November 12, 2024 • 31 mins
This week Inside Geneva goes to New York. The United Nations (UN) General Assembly is hearing multiple reports of serious human rights violations.
“I think it’s more difficult to get the human rights message [across] here in New York at the General Assembly. But hopefully we will be heard,” says Mariana Katzarova, UN special rapporteur on human rights in Russia.
Ukraine, the Middle East and Sudan are on the agenda. But so is the situation of human rights groups inside Russia.
“The situation with political prisoners in Russia today is no longer a crisis, it’s a catastrophe. We now have more political prisoners in Russia alone than there were in the whole of the Soviet Union, so that’s 15 countries put together,” says Vladimir Kara-Murza, a former political prisoner.
In Geneva, the Human Rights Council can order investigations – but will New York respond?
“There is Gaza, the situation in Sudan, Myanmar, Syria – so many conflicts and humanitarian disasters, and there’s an inability of member states to reach an agreement,” says Louis Charbonneau, UN Director at Human Rights Watch NGO.
The UN Security Council, dominated by the US, China, Russia, the United Kingdom and France, can’t agree – so it’s paralysed.
“I do have moments where I perhaps would like to stand up in the middle of the chamber and say: ‘Hey, do something!’ But that’s not professional and I would lose my press pass,” says journalist Dawn Clancy.
The UN’s main role is upholding peace and security. Is New York failing?
“For peace and security, human rights are the core. Without human rights we cannot have peace or security,” says Katzarova.
Join host Imogen Foulkes for Inside Geneva – in New York!
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Host: Imogen Foulkes
Production assitant: Claire-Marie Germain
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
This is Inside Geneva .
I'm your host, imogen Foulkes,and this is a production from
Swissinfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
In today's programme.
I think it's more difficult toget the human rights message
here in New York at the GeneralAssembly, but hopefully you know
we will be heard.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
The situation with political prisoners in Russia
today is no longer a crisis.
It's a catastrophe.
We have more politicalprisoners in Russia alone now
than there were in the whole ofthe Soviet Union.
So that's 15 countries puttogether.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Gaza and the situation in Sudan, myanmar,
syria.
So many conflicts andhumanitarian disasters and
there's an inability of themember states to reach an
agreement.
Speaker 5 (01:02):
I do have moments where perhaps I would like to
stand up in the middle of thechamber and just say, hey, do
something.
But that's not professional andI would get kicked out and I
would lose my press pass.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
For peace and security, human rights is the
core.
Without human rights, we cannothave peace or security.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva.
I'm Imogen Fowkes and, as maybeyou can hear, and as I promised
on our last episode, we're herein New York this week, in part
to see how human rightsdefenders get on when they put
their case here, far from the UNHuman Rights Council in Geneva.
(01:44):
But first, slightlyembarrassing confession coming
up In all my years as a UnitedNations correspondent and all my
visits to New York, I've neveractually been inside UN
headquarters.
So I'm standing outside rightnow.
It is a beautiful sunny autumnday, or maybe, since I'm here, I
(02:07):
should say fall day here inmidtown Manhattan, and the first
thing I'm going to do once Iget through UN security is go
and catch up with a NewYork-based colleague.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
I'm Dawn Clancy.
I'm a reporter here at UNheadquarters in New York and I
write about the UN you writeabout the UN from here in New
York.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
What's the?
I mean, how high on your radar,your journalist's radar, is
Geneva.
Because in Geneva there's aconstant, not just from the
journalists we write about it alot but obviously from the whole
humanitarian side of the UN,which is based in Geneva.
There's a constant, not justfrom the journalists we write
about it a lot but obviouslyfrom the whole humanitarian side
of the UN, which is based inGeneva.
Utter frustration, grief,almost at the paralysis of the
(02:54):
Security Council.
Now, when we look at all of theconflicts that we've got, we
couldn't get any action on Syria, Ukraine, Russia, not really.
Now we have the Middle Eastnothing there as well, and from
Geneva's point of view, they seethe kind of rules-based order
falling apart because of thisparalysis.
Speaker 5 (03:16):
Well, that's absolutely one thing we have in
common that frustration.
Here, being in New York, youget to sit in the room where
they're giving their speeches inthe Security Council and
they're repeating themselves andyou know at the end of this
meeting, like there was just ameeting today on Gaza, on the
UNRWA decision made by theIsraeli Knesset, and you have
all these people sitting aroundthis horseshoe table talking and
(03:38):
you know nothing's going tohappen afterwards, which is
frustrating, just like people inGeneva and I guess, being here,
I do have moments where perhapsI would like to stand up in the
middle of the chamber and justsay, hey, do something.
But that's not professional andI would get kicked out and I
would lose my press pass.
No, but I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I think we're all inside standing up and shouting
and saying, but I'm with you.
I think we're all insidestanding up and shouting and
saying, hey, do something.
But is there any feeling?
Do you sense it ever in NewYork, that if this goes on, we
(04:18):
might as well not have theUnited Nations.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
I have thought that before I have, especially when
the war in Ukraine burst open.
I definitely thought thatbecause I guess I was still
fairly new here and I just hadthis expectation that the
Security Council was going tohave a meeting, they were going
to get on it and they were goingto fix it, and that didn't
happen, of course.
But as time has gone on, I havegrown to appreciate the role
that the United Nations plays,even if it can't fulfill its
(04:42):
mandate.
We're talking about a specificorgan like the Security Council,
but it is truly the one placein the world where all these
world leaders can get together.
Even if they're not talking toeach other, they still all
convene here.
You know UN, a high-level weekand I think that is really
important because otherwise Idon't know where else that would
(05:03):
happen.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
So I'd actually go along with Dawn's view there.
The UN is still really the onlyplace the big powers regularly
get together and talk, andgoodness knows right now we need
them to do that.
But, as you can hear, I'm backoutside UN headquarters trudging
the streets of Manhattan.
If you're ever here, bringcomfy shoes, but it's worth it,
because our next stop is reallyquite special.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Louis Charbonneau, UN Director at Human Rights Watch,
and we're in New York City inour headquarters in the Empire
State Building.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
It's a prime real estate.
Very lucky to be here, I think.
I'm quite interested, sinceI've been here a couple of days
now and it's kind of weird that,although I've been a UN
correspondent myself for 20years now, I've actually it's
the first time I've been intothe UN in New York.
Some of the things felt reallythe same, other things felt
(06:16):
really quite different.
I'm wondering in Geneva,because it's the humanitarian
headquarters of the UN, there isfrustration pretty much from
top to bottom at New York thatthe humanitarian agencies feel
that they are having to mop upblood literally because of the
(06:39):
failures in New York of thepolitical wing of the United
Nations of the United Nations.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
So, yes, new York as the United Nations headquarters
really is kind of the politicalcenter of the UN system.
And certainly, if you look atthe UN Security Council and you
consider what it does or doesn'tdo on issues like the horrific
hostilities in Gaza, on thesituation in Sudan, myanmar,
(07:13):
syria, so many conflicts andhumanitarian disasters that have
been going on for a very longtime, and there's an inability
of the member states to reach anagreement.
And it's really disagreementsamong the big powers, really the
(07:33):
five permanent Security Councilmembers, russia and China on
the one side and the US, unitedKingdom and France on the other
side.
They're these deep geopoliticaldivisions that we increasingly
see.
They're making it difficult forthe Security Council to do
anything.
(07:53):
And then, yes, in Geneva, yourhumanitarian people are left to
deal with this.
And you're right to talk aboutmopping up the blood and it's
almost a cliche to talk about alack of political will, and
there is that.
But it's also that there's apolitical determination on the
(08:13):
part of some people to preventany action to happen.
There is political will toblock the Security Council from
constraining Israel.
I mean, we at Human Rights Watchand other organizations have
called on governments to stopsupplying weapons, that they
(08:33):
call on Israel to comply withinternational humanitarian law,
but then they give them bombsthat weigh thousands of pounds
and are inherentlyindiscriminate in a densely
populated place like Gaza.
I don't see how they canreconcile those two things.
(08:54):
But double standards, no border.
We see Russia talking aboutprotecting civilians in Gaza,
china as well, and we all knowwhat Russia is doing in Ukraine,
where they're bombing hospitalsand schools and theaters and
the reports of torture indetention and summary execution
(09:19):
of prisoners.
But if there's one thing thatis really difficult to listen to
, is the way that governmentscompartmentalize and they will
condemn Russia for attackingcivilians in Ukraine, which they
should and we do.
(09:40):
That is a good thing.
We would never want to saydon't do that.
But then to turn around and togive the government of Israel a
free pass because it's theirfriend and ally.
It really undermines themessage when they're saying the
right things aboutaccountability and protection of
(10:03):
civilians in one context andthen turning around and saying,
well, but it's OK in Gaza.
It harms the message.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
But into that UN paralysis that we all complain
about so much in Geneva comes ahopeful UN special rapporteur
and back in UN headquartersshe's got a big day ahead.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
I'm Mariana Katsarova .
I'm the United Nations specialrapporteur on the human rights
situation in the RussianFederation and we're in New York
where I am delivering today mynew report.
It's a thematic report calledTorturing the Russian Federation
(10:51):
a tool for repression at homeand aggression abroad.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
You've also got an event here with former political
prisoners from Russia, formerUkrainians who have been held in
Russia.
It's been viewed as somewhatcontroversial to put Ukrainians
and Russians on the same panelfor a side event, and yet I
sense that what you're wantingto show New York, and
(11:20):
particularly people who may havea rather simplistic view, is
that in both these countriesthere are people absolutely
dedicated to promoting humanrights.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
I think it's very important to keep in mind the
title of my report and the linkbetween repression at home and
aggression abroad, and I thinkthis is manifested through the
tool of torture, the strategy oftorture that has been employed
by the Russian authoritiesagainst their own people,
(11:54):
against the political prisoners,the marginalized group like
LGBT persons or conscientiousobjectors to military service,
or the mobilized men who refuseto fight in Ukraine, indigenous
people, national minorities.
At the same time, the samesevere torture methods are used
(12:16):
against Ukrainian detainees inRussian prisons.
They catch them on the occupiedterritories, arbitrarily detain
them Ukrainian civilians,Ukrainian military and then
deported them to the RussianFederation, where many of these
people are kept without thecharge, again incommunicado,
(12:37):
being subjected to torture,anything from sexual violence
and rape to use of electricshocks.
All these torture methodsactually have colorful names.
This is how, in the Russian lawenforcement system, they're
known, both by victims andperpetrators.
So, for example, the electric,prolonged electric shocks to the
(12:58):
sensitive parts of the body,very often to the genitals,
using a field military telephonecalled topic is known in Russia
as a call to friend or a callto Putin.
This is the name of the torturemethod.
I mean there are many of thesecolorful names.
It's almost sinister, and Ihave presented them in the
(13:21):
report.
Putting the Ukrainians andRussians together is also
because, first of all, at myinvitation, here are more than
two dozen Russian human rightsdefenders from inside Russia and
outside who are continuingtheir human rights work.
But also I've invited arepresentative, the director of
(13:45):
the Nobel Peace Prize-winningNGO Center for Civil Liberties
from Kiev, who are continuingtogether the two civil societies
to help each other in findingthe Ukrainian detainees or
documenting abuses for futurecourt proceedings and
accountability abuses for futurecourt proceedings and
(14:09):
accountability.
The work that these humanrights organizations are doing,
they're doing it together in away, and this is the hope for
the future as well, Because inany war you have the level of
unacceptance and even hatredbetween people, but here we have
human rights defenders workingtogether in order to have this
(14:29):
future justice for the warcrimes, for the torture which is
performed by the Russianauthorities, both in the Russian
Federation and inside Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
This was the inspiration Mariana Katsarova
tried to instill in jadeddiplomats in New York, as you
can imagine from herdescriptions there, the
experiences of the human rightsdefenders she brought to the UN
from both Russia and Ukrainewere often hard to hear.
The side event heard from avery young woman living in Kyiv
(15:07):
who, visiting her father inCrimea who was ill with cancer,
was arrested and detained inRussia for months.
It also heard from one of themost famous Russian political
prisoners of all time, vladimirKaramurza, recently released in
a historic prisoner swap.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Just three months ago I was certain I was going to
die in that Siberian prison.
I never thought I was gettingout.
So this miracle, the prisonexchange on the 1st of August.
It was a miracle that's theonly way I can describe it but
it was in so many ways ahuman-made miracle that was made
possible by relentless,sustained advocacy by so many
people in the democratic world.
(15:49):
The situation with politicalprisoners in Russia today is no
longer a crisis.
It's a catastrophe.
We have more politicalprisoners in Russia alone now
than there were in the whole ofthe Soviet Union, so that's 15
countries put together.
Towards this later period inthe middle of the 1980s, in
Putin's Russia, people aregetting longer prison sentences
(16:12):
for peacefully expressing theiropinions than other people get
for rape or murder or drugtrafficking.
This is the reality of VladimirPutin's Russia today afterwards
I caught up with journalistdawn Clancy again.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
I found this event to be incredibly informative and I
did indeed learn loads of whatI didn't know before about
Russia torture.
When you're here in New York,you're focused on the Security
Council and everything's really,really political and you forget
the people.
But then when you have a sideevent, like we attended today,
(16:49):
and you get to hear stories ofpeople who were political
prisoners and held in jails andthen released, and you see the
pain on their faces and you hearit in their voices that they're
trying to make a difference, Imean that's really impactful.
And I think that goes back toyour question about UN and its
relevancy.
That is.
One of the gems of the UN isthat we can have events like
(17:12):
that and people can cometogether in that humanitarian
space and get regular people totalk about the impact of
decisions that are being made atthe UN or not being made at the
UN and Security Council and howit impacts them.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Do you think it's particularly important at this
juncture for Russians, humanrights defenders in Russia, to
come across the pond to theUnited States and show this
different picture A veryrepressive regime, not
necessarily one you can easilydo a deal with and the fact that
(17:51):
there are still people, verydifferent Russians, who are
defending their human rightsdespite the huge risks to
themselves?
Speaker 5 (17:59):
Absolutely, because in war, what's the first?
They say it's what's the firstcasualty of war.
Is the truth?
Okay, that's absolutely thecase here and it happens here at
the UN and you get a veryclosed picture of what's
happening.
I, before I attended that event,I would not have known about
these Russian lawyers andadvocates who are fighting for
(18:23):
people who are wrongfully inprison.
I absolutely think that needsto be part of the conversation,
and the reason it needs to be isbecause it's almost taboo to do
so in the first place, tomention, while there's a war
going on in Ukraine.
Well, you know, there's alsopeople on the Russian side who
are struggling.
The more we have thoseconversations, the more people
(18:45):
will get used to it and maybe wecan work with that taboo a
little bit.
But it is a bit frustrating,even as a journalist, because
you have to walk a line.
Well, if I bring this up about,why are you talking about
Russia?
You know they invaded Ukraine,you know.
But Russia is a country, it'speople.
That's where all the storiesare, that's where all the
(19:06):
shading is.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
But it's not just the lack of nuance in our
understanding of what'shappening in Russia.
That's a challenge for Russianhuman rights defenders hoping
for support here in New YorkOver the next 48 hours, there's
a packed programme at the UN.
The Commission of Inquiry onUkraine will deliver its report
to the General Assembly, whichwill also hear multiple reports
(19:33):
on the Middle East.
I've literally just bumped intoNavi Pile, former UN Human
Rights Commissioner and now thechair of the inquiry team for
Israel and the occupiedterritories.
All this is likely to suckattention away from people,
courageous though they are, whocome from a country many
(19:53):
diplomats here view themselvesat war with.
Let's talk to Human RightsWatch's Louis Charbonneau again.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
Russian human rights defenders need to be supported,
they need to be nurtured andthere needs to be attention to
the work they're doing.
It takes so much courage to bea human rights defender in
Russia and even outside Russia,because we have seen this
(20:23):
increasing phenomenon oftransnational repression, where
it is no longer enough to crossthe border from a country where
the government might try to putyou in prison or torture you or
even murder you right.
So Russia has already proventhat it is willing to go abroad
(20:50):
and hunt people down, so peoplewho are willing to go out
publicly and talk about thesituation that they're facing
inside Russia, where it hasreally become just increasingly
a full-blown authoritarian state.
It's really great that they hada chance to have a platform.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
And yet in the same 48 hours there was also the
Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine.
There's the Special Rapporteuron the Occupied Territories,
there's Navi Pile, who I raninto yesterday, commission of
Inquiry on the OccupiedTerritories.
So there's this big competitionfor attention in some of them
and I felt a little bit with theRussian one not really getting
(21:37):
the attention they mightactually need.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Yeah, one thing that I wish they didn't do it like
this, where they have all ofthese human rights bodies,
mechanisms showing up at thesame time.
They're only 24 hours in a dayand eight, nine hours in a
workday, and you can onlyschedule so many press
(22:03):
conferences and journalists anddiplomats can only go to so many
.
We shouldn't have them all atthe same time.
It would be great if they couldstagger them so that we could
have a week with the Russianhuman rights defenders and
Russian human rights experts, aweek to talk to the ones who are
focusing on what's happeninginside Ukraine, then a week to
(22:28):
focus on what's happening inIsrael, Palestine but
unfortunately I'm not the onewho's scheduling these things
and they cram it all into onevery short period and it's just
not fair.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Still into this competitive environment goes
Mariana Katsarova.
She's just about to head intothe General Assembly now to
present her report on torture inRussia.
But I've managed to catch upwith her.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I think it's more difficult to get the human
rights message here in New Yorkat the General Assembly, but I'm
having my interactive dialoguewith states today so hopefully
you know we will be heard.
I always say to member statesin Geneva please brief your
(23:22):
counterparts, engage them better, because it's the same member
states but with a differentlevel of understanding for human
rights here in New York, thedelegations and in Geneva, where
they're experts of course inGeneva because they deal with
the Human Rights Council issues.
So I think the connectionbetween New York and Geneva has
(23:45):
to be strengthened.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
What would you like the General Assembly to do?
I mean, what would be the bestoutcome once you've spoken to
them?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Well, I hope that, first of all, in any other
resolutions or decisions theGeneral Assembly will be taking
on connected to either the waragainst Ukraine or the Russian
Federation itself, that theytake into account my reports and
(24:14):
my recommendations itself.
That they take into account myreports and my recommendations,
they take into account thesituation with human rights and,
again, given that the expertsof the member states are at the
Human Rights Council in Geneva,I'm really hoping that it will
be able to, first of all, gettheir attention, but also
(24:35):
they'll be using it and theywill be pushing the agenda of
putting pressure on the Russianauthorities to comply with their
own obligations to the UN, tothe international standards, to
the UN conventions.
That's very important becausethere cannot be, you know, for
peace and security, human rightsis the core.
(24:57):
Without human rights, we cannothave peace or security.
And this is what New Yorkdiscusses in the General
Assembly.
It's protecting the peace andthe security.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
It's so nice to see you you too.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Peace and security.
How wonderful if the UN couldreally safeguard those things
for all of us, but right nowit's not doing too well,
unfortunately.
In this episode we've tried toexplore why that might be from
the power games and paralysis ofthe UN Security Council to an
over-simplistic black-and-whiteview of the UN Security Council,
(25:35):
to an oversimplistic black andwhite view of the world.
Just this morning, to MarianaKatsarova's dismay after all her
hard work, the New York Timescarried an article about Russian
torture in Ukraine, with nomention of the brutal repression
faced by human rights defenders, journalists and lawyers inside
(25:56):
Russia itself.
It's been interesting to seethe similarities and differences
between Geneva and New York thesame slightly bureaucratic
atmosphere, the same soulless UNcafes, the same rigorous
security, but over here moreglobal politics and less detail
(26:17):
and focus on human rights.
We hear a lot these days abouthow dysfunctional the UN is, how
bloated, how ineffective and,frankly, five days in New York
has reminded me of all thosethings, of all those things.
But then I see the hope on thefaces of those young Russians
(26:39):
who have suffered terrible abuseand have come all the way here
looking for support.
We need an effective UN toaddress that and so many other
global challenges.
The UN is made up of its memberstates.
They make the policy, theydecide.
They appoint people likeMariana Katsarova to scrutinise
human rights in Russia or NaviPile to investigate the
(27:03):
situation in Israel and theoccupied territories.
They do their work.
They bring in-depth reports tothe UN.
The least member states can do,I think, is listen, understand
and then hopefully act, andthat's it from this edition of
Inside Geneva.
My thanks to Louis Charbonneau,mariana Katsarova and Dawn
(27:25):
Clancy.
We hope you enjoyed our NewYork adventure.
Next time we'll be in Strasbourg, where the Council of Europe's
Commissioner for Human Rights ismarking 25 years.
It's a body that works closelywith UN human rights and, as
some listeners may know,switzerland currently holds the
(27:46):
position of Secretary General atthe Council.
We'll be there for a veryspecial debate, standing up for
human rights in challengingtimes.
Do join us then.
And for now, thanks forlistening to Inside Geneva.
A reminder you've beenlistening to Inside Geneva, a
(28:09):
Swiss Info production.
You can email us oninsidegeneva at swissinfoch and
subscribe to us and review uswherever you get your podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
(28:30):
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice
.
I'm Imogen Folks.
Thanks again for listening.
This is Inside Geneva .
I'm your host, imogen Foulkes,and this is a production from
Swissinfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
In today's programme.
I think it's more difficult toget the human rights message
here in New York at the GeneralAssembly, but hopefully you know
we will be heard.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
The situation with political prisoners in Russia
today is no longer a crisis.
It's a catastrophe.
We have more politicalprisoners in Russia alone now
than there were in the whole ofthe Soviet Union.
So that's 15 countries puttogether.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Gaza and the situation in Sudan, myanmar,
syria.
So many conflicts andhumanitarian disasters and
there's an inability of themember states to reach an
agreement.
Speaker 5 (01:02):
I do have moments where perhaps I would like to
stand up in the middle of thechamber and just say, hey, do
something.
But that's not professional andI would get kicked out and I
would lose my press pass.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
For peace and security, human rights is the
core.
Without human rights, we cannothave peace or security.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva.
I'm Imogen Fowkes and, as maybeyou can hear, and as I promised
on our last episode, we're herein New York this week, in part
to see how human rightsdefenders get on when they put
their case here, far from the UNHuman Rights Council in Geneva.
(01:44):
But first, slightlyembarrassing confession coming
up In all my years as a UnitedNations correspondent and all my
visits to New York, I've neveractually been inside UN
headquarters.
So I'm standing outside rightnow.
It is a beautiful sunny autumnday, or maybe, since I'm here, I
(02:07):
should say fall day here inmidtown Manhattan, and the first
thing I'm going to do once Iget through UN security is go
and catch up with a NewYork-based colleague.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
I'm Dawn Clancy.
I'm a reporter here at UNheadquarters in New York and I
write about the UN you writeabout the UN from here in New
York.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
What's the?
I mean, how high on your radar,your journalist's radar, is
Geneva.
Because in Geneva there's aconstant, not just from the
journalists we write about it alot but obviously from the whole
humanitarian side of the UN,which is based in Geneva.
There's a constant, not justfrom the journalists we write
about it a lot but obviouslyfrom the whole humanitarian side
of the UN, which is based inGeneva.
Utter frustration, grief,almost at the paralysis of the
(02:54):
Security Council.
Now, when we look at all of theconflicts that we've got, we
couldn't get any action on Syria, Ukraine, Russia, not really.
Now we have the Middle Eastnothing there as well, and from
Geneva's point of view, they seethe kind of rules-based order
falling apart because of thisparalysis.
Speaker 5 (03:16):
Well, that's absolutely one thing we have in
common that frustration.
Here, being in New York, youget to sit in the room where
they're giving their speeches inthe Security Council and
they're repeating themselves andyou know at the end of this
meeting, like there was just ameeting today on Gaza, on the
UNRWA decision made by theIsraeli Knesset, and you have
all these people sitting aroundthis horseshoe table talking and
(03:38):
you know nothing's going tohappen afterwards, which is
frustrating, just like people inGeneva and I guess, being here,
I do have moments where perhapsI would like to stand up in the
middle of the chamber and justsay, hey, do something.
But that's not professional andI would get kicked out and I
would lose my press pass.
No, but I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I think we're all inside standing up and shouting
and saying, but I'm with you.
I think we're all insidestanding up and shouting and
saying, hey, do something.
But is there any feeling?
Do you sense it ever in NewYork, that if this goes on, we
(04:18):
might as well not have theUnited Nations.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
I have thought that before I have, especially when
the war in Ukraine burst open.
I definitely thought thatbecause I guess I was still
fairly new here and I just hadthis expectation that the
Security Council was going tohave a meeting, they were going
to get on it and they were goingto fix it, and that didn't
happen, of course.
But as time has gone on, I havegrown to appreciate the role
that the United Nations plays,even if it can't fulfill its
(04:42):
mandate.
We're talking about a specificorgan like the Security Council,
but it is truly the one placein the world where all these
world leaders can get together.
Even if they're not talking toeach other, they still all
convene here.
You know UN, a high-level weekand I think that is really
important because otherwise Idon't know where else that would
(05:03):
happen.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
So I'd actually go along with Dawn's view there.
The UN is still really the onlyplace the big powers regularly
get together and talk, andgoodness knows right now we need
them to do that.
But, as you can hear, I'm backoutside UN headquarters trudging
the streets of Manhattan.
If you're ever here, bringcomfy shoes, but it's worth it,
because our next stop is reallyquite special.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Louis Charbonneau, UN Director at Human Rights Watch,
and we're in New York City inour headquarters in the Empire
State Building.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
It's a prime real estate.
Very lucky to be here, I think.
I'm quite interested, sinceI've been here a couple of days
now and it's kind of weird that,although I've been a UN
correspondent myself for 20years now, I've actually it's
the first time I've been intothe UN in New York.
Some of the things felt reallythe same, other things felt
(06:16):
really quite different.
I'm wondering in Geneva,because it's the humanitarian
headquarters of the UN, there isfrustration pretty much from
top to bottom at New York thatthe humanitarian agencies feel
that they are having to mop upblood literally because of the
(06:39):
failures in New York of thepolitical wing of the United
Nations of the United Nations.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
So, yes, new York as the United Nations headquarters
really is kind of the politicalcenter of the UN system.
And certainly, if you look atthe UN Security Council and you
consider what it does or doesn'tdo on issues like the horrific
hostilities in Gaza, on thesituation in Sudan, myanmar,
(07:13):
syria, so many conflicts andhumanitarian disasters that have
been going on for a very longtime, and there's an inability
of the member states to reach anagreement.
And it's really disagreementsamong the big powers, really the
(07:33):
five permanent Security Councilmembers, russia and China on
the one side and the US, unitedKingdom and France on the other
side.
They're these deep geopoliticaldivisions that we increasingly
see.
They're making it difficult forthe Security Council to do
anything.
(07:53):
And then, yes, in Geneva, yourhumanitarian people are left to
deal with this.
And you're right to talk aboutmopping up the blood and it's
almost a cliche to talk about alack of political will, and
there is that.
But it's also that there's apolitical determination on the
(08:13):
part of some people to preventany action to happen.
There is political will toblock the Security Council from
constraining Israel.
I mean, we at Human Rights Watchand other organizations have
called on governments to stopsupplying weapons, that they
(08:33):
call on Israel to comply withinternational humanitarian law,
but then they give them bombsthat weigh thousands of pounds
and are inherentlyindiscriminate in a densely
populated place like Gaza.
I don't see how they canreconcile those two things.
(08:54):
But double standards, no border.
We see Russia talking aboutprotecting civilians in Gaza,
china as well, and we all knowwhat Russia is doing in Ukraine,
where they're bombing hospitalsand schools and theaters and
the reports of torture indetention and summary execution
(09:19):
of prisoners.
But if there's one thing thatis really difficult to listen to
, is the way that governmentscompartmentalize and they will
condemn Russia for attackingcivilians in Ukraine, which they
should and we do.
(09:40):
That is a good thing.
We would never want to saydon't do that.
But then to turn around and togive the government of Israel a
free pass because it's theirfriend and ally.
It really undermines themessage when they're saying the
right things aboutaccountability and protection of
(10:03):
civilians in one context andthen turning around and saying,
well, but it's OK in Gaza.
It harms the message.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
But into that UN paralysis that we all complain
about so much in Geneva comes ahopeful UN special rapporteur
and back in UN headquartersshe's got a big day ahead.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
I'm Mariana Katsarova .
I'm the United Nations specialrapporteur on the human rights
situation in the RussianFederation and we're in New York
where I am delivering today mynew report.
It's a thematic report calledTorturing the Russian Federation
(10:51):
a tool for repression at homeand aggression abroad.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
You've also got an event here with former political
prisoners from Russia, formerUkrainians who have been held in
Russia.
It's been viewed as somewhatcontroversial to put Ukrainians
and Russians on the same panelfor a side event, and yet I
sense that what you're wantingto show New York, and
(11:20):
particularly people who may havea rather simplistic view, is
that in both these countriesthere are people absolutely
dedicated to promoting humanrights.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
I think it's very important to keep in mind the
title of my report and the linkbetween repression at home and
aggression abroad, and I thinkthis is manifested through the
tool of torture, the strategy oftorture that has been employed
by the Russian authoritiesagainst their own people,
(11:54):
against the political prisoners,the marginalized group like
LGBT persons or conscientiousobjectors to military service,
or the mobilized men who refuseto fight in Ukraine, indigenous
people, national minorities.
At the same time, the samesevere torture methods are used
(12:16):
against Ukrainian detainees inRussian prisons.
They catch them on the occupiedterritories, arbitrarily detain
them Ukrainian civilians,Ukrainian military and then
deported them to the RussianFederation, where many of these
people are kept without thecharge, again incommunicado,
(12:37):
being subjected to torture,anything from sexual violence
and rape to use of electricshocks.
All these torture methodsactually have colorful names.
This is how, in the Russian lawenforcement system, they're
known, both by victims andperpetrators.
So, for example, the electric,prolonged electric shocks to the
(12:58):
sensitive parts of the body,very often to the genitals,
using a field military telephonecalled topic is known in Russia
as a call to friend or a callto Putin.
This is the name of the torturemethod.
I mean there are many of thesecolorful names.
It's almost sinister, and Ihave presented them in the
(13:21):
report.
Putting the Ukrainians andRussians together is also
because, first of all, at myinvitation, here are more than
two dozen Russian human rightsdefenders from inside Russia and
outside who are continuingtheir human rights work.
But also I've invited arepresentative, the director of
(13:45):
the Nobel Peace Prize-winningNGO Center for Civil Liberties
from Kiev, who are continuingtogether the two civil societies
to help each other in findingthe Ukrainian detainees or
documenting abuses for futurecourt proceedings and
accountability abuses for futurecourt proceedings and
(14:09):
accountability.
The work that these humanrights organizations are doing,
they're doing it together in away, and this is the hope for
the future as well, Because inany war you have the level of
unacceptance and even hatredbetween people, but here we have
human rights defenders workingtogether in order to have this
(14:29):
future justice for the warcrimes, for the torture which is
performed by the Russianauthorities, both in the Russian
Federation and inside Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
This was the inspiration Mariana Katsarova
tried to instill in jadeddiplomats in New York, as you
can imagine from herdescriptions there, the
experiences of the human rightsdefenders she brought to the UN
from both Russia and Ukrainewere often hard to hear.
The side event heard from avery young woman living in Kyiv
(15:07):
who, visiting her father inCrimea who was ill with cancer,
was arrested and detained inRussia for months.
It also heard from one of themost famous Russian political
prisoners of all time, vladimirKaramurza, recently released in
a historic prisoner swap.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Just three months ago I was certain I was going to
die in that Siberian prison.
I never thought I was gettingout.
So this miracle, the prisonexchange on the 1st of August.
It was a miracle that's theonly way I can describe it but
it was in so many ways ahuman-made miracle that was made
possible by relentless,sustained advocacy by so many
people in the democratic world.
(15:49):
The situation with politicalprisoners in Russia today is no
longer a crisis.
It's a catastrophe.
We have more politicalprisoners in Russia alone now
than there were in the whole ofthe Soviet Union, so that's 15
countries put together.
Towards this later period inthe middle of the 1980s, in
Putin's Russia, people aregetting longer prison sentences
(16:12):
for peacefully expressing theiropinions than other people get
for rape or murder or drugtrafficking.
This is the reality of VladimirPutin's Russia today afterwards
I caught up with journalistdawn Clancy again.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
I found this event to be incredibly informative and I
did indeed learn loads of whatI didn't know before about
Russia torture.
When you're here in New York,you're focused on the Security
Council and everything's really,really political and you forget
the people.
But then when you have a sideevent, like we attended today,
(16:49):
and you get to hear stories ofpeople who were political
prisoners and held in jails andthen released, and you see the
pain on their faces and you hearit in their voices that they're
trying to make a difference, Imean that's really impactful.
And I think that goes back toyour question about UN and its
relevancy.
That is.
One of the gems of the UN isthat we can have events like
(17:12):
that and people can cometogether in that humanitarian
space and get regular people totalk about the impact of
decisions that are being made atthe UN or not being made at the
UN and Security Council and howit impacts them.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Do you think it's particularly important at this
juncture for Russians, humanrights defenders in Russia, to
come across the pond to theUnited States and show this
different picture A veryrepressive regime, not
necessarily one you can easilydo a deal with and the fact that
(17:51):
there are still people, verydifferent Russians, who are
defending their human rightsdespite the huge risks to
themselves?
Speaker 5 (17:59):
Absolutely, because in war, what's the first?
They say it's what's the firstcasualty of war.
Is the truth?
Okay, that's absolutely thecase here and it happens here at
the UN and you get a veryclosed picture of what's
happening.
I, before I attended that event,I would not have known about
these Russian lawyers andadvocates who are fighting for
(18:23):
people who are wrongfully inprison.
I absolutely think that needsto be part of the conversation,
and the reason it needs to be isbecause it's almost taboo to do
so in the first place, tomention, while there's a war
going on in Ukraine.
Well, you know, there's alsopeople on the Russian side who
are struggling.
The more we have thoseconversations, the more people
(18:45):
will get used to it and maybe wecan work with that taboo a
little bit.
But it is a bit frustrating,even as a journalist, because
you have to walk a line.
Well, if I bring this up about,why are you talking about
Russia?
You know they invaded Ukraine,you know.
But Russia is a country, it'speople.
That's where all the storiesare, that's where all the
(19:06):
shading is.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
But it's not just the lack of nuance in our
understanding of what'shappening in Russia.
That's a challenge for Russianhuman rights defenders hoping
for support here in New YorkOver the next 48 hours, there's
a packed programme at the UN.
The Commission of Inquiry onUkraine will deliver its report
to the General Assembly, whichwill also hear multiple reports
(19:33):
on the Middle East.
I've literally just bumped intoNavi Pile, former UN Human
Rights Commissioner and now thechair of the inquiry team for
Israel and the occupiedterritories.
All this is likely to suckattention away from people,
courageous though they are, whocome from a country many
(19:53):
diplomats here view themselvesat war with.
Let's talk to Human RightsWatch's Louis Charbonneau again.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
Russian human rights defenders need to be supported,
they need to be nurtured andthere needs to be attention to
the work they're doing.
It takes so much courage to bea human rights defender in
Russia and even outside Russia,because we have seen this
(20:23):
increasing phenomenon oftransnational repression, where
it is no longer enough to crossthe border from a country where
the government might try to putyou in prison or torture you or
even murder you right.
So Russia has already proventhat it is willing to go abroad
(20:50):
and hunt people down, so peoplewho are willing to go out
publicly and talk about thesituation that they're facing
inside Russia, where it hasreally become just increasingly
a full-blown authoritarian state.
It's really great that they hada chance to have a platform.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
And yet in the same 48 hours there was also the
Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine.
There's the Special Rapporteuron the Occupied Territories,
there's Navi Pile, who I raninto yesterday, commission of
Inquiry on the OccupiedTerritories.
So there's this big competitionfor attention in some of them
and I felt a little bit with theRussian one not really getting
(21:37):
the attention they mightactually need.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Yeah, one thing that I wish they didn't do it like
this, where they have all ofthese human rights bodies,
mechanisms showing up at thesame time.
They're only 24 hours in a dayand eight, nine hours in a
workday, and you can onlyschedule so many press
(22:03):
conferences and journalists anddiplomats can only go to so many
.
We shouldn't have them all atthe same time.
It would be great if they couldstagger them so that we could
have a week with the Russianhuman rights defenders and
Russian human rights experts, aweek to talk to the ones who are
focusing on what's happeninginside Ukraine, then a week to
(22:28):
focus on what's happening inIsrael, Palestine but
unfortunately I'm not the onewho's scheduling these things
and they cram it all into onevery short period and it's just
not fair.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Still into this competitive environment goes
Mariana Katsarova.
She's just about to head intothe General Assembly now to
present her report on torture inRussia.
But I've managed to catch upwith her.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I think it's more difficult to get the human
rights message here in New Yorkat the General Assembly, but I'm
having my interactive dialoguewith states today so hopefully
you know we will be heard.
I always say to member statesin Geneva please brief your
(23:22):
counterparts, engage them better, because it's the same member
states but with a differentlevel of understanding for human
rights here in New York, thedelegations and in Geneva, where
they're experts of course inGeneva because they deal with
the Human Rights Council issues.
So I think the connectionbetween New York and Geneva has
(23:45):
to be strengthened.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
What would you like the General Assembly to do?
I mean, what would be the bestoutcome once you've spoken to
them?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Well, I hope that, first of all, in any other
resolutions or decisions theGeneral Assembly will be taking
on connected to either the waragainst Ukraine or the Russian
Federation itself, that theytake into account my reports and
(24:14):
my recommendations itself.
That they take into account myreports and my recommendations,
they take into account thesituation with human rights and,
again, given that the expertsof the member states are at the
Human Rights Council in Geneva,I'm really hoping that it will
be able to, first of all, gettheir attention, but also
(24:35):
they'll be using it and theywill be pushing the agenda of
putting pressure on the Russianauthorities to comply with their
own obligations to the UN, tothe international standards, to
the UN conventions.
That's very important becausethere cannot be, you know, for
peace and security, human rightsis the core.
(24:57):
Without human rights, we cannothave peace or security.
And this is what New Yorkdiscusses in the General
Assembly.
It's protecting the peace andthe security.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
It's so nice to see you you too.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Peace and security.
How wonderful if the UN couldreally safeguard those things
for all of us, but right nowit's not doing too well,
unfortunately.
In this episode we've tried toexplore why that might be from
the power games and paralysis ofthe UN Security Council to an
over-simplistic black-and-whiteview of the UN Security Council,
(25:35):
to an oversimplistic black andwhite view of the world.
Just this morning, to MarianaKatsarova's dismay after all her
hard work, the New York Timescarried an article about Russian
torture in Ukraine, with nomention of the brutal repression
faced by human rights defenders, journalists and lawyers inside
(25:56):
Russia itself.
It's been interesting to seethe similarities and differences
between Geneva and New York thesame slightly bureaucratic
atmosphere, the same soulless UNcafes, the same rigorous
security, but over here moreglobal politics and less detail
(26:17):
and focus on human rights.
We hear a lot these days abouthow dysfunctional the UN is, how
bloated, how ineffective and,frankly, five days in New York
has reminded me of all thosethings, of all those things.
But then I see the hope on thefaces of those young Russians
(26:39):
who have suffered terrible abuseand have come all the way here
looking for support.
We need an effective UN toaddress that and so many other
global challenges.
The UN is made up of its memberstates.
They make the policy, theydecide.
They appoint people likeMariana Katsarova to scrutinise
human rights in Russia or NaviPile to investigate the
(27:03):
situation in Israel and theoccupied territories.
They do their work.
They bring in-depth reports tothe UN.
The least member states can do,I think, is listen, understand
and then hopefully act, andthat's it from this edition of
Inside Geneva.
My thanks to Louis Charbonneau,mariana Katsarova and Dawn
(27:25):
Clancy.
We hope you enjoyed our NewYork adventure.
Next time we'll be in Strasbourg, where the Council of Europe's
Commissioner for Human Rights ismarking 25 years.
It's a body that works closelywith UN human rights and, as
some listeners may know,switzerland currently holds the
(27:46):
position of Secretary General atthe Council.
We'll be there for a veryspecial debate, standing up for
human rights in challengingtimes.
Do join us then.
And for now, thanks forlistening to Inside Geneva.
A reminder you've beenlistening to Inside Geneva, a
(28:09):
Swiss Info production.
You can email us oninsidegeneva at swissinfoch and
subscribe to us and review uswherever you get your podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
(28:30):
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice
.
I'm Imogen Folks.
Thanks again for listening.
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