November 26, 2024 • 31 mins
Is the world still committed to human rights? Our Inside Geneva podcast is in Strasbourg, where the Council of Europe is discussing how to defend the fundamental principles we agreed upon after the Second World War.
“We can’t just say, ‘Do it because it’s a human right’ or ‘Do it because it’s in a treaty.’ We have to demonstrate: ‘Do it, and this is how it will make your society better and stronger,’” says Michael O’Flaherty, Human Rights Commissioner at the Council of Europe.
With autocracies in Russia and China and uncertain times ahead in the US, can Europe hold the line?
“If Europe doesn’t get this right, I can guarantee you it will not be good for Europe. It will be worse in the rest of the world as well, so it’s a vicious spiral,” continues Peggy Hicks, UN Human Rights.
But even in Europe, the commitment to human rights is sometimes weak.
“For many, human rights are a bit of an afterthought in our policy. It’s something to make us feel good about ourselves,” says Olof Skoog, the EU’s Special Representative for Human Rights.
We also talked to Sofia Moschin, student and human rights defender, who said that “inside Europe, there are constant violations of human rights, so I don’t agree with the narrative that Europe is a human rights champion.”
We also talked to Sofia Moschin, a student and human rights defender, who said, “Inside Europe, there are constant violations of human rights, so I don’t agree with the narrative that Europe is a human rights champion.”
How should Europe stand up for its values?
“I’m not going to accept defeatism. Get furious – that’s what we need to do now. Don’t throw in the towel, don’t surrender. Get indignant, get furious and fight back to save this astonishing achievement,” says O’Flaherty.
Join host Imogen Foulkes on the latest episode of our Inside Geneva podcast to listen to these interviews in full.
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Host: Imogen Foulkes
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
This is Inside Geneva .
I'm your host, imogen Foulkes,and this is a production from
Swissinfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's programme.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
We can't just say do it because it's a human right,
do it because it's in a treaty.
We have to show, do it, andthis is how it will make your
society better and stronger.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
If Europe doesn't get this right, I can guarantee you
it will not be good for Europe,because it will be worse in the
rest of the world as well.
So it's a vicious spiral.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
For many, too many, the human rights is a little bit
of an afterthought, you know,in our policy.
It's to feel a little bit goodabout ourselves.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
Inside Europe there are constant violations of human
rights, so I don't agree withthe narrative.
Europe is a human rightschampion.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I've been in the work of human rights my whole adult
life.
I've never seen it moreprecarious.
I've lived through horrors, soI've seen the worst a human can
do to a human.
But I haven't seen thechallenging to the system and
the extent to which thechallenging is coming into the
mainstream, respectable centre.
That is the case, I would sayalmost, you know, in recent
months, never mind years.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva.
I'm Imogen Fowkes.
Today, as you may have guessedfrom our introduction, we're
focusing on current challengesto human rights and to
international law, and todaywe're not actually in Geneva,
but in another city in Europewell known for its focus on
(01:42):
exactly those two things.
We're here in Strasbourg, hometo the Council of Europe.
Speaker 6 (01:50):
The fighting has stopped, but the dangers have
not.
If we are to form the UnitedStates of Europe, or whatever
name it may take, we must beginnow, and the first practical
step would be to form a Councilof Europe.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Now, just for those who sometimes get a bit confused
about all the Euro terminology,the Council of Europe is not
the European Union.
In fact, it's a much olderinstitution founded in 1949 with
the aim of creating a peaceful,rights-respecting Europe in the
(02:28):
wake of the terrible bloodshedof the Second World War.
Speaker 7 (02:34):
Mr Bevin presided over the conference at St
James's Palace held for theestablishment of a Council of
Europe.
This statute undoubtedly marksa real advance towards European
unity and augurs well for thefuture.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
The Council has 46 member states and is currently
celebrating not just its 75thanniversary, but the 25th
anniversary of one of its keyofficials, the Council of Europe
Commissioner for Human Rightsmy name is Michael O'Flaherty
and I'm the Commissioner forHuman Rights at the Council of
Europe.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Commissioner for Human Rights.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
My name is Michael O'Flaherty and I'm the
Commissioner for Human Rights atthe Council of Europe, so my
first stop in Strasbourg waswith the current holder of that
position, michael O'Flaherty,and my first question with wars
in Ukraine and the Middle East,a possibly turbulent few years
ahead in the United States East,a possibly turbulent few years
(03:28):
ahead in the United States andthe apparent growing popularity
of opinions in Europe itselfthat question our fundamental
rights, around immigration, forexample, what is there to
celebrate?
Speaker 1 (03:37):
We don't have much to celebrate.
We're at a precarious time forhuman rights.
Not only are the violationsdeplorable in so many different
places, but there is arepudiation of rights today.
There's an increasingwillingness, even in this let's
call it the respectablepolitical space, to say if this
human rights gets in my way, ithas to get out of my way.
This is very worrying.
(03:58):
We're at an inflection momentwhere the very future of the
system is at stake.
That's not to say we haven'thad some astonishing
achievements at the extent towhich we have embedded standards
of human rights throughtreaties, built institutions to
support and uphold them and,increasingly, that we see a kind
of an architecture for humanrights protection at the
(04:19):
national level.
This is very, very precious,but it's also very fragile.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
There's a certain amount of cynicism that I
encounter among countries fromthe global south about what they
see as double standards, and Ithink the two that are featuring
always in conversations now areUkraine and Russia's violations
there, which have been talkedabout a great deal, and then
(04:45):
what's happening in the MiddleEast.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
No, I agree with you about the problem that double
standards is creating in termsof belief in willingness to
commit to the human rightssystem, but we've always had
double standards.
25 years ago, I was running theUN human rightsme in Sierra
Leone.
Every night I would put on BBCWorld Service.
I would only ever hear aboutone conflict, the one in Kosovo.
(05:09):
It's so upset me, it's so upsetmy colleagues, it's so upset
the half of that country thatwould listen in to the World
Service in the evening.
So my point here is that it'salways been a problem and it
should not be the basis on whichwe judge and somehow reject the
human rights system.
The system, the standards, theachievements should not be made
(05:33):
hostages to the hypocrisy ofglobal politics.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Well, since you mentioned global politics, let's
have a look at where we are.
Here is Europe, you're inposition.
We have the European Conventionon Human Rights, but we have,
over at the United Nations,three permanent members of the
Security Council who don't geton very powerful members but
(06:00):
also have, I think, lesscommitment to fundamental rights
and principles than you mightlike.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, there isn't the degree of strong political
support for human rights to beseen around the world.
I call on politiciansrepeatedly to speak up for human
rights.
If they believe in them, ifthey consider them important for
their societies, theircountries, our world, they've
got to say that, they've got tochallenge the pushbacks.
And there isn't enough, and wehave to instill a sense of
(06:33):
urgency, a sense of risk ofcollapse, of a very different
future, a dystopian one thatnone of us want to be part of.
So there's still plenty ofgoodwill out there in politics,
international politics, but Iwant to see it more engaged,
more determined, more brave.
We have to resist the voicesagainst human rights, the
(06:55):
counter-human rights voices, bethey about specific details in
some narrow context, like transidentity, or be it in a much
bigger situation of promotingsocial and economic rights to
combat inequality in oursocieties.
Taming of artificialintelligence, the human rights
respectful managing of migrationsituations, the climate crisis
(07:19):
the list is a very long one.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Well, to try to address that long list and to
unite human rights defendersacross Europe, the Council of
Europe brought together animpressive group of people.
Former human rightscommissioners were there, as
well as representatives from theEuropean Union, the
Organisation for Security andCo-operation in Europe, the
(07:46):
European Union's Agency forFundamental Rights, the United
Nations and young human rightsdefenders from across the
continent.
They're tasked to assess thechallenges and discuss how to
work more closely together.
Olaf Skoog, the EU's Specialrepresentative for human rights,
was under no illusions.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Are we worried about the situation?
Yes, very much so, but I thinkthere are ways we can step up
and remedy it if we worktogether.
I think it's very important forus Europeans to just take a
step back and look a little bit,even beyond the quarter century
.
That has been the theme oftoday's conference, because, if
(08:30):
you think about it, much of thecalamities, the most massive
human rights violations, emanatefrom Europe, starting back with
slavery, the way that we haveexploited people around the
world, following with theHolocaust, now Islamophobia, and
we saw the whole Iron Curtainand all the violence, the
massive human rights violationsthat took place behind that wall
(08:53):
for many, many years in adivided Europe.
So it's quite remarkable of howfar we've come based on what we
have experienced.
But that experience, I think, isalso the root, the origin of
the human rights agenda, in away.
That's why I think it'sextremely important now to first
(09:14):
of all understand how ouradoption to the human rights has
served us extremely well, bothin terms of maintaining peace
between countries and insidecountries, but also in promotion
of economic rights and socialand cultural rights, and the
prosperity that the EuropeanUnion countries experience has
(09:36):
been remarkable.
So I think we are advocatingand defending a system that has
proven itself to be the bestsystem.
So when we now see clouds onthe horizon questioning many of
these achievements, I think weneed to be vigilant.
My plea to all, especially theyouth here, is to really keep
(09:59):
our feet to the fire, protectthe privilege that we all have
in living in democraticsocieties and stop this
backsliding that we're seeing.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Meanwhile, peggy Hicks of United Nations Human
Rights stressed that the laws wehave created to uphold human
rights are, in theory, robust,but their benefits may not
always be communicatedeffectively.
So, in the face of sometimeshostile narratives about human
rights, do the institutionstasked with upholding them need
(10:30):
to be more populist aggressiveeven in their messaging?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I think we have to start out by just recognizing
how resilient the human rightsframework is.
We had our big 75th anniversaryof the Universal Declaration
last year and you know we don'tneed new rights.
We have the rights we need.
They matter to people in theirday-to-day lives, but I think we
have we've dropped the ball attimes in terms of how we've
(10:57):
delivered on that message.
And I agree, we have theinstitutions, we have the laws,
but are they really deliveringfor people in the way that they
need to?
And I think part of what weneed to do better is making
those connections, and it goesboth to how we talk about rights
like which rights are wetalking about?
How do economies deliver humanrights?
(11:17):
And really looking at issueslike employment and taxation and
budget in a different way asavenues of human rights delivery
that have sometimes beenoverlooked and Imogen.
You had asked as well about isthe moment to be aggressive?
Speaker 5 (11:33):
Do we need to do something better.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
I think it's not about being more aggressive.
I think we need to understandbetter why we don't have the
support that we need to.
We need to deal with andanalyze what is driving some of
those forces and take them on inan evidence-based way.
But it's also just aboutinvestment as well.
(11:56):
But I really wonder whetherstates really see investment in
those areas as a priority.
I think those who want to pushback on rights do see it as a
priority and they will invest.
So the question is will we putthe political capital, will we
put the resources that we needin this challenging period
forward to protect human rightsin the way that we need to?
(12:19):
The UN as an institution, Ithink, is a vital bridge.
Europe has so much to offer.
We need to work both within andalso use European commitment
and values and engagementglobally to make progress on
human rights so the world cancome together to push for human
rights, and we just have to makethe commitment to invest in it,
(12:42):
both politically and with theresources necessary.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
Can you guys hear me?
My question will be for Mr Vrob.
According to the 2024 WorldJustice Project, With young
people and human rights groups.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
In the audience, questions to the EU and UN
officials came thick and fast.
How well do they work together?
How much support do they getfrom their own governments?
And what about duplication?
Olaf Skog again.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
Look, I think first of all, I think in the area of
human rights I think it's betterthat there is a certain
duplication than that we leaveanything undone.
You know I'd rather have thattoo much action than too little,
especially now.
You know we exchange a lot veryregularly, sometimes very
informally.
(13:37):
I don't go anywhere withoutfirst having checked with what
the High Commissioner for HumanRights, volker Turk, has been
doing with our country so that Ican sort of support and come in
.
But you also asked about how dowe sort of keep this high on
our agenda?
And I have to be very honestwith you that I also struggle
(13:58):
internally in the EU to havethis conversation because for
many, too many, the human rightsit's a little bit of an
afterthought in our policy.
It's to feel a little bit goodabout ourselves and to be able
to say that well, we brought upthis case or whatever.
But I'm trying to persuadepeople that actually this is a
(14:19):
strategic interest for Europe.
The human rights and democracypromotion agenda has to be
central to everything we do inour foreign relations.
And if the people of the worldare able to choose freely which
of course they're not in manycountries, but if they are, they
will choose the model that werepresent.
(14:42):
Therefore, it's so importantthat we hold on to that model,
but also that we keep promotingit globally.
I think that's the hope, and Ihave high expectations with the
youth to keep our feet to thefire.
But also I think that the lightof democracy and human rights
is something that most people inthe world want and aspire to.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Listening to that was Italian student, human rights
defender and member of theEuropean Students' Parliament,
sofia Mosin With her toStrasbourg.
She brought a healthy dose ofscepticism about Europe's
commitment to human rights.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
Europe has always been one of the leaders in human
rights shaping in terms ofinternational law.
Right now, I think two keyelements should be underlined.
First of all, inside Europe,there are constant violations of
(15:40):
human rights, so I don't agreewith the narrative according to
which Europe is a human rightschampion.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
When it comes to human rights in Europe.
Of particular concern to manyin the audience, including Sofia
, is Europe's current policy andheated debate about immigration
.
Speaker 5 (16:02):
It's such a divisive topic and I think some
strategies should be learnedabout the way in which we
communicate about that.
For example, speaking aboutmigration as an economical
opportunity just plays withpeople's fear, so that's not
useful.
(16:22):
For example, when you speakwith a very polarised group of
people who actually have intensefearful emotional response, you
cannot actually speak in thisscientific, data-driven way.
So what?
The work that the EuropeanStudents' Parliament has been
doing so far is to create eventsin which people from different
(16:47):
backgrounds people also withmigratory backgrounds gather
together training workshops, notjust for two hours there is no
time there to get to know eachother, but to really experience
something longer together.
Because in the moment in whichyou get to know the person,
there is a chance to change thisview.
(17:09):
And I know that this is a veryprecise and detailed work that
has to be done person by person,like it's.
It's a very delicate, handcrafted work, but I think that
this is the only way in which wecan change the perception,
because just speaking of generalnarratives doesn't work when
(17:33):
people are driven by fear.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
The work Sofia and her colleagues are doing around
immigration is, as she so welldescribed it, as she so well
described it, delicate,handcrafted.
It takes much time and effort.
But up against that work arefear-mongering and
over-politicised slogans onsocial media, in the mainstream
(17:56):
media and coming out of themouths of politicians.
So how do human rights leaderscounter that?
Peggy Hicks again.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Too often human rights is seen as a barrier, a
hoop governments have to jumpthrough.
One of the things we're reallystressing now is human rights as
a tool.
This is something that can beuseful to governments in
delivering better results acrosstheir agendas, and we have
proof of that being the casethat if human rights are not
(18:24):
taken into account, the resultsare unstable and unsuccessful in
many senses.
So we need to be able todeliver that message, because if
Europe doesn't get this right,I can guarantee you it will not
be good for Europe because itwill be worse in the rest of the
world as well.
So it's a vicious spiral thatwill happen if not more isn't
done.
(18:45):
Michael alluded to EleanorRoosevelt's quote about human
rights happening in the smallplaces close to home.
They certainly do.
They happen in those places andin the dark places in which
people are faced to live andwork and challenged to their
lives and security, and thoseare people that we also need to
protect, to their lives andsecurity, and those are people
(19:05):
that we also need to protect.
And we need to find a betterway to have that conversation,
where migration is notinstrumentalized and used as a
tool to allow leaders to beelected who ultimately will not
just bring in bad policies onmigration, but will also have a
negative impact across the humanrights agenda as a whole.
So just a plea to everyone tocome together, think much more
(19:28):
deeply about how we can addressthe issue of migration in a way
that's human rights respecting.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
An appeal, then, to her own colleagues to think long
and hard about making thedebate about human rights
relevant to ordinary people, tonot get sucked into the argument
.
We sometimes hear that rightsfor some mean losses for others,
and it's me or it's themequation.
Olaf Skog had a timely reminderthat human rights are not
(19:58):
things we generously bestow onothers.
They are standards we must liveup to.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Human rights were constructed to protect ourselves
from aggressors andpersecutions, but they're also
there to protect ourselves fromourselves.
So again, Europe has been theorigin of so much disastrous
(20:27):
human rights violations in theworld, so let's not forget that
those human rights are alsoabout holding ourselves to
account.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
At the end of that discussion, I went to find Sofia
again.
What did she think about whatshe'd heard?
I was surprised to discoverthat, however dismaying the
global upheaval is for youngpeople, whether it's war,
climate change or repression offree speech, she also believes
it can motivate them to work asshe does for something better
(21:01):
Right now.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
For the last five years at least, there has been
this shaking, at least on thesurface, on human being
conscience about the need toprotect human rights.
With these conflicts I thinkpeople who have never
experienced war before kind ofwoke up, at least on the surface
(21:27):
, to understand that humanrights protection is and should
be an ongoing process, aconstant process, and it's not
something that should be endedjust because we were living in a
small bubble of peace.
That's not anymore the case andwe should address that.
And I think right now youngpeople who are living those
(21:50):
conflicts and those globalearthquakes, at a very young age
they can be for real the motorof action to push more for the
respect of human rights insideand outside the European
continent.
Speaker 7 (22:09):
As the ink dries upon the signatures of the ten
ministers, a centuries-old dreamis fulfilled.
This lays the foundations ofsomething new in European life.
It is an epoch-making event,for the Parliament of Europe can
open an age of hope and reasonin the history of the world.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Let's remember, then, where we started this episode
of Inside Geneva.
The Council of Europe wascreated out of the horrors of
the Second World War to be aninstitution to make sure those
horrors never happened again.
The Universal Declaration ofHuman Rights was created around
the same time for similarreasons.
(22:50):
So too was the Fourth GenevaConvention.
Do we need to make the sameviolent mistakes to remind
ourselves why we need thesethings?
The Council of Europe's HumanRights Commissioner, michael
O'Flaherty, hopes it won't cometo that.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Reigniting that passion for human rights that
was so evident everywhere in thelate 1940s.
It's not impossible.
I think we can hold the line.
We can hold the line.
We're going to have a rocky fewyears, but with vigilance and
with a sense of what could belost and with a refusal to yield
, we can achieve a lot.
By the way, another dimensionis that we have to do a better
(23:28):
job of making the business casefor what we're demanding.
We can't just say do it becauseit's a human right, do it
because it's in a treaty.
We have to show, do it, andthis is how it will make your
society better and stronger.
That's the way I talk togovernments about the way we
securitise our borders.
That's the way I talk togovernments about the way we
securitise our borders.
I say you know, if you have ahumane reception policy at your
(23:48):
border, you genuinely considerasylum claims, you'll actually
have more secure borders.
You won't have crazy smugglersdoing horrific things.
And there's many other ways inwhich you can make these kind of
cases.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
You said you thought Europe was strong and could hold
the line.
But what do you mean?
Do you mean protecting rightsinside the Council of Europe
members?
I mean I agree with thehypothetical.
Come February, march next year,say we see continued Russian
indiscriminate bombardment ofcivilians and civilian
(24:23):
infrastructure.
Permanent bombardment ofcivilians and civilian
infrastructure.
We see mass deportations in theUnited States, people being
rounded up.
This is what's being discussed.
In China, we see continuedrepression of human rights
defenders, as we've seen in thelast few days.
What can Europe do about that?
I mean, I was in the Statesjust 10 days ago.
They're just really notinterested in what Europe's got
(24:46):
to say.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Well, the first responsibility in Europe and my
job is to work in support ofrespect for the human rights of
the people who are here, and wehave to really work very hard to
make sure that we don't haveour own backsliding, democratic
backsliding, human rightsbacksliding or, where we have it
, that we resist it with all ofthe skill and resources at our
disposal.
(25:07):
Now I don't like talking abouthypotheticals, but Russia's
aggression is not hypothetical.
The Russian aggression is a waron all of us, not just on
Ukraine.
I'm not a military guy.
I'm in no position to predictwhat the military outcomes are
going to be in the next year orwhatever.
I don't have that knowledge,but I do know what we're
(25:27):
resisting.
We're resisting an attempt todestroy our values, the careful,
precious investment in decencyin our societies that I think is
a feature of Europe.
We're not perfect, make plentyof mistakes, but these are part
of the fundamentals on thecontinent.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
How worried are you I mean, does it keep you awake at
night that we are actually atrisk of throwing that all away?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yes, of course it does.
I've been in the work of humanrights my whole adult life.
I've never seen it moreprecarious.
I've lived through horrors.
You know I've mentioned SierraLeone.
I've lived through the war inBosnia Herzegovina, so I've seen
the worst a human can do to ahuman.
But I haven't seen thechallenging to the system and
the extent to which thechallenging is coming into the
mainstream, respectable centre.
(26:12):
That is the case, I would sayalmost, you know, in recent
months, never mind years.
But I'm not going to acceptdefeatism.
I think of Stéphane Hesel, thegreat French polemicist who died
a few years ago, who wrote thatwonderful book Andignez-vous,
get Furious.
And that's what we need to donow not throw in the towel, not
surrender.
Get indignant, get furious andfight back to save this
(26:35):
astonishing achievement.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
We've heard a lot of ideas in this programme about
how to defend the rights so manyof us agree are precious.
Make them more relevant toeveryday life.
Invest real time and effort inovercoming division and
polarisation here in Europe.
Remember our cruel past and howwe have tried to overcome it.
(27:06):
And that last point fromMichael O'Flaherty, which really
made an impression on me getangry, get furious and get out
there and defend human rightsfor ourselves and for others.
For others.
(27:33):
That's it from this edition ofInside Geneva.
My thanks to the Council ofEurope for inviting me to
participate in thatthought-provoking anniversary.
Next time it's that time of yearagain we get UN correspondents
in Geneva and New York round thetable to reflect on 2024.
What have the last 12 monthsbeen like?
How effective has the UN been?
How genuine is globalcommitment to multilateralism,
(27:57):
international law and therule-based order these days, and
what are our hopes and fearsfor 2025?
Join us on December 10th forthat episode.
A reminder you've beenlistening to Inside Geneva, a
(28:19):
Swissinfo production.
You can email us oninsidegeneva at swissinfoch and
subscribe to us and review uswherever you get your podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
(28:40):
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice
.
I'm Imogen Folks.
Thanks again for listening.
This is Inside Geneva .
I'm your host, imogen Foulkes,and this is a production from
Swissinfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's programme.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
We can't just say do it because it's a human right,
do it because it's in a treaty.
We have to show, do it, andthis is how it will make your
society better and stronger.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
If Europe doesn't get this right, I can guarantee you
it will not be good for Europe,because it will be worse in the
rest of the world as well.
So it's a vicious spiral.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
For many, too many, the human rights is a little bit
of an afterthought, you know,in our policy.
It's to feel a little bit goodabout ourselves.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
Inside Europe there are constant violations of human
rights, so I don't agree withthe narrative.
Europe is a human rightschampion.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I've been in the work of human rights my whole adult
life.
I've never seen it moreprecarious.
I've lived through horrors, soI've seen the worst a human can
do to a human.
But I haven't seen thechallenging to the system and
the extent to which thechallenging is coming into the
mainstream, respectable centre.
That is the case, I would sayalmost, you know, in recent
months, never mind years.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva.
I'm Imogen Fowkes.
Today, as you may have guessedfrom our introduction, we're
focusing on current challengesto human rights and to
international law, and todaywe're not actually in Geneva,
but in another city in Europewell known for its focus on
(01:42):
exactly those two things.
We're here in Strasbourg, hometo the Council of Europe.
Speaker 6 (01:50):
The fighting has stopped, but the dangers have
not.
If we are to form the UnitedStates of Europe, or whatever
name it may take, we must beginnow, and the first practical
step would be to form a Councilof Europe.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Now, just for those who sometimes get a bit confused
about all the Euro terminology,the Council of Europe is not
the European Union.
In fact, it's a much olderinstitution founded in 1949 with
the aim of creating a peaceful,rights-respecting Europe in the
(02:28):
wake of the terrible bloodshedof the Second World War.
Speaker 7 (02:34):
Mr Bevin presided over the conference at St
James's Palace held for theestablishment of a Council of
Europe.
This statute undoubtedly marksa real advance towards European
unity and augurs well for thefuture.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
The Council has 46 member states and is currently
celebrating not just its 75thanniversary, but the 25th
anniversary of one of its keyofficials, the Council of Europe
Commissioner for Human Rightsmy name is Michael O'Flaherty
and I'm the Commissioner forHuman Rights at the Council of
Europe.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Commissioner for Human Rights.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
My name is Michael O'Flaherty and I'm the
Commissioner for Human Rights atthe Council of Europe, so my
first stop in Strasbourg waswith the current holder of that
position, michael O'Flaherty,and my first question with wars
in Ukraine and the Middle East,a possibly turbulent few years
ahead in the United States East,a possibly turbulent few years
(03:28):
ahead in the United States andthe apparent growing popularity
of opinions in Europe itselfthat question our fundamental
rights, around immigration, forexample, what is there to
celebrate?
Speaker 1 (03:37):
We don't have much to celebrate.
We're at a precarious time forhuman rights.
Not only are the violationsdeplorable in so many different
places, but there is arepudiation of rights today.
There's an increasingwillingness, even in this let's
call it the respectablepolitical space, to say if this
human rights gets in my way, ithas to get out of my way.
This is very worrying.
(03:58):
We're at an inflection momentwhere the very future of the
system is at stake.
That's not to say we haven'thad some astonishing
achievements at the extent towhich we have embedded standards
of human rights throughtreaties, built institutions to
support and uphold them and,increasingly, that we see a kind
of an architecture for humanrights protection at the
(04:19):
national level.
This is very, very precious,but it's also very fragile.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
There's a certain amount of cynicism that I
encounter among countries fromthe global south about what they
see as double standards, and Ithink the two that are featuring
always in conversations now areUkraine and Russia's violations
there, which have been talkedabout a great deal, and then
(04:45):
what's happening in the MiddleEast.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
No, I agree with you about the problem that double
standards is creating in termsof belief in willingness to
commit to the human rightssystem, but we've always had
double standards.
25 years ago, I was running theUN human rightsme in Sierra
Leone.
Every night I would put on BBCWorld Service.
I would only ever hear aboutone conflict, the one in Kosovo.
(05:09):
It's so upset me, it's so upsetmy colleagues, it's so upset
the half of that country thatwould listen in to the World
Service in the evening.
So my point here is that it'salways been a problem and it
should not be the basis on whichwe judge and somehow reject the
human rights system.
The system, the standards, theachievements should not be made
(05:33):
hostages to the hypocrisy ofglobal politics.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Well, since you mentioned global politics, let's
have a look at where we are.
Here is Europe, you're inposition.
We have the European Conventionon Human Rights, but we have,
over at the United Nations,three permanent members of the
Security Council who don't geton very powerful members but
(06:00):
also have, I think, lesscommitment to fundamental rights
and principles than you mightlike.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, there isn't the degree of strong political
support for human rights to beseen around the world.
I call on politiciansrepeatedly to speak up for human
rights.
If they believe in them, ifthey consider them important for
their societies, theircountries, our world, they've
got to say that, they've got tochallenge the pushbacks.
And there isn't enough, and wehave to instill a sense of
(06:33):
urgency, a sense of risk ofcollapse, of a very different
future, a dystopian one thatnone of us want to be part of.
So there's still plenty ofgoodwill out there in politics,
international politics, but Iwant to see it more engaged,
more determined, more brave.
We have to resist the voicesagainst human rights, the
(06:55):
counter-human rights voices, bethey about specific details in
some narrow context, like transidentity, or be it in a much
bigger situation of promotingsocial and economic rights to
combat inequality in oursocieties.
Taming of artificialintelligence, the human rights
respectful managing of migrationsituations, the climate crisis
(07:19):
the list is a very long one.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Well, to try to address that long list and to
unite human rights defendersacross Europe, the Council of
Europe brought together animpressive group of people.
Former human rightscommissioners were there, as
well as representatives from theEuropean Union, the
Organisation for Security andCo-operation in Europe, the
(07:46):
European Union's Agency forFundamental Rights, the United
Nations and young human rightsdefenders from across the
continent.
They're tasked to assess thechallenges and discuss how to
work more closely together.
Olaf Skoog, the EU's Specialrepresentative for human rights,
was under no illusions.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Are we worried about the situation?
Yes, very much so, but I thinkthere are ways we can step up
and remedy it if we worktogether.
I think it's very important forus Europeans to just take a
step back and look a little bit,even beyond the quarter century
.
That has been the theme oftoday's conference, because, if
(08:30):
you think about it, much of thecalamities, the most massive
human rights violations, emanatefrom Europe, starting back with
slavery, the way that we haveexploited people around the
world, following with theHolocaust, now Islamophobia, and
we saw the whole Iron Curtainand all the violence, the
massive human rights violationsthat took place behind that wall
(08:53):
for many, many years in adivided Europe.
So it's quite remarkable of howfar we've come based on what we
have experienced.
But that experience, I think, isalso the root, the origin of
the human rights agenda, in away.
That's why I think it'sextremely important now to first
(09:14):
of all understand how ouradoption to the human rights has
served us extremely well, bothin terms of maintaining peace
between countries and insidecountries, but also in promotion
of economic rights and socialand cultural rights, and the
prosperity that the EuropeanUnion countries experience has
(09:36):
been remarkable.
So I think we are advocatingand defending a system that has
proven itself to be the bestsystem.
So when we now see clouds onthe horizon questioning many of
these achievements, I think weneed to be vigilant.
My plea to all, especially theyouth here, is to really keep
(09:59):
our feet to the fire, protectthe privilege that we all have
in living in democraticsocieties and stop this
backsliding that we're seeing.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Meanwhile, peggy Hicks of United Nations Human
Rights stressed that the laws wehave created to uphold human
rights are, in theory, robust,but their benefits may not
always be communicatedeffectively.
So, in the face of sometimeshostile narratives about human
rights, do the institutionstasked with upholding them need
(10:30):
to be more populist aggressiveeven in their messaging?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I think we have to start out by just recognizing
how resilient the human rightsframework is.
We had our big 75th anniversaryof the Universal Declaration
last year and you know we don'tneed new rights.
We have the rights we need.
They matter to people in theirday-to-day lives, but I think we
have we've dropped the ball attimes in terms of how we've
(10:57):
delivered on that message.
And I agree, we have theinstitutions, we have the laws,
but are they really deliveringfor people in the way that they
need to?
And I think part of what weneed to do better is making
those connections, and it goesboth to how we talk about rights
like which rights are wetalking about?
How do economies deliver humanrights?
(11:17):
And really looking at issueslike employment and taxation and
budget in a different way asavenues of human rights delivery
that have sometimes beenoverlooked and Imogen.
You had asked as well about isthe moment to be aggressive?
Speaker 5 (11:33):
Do we need to do something better.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
I think it's not about being more aggressive.
I think we need to understandbetter why we don't have the
support that we need to.
We need to deal with andanalyze what is driving some of
those forces and take them on inan evidence-based way.
But it's also just aboutinvestment as well.
(11:56):
But I really wonder whetherstates really see investment in
those areas as a priority.
I think those who want to pushback on rights do see it as a
priority and they will invest.
So the question is will we putthe political capital, will we
put the resources that we needin this challenging period
forward to protect human rightsin the way that we need to?
(12:19):
The UN as an institution, Ithink, is a vital bridge.
Europe has so much to offer.
We need to work both within andalso use European commitment
and values and engagementglobally to make progress on
human rights so the world cancome together to push for human
rights, and we just have to makethe commitment to invest in it,
(12:42):
both politically and with theresources necessary.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
Can you guys hear me?
My question will be for Mr Vrob.
According to the 2024 WorldJustice Project, With young
people and human rights groups.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
In the audience, questions to the EU and UN
officials came thick and fast.
How well do they work together?
How much support do they getfrom their own governments?
And what about duplication?
Olaf Skog again.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
Look, I think first of all, I think in the area of
human rights I think it's betterthat there is a certain
duplication than that we leaveanything undone.
You know I'd rather have thattoo much action than too little,
especially now.
You know we exchange a lot veryregularly, sometimes very
informally.
(13:37):
I don't go anywhere withoutfirst having checked with what
the High Commissioner for HumanRights, volker Turk, has been
doing with our country so that Ican sort of support and come in
.
But you also asked about how dowe sort of keep this high on
our agenda?
And I have to be very honestwith you that I also struggle
(13:58):
internally in the EU to havethis conversation because for
many, too many, the human rightsit's a little bit of an
afterthought in our policy.
It's to feel a little bit goodabout ourselves and to be able
to say that well, we brought upthis case or whatever.
But I'm trying to persuadepeople that actually this is a
(14:19):
strategic interest for Europe.
The human rights and democracypromotion agenda has to be
central to everything we do inour foreign relations.
And if the people of the worldare able to choose freely which
of course they're not in manycountries, but if they are, they
will choose the model that werepresent.
(14:42):
Therefore, it's so importantthat we hold on to that model,
but also that we keep promotingit globally.
I think that's the hope, and Ihave high expectations with the
youth to keep our feet to thefire.
But also I think that the lightof democracy and human rights
is something that most people inthe world want and aspire to.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Listening to that was Italian student, human rights
defender and member of theEuropean Students' Parliament,
sofia Mosin With her toStrasbourg.
She brought a healthy dose ofscepticism about Europe's
commitment to human rights.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
Europe has always been one of the leaders in human
rights shaping in terms ofinternational law.
Right now, I think two keyelements should be underlined.
First of all, inside Europe,there are constant violations of
(15:40):
human rights, so I don't agreewith the narrative according to
which Europe is a human rightschampion.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
When it comes to human rights in Europe.
Of particular concern to manyin the audience, including Sofia
, is Europe's current policy andheated debate about immigration
.
Speaker 5 (16:02):
It's such a divisive topic and I think some
strategies should be learnedabout the way in which we
communicate about that.
For example, speaking aboutmigration as an economical
opportunity just plays withpeople's fear, so that's not
useful.
(16:22):
For example, when you speakwith a very polarised group of
people who actually have intensefearful emotional response, you
cannot actually speak in thisscientific, data-driven way.
So what?
The work that the EuropeanStudents' Parliament has been
doing so far is to create eventsin which people from different
(16:47):
backgrounds people also withmigratory backgrounds gather
together training workshops, notjust for two hours there is no
time there to get to know eachother, but to really experience
something longer together.
Because in the moment in whichyou get to know the person,
there is a chance to change thisview.
(17:09):
And I know that this is a veryprecise and detailed work that
has to be done person by person,like it's.
It's a very delicate, handcrafted work, but I think that
this is the only way in which wecan change the perception,
because just speaking of generalnarratives doesn't work when
(17:33):
people are driven by fear.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
The work Sofia and her colleagues are doing around
immigration is, as she so welldescribed it, as she so well
described it, delicate,handcrafted.
It takes much time and effort.
But up against that work arefear-mongering and
over-politicised slogans onsocial media, in the mainstream
(17:56):
media and coming out of themouths of politicians.
So how do human rights leaderscounter that?
Peggy Hicks again.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Too often human rights is seen as a barrier, a
hoop governments have to jumpthrough.
One of the things we're reallystressing now is human rights as
a tool.
This is something that can beuseful to governments in
delivering better results acrosstheir agendas, and we have
proof of that being the casethat if human rights are not
(18:24):
taken into account, the resultsare unstable and unsuccessful in
many senses.
So we need to be able todeliver that message, because if
Europe doesn't get this right,I can guarantee you it will not
be good for Europe because itwill be worse in the rest of the
world as well.
So it's a vicious spiral thatwill happen if not more isn't
done.
(18:45):
Michael alluded to EleanorRoosevelt's quote about human
rights happening in the smallplaces close to home.
They certainly do.
They happen in those places andin the dark places in which
people are faced to live andwork and challenged to their
lives and security, and thoseare people that we also need to
protect, to their lives andsecurity, and those are people
(19:05):
that we also need to protect.
And we need to find a betterway to have that conversation,
where migration is notinstrumentalized and used as a
tool to allow leaders to beelected who ultimately will not
just bring in bad policies onmigration, but will also have a
negative impact across the humanrights agenda as a whole.
So just a plea to everyone tocome together, think much more
(19:28):
deeply about how we can addressthe issue of migration in a way
that's human rights respecting.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
An appeal, then, to her own colleagues to think long
and hard about making thedebate about human rights
relevant to ordinary people, tonot get sucked into the argument
.
We sometimes hear that rightsfor some mean losses for others,
and it's me or it's themequation.
Olaf Skog had a timely reminderthat human rights are not
(19:58):
things we generously bestow onothers.
They are standards we must liveup to.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Human rights were constructed to protect ourselves
from aggressors andpersecutions, but they're also
there to protect ourselves fromourselves.
So again, Europe has been theorigin of so much disastrous
(20:27):
human rights violations in theworld, so let's not forget that
those human rights are alsoabout holding ourselves to
account.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
At the end of that discussion, I went to find Sofia
again.
What did she think about whatshe'd heard?
I was surprised to discoverthat, however dismaying the
global upheaval is for youngpeople, whether it's war,
climate change or repression offree speech, she also believes
it can motivate them to work asshe does for something better
(21:01):
Right now.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
For the last five years at least, there has been
this shaking, at least on thesurface, on human being
conscience about the need toprotect human rights.
With these conflicts I thinkpeople who have never
experienced war before kind ofwoke up, at least on the surface
(21:27):
, to understand that humanrights protection is and should
be an ongoing process, aconstant process, and it's not
something that should be endedjust because we were living in a
small bubble of peace.
That's not anymore the case andwe should address that.
And I think right now youngpeople who are living those
(21:50):
conflicts and those globalearthquakes, at a very young age
they can be for real the motorof action to push more for the
respect of human rights insideand outside the European
continent.
Speaker 7 (22:09):
As the ink dries upon the signatures of the ten
ministers, a centuries-old dreamis fulfilled.
This lays the foundations ofsomething new in European life.
It is an epoch-making event,for the Parliament of Europe can
open an age of hope and reasonin the history of the world.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Let's remember, then, where we started this episode
of Inside Geneva.
The Council of Europe wascreated out of the horrors of
the Second World War to be aninstitution to make sure those
horrors never happened again.
The Universal Declaration ofHuman Rights was created around
the same time for similarreasons.
(22:50):
So too was the Fourth GenevaConvention.
Do we need to make the sameviolent mistakes to remind
ourselves why we need thesethings?
The Council of Europe's HumanRights Commissioner, michael
O'Flaherty, hopes it won't cometo that.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Reigniting that passion for human rights that
was so evident everywhere in thelate 1940s.
It's not impossible.
I think we can hold the line.
We can hold the line.
We're going to have a rocky fewyears, but with vigilance and
with a sense of what could belost and with a refusal to yield
, we can achieve a lot.
By the way, another dimensionis that we have to do a better
(23:28):
job of making the business casefor what we're demanding.
We can't just say do it becauseit's a human right, do it
because it's in a treaty.
We have to show, do it, andthis is how it will make your
society better and stronger.
That's the way I talk togovernments about the way we
securitise our borders.
That's the way I talk togovernments about the way we
securitise our borders.
I say you know, if you have ahumane reception policy at your
(23:48):
border, you genuinely considerasylum claims, you'll actually
have more secure borders.
You won't have crazy smugglersdoing horrific things.
And there's many other ways inwhich you can make these kind of
cases.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
You said you thought Europe was strong and could hold
the line.
But what do you mean?
Do you mean protecting rightsinside the Council of Europe
members?
I mean I agree with thehypothetical.
Come February, march next year,say we see continued Russian
indiscriminate bombardment ofcivilians and civilian
(24:23):
infrastructure.
Permanent bombardment ofcivilians and civilian
infrastructure.
We see mass deportations in theUnited States, people being
rounded up.
This is what's being discussed.
In China, we see continuedrepression of human rights
defenders, as we've seen in thelast few days.
What can Europe do about that?
I mean, I was in the Statesjust 10 days ago.
They're just really notinterested in what Europe's got
(24:46):
to say.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Well, the first responsibility in Europe and my
job is to work in support ofrespect for the human rights of
the people who are here, and wehave to really work very hard to
make sure that we don't haveour own backsliding, democratic
backsliding, human rightsbacksliding or, where we have it
, that we resist it with all ofthe skill and resources at our
disposal.
(25:07):
Now I don't like talking abouthypotheticals, but Russia's
aggression is not hypothetical.
The Russian aggression is a waron all of us, not just on
Ukraine.
I'm not a military guy.
I'm in no position to predictwhat the military outcomes are
going to be in the next year orwhatever.
I don't have that knowledge,but I do know what we're
(25:27):
resisting.
We're resisting an attempt todestroy our values, the careful,
precious investment in decencyin our societies that I think is
a feature of Europe.
We're not perfect, make plentyof mistakes, but these are part
of the fundamentals on thecontinent.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
How worried are you I mean, does it keep you awake at
night that we are actually atrisk of throwing that all away?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yes, of course it does.
I've been in the work of humanrights my whole adult life.
I've never seen it moreprecarious.
I've lived through horrors.
You know I've mentioned SierraLeone.
I've lived through the war inBosnia Herzegovina, so I've seen
the worst a human can do to ahuman.
But I haven't seen thechallenging to the system and
the extent to which thechallenging is coming into the
mainstream, respectable centre.
(26:12):
That is the case, I would sayalmost, you know, in recent
months, never mind years.
But I'm not going to acceptdefeatism.
I think of Stéphane Hesel, thegreat French polemicist who died
a few years ago, who wrote thatwonderful book Andignez-vous,
get Furious.
And that's what we need to donow not throw in the towel, not
surrender.
Get indignant, get furious andfight back to save this
(26:35):
astonishing achievement.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
We've heard a lot of ideas in this programme about
how to defend the rights so manyof us agree are precious.
Make them more relevant toeveryday life.
Invest real time and effort inovercoming division and
polarisation here in Europe.
Remember our cruel past and howwe have tried to overcome it.
(27:06):
And that last point fromMichael O'Flaherty, which really
made an impression on me getangry, get furious and get out
there and defend human rightsfor ourselves and for others.
For others.
(27:33):
That's it from this edition ofInside Geneva.
My thanks to the Council ofEurope for inviting me to
participate in thatthought-provoking anniversary.
Next time it's that time of yearagain we get UN correspondents
in Geneva and New York round thetable to reflect on 2024.
What have the last 12 monthsbeen like?
How effective has the UN been?
How genuine is globalcommitment to multilateralism,
(27:57):
international law and therule-based order these days, and
what are our hopes and fearsfor 2025?
Join us on December 10th forthat episode.
A reminder you've beenlistening to Inside Geneva, a
(28:19):
Swissinfo production.
You can email us oninsidegeneva at swissinfoch and
subscribe to us and review uswherever you get your podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
(28:40):
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice
.
I'm Imogen Folks.
Thanks again for listening.
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