February 19, 2024 • 27 mins
Welcome to an engrossing episode of Inscape Quest podcast where your host, Trudi Howley, engages in an enlightening discussion with Ann Satori, psychologist, psychoanalyst, and poet. In this episode, Ann shares her inspiring journey, using poetry as a therapeutic tool while working with veterans suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). She also delves into the emotional impact of war on military personnel, using her poem 'Soul Murder' as an illustrative example.
This episode takes you through the concept of moral injury, the dilemmas faced by veterans upon their return from active duty, and the misconceptions surrounding PTSD. You'll also explore the role of neuroscience in understanding PTSD. Moreover, Ann highlights the cultural, political, and military dialogues around PTSD, moral injury, and veterans' welfare, advocating for a collective effort to aid these brave individuals post-war.
Focusing on the unique and complex mental health needs of military veterans, this conversation provides insights into the significant role of professional training and psychoeducation. It also uncovers unconventional therapeutic methods such as equine therapy and the Warrior Story Field, emphasizing their impact on healing and growth.
We also delve into the challenges veterans encounter when transitioning from active service to civilian life - issues like isolation, guilt, shame, drug and alcohol abuse which significantly contribute to high suicide rates. Concluding the conversation, we discuss the vital role community support and understanding play in facilitating this transition.
We wrap up the episode highlighting several resources for those wishing to learn more about military culture and veterans' experiences. Leaving the discussion on a hopeful note, we affirm the availability of help and resources for our veterans, appreciating our guest's dedication to enhancing tolerance and resilience among military veterans. Listen to this episode to expand your understanding of this complex and crucial topic.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello podcast listeners. Thank you for tuning in today to the Inscape Quest podcast show.
I am your host, Trudi Howley.
Here I am talking with people about how they engage with their relationships, work, and passions.
Please subscribe and share this show with a friend and thanks to you,
(00:25):
we can grow meaningful conversations together, one episode at a time.
Today, I'm sitting down with a favorite of mine, Ann Satori.
Anne is a Benedictine Oblate Candidate at St.
Placid's Monastery, a mother to a creative darling daughter,
(00:49):
a psychologist and psychoanalyst.
Anne Satori is often trying to find a way to express her relationship with the
divine, humanity, animals, nature, love, and war.
She is giving poetry a try.
She spends each morning contemplating the beauty in our world,
(01:14):
praying for restraint and right speech, and for the ability to keep listening
to veterans share their heartfelt and painful experiences in the military.
Welcome, Anne. I'm really excited to talk to you today and to learn more about
(01:38):
your experiences experiences working with veterans.
Welcome. Thanks for having me, Trudy. It's good to be here today.
As I know you've been using poetry as a way of expressing yourself,
how did you come to discover poetry was a great outlet for you?
(01:59):
It really came as a surprise.
I've been working working with veterans for many years. And throughout that
process, I have felt so many things, you know, really furious about the things
I've heard about the injustices.
I have felt very sad, really appreciated learning so much from them.
(02:23):
I have always been someone one who spends time in nature to help me regulate
my nervous system and bring me back to earth and keep me grounded.
And I started to do some work at the Warrior Story Field, which is a nonprofit
that works with veterans, and we do metal work.
(02:46):
And one of the members there suggested a writing course, which I took.
And suddenly, I started to write.
Anne, I'm really struck by the number of beautiful poems that you've shared
with me ahead of being able to talk today.
And one of them in particular really stood out to me, which is called Soul Mud.
(03:09):
And I'm hoping that you're willing to read that to our listeners.
Could you maybe explain how you came to choose that particular title?
I remember the term soul murder when I was in psychoanalytic training and Leonard
(03:31):
Schenfeld coined this term and he talks about it as the the perpetuation of
brutal or subtle acts against children or adults.
And this results in an emotional bondage to the abuser and psychic and spiritual annihilation.
When people in power commit, facilitate, or justify crimes in the guise of discipline,
(03:56):
parenting, or war, profound inner confusion results in our developing psyche.
I think when we see sadistic parents or leaders as our models,
their wounds become our wounds.
Their patterns can be perpetuated for generations.
What I began to hear from many men and women in war is that they were forced
(04:23):
to kill when it wasn't necessary.
This poem is written to the leaders who dishonor those who serve when they enforce
sadistic, self-serving acts.
And then when pardoned by our country's leaders, which I see as another sadistic
act, that ignorance perpetuates the cycle of abuse and suicide,
(04:46):
which we know is very high in the veteran population.
So that's very powerful in terms of trying to understand and share to the rest of the world.
Would you be willing to go ahead and read your poem?
The poem is called Soul Murder.
(05:07):
I don't want to know your name. I will taunt and jeer. You will kill for me.
Pull the trigger. Shoot to the field.
Innocent screams bleeding broken
hearts where there is muck you will find me hovering seeking brass and blood
(05:30):
bend and burn the brass make it your own lost soul devil that i am devil that i I am devil that I am.
Thank you, Anne. That's bringing up so many questions as well as being able
(05:52):
to sit and reflect on your words.
I'm wondering if we can just note for a moment how PTSD comes in so many different forms in veterans.
Taking a moment to reflect on how do you manage not only dealing with their PTSD,
(06:14):
but finding the capacity in yourself to hear these painful experiences?
It is difficult, Trudy. As I started to interview veterans over the last years,
I did not realize how complex this work would be and how powerful and how emotional
(06:39):
I would feel right along with them actually.
PTSD does not have, I don't think the general public has a good understanding of PTSD.
And I think when it comes to veterans, there's
always a negative you know a veteran has
PTSD and they're going to lose control or they're
(07:02):
going to shoot someone and that it's
a very dangerous and scary concept what we
know in neuroscience is and I say
it simply to them in training it begins
that when they're trained to be in a
state of hyper arousal on alert they have
to be wary of everything around them they're protecting their brothers and sisters
(07:27):
they're trying to make sure they aren't hurt or killed as well and that requires
an amount of attention that's really quite extreme.
What they don't realize is that when they come home, that activation in their
body wants to be kindled.
(07:50):
What that means is that like starting a fire, their brain has been kindled.
And they look for situations to activate their brain. And this is not a conscious process.
But it's why we see many go into the police force and first responder jobs.
Jobs and even though I'd rather not have anybody but them take care of me on
(08:14):
the street it really probably isn't the best for their PTSD and I see PTSD as
a brain issue and a heart and soul issue is what they've taught me.
I love the fact that you bring the heart and soul
into the brain issue as
well and combining those things because you know I
(08:34):
understand the stigma around this conversation we're
having today spouses and partners and
the general public often don't get
it don't want to talk about it as we
navigate learning how to have real conversations and support these people that
(08:55):
do live in extreme stress you know as you said neuroscience has shown that brain
changes occur when a person is under extreme stress?
Also, how do we manage psychosocial interventions after the fact?
And I know it's a big question.
Trudy, I think what surprised many things, but the one that struck my heart
(09:20):
is when a gentleman who was in special forces and a lead team who'd been deployed
to Afghanistan six times.
He was out of the army now. Right in the middle of our interview,
he holds his arms like he's holding an enchant and says.
(09:40):
I don't know if I'm allowed to love my son. This is my first child.
When I look at him, all I can see is shooting the father, the Afghani father
and his little boy hanging on his legs.
And he'll never have his son.
And I go over and over in my mind, and I struggle with being connected to my son.
(10:06):
This is what I hear more and more of. And there's a term called moral injury
that is used now to describe these kind of situations where, like this gentleman,
his job was to kill, he did kill, and he has profound feelings about it now.
(10:27):
I have many men and women talk to me about these feelings of guilt or shame or blame. lane.
Sometimes it's the gentleman who sprains his ankle and his buddy has to go on
the mission and doesn't come back.
It's the woman who's a medic who can't save everyone or has to make difficult
(10:49):
choices in who she treats medically.
These are very difficult decisions for any
of us as adults and then here we
have these people in their late teens and
20s and 30s it affects
who they are i'm wondering if you
could maybe expand on what the definition
(11:12):
of moral injury is yes in
situations such as military training
or war there are often traumas that
occur there are motor vehicle accidents there's sadistic
training there's being
out and in combat and
(11:34):
killing and when someone does
something that goes against their beliefs it's referred
to as an act of commission and when they fail to do something in line with their
beliefs it's an act of omission they may experience betrayal from leaderships
or others in power or peers they may have joined peers and actions in war that
(11:59):
they would not otherwise do.
So it's a distressing psychological, social, and often spiritual dilemma for people.
And so it's an injury that occurs in response to acting or witnessing behaviors
that go against your values or moral beliefs.
And these often result in guilt, shame, disgust, anger, and feeling remorse.
(12:26):
And often it gets in the way of connecting in a real way with others when they
come home, with their children, with their husbands and wives in the community.
I think we're finding that it also is another factor in increasing the risk
of suicide. Thank you for expanding on that.
(12:49):
From a cultural and political point of view,
there's a lot of bipartisan talk around the subject of the military,
but I personally feel we do need defense,
as I'm sure many others do as well.
That we find a way to support these young people and do the military differently.
(13:18):
There's so many ways we could have this challenging conversation today.
Ultimately hoping that we can find ways to support people.
Would you like to speak to that a little more in terms of, I know you've already
mentioned education and psychoeducation.
(13:41):
Right, Trudy, it is complicated. I think if we have people who are trained specifically
in working with military.
And are educated in the complexities that could actually provide care that's
(14:01):
frequent and in depth, that it would be helpful.
The veterans that I've seen, and this is over 4,000, some are getting good care,
and yet many aren't seen enough.
I know you've done some really beautiful,
(14:23):
creative projects with veterans outside of a typical office setting that you've
done equine therapy and you're involved in the warrior story field.
So I'd love it if you could just share some of those two things so we can just
(14:44):
broaden our understanding. Yes.
What I found over the years is that veterans working with each other on projects
such as the warrior story field and in equine therapy,
I think, offers them something different than sitting in a chair with a therapist.
(15:04):
I think for most veterans, that's not very appealing. healing.
Equine therapy, I found that veterans really do connect with horses and horses
connect with veterans and they seem to go right to the heart.
Much more acceptable for a veteran to accept a horse therapy than it is humans therapy.
(15:27):
Yeah, it's interesting. I'm just thinking of a particular example.
When I worked with a group of veterans and we
had the herd of horses and I'd invited one particular
person to go a horse that
he wanted to work with and his way
of doing it was to create chaos
(15:50):
and have the whole herd running and separate the one horse he wanted to work
with from the rest of the field worked with other ways about maybe approaching
the horse quietly and being relational to me there was a very clear differentiation of.
(16:11):
Being in active service and the chaotic part and maybe finding an alternative
way of relating which would translate to coming home and being with others.
That's true and I and that's what we see we actually did a study where we looked
at veterans working with horses over time and this This was a group of about eight veterans,
(16:38):
Vietnam veterans, who were seen weekly for two years.
And what we looked at was, would their relationships with people in the rest of their life improve?
Would their ability to manage their emotions improve, for two examples? And they did.
Courses teach you how to be in the present.
(17:01):
And we work a lot with
veterans in their bodies to be
able to find a place where they can feel
calm and safe yeah so that
makes sense in terms of educating them through the experience of being with
the horses to move from this state of being in intense stress or trauma into
(17:27):
base functioning basic relationships.
I think what the Warrior Story Field offers, which is a different.
Therapeutic method, is it's a group of veterans and civilians who are creating two metal sculptures.
(17:48):
And one is a dragon representing war, and the other is a phoenix representing
transformation. And this project has been going on for over seven years.
The sculptures are 16 foot high, and the veterans meet weekly, several days a week.
And they've created a community of truth and honesty and love and work together.
(18:16):
And they're creating something tangible, which I think is so important for veterans
who are used to working together,
having a project together, having a mission and accomplishing the mission.
That's really making me because this buddy system that the military engage in,
(18:38):
it's like they're literally depending on each other for their lives.
So I love the way you're describing this as a community project that they can come together.
And work on something because that's so ingrained in the military.
You know, I wonder about isolation as a factor in the high suicide rates for veterans.
(19:06):
I think many veterans feel overwhelmed and they feel ashamed by what they're experiencing.
Don't have the resources either within their family or community.
What we're finding is the moral injury that we talked about previously too,
feelings of guilt and shame for actions that they participated in war,
(19:30):
so contributes to suicide.
And then I think we know drugs and alcohol as well.
In terms of us as a general population and community supporting this intense,
extreme life that Ditarans are engaged in,
(19:51):
how can we help them shift in and out to normal life, for want of a better word?
Like shifting in and out from
being involved in extreme combat
where you're killing people and then you've
got to come home to your partner and parent that
(20:11):
seems to be a really challenging thing to do and how can we help and not judge
those people that are faced with that challenge those are good questions trudy
and i've asked myself that as well i find that the programs where there's men.
Whether it's another veteran in the community who has successfully transitioned
(20:37):
in their life and will to work with some of the younger veterans coming now can be very helpful.
So as you talk about younger veterans as well,
with these young people that may actually have some psychological trauma before
(20:58):
they even become active military.
How can they be supported in the very early stages of their career and trainings?
That is a difficult question, I think. There are many that I've met with over
the years that had already experienced sexual abuse, physical abuse, extreme poverty,
(21:23):
neglect, and they really often go into the military looking for leadership, looking for a way out.
And that can
occur in the military and it
can occur when there's leadership that's educated
and sensitive to these issues unfortunately that
(21:48):
doesn't always happen in fact their trauma
can be exacerbated with the idea of
being warrior ready all the time and how drugs and alcohol are such a part of
the culture with pain medication and thinking about this time to regroup is
(22:11):
pretty limited in the military.
The general public can kind of get real about what we're asking of these people to do.
Give us the luxuries that we can enjoy as a free population,
be less judging and more supportive and more serving of the military.
(22:37):
How can we start? Do you have a place to suggest where the average person can just start?
To learn about the military, I think there's so so much online now.
There's so many good books that are out there.
And I think the recent documentary, Father, Soldier, Son, that's on Netflix,
(23:03):
I believe, is one place to understand,
how powerful the military culture is within one family.
And it's one aspect of it. There's a book called Downrange from Iraq and Back
that talks about a veteran's experiences coming home.
(23:30):
I think for those who like to know more about equine therapy,
there's a wonderful documentary called Riding My Way Back.
And it's about a veteran who was very suicidal and started to get involved in
an equine program in Washington state, was transformed by those experiences.
(23:55):
There is hope. And I think that's what I always go back to, that there are resources, there is hope.
I think what's difficult is the veterans often aren't informed of the things that are available.
Well, thank you for sharing your experiences and those resources.
(24:17):
And we'll certainly add some other resources
at the end of this podcast in terms
of hope and building this
capacity for tolerance and
resilience amongst veterans and those
that are helping them as well I just
(24:38):
want to say thank you for your work
that you've contributed to them and to
come back to you and just kind
of recapping where you find
your patience and forgiveness here in
the work that you do what what nourishes you
(24:59):
today again my writing does
my relationships with friends being in
nature and being with the
veterans is very life-giving in
its own way I really believe in
unity and the community reach
out and help each other we have stronger communities well
(25:22):
thank you so much for being here
today and contributing to the education of our listeners around this very complex
and important topic so thank you thank you truly Thank you.
(25:46):
If you or you know someone who needs to get help now,
you can reach out to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK,
8255, and press 1 if you're a veteran.
You can also get information or chat online at the Veterans Crisis Line.
(26:07):
The following websites may have information of interest to you,
ptsd.va.gov, militaryhelpline.org, and objectivezero.org.
Be well and take care.
(26:29):
Thank you for listening to the InScape Quest podcast with Trudy Howley.
If you like this show and want to send questions or submit topics you'd like
to hear about on your podcast, you can find me on Instagram at InScapeQuest.
Thank you for listening and for your shares, subscriptions and downloads. Cheerio.
(26:55):
Music.
If you or you know someone who needs
to get help now you can reach out to
the national suicide prevention lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK
8255 and press one if you're a veteran you can also get information or chat
(27:21):
online at the veterans crisis line the following websites may have in information
of interest to you ptsd.va.gov,
militaryhelpline.org and objectivezero.org be well and take care.
Hello podcast listeners. Thank you for tuning in today to the Inscape Quest podcast show.
I am your host, Trudi Howley.
Here I am talking with people about how they engage with their relationships, work, and passions.
Please subscribe and share this show with a friend and thanks to you,
(00:25):
we can grow meaningful conversations together, one episode at a time.
Today, I'm sitting down with a favorite of mine, Ann Satori.
Anne is a Benedictine Oblate Candidate at St.
Placid's Monastery, a mother to a creative darling daughter,
(00:49):
a psychologist and psychoanalyst.
Anne Satori is often trying to find a way to express her relationship with the
divine, humanity, animals, nature, love, and war.
She is giving poetry a try.
She spends each morning contemplating the beauty in our world,
(01:14):
praying for restraint and right speech, and for the ability to keep listening
to veterans share their heartfelt and painful experiences in the military.
Welcome, Anne. I'm really excited to talk to you today and to learn more about
(01:38):
your experiences experiences working with veterans.
Welcome. Thanks for having me, Trudy. It's good to be here today.
As I know you've been using poetry as a way of expressing yourself,
how did you come to discover poetry was a great outlet for you?
(01:59):
It really came as a surprise.
I've been working working with veterans for many years. And throughout that
process, I have felt so many things, you know, really furious about the things
I've heard about the injustices.
I have felt very sad, really appreciated learning so much from them.
(02:23):
I have always been someone one who spends time in nature to help me regulate
my nervous system and bring me back to earth and keep me grounded.
And I started to do some work at the Warrior Story Field, which is a nonprofit
that works with veterans, and we do metal work.
(02:46):
And one of the members there suggested a writing course, which I took.
And suddenly, I started to write.
Anne, I'm really struck by the number of beautiful poems that you've shared
with me ahead of being able to talk today.
And one of them in particular really stood out to me, which is called Soul Mud.
(03:09):
And I'm hoping that you're willing to read that to our listeners.
Could you maybe explain how you came to choose that particular title?
I remember the term soul murder when I was in psychoanalytic training and Leonard
(03:31):
Schenfeld coined this term and he talks about it as the the perpetuation of
brutal or subtle acts against children or adults.
And this results in an emotional bondage to the abuser and psychic and spiritual annihilation.
When people in power commit, facilitate, or justify crimes in the guise of discipline,
(03:56):
parenting, or war, profound inner confusion results in our developing psyche.
I think when we see sadistic parents or leaders as our models,
their wounds become our wounds.
Their patterns can be perpetuated for generations.
What I began to hear from many men and women in war is that they were forced
(04:23):
to kill when it wasn't necessary.
This poem is written to the leaders who dishonor those who serve when they enforce
sadistic, self-serving acts.
And then when pardoned by our country's leaders, which I see as another sadistic
act, that ignorance perpetuates the cycle of abuse and suicide,
(04:46):
which we know is very high in the veteran population.
So that's very powerful in terms of trying to understand and share to the rest of the world.
Would you be willing to go ahead and read your poem?
The poem is called Soul Murder.
(05:07):
I don't want to know your name. I will taunt and jeer. You will kill for me.
Pull the trigger. Shoot to the field.
Innocent screams bleeding broken
hearts where there is muck you will find me hovering seeking brass and blood
(05:30):
bend and burn the brass make it your own lost soul devil that i am devil that i I am devil that I am.
Thank you, Anne. That's bringing up so many questions as well as being able
(05:52):
to sit and reflect on your words.
I'm wondering if we can just note for a moment how PTSD comes in so many different forms in veterans.
Taking a moment to reflect on how do you manage not only dealing with their PTSD,
(06:14):
but finding the capacity in yourself to hear these painful experiences?
It is difficult, Trudy. As I started to interview veterans over the last years,
I did not realize how complex this work would be and how powerful and how emotional
(06:39):
I would feel right along with them actually.
PTSD does not have, I don't think the general public has a good understanding of PTSD.
And I think when it comes to veterans, there's
always a negative you know a veteran has
PTSD and they're going to lose control or they're
(07:02):
going to shoot someone and that it's
a very dangerous and scary concept what we
know in neuroscience is and I say
it simply to them in training it begins
that when they're trained to be in a
state of hyper arousal on alert they have
to be wary of everything around them they're protecting their brothers and sisters
(07:27):
they're trying to make sure they aren't hurt or killed as well and that requires
an amount of attention that's really quite extreme.
What they don't realize is that when they come home, that activation in their
body wants to be kindled.
(07:50):
What that means is that like starting a fire, their brain has been kindled.
And they look for situations to activate their brain. And this is not a conscious process.
But it's why we see many go into the police force and first responder jobs.
Jobs and even though I'd rather not have anybody but them take care of me on
(08:14):
the street it really probably isn't the best for their PTSD and I see PTSD as
a brain issue and a heart and soul issue is what they've taught me.
I love the fact that you bring the heart and soul
into the brain issue as
well and combining those things because you know I
(08:34):
understand the stigma around this conversation we're
having today spouses and partners and
the general public often don't get
it don't want to talk about it as we
navigate learning how to have real conversations and support these people that
(08:55):
do live in extreme stress you know as you said neuroscience has shown that brain
changes occur when a person is under extreme stress?
Also, how do we manage psychosocial interventions after the fact?
And I know it's a big question.
Trudy, I think what surprised many things, but the one that struck my heart
(09:20):
is when a gentleman who was in special forces and a lead team who'd been deployed
to Afghanistan six times.
He was out of the army now. Right in the middle of our interview,
he holds his arms like he's holding an enchant and says.
(09:40):
I don't know if I'm allowed to love my son. This is my first child.
When I look at him, all I can see is shooting the father, the Afghani father
and his little boy hanging on his legs.
And he'll never have his son.
And I go over and over in my mind, and I struggle with being connected to my son.
(10:06):
This is what I hear more and more of. And there's a term called moral injury
that is used now to describe these kind of situations where, like this gentleman,
his job was to kill, he did kill, and he has profound feelings about it now.
(10:27):
I have many men and women talk to me about these feelings of guilt or shame or blame. lane.
Sometimes it's the gentleman who sprains his ankle and his buddy has to go on
the mission and doesn't come back.
It's the woman who's a medic who can't save everyone or has to make difficult
(10:49):
choices in who she treats medically.
These are very difficult decisions for any
of us as adults and then here we
have these people in their late teens and
20s and 30s it affects
who they are i'm wondering if you
could maybe expand on what the definition
(11:12):
of moral injury is yes in
situations such as military training
or war there are often traumas that
occur there are motor vehicle accidents there's sadistic
training there's being
out and in combat and
(11:34):
killing and when someone does
something that goes against their beliefs it's referred
to as an act of commission and when they fail to do something in line with their
beliefs it's an act of omission they may experience betrayal from leaderships
or others in power or peers they may have joined peers and actions in war that
(11:59):
they would not otherwise do.
So it's a distressing psychological, social, and often spiritual dilemma for people.
And so it's an injury that occurs in response to acting or witnessing behaviors
that go against your values or moral beliefs.
And these often result in guilt, shame, disgust, anger, and feeling remorse.
(12:26):
And often it gets in the way of connecting in a real way with others when they
come home, with their children, with their husbands and wives in the community.
I think we're finding that it also is another factor in increasing the risk
of suicide. Thank you for expanding on that.
(12:49):
From a cultural and political point of view,
there's a lot of bipartisan talk around the subject of the military,
but I personally feel we do need defense,
as I'm sure many others do as well.
That we find a way to support these young people and do the military differently.
(13:18):
There's so many ways we could have this challenging conversation today.
Ultimately hoping that we can find ways to support people.
Would you like to speak to that a little more in terms of, I know you've already
mentioned education and psychoeducation.
(13:41):
Right, Trudy, it is complicated. I think if we have people who are trained specifically
in working with military.
And are educated in the complexities that could actually provide care that's
(14:01):
frequent and in depth, that it would be helpful.
The veterans that I've seen, and this is over 4,000, some are getting good care,
and yet many aren't seen enough.
I know you've done some really beautiful,
(14:23):
creative projects with veterans outside of a typical office setting that you've
done equine therapy and you're involved in the warrior story field.
So I'd love it if you could just share some of those two things so we can just
(14:44):
broaden our understanding. Yes.
What I found over the years is that veterans working with each other on projects
such as the warrior story field and in equine therapy,
I think, offers them something different than sitting in a chair with a therapist.
(15:04):
I think for most veterans, that's not very appealing. healing.
Equine therapy, I found that veterans really do connect with horses and horses
connect with veterans and they seem to go right to the heart.
Much more acceptable for a veteran to accept a horse therapy than it is humans therapy.
(15:27):
Yeah, it's interesting. I'm just thinking of a particular example.
When I worked with a group of veterans and we
had the herd of horses and I'd invited one particular
person to go a horse that
he wanted to work with and his way
of doing it was to create chaos
(15:50):
and have the whole herd running and separate the one horse he wanted to work
with from the rest of the field worked with other ways about maybe approaching
the horse quietly and being relational to me there was a very clear differentiation of.
(16:11):
Being in active service and the chaotic part and maybe finding an alternative
way of relating which would translate to coming home and being with others.
That's true and I and that's what we see we actually did a study where we looked
at veterans working with horses over time and this This was a group of about eight veterans,
(16:38):
Vietnam veterans, who were seen weekly for two years.
And what we looked at was, would their relationships with people in the rest of their life improve?
Would their ability to manage their emotions improve, for two examples? And they did.
Courses teach you how to be in the present.
(17:01):
And we work a lot with
veterans in their bodies to be
able to find a place where they can feel
calm and safe yeah so that
makes sense in terms of educating them through the experience of being with
the horses to move from this state of being in intense stress or trauma into
(17:27):
base functioning basic relationships.
I think what the Warrior Story Field offers, which is a different.
Therapeutic method, is it's a group of veterans and civilians who are creating two metal sculptures.
(17:48):
And one is a dragon representing war, and the other is a phoenix representing
transformation. And this project has been going on for over seven years.
The sculptures are 16 foot high, and the veterans meet weekly, several days a week.
And they've created a community of truth and honesty and love and work together.
(18:16):
And they're creating something tangible, which I think is so important for veterans
who are used to working together,
having a project together, having a mission and accomplishing the mission.
That's really making me because this buddy system that the military engage in,
(18:38):
it's like they're literally depending on each other for their lives.
So I love the way you're describing this as a community project that they can come together.
And work on something because that's so ingrained in the military.
You know, I wonder about isolation as a factor in the high suicide rates for veterans.
(19:06):
I think many veterans feel overwhelmed and they feel ashamed by what they're experiencing.
Don't have the resources either within their family or community.
What we're finding is the moral injury that we talked about previously too,
feelings of guilt and shame for actions that they participated in war,
(19:30):
so contributes to suicide.
And then I think we know drugs and alcohol as well.
In terms of us as a general population and community supporting this intense,
extreme life that Ditarans are engaged in,
(19:51):
how can we help them shift in and out to normal life, for want of a better word?
Like shifting in and out from
being involved in extreme combat
where you're killing people and then you've
got to come home to your partner and parent that
(20:11):
seems to be a really challenging thing to do and how can we help and not judge
those people that are faced with that challenge those are good questions trudy
and i've asked myself that as well i find that the programs where there's men.
Whether it's another veteran in the community who has successfully transitioned
(20:37):
in their life and will to work with some of the younger veterans coming now can be very helpful.
So as you talk about younger veterans as well,
with these young people that may actually have some psychological trauma before
(20:58):
they even become active military.
How can they be supported in the very early stages of their career and trainings?
That is a difficult question, I think. There are many that I've met with over
the years that had already experienced sexual abuse, physical abuse, extreme poverty,
(21:23):
neglect, and they really often go into the military looking for leadership, looking for a way out.
And that can
occur in the military and it
can occur when there's leadership that's educated
and sensitive to these issues unfortunately that
(21:48):
doesn't always happen in fact their trauma
can be exacerbated with the idea of
being warrior ready all the time and how drugs and alcohol are such a part of
the culture with pain medication and thinking about this time to regroup is
(22:11):
pretty limited in the military.
The general public can kind of get real about what we're asking of these people to do.
Give us the luxuries that we can enjoy as a free population,
be less judging and more supportive and more serving of the military.
(22:37):
How can we start? Do you have a place to suggest where the average person can just start?
To learn about the military, I think there's so so much online now.
There's so many good books that are out there.
And I think the recent documentary, Father, Soldier, Son, that's on Netflix,
(23:03):
I believe, is one place to understand,
how powerful the military culture is within one family.
And it's one aspect of it. There's a book called Downrange from Iraq and Back
that talks about a veteran's experiences coming home.
(23:30):
I think for those who like to know more about equine therapy,
there's a wonderful documentary called Riding My Way Back.
And it's about a veteran who was very suicidal and started to get involved in
an equine program in Washington state, was transformed by those experiences.
(23:55):
There is hope. And I think that's what I always go back to, that there are resources, there is hope.
I think what's difficult is the veterans often aren't informed of the things that are available.
Well, thank you for sharing your experiences and those resources.
(24:17):
And we'll certainly add some other resources
at the end of this podcast in terms
of hope and building this
capacity for tolerance and
resilience amongst veterans and those
that are helping them as well I just
(24:38):
want to say thank you for your work
that you've contributed to them and to
come back to you and just kind
of recapping where you find
your patience and forgiveness here in
the work that you do what what nourishes you
(24:59):
today again my writing does
my relationships with friends being in
nature and being with the
veterans is very life-giving in
its own way I really believe in
unity and the community reach
out and help each other we have stronger communities well
(25:22):
thank you so much for being here
today and contributing to the education of our listeners around this very complex
and important topic so thank you thank you truly Thank you.
(25:46):
If you or you know someone who needs to get help now,
you can reach out to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK,
8255, and press 1 if you're a veteran.
You can also get information or chat online at the Veterans Crisis Line.
(26:07):
The following websites may have information of interest to you,
ptsd.va.gov, militaryhelpline.org, and objectivezero.org.
Be well and take care.
(26:29):
Thank you for listening to the InScape Quest podcast with Trudy Howley.
If you like this show and want to send questions or submit topics you'd like
to hear about on your podcast, you can find me on Instagram at InScapeQuest.
Thank you for listening and for your shares, subscriptions and downloads. Cheerio.
(26:55):
Music.
If you or you know someone who needs
to get help now you can reach out to
the national suicide prevention lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK
8255 and press one if you're a veteran you can also get information or chat
(27:21):
online at the veterans crisis line the following websites may have in information
of interest to you ptsd.va.gov,
militaryhelpline.org and objectivezero.org be well and take care.
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