March 24, 2024 • 45 mins
Discover the intricacies of horse history and the undeniable impact of these splendid creatures on human culture in the latest podcast episode of Inscape Quest, "A Journey Through History: The Coevolution of Humans and Horses".
Accompany us in exploring vast territories – from prehistoric North America to the Arabian and Iberian Peninsulas – as presenter Trudi Howley and her guest, experienced Grand Prix rider and equine historian, Jessica Greer, venture into the fascinating evolutionary journey of the horse. Touching on the themes of domestication, spread into foreign lands such as America and the creation of distinct horse breeds, we venture deep into the past to understand the complex past of North America's 'wild horse culture'.
Our conversation doesn't stop at history. We also shed light on modern controversies surrounding wild mustangs' management, exploring the intricate bond between humanity and "feral" horse populations. Learn about the pivotal role of horses during the Industrial Revolution, expanding the narrative beyond the common notion of the horse as an obsolete creature in a machine-dominated world.
The discussion extends to the evolution of urban horses, admitting a deeper understanding of their daily life and the massive influence they bore on human diseases. Discover unsettling issues and the transformative rise of animal welfare organizations. We reveal riveting details about horses adapting to diverse global regions and their irreplaceable impact on various cultures. Delve into unique horse breeds, their juxtaposing bloodlines and evolving perceptions of their worth.
The human-horse connection is full of profound lessons - leadership, communication, and genuine bond creation. These insights and much more await you in "A Journey Through History: The co-evolution of Humans and Horses". Don't miss out on this remarkable exploration of the enduring and transformative relationship between humans and horses.
The participants in this discussion have no personal knowledge as to the truth or falsity of any allegations of abuse of horses and nothing in this podcast is intended to comment on or should be interpreted as commenting on the truth or falsity of any allegation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to InScape Quests, where insightful conversations redefine perspectives.
I'm your host, Trudy Howley. Join me as together we delve into discussions about
relationships, work, and passion, unlocking profound insights that may shape our lives.
This is InScape Quests, where the journey within meets the quest for understanding.
(00:25):
Welcome to my guest today, Jessica Greer. Jessica is a Grand Prix rider and trainer in Colorado.
She's also a master's equine historian.
Jessica has married these two passions, history and horses, and today we discuss
the history of the horse.
(00:52):
Jessica, welcome today. I'm so excited to have you here for this conversation.
I've been wanting to talk to you for a really long time about the history of the horse.
So I'm happy that we can get started today.
Me too. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
So we have this wonderful co-evolution with the horse, which basically means
(01:17):
that two different species have this intertwined relationship that have affected each other.
And this co-evolution really
is in every culture in history
throughout the world anywhere from mongolia japan spain austria ireland argentina
(01:38):
canada france south america and so on and that relationship continues today
where do we start there's so many different places to start.
There is.
I think it's best to begin with where the horse, essentially the horse is indigenous
(01:59):
to North America, which is very unique because there was a period where they
were not in North America.
So the horse began in North America, and when I say this, I'm not talking about
our modern horse that we would think of today,
but a horse similar that becomes the modern Equus that during the Ice Age went
(02:23):
over the Bering Strait land bridge and spread into the Asian steppes.
And there is where the first domestication of the horse occurred.
And from there spread into areas such as Arabia and the Iberian Peninsula,
where we see horse breeds such as the Arabian horse.
(02:44):
Spanish barb, which to this day, we can essentially trace all of the ancestry
of our current horses that we ride to these lines.
And this the horse did not arrive
back or wasn't reintroduced into the americas
until the spanish came with their i guess
you would say their voyages to the new world where
(03:06):
they landed first in the caribbean islands with horses
and then later in mexico and when
the horse returned to its native area where
it evolved they just spread like wildfire
and what we now know as north america then
that was in around the 15th century
and i think there were there weren't
(03:28):
that many horses that came over then at that
time no i believe the
initial number that they brought was 28 which
they brought by ship which when you think
about that imagine a three-month voyage across.
Across the ocean from Spain to Mexico and
(03:48):
these horses had to endure this and
the storms and they used crane to get
the horses on like a modified rope and
pulley system to get the horses into the water off the
ship and they'd have to swim on the shore that's pretty incredible when we think
about today that oh my horses fly on planes and what a important aspect of having
(04:13):
having well-trained horses these days to be able to fly easily and in comfort.
Absolutely. And other things that we have today, castration,
a lot of that wasn't happening.
So when these horses then were in these new lands, oftentimes they were left
(04:33):
to their own devices, so to speak. They're roaming.
So you can see where some probably just wandered off and never returned and
started their own bands of horses.
And then from there, these wild horse populations erupted quite quickly.
And out of that, where we see
then later on this sort of horse culture that we think of when we think of the
(04:58):
American West of cowboys breaking quote-unquote horses or taming these wild
horses or indigenous Americans who were equestrianized and had their own empire,
which enabled them to have their own stance against.
The colonization that was occurring to them so the horse
(05:20):
was very significant i know that there's a
lot of meaningful ways that western cowboys
and indigenous populations engaged with
their horses understanding that capturing
those mustangs and taming them actually
enhanced the prestige of the
(05:40):
the indigenous warriors and stealing horses
from the enemy was actually quite a noble
way to get an
animal is that right yes certain
indigenous nation particular lakota and they became who they were based on being
(06:02):
equestrians and in addition to that they
They changed from being a sort of hunter-gatherer to a sequestrionized,
able to do more.
They could hunt bison. They could become more warring against other groups.
And groups such as Comanche had their own empire, so to speak.
(06:23):
If you look at it from the standpoint of they had their own interactions.
Their own territories, their own raids, slave trade, you name it.
Going on with oftentimes working with spanish
colonizers and later french and later when
our country became america american which up
(06:43):
until the homestead act when people started
pushing more west and european colonizers
turned americans started moving westward in which
those lands were contested and that the other
narrative we hear about the cowboys versus the indians in
the wild wild west but the horse enabled those
indigenous to stay on a bit longer than the
(07:06):
groups of indigenous who were not equestrianized i'd
love it if you might just touch on what we now know as the western quarter horse
and the breeding and how that evolved so i did research specifically surrounding
the colorado version or the development of the color of the quarter horse and And found that,
(07:29):
so we had these Spanish horses who arrived in Mexico with Cortez that moved
northward, that they're living in the areas of New Mexico,
Arizona, Utah, Colorado.
And in the East, Spanish were also in Florida, people in that area of the country
(07:49):
referred to these feral horses that kind of escaped from the Spanish control.
They called them Indian ponies. That was their term for these horses that indigenous peoples had.
And later, if you think Northern and East,
Jamestown, New York, et cetera, these colonies that were the English settled,
(08:11):
at the time at this time that this
is occurring in the americas and england they're developing what
will later be the thoroughbred so the english start
bringing in the thoroughbred so you see this
unique mixture of these horses that are
of spanish descent mostly spanish barbs then later
the thoroughbred influence and they merge together when we
(08:32):
bring the events such as civil war pushed
these populations more towards the west and you
mix these two populations then of the native indigenous
colonies which are now the
mustangs that we think of today merging with
these english thoroughbreds that on these borderlands are then being interbred
(08:55):
and at the time it wasn't called a quarter horse this is also a place where
cattle are happening happening and this cattle culture and the ability to move
horses and cattle over vast distances.
And you needed these horses that were able to have the Santa Ma to do that,
were able to be quick, and in turn develops into this unique breed.
(09:17):
Eventually becomes the court horse the american court horse and
you touched on the mustangs and i think
it would be important to acknowledge that the feral
population of mustangs really is
a controversial issue currently and
i'm wondering what your personal opinion
(09:38):
or feelings are about the wild
mustang population so we
have still we have these feral horse populations in the great basin which is
parts of california most of nevada new mexico utah and this land is regulated
by the blm brookland management and this land has been a very Very interesting area.
(10:05):
In the time of World War II, this is where, for example, there was atomic bomb testing going on.
These populations of wild horses are running around out here.
They've been there forever. ever.
There was a woman named Velma Johnston. This is back in the 60s.
And there would be regular roundups occurring because at the time,
(10:28):
companies who would create dog food were like, we need meat for dog food.
So we have these wild horses. We're going to round them up. We're going to turn them into dog food.
For us, it's free other than the cost of the roundup.
This woman velma johnston lived in
the area and saw a truck a semi-truck full of wild
horses that had been rounded up and god horrible
(10:50):
things like a horse with a broken leg and blood is coming
out of the trailer and she was mortified and she was like this cannot
be this cannot be happening in addition
there was a man his name was gus bundy which
everyone we joke it's not ted bundy the serial killer
Gus Bundy went to a roundup and
he took photographs of the roundup and these
(11:12):
photographs got taken and published out
of context from what he meant them to be which then turned into this firestorm
between Velma Johnson and the Gus Bundy photographs about horse welfare and
how this can't be happening this is wrong this turned into a whole process a
legal process They only jumped and then coined Wild Horse Annie.
(11:36):
And books, Marguerite Henry, who wrote Nesteve Chincoteague, wrote a book.
I forget the name of it, but her artistic works are based on these Guth Mundy photographs.
And little girls riding their senders saying, stop the wild horse, round it up.
And eventually this law got passed, where...
Those ended, these companies weren't going to be allowed to round up wild horses
(11:58):
for meat and the populations were going to have to be left alone,
which was a good thing because yes, those shouldn't have been happening the way they were.
However, now we are in a situation in present day where we have these uncontrollable
populations of wild horses.
And I say wild, they're really not wild. They're feral. They are a product of
(12:19):
human influence. And I think that's a very important thing to note is that horses
and humans are so intertwined that you really cannot separate one from the other.
We have created a situation where we have to manage these animals.
And what's happening now is the land that they're on, they're indigenous to
this land, so they're just going gangbusters.
(12:42):
And there's huge populations that formerly were controlled, not in the correct
way, by these companies.
But now we've tried to find more humane ways to handle this.
And now you have horses that are taking off these lands, that are now in holding
pens, trying to get adopted out.
(13:03):
But a lot of people don't. They haven't been handled.
Very difficult to adopt them out. and then they
end up standing in these pens with just bacon
in the sun and it's not really right either so
the question is now how do we manage this problem
now nobody wants to hear about horses being killed
or being slaughtered and that
(13:24):
was another law i think in 2008 that was passed
about the horse slaughter in the u.s and i
don't think people realized how a lot of those horse populations are now just
being put in trucks and shipped across the border and then the same thing is
happening so in terms of trying to be more humane it's we've added another step
(13:45):
that's created more of an issue and we still don't really have a solution.
This actually isn't the first time in our co-evolution where there's been complex
problems in quest for progress.
I know in particular thinking about the Industrial Revolution growing up in
(14:06):
the UK and learning about horses through the story of Black Beauty as well.
Also all over the UK
but in Wales in particular there were pit ponies that
were used for coal mining so there
have been equine welfare issues for
(14:27):
a long time and I'm wondering if you
might just touch on the role of the horse
in the industrial revolution yeah so
there are scholars so the narrative goes that
we used horses as horsepower we still
use that term today when we talk about vehicles we say this engine
has such horsepower and that term was described to
(14:49):
say with the new engines which initially were steam or coal coal producing steam
that ran these engines and the term horsepower came from this engine is going
to reduce this engine does the work of six horses or four horses and there's
a scholar who argues that
Instead of the Industrial Revolution occurring that made the horse obsolete.
(15:13):
That the horse was actually the vehicle that enabled the Industrial Revolution.
So there wasn't this, suddenly we had steam engines.
There was horses who still had, so for example, when you had the train. Right.
You might be able to go on a train that was coal-driven, but you had to take
a horse, a horse-drawn buggy or an omnibus or some form of horse-drawn vehicle
(15:39):
to get you to the train station, to get you onto the train.
And other engines that were still manned by horses creating the energy to run this engine.
And so there was, when this started to occur, more horses than ever,
especially in America on the East Coast, moved into the city.
(16:00):
And so there was a statement that in Boston, a businessman in Boston would interact
with more horses on a regular day than somebody in the American West in the early 19th century.
Century, when you think about the West and cowboys and all this,
this man in Boston going to business on his day-to-day job was going to interact
(16:21):
with more horses than somebody out in the West, which I think is pretty profound
when you think about that.
And horses were in charge of everything.
They were the taxi service, they were the mail service, they were the fire service.
So there was in New York City, there was in the early 19th century,
an outbreak of horse influenza that killed a lot of horses.
And suddenly there was no fire protection because there was no horses to do this job.
(16:46):
There was no horses to get the products from the stores, the train.
The infrastructure was horse-based.
And this idea behind sanitation was very new.
With cities at this period, there was cholera, human diseases that were occurring
that no one really knew why they were occurring.
(17:07):
And there were certain things surrounding horse disease that then influenced human medicine.
So this kind of, at this point, when horses were living in the study,
we saw a rise of this notion of veterinary care, trying to see what's happening
and how these horses are, why are they getting sick and how can we prevent this?
Because it's in the end costing money.
(17:28):
And we have a garage nowadays where we store our car.
So when horses moved into the city, now our garage was where you'd have your horse.
Like your horse that you owned, if you were a worker or if you were a cab driver
or whatever, that's where your horse lived. So your horse literally lived in your garage.
That was where they stayed. And then they worked seven days a week doing their job.
(17:50):
There was many things unnatural about this as they were on concrete or not even
concrete, sometimes mud.
There was a lot of manure and manure issue was a huge deal in some cities you'll see sidewalks.
Or entrances to houses where there's 10 stairs up and
a concrete and it's because manure used to go
up that high because there was no way to clear
(18:13):
this and a lot of
the time if you owned a horse if you were a working class
and you had a horse and your horse got ill you couldn't
then use it for work and then you
didn't have any money to feed it because you weren't making money because your horse
was sick and so they just turn them loose into the street and then
they would die so horse carcasses were a very
(18:35):
common sight and eventually somebody would come along and take the body and
then sell it so there was a lot of not good things occurring with horses in
the cities and of course bodies they were truly living machine in this and and
when they were done and And so in terms of horse welfare,
that was probably the most unnatural place for a horse to be living.
(18:58):
Yet, they so willingly were doing such. Horses are so adaptable in that way,
which again, I think there's always that line.
When we look at historical record, we see these numbers.
We don't know who's making individual actions on horses, who is treating the
horse well and who is not, or what their knowledge was at the time.
What we know now is significantly more than what they did back then.
(19:24):
I also want to acknowledge at the same time, there is a very significant population
of working equids who are still the main mode of transport or the main mode
of getting kids to the school or carrying goods or creating income for families.
And I did discuss this in relationship to donkeys in particular with Dr.
(19:49):
Jane Merriam in one of my earlier podcasts, I think it's important to know there's
still a lot of work that's going on in terms of supporting communities around
understanding what equine welfare looks like among working horses and equid.
(20:10):
And hopefully, as a community of horse lovers as well, we can continue to support that work.
And this is an interesting place where
black beauty is a novel written
by anna swell and it was published in 1877 and it was published in great britain
and she this is all around the period of time slavery had come to an end it
(20:36):
was abolished there's all this discussion about this this new enlightenment period,
so to speak, of how we're treating people.
And she saw how horses were being treated as workers and said her whole premise
was to write a book from the horse's point of view to create animal welfare
(20:56):
and bring up this fact to say this is what it's like for these animals.
That book then came to the United States and got published and spread everywhere and it.
Was part of the creation of groups such
as the SPCA and it spearheaded this idea
behind these animals aren't just living machines
(21:19):
like they are being they're sentient beings and they are like our families we
have to look at them that way and I think as a horse person growing up we all
know that story and to this day if I read that book or watch the movie and I
think that's It's very important that we are aware of that.
With that book, her writing is so powerful with this idea of inducing kindness
(21:43):
towards horses in England.
I want to name the fact that she was actually disabled at a young age and she
could drive a horse-drawn carriage.
So there is this horse human connection as well in terms of being able to travel
(22:05):
and i know that's one really important part of their co-evolution we have this
complex relationship with horses in terms of.
Being able to travel and that allows warfare as well as industry,
then there's this idea of the
horse as this wild animal that's a symbol of divine freedom and transcend.
(22:31):
They're almost paradoxical in many ways.
I'm wondering, as things shifted
from the Industrial Revolution and the
sport horse came into being what
changed for the horse world in
the western world i think one of
the biggest things is as horses moved out
(22:53):
of the city and this happened in the west too so if you think horse so like
if you think of the car replacing the horse in the city the tractor replaced
the horse in the west so this idea that we needed horses to till land and create
agriculture and move cattle in the train.
(23:14):
Suddenly tractors come along. They can till the lands.
Trains can suddenly move horses. You can move.
So in the West, rodeo up here.
So horses suddenly are out of work, but there's these people who have these
skills and these specialized horses that they bred for a specialized reason
(23:36):
going, well, what do we do now?
And so you see these traditions being upheld in showcasing these things through competition.
And that's in the Western side of it, on the English side of it.
And it's a very interesting thing because as we are in the West,
in Colorado, and as a dressage rider, there really isn't much dressage influence or history in the West.
(24:02):
It's a Western place. horses were in
the cultures that they came from and the specific places that
they were bred for specific jobs started to
change and so we start to see horse racing
had always been around so if you had a good horse that you knew was fast it
would work all day during the week and then take it to the horse race on the
(24:23):
weekend and that shifted into this specialized we just race the horses for these
specific races and then they go to stud so now we have the Kentucky Derby where after three years old,
essentially they're retired or maybe their career goes another couple years.
With rodeo, we see horse working, cow horse, and then these new branches,
western pleasure and the breeding changes where suddenly horses are bred to
(24:47):
move a certain way to attain these parameters that are placed in terms of how it's being judged.
And then in the sport of dressage, same thing is happening. I think now we've.
Specially bred horses to move a certain way to
attain these things that used to take a lot longer to
train through the gymnastics side of
(25:10):
the horse's body and now i
think we a little bit have these horses that kind of
are born able to move a certain way that prior horses 200 years ago or 100 years
ago or 50 years ago or 20 years ago even that wasn't a thing and so i think
we have have a place now where we have the ability, we have the time,
(25:36):
we have the money, and we have an industry that can say, here's what we want, how do we create it?
And we've created things, but we have to then say, what are we doing with this?
How are we maintaining this in a way that that is sustainable,
and is honoring these animals.
(25:58):
And these horses that are specialized breeding for sport are very different
than the horses that are out feral out in these areas in the West.
I really don't imagine any horse that I currently ride or train would survive
for 50 long turned out on their own.
And that is a very human-impacted thing. We have, as human beings,
(26:23):
we have created now a species of horse that is dependent on us.
And in return, we need to, it's a mutual relation.
It's always been, both of us have been interacting in this way,
but now we have this luxury of excess in such a way of we're not having to give
(26:45):
our food or water or build our stuff.
We have all these machines to do this so we go
oh now we can do sport and make it all about
sport where it used to be probably eight percent work twenty percent sport i
think it's interesting to note that yes horses would not survive out in the
(27:06):
wild for sure yet horses survive in the hardships ships of the Namibian desert.
It's like there's a constant continual range of ways horses show up in different cultures in the world.
In terms of the valuable economic aspect of horses as part of family life in working on farms,
(27:34):
and then they were a valuable asset when they were perceived more machine-like
and they're a valuable asset as a sport horse.
Do you have some thoughts about the economics of the horse industry as it currently stands?
(27:54):
It's always been there and perhaps now it's more visible because the horses
who were in the city or in the mines or pulling,
doing the hard labor were a very different horse than the horse that the elite
would have pulling their carriage when they wanted to go into town or go to church.
(28:17):
If you look at that viewpoint or that lens, using the equine lens,
you see a different way of looking at clad or valuing a horse.
And this is where I think the breeding ties directly into this idea that started
occurring in the 19th century with eugenic,
this sort of false science surrounding physical attributes that we then turned
(28:43):
into a racist construct of certain people were valued over others based on their skin color,
their facial shape, where they came from.
And this obsession of bloodline and purity and ownership of bloodline or purity,
I think, began or was going right alongside what was going on the human side
(29:09):
of things and then with the horse side of things.
And you look at breeds in these different areas.
If you go back to the Eurasian steppes, as horses are spreading,
these Arabian breeds, these Spanish barb breed, a lot of the records about those times.
Interesting as an equine historian to look into this because there's not a lot
(29:31):
of work done on this. Scholars really haven't examined this.
As horse people, we take this for granted.
But this actual case.
Written record of how things became a
breed and what makes it
a breed what makes a quarter horse what makes an air what
makes a warm blood and just looking at germany for
(29:52):
example and when or europe when you think about kingdoms and they had horses
and then there's alliances between different countries and they were part of
their system of alliance oh i have this stallion i'm going to They gave you the stallion as a gift,
and they were able to infuse these bloodlines that became very nationalistic.
(30:14):
These countries are very proud of the horses that they produce.
So in America, we were producing American saddlebred, we were producing American
quarter horses, the national show horse, and a lot of our horses were based on carriage driving.
Driving england was doing the thoroughbred and they
were primarily focused on racing which was also tied
(30:35):
into the arab horse and then spanish horses the arabian
peninsula was it was based around cattle when i
say cattle i know here we think about cattle in
the west but think of spanish bullfighting and i think the development of the
horse breed based on the place where it was and the job that needed to be done
but then this nationalist feeling this nationalistic feeling behind these horse
(30:58):
breeds and this pride of what you're producing and then this sense of ownership.
And all these ideas then tie into
who's better what horse is deemed
worthy of being seen good for this job which
horse is good you know just pull the cards around and
when their bodies break down we're going to turn them loose and
(31:19):
not think much about them again and who's
going down in the a mind shaft and i think you can see
this hierarchy that we see in in in
the human race as well i think as well
just naming all those different aspects it's
notable that in all different cultures and way forces have been a part of our
(31:44):
lives that there is this interconnected connected utility and also consciousness that can actually,
I think, if we pay attention to it, I think horses can be a really important
part of our healing because there's this thread that we do have multicultural
(32:07):
commonalities because of this co-evolution.
And I'm hoping that That actually can be a positive as we continue conversations
around horses and horses.
They're a part of our psyche. I think that's a really good point.
And I think that the really cool thing about horses is that the horse is a unifier.
(32:35):
So it doesn't matter who you are, what gender you are, how much money you have.
It's like the horse equalizes it.
Horses act the same They don't act on our human construct of things like that.
They literally view us, these creatures that are saying, they're asking us,
(32:57):
are you going to be a good leader? Are you going to keep me safe?
Do you know how to communicate with me? And that communication,
or if you're on their back, the ability to connect with them,
you cannot create that. You can't buy that.
That's something that is unique in that anybody can achieve that if they're
(33:20):
willing to listen. And I've seen it happen where people think,
oh, I'm going to do this and this or buy this and this. It doesn't matter.
And I think that's really special is that.
And I think it's the thing that draws horse people together,
that horse people, the second that you've met a fellow horse person,
you immediately, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter where you're from, who you are, what age you are.
(33:44):
I remember being a little girl at 10 years old and some of my best friends were
like older ladies in their 50s and 60s and we would just talk for hours about
our horses and it's very special.
It is very special and such a privilege to be around.
I think it might be important as well to share, in case we have non-horse listeners,
(34:09):
just to define what the difference is between a horse that's domesticated and dogs and cats.
Because many people comment here and there on social media, really,
what is the difference between a horse and the way we interact with dogs and
(34:30):
cats as companion animals?
There's a few things. In terms of domestication, and I don't know this for sure,
but I believe that dogs were one of the first animals that humans domesticated.
But it's important to understand dogs are predators, and so are cats, and so are humans.
In terms of the non-predator animals, it was goats, sheep, and cows that were
(34:56):
the first animals to be domesticated, and the horses were some of the last.
And a lot of that was due to the fact that humans, early on,
before they ever were interacting with horses, used to hunt them as a food source.
And horses are flight animals. They are going to run if that's their first instinct
(35:16):
is to run. And in history, we have a term called agent.
We talk about agency when we talk about historical actors.
We say who had agency or meaning who has free will in the story.
Horses are historical actors with their own agency because you can't force a horse to do anything.
They're way bigger than us. They are...
(35:39):
Like I said, they're fly animals. Horses make decisions to interact with us.
They don't just say, okay, I'm going to do what you want.
Horses, they're herd animals, so they definitely have this hierarchy where they will follow a leader.
And that is one reason why they were able to be domesticated is that we could
create a situation where we as a human establish ourselves as the leader that
(36:03):
the horse said, yeah, I will follow you. I trust you.
Dogs and cats are, they're truly
a different animal horses are as a
predatory animal a horse that gets preyed
upon the fact that they are willing to enter into this relationship with us
they trust us and they wouldn't my whole job is based around this because the
(36:25):
horses if they don't want to do something you cannot make them and I think that
this idea that somehow horses are,
obeying us through force.
The people who do that, it doesn't work and it undermines the entire relationship.
And I think, unfortunately, in the case that's happening right now,
(36:49):
especially our sport, is we see these people who are doing that.
And I think that we see that they're getting rewarded for that.
That is not what it's about.
And I would say 99% of people are not doing it that way.
And then i think stemming from
that we see this negative and people
(37:09):
don't understand what's the differences between what's
good and what's bad and that's not
their fault that's just a lack of education a
lack of transparency a lack of understanding and
to have a sport that's been around for so long equestrian
sport i think they entered the olympics in 1902
or 1906 sick they've been around for a
(37:32):
long time and cavalry and
all these things that stem from
this and a horse would not go running into a battlefield if it didn't trust
you it just wanted it would turn tail the other direction so i think that willingness
to be a partner is really unique I think that anything.
(37:58):
When you're a partner with somebody, there's vulnerability and there's places
where one or the other can do damage upon one or the other.
But the essence and art of horse sport is to be the voice of the horse and lift
them up the way they lift us up.
So appreciating the great harmony and pleasure between the horse human relationship
(38:24):
and also acknowledging they do have their own free will in terms of we as riders
can actually feel on the edge of life and death with them sometimes and.
Because of them being flight animals and you've got immense power that you may not be able to contain.
(38:45):
I was thinking of it in the context of paintings of war horses and how you often
see horses with their mouths wide open and almost like we should be fearing
them because they're powerful and strong and they look violent in many of those paintings.
And I'm wondering how How much of it is simply to do with just the writers pulling
(39:10):
on their mouths with a bit that back in different eras was incredibly harsh.
So I, in terms of art, I haven't dived into the art side.
I've seen these paintings that aren't exactly what you're talking about.
I've read a lot about, especially in places like ancient Greece and ancient China,
(39:32):
there we have archaeological sites in the
chariot area era with chariot
wars when before they were riding horses when they
had horses pulling these chariots and they were having these chariot wars and
the artifacts and the tack and that so they would have these ceremonies they
would bury the chariot and the horses with the warrior it was you could from
(39:56):
these sites tell who was very very important because the more horses they had buried with them,
the more chariots buried with them, the more important they were.
And the tack was quite severe. The invention of the cheek piece,
which nowadays we would say is what connects the bit up to the crown piece of
the bridle, oftentimes there was spike.
(40:18):
So the pressure from the bit would also be pushing into the side of the mouth,
And a lot of the time, these cheek pieces were made out of bone.
Or in the period of the Bronze Age, virology was being, you know,
they were able to create metal.
And then the bits were often bone and often also extremely harsh.
(40:42):
Like nowadays, no, this would not be happening.
And there's depictions of horses about their mouths foaming and they're foaming red.
And and honestly that and
as a person at that time seeing this i'm
sure that looked extremely terrifying but
the red bone was probably from literally
(41:05):
cutting their tongue or mouth or lips from these
harsh bits and i think
those paintings you're describing are men charging
into battle saddle with these contraptions and yes but that would be a very
i can only imagine as a rider what you'd have to be doing to get around these
situations however in this day and age the invention of a saddle the invention
(41:30):
of the stirrup and the stirrup was revolutionary.
It was arab influence the stirrup came
from and that's a whole nother era
yeah that i'm not super super deep in
understanding but i have a very surface
level in modern times now we
have the art of creating a
(41:53):
saddle and the intricate saddles even
back in history they might not have been exactly formed to the horses but we
have saddles if you go to museums you see these saddles that were made and a
lot of our modern day saddles are based on the same idea with this wooden tree
and now you have ways to mold the saddle to fit the horse.
(42:15):
We have specialized people who fit.
To the horse we have our legislative bodies
who say these are the bits that you can use these are the bits
you cannot and there's a lot of
research and technology that goes into these things that are only
to make the horse more comfortable that are
light years beyond what we as human beings were doing in the beginning years
(42:40):
so i feel that our knowledge has only gotten better as we've We've evolved with
the horses and our awareness of how to make them even more comfortable,
how to make things even better.
Similarly to if you're hiking or skiing, I think of skiing.
I grew up in Colorado in the 70s. Everyone's in their jeans and whatever.
(43:02):
Now it's high tech fabric.
It's waterproof, breathable, gorgeous and windproof.
We have all these things now that we didn't have back when people were climbing 14ers and going skiing.
Same thing with the horse. we have these new technologies that make everyone
more comfortable, make everything easier.
There's lots and lots of research that goes into that. I think we've only improved
(43:24):
upon the equipment that we use.
And then I think the factor that
is always in there is the human agency to decide how we're using that.
And I think that's where we have to understand that there are probably always
going to be people that do things and they are going to use these tools in the wrong ways.
(43:46):
But that we are, most of us, striving to not, to only improve and to only be better.
Absolutely. It seems reasonable.
Acknowledge the fact that horses are going to be in our lives continuously going forward,
that they're not going to suddenly
(44:07):
disappear or all of them become wild horses and be able to survive.
So as we continue this journey with them and focusing on their humane and careful
methods of interacting with them and enjoying them.
(44:29):
There's so much more to learn from them and I hope that other people can begin
to appreciate that a bit more from understanding the history of how we got here.
We touched on so many amazing subjects today and I know we could probably do
a podcast on each little segment.
(44:51):
So I think it was really wonderful to engage in this conversation with you today,
Jessica. Thank you so very much.
Oh, it was so much fun. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much, listeners, for tuning in today to the InScape Quest podcast.
(45:13):
Please be sure to share this with a friend and check the follow button button
to get reminders of future episodes. Cheerio for now.
Welcome to InScape Quests, where insightful conversations redefine perspectives.
I'm your host, Trudy Howley. Join me as together we delve into discussions about
relationships, work, and passion, unlocking profound insights that may shape our lives.
This is InScape Quests, where the journey within meets the quest for understanding.
(00:25):
Welcome to my guest today, Jessica Greer. Jessica is a Grand Prix rider and trainer in Colorado.
She's also a master's equine historian.
Jessica has married these two passions, history and horses, and today we discuss
the history of the horse.
(00:52):
Jessica, welcome today. I'm so excited to have you here for this conversation.
I've been wanting to talk to you for a really long time about the history of the horse.
So I'm happy that we can get started today.
Me too. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
So we have this wonderful co-evolution with the horse, which basically means
(01:17):
that two different species have this intertwined relationship that have affected each other.
And this co-evolution really
is in every culture in history
throughout the world anywhere from mongolia japan spain austria ireland argentina
(01:38):
canada france south america and so on and that relationship continues today
where do we start there's so many different places to start.
There is.
I think it's best to begin with where the horse, essentially the horse is indigenous
(01:59):
to North America, which is very unique because there was a period where they
were not in North America.
So the horse began in North America, and when I say this, I'm not talking about
our modern horse that we would think of today,
but a horse similar that becomes the modern Equus that during the Ice Age went
(02:23):
over the Bering Strait land bridge and spread into the Asian steppes.
And there is where the first domestication of the horse occurred.
And from there spread into areas such as Arabia and the Iberian Peninsula,
where we see horse breeds such as the Arabian horse.
(02:44):
Spanish barb, which to this day, we can essentially trace all of the ancestry
of our current horses that we ride to these lines.
And this the horse did not arrive
back or wasn't reintroduced into the americas
until the spanish came with their i guess
you would say their voyages to the new world where
(03:06):
they landed first in the caribbean islands with horses
and then later in mexico and when
the horse returned to its native area where
it evolved they just spread like wildfire
and what we now know as north america then
that was in around the 15th century
and i think there were there weren't
(03:28):
that many horses that came over then at that
time no i believe the
initial number that they brought was 28 which
they brought by ship which when you think
about that imagine a three-month voyage across.
Across the ocean from Spain to Mexico and
(03:48):
these horses had to endure this and
the storms and they used crane to get
the horses on like a modified rope and
pulley system to get the horses into the water off the
ship and they'd have to swim on the shore that's pretty incredible when we think
about today that oh my horses fly on planes and what a important aspect of having
(04:13):
having well-trained horses these days to be able to fly easily and in comfort.
Absolutely. And other things that we have today, castration,
a lot of that wasn't happening.
So when these horses then were in these new lands, oftentimes they were left
(04:33):
to their own devices, so to speak. They're roaming.
So you can see where some probably just wandered off and never returned and
started their own bands of horses.
And then from there, these wild horse populations erupted quite quickly.
And out of that, where we see
then later on this sort of horse culture that we think of when we think of the
(04:58):
American West of cowboys breaking quote-unquote horses or taming these wild
horses or indigenous Americans who were equestrianized and had their own empire,
which enabled them to have their own stance against.
The colonization that was occurring to them so the horse
(05:20):
was very significant i know that there's a
lot of meaningful ways that western cowboys
and indigenous populations engaged with
their horses understanding that capturing
those mustangs and taming them actually
enhanced the prestige of the
(05:40):
the indigenous warriors and stealing horses
from the enemy was actually quite a noble
way to get an
animal is that right yes certain
indigenous nation particular lakota and they became who they were based on being
(06:02):
equestrians and in addition to that they
They changed from being a sort of hunter-gatherer to a sequestrionized,
able to do more.
They could hunt bison. They could become more warring against other groups.
And groups such as Comanche had their own empire, so to speak.
(06:23):
If you look at it from the standpoint of they had their own interactions.
Their own territories, their own raids, slave trade, you name it.
Going on with oftentimes working with spanish
colonizers and later french and later when
our country became america american which up
(06:43):
until the homestead act when people started
pushing more west and european colonizers
turned americans started moving westward in which
those lands were contested and that the other
narrative we hear about the cowboys versus the indians in
the wild wild west but the horse enabled those
indigenous to stay on a bit longer than the
(07:06):
groups of indigenous who were not equestrianized i'd
love it if you might just touch on what we now know as the western quarter horse
and the breeding and how that evolved so i did research specifically surrounding
the colorado version or the development of the color of the quarter horse and And found that,
(07:29):
so we had these Spanish horses who arrived in Mexico with Cortez that moved
northward, that they're living in the areas of New Mexico,
Arizona, Utah, Colorado.
And in the East, Spanish were also in Florida, people in that area of the country
(07:49):
referred to these feral horses that kind of escaped from the Spanish control.
They called them Indian ponies. That was their term for these horses that indigenous peoples had.
And later, if you think Northern and East,
Jamestown, New York, et cetera, these colonies that were the English settled,
(08:11):
at the time at this time that this
is occurring in the americas and england they're developing what
will later be the thoroughbred so the english start
bringing in the thoroughbred so you see this
unique mixture of these horses that are
of spanish descent mostly spanish barbs then later
the thoroughbred influence and they merge together when we
(08:32):
bring the events such as civil war pushed
these populations more towards the west and you
mix these two populations then of the native indigenous
colonies which are now the
mustangs that we think of today merging with
these english thoroughbreds that on these borderlands are then being interbred
(08:55):
and at the time it wasn't called a quarter horse this is also a place where
cattle are happening happening and this cattle culture and the ability to move
horses and cattle over vast distances.
And you needed these horses that were able to have the Santa Ma to do that,
were able to be quick, and in turn develops into this unique breed.
(09:17):
Eventually becomes the court horse the american court horse and
you touched on the mustangs and i think
it would be important to acknowledge that the feral
population of mustangs really is
a controversial issue currently and
i'm wondering what your personal opinion
(09:38):
or feelings are about the wild
mustang population so we
have still we have these feral horse populations in the great basin which is
parts of california most of nevada new mexico utah and this land is regulated
by the blm brookland management and this land has been a very Very interesting area.
(10:05):
In the time of World War II, this is where, for example, there was atomic bomb testing going on.
These populations of wild horses are running around out here.
They've been there forever. ever.
There was a woman named Velma Johnston. This is back in the 60s.
And there would be regular roundups occurring because at the time,
(10:28):
companies who would create dog food were like, we need meat for dog food.
So we have these wild horses. We're going to round them up. We're going to turn them into dog food.
For us, it's free other than the cost of the roundup.
This woman velma johnston lived in
the area and saw a truck a semi-truck full of wild
horses that had been rounded up and god horrible
(10:50):
things like a horse with a broken leg and blood is coming
out of the trailer and she was mortified and she was like this cannot
be this cannot be happening in addition
there was a man his name was gus bundy which
everyone we joke it's not ted bundy the serial killer
Gus Bundy went to a roundup and
he took photographs of the roundup and these
(11:12):
photographs got taken and published out
of context from what he meant them to be which then turned into this firestorm
between Velma Johnson and the Gus Bundy photographs about horse welfare and
how this can't be happening this is wrong this turned into a whole process a
legal process They only jumped and then coined Wild Horse Annie.
(11:36):
And books, Marguerite Henry, who wrote Nesteve Chincoteague, wrote a book.
I forget the name of it, but her artistic works are based on these Guth Mundy photographs.
And little girls riding their senders saying, stop the wild horse, round it up.
And eventually this law got passed, where...
Those ended, these companies weren't going to be allowed to round up wild horses
(11:58):
for meat and the populations were going to have to be left alone,
which was a good thing because yes, those shouldn't have been happening the way they were.
However, now we are in a situation in present day where we have these uncontrollable
populations of wild horses.
And I say wild, they're really not wild. They're feral. They are a product of
(12:19):
human influence. And I think that's a very important thing to note is that horses
and humans are so intertwined that you really cannot separate one from the other.
We have created a situation where we have to manage these animals.
And what's happening now is the land that they're on, they're indigenous to
this land, so they're just going gangbusters.
(12:42):
And there's huge populations that formerly were controlled, not in the correct
way, by these companies.
But now we've tried to find more humane ways to handle this.
And now you have horses that are taking off these lands, that are now in holding
pens, trying to get adopted out.
(13:03):
But a lot of people don't. They haven't been handled.
Very difficult to adopt them out. and then they
end up standing in these pens with just bacon
in the sun and it's not really right either so
the question is now how do we manage this problem
now nobody wants to hear about horses being killed
or being slaughtered and that
(13:24):
was another law i think in 2008 that was passed
about the horse slaughter in the u.s and i
don't think people realized how a lot of those horse populations are now just
being put in trucks and shipped across the border and then the same thing is
happening so in terms of trying to be more humane it's we've added another step
(13:45):
that's created more of an issue and we still don't really have a solution.
This actually isn't the first time in our co-evolution where there's been complex
problems in quest for progress.
I know in particular thinking about the Industrial Revolution growing up in
(14:06):
the UK and learning about horses through the story of Black Beauty as well.
Also all over the UK
but in Wales in particular there were pit ponies that
were used for coal mining so there
have been equine welfare issues for
(14:27):
a long time and I'm wondering if you
might just touch on the role of the horse
in the industrial revolution yeah so
there are scholars so the narrative goes that
we used horses as horsepower we still
use that term today when we talk about vehicles we say this engine
has such horsepower and that term was described to
(14:49):
say with the new engines which initially were steam or coal coal producing steam
that ran these engines and the term horsepower came from this engine is going
to reduce this engine does the work of six horses or four horses and there's
a scholar who argues that
Instead of the Industrial Revolution occurring that made the horse obsolete.
(15:13):
That the horse was actually the vehicle that enabled the Industrial Revolution.
So there wasn't this, suddenly we had steam engines.
There was horses who still had, so for example, when you had the train. Right.
You might be able to go on a train that was coal-driven, but you had to take
a horse, a horse-drawn buggy or an omnibus or some form of horse-drawn vehicle
(15:39):
to get you to the train station, to get you onto the train.
And other engines that were still manned by horses creating the energy to run this engine.
And so there was, when this started to occur, more horses than ever,
especially in America on the East Coast, moved into the city.
(16:00):
And so there was a statement that in Boston, a businessman in Boston would interact
with more horses on a regular day than somebody in the American West in the early 19th century.
Century, when you think about the West and cowboys and all this,
this man in Boston going to business on his day-to-day job was going to interact
(16:21):
with more horses than somebody out in the West, which I think is pretty profound
when you think about that.
And horses were in charge of everything.
They were the taxi service, they were the mail service, they were the fire service.
So there was in New York City, there was in the early 19th century,
an outbreak of horse influenza that killed a lot of horses.
And suddenly there was no fire protection because there was no horses to do this job.
(16:46):
There was no horses to get the products from the stores, the train.
The infrastructure was horse-based.
And this idea behind sanitation was very new.
With cities at this period, there was cholera, human diseases that were occurring
that no one really knew why they were occurring.
(17:07):
And there were certain things surrounding horse disease that then influenced human medicine.
So this kind of, at this point, when horses were living in the study,
we saw a rise of this notion of veterinary care, trying to see what's happening
and how these horses are, why are they getting sick and how can we prevent this?
Because it's in the end costing money.
(17:28):
And we have a garage nowadays where we store our car.
So when horses moved into the city, now our garage was where you'd have your horse.
Like your horse that you owned, if you were a worker or if you were a cab driver
or whatever, that's where your horse lived. So your horse literally lived in your garage.
That was where they stayed. And then they worked seven days a week doing their job.
(17:50):
There was many things unnatural about this as they were on concrete or not even
concrete, sometimes mud.
There was a lot of manure and manure issue was a huge deal in some cities you'll see sidewalks.
Or entrances to houses where there's 10 stairs up and
a concrete and it's because manure used to go
up that high because there was no way to clear
(18:13):
this and a lot of
the time if you owned a horse if you were a working class
and you had a horse and your horse got ill you couldn't
then use it for work and then you
didn't have any money to feed it because you weren't making money because your horse
was sick and so they just turn them loose into the street and then
they would die so horse carcasses were a very
(18:35):
common sight and eventually somebody would come along and take the body and
then sell it so there was a lot of not good things occurring with horses in
the cities and of course bodies they were truly living machine in this and and
when they were done and And so in terms of horse welfare,
that was probably the most unnatural place for a horse to be living.
(18:58):
Yet, they so willingly were doing such. Horses are so adaptable in that way,
which again, I think there's always that line.
When we look at historical record, we see these numbers.
We don't know who's making individual actions on horses, who is treating the
horse well and who is not, or what their knowledge was at the time.
What we know now is significantly more than what they did back then.
(19:24):
I also want to acknowledge at the same time, there is a very significant population
of working equids who are still the main mode of transport or the main mode
of getting kids to the school or carrying goods or creating income for families.
And I did discuss this in relationship to donkeys in particular with Dr.
(19:49):
Jane Merriam in one of my earlier podcasts, I think it's important to know there's
still a lot of work that's going on in terms of supporting communities around
understanding what equine welfare looks like among working horses and equid.
(20:10):
And hopefully, as a community of horse lovers as well, we can continue to support that work.
And this is an interesting place where
black beauty is a novel written
by anna swell and it was published in 1877 and it was published in great britain
and she this is all around the period of time slavery had come to an end it
(20:36):
was abolished there's all this discussion about this this new enlightenment period,
so to speak, of how we're treating people.
And she saw how horses were being treated as workers and said her whole premise
was to write a book from the horse's point of view to create animal welfare
(20:56):
and bring up this fact to say this is what it's like for these animals.
That book then came to the United States and got published and spread everywhere and it.
Was part of the creation of groups such
as the SPCA and it spearheaded this idea
behind these animals aren't just living machines
(21:19):
like they are being they're sentient beings and they are like our families we
have to look at them that way and I think as a horse person growing up we all
know that story and to this day if I read that book or watch the movie and I
think that's It's very important that we are aware of that.
With that book, her writing is so powerful with this idea of inducing kindness
(21:43):
towards horses in England.
I want to name the fact that she was actually disabled at a young age and she
could drive a horse-drawn carriage.
So there is this horse human connection as well in terms of being able to travel
(22:05):
and i know that's one really important part of their co-evolution we have this
complex relationship with horses in terms of.
Being able to travel and that allows warfare as well as industry,
then there's this idea of the
horse as this wild animal that's a symbol of divine freedom and transcend.
(22:31):
They're almost paradoxical in many ways.
I'm wondering, as things shifted
from the Industrial Revolution and the
sport horse came into being what
changed for the horse world in
the western world i think one of
the biggest things is as horses moved out
(22:53):
of the city and this happened in the west too so if you think horse so like
if you think of the car replacing the horse in the city the tractor replaced
the horse in the west so this idea that we needed horses to till land and create
agriculture and move cattle in the train.
(23:14):
Suddenly tractors come along. They can till the lands.
Trains can suddenly move horses. You can move.
So in the West, rodeo up here.
So horses suddenly are out of work, but there's these people who have these
skills and these specialized horses that they bred for a specialized reason
(23:36):
going, well, what do we do now?
And so you see these traditions being upheld in showcasing these things through competition.
And that's in the Western side of it, on the English side of it.
And it's a very interesting thing because as we are in the West,
in Colorado, and as a dressage rider, there really isn't much dressage influence or history in the West.
(24:02):
It's a Western place. horses were in
the cultures that they came from and the specific places that
they were bred for specific jobs started to
change and so we start to see horse racing
had always been around so if you had a good horse that you knew was fast it
would work all day during the week and then take it to the horse race on the
(24:23):
weekend and that shifted into this specialized we just race the horses for these
specific races and then they go to stud so now we have the Kentucky Derby where after three years old,
essentially they're retired or maybe their career goes another couple years.
With rodeo, we see horse working, cow horse, and then these new branches,
western pleasure and the breeding changes where suddenly horses are bred to
(24:47):
move a certain way to attain these parameters that are placed in terms of how it's being judged.
And then in the sport of dressage, same thing is happening. I think now we've.
Specially bred horses to move a certain way to
attain these things that used to take a lot longer to
train through the gymnastics side of
(25:10):
the horse's body and now i
think we a little bit have these horses that kind of
are born able to move a certain way that prior horses 200 years ago or 100 years
ago or 50 years ago or 20 years ago even that wasn't a thing and so i think
we have have a place now where we have the ability, we have the time,
(25:36):
we have the money, and we have an industry that can say, here's what we want, how do we create it?
And we've created things, but we have to then say, what are we doing with this?
How are we maintaining this in a way that that is sustainable,
and is honoring these animals.
(25:58):
And these horses that are specialized breeding for sport are very different
than the horses that are out feral out in these areas in the West.
I really don't imagine any horse that I currently ride or train would survive
for 50 long turned out on their own.
And that is a very human-impacted thing. We have, as human beings,
(26:23):
we have created now a species of horse that is dependent on us.
And in return, we need to, it's a mutual relation.
It's always been, both of us have been interacting in this way,
but now we have this luxury of excess in such a way of we're not having to give
(26:45):
our food or water or build our stuff.
We have all these machines to do this so we go
oh now we can do sport and make it all about
sport where it used to be probably eight percent work twenty percent sport i
think it's interesting to note that yes horses would not survive out in the
(27:06):
wild for sure yet horses survive in the hardships ships of the Namibian desert.
It's like there's a constant continual range of ways horses show up in different cultures in the world.
In terms of the valuable economic aspect of horses as part of family life in working on farms,
(27:34):
and then they were a valuable asset when they were perceived more machine-like
and they're a valuable asset as a sport horse.
Do you have some thoughts about the economics of the horse industry as it currently stands?
(27:54):
It's always been there and perhaps now it's more visible because the horses
who were in the city or in the mines or pulling,
doing the hard labor were a very different horse than the horse that the elite
would have pulling their carriage when they wanted to go into town or go to church.
(28:17):
If you look at that viewpoint or that lens, using the equine lens,
you see a different way of looking at clad or valuing a horse.
And this is where I think the breeding ties directly into this idea that started
occurring in the 19th century with eugenic,
this sort of false science surrounding physical attributes that we then turned
(28:43):
into a racist construct of certain people were valued over others based on their skin color,
their facial shape, where they came from.
And this obsession of bloodline and purity and ownership of bloodline or purity,
I think, began or was going right alongside what was going on the human side
(29:09):
of things and then with the horse side of things.
And you look at breeds in these different areas.
If you go back to the Eurasian steppes, as horses are spreading,
these Arabian breeds, these Spanish barb breed, a lot of the records about those times.
Interesting as an equine historian to look into this because there's not a lot
(29:31):
of work done on this. Scholars really haven't examined this.
As horse people, we take this for granted.
But this actual case.
Written record of how things became a
breed and what makes it
a breed what makes a quarter horse what makes an air what
makes a warm blood and just looking at germany for
(29:52):
example and when or europe when you think about kingdoms and they had horses
and then there's alliances between different countries and they were part of
their system of alliance oh i have this stallion i'm going to They gave you the stallion as a gift,
and they were able to infuse these bloodlines that became very nationalistic.
(30:14):
These countries are very proud of the horses that they produce.
So in America, we were producing American saddlebred, we were producing American
quarter horses, the national show horse, and a lot of our horses were based on carriage driving.
Driving england was doing the thoroughbred and they
were primarily focused on racing which was also tied
(30:35):
into the arab horse and then spanish horses the arabian
peninsula was it was based around cattle when i
say cattle i know here we think about cattle in
the west but think of spanish bullfighting and i think the development of the
horse breed based on the place where it was and the job that needed to be done
but then this nationalist feeling this nationalistic feeling behind these horse
(30:58):
breeds and this pride of what you're producing and then this sense of ownership.
And all these ideas then tie into
who's better what horse is deemed
worthy of being seen good for this job which
horse is good you know just pull the cards around and
when their bodies break down we're going to turn them loose and
(31:19):
not think much about them again and who's
going down in the a mind shaft and i think you can see
this hierarchy that we see in in in
the human race as well i think as well
just naming all those different aspects it's
notable that in all different cultures and way forces have been a part of our
(31:44):
lives that there is this interconnected connected utility and also consciousness that can actually,
I think, if we pay attention to it, I think horses can be a really important
part of our healing because there's this thread that we do have multicultural
(32:07):
commonalities because of this co-evolution.
And I'm hoping that That actually can be a positive as we continue conversations
around horses and horses.
They're a part of our psyche. I think that's a really good point.
And I think that the really cool thing about horses is that the horse is a unifier.
(32:35):
So it doesn't matter who you are, what gender you are, how much money you have.
It's like the horse equalizes it.
Horses act the same They don't act on our human construct of things like that.
They literally view us, these creatures that are saying, they're asking us,
(32:57):
are you going to be a good leader? Are you going to keep me safe?
Do you know how to communicate with me? And that communication,
or if you're on their back, the ability to connect with them,
you cannot create that. You can't buy that.
That's something that is unique in that anybody can achieve that if they're
(33:20):
willing to listen. And I've seen it happen where people think,
oh, I'm going to do this and this or buy this and this. It doesn't matter.
And I think that's really special is that.
And I think it's the thing that draws horse people together,
that horse people, the second that you've met a fellow horse person,
you immediately, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter where you're from, who you are, what age you are.
(33:44):
I remember being a little girl at 10 years old and some of my best friends were
like older ladies in their 50s and 60s and we would just talk for hours about
our horses and it's very special.
It is very special and such a privilege to be around.
I think it might be important as well to share, in case we have non-horse listeners,
(34:09):
just to define what the difference is between a horse that's domesticated and dogs and cats.
Because many people comment here and there on social media, really,
what is the difference between a horse and the way we interact with dogs and
(34:30):
cats as companion animals?
There's a few things. In terms of domestication, and I don't know this for sure,
but I believe that dogs were one of the first animals that humans domesticated.
But it's important to understand dogs are predators, and so are cats, and so are humans.
In terms of the non-predator animals, it was goats, sheep, and cows that were
(34:56):
the first animals to be domesticated, and the horses were some of the last.
And a lot of that was due to the fact that humans, early on,
before they ever were interacting with horses, used to hunt them as a food source.
And horses are flight animals. They are going to run if that's their first instinct
(35:16):
is to run. And in history, we have a term called agent.
We talk about agency when we talk about historical actors.
We say who had agency or meaning who has free will in the story.
Horses are historical actors with their own agency because you can't force a horse to do anything.
They're way bigger than us. They are...
(35:39):
Like I said, they're fly animals. Horses make decisions to interact with us.
They don't just say, okay, I'm going to do what you want.
Horses, they're herd animals, so they definitely have this hierarchy where they will follow a leader.
And that is one reason why they were able to be domesticated is that we could
create a situation where we as a human establish ourselves as the leader that
(36:03):
the horse said, yeah, I will follow you. I trust you.
Dogs and cats are, they're truly
a different animal horses are as a
predatory animal a horse that gets preyed
upon the fact that they are willing to enter into this relationship with us
they trust us and they wouldn't my whole job is based around this because the
(36:25):
horses if they don't want to do something you cannot make them and I think that
this idea that somehow horses are,
obeying us through force.
The people who do that, it doesn't work and it undermines the entire relationship.
And I think, unfortunately, in the case that's happening right now,
(36:49):
especially our sport, is we see these people who are doing that.
And I think that we see that they're getting rewarded for that.
That is not what it's about.
And I would say 99% of people are not doing it that way.
And then i think stemming from
that we see this negative and people
(37:09):
don't understand what's the differences between what's
good and what's bad and that's not
their fault that's just a lack of education a
lack of transparency a lack of understanding and
to have a sport that's been around for so long equestrian
sport i think they entered the olympics in 1902
or 1906 sick they've been around for a
(37:32):
long time and cavalry and
all these things that stem from
this and a horse would not go running into a battlefield if it didn't trust
you it just wanted it would turn tail the other direction so i think that willingness
to be a partner is really unique I think that anything.
(37:58):
When you're a partner with somebody, there's vulnerability and there's places
where one or the other can do damage upon one or the other.
But the essence and art of horse sport is to be the voice of the horse and lift
them up the way they lift us up.
So appreciating the great harmony and pleasure between the horse human relationship
(38:24):
and also acknowledging they do have their own free will in terms of we as riders
can actually feel on the edge of life and death with them sometimes and.
Because of them being flight animals and you've got immense power that you may not be able to contain.
(38:45):
I was thinking of it in the context of paintings of war horses and how you often
see horses with their mouths wide open and almost like we should be fearing
them because they're powerful and strong and they look violent in many of those paintings.
And I'm wondering how How much of it is simply to do with just the writers pulling
(39:10):
on their mouths with a bit that back in different eras was incredibly harsh.
So I, in terms of art, I haven't dived into the art side.
I've seen these paintings that aren't exactly what you're talking about.
I've read a lot about, especially in places like ancient Greece and ancient China,
(39:32):
there we have archaeological sites in the
chariot area era with chariot
wars when before they were riding horses when they
had horses pulling these chariots and they were having these chariot wars and
the artifacts and the tack and that so they would have these ceremonies they
would bury the chariot and the horses with the warrior it was you could from
(39:56):
these sites tell who was very very important because the more horses they had buried with them,
the more chariots buried with them, the more important they were.
And the tack was quite severe. The invention of the cheek piece,
which nowadays we would say is what connects the bit up to the crown piece of
the bridle, oftentimes there was spike.
(40:18):
So the pressure from the bit would also be pushing into the side of the mouth,
And a lot of the time, these cheek pieces were made out of bone.
Or in the period of the Bronze Age, virology was being, you know,
they were able to create metal.
And then the bits were often bone and often also extremely harsh.
(40:42):
Like nowadays, no, this would not be happening.
And there's depictions of horses about their mouths foaming and they're foaming red.
And and honestly that and
as a person at that time seeing this i'm
sure that looked extremely terrifying but
the red bone was probably from literally
(41:05):
cutting their tongue or mouth or lips from these
harsh bits and i think
those paintings you're describing are men charging
into battle saddle with these contraptions and yes but that would be a very
i can only imagine as a rider what you'd have to be doing to get around these
situations however in this day and age the invention of a saddle the invention
(41:30):
of the stirrup and the stirrup was revolutionary.
It was arab influence the stirrup came
from and that's a whole nother era
yeah that i'm not super super deep in
understanding but i have a very surface
level in modern times now we
have the art of creating a
(41:53):
saddle and the intricate saddles even
back in history they might not have been exactly formed to the horses but we
have saddles if you go to museums you see these saddles that were made and a
lot of our modern day saddles are based on the same idea with this wooden tree
and now you have ways to mold the saddle to fit the horse.
(42:15):
We have specialized people who fit.
To the horse we have our legislative bodies
who say these are the bits that you can use these are the bits
you cannot and there's a lot of
research and technology that goes into these things that are only
to make the horse more comfortable that are
light years beyond what we as human beings were doing in the beginning years
(42:40):
so i feel that our knowledge has only gotten better as we've We've evolved with
the horses and our awareness of how to make them even more comfortable,
how to make things even better.
Similarly to if you're hiking or skiing, I think of skiing.
I grew up in Colorado in the 70s. Everyone's in their jeans and whatever.
(43:02):
Now it's high tech fabric.
It's waterproof, breathable, gorgeous and windproof.
We have all these things now that we didn't have back when people were climbing 14ers and going skiing.
Same thing with the horse. we have these new technologies that make everyone
more comfortable, make everything easier.
There's lots and lots of research that goes into that. I think we've only improved
(43:24):
upon the equipment that we use.
And then I think the factor that
is always in there is the human agency to decide how we're using that.
And I think that's where we have to understand that there are probably always
going to be people that do things and they are going to use these tools in the wrong ways.
(43:46):
But that we are, most of us, striving to not, to only improve and to only be better.
Absolutely. It seems reasonable.
Acknowledge the fact that horses are going to be in our lives continuously going forward,
that they're not going to suddenly
(44:07):
disappear or all of them become wild horses and be able to survive.
So as we continue this journey with them and focusing on their humane and careful
methods of interacting with them and enjoying them.
(44:29):
There's so much more to learn from them and I hope that other people can begin
to appreciate that a bit more from understanding the history of how we got here.
We touched on so many amazing subjects today and I know we could probably do
a podcast on each little segment.
(44:51):
So I think it was really wonderful to engage in this conversation with you today,
Jessica. Thank you so very much.
Oh, it was so much fun. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much, listeners, for tuning in today to the InScape Quest podcast.
(45:13):
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to get reminders of future episodes. Cheerio for now.
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