man, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I'm doing well, so all right, john.
So if you're a leader in anorganization or you're coaching
a leader in an organization, howdo you set the stage for
innovation and prepare yourbusiness to accept innovative
ideas?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I think from McGecko, you don't even need to be in or
be aware that you're in aninnovative arena, that you need
innovation.
Okay, so we're talkinginnovation, but set that aside
for a second.
I think any leader going intoany arena, any place, any team,
whatever it may be, I think theyneed to set the stage for
(03:43):
collecting ideas, getting whatthey can from the people around
them.
I think the problem with a lotof leaders is they come into a
new space, a new team, and maybethey figure okay, I was brought
in for a reason.
Let me just keep doing what Iwas doing with this other group
over here.
But you have to customize yourapproach.
You have to customize it towhoever you're dealing with now.
(04:04):
You have to learn that teamwhat it is.
They need to get the best outof them.
So, when it comes to innovation, that plays into it, because we
want those ideas to comeforward.
So you have to set that stageby opening up that transparency,
by getting that environmentopen, by being one where people
feel comfortable.
They have that psychologicalsafety to open up and talk about
(04:27):
what they're thinking, whatproblems they have.
I think a lot of leaders justlook forward and outward Forward
in the mission, outward of theorganization, outward to the
stakeholders, outward to theirbosses, but they don't really
focus on the resources that theyhave internally within their
team.
So innovative mindsets need tostart day one.
(04:48):
Don't wait until you needsomething down the road.
Don't wait until you have toinnovate as soon as you can
start.
It should have been 20 days ago.
It should have been 20 monthsago.
It should be at the very leasttoday.
Get that environment open toget people talking.
So you wanna have thattransparency, you wanna have
that curiosity, you wanna havethat respect for what people are
(05:08):
bringing to the table.
What I've noticed with companiesis they'll you know you have
people coming out of college,you have people coming out of
their previous profession.
Their role, say, theirabilities are at 100, right,
100%.
Most job descriptions aren'tgonna tap into 100% of what that
person can provide.
So they're asking you to bringyour limited scope of abilities
(05:33):
to the table.
So they'll probably only askyou for maybe 50, 60%.
You know you're 100% of abilityand then the job description
says well, we only need like 50,55, 60% of that, right.
You kind of hold back just tofit in just enough to this job
description and think about thatextra 40%.
You know and now I'm making upnumbers here but there's so much
(05:56):
that companies leave on thetable by not tapping into from
day one who the people aroundthem are, what they can do for
the company and what they canbring to the table.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
So I love the thought of that external candidate
because so what I hear all thetime, especially with businesses
, is I wanna bring in somebodyfrom the outside who's got a
different point of view andthey've got different experience
.
They can incorporate that intothe organization.
But there's two pieces to thatin my mind and I want to get
(06:29):
your opinion on this.
One is why are organizations sofocused on external when it
comes to bringing in someone newwith fresh ideas, instead of
fostering an environment wherethey can test the waters of the
ideas first with their currentbase?
Because, to your point, ifyou've got somebody operating at
(06:51):
50%, that's got another 50% tooffer.
Why don't we tap into thatperson and find their potential
first before we start bringingexternal candidates?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, it's a matter of companies.
It's this mindset where theylook outside for solutions.
Again, there's that poorleadership idea that, excuse me,
whatever I see today iseverything that can be produced.
What people are showing me isall that can be produced.
There's no more to squeeze outof this, so I'm going to have to
(07:25):
go outside to get new ideas,because most leaders are.
A pitfall of leadership is thatthey look at okay, we're going
to grow incrementally, so I gotto work with what I see and this
is what people are showing me,or people should know that they
should bring me ideas.
Again, you have to open up thatdialogue, that conversation.
(07:45):
For the most part, I meanthat's traditional thinking.
If I haven't seen it, if Ihaven't seen even a hint of
innovation in my workplace ornew ideas, my people are letting
me down that way.
That's why I have to go outsideto a consultant or whoever it
may be, or partner up withanother company or another
entrepreneur or another startup,whatever it may be, which is
(08:08):
fine, it's completely fine.
You are going to get to thatpoint where you do need to go
outside, but you should makesure that happens after really
tapping into and asking aboutand being curious about the
people that are in yourorganization and getting and I'm
not saying bleed them dry, likepick their brain, like push
them to 100%, but how much morecan they give, how much more do
(08:31):
they want to share?
Have you asked them?
Everybody's very different.
They come from very differentbackgrounds, experiences,
education or not, theirprofessions that they've worked
in, fields they've worked in.
Everybody's so different.
But have you done enough tolook at the resources you have
in front of you?
Are you making frontlinechanges?
(08:53):
If you're in a warehouse, ifyou're in a factory, are you
making changes to the automationwithout picking the brain of
the people that are on thatfrontline doing the work, seeing
what's working, seeing what'snot working?
I worked with a company thatfrom year to year they had a
similar process.
This is financial company.
They had a similar process Eachyear.
(09:15):
When that season was over, theywouldn't go back and debrief
what worked, what didn't.
So when the next cycle camearound, they made changes.
Management made changes to thesystem that was being used,
without even asking thefrontline workers.
Hey, what do you think?
So changes can be incrementalby asking people around you.
They don't have to besubstantial, they don't have to
(09:36):
be big, but just start by who isin your shop, who's in your
company, your division, yourteam.
Please think about it as awasted resource.
If you're not asking thequestion, what do I have at my
disposal, before reaching outfor help in any other capacity?
There's nothing wrong with thatComplimenting the resources of
(09:58):
your group, team, organization,but at the very least try to
understand first what you havewithin your reach.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
And I love the thought of looking into what you
have.
And one of the things that Igot actually from your share of
the book leads is, I want to sayit was on the episodes in late
50s I don't remember if it wasAtlas or somebody else, but they
brought up that instead oftelling people, having people
come to you and say this is whatI've done this month, tell them
(10:29):
what you've seen them do.
And I think if you're going tosomeone on your team and you're
saying, hey, listen, this iswhat I see of you, I think you
have something to offer here topush us forward.
I think you're approaching themin a manner that makes them
feel more valued and that you'veseen something in them, as
(10:50):
opposed to just saying, hey,what do you guys have?
And that kind of leads into.
The other question that we wantto cover is so how do you
foster that environment ofpsychological safety, taking
undiscovered innovators in yourorganization, having them feel
comfortable to bring their ideasforward?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And I love that point that you brought up about
Atlas's episode.
It was his because it juststands out, he was in the
military.
And just that switch of mindsetfrom waiting for them to bring
it to you to bringing it to them, whether it's expectations,
whether it's praise, whetherit's acknowledgement that's a
great point is to be proactivein praising, in acknowledging.
(11:33):
And what's great about whatAtlas said was you're not
waiting until a performanceevaluation to tell somebody what
you've seen, whether it's goodor whether it's bad.
You're not waiting once a yearor twice a year to tell them
where they stand.
You're constantly letting themknow I've seen what you've done,
(11:55):
I appreciate it, whether it'sone-on-one, you're talking with
them if you know their style orpraise in front of your group or
team, or whether it's askingthem to come in and having a
conversation about what elsethey might need and resources.
You've noticed certain things.
You've noticed maybe things areoff.
If there's anything that youcan do, so it's being proactive.
(12:15):
It's not waiting until you needto react and say, okay, here's
your performance evaluation,here's what you did wrong in the
last 12 months.
You did great in the last 12months.
You want to get into that cycleof constant, ongoing not
constant, but ongoing Every sooften just checking in with
(12:36):
people and making sure that theyhave what they need, that
they're performing how they wantto perform, that you're both
seeing it the same way.
So that was a great point byhim to just come in and say, hey
, this is what I'm seeing, andthen going from there.
Obviously, they can bring toyou whatever they need at any
moment.
But be proactive.
Don't just wait until somethingcomes up or there's a meeting
(12:57):
or there's an evaluation to givethat praise and that feedback.
Now, in terms of your otherquestion, I believe, john, was
how do you foster that?
How do you get that going?
Is that what it wasspecifically?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, how do you foster that, what you refer to
as psychological safety to havethese people, so you're
presenting them with yourfeedback as it comes in?
How do you foster anenvironment of psychological
safety so that these kind ofundiscovered people can feel
comfortable coming forward?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
You have to model it.
I do think that there should besome kind of policy, some kind
of culture whether informal orformal that shows them a
structure, that shows themguidelines and outline of.
You know you do have resources.
Here's how you can providefeedback, here's how you can ask
questions.
(13:48):
So I do think there needs to besome kind of understanding in
the culture, maybe somethingformal, about how to share ideas
, how to approach each other andso on and so forth.
But before any of that, beforeyou get to that, before you
bring people together to say,hey, can we create something
that has to do with innovationand feedback and sharing ideas,
(14:10):
you have to model it again dayone.
Show people that you're curiousenough to ask questions.
Show people that you are humbleenough to own your mistakes.
Show people that you are okaywith experimenting, that even
aside from a mistake, you triedsomething.
It didn't work out okay, that'sfine, we can move on to
(14:31):
something else.
Try something else.
Show them what that's supposedto look like.
It's not enough to say we wannabe an innovative culture.
We want to open up, to getfeedback from your knowledge of
years of experience.
Please, you know we're lookingto you to do this.
You have to demonstrate thatyou're authentic in terms of
(14:53):
you're walking that walk, you'renot just talking it, it's not
just talking points.
People can smell BS.
Do you know what I mean?
They know when it's just ascript, they know when it's just
an outline.
They know when it's kind ofjust a checkbox.
You don't wanna make peoplefeel like a checkbox and when I
(15:13):
work with leaders it is a lot ofself work.
I've had leaders ask me listenor tell me listen.
I don't wanna go through allthis.
All soft stuff, soft skills,all of that.
I just wanna know what I needto tell them so that they listen
to me.
But a lot of the work that I dowith coaches starts internally
like if you're not curious,genuinely curious, about your
(15:34):
organization and the peoplearound you, you have to get
there.
You have to figure out whyyou're not curious.
It's not just about the bottomline.
It's not just about the topline.
It's not just about share price.
Those are residual effects oftreating people the right way.
So you have to set that tonethat you care.
You know it sounds hokey, itsounds like soft skills and
(15:57):
during the pandemic all thesethings came to light.
But you have to be genuineabout showing people that you're
in it with them.
So my advice, when it comes tofostering the environment, is
not waiting for a formalannouncement that we're gonna
start an innovation lab or anidea lab or a feedback lab,
(16:19):
whatever it may be.
Model it from day one.
You know, be human, own yourhumanity, that we're all in this
together, that I can stumblelike you can stumble, that I'm
curious that I wanna know aboutyou, because that people will
model, they will act out, theywill emulate what they see
modeled for them.
The biggest, one of the biggesttakeaways for me for leadership
(16:42):
is what stands out most is whatpeople see in your example.
What stands out most is whatpeople see in your example.
So you can provide guidance,you can provide recommendations,
you can ask them to do things,but what stands out most is what
people see from you and in youfrom a distance.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
For me, that's one of the things that I've seen just
in my career.
I've had managers in the pastwhere, because the company
purchased a how to manage peopleout of the box solution from
some company some company thatdoes people management you have
these forced interactions whereyour manager's calling you up
(17:22):
and saying, hey, man, I justwanted to see, just check in how
you were doing, and you're like, oh okay, and you had this
conversation real quick and thenyou kind of quickly realized
that they're checking a box, yes, and that they truly don't care
at all.
And I think that, especiallywhen it comes to improving your
company or trying to get to apoint of innovation, or if you
(17:46):
get to a point where you'reready for it point, if you say,
hey, we're gonna open aninnovation lab or we're gonna do
XYZ, if you weren't genuinelycurious, you're not going to
care necessarily, you're justyou're gonna open a door and say
, hey, guys, here's the idea box, let me know what you think.
If you are genuinely curious,you're walking the floor, you're
outside, you're trying to findopportunities for improvement.
(18:08):
And I think you see that,especially in smaller businesses
, the businesses that areconstantly trying new things and
testing out new theories andhave that curiosity.
But there's a definitive linebetween genuine and forced.
And I think, if I'm aninnovator or if I'm sorry if I'm
a business owner or a leader,how do I have the mindset where
(18:31):
I am?
I'm curious about how to do it,but I don't know, kind of where
to foster that curiosity.
How do I?
Is that something I can improveor is it something I have to
just have?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I don't think it's something you just need to have,
that if you don't have it,you're a lost cause or anything
like that Cause.
What's killed me over the yearsis when I see leaders in
general act in certain ways andit's like, oh my God.
It's like there are countlessarticles, books, journals,
discussion boards, presentersthat are all talking about how
(19:06):
to approach leadership.
So how is this old schoolmentality of leadership where
it's kind of like they know whatthey need to do just follow me,
don't think, just do what I sayhow does that still exist?
So, hopefully, if they are evena good business person, you
(19:26):
have to consider what you don'tknow, even if you are a good
manager but not a good leader.
There's a difference betweenthose two.
One is more technical than theother.
Even if your naturalinclination isn't to gravitate
towards the soft stuff, thepeople stuff, that's fine,
that's absolutely fine.
But as a business person, youshould realize that the
(19:49):
workforce, the work, the economyis shifting in that direction.
It's moving away from thewidgets and the automation and
the factories of the 50s and 60sthat people are moving, their
companies are turning over staffmuch more than they used to
back then, that you're not gonnawork for a company for 30, 40,
(20:10):
50 years.
So my thing has always beeneven if you are naturally not
like that, understand it as abusiness step Cause I respect
somebody as long as they ask thequestions and follow through on
what they can do with myanswers.
I've thought myself and heardfrom other people that, listen,
(20:33):
they don't need to get it right,they don't need to get it
perfect, it doesn't have to comethrough in a beautifully neat
box that it's gonna work out,but at the very least the
acknowledgement, the questionsto ask.
I can see that they're learning, I can see that they're trying.
I know that's not their naturaldemeanor, but you can tell like
they're starting to understandor wanna know or to learn about
(20:55):
that people are important.
So my answer is even ifsomebody doesn't, naturally
isn't, isn't programmed in thatway to lead people in that way,
to be that curious, to be thatauthentic, even as a business
decision, ask the questions, dosomething with the questions,
(21:18):
get feedback, get surveys, startconversations.
To do any of that stuff youdon't need that heart, you don't
need that soft skill that isinformation collecting.
At the foundation of innovationis the collection of
information.
Mm-hmm, you know what I mean soyou don't have to be this
amazing leader that's soinspirational and whatnot, but
(21:38):
just ask the questions, even ifit does start off as a checkbox,
people will see that you aretrying and they will give you
some grace and they will giveyou some space, they will give
you some latitude.
But it's when you don't try atall, when it looks like you
don't care to learn that's whatturns other people off.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Yeah, and I think when you see leaders out there
that they're so quick to jumponto a software or jump into AI,
how can we use this AI thing?
There's a legitimate curiositythere, but they don't carry that
curiosity into theirorganization, into their people.
(22:18):
It only seems to happen whenyou get these moments where what
you kind of view is, somethingI don't fully understand, pops
up.
But it seems like you can do somany things, and I always talk
about both marketing andmarketing and graphic design.
Oftentimes when you have thesepeople in your organization,
some of your marketing peoplehave brilliant, brilliant ideas,
(22:40):
but marketing tends to beviewed as a little bit of black
magic.
I'm not really sure what goeson in that room.
They just kind of come out withpretty stuff.
And when you look at that andyou see these opportunities to
let your marketing departmentreally flourish, you get
companies like Big Ass Vans andcompanies like Apple, where
(23:00):
their marketing packages are sointeresting and engaging, and
their leaders in the clubhouseas far as how they market
themselves.
And it's because you've giventhese people this autonomy to
tinker and to explore and we didan entire episode specifically
on giving 10 to 15% of time openand available for people to
(23:24):
pursue their passions on timeand to just try and think of
something new.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I don't have the numbers of the amount of
products that came out of 3M,but I think most of their best
known innovations I think eventhe Post-it note came out of
something like that.
Oh yeah, look into it.
I read an article maybe it waslike in the Harvard Business
Review or somewhere else where3M I'll have to look it up and
(23:51):
send it to you, john, but 3M isa beautiful, perfect example of
that, where they let people workon their side projects, their
pet projects, for whatever itwas, 15% of their time, 20% of
the time a certain day of theweek, and one of the innovations
that came out of there thebiggest moneymaker, one of their
biggest moneymakers.
That's where Post-its came outof, because they allowed people
(24:13):
to tap into what they werepassionate about using the
resources of the company, andthat's one of the best things
that they're known for now.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, that's actually .
His name is Spencer Silver.
That's actually the episode I'mreferring to and at the time of
this recording it hasn't beenlaunched yet, so you didn't know
it happened, but it's.
But, yeah, so his name isSpencer Silver and he was in 3M
offers 15% of their time withthe use to call it was
authorized bootlegging I thinkit was the or a permanent
(24:43):
bootlegging was the terminologythey came up with and it's in
their formal policies that 15%of your time can be used for
these pet projects.
And Sterling Silver was tryingto create this super adhesive
and he accidentally made areusable kind of tacky material
and he spent five years runningaround trying to sell this idea.
(25:09):
I mean, you wanna talk about 3Moffers, this policy, but you
wanna talk about the nextquestion we're about to lead
into is you've got somebody whocame up with something and he
had to pedal it around thebuilding for five years to give
you your most profitable projectand it's you're looking at a
material that nobody saw itsapplication.
(25:31):
He's running around trying toget anybody to buy in and he
easily could have given up, butbecause you offer him this 15%
of time to to dedicate towardshis own pet projects, he is so
invested in this beingsuccessful, because this happy
accident is interesting anduseful and I will make it
something.
I just don't know what it'sgonna be.
And so, offering that time,offering that mentality of when
(25:57):
can we innovate, when can wepromote this psychological
safety?
Right, this guy had thepsychological safety to come up
with something and then to runaround trying to sell it for
five years, pitching it to everydepartment, and so if you're an
organization, how do you knowwhen it's time to consider
innovation and when it's time tojust kind of let things be?
Speaker 2 (26:19):
There is no, there is no formula for that.
You just can't know, you can'tsay.
You can pay attention to things, you can take the pulse of the
organization, make sure you'relistening, keep your ear to the
ground.
But what comes up for me isjust that permission.
(26:41):
And I don't say I don't like tosay or use the word failure
just because for me it's, it'ssuch a bad, it's not the
sugarcoat, anything, but I thinkfailures that word scares us
away from things not working out.
That's all it is.
Something didn't work out.
We need to try again in adifferent way, but in terms of
(27:02):
considering innovation and justkind of pivoting if it doesn't
work.
It all depends on the needs ofthe organization and you need
leaders, managers, that kind ofhave that vision.
They're paying attention to theindustry, they're paying
attention to the customer,they're listening to what's
going on outside of their littleworld, of what they're
producing today.
(27:22):
You know you can go old-schoolfolks focus groups like what are
people looking for, but I thinkas long as they keep that door
open for experimentation, forlistening, I think that the the
3m example, where they had thosehours on a regular basis to
pursue their pet projects,they're bootlegging as you will.
That just shows that people canbe open to what's going on.
(27:47):
But I think they do have totake the temperature of the
external competition customers.
What are they looking for?
Internal brainstorming, whatkind of ideas are we looking for
?
Being realistic about theprojects that are in the
pipeline of Innovation are theyreally going anywhere?
And that depends on, again,each company is different.
(28:08):
But the metrics like how muchtime, how much resources do we
have?
Do we need to take on a partnerto do this?
Is this worth pursuing?
You have to have those regularcheck-ins, much like I talked
about performance evaluationsand the drawback of having them
once a year, once a quarter,once every six months, every
every so often you need to checkin.
(28:29):
And again, you have to have thatpsychological safety,
especially where there might besomebody who thinks there's a
red flag here.
I know why this is not going towork, but I don't want to be
the bummer, I don't want tothrow the wrench into the system
, but you have to have thatpsychological safety, because
Often time was what I found ispeople have good arguments for
(28:50):
why things shouldn't be the waythat they are, why they should
change, and then when you askthem why didn't you say
something?
They said, oh, it's not myplace.
So I think, depending on thecompany, depending on the
culture, if you open up thatpsychological safety and let
people come forward, I thinkthat is that will get you the
best indication of whether youkeep pursuing innovation or you
(29:13):
just go in a different directionand let things be.
But you have to keep that openbecause people on the front
lines of any company they'retapped into a vein of knowledge
that most people are not.
They can tell you from theget-go when things may go
because of that experience onthe front line, because they're
out there getting their handsdirty, whether it's a manual job
(29:34):
, whether it's a service,whether it's intellectual
property.
So again, it's constantlistening and it's going to be
different for every environment.
But the constant listening andreally Heating the warnings and
being authentic about it, it'sokay.
If you guys come forward andshare with us your ideas.
No one's going to get penalized, no one's going to be looked
(29:55):
down upon.
That keeps your, yourself-awareness as an
organization, at a high point,so that you know what's coming
and what you need to shift andpivot.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yeah, and I think there's so much value there,
right?
So a lot of times, as abusiness owner, as leader,
you're so dialed into the peopleand how that operates and
trying to keep the ship moving,you don't have necessarily the,
the lens that's that themechanic use things through and
so, no matter how hard you try,no matter how observant you are,
(30:28):
you're simply not going to havethat experience and you, you're
just never going to know that,hey, if that pressure gauge gets
Just over here, it's going totrigger that one which is going
to trigger the alarm.
And so, knowing, knowing how toLean that information, that
experience and get the relevantdata For moving forward from
(30:49):
those people, because I knowoftentimes, especially in the
trades, right so welders arekind of famously just leave me
alone guys, they, they're reallygood at what they do.
Let me be, I don't want to talkto anybody, I don't want to
participate, I want to weld andthen go home In my you know, in
my truck and just have a youknow, have an evening with my
family.
But Knowing what they know andknowing how to get that
(31:12):
information from them and havethem feel valuable, and giving
that information, want to getthat information, can be every
bit as important as anythingelse in that company.
A lot of people in thosepositions You're you know your
people in the warehouse, you'reyou're lower level sales team,
you're you know your tradesmenthere's this idea of, like you
said this that's not my place,that's not my role, that's not,
(31:33):
you know, I'm not, I'm not inthe big office with the big guys
, right, but at the end of theday, but I mean, brad Pitt was
an extra at one point, hmm,right, so so knowing that I have
something to offer and there'svalue there, feeling comfortable
coming forward and talkingabout it.
You'll always have those peoplewho are, who are in that role,
(31:55):
that have massive ambition andwill get there one way or
another.
But how do you find that personwhen they're?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
when they're not, they don't want to push through
yeah, yeah, like even that's agreat example welders, so many
professions have, so manyprofessions have like a
stereotypical Psychologicalprofile.
So people that are blue collaryou picture and I come from a
(32:25):
blue collar background, myparents were blue collar workers
that generation was just kindof like you put your nose down,
you work until it's time to comeup for lunch or your break, or
you go home and you literallypunch out.
So those are very deep.
They're very traditionalpositions where, yeah, they you
know for centuries in some casesand now for decades and other
(32:47):
new professions, they haven'tbeen asked what are you thinking
?
What are your thoughts?
How does this look to you?
Is this possible?
So that's where thatreassurance and a new leader can
set an amazing tone.
From day one, you take a groupof people.
You have five different leaders.
(33:08):
Those five different leadersare gonna get five very
different results, for the mostpart from a set group of people.
If you had them, lead themright.
So if you bring in a new leader, if a new leader comes in, it's
like you have to set that tonefrom the get-go, because even if
you go up to somebody saythey're welding, and you wait
for them to stop and you go upto them and you're like, hey,
what's going on?
(33:28):
I'm John, I'm the new leaderhere, new manager here, new
supervisor, whatever it may bejust want to get your thoughts
on a couple of things.
Like for me, if I'm a bluecollar worker and my tools are
the machine, or I design stuff,if I haven't seen somebody come
up to me let's talkstereotypical in a suit, in a
(33:48):
white shirt, in a tie, and nowhe or she is asking me what I
think, what's going on?
Am I being set up?
Are they downsizing?
Are they preparing for layoffs?
And they're asking questions tosee where they seek those
efficiencies.
So that's where thatquestioning, that's where that
curiosity, that's where thatreassurance, constant
(34:09):
reassurance.
It's not that you have to beout there every day, but
whatever you're sharing,whatever you're asking, be
intentional about it, beauthentic about it, because all
it takes is one misstep to losesomebody's trust.
So it does take a lot more tobuild it up, but take those
steps.
So you want to open it up, butyou want to demonstrate hey,
(34:32):
this is for real.
Again, this isn't a checkbox,this isn't a gotcha moment, this
isn't a test or a quiz.
I think we're all in thistogether.
I think we have the resourcesin this building per se right to
get these things off the ground, to start new things, to do
great work.
But it takes whoever'scomfortable to step up and
listen.
There are people that just goto work for a paycheck.
(34:55):
I've been in those kind ofsituations where it's like I've
tried something, it's notworking, so I'm just going to be
here and collect my paycheck.
You just have to figure out whowants to be there.
You don't have to force thosepeople.
There's going to be peopleagain.
They just want to provide forthemselves or their family.
That's all they're there for.
But I think for every personthat is like that, you'll
(35:15):
probably have two or three thathave great ideas that do want to
step up, maybe in their own way.
They don't want to be in thelimelight or any of that stuff,
but they're willing to sharetheir ideas.
Because sharing who we are, howwe can contribute to our tribe
that's in our DNA, that's whatwe're built, that's our
primitive mind is about beingwith a group, demonstrating who
(35:38):
we are in our DNA so that we'renot left out in the dust.
So most people are going towant to contribute.
They just need that permission.
They need that modeling thatthey're in the right environment
that's going to allow them todo that.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
I love that and I think that that could even be a
really good test of how wellyou're doing on the
psychological safety front is asa leader.
Walk around, just see howsurprised people are to see you.
Go talk to some of those peoplethat you don't normally
interact with and see how theyreact to your presence, and if
you feel like the whole exchangeis uncomfortable, maybe the
(36:15):
psychological safety isn't whereit should be.
So, as we wrap up here, john,what advice would you give to
leaders and business ownersFinal note as to what you would
tell them as far as fostering anenvironment for innovation,
start listening, start modelingthat it's safe to speak your
(36:37):
mind, to own your mistakes, tobe human.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I mean coming out of the pandemic.
People realize they don't wanttransactional jobs.
They want things that havemeaning.
We'll see where everythingsettles, but I don't think
that's going to go away, thatrealization that they want to do
meaningful work.
When people are doingmeaningful work, when you do
something that you care about,you will put as much as you have
into it.
But if you go to your work,your job and everything seems
(37:04):
transactional, like it's justmeans to an end and that's it,
people will shut down.
So I would say to any leader becurious as soon as possible, be
authentic.
If it's not your cup of tea, ifit's not your jam to tap into
the soft skills not everybody'sbuilt the same way, not
everybody's programmed the sameway Understand, look for the
(37:27):
studies that say I don't havethem here to cite.
Look for the studies that showyou that soft skills, emotional
intelligence, all these othernot soft skills I say soft
skills because that's whatpeople understand them to be
it's human skills.
Look into these studies thatshow you that these human skills
ripple into the bottom and thetop line.
(37:49):
So even if you're just businessoriented, there's nothing wrong
with that.
But recognize that this is goodfor business to open up, to
provide psychological safety.
That gets you better ideas,that gets you better innovation.
Before you go outside of yourcompany, tap into who you have
around you, but just listen towhat you have and recognize
(38:10):
those resources.
They're at your fingertips.
So how much are you tappinginto what people can and want to
provide?
Speaker 1 (38:18):
I love that.
I'll call that the Tom Bradymentality.
You've Tom Brady, who somehowmanaged just to be so connected
to even the youngest members ofthe team, and then you've got
people like Aaron Rodgers andMatt Stafford who just talk
about how impossible it is totalk to these young kids.
I don't even know what they'redoing.
I don't know what they'resaying.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, I think leaders need to understand in general,
how much better are you leavingpeople than you found them?
How many leaders are youcreating?
Your job for me, in my eyes, isto make more leaders.
How are you empowering people?
How are you building uppeople's confidence?
Again, even if you're not humanskills minded and your natural
(39:02):
step isn't to think this way,this is all good for the bottom
line.
This is all good for innovation.
This is all good for the topline.
This is all good for reputationof the organization.
People talk on social media.
They know which companies aredoing what.
They know which companies arenot only producing products, but
the cultures at those companies.
(39:22):
This all gets out.
So, again, even if your heartisn't in it from the get go, you
can get there.
But understand that it's asound business decision to look
at the power of leadership andleading others when you want to
get to that innovation.
It's just, it's undeniable andI don't think it's going to go
back to what it was before.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
I agree, all right, well, john, thank you so much
for joining us today.
Our next conversation, the nexttime we meet, we'll be talking
about finding those hiddeninnovators and how do we get to
them.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Absolutely buddy.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
My pleasure, thank you.
Hello and welcome back to the Inhibit Everything
podcast.
I'm your host, john Mode, andover the next two weeks we're
gonna be unpacking how to findand negotiate the waters of
bringing innovation into yourorganization.
John Jeremilo is the founderleadership performance coach and
consultant at CoachedOut LLC.
In that capacity, he helps hisclients throughout
(00:21):
organizational hierarchy breakthrough to their next level of
leadership, performance andeffectiveness.
Clients realize just how muchmore of their abilities,
experience and goals they canbring to the table.
His professional experience inthe public, private profit and
nonprofit sectors allow him totransfer his lessons across
business industries,organizational structures and
(00:43):
leadership needs, while workingwith anyone from students to
seasoned executives.
In addition to coaching, heenjoys writing both blogging and
co-authoring various books, andpresenting and speaking on
leadership.
His signature talks includedesign your leadership nine ways
to sharpen your leadershipbrand in the everyday, and
platinum networking designing aunique experience for others in
(01:05):
a world of disconnection.
He hosts two podcasts the bookleads impactful books for life
and leadership, and the mindsettalks life beyond the checkboxes
.
You can find him atcoachedoutcom I have personally
listened to almost weekly.
The book leads impactful booksfor life and leadership, and I
(01:26):
can tell you that John is anincredible interviewer.
So I'm actually kind of excitedto flip this into making him
the interviewer interview E,because he has gained so much
knowledge from some fantasticguests he's had on that podcast
that I just wanna kind of unpackwhat he has gained from all
(01:48):
that and give him theopportunity to speak, because I
learned something new everysingle time that he and I talk.
What we're talking about todayis you're a business owner or
you are a an entrepreneur or aleader in your organization and
you really want to do thisbuzzword that everyone calls
(02:08):
innovation.
You've got this idea in yourhead that you want to take the
next step as a company or as anorganization, or, if you're in a
you know, a bit of a financialdownturn as an organization, you
want to improve it.
And how do we improve thatorganization?
How do we use this thing calledinnovation?
And I feel like a lot of times,innovation can be used as a
(02:30):
buzzword.
And so there's this idea thatyou are innovating, and what
does that mean?
Am I just incorporatingtechnology?
What exactly am I doing?
But I think before we jump intoinnovation, we need to set the
stage for innovation, get yourcompany ready to do so, and so,
(02:50):
as I said before, I'm joined byJohn Jermelo, and John is a
phenomenal mind and leadership,and I wanted to kind of open the
door to how do we set the stagefor innovation.
So, good morning, john.
How are?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
you.
Hey man, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I'm doing well, so all right, john.
So if you're a leader in anorganization or you're coaching
a leader in an organization, howdo you set the stage for
innovation and prepare yourbusiness to accept innovative
ideas?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I think from McGecko, you don't even need to be in or
be aware that you're in aninnovative arena, that you need
innovation.
Okay, so we're talkinginnovation, but set that aside
for a second.
I think any leader going intoany arena, any place, any team,
whatever it may be, I think theyneed to set the stage for
(03:43):
collecting ideas, getting whatthey can from the people around
them.
I think the problem with a lotof leaders is they come into a
new space, a new team, and maybethey figure okay, I was brought
in for a reason.
Let me just keep doing what Iwas doing with this other group
over here.
But you have to customize yourapproach.
You have to customize it towhoever you're dealing with now.
(04:04):
You have to learn that teamwhat it is.
They need to get the best outof them.
So, when it comes to innovation, that plays into it, because we
want those ideas to comeforward.
So you have to set that stageby opening up that transparency,
by getting that environmentopen, by being one where people
feel comfortable.
They have that psychologicalsafety to open up and talk about
(04:27):
what they're thinking, whatproblems they have.
I think a lot of leaders justlook forward and outward Forward
in the mission, outward of theorganization, outward to the
stakeholders, outward to theirbosses, but they don't really
focus on the resources that theyhave internally within their
team.
So innovative mindsets need tostart day one.
(04:48):
Don't wait until you needsomething down the road.
Don't wait until you have toinnovate as soon as you can
start.
It should have been 20 days ago.
It should have been 20 monthsago.
It should be at the very leasttoday.
Get that environment open toget people talking.
So you wanna have thattransparency, you wanna have
that curiosity, you wanna havethat respect for what people are
(05:08):
bringing to the table.
What I've noticed with companiesis they'll you know you have
people coming out of college,you have people coming out of
their previous profession.
Their role, say, theirabilities are at 100, right,
100%.
Most job descriptions aren'tgonna tap into 100% of what that
person can provide.
So they're asking you to bringyour limited scope of abilities
(05:33):
to the table.
So they'll probably only askyou for maybe 50, 60%.
You know you're 100% of abilityand then the job description
says well, we only need like 50,55, 60% of that, right.
You kind of hold back just tofit in just enough to this job
description and think about thatextra 40%.
You know and now I'm making upnumbers here but there's so much
(05:56):
that companies leave on thetable by not tapping into from
day one who the people aroundthem are, what they can do for
the company and what they canbring to the table.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
So I love the thought of that external candidate
because so what I hear all thetime, especially with businesses
, is I wanna bring in somebodyfrom the outside who's got a
different point of view andthey've got different experience
.
They can incorporate that intothe organization.
But there's two pieces to thatin my mind and I want to get
(06:29):
your opinion on this.
One is why are organizations sofocused on external when it
comes to bringing in someone newwith fresh ideas, instead of
fostering an environment wherethey can test the waters of the
ideas first with their currentbase?
Because, to your point, ifyou've got somebody operating at
(06:51):
50%, that's got another 50% tooffer.
Why don't we tap into thatperson and find their potential
first before we start bringingexternal candidates?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, it's a matter of companies.
It's this mindset where theylook outside for solutions.
Again, there's that poorleadership idea that, excuse me,
whatever I see today iseverything that can be produced.
What people are showing me isall that can be produced.
There's no more to squeeze outof this, so I'm going to have to
(07:25):
go outside to get new ideas,because most leaders are.
A pitfall of leadership is thatthey look at okay, we're going
to grow incrementally, so I gotto work with what I see and this
is what people are showing me,or people should know that they
should bring me ideas.
Again, you have to open up thatdialogue, that conversation.
(07:45):
For the most part, I meanthat's traditional thinking.
If I haven't seen it, if Ihaven't seen even a hint of
innovation in my workplace ornew ideas, my people are letting
me down that way.
That's why I have to go outsideto a consultant or whoever it
may be, or partner up withanother company or another
entrepreneur or another startup,whatever it may be, which is
(08:08):
fine, it's completely fine.
You are going to get to thatpoint where you do need to go
outside, but you should makesure that happens after really
tapping into and asking aboutand being curious about the
people that are in yourorganization and getting and I'm
not saying bleed them dry, likepick their brain, like push
them to 100%, but how much morecan they give, how much more do
(08:31):
they want to share?
Have you asked them?
Everybody's very different.
They come from very differentbackgrounds, experiences,
education or not, theirprofessions that they've worked
in, fields they've worked in.
Everybody's so different.
But have you done enough tolook at the resources you have
in front of you?
Are you making frontlinechanges?
(08:53):
If you're in a warehouse, ifyou're in a factory, are you
making changes to the automationwithout picking the brain of
the people that are on thatfrontline doing the work, seeing
what's working, seeing what'snot working?
I worked with a company thatfrom year to year they had a
similar process.
This is financial company.
They had a similar process Eachyear.
(09:15):
When that season was over, theywouldn't go back and debrief
what worked, what didn't.
So when the next cycle camearound, they made changes.
Management made changes to thesystem that was being used,
without even asking thefrontline workers.
Hey, what do you think?
So changes can be incrementalby asking people around you.
They don't have to besubstantial, they don't have to
(09:36):
be big, but just start by who isin your shop, who's in your
company, your division, yourteam.
Please think about it as awasted resource.
If you're not asking thequestion, what do I have at my
disposal, before reaching outfor help in any other capacity?
There's nothing wrong with thatComplimenting the resources of
(09:58):
your group, team, organization,but at the very least try to
understand first what you havewithin your reach.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
And I love the thought of looking into what you
have.
And one of the things that Igot actually from your share of
the book leads is, I want to sayit was on the episodes in late
50s I don't remember if it wasAtlas or somebody else, but they
brought up that instead oftelling people, having people
come to you and say this is whatI've done this month, tell them
(10:29):
what you've seen them do.
And I think if you're going tosomeone on your team and you're
saying, hey, listen, this iswhat I see of you, I think you
have something to offer here topush us forward.
I think you're approaching themin a manner that makes them
feel more valued and that you'veseen something in them, as
(10:50):
opposed to just saying, hey,what do you guys have?
And that kind of leads into.
The other question that we wantto cover is so how do you
foster that environment ofpsychological safety, taking
undiscovered innovators in yourorganization, having them feel
comfortable to bring their ideasforward?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And I love that point that you brought up about
Atlas's episode.
It was his because it juststands out, he was in the
military.
And just that switch of mindsetfrom waiting for them to bring
it to you to bringing it to them, whether it's expectations,
whether it's praise, whetherit's acknowledgement that's a
great point is to be proactivein praising, in acknowledging.
(11:33):
And what's great about whatAtlas said was you're not
waiting until a performanceevaluation to tell somebody what
you've seen, whether it's goodor whether it's bad.
You're not waiting once a yearor twice a year to tell them
where they stand.
You're constantly letting themknow I've seen what you've done,
(11:55):
I appreciate it, whether it'sone-on-one, you're talking with
them if you know their style orpraise in front of your group or
team, or whether it's askingthem to come in and having a
conversation about what elsethey might need and resources.
You've noticed certain things.
You've noticed maybe things areoff.
If there's anything that youcan do, so it's being proactive.
(12:15):
It's not waiting until you needto react and say, okay, here's
your performance evaluation,here's what you did wrong in the
last 12 months.
You did great in the last 12months.
You want to get into that cycleof constant, ongoing not
constant, but ongoing Every sooften just checking in with
(12:36):
people and making sure that theyhave what they need, that
they're performing how they wantto perform, that you're both
seeing it the same way.
So that was a great point byhim to just come in and say, hey
, this is what I'm seeing, andthen going from there.
Obviously, they can bring toyou whatever they need at any
moment.
But be proactive.
Don't just wait until somethingcomes up or there's a meeting
(12:57):
or there's an evaluation to givethat praise and that feedback.
Now, in terms of your otherquestion, I believe, john, was
how do you foster that?
How do you get that going?
Is that what it wasspecifically?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, how do you foster that, what you refer to
as psychological safety to havethese people, so you're
presenting them with yourfeedback as it comes in?
How do you foster anenvironment of psychological
safety so that these kind ofundiscovered people can feel
comfortable coming forward?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
You have to model it.
I do think that there should besome kind of policy, some kind
of culture whether informal orformal that shows them a
structure, that shows themguidelines and outline of.
You know you do have resources.
Here's how you can providefeedback, here's how you can ask
questions.
(13:48):
So I do think there needs to besome kind of understanding in
the culture, maybe somethingformal, about how to share ideas
, how to approach each other andso on and so forth.
But before any of that, beforeyou get to that, before you
bring people together to say,hey, can we create something
that has to do with innovationand feedback and sharing ideas,
(14:10):
you have to model it again dayone.
Show people that you're curiousenough to ask questions.
Show people that you are humbleenough to own your mistakes.
Show people that you are okaywith experimenting, that even
aside from a mistake, you triedsomething.
It didn't work out okay, that'sfine, we can move on to
(14:31):
something else.
Try something else.
Show them what that's supposedto look like.
It's not enough to say we wannabe an innovative culture.
We want to open up, to getfeedback from your knowledge of
years of experience.
Please, you know we're lookingto you to do this.
You have to demonstrate thatyou're authentic in terms of
(14:53):
you're walking that walk, you'renot just talking it, it's not
just talking points.
People can smell BS.
Do you know what I mean?
They know when it's just ascript, they know when it's just
an outline.
They know when it's kind ofjust a checkbox.
You don't wanna make peoplefeel like a checkbox and when I
(15:13):
work with leaders it is a lot ofself work.
I've had leaders ask me listenor tell me listen.
I don't wanna go through allthis.
All soft stuff, soft skills,all of that.
I just wanna know what I needto tell them so that they listen
to me.
But a lot of the work that I dowith coaches starts internally
like if you're not curious,genuinely curious, about your
(15:34):
organization and the peoplearound you, you have to get
there.
You have to figure out whyyou're not curious.
It's not just about the bottomline.
It's not just about the topline.
It's not just about share price.
Those are residual effects oftreating people the right way.
So you have to set that tonethat you care.
You know it sounds hokey, itsounds like soft skills and
(15:57):
during the pandemic all thesethings came to light.
But you have to be genuineabout showing people that you're
in it with them.
So my advice, when it comes tofostering the environment, is
not waiting for a formalannouncement that we're gonna
start an innovation lab or anidea lab or a feedback lab,
(16:19):
whatever it may be.
Model it from day one.
You know, be human, own yourhumanity, that we're all in this
together, that I can stumblelike you can stumble, that I'm
curious that I wanna know aboutyou, because that people will
model, they will act out, theywill emulate what they see
modeled for them.
The biggest, one of the biggesttakeaways for me for leadership
(16:42):
is what stands out most is whatpeople see in your example.
What stands out most is whatpeople see in your example.
So you can provide guidance,you can provide recommendations,
you can ask them to do things,but what stands out most is what
people see from you and in youfrom a distance.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
For me, that's one of the things that I've seen just
in my career.
I've had managers in the pastwhere, because the company
purchased a how to manage peopleout of the box solution from
some company some company thatdoes people management you have
these forced interactions whereyour manager's calling you up
(17:22):
and saying, hey, man, I justwanted to see, just check in how
you were doing, and you're like, oh okay, and you had this
conversation real quick and thenyou kind of quickly realized
that they're checking a box, yes, and that they truly don't care
at all.
And I think that, especiallywhen it comes to improving your
company or trying to get to apoint of innovation, or if you
(17:46):
get to a point where you'reready for it point, if you say,
hey, we're gonna open aninnovation lab or we're gonna do
XYZ, if you weren't genuinelycurious, you're not going to
care necessarily, you're justyou're gonna open a door and say
, hey, guys, here's the idea box, let me know what you think.
If you are genuinely curious,you're walking the floor, you're
outside, you're trying to findopportunities for improvement.
(18:08):
And I think you see that,especially in smaller businesses
, the businesses that areconstantly trying new things and
testing out new theories andhave that curiosity.
But there's a definitive linebetween genuine and forced.
And I think, if I'm aninnovator or if I'm sorry if I'm
a business owner or a leader,how do I have the mindset where
(18:31):
I am?
I'm curious about how to do it,but I don't know, kind of where
to foster that curiosity.
How do I?
Is that something I can improveor is it something I have to
just have?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I don't think it's something you just need to have,
that if you don't have it,you're a lost cause or anything
like that Cause.
What's killed me over the yearsis when I see leaders in
general act in certain ways andit's like, oh my God.
It's like there are countlessarticles, books, journals,
discussion boards, presentersthat are all talking about how
(19:06):
to approach leadership.
So how is this old schoolmentality of leadership where
it's kind of like they know whatthey need to do just follow me,
don't think, just do what I sayhow does that still exist?
So, hopefully, if they are evena good business person, you
(19:26):
have to consider what you don'tknow, even if you are a good
manager but not a good leader.
There's a difference betweenthose two.
One is more technical than theother.
Even if your naturalinclination isn't to gravitate
towards the soft stuff, thepeople stuff, that's fine,
that's absolutely fine.
But as a business person, youshould realize that the
(19:49):
workforce, the work, the economyis shifting in that direction.
It's moving away from thewidgets and the automation and
the factories of the 50s and 60sthat people are moving, their
companies are turning over staffmuch more than they used to
back then, that you're not gonnawork for a company for 30, 40,
(20:10):
50 years.
So my thing has always beeneven if you are naturally not
like that, understand it as abusiness step Cause I respect
somebody as long as they ask thequestions and follow through on
what they can do with myanswers.
I've thought myself and heardfrom other people that, listen,
(20:33):
they don't need to get it right,they don't need to get it
perfect, it doesn't have to comethrough in a beautifully neat
box that it's gonna work out,but at the very least the
acknowledgement, the questionsto ask.
I can see that they're learning, I can see that they're trying.
I know that's not their naturaldemeanor, but you can tell like
they're starting to understandor wanna know or to learn about
(20:55):
that people are important.
So my answer is even ifsomebody doesn't, naturally
isn't, isn't programmed in thatway to lead people in that way,
to be that curious, to be thatauthentic, even as a business
decision, ask the questions, dosomething with the questions,
(21:18):
get feedback, get surveys, startconversations.
To do any of that stuff youdon't need that heart, you don't
need that soft skill that isinformation collecting.
At the foundation of innovationis the collection of
information.
Mm-hmm, you know what I mean soyou don't have to be this
amazing leader that's soinspirational and whatnot, but
(21:38):
just ask the questions, even ifit does start off as a checkbox,
people will see that you aretrying and they will give you
some grace and they will giveyou some space, they will give
you some latitude.
But it's when you don't try atall, when it looks like you
don't care to learn that's whatturns other people off.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Yeah, and I think when you see leaders out there
that they're so quick to jumponto a software or jump into AI,
how can we use this AI thing?
There's a legitimate curiositythere, but they don't carry that
curiosity into theirorganization, into their people.
(22:18):
It only seems to happen whenyou get these moments where what
you kind of view is, somethingI don't fully understand, pops
up.
But it seems like you can do somany things, and I always talk
about both marketing andmarketing and graphic design.
Oftentimes when you have thesepeople in your organization,
some of your marketing peoplehave brilliant, brilliant ideas,
(22:40):
but marketing tends to beviewed as a little bit of black
magic.
I'm not really sure what goeson in that room.
They just kind of come out withpretty stuff.
And when you look at that andyou see these opportunities to
let your marketing departmentreally flourish, you get
companies like Big Ass Vans andcompanies like Apple, where
(23:00):
their marketing packages are sointeresting and engaging, and
their leaders in the clubhouseas far as how they market
themselves.
And it's because you've giventhese people this autonomy to
tinker and to explore and we didan entire episode specifically
on giving 10 to 15% of time openand available for people to
(23:24):
pursue their passions on timeand to just try and think of
something new.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I don't have the numbers of the amount of
products that came out of 3M,but I think most of their best
known innovations I think eventhe Post-it note came out of
something like that.
Oh yeah, look into it.
I read an article maybe it waslike in the Harvard Business
Review or somewhere else where3M I'll have to look it up and
(23:51):
send it to you, john, but 3M isa beautiful, perfect example of
that, where they let people workon their side projects, their
pet projects, for whatever itwas, 15% of their time, 20% of
the time a certain day of theweek, and one of the innovations
that came out of there thebiggest moneymaker, one of their
biggest moneymakers.
That's where Post-its came outof, because they allowed people
(24:13):
to tap into what they werepassionate about using the
resources of the company, andthat's one of the best things
that they're known for now.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, that's actually .
His name is Spencer Silver.
That's actually the episode I'mreferring to and at the time of
this recording it hasn't beenlaunched yet, so you didn't know
it happened, but it's.
But, yeah, so his name isSpencer Silver and he was in 3M
offers 15% of their time withthe use to call it was
authorized bootlegging I thinkit was the or a permanent
(24:43):
bootlegging was the terminologythey came up with and it's in
their formal policies that 15%of your time can be used for
these pet projects.
And Sterling Silver was tryingto create this super adhesive
and he accidentally made areusable kind of tacky material
and he spent five years runningaround trying to sell this idea.
(25:09):
I mean, you wanna talk about 3Moffers, this policy, but you
wanna talk about the nextquestion we're about to lead
into is you've got somebody whocame up with something and he
had to pedal it around thebuilding for five years to give
you your most profitable projectand it's you're looking at a
material that nobody saw itsapplication.
(25:31):
He's running around trying toget anybody to buy in and he
easily could have given up, butbecause you offer him this 15%
of time to to dedicate towardshis own pet projects, he is so
invested in this beingsuccessful, because this happy
accident is interesting anduseful and I will make it
something.
I just don't know what it'sgonna be.
And so, offering that time,offering that mentality of when
(25:57):
can we innovate, when can wepromote this psychological
safety?
Right, this guy had thepsychological safety to come up
with something and then to runaround trying to sell it for
five years, pitching it to everydepartment, and so if you're an
organization, how do you knowwhen it's time to consider
innovation and when it's time tojust kind of let things be?
Speaker 2 (26:19):
There is no, there is no formula for that.
You just can't know, you can'tsay.
You can pay attention to things, you can take the pulse of the
organization, make sure you'relistening, keep your ear to the
ground.
But what comes up for me isjust that permission.
(26:41):
And I don't say I don't like tosay or use the word failure
just because for me it's, it'ssuch a bad, it's not the
sugarcoat, anything, but I thinkfailures that word scares us
away from things not working out.
That's all it is.
Something didn't work out.
We need to try again in adifferent way, but in terms of
(27:02):
considering innovation and justkind of pivoting if it doesn't
work.
It all depends on the needs ofthe organization and you need
leaders, managers, that kind ofhave that vision.
They're paying attention to theindustry, they're paying
attention to the customer,they're listening to what's
going on outside of their littleworld, of what they're
producing today.
(27:22):
You know you can go old-schoolfolks focus groups like what are
people looking for, but I thinkas long as they keep that door
open for experimentation, forlistening, I think that the the
3m example, where they had thosehours on a regular basis to
pursue their pet projects,they're bootlegging as you will.
That just shows that people canbe open to what's going on.
(27:47):
But I think they do have totake the temperature of the
external competition customers.
What are they looking for?
Internal brainstorming, whatkind of ideas are we looking for
?
Being realistic about theprojects that are in the
pipeline of Innovation are theyreally going anywhere?
And that depends on, again,each company is different.
(28:08):
But the metrics like how muchtime, how much resources do we
have?
Do we need to take on a partnerto do this?
Is this worth pursuing?
You have to have those regularcheck-ins, much like I talked
about performance evaluationsand the drawback of having them
once a year, once a quarter,once every six months, every
every so often you need to checkin.
(28:29):
And again, you have to have thatpsychological safety,
especially where there might besomebody who thinks there's a
red flag here.
I know why this is not going towork, but I don't want to be
the bummer, I don't want tothrow the wrench into the system
, but you have to have thatpsychological safety, because
Often time was what I found ispeople have good arguments for
(28:50):
why things shouldn't be the waythat they are, why they should
change, and then when you askthem why didn't you say
something?
They said, oh, it's not myplace.
So I think, depending on thecompany, depending on the
culture, if you open up thatpsychological safety and let
people come forward, I thinkthat is that will get you the
best indication of whether youkeep pursuing innovation or you
(29:13):
just go in a different directionand let things be.
But you have to keep that openbecause people on the front
lines of any company they'retapped into a vein of knowledge
that most people are not.
They can tell you from theget-go when things may go
because of that experience onthe front line, because they're
out there getting their handsdirty, whether it's a manual job
(29:34):
, whether it's a service,whether it's intellectual
property.
So again, it's constantlistening and it's going to be
different for every environment.
But the constant listening andreally Heating the warnings and
being authentic about it, it'sokay.
If you guys come forward andshare with us your ideas.
No one's going to get penalized, no one's going to be looked
(29:55):
down upon.
That keeps your, yourself-awareness as an
organization, at a high point,so that you know what's coming
and what you need to shift andpivot.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yeah, and I think there's so much value there,
right?
So a lot of times, as abusiness owner, as leader,
you're so dialed into the peopleand how that operates and
trying to keep the ship moving,you don't have necessarily the,
the lens that's that themechanic use things through and
so, no matter how hard you try,no matter how observant you are,
(30:28):
you're simply not going to havethat experience and you, you're
just never going to know that,hey, if that pressure gauge gets
Just over here, it's going totrigger that one which is going
to trigger the alarm.
And so, knowing, knowing how toLean that information, that
experience and get the relevantdata For moving forward from
(30:49):
those people, because I knowoftentimes, especially in the
trades, right so welders arekind of famously just leave me
alone guys, they, they're reallygood at what they do.
Let me be, I don't want to talkto anybody, I don't want to
participate, I want to weld andthen go home In my you know, in
my truck and just have a youknow, have an evening with my
family.
But Knowing what they know andknowing how to get that
(31:12):
information from them and havethem feel valuable, and giving
that information, want to getthat information, can be every
bit as important as anythingelse in that company.
A lot of people in thosepositions You're you know your
people in the warehouse, you'reyou're lower level sales team,
you're you know your tradesmenthere's this idea of, like you
said this that's not my place,that's not my role, that's not,
(31:33):
you know, I'm not, I'm not inthe big office with the big guys
, right, but at the end of theday, but I mean, brad Pitt was
an extra at one point, hmm,right, so so knowing that I have
something to offer and there'svalue there, feeling comfortable
coming forward and talkingabout it.
You'll always have those peoplewho are, who are in that role,
(31:55):
that have massive ambition andwill get there one way or
another.
But how do you find that personwhen they're?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
when they're not, they don't want to push through
yeah, yeah, like even that's agreat example welders, so many
professions have, so manyprofessions have like a
stereotypical Psychologicalprofile.
So people that are blue collaryou picture and I come from a
(32:25):
blue collar background, myparents were blue collar workers
that generation was just kindof like you put your nose down,
you work until it's time to comeup for lunch or your break, or
you go home and you literallypunch out.
So those are very deep.
They're very traditionalpositions where, yeah, they you
know for centuries in some casesand now for decades and other
(32:47):
new professions, they haven'tbeen asked what are you thinking
?
What are your thoughts?
How does this look to you?
Is this possible?
So that's where thatreassurance and a new leader can
set an amazing tone.
From day one, you take a groupof people.
You have five different leaders.
(33:08):
Those five different leadersare gonna get five very
different results, for the mostpart from a set group of people.
If you had them, lead themright.
So if you bring in a new leader, if a new leader comes in, it's
like you have to set that tonefrom the get-go, because even if
you go up to somebody saythey're welding, and you wait
for them to stop and you go upto them and you're like, hey,
what's going on?
(33:28):
I'm John, I'm the new leaderhere, new manager here, new
supervisor, whatever it may bejust want to get your thoughts
on a couple of things.
Like for me, if I'm a bluecollar worker and my tools are
the machine, or I design stuff,if I haven't seen somebody come
up to me let's talkstereotypical in a suit, in a
(33:48):
white shirt, in a tie, and nowhe or she is asking me what I
think, what's going on?
Am I being set up?
Are they downsizing?
Are they preparing for layoffs?
And they're asking questions tosee where they seek those
efficiencies.
So that's where thatquestioning, that's where that
curiosity, that's where thatreassurance, constant
(34:09):
reassurance.
It's not that you have to beout there every day, but
whatever you're sharing,whatever you're asking, be
intentional about it, beauthentic about it, because all
it takes is one misstep to losesomebody's trust.
So it does take a lot more tobuild it up, but take those
steps.
So you want to open it up, butyou want to demonstrate hey,
(34:32):
this is for real.
Again, this isn't a checkbox,this isn't a gotcha moment, this
isn't a test or a quiz.
I think we're all in thistogether.
I think we have the resourcesin this building per se right to
get these things off the ground, to start new things, to do
great work.
But it takes whoever'scomfortable to step up and
listen.
There are people that just goto work for a paycheck.
(34:55):
I've been in those kind ofsituations where it's like I've
tried something, it's notworking, so I'm just going to be
here and collect my paycheck.
You just have to figure out whowants to be there.
You don't have to force thosepeople.
There's going to be peopleagain.
They just want to provide forthemselves or their family.
That's all they're there for.
But I think for every personthat is like that, you'll
(35:15):
probably have two or three thathave great ideas that do want to
step up, maybe in their own way.
They don't want to be in thelimelight or any of that stuff,
but they're willing to sharetheir ideas.
Because sharing who we are, howwe can contribute to our tribe
that's in our DNA, that's whatwe're built, that's our
primitive mind is about beingwith a group, demonstrating who
(35:38):
we are in our DNA so that we'renot left out in the dust.
So most people are going towant to contribute.
They just need that permission.
They need that modeling thatthey're in the right environment
that's going to allow them todo that.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
I love that and I think that that could even be a
really good test of how wellyou're doing on the
psychological safety front is asa leader.
Walk around, just see howsurprised people are to see you.
Go talk to some of those peoplethat you don't normally
interact with and see how theyreact to your presence, and if
you feel like the whole exchangeis uncomfortable, maybe the
(36:15):
psychological safety isn't whereit should be.
So, as we wrap up here, john,what advice would you give to
leaders and business ownersFinal note as to what you would
tell them as far as fostering anenvironment for innovation,
start listening, start modelingthat it's safe to speak your
(36:37):
mind, to own your mistakes, tobe human.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I mean coming out of the pandemic.
People realize they don't wanttransactional jobs.
They want things that havemeaning.
We'll see where everythingsettles, but I don't think
that's going to go away, thatrealization that they want to do
meaningful work.
When people are doingmeaningful work, when you do
something that you care about,you will put as much as you have
into it.
But if you go to your work,your job and everything seems
(37:04):
transactional, like it's justmeans to an end and that's it,
people will shut down.
So I would say to any leader becurious as soon as possible, be
authentic.
If it's not your cup of tea, ifit's not your jam to tap into
the soft skills not everybody'sbuilt the same way, not
everybody's programmed the sameway Understand, look for the
(37:27):
studies that say I don't havethem here to cite.
Look for the studies that showyou that soft skills, emotional
intelligence, all these othernot soft skills I say soft
skills because that's whatpeople understand them to be
it's human skills.
Look into these studies thatshow you that these human skills
ripple into the bottom and thetop line.
(37:49):
So even if you're just businessoriented, there's nothing wrong
with that.
But recognize that this is goodfor business to open up, to
provide psychological safety.
That gets you better ideas,that gets you better innovation.
Before you go outside of yourcompany, tap into who you have
around you, but just listen towhat you have and recognize
(38:10):
those resources.
They're at your fingertips.
So how much are you tappinginto what people can and want to
provide?
Speaker 1 (38:18):
I love that.
I'll call that the Tom Bradymentality.
You've Tom Brady, who somehowmanaged just to be so connected
to even the youngest members ofthe team, and then you've got
people like Aaron Rodgers andMatt Stafford who just talk
about how impossible it is totalk to these young kids.
I don't even know what they'redoing.
I don't know what they'resaying.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, I think leaders need to understand in general,
how much better are you leavingpeople than you found them?
How many leaders are youcreating?
Your job for me, in my eyes, isto make more leaders.
How are you empowering people?
How are you building uppeople's confidence?
Again, even if you're not humanskills minded and your natural
(39:02):
step isn't to think this way,this is all good for the bottom
line.
This is all good for innovation.
This is all good for the topline.
This is all good for reputationof the organization.
People talk on social media.
They know which companies aredoing what.
They know which companies arenot only producing products, but
the cultures at those companies.
(39:22):
This all gets out.
So, again, even if your heartisn't in it from the get go, you
can get there.
But understand that it's asound business decision to look
at the power of leadership andleading others when you want to
get to that innovation.
It's just, it's undeniable andI don't think it's going to go
back to what it was before.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
I agree, all right, well, john, thank you so much
for joining us today.
Our next conversation, the nexttime we meet, we'll be talking
about finding those hiddeninnovators and how do we get to
them.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Absolutely buddy.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
My pleasure, thank you.
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