Welcome to a captivating episode of the Inscape Quest podcast, where we delve deep into some complexities of trauma dynamics in the dressage community. In this enlightening discourse with special guest, Dr. Jane Karol, we explore themes like vicarious trauma, equine welfare and nurturing personal growth amidst challenges.
Dr. Karol, an accomplished dressage rider, trainer, instructor, competitor, and psychotherapist, provides a multi-dimensional perspective, shedding light on the psychological aspects of events in the dressage community and the parallel trauma processes between humans and horses. Be a part of this thought-provoking conversation seeking to encourage adaptive responses, and inspire positive transformation in equestrian sports.
Additionally, we venture into the power dynamics within trainer-trainee relationships, highlighting potential vulnerabilities. Insights are shared on power dynamics, distorted perceptions, lowered self-esteem, and emotional turmoil.
We highlight communication's importance, the need to break the silence surrounding such experiences, and the importance of self-care in recovery. Despite the challenges, we bring forward a message of hope for growth and change.
In conclusion, we urge listeners to slow down, prioritize well-being, and cherish the beauty of connection with horses. Tune in to this poignant conversation, gain understanding, and work towards a compassionate environment for all in the equestrian community
This podcast is about dealing with personal trauma related to the alleged abuse of animals. It contains a discussion of recent public allegations about the abuse of dressage horses. The participants in this discussion have no personal knowledge as to the truth or falsity of any of these allegations and nothing in this podcast is intended to comment on or should be interpreted as commenting on the truth or falsity of any allegation.
Bear Spot Foundation provides Equine Facilitated Psychotherapy to children, adolescents, and adults.
Free PDF download on Vicarious Trauma
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello podcast listeners, thank you for tuning in today to the InScapeQuest podcast show.
I am your host, Trudy Howley. Here I am talking with people about how they engage
with their relationships, work and passions.
Please subscribe and share this show with a friend.
(00:20):
And thanks to you, we can grow meaningful conversations together, one episode at a time.
Welcome to this episode of the InScape Quest podcast show.
Today, I have the pleasure of talking to my very special guest, Dr. Jane Carroll.
She enjoys each of her unique roles as psychotherapist, dressage rider,
(00:44):
trainer, instructor, and competitor.
Jane is a USDF gold medalist with distinction.
She's trained over 10 horses to Grand Prix and works with many of the top clinicians.
In the world. Jane opened Bear Spot Farm in Concord,
Massachusetts in 1994 and this is home to 26 horses and the farm provides state-of-the-art
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care and structured dressage training programs for horse and rider.
In addition to this, Jane has founded the Bear Spot Foundation which offers
Equine-Facilitated Psychotherapy to Children and Adults.
Together, we explore some psychological basics that may be missing from the
(01:30):
current conversation in the world of dressage in particular.
And we're seeking to explore vicarious trauma and creating some space which
allows us for power in how we choose to respond to certain things that are currently
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at the forefront of conversations.
And this response allows for our growth and freedom as a community.
This podcast is about dealing with personal trauma related to the alleged abuse of animals.
It does contain a discussion of recent public allegations about the abuse of dressage horses.
(02:14):
The participants in this discussion have no personal knowledge as to the truth
or falsity of any of these allegations and nothing in this podcast is intended
to comment on or should be interpreted as commenting on the truth or falsity of any allegations.
Music.
(02:39):
Well, welcome, Jane. I'm so happy that you're here today engaging with our listeners.
I think you have a lot to offer, and I think there's interesting conversations,
directions we could go in.
Not sure where we're going to end up today, but in your capacity as both a long-time
(03:02):
dressage rider, trainer, instructor, competitor, and psychotherapist.
I'm hoping that we can navigate a journey of discovery here around what's going
on in the dressage community in particular, and maybe in equestrian sports in
a wider perspective as well today.
(03:24):
Thank you for being here.
Thank you so much for inviting me. I feel honored to be a part of this conversation.
Discussion. I mean, a starting place is to just acknowledge that you and I are
here as a way that we're connected through a love of horses.
And I think that needs to be the forefront and center of any conversation.
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In that role, as both of us being psychotherapists,
that we also have have a responsibility to support each other in continuing
enjoying these amazing animals by sharing some things from the psychological
world that might not be at the forefront.
You know, just to name that we're not in an authority role here.
(04:12):
We're just urging people to utilize their different resources,
their different support systems and maybe we can just add to that exploratory process.
I just want to thank you for creating this platform to have this discussion.
I don't think there's another platform out there right now for people to really
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talk on a more intimate level and allow all the intricacies of our feelings
and perceptions about the recent reports of abuse.
And the threats to our sport, the art of dressage, and other equine-related activities.
(04:55):
And this is just an incredible opportunity, and I really appreciate it.
I think a lot of people will benefit from this sort of conversation and bringing
our thoughts and feelings and fears and hopes out there to each other, to support each other.
I think that it might be an important in place to begin is to talk about the fact that these videos,
(05:19):
hopefully I'm not jumping in too fast on this, these videos of Seiza Parra's
activities with the horses that were quite abusive were hard to watch.
The photos and the videos, the sounds on those videos are hard to hear and it's
hard to look at when you love these animals and you've spent your whole life,
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Probably most people since they were young,
wishing to be around the horses and loving being close to them and wanting to
learn about them when you see that kind of action and behavior on an animal
that can't do anything about it.
It's traumatic in itself. That is something we call vicarious trauma or secondary
(06:04):
trauma in the psychology world.
It can cause us to have physical and emotional trauma reactions that we're not even conscious of.
And that can create a stress level that makes us behave also in ways we're not
aware that it's kind of feeding behavior that's either destructive to others
(06:27):
or destructive to ourselves or just
a general stress level that we don't understand where it's coming from.
Because we're not connecting having watched that
kind of behavior that how you see it on
the video again says i might have a defense for it i don't know what that would
be but the video in itself i'd rather talk about those of us who have seen it
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and love the animals and care for them and how that can affect us negatively
we can also talk about i would love i want to talk about these these things.
So people are aware of what might be going on for them as we as a community face this problem.
Obviously, it's not just one report this year.
It's also Hildegardstrand, that report, those videos, and other stories.
(07:12):
I can't comment on the truth of these things, but just discussion,
just knowing these things are out there is affecting us as a community. community.
Trauma causes, and again, I think just seeing these videos can cause these things for many of us.
Causes physiological reactions, including our cortisone levels increase,
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the part of our brain that is in flight-flight mode gets activated.
It's called the amygdala. It's in combination also with something called the
hippocampus. I won't go into all these things.
I think people can take a deeper dive into those things if they want to.
The kind of increased cortisone levels, stress levels, the parts of the brain
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that sort of would say get sort of catch on fire when you're under stress,
make it so it's difficult for us to cope with in a more common environment.
So we might feel stressed and then we go out to dinner with someone and we get
into an argument or we get on line and we start arguing or we feel badly about
(08:20):
ourselves and we feel guilt and we don't even know where it's coming from.
It also can bring up historical abuse or even things we didn't see were abusive,
historical things about our sense of self, have us feel more vulnerable and irritated,
I'd say agitated in a way we don't even know why.
(08:41):
As we're all in the community watching these videos, probably thinking about
it through the day, I mean, I know I have been about how it's going to affect our world.
So primary trauma is when something happens to us and vicarious trauma is when
we're witnessing something happening to somebody else or an animal in this case.
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The stress that may come and go can also accumulate over time as well as triggering
historic trauma that we may have experienced or we may have witnessed in the past,
and then anxiety starts shifting into chronic,
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that's what we really need to deal with, normalizing a stress response before
it becomes really problematic.
Exactly. I think the difficult part is, in this case, I think as we experience
this as a group, as horse people,
I don't think we're always, I don't think a lot of us are aware that we're having
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a stress response to these videos and to what's going on in the community,
because I'm not sure we're connecting the video or the photographs or the stories with our agitation,
maybe lack of sleep, maybe more anxiety.
So I just want to put that out there. I think there's an increased level level
of stress for all of us right now.
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Often the way we would deal with something is to take some sort of appropriate
control when we're feeling that kind of stress if we see something that's bothering us.
But in this case, it's hard to know how to do that.
These cases, sometimes this abuse that we're witnessing has been going on for
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years and no one's been doing anything about it.
So the question is, how is it affecting us, each individual in different ways?
How is it affecting us as a community? What kinds of systems are in place to
help take care of things when there's abuse?
Do we think there's enough? And then what can we do as individuals for ourselves
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as we get more conscious of how it's affecting us.
I think there are ways to, there are strategies that we can use.
Can we regulate what might be an emotional dysregulation going on?
And then also the collective piece.
It seems a good starting place is if we can maybe make an agreement to be emotionally
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flexible going forward.
Like as a community, can we make a commitment to being adaptive,
self-reflective in a way that's not blaming.
Because if we start blaming, then we end up being narcissistic.
The exciting part of these conversations at this particular moment in time is
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like there's so much hope there because there's so much love for the horses
and remaining in awe of them.
We have so much to learn. It's going to be positive and hopeful by engaging
in these kind of conversations instead of like going down a punitive,
more scrutiny focused type of road.
(12:01):
I definitely agree with you. I think that is the way forward.
This platform, you're allowing this conversation forward.
Is a beautiful way for us to take part in that, to support each other and not
go into blame and criticism that's so easy to do on social media,
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but to find a way to come together,
help each other, support each other, find ways of creating more systems to support
ourselves and our horses.
Helping people who are stuck in those situations and don't know how to get out,
these kinds of ideas and ways
to move forward this conversation will further all
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of that being supportive and providing a
safe space for each other because
also disagreeing with each other is
actually healthy if we can do it in
a careful way and exactly that's the
hardest part is how are we supposed to have
the conversation have the disagreement because
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some people are going to have a
different way of going about it there's going to be this whole there's this whole spectrum
of reactions and beliefs and ways people
think we should move forward and if what we need to do respectfully and with
kind of a sense of that each person wants the same thing do it in a way that's
not parallel processing in terms of like let's not go forward and try to criticize
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size each other and be abusive to each other?
How do we support and make things happen and care for each other?
Absolutely. I think that's really important.
People seem to have a lot of anger and allowing that to come up and through,
but not in a destructive way to actually turn that into a positive reframing things and growth.
(13:55):
I agree. And I think that's why I wanted to talk a little little bit about what
happens with vicarious trauma because.
People can feel agitated. Their actual physical responses are coming out in
ways that are seen disconnected to the trauma, but aren't.
They're actually connected because there's no consciousness of it.
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So then we're attacking other people online.
And I wouldn't say we, because I'm not doing that.
For those people who are engaged in expressing their anger in a way,
I believe if they understand this is connected to their own feeling of trauma,
their own trauma that they're having by experiencing these videos and these
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stories, I think then we can take a step towards compassion of the self and then others.
We're allowing voices to be heard and encouraging people to talk in a way that
ensures growth instead of having people stay stuck in this response where they
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feel they can't run away or they can't fight back.
The chronic stuckness happens.
And it's also parallel to what's happening with horses.
As prey animals, they can't run away, or they can't fight back.
And then we're merging with their trauma as well, instances of that happening.
(15:23):
Yes, I agree with you. I think we both know the terminology of learned helplessness.
Wonderful theorist, researcher named Seligman.
Who studied depression, Leslie's horses have no escape and we can't figure out
a way forward that's positive.
We have a parallel process with them in the moment in trauma and there's no
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way anyone can figure out except to lash out, to make change,
to have power in a positive way instead of using power against each other and against the animal.
It's interesting thinking about horses as being flight animals and prey animals
and that we're predators and then we're engaging in a relationship to build
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harmony with them so we can exist safely together.
Together enjoy each other as well?
Because I'm kind of curious to ask this question of you. As riders,
we're taught to react quickly.
A lot of times that's important from a safety aspect because these animals are
dangerous and strong and athletic and we have to be safe.
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Psychotherapy perspective, we often work with clients that we need to not react
quite so So quickly, we need to slow down and we need to build in a pause and
respond instead of react.
So is there enough psychology in training?
So hopefully I'll answer this correctly. What you're asking is so wonderful
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and I think could write four books on it.
I think there's a similar way of creating a conversation that is fundamentally based in trust.
If you are working with a client, the first thing we do is develop trust.
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And the same thing with a horse. And we learned this from the greatest horse
people over the history, people like Ray Hunt.
We start by developing slowly and with our reactions that actually aren't quick
reactions to our bodies because that kind of quick reaction when a whore is
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going to possibly create a light reaction,
but the slow development of a conversation with a horse is the best way to go.
Yes, okay, we're on a horse that maybe doesn't have that foundation and something
happens, then we have to react quickly.
But the quick reaction is a reaction, hopefully, that calms them back into the
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conversation we're having with them within their language.
That we take that action with an understanding of the psychological processes
of the horse, the way a horse thinks, of what will calm a horse.
We don't do it because we're afraid and our anxiety and the physical reaction
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in our bodies makes us angry, right? right?
I mean, we've seen people do that in the horse world.
We have to overcome that as humans.
We have to go into a place of what is my... And it's split second.
I realize it's extremely hard to do, but that's how we need to train ourselves.
And the good horse people do, they react quickly.
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A horse may try to bolt, but for example, because they're afraid of something
and the rider might quickly turn the horse in a circle and get the head and
neck in a position where the horse can and relax again, get the back relaxed,
get the muscles relaxed by turning the horse quickly, getting them back.
But it doesn't take that long and it's not abusive.
So similarly with human, obviously we're not riding, we're across from them, talking to them.
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And we have to take time, as you said, to develop trust.
But hopefully, in the best of circumstances, we're taking time,
We're working those horses on the ground, we're developing trust.
And we're developing a way to have a conversation with them that brings them
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always back into their bodies in a calm way.
Same thing with our clients, that if we get to an edge that's uncomfortable.
We don't necessarily, if we have trust with the client, we can stay in that
discomfort if we know it's a therapeutic process.
And if we don't, then we cannot go there because that would be re-traumatizing.
(19:57):
It's wonderful understanding the horse. Like let's look at training,
riding from the perspective of the horse and at the same time learning where
is our edge of being dysregulated if we're in a lesson situation?
You know, where are we getting overwhelmed?
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Maybe shutting down. How might that show up in particular instances if you've got,
trainer who is quite dominant, the rider becomes or owner becomes vulnerable
to this sort of power over that's going on.
And I'm wondering that dynamic.
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I mean, it's apparent in all training systems, but when it does show up,
how can people support themselves in kind of regrouping, working through their
own vulnerabilities here?
This is also a great question and complicated.
In the horse world, whatever the discipline is, but particularly in dressage,
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we go to trainers because they know more than us, often put them on a pedestal
and because of their knowledge, because of what they've accomplished,
and we put them on pedestals and we lend them power by making that seem that
they, well, they do know more about a technical thing, But we also have that
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spread out into them as a human being, like they are better,
they know more, we have to, we sort of give ourselves away a little bit to those
people that we put on the pedestal.
That can put us in a situation when a trainer doesn't have the best methodology.
Is abusive, aggressive, doesn't think about the inner world of a horse or the rider.
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That can put people in a situation where they feel less sense of self because
the trainer is saying things that are not supportive and kind and building up the self-esteem.
And they can make decisions where the trainer is telling them to do something
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that's abusive to the horse, or they can watch the trainer do that and rationalize
that that person knows better.
And they will be put in a situation where they're either carrying it out or
watching it happen and doing nothing about it.
These situations are complicated because usually those trainers,
people who are put into situations, I'm sure everyone's heard of the Stockholm syndrome,
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put into situations where they know it's wrong in the beginning.
They're put in a new situation where
they are being uncomfortable
and least uncomfortable at worst
they're being emotionally tortured almost
and then that person who's in power says something nice to them and or does
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something nice in the situation of an extreme situation where there's violence
maybe the person who has kidnapped them has said i won't kill you and then all
of a sudden and that becomes a gracious move.
The person who's been kidnapped is like, oh, this isn't a bad person anymore
because all they said was, I'm not going to take your life.
Their perception can change. A reasonable person then becomes being just an
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action of, I'm not going to kill you, a non-negative action of something that's gracious.
The whole perspective within a normal relationship becomes skewed for the person.
So they end up not being able to analyze or experience that relationship with the trainer.
I'm making an exaggerated example so I can get to the point of trainers can
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subtly affect people's self-esteem and their judgment.
And in a normal situation situation where you would see something as abuse,
but that particular trainer.
Becomes rationalized as it's a means to an end and
then they go along with it because the trainer has
somehow at one point taken away their
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self-esteem and another point said given them told
them what to think and not to think seems somewhat nice and all of a sudden
gracious even though they're just doing a normal thing like saying oh hello
how was your day that becomes something oh then they're not so bad actually
this person's really not so bad they're they're They're asking me how my day was.
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They're giving me, you know, a cup of coffee.
And yet those very subtle interactions where they are in power,
they're being given power because of their knowledge and their reputation,
and yet their behavior is abusive.
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And then their behavior is nice, can put people in this repeated circle of,
oh, what I'm seeing isn't so bad.
And then they don't, they also feel special because they're not the one being
scapegoated necessarily by the trainer usually has scapegoat.
Then judgment gets distorted about what's okay and what's not okay anymore in
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the process of training and the means justifying the ends.
So in those situations, it's very hard to come back to the self,
to what you were thinking and feeling before you met that trainer,
before you gave away the power.
But there are ways to to remind yourself of what's a normal relationship and
what's, what allows you to build self-esteem and the self and the sort of sense of self in the horse.
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Really helpful to, to understand that. Also, I'm thinking as finishing there,
that there's also this element of shame that could show up in. So much. Yes.
That's the most, that is such an important point, that emotion of guilt and shame.
Is it's just so painful for people
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and then it starts to feed the insecurity
instead of help them out of it they start
to feel like horrible people and then they give away more
power and the circle just keeps going and in a spiraling downward into can be
can turn into serious depression and self-hatred the shame is enormous especially
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when we become conscious And on these trainers,
the ones that are particularly destructive know how to create guilt and they
know how to create shame and they know in a very insidious ways before anyone
knows it, how to make an individual feel self-hatred.
And there, in a place where you're feeling shame and guilt and self-hatred,
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it's so difficult to take positive action.
One of the most important pieces of positive action around dealing with shame
seems to be breaking the silence,
having the intention to reach out to others and take that brave step and have conversations,
whether it's with a friend or another coach or therapist is so important. Right.
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And that's why, again, this conversation is possibly beginning to open up the
idea of talking to someone.
And obviously, when someone's feeling that much shame, it's so difficult.
To trust another person and figure out who that person would be,
a little bit of enough self-esteem to take the action of talking to somebody.
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And there are many wonderful trainers out, you know, encouraging people as we
navigate through naming some of these issues in this conversation today.
Go and go do a little bit of homework. work, go to some clinics,
audit some lessons, engage in community, seeing what's out there,
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because there's also a lot of good.
I agree with you. I mean, there are so many people who,
and so many technologies and so much knowledge we have now about how to train
in a way that's compassionate in relation to the horse's inner world and how
they think if someone's stuck and and they're feeling badly,
but they're still rationalizing what they're doing.
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It's just difficult to even know that there's something out there.
We love our horses, and there's so many people out there to talk to if the window can open a little bit.
Just wanted to touch back in on the images for a moment, because we know from
viewing images in the news,
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we're talking about one piece of our world where we both have been immersed.
Well, there's a lot of traumatic things going on in the world and we're absorbing those through images.
At some point, it's like it's okay not to look if you need a break.
If you choose to engage with looking at images,
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knowing that this is a segment, we don't know what happened before,
or we don't know what happens afterwards, giving ourselves a little bit of media literacy.
If we view these things differently.
Those images may get stuck. Making a deliberate choice about whether or not
(29:24):
we're self-regulated enough to actually engage with looking in the first place.
I absolutely agree with you. We have to give ourselves permission not to look.
And if we're going to look, it's so important to understand how those images
can affect us consciously or unconsciously and what that looks like for each individual,
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Whether it's allowing ourselves to care for ourselves in a way that acknowledges
how difficult it is to live in a world of this immediate videos of horrors, really,
between the wars and so much information that we get that is so destructive, more and more chaotic.
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The ways that each individual finds compassion for themselves and compassion for others.
And what do you do with your anger? How can we use our anger and not feel powerless,
but use it in a productive way? Anger is helpful.
It's almost, it's so often destructive, but how can we turn it into something positive?
(30:34):
I mean, my sense is you created this podcast because you felt some maybe anger,
some need to change things,
and you transferred whatever your emotions were into something incredibly powerful
and constructive and needed in the world.
We need this. We need the conversations.
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This is one way of doing it, using our emotions that tell us something's wrong
and making something better.
In the feelings of frustration and anger and also.
Hope for positive actions is
being adaptive and trying to be creative in engaging in change behavior.
(31:21):
And I also just wanted to know, there's a professor of equine sustainability,
Inga Wolfman, and she's written a paper recently about changing hearts and changing
minds that capability, Capability, opportunity, and motivation all influence behavior.
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Ultimately, these determine whether behavior change is executed.
Just keeping that in mind. There's a lot of work being done out there by others
around what we can do differently in equestrian sports.
It seems like there's a growth industry with animal behaviorists as well.
(32:04):
We really are on the cusp here of doing
some good things and in particular incorporating what
can we learn from the horses because they are
so present in their world like they are present in the moment there's a lot
that they can teach us about self-regulation you know they have a response to
(32:27):
something that may be dangerous in their environment and they check it out and
then then they go back to grazing.
So they don't ever really lie to us.
They're just so immediate. They don't have an agenda and they are so forgiving.
And we need to be forgiving of ourselves.
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And that's the only way we're going to be humane, I think.
You know, one thing I wanted to touch on is sometimes we lose in these situations
where or we're feeling stressed or we're in a long-time abusive situation or
watching it is we lose a sense of what's grounding,
what helps us get grounded, what helps us go back to grazing like the horse.
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I think it's helpful for people to keep in their mind and what they imagine
is the best kind of supportive relationship, whether they've had a mentor in
the past or they have a friend.
And how that friend treated them, what their friend would say in this situation,
what would the friend say if they saw this happening, because it sometimes brings
(33:34):
you outside of the situation.
There's stories like the children's stories of George and Martha.
I don't know if you're familiar with those, but they are fantastic.
Fantastic. They're like one sentence on each page, short sentences.
They're for little kids.
But I always come back to those because that is the best example of how to treat
(33:56):
each other. They're forgiving.
They are accepting of each other's, I know it sounds odd, but they're accepting
of each other's oddities.
And they treat each other the way people should treat each other.
And so sometimes if people are in the situation that they're just stressed and
they're wondering about if they're being treated well or if a horse is being
(34:17):
treated well, it helps us get grounded.
It helps us go back to grazing. It helps us have compassion.
Also, I think when we can do that, it will help us take positive action.
Engaging in self-care activities you
know without sounding trite because it's out there all
the time you know we've got to practice self-care but it really is important
(34:40):
just connecting with your body and that that's actually the wonderful thing
about riding is just connecting with your body and connecting with the horse
and being so beautifully present with them in as many moments as possible.
It's not always 100% of the time, but that's what I think collectively we're,
(35:02):
striving for as well. Exactly.
It's the self-care. I agree with you. It can be.
What does that mean exactly? It's something that takes us out of our trance, our negative trance.
Like if the sort of vicarious trauma can be stuck in that, this word stuck is
very important in this conversation, can be stuck in a system,
(35:26):
in a relationship, in a process that can go on for years.
How do we get out of that? How do we wake up out of that trance?
Things like riding in the right circumstances with the right guide,
letting the horse guide us there, meditation,
if it helps us wake up, not if it re-traumatizes us, everyone will have ideas
(35:47):
about what would be the best way to get them present again, to be able to step
back and see the situation,
get out of the traumatic,
circular trance.
Touching in on the discomfort of that
is can be difficult can be painful
even though it's going to ultimately be incredibly
(36:09):
rewarding just supporting each
other while we have those difficult conversations pushing forward looking at
as many voices as possible being included in the conversation and then also
acknowledging that there are a lot of experts out there who can bring a lot to this conversation.
(36:30):
Getting outside of the tramp, getting away from it, can be desperately lonely.
This truth that you're saying here, that it is actually not,
it doesn't have to be a lonely place because there are people there outside
of it for you when you get away from it.
I think one of the reasons people don't always report things is because I think
(36:52):
they feel like there's nothing there outside, there's no,
greater systems that's going to come in and help them. They don't feel like it's safe enough.
Being motivated by an openness for growth rather than resistance saying, well, it's not me.
We can all learn here for sure.
Acknowledging also this other aspect of a fear of the lens being turned on each other.
(37:19):
You know, in any given moment, it's all part of the training process,
but that doesn't necessarily mean it's abusive and
we've all got to stop putting bits in horses
mouths you know trying to be realistic exactly
it's so like you said before sometimes
these social media posts are just one second in a beautiful ride where a horse
(37:45):
might put its head down a little too far or its mouth might be open i mean obviously
if it's something that's clearly clearly related to bad training. Okay.
It's so scary out there right now for trainers.
Everyone's very protective of worried about if someone's going to take a video
or a snapshot and put it in the wrong context when it's not deserved.
(38:08):
When it's deserved, okay. But if it's not, it's just so awful that,
you know, it makes it so we are very alone.
And then we're all worried about the next person instead
of joining together as a community it is
a problem it separates us instead of
helps instead of getting us to help each other hopefully at least some of this
(38:30):
conversation people might be able to take bits of it away you know have some
language to put around what they might be feeling or thinking or directions
they might want to go in absolutely Yeah,
so let's keep looking out for the new science that's ever evolving as well,
(38:51):
as we also look back to the past as well and learn from the good traditions
and maybe doing things a little bit more slowly in a very informed way.
Blowing it down focusing on the
well-being and relaxation and the
(39:11):
beauty in that let's hope we move in
that direction so thank you very much jane i think that's a wonderful place
to get started and hopefully people will have more conversations and even have
more ideas to to add to moving moving forward.
(39:32):
And so thank you very much for being here today and sharing your wisdoms and
expertise and insights with the listeners.
Thank you. Hopefully this is a beginning to raising consciousness and the conversation.
Thank you for tuning in today to this episode of the Inscape.
Podcast show with my special guest, Dr. Jane Carroll.
(39:55):
Please be sure to share this episode with a friend and check the subscribe or follow button.
It's free to get a reminder for more episodes.
If you'd like to contact us, please reach out to us on Instagram at InScapeQuest.
And remember, this podcast is about dealing with personal trauma related to
(40:17):
the alleged abuse of animals.
It contains a discussion of recent public allegations about the abuse of dressage horses.
The participants in this discussion have no personal knowledge as to the truth
or falsity of any of these allegations,
and nothing in this podcast is intended to comment on or should be interpreted
(40:37):
as commenting on the truth or falsity of any allegations.
Hello podcast listeners, thank you for tuning in today to the InScapeQuest podcast show.
I am your host, Trudy Howley. Here I am talking with people about how they engage
with their relationships, work and passions.
Please subscribe and share this show with a friend.
(00:20):
And thanks to you, we can grow meaningful conversations together, one episode at a time.
Welcome to this episode of the InScape Quest podcast show.
Today, I have the pleasure of talking to my very special guest, Dr. Jane Carroll.
She enjoys each of her unique roles as psychotherapist, dressage rider,
(00:44):
trainer, instructor, and competitor.
Jane is a USDF gold medalist with distinction.
She's trained over 10 horses to Grand Prix and works with many of the top clinicians.
In the world. Jane opened Bear Spot Farm in Concord,
Massachusetts in 1994 and this is home to 26 horses and the farm provides state-of-the-art
(01:09):
care and structured dressage training programs for horse and rider.
In addition to this, Jane has founded the Bear Spot Foundation which offers
Equine-Facilitated Psychotherapy to Children and Adults.
Together, we explore some psychological basics that may be missing from the
(01:30):
current conversation in the world of dressage in particular.
And we're seeking to explore vicarious trauma and creating some space which
allows us for power in how we choose to respond to certain things that are currently
(01:51):
at the forefront of conversations.
And this response allows for our growth and freedom as a community.
This podcast is about dealing with personal trauma related to the alleged abuse of animals.
It does contain a discussion of recent public allegations about the abuse of dressage horses.
(02:14):
The participants in this discussion have no personal knowledge as to the truth
or falsity of any of these allegations and nothing in this podcast is intended
to comment on or should be interpreted as commenting on the truth or falsity of any allegations.
Music.
(02:39):
Well, welcome, Jane. I'm so happy that you're here today engaging with our listeners.
I think you have a lot to offer, and I think there's interesting conversations,
directions we could go in.
Not sure where we're going to end up today, but in your capacity as both a long-time
(03:02):
dressage rider, trainer, instructor, competitor, and psychotherapist.
I'm hoping that we can navigate a journey of discovery here around what's going
on in the dressage community in particular, and maybe in equestrian sports in
a wider perspective as well today.
(03:24):
Thank you for being here.
Thank you so much for inviting me. I feel honored to be a part of this conversation.
Discussion. I mean, a starting place is to just acknowledge that you and I are
here as a way that we're connected through a love of horses.
And I think that needs to be the forefront and center of any conversation.
(03:49):
In that role, as both of us being psychotherapists,
that we also have have a responsibility to support each other in continuing
enjoying these amazing animals by sharing some things from the psychological
world that might not be at the forefront.
You know, just to name that we're not in an authority role here.
(04:12):
We're just urging people to utilize their different resources,
their different support systems and maybe we can just add to that exploratory process.
I just want to thank you for creating this platform to have this discussion.
I don't think there's another platform out there right now for people to really
(04:34):
talk on a more intimate level and allow all the intricacies of our feelings
and perceptions about the recent reports of abuse.
And the threats to our sport, the art of dressage, and other equine-related activities.
(04:55):
And this is just an incredible opportunity, and I really appreciate it.
I think a lot of people will benefit from this sort of conversation and bringing
our thoughts and feelings and fears and hopes out there to each other, to support each other.
I think that it might be an important in place to begin is to talk about the fact that these videos,
(05:19):
hopefully I'm not jumping in too fast on this, these videos of Seiza Parra's
activities with the horses that were quite abusive were hard to watch.
The photos and the videos, the sounds on those videos are hard to hear and it's
hard to look at when you love these animals and you've spent your whole life,
(05:43):
Probably most people since they were young,
wishing to be around the horses and loving being close to them and wanting to
learn about them when you see that kind of action and behavior on an animal
that can't do anything about it.
It's traumatic in itself. That is something we call vicarious trauma or secondary
(06:04):
trauma in the psychology world.
It can cause us to have physical and emotional trauma reactions that we're not even conscious of.
And that can create a stress level that makes us behave also in ways we're not
aware that it's kind of feeding behavior that's either destructive to others
(06:27):
or destructive to ourselves or just
a general stress level that we don't understand where it's coming from.
Because we're not connecting having watched that
kind of behavior that how you see it on
the video again says i might have a defense for it i don't know what that would
be but the video in itself i'd rather talk about those of us who have seen it
(06:48):
and love the animals and care for them and how that can affect us negatively
we can also talk about i would love i want to talk about these these things.
So people are aware of what might be going on for them as we as a community face this problem.
Obviously, it's not just one report this year.
It's also Hildegardstrand, that report, those videos, and other stories.
(07:12):
I can't comment on the truth of these things, but just discussion,
just knowing these things are out there is affecting us as a community. community.
Trauma causes, and again, I think just seeing these videos can cause these things for many of us.
Causes physiological reactions, including our cortisone levels increase,
(07:35):
the part of our brain that is in flight-flight mode gets activated.
It's called the amygdala. It's in combination also with something called the
hippocampus. I won't go into all these things.
I think people can take a deeper dive into those things if they want to.
The kind of increased cortisone levels, stress levels, the parts of the brain
(07:58):
that sort of would say get sort of catch on fire when you're under stress,
make it so it's difficult for us to cope with in a more common environment.
So we might feel stressed and then we go out to dinner with someone and we get
into an argument or we get on line and we start arguing or we feel badly about
(08:20):
ourselves and we feel guilt and we don't even know where it's coming from.
It also can bring up historical abuse or even things we didn't see were abusive,
historical things about our sense of self, have us feel more vulnerable and irritated,
I'd say agitated in a way we don't even know why.
(08:41):
As we're all in the community watching these videos, probably thinking about
it through the day, I mean, I know I have been about how it's going to affect our world.
So primary trauma is when something happens to us and vicarious trauma is when
we're witnessing something happening to somebody else or an animal in this case.
(09:04):
The stress that may come and go can also accumulate over time as well as triggering
historic trauma that we may have experienced or we may have witnessed in the past,
and then anxiety starts shifting into chronic,
(09:24):
that's what we really need to deal with, normalizing a stress response before
it becomes really problematic.
Exactly. I think the difficult part is, in this case, I think as we experience
this as a group, as horse people,
I don't think we're always, I don't think a lot of us are aware that we're having
(09:47):
a stress response to these videos and to what's going on in the community,
because I'm not sure we're connecting the video or the photographs or the stories with our agitation,
maybe lack of sleep, maybe more anxiety.
So I just want to put that out there. I think there's an increased level level
of stress for all of us right now.
(10:09):
Often the way we would deal with something is to take some sort of appropriate
control when we're feeling that kind of stress if we see something that's bothering us.
But in this case, it's hard to know how to do that.
These cases, sometimes this abuse that we're witnessing has been going on for
(10:29):
years and no one's been doing anything about it.
So the question is, how is it affecting us, each individual in different ways?
How is it affecting us as a community? What kinds of systems are in place to
help take care of things when there's abuse?
Do we think there's enough? And then what can we do as individuals for ourselves
(10:51):
as we get more conscious of how it's affecting us.
I think there are ways to, there are strategies that we can use.
Can we regulate what might be an emotional dysregulation going on?
And then also the collective piece.
It seems a good starting place is if we can maybe make an agreement to be emotionally
(11:15):
flexible going forward.
Like as a community, can we make a commitment to being adaptive,
self-reflective in a way that's not blaming.
Because if we start blaming, then we end up being narcissistic.
The exciting part of these conversations at this particular moment in time is
(11:39):
like there's so much hope there because there's so much love for the horses
and remaining in awe of them.
We have so much to learn. It's going to be positive and hopeful by engaging
in these kind of conversations instead of like going down a punitive,
more scrutiny focused type of road.
(12:01):
I definitely agree with you. I think that is the way forward.
This platform, you're allowing this conversation forward.
Is a beautiful way for us to take part in that, to support each other and not
go into blame and criticism that's so easy to do on social media,
(12:21):
but to find a way to come together,
help each other, support each other, find ways of creating more systems to support
ourselves and our horses.
Helping people who are stuck in those situations and don't know how to get out,
these kinds of ideas and ways
to move forward this conversation will further all
(12:43):
of that being supportive and providing a
safe space for each other because
also disagreeing with each other is
actually healthy if we can do it in
a careful way and exactly that's the
hardest part is how are we supposed to have
the conversation have the disagreement because
(13:05):
some people are going to have a
different way of going about it there's going to be this whole there's this whole spectrum
of reactions and beliefs and ways people
think we should move forward and if what we need to do respectfully and with
kind of a sense of that each person wants the same thing do it in a way that's
not parallel processing in terms of like let's not go forward and try to criticize
(13:31):
size each other and be abusive to each other?
How do we support and make things happen and care for each other?
Absolutely. I think that's really important.
People seem to have a lot of anger and allowing that to come up and through,
but not in a destructive way to actually turn that into a positive reframing things and growth.
(13:55):
I agree. And I think that's why I wanted to talk a little little bit about what
happens with vicarious trauma because.
People can feel agitated. Their actual physical responses are coming out in
ways that are seen disconnected to the trauma, but aren't.
They're actually connected because there's no consciousness of it.
(14:17):
So then we're attacking other people online.
And I wouldn't say we, because I'm not doing that.
For those people who are engaged in expressing their anger in a way,
I believe if they understand this is connected to their own feeling of trauma,
their own trauma that they're having by experiencing these videos and these
(14:39):
stories, I think then we can take a step towards compassion of the self and then others.
We're allowing voices to be heard and encouraging people to talk in a way that
ensures growth instead of having people stay stuck in this response where they
(14:59):
feel they can't run away or they can't fight back.
The chronic stuckness happens.
And it's also parallel to what's happening with horses.
As prey animals, they can't run away, or they can't fight back.
And then we're merging with their trauma as well, instances of that happening.
(15:23):
Yes, I agree with you. I think we both know the terminology of learned helplessness.
Wonderful theorist, researcher named Seligman.
Who studied depression, Leslie's horses have no escape and we can't figure out
a way forward that's positive.
We have a parallel process with them in the moment in trauma and there's no
(15:47):
way anyone can figure out except to lash out, to make change,
to have power in a positive way instead of using power against each other and against the animal.
It's interesting thinking about horses as being flight animals and prey animals
and that we're predators and then we're engaging in a relationship to build
(16:12):
harmony with them so we can exist safely together.
Together enjoy each other as well?
Because I'm kind of curious to ask this question of you. As riders,
we're taught to react quickly.
A lot of times that's important from a safety aspect because these animals are
dangerous and strong and athletic and we have to be safe.
(16:37):
Psychotherapy perspective, we often work with clients that we need to not react
quite so So quickly, we need to slow down and we need to build in a pause and
respond instead of react.
So is there enough psychology in training?
So hopefully I'll answer this correctly. What you're asking is so wonderful
(16:59):
and I think could write four books on it.
I think there's a similar way of creating a conversation that is fundamentally based in trust.
If you are working with a client, the first thing we do is develop trust.
(17:20):
And the same thing with a horse. And we learned this from the greatest horse
people over the history, people like Ray Hunt.
We start by developing slowly and with our reactions that actually aren't quick
reactions to our bodies because that kind of quick reaction when a whore is
(17:43):
going to possibly create a light reaction,
but the slow development of a conversation with a horse is the best way to go.
Yes, okay, we're on a horse that maybe doesn't have that foundation and something
happens, then we have to react quickly.
But the quick reaction is a reaction, hopefully, that calms them back into the
(18:05):
conversation we're having with them within their language.
That we take that action with an understanding of the psychological processes
of the horse, the way a horse thinks, of what will calm a horse.
We don't do it because we're afraid and our anxiety and the physical reaction
(18:25):
in our bodies makes us angry, right? right?
I mean, we've seen people do that in the horse world.
We have to overcome that as humans.
We have to go into a place of what is my... And it's split second.
I realize it's extremely hard to do, but that's how we need to train ourselves.
And the good horse people do, they react quickly.
(18:46):
A horse may try to bolt, but for example, because they're afraid of something
and the rider might quickly turn the horse in a circle and get the head and
neck in a position where the horse can and relax again, get the back relaxed,
get the muscles relaxed by turning the horse quickly, getting them back.
But it doesn't take that long and it's not abusive.
So similarly with human, obviously we're not riding, we're across from them, talking to them.
(19:13):
And we have to take time, as you said, to develop trust.
But hopefully, in the best of circumstances, we're taking time,
We're working those horses on the ground, we're developing trust.
And we're developing a way to have a conversation with them that brings them
(19:33):
always back into their bodies in a calm way.
Same thing with our clients, that if we get to an edge that's uncomfortable.
We don't necessarily, if we have trust with the client, we can stay in that
discomfort if we know it's a therapeutic process.
And if we don't, then we cannot go there because that would be re-traumatizing.
(19:57):
It's wonderful understanding the horse. Like let's look at training,
riding from the perspective of the horse and at the same time learning where
is our edge of being dysregulated if we're in a lesson situation?
You know, where are we getting overwhelmed?
(20:19):
Maybe shutting down. How might that show up in particular instances if you've got,
trainer who is quite dominant, the rider becomes or owner becomes vulnerable
to this sort of power over that's going on.
And I'm wondering that dynamic.
(20:40):
I mean, it's apparent in all training systems, but when it does show up,
how can people support themselves in kind of regrouping, working through their
own vulnerabilities here?
This is also a great question and complicated.
In the horse world, whatever the discipline is, but particularly in dressage,
(21:02):
we go to trainers because they know more than us, often put them on a pedestal
and because of their knowledge, because of what they've accomplished,
and we put them on pedestals and we lend them power by making that seem that
they, well, they do know more about a technical thing, But we also have that
(21:23):
spread out into them as a human being, like they are better,
they know more, we have to, we sort of give ourselves away a little bit to those
people that we put on the pedestal.
That can put us in a situation when a trainer doesn't have the best methodology.
Is abusive, aggressive, doesn't think about the inner world of a horse or the rider.
(21:47):
That can put people in a situation where they feel less sense of self because
the trainer is saying things that are not supportive and kind and building up the self-esteem.
And they can make decisions where the trainer is telling them to do something
(22:08):
that's abusive to the horse, or they can watch the trainer do that and rationalize
that that person knows better.
And they will be put in a situation where they're either carrying it out or
watching it happen and doing nothing about it.
These situations are complicated because usually those trainers,
people who are put into situations, I'm sure everyone's heard of the Stockholm syndrome,
(22:32):
put into situations where they know it's wrong in the beginning.
They're put in a new situation where
they are being uncomfortable
and least uncomfortable at worst
they're being emotionally tortured almost
and then that person who's in power says something nice to them and or does
(22:57):
something nice in the situation of an extreme situation where there's violence
maybe the person who has kidnapped them has said i won't kill you and then all
of a sudden and that becomes a gracious move.
The person who's been kidnapped is like, oh, this isn't a bad person anymore
because all they said was, I'm not going to take your life.
Their perception can change. A reasonable person then becomes being just an
(23:22):
action of, I'm not going to kill you, a non-negative action of something that's gracious.
The whole perspective within a normal relationship becomes skewed for the person.
So they end up not being able to analyze or experience that relationship with the trainer.
I'm making an exaggerated example so I can get to the point of trainers can
(23:48):
subtly affect people's self-esteem and their judgment.
And in a normal situation situation where you would see something as abuse,
but that particular trainer.
Becomes rationalized as it's a means to an end and
then they go along with it because the trainer has
somehow at one point taken away their
(24:10):
self-esteem and another point said given them told
them what to think and not to think seems somewhat nice and all of a sudden
gracious even though they're just doing a normal thing like saying oh hello
how was your day that becomes something oh then they're not so bad actually
this person's really not so bad they're they're They're asking me how my day was.
(24:31):
They're giving me, you know, a cup of coffee.
And yet those very subtle interactions where they are in power,
they're being given power because of their knowledge and their reputation,
and yet their behavior is abusive.
(24:52):
And then their behavior is nice, can put people in this repeated circle of,
oh, what I'm seeing isn't so bad.
And then they don't, they also feel special because they're not the one being
scapegoated necessarily by the trainer usually has scapegoat.
Then judgment gets distorted about what's okay and what's not okay anymore in
(25:13):
the process of training and the means justifying the ends.
So in those situations, it's very hard to come back to the self,
to what you were thinking and feeling before you met that trainer,
before you gave away the power.
But there are ways to to remind yourself of what's a normal relationship and
what's, what allows you to build self-esteem and the self and the sort of sense of self in the horse.
(25:40):
Really helpful to, to understand that. Also, I'm thinking as finishing there,
that there's also this element of shame that could show up in. So much. Yes.
That's the most, that is such an important point, that emotion of guilt and shame.
Is it's just so painful for people
(26:01):
and then it starts to feed the insecurity
instead of help them out of it they start
to feel like horrible people and then they give away more
power and the circle just keeps going and in a spiraling downward into can be
can turn into serious depression and self-hatred the shame is enormous especially
(26:25):
when we become conscious And on these trainers,
the ones that are particularly destructive know how to create guilt and they
know how to create shame and they know in a very insidious ways before anyone
knows it, how to make an individual feel self-hatred.
And there, in a place where you're feeling shame and guilt and self-hatred,
(26:48):
it's so difficult to take positive action.
One of the most important pieces of positive action around dealing with shame
seems to be breaking the silence,
having the intention to reach out to others and take that brave step and have conversations,
whether it's with a friend or another coach or therapist is so important. Right.
(27:14):
And that's why, again, this conversation is possibly beginning to open up the
idea of talking to someone.
And obviously, when someone's feeling that much shame, it's so difficult.
To trust another person and figure out who that person would be,
a little bit of enough self-esteem to take the action of talking to somebody.
(27:34):
And there are many wonderful trainers out, you know, encouraging people as we
navigate through naming some of these issues in this conversation today.
Go and go do a little bit of homework. work, go to some clinics,
audit some lessons, engage in community, seeing what's out there,
(27:57):
because there's also a lot of good.
I agree with you. I mean, there are so many people who,
and so many technologies and so much knowledge we have now about how to train
in a way that's compassionate in relation to the horse's inner world and how
they think if someone's stuck and and they're feeling badly,
but they're still rationalizing what they're doing.
(28:19):
It's just difficult to even know that there's something out there.
We love our horses, and there's so many people out there to talk to if the window can open a little bit.
Just wanted to touch back in on the images for a moment, because we know from
viewing images in the news,
(28:41):
we're talking about one piece of our world where we both have been immersed.
Well, there's a lot of traumatic things going on in the world and we're absorbing those through images.
At some point, it's like it's okay not to look if you need a break.
If you choose to engage with looking at images,
(29:04):
knowing that this is a segment, we don't know what happened before,
or we don't know what happens afterwards, giving ourselves a little bit of media literacy.
If we view these things differently.
Those images may get stuck. Making a deliberate choice about whether or not
(29:24):
we're self-regulated enough to actually engage with looking in the first place.
I absolutely agree with you. We have to give ourselves permission not to look.
And if we're going to look, it's so important to understand how those images
can affect us consciously or unconsciously and what that looks like for each individual,
(29:48):
Whether it's allowing ourselves to care for ourselves in a way that acknowledges
how difficult it is to live in a world of this immediate videos of horrors, really,
between the wars and so much information that we get that is so destructive, more and more chaotic.
(30:12):
The ways that each individual finds compassion for themselves and compassion for others.
And what do you do with your anger? How can we use our anger and not feel powerless,
but use it in a productive way? Anger is helpful.
It's almost, it's so often destructive, but how can we turn it into something positive?
(30:34):
I mean, my sense is you created this podcast because you felt some maybe anger,
some need to change things,
and you transferred whatever your emotions were into something incredibly powerful
and constructive and needed in the world.
We need this. We need the conversations.
(30:56):
This is one way of doing it, using our emotions that tell us something's wrong
and making something better.
In the feelings of frustration and anger and also.
Hope for positive actions is
being adaptive and trying to be creative in engaging in change behavior.
(31:21):
And I also just wanted to know, there's a professor of equine sustainability,
Inga Wolfman, and she's written a paper recently about changing hearts and changing
minds that capability, Capability, opportunity, and motivation all influence behavior.
(31:43):
Ultimately, these determine whether behavior change is executed.
Just keeping that in mind. There's a lot of work being done out there by others
around what we can do differently in equestrian sports.
It seems like there's a growth industry with animal behaviorists as well.
(32:04):
We really are on the cusp here of doing
some good things and in particular incorporating what
can we learn from the horses because they are
so present in their world like they are present in the moment there's a lot
that they can teach us about self-regulation you know they have a response to
(32:27):
something that may be dangerous in their environment and they check it out and
then then they go back to grazing.
So they don't ever really lie to us.
They're just so immediate. They don't have an agenda and they are so forgiving.
And we need to be forgiving of ourselves.
(32:48):
And that's the only way we're going to be humane, I think.
You know, one thing I wanted to touch on is sometimes we lose in these situations
where or we're feeling stressed or we're in a long-time abusive situation or
watching it is we lose a sense of what's grounding,
what helps us get grounded, what helps us go back to grazing like the horse.
(33:13):
I think it's helpful for people to keep in their mind and what they imagine
is the best kind of supportive relationship, whether they've had a mentor in
the past or they have a friend.
And how that friend treated them, what their friend would say in this situation,
what would the friend say if they saw this happening, because it sometimes brings
(33:34):
you outside of the situation.
There's stories like the children's stories of George and Martha.
I don't know if you're familiar with those, but they are fantastic.
Fantastic. They're like one sentence on each page, short sentences.
They're for little kids.
But I always come back to those because that is the best example of how to treat
(33:56):
each other. They're forgiving.
They are accepting of each other's, I know it sounds odd, but they're accepting
of each other's oddities.
And they treat each other the way people should treat each other.
And so sometimes if people are in the situation that they're just stressed and
they're wondering about if they're being treated well or if a horse is being
(34:17):
treated well, it helps us get grounded.
It helps us go back to grazing. It helps us have compassion.
Also, I think when we can do that, it will help us take positive action.
Engaging in self-care activities you
know without sounding trite because it's out there all
the time you know we've got to practice self-care but it really is important
(34:40):
just connecting with your body and that that's actually the wonderful thing
about riding is just connecting with your body and connecting with the horse
and being so beautifully present with them in as many moments as possible.
It's not always 100% of the time, but that's what I think collectively we're,
(35:02):
striving for as well. Exactly.
It's the self-care. I agree with you. It can be.
What does that mean exactly? It's something that takes us out of our trance, our negative trance.
Like if the sort of vicarious trauma can be stuck in that, this word stuck is
very important in this conversation, can be stuck in a system,
(35:26):
in a relationship, in a process that can go on for years.
How do we get out of that? How do we wake up out of that trance?
Things like riding in the right circumstances with the right guide,
letting the horse guide us there, meditation,
if it helps us wake up, not if it re-traumatizes us, everyone will have ideas
(35:47):
about what would be the best way to get them present again, to be able to step
back and see the situation,
get out of the traumatic,
circular trance.
Touching in on the discomfort of that
is can be difficult can be painful
even though it's going to ultimately be incredibly
(36:09):
rewarding just supporting each
other while we have those difficult conversations pushing forward looking at
as many voices as possible being included in the conversation and then also
acknowledging that there are a lot of experts out there who can bring a lot to this conversation.
(36:30):
Getting outside of the tramp, getting away from it, can be desperately lonely.
This truth that you're saying here, that it is actually not,
it doesn't have to be a lonely place because there are people there outside
of it for you when you get away from it.
I think one of the reasons people don't always report things is because I think
(36:52):
they feel like there's nothing there outside, there's no,
greater systems that's going to come in and help them. They don't feel like it's safe enough.
Being motivated by an openness for growth rather than resistance saying, well, it's not me.
We can all learn here for sure.
Acknowledging also this other aspect of a fear of the lens being turned on each other.
(37:19):
You know, in any given moment, it's all part of the training process,
but that doesn't necessarily mean it's abusive and
we've all got to stop putting bits in horses
mouths you know trying to be realistic exactly
it's so like you said before sometimes
these social media posts are just one second in a beautiful ride where a horse
(37:45):
might put its head down a little too far or its mouth might be open i mean obviously
if it's something that's clearly clearly related to bad training. Okay.
It's so scary out there right now for trainers.
Everyone's very protective of worried about if someone's going to take a video
or a snapshot and put it in the wrong context when it's not deserved.
(38:08):
When it's deserved, okay. But if it's not, it's just so awful that,
you know, it makes it so we are very alone.
And then we're all worried about the next person instead
of joining together as a community it is
a problem it separates us instead of
helps instead of getting us to help each other hopefully at least some of this
(38:30):
conversation people might be able to take bits of it away you know have some
language to put around what they might be feeling or thinking or directions
they might want to go in absolutely Yeah,
so let's keep looking out for the new science that's ever evolving as well,
(38:51):
as we also look back to the past as well and learn from the good traditions
and maybe doing things a little bit more slowly in a very informed way.
Blowing it down focusing on the
well-being and relaxation and the
(39:11):
beauty in that let's hope we move in
that direction so thank you very much jane i think that's a wonderful place
to get started and hopefully people will have more conversations and even have
more ideas to to add to moving moving forward.
(39:32):
And so thank you very much for being here today and sharing your wisdoms and
expertise and insights with the listeners.
Thank you. Hopefully this is a beginning to raising consciousness and the conversation.
Thank you for tuning in today to this episode of the Inscape.
Podcast show with my special guest, Dr. Jane Carroll.
(39:55):
Please be sure to share this episode with a friend and check the subscribe or follow button.
It's free to get a reminder for more episodes.
If you'd like to contact us, please reach out to us on Instagram at InScapeQuest.
And remember, this podcast is about dealing with personal trauma related to
(40:17):
the alleged abuse of animals.
It contains a discussion of recent public allegations about the abuse of dressage horses.
The participants in this discussion have no personal knowledge as to the truth
or falsity of any of these allegations,
and nothing in this podcast is intended to comment on or should be interpreted
(40:37):
as commenting on the truth or falsity of any allegations.
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