October 29, 2024 • 43 mins
On Inside Geneva this week we talk to the people behind a new book about life in Gaza, told through the words of those who live there.
“People are actually travelling in the middle of a war, in the middle of Gaza at midnight – the peak of the risk, if you like – to get somewhere where they can get a better internet so they can actually talk to us,” says Mahmoud Muna, editor of Daybreak in Gaza.
This book, edited by Mahmoud Muna and Matthew Teller with Juliette Touma and Jayyab Abusafia, is about history, culture, food, music and life.
“It’s not a football game. This is about our humanity and it’s about being able to sympathise with people wherever they are. This is not about taking sides. It’s about whether we’re human or not,” says Touma.
“This book does not give voice to the voiceless. The people of Gaza, like people everywhere, have voices. The point of this book is not to give a voice; the point of this book is to amplify the voices of the people who are not being listened to,” continues Teller.
In this episode, we also ask why human rights groups are uneasy about the upcoming UN Climate Change Conference (COP29) in Azerbaijan.
“Dozens have been arrested in the months leading up to COP29, including 16 journalists, other society activists, and NGO leaders. There is still time for Azerbaijan to set the record straight, and they should release them. The UN should engage with Azerbaijan to ensure that it does so,” says Giorgi Gogia from Human Rights Watch.
Tales from life in Gaza, climate change, and human rights. Catch this and more in the latest episode of our Inside Geneva podcast.
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Host: Imogen Foulkes
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
This is Inside Geneva .
I'm your host, imogen Fowkes,and this is a production from
Swissinfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
In today's programme, this book does not give voice
to the voiceless.
The people of Gaza have voices,and they've been yelling and
shouting and screaming andtrying to be heard for so long
and so few people have beenlistening to them.
The point of this book is notto give a voice.
(00:42):
The point of this book is toamplify the voices of the people
who are not being listened to.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva.
I'm Imogen Fowkes.
In today's programme we'regoing to hear about a new book
about life in Gaza, and laterwe're going to take a look at
why human rights groups haveconcerns that COP29, the annual
climate conference, is beingheld in Azerbaijan and what role
(01:14):
the UN should play.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Dozens have been arrested in the months leading
to COP29, including 16journalists and other society
activists, ngo leaders, andthere is time for Azerbaijan
still to set the record right,and they should be releasing
them, and UN should be engagingwith Azerbaijan to ensure that
(01:37):
it does so.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
First, though, what do we really know about Gaza?
We know the current brutalconflict, the destroyed towns.
Most of us know Gaza has beenblockaded by Israel for 18 years
and we know, of course, that onOctober 7th last year, some
people from Gaza carried out ahorrific attack on Israelis.
(02:00):
But what about everything else,the things that, over decades,
made Gazans love their home likewe love ours?
In the latest in our occasionalseries, Books to Make you Think
, we're going to talk aboutDaybreak in Gaza, a new book
that documents life in the GazaStrip in all its many facets Its
(02:22):
history, culture, food, musicand now the tragic loss of much
of that.
The book is a collection ofpersonal stories from Gaza
residents, collected and editedby Mahmoud Mouna, Matthew Teller
and Juliet Tuma.
Mahmoud, sometimes called thebookseller of Jerusalem, runs
(02:43):
two family bookshops there.
Matthew is a journalistspecialising in the Middle East,
and Juliet, some of ourlisteners may know, is Director
of Communications for the UNRelief Agency for Palestinians,
UNRWA.
I'm delighted to say they'reall joining us Mahmoud from
Jerusalem, Matthew from Londonand Juliet from Beirut.
(03:06):
But just before we hear fromthem, here is an excerpt from
the book Daybreak in Gaza.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
If only I had known to plan for a genocide, I would
have cherished those lastmoments at home my last night in
a bed, my last morning coffee,my last kibbeh dipped in hummus,
my last day at work, my lastlaugh, my last birthday
celebration, my last everything.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
That's from the new book Daybreak in Gaza, and over
the course of our discussionwe'll be hearing more excerpts
and our guests will behighlighting their own favourite
chapters.
But first let's hear fromMahmoud.
Welcome to Inside Geneva.
You're the book's editor.
You're also Palestinian.
Tell us how you got involved inthis particular project.
Speaker 6 (03:56):
Yeah, that takes me back to December, when I was
sitting in my office wonderingwhat could we do, how could we
help, how could we present Gazadifferently than just building
being destroyed?
And, of course, life is beinglost, and I was thinking about
the Palestinian experience allthe way from Nakba of 1948.
(04:17):
And I was thinking about thelack of information, the lack of
reporting on how, in thesetimes of wars, the society gets
undone.
The fabric of the society andthe daily operation of different
types of people get reallystopped and interrupted and
shattered and get undone really.
And as I was watching thereporting coming from Gaza, I
(04:39):
noticed a similar pattern and Iimagined to myself what about if
my bookstore was in Gaza and Iam trying to invite my authors
and sell my books in Gaza?
How would that be affected?
That got me thinking about allthese normal people in the
streets of Gaza and ininstitutions, in culture, in art
, but also in hospital and inuniversities and in trade and
(05:02):
business and so on, that theirdaily routine, their daily life
has stopped, and I think thisreally is the terrible outcome
of the war, in addition, ofcourse, to destruction and
losing lives.
And that was my little attemptto document that part of the
story, if you like, but it'salso there's another selfish and
I must confess here there's avery selfish reason.
(05:23):
As we're watching and not ableto do anything, I was worried
about my young daughters in 20years asking me back in time
when this was happening, whenpeople were killed, what did you
do about it?
And in a selfish way, I wantedto do something so I can answer
that question.
Speaker 7 (05:43):
I had a marvelous childhood.
Early in the morning we wouldwait for the fishermen to come
in in their boats, then go downto the shore, buy fish and cook
and eat it fresh.
At weekends we would haveKhedra rice and meat in a clay
pot, followed by slices ofwatermelon, and we had parties
(06:04):
dancing to American rock androll.
I was so spoiled.
Gaza was a beautiful place.
Our house was destroyed in therecent airstrikes, completely
demolished.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I think that that reflects what I felt about it
too that we see so much on thenews but very little about the
life of ordinary individuals andthe things they do, and that
they enjoyed doing, juliet.
One of the things that reallystruck me reading this book is
(06:39):
an almost united not explicit,but united plea Don't forget
what we were or are.
We don't want to be just astatistic.
Speaker 8 (06:51):
This is the people of Gaza.
You summed it up the people ofGaza who love life and love to
live and have a most wonderfulsense of humour.
That's the people of Gaza, andeven during the worst of the
worst, they are so determined tolive.
When I used to go to Gazabefore the war, it was a breath
(07:12):
of fresh air, regardless of therestrictions that we had to go
through on the Israelicheckpoint.
But the minute you're done withall of that and you come in and
you start smelling theMediterranean and you see the
hustle and bustle and people ondonkey carts selling goods,
(07:33):
whether it's fish, whether it'sstrawberries, whether it's
citrus, and you see peoplehaving coffee and refreshments
by the sea.
And this is I'm not talkingabout Gaza.
In the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, Iwas in Gaza just 10 days before
the war started, right, and ofcourse, I went to Gaza during
the war, but I was based inJerusalem for one year and for
(07:56):
me, it was a great break.
Every time I went to Gaza,believe it or not and this is, I
think, one of the reasons whywe wanted to do this book is a
tribute to that love of life.
People in wars become moredetermined, determined to live,
and they remind all of us of howprivileged and how lucky we are
(08:19):
.
Speaker 9 (08:20):
My daily routine was amazing.
I worked as a project officerat one of the local institutions
here.
I started my day walking besidethe sea on the Cornish.
After work, I would go to thegym, then spend the evening with
my children and friends.
We had the sea, we had a greatbeach.
We had places to go.
I miss this life.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Matthew, let's come to you, because, as we said
earlier, matthew, let's come toyou because, as we said earlier,
the news people outside Gazaand you're in London, I believe
now the news we get is horrorand misery.
Many people I know say thatthey just can't watch anymore.
(08:59):
How important is it?
Do you think that people cansee this other picture that's in
the book?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I think it's vitally important.
I think you're absolutely right.
Just to add to what Juliettewas saying, a very strong
message that came through frommany of the conversations that
we had for this book and alsoafterwards, is that the people
of Gaza, almost universally fromthe people that we spoke to
said we don't want to be seen asmonsters.
We're not all terrorists, we'renot all violent and whatever
(09:32):
the stereotype that is so oftenportrayed.
And equally, we're also not allsuperheroes.
We're not like super resilient,able to withstand anything and
stand up to the onslaughts.
We're human.
We're just ordinary humanbeings.
It's a simplistic message, butit's one that, in these
situations, resonatesparticularly strongly, I think.
(09:53):
I think it's vitally importantfor us, looking in from the
outside, to be able to see pastthe geopolitics and to be able
to see past the diplomacy andthe impacts of policy and to see
the real people and to see whatthose policies and that
diplomacy and those geopoliticalmaneuverings are doing to
(10:14):
individuals and to families andto children and to the
vulnerable.
And you know, if this book insome small way helps people to
be able to do that, to placethemselves in a similar position
to the appalling, unspeakableatrocities that are being
visited on the people of Gaza.
Then I was about to say I'mdelighted.
(10:35):
I'm not delighted, I'm.
I feel a sense of fulfillmentif the book is able to achieve
that aim.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
But it certainly resonated with me.
You know you have the mother oftwo children remembering fondly
how she used to go to the gym,or the young lad trying to get
his sister's favourite pet catacross into Gaza for his
sister's wedding.
(11:00):
I mean, these are things thatwill speak to, I think, many
people, to our common humanity.
But I did wonder you collectedthese stories, I think in three
months, at the beginning of thisyear, in the midst of a really
brutal conflict, with verylittle access for journalists,
for example internationaljournalists to Gaza.
How challenging was it and howwilling were the people you
(11:24):
contacted to say yeah, I'm goingto write about this now.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
People were extraordinarily forthcoming.
I mean, it surprised, I think,all of us how much people wanted
the chance to speak.
It's a very important point.
I think, and I try to make thisas often as possible this book
does not give voice to thevoiceless.
The people of Gaza, and as thesame as people everywhere, have
(11:52):
voices, and they've been yellingand shouting and screaming and
trying to be heard for so long,for so long, and so few people
have been listening to them.
The point of this book is notto give a voice.
The point of this book is toamplify the voices of the people
who are not being listened to.
And once we were able to makecontact, it was also, in some
(12:15):
cases, very difficult to makecontact.
Mahmoud, I'm sure, can talkabout this as well, but once we
did make contact, it was as ifthe floodgates opened.
People really wanted to beheard.
They had stories to tell.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Mahmoud.
Is there an element which thisis a hard question, but is there
an element for some of thepeople who contribute that I
need to put something down onpaper because tomorrow might be
too late?
Speaker 6 (12:39):
I think certainly we felt that need to deliver the
story, if you like, beforesomething terrible happens.
We had many of our contributors.
Actually, the process ofcommunication wasn't, of course,
easy.
We were using all types oftechnologies and internet and
phone and even recorded messagesto get the stories out.
(13:01):
I remember vividly a couple ofnights when people were having
bad connection and they said,look, let's talk at midnight, I
will travel somewhere wherethere's internet and then we can
continue the conversation.
And suddenly occurred to me thatpeople are actually traveling
in the middle of a war, in themiddle of Gaza at midnight the
(13:24):
peak of the risk, if you like toget somewhere where they can
get a better internet so theycan actually talk to us.
And there you feel the urgencyor the importance for people to
actually kind of register theirvoice, if you like, or send
their message or send a story.
That was, I don't want to sayshocking, but that was humbling
(13:44):
really to feel that theprivilege that we have, having
all the communication and allthe space that we have, yet
people are taking out on theirown personal risk to reach out
to us and tell us their storyand connect us with someone else
who might also add to the story, and that's how one interview
was leading into anotherinterview as well.
Speaker 10 (14:05):
February 9th 2024.
It's a sunny day and if therewere no war, I would have spent
it swimming in the sea.
As I drive down to Rafah on thecoast road, I see people and
fishermen gathering by the shore, while the clear water invites
those who have no water at hometo take a dip and wash.
I see dozens wading into thewater with their shower gel and
(14:27):
their joy.
Suddenly, I hear engines rising.
I see two gunboats racingtowards the beach.
As they approach the fishingboats, they open fire.
Everyone is terrified and triesto get away.
Our innocent act of resilience,fishing and keeping clean,
represented no threat.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
You might find this a slightly odd quest.
It's a very western question.
The Gaza-Israel question in thewest, in Europe, is incredibly
polarised.
Everybody has a view and peoplefrom Europe, the United States,
coming to this book, mightexpect that also in this book,
(15:13):
and yet it's not there.
There is not, for example, amassive pro-Hamas, certainly not
.
There is not a you know some ofthe more extreme statements
about Israel.
It is not there at all.
Juliet, do you have anythoughts about that?
Speaker 8 (15:36):
It's very, very good that you say that, because,
again, this is the Gaza people.
I love people who do not hateanyone, and I think this is our
small contribution to the world,including international media,
but also others who have decidedvery early on to box the people
(15:59):
of Gaza, as they're all onething and they're all Hamas,
which is far from the truth.
Which is far from the truth.
There is a lot that the worldis missing out on what's
actually happening in Gaza,beyond the atrocities and beyond
what the very heroicPalestinian journalists are
(16:20):
giving to all of us and, ofcourse, the UN and the Red Cross
and all the other organizations.
But that's not enough.
There has to be free access forinternational journalists to
spend time in Gaza, to do thatsafely, and that is something
that the parties to the conflicthave got to do.
I don't know why it's not beendone, but it's certainly helping
(16:47):
to deepen the polarisation thatyou have to be either pro or
anti.
It's not a football game.
This is about our humanity andit's about being able to
sympathise with people whereverthey are.
This is not about taking sides.
(17:07):
It's about whether we're humanor not.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
In this war.
Who am I?
To the world, it seems, I'mjust a number, a person who is
counted on a list of peopledisplaced, people injured, or
people hungry or thirsty, and ifthe next bomb is for me, I will
be forgotten.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
You call the book Daybreak in Gaza, which to me
has this real ring of optimismto it.
And it's so hard for us outsidewe see what we see, the limited
stuff we see, but it's horrificto see any form of optimism,
particularly as this conflict isspreading.
(17:48):
But I think you call it thatbecause of the spirit and the
humanity to see any form ofoptimism, particularly as this
conflict is spreading.
But I think you call it thatbecause of the spirit and the
humanity in the book.
Do you have particular excerpts, just short ones, that you
could share with us that wouldexplain to our listeners why
you've called it Daybreak inGaza and why you have that note
of optimism?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
I'm very happy to chip in.
Yes, what I'm going to offer,if I can, is not a reading.
This is a short audio clip it'sabout a minute or so which we
received from a woman calledAmani Sheltut.
Amani looks after is thedirector of the United Nations
of the UNRWA photo archive inGaza City, and I sent some
questions by text and then shechose to reply by voice.
(18:39):
I find this clip extraordinarilymoving for a lot of reasons.
One is that you can hear thedrones overhead as she's
speaking, which is that noise,that buzzing noise, is an
ever-present in Gaza.
People cannot ever eliminatethe sound of drones.
And, in addition to that, whileshe is answering my trivial
(19:02):
questions about what herfavourite image was in the
archive that she is taking careof, you can also hear the bombs
falling behind her as well.
And yet she has this desire,willingness, presence of mind to
continue with what she's saying, to deliver a message to the
world through me, and thatresponsibility, that burden, if
you like, is one that I takevery, very seriously.
(19:24):
I'll play you this clip now hiand salam from gaza.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
First of all, I wish you all the best in your book
About my favourite images.
My favourite images are thoseabout education, particularly
those show children learning inopen air or in the tents, where
some pupils were sitting on thesands and they don't even have
(19:49):
seats.
Actually, for me, these imagesshow the desire and a need to
change for better and a kind ofa challenge to all of these
tough circumstances, and thatmustn't be the fate forever and,
as we used to say that,education is the passport for
(20:13):
our future and also and youcould be make us a proud of the
our identity.
Many, many thanks for you andfor all those who stand in
solidarity with Gaza.
It's really, really appreciatedand actually what you are doing
is a turning point in history.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
It sets me off every time that clip, but I feel like
it's important to share, whetherI can.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Thank you very much, Matthew, for that.
I think that illustrates verywell why you chose this title.
People keep their faith indesire for education, the desire
to further their lives, despite, as you said, the drones and
the bombs in the background.
What about you, Juliet?
(21:01):
Do you have a particularexcerpt that inspired you
particularly?
Speaker 8 (21:06):
I loved many, many, many, many, many stories.
Many stories made me laugh orsmile.
The falafel story I loved, andI think there's a number of of
people that have already readthe book and and are liking the
book.
But I think story number onecontinues to be Lulu the cat,
(21:28):
and that story just wasincredible.
It was just so, so beautiful.
And again it shows courage anddetermination and lightness in
how people go about their lives.
And it also shows something thatI think important is that none
of this has begun on the 7th ofOctober and that people have
(21:52):
been living through blockade andcheckpoints and restrictions
for many, many decades thePalestinian people, I mean.
And you know, to have somethingas simple as transferring a pet
from one city to anotherbecomes such an ordeal.
I really loved how that storywas put together.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I have to say I've been reading the book all day.
I haven't quite finished it yet, but so far Lulu the Cat, is
also up there among myfavourites.
Mahmoud, I'm going to come.
Finally, your nickname, I think, is the bookseller of Jerusalem
.
I'm sure this book is on yourbookstore shelves.
Do you have a favorite excerptthat illustrates for us the idea
(22:35):
of daybreak in gaza?
Speaker 6 (22:37):
I, I do, and actually among the most interesting
pieces for me throughout theworking the book is, uh, people
who work in the cultural and artscene, because these are close
people to my heart and Iconsider them colleagues.
So I'm going to read a shortstory of an entry that Hossam
al-Madhoun wrote, and Hossam isa child protection officer in a
humanitarian organization inGaza, but he also has a
(23:00):
theatrical background and healso works in theater, and this
is a very short story that Iwill read See yourself for a
shekel.
A boy in the market is holdinga tiny piece of mirror
encouraging people to look attheir faces.
For one shekel this is about 25American US cents he's making a
living by offering a very rareservice.
(23:21):
I have not seen my face since Iarrived in Rafah many weeks ago
.
You cannot buy mirrors anymoreand anyway, a mirror is
something you forget about.
In this situation, how you lookdoesn't really matter.
I asked him do you make moneythis way?
He tells me he does.
Lots of people want to seethemselves.
He says I make 30 shekels a dayor more.
(23:44):
But you see him.
The boy points to a man down thestreet, walking away from us.
He looked at his face but gavethe mirror back to me without
paying.
I'm not stopping him, though.
He had a cut from his face allthe way down to his chest, a
long, horrible cut, not healedwell at all, I think it was from
shrapnel.
He looked at his big ugly scarand when he gave me back the
(24:06):
mirror I saw saw he was cryingso I let him go.
I took the boy's mirror andlooked at my face.
It's got very skinny.
I have no mirror for shaving,so the stubble on my chin is all
uneven Bits, longer than otherbits.
I am a mess.
I did not cry.
I gave the child two shekelsand continued walking.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
A situation most of us can hardly imagine, and that,
again, is why we should readthis book.
Speaker 6 (24:37):
Mirror is a very, very interesting metaphor to use
because I think, as peoplereading the book, they also need
to hold the pages as a mirrorto themselves see how are they
after this war, what have theyfelt and what are they able to
do to stop these horrible thingsfrom continuing to happen.
So I like that piece becauseit's very visual, it has the
(24:58):
child's humour to it, but italso represents us all with a
mirror in front of our face tosee ourselves as well.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
The optimism, humanity that life shines
through in this book and I wouldurge you all, even though you
can't bear to watch the newsanymore, that Daybreak in Gaza
will open your eyes and isreally a very rewarding,
optimistic, in many ways read.
It will make you laugh.
(25:26):
It may also make you cry.
Juliet Tumor, mahmoud Muna andMatthew Teller, thank you all
very much for taking part andgood luck to all of you with the
book.
Mahmoud Muna, juliet, julietTuma and Matthew Teller joining
(25:49):
us there from Jerusalem, beirutand London to tell us about the
new book Daybreak in Gaza.
Now, before our next interview,some exciting news.
Our next episode of InsideGeneva will be coming to you
from New York, taking a look atwhat the UN over there does
sometimes a big question forthose of us based in Geneva and
(26:11):
hearing about the continuedbravery of Russian human rights
defenders, some of whom are inNew York to remind UN member
states of the incredible andrisky work they do.
Join us for that on November12th.
Join us for that on November12th, but now in just a couple
(26:40):
of weeks the UN ClimateConference COP29, will be held
in Baku, in Azerbaijan.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
COP29 is definitely the most important event of this
year.
As a host country, we have aunique opportunity to be the
center of the discussions to be.
Speaker 9 (26:51):
The Azerbaijan, a major fossil fuel producer and
exporter, is the host of thisyear's UN Climate Conference,
cop29.
And it has an appalling humanrights record.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
It's not the first time the UN has held the
conference in a major oil andgas producer.
Last year it was held in theUnited Arab Emirates, the year
before in Egypt.
And these are also, humanrights groups say, countries
with very questionable humanrights records.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
My name is Giorgi Gogia.
I'm Associate Director of theEuropean Central Asia Division
at Human Rights Watch.
I have been doing it for wellover two decades now, and I have
been working on Armenia,Azerbaijan and Georgia.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
And today we're talking about Azerbaijan.
Human Rights Watch haveexpressed concerns about the
UN's annual climate changemeeting COP29, as it's called
being held in Azerbaijan.
What are your key problems withthat event and where it's being
(27:56):
held?
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Well, it is no doubt that we need, in order to combat
climate change, we needambitious, robust climate action
, and this ambitious, robustclimate action is possible only
with strong civil society,independent civil society
participation.
(28:18):
And this is the third time in arow that COP takes place in the
place where fundamentalfreedoms are severely curtailed.
In Azerbaijan, we just releaseda major report, a document,
just in the months leading up toCOP29.
(28:38):
Azerbaijan arrested dozens ofcivic and political activists,
journalists, independentresearchers on various bogus
criminal charges and arbitrarilyimplements very repressive laws
.
That pushes independent civilsociety to the margins of the
(28:59):
law and allows and heightens therisks for retaliatory
prosecutions, which we havedocumented in the past few
months.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
The thing is, I guess it's a bit difficult for the
United Nations, but would yousay the UN should not hold
events in a country withquestionable human rights
records, ie Egypt, for example,as it did with COP a couple of
years ago, or Azerbaijan?
(29:30):
No?
Speaker 4 (29:30):
I would not go as far as not to hold the events, but
use those events to make surethat host countries respect
fundamental human rights,whether it's in choosing the
site or with ensuring that thehost country agreements has very
specific human rightsguarantees that allows for
(29:51):
independent civil society, localor international, to freely,
independently participate inthis important event.
It's not about where it is held,but it's about how it is held,
and it is possible becauseAzerbaijan has this very.
You know, it strives to be aninternational player with global
(30:13):
standing, to be aninternational player with global
standing, it strives to attractinternational attention and it
wants to host such events, andthere's nothing wrong with that.
The important thing is that youknow, if you want to play in
that league, you have to observethe fundamental rights, you
have to observe the rules of thegame and unfortunately,
azerbaijan yet again is failing.
(30:35):
And I'm saying yet again isfailing.
And I'm saying yet againbecause this is not the first
time Azerbaijan is hosting thesemega events.
You know it started fromEurovision Song Contest in 2012.
It moved to European Games,which Azerbaijan invented in
2016, and, you know, invitedevery single delegation and
every single member and paid forthem.
Then you know Formula One, andnow we've seen the unprecedented
(30:57):
global event which it wants touse to whitewash its
international human rights image.
But it should not be allowed todo this.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
And you've got particular concerns about which
the UN does traditionally havewhen it's having a big event in
a member state a host countryagreement.
The UN's not published thisagreement, but you've seen it.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
First of all, you're right, it has not been published
before, unless somebodyobtained it and published it.
It should not fall on civilsociety to publish those host
country agreements.
They should be public and theUN should be making them public
the past ones and the currentones and future ones because
it's a really critical documentthat allows that kind of spells
(31:42):
out the rules of the game.
And the current host countryagreement, for example, for
instance, says that the wildconference participants shall
enjoy immunity for legal processin respect for words spoken or
written and any act performed bythem.
But the separate clause of thesame agreement requires that
(32:03):
they respect Azerbaijani lawsand not interfere in the
internal affairs of Azerbaijan.
There's no clarity in theagreement about what actions
could constitute interferencewith Azerbaijan's internal
affairs and whether Azerbaijan'slaws apply in the UN-run
conference zone.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
I see what you mean.
I mean that does look like abig loophole in the host country
agreement.
What have you observed in theprevious two, if anything, the
COP28, cop27, because we had theUnited Arab Emirates last year
and then Egypt the year before?
These are countries which HumanRights Watch also has big
(32:43):
concerns about.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
I wouldn't like to compare the countries.
First of all, I'm not maybe bestqualified to talk about the
human rights issues in UAE or inEgypt, but there were similar
concerns in terms of freedom ofexpression, assembly association
in those.
But there were similar concernsin terms of freedom of
expression, assembly associationin those countries.
There were kind of politicallymotivating imprisonment as well.
But again, it's one event wherekind of you need to ensure that
(33:10):
local and international humanrights groups, civil society,
climate groups should be able tofreely exercise the fundamental
rights and unfortunately, thisis not something that is
guaranteed in Azerbaijan.
It's flouted routinely, atleast for local groups.
In last year, for example, in2023, there were two protests in
(33:33):
Azerbaijan on smallerclimate-related issues like
environment let's say not evencall them climate,
environment-related issues whenresidents of a local village
protested the water shortage anddam building because of the
mining in their village andAzerbaijan not only
heavy-handedly responded to themand the rest of the dozens, but
(33:56):
for weeks they've isolated thevillage.
They kind of deployed heavysecurity, they did not let any
journalists in or out of thevillage and they basically
crushed dissent in this kind ofvery heavy-handed response
(34:17):
heavy-handed response.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
I sense that your biggest concern is maybe not so
much for internationalnon-governmental organizations
who may go to COP29.
That may all look well and good, but that for local groups who
really want to be involved andbring their own specialist, very
important local knowledge thatthey could be at risk.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
That's a very good observation, imogen, but I would
not again.
It's not only the local groups.
For example, you know justrecently, azerbaijan is very
retaliatory when it comes tocritical criticism.
It recently, weeks ago,sanctioned and imposed bans on
(35:02):
over 70 MPs from the Council ofEurope Parliamentary Assembly
who voted for the criticalresolution against Azerbaijan.
And the response from thegovernment against 76 European
members of parliament was, youknow, the ban for their access
and unless they restore thevoting rights of Azerbaijan in
(35:22):
the Council of the ParliamentaryAssembly.
That's how it responds tointernational criticism, that's
how it reacts to it.
And just if it can do this tointernational MPs, to
international bodies that itaspires to be part of, just
imagine what it can do to itslocal human rights groups that
(35:45):
it has been decimating fordecades now and they're on the
path of extinction just becauseof continuous arrests as well as
arbitrary implementation ofthese extremely repressive laws
that make legitimate humanrights work nearly impossible.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
And for human rights activists, NGOs, who are packing
their bags to go to Azerbaijanto COP29, do you have any
practical advice for them?
Speaker 4 (36:18):
I think that you know I don't know whether I should
go publicly about it, but thereshould be a word that you know
this is a country that has useddigital surveillance in the past
.
Azerbaijan is one of thecountries that has used spyware
to monitor phones and laptops ofindependent journalists, local
independent groups leaders.
(36:39):
So I think they shouldanticipate some surveillance.
You know, they should try tolook out and see if there's, you
know, the local groups thatneed help, that need visibility.
I think it would be reallyimportant to engage with them
and to make sure that thesepeople are not forgotten, that
these people are heard and theirvoices are heard and their
stories are told.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
What could the UN do more, then, to protect NGOs,
human rights groups, at COP29?
Speaker 4 (37:06):
Well, there are a number of things that UN should
be doing.
First of all, they need to,besides what we've discussed
about the publishing the hostcountry agreement and ensuring
that you know, the host countryagreements include concrete
human rights provisions, theguarantees for local
international civil societymedia to participate freely in
(37:29):
the COP event.
They should also engage withthe Azerbaijani government to
ensure that diverse andinclusive civil society
participate at COP 29 Kalamittalks.
The premises should beinclusive, accessible to all and
observers, includinginternational civil society
activists, academia, journalists, groups, individuals.
(37:53):
They should be able, those whoare critical of the government
should have access to thenegotiations and be able to
protest and express theirposition.
Really, dozens have beenarrested in the months leading
to COP29, including 16journalists and other civil
society activists, ngo leaders,and there is time for Azerbaijan
(38:16):
still to set the record rightand they should be releasing
them, and UN should be engagingwith Azerbaijan to ensure that
it does so, because it's stilltime for this COP to go right
and for it to go right.
All these people who areunjustly in prison, including
several outstanding activistslike Anar Mahmadli, who is a
(38:37):
longtime veteran human rightdefender in the country.
In the past, he has beenarrested and European court has
found his arrest politicallymotivated, and currently he was
arrested weeks after he foundedClimate of Justice initiative
that was intended to reuse thismedia limelight on Azerbaijan
during COP 29 to call forabusive human rights record.
(39:02):
He himself has been arrested.
He should be released.
Now is the time for UNFCCC, itsmember states, for
international partners ofAzerbaijan, to insist for their
release, because there is stilltime.
This COP29 can still go right.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
And that brings us to the end of this edition of
Inside Geneva.
My thanks to Gheorghe Gogia ofHuman Rights Watch, and to
Mahmoud Mouna, juliet Tuma andMatthew Teller.
I'm Imogen Folks.
Join us next time on InsideGeneva when we'll be bringing
you a special episode from theUnited Nations in New York.
A reminder you've beenlistening to Inside Geneva, a
(39:53):
Swiss Info production.
You can email us oninsidegeneva at swissinfoch and
subscribe to us and review uswherever you get your podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
(40:14):
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice
.
I'm Imogen Folks.
Thanks again for listening.
This is Inside Geneva .
I'm your host, imogen Fowkes,and this is a production from
Swissinfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
In today's programme, this book does not give voice
to the voiceless.
The people of Gaza have voices,and they've been yelling and
shouting and screaming andtrying to be heard for so long
and so few people have beenlistening to them.
The point of this book is notto give a voice.
(00:42):
The point of this book is toamplify the voices of the people
who are not being listened to.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva.
I'm Imogen Fowkes.
In today's programme we'regoing to hear about a new book
about life in Gaza, and laterwe're going to take a look at
why human rights groups haveconcerns that COP29, the annual
climate conference, is beingheld in Azerbaijan and what role
(01:14):
the UN should play.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Dozens have been arrested in the months leading
to COP29, including 16journalists and other society
activists, ngo leaders, andthere is time for Azerbaijan
still to set the record right,and they should be releasing
them, and UN should be engagingwith Azerbaijan to ensure that
(01:37):
it does so.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
First, though, what do we really know about Gaza?
We know the current brutalconflict, the destroyed towns.
Most of us know Gaza has beenblockaded by Israel for 18 years
and we know, of course, that onOctober 7th last year, some
people from Gaza carried out ahorrific attack on Israelis.
(02:00):
But what about everything else,the things that, over decades,
made Gazans love their home likewe love ours?
In the latest in our occasionalseries, Books to Make you Think
, we're going to talk aboutDaybreak in Gaza, a new book
that documents life in the GazaStrip in all its many facets Its
(02:22):
history, culture, food, musicand now the tragic loss of much
of that.
The book is a collection ofpersonal stories from Gaza
residents, collected and editedby Mahmoud Mouna, Matthew Teller
and Juliet Tuma.
Mahmoud, sometimes called thebookseller of Jerusalem, runs
(02:43):
two family bookshops there.
Matthew is a journalistspecialising in the Middle East,
and Juliet, some of ourlisteners may know, is Director
of Communications for the UNRelief Agency for Palestinians,
UNRWA.
I'm delighted to say they'reall joining us Mahmoud from
Jerusalem, Matthew from Londonand Juliet from Beirut.
(03:06):
But just before we hear fromthem, here is an excerpt from
the book Daybreak in Gaza.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
If only I had known to plan for a genocide, I would
have cherished those lastmoments at home my last night in
a bed, my last morning coffee,my last kibbeh dipped in hummus,
my last day at work, my lastlaugh, my last birthday
celebration, my last everything.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
That's from the new book Daybreak in Gaza, and over
the course of our discussionwe'll be hearing more excerpts
and our guests will behighlighting their own favourite
chapters.
But first let's hear fromMahmoud.
Welcome to Inside Geneva.
You're the book's editor.
You're also Palestinian.
Tell us how you got involved inthis particular project.
Speaker 6 (03:56):
Yeah, that takes me back to December, when I was
sitting in my office wonderingwhat could we do, how could we
help, how could we present Gazadifferently than just building
being destroyed?
And, of course, life is beinglost, and I was thinking about
the Palestinian experience allthe way from Nakba of 1948.
(04:17):
And I was thinking about thelack of information, the lack of
reporting on how, in thesetimes of wars, the society gets
undone.
The fabric of the society andthe daily operation of different
types of people get reallystopped and interrupted and
shattered and get undone really.
And as I was watching thereporting coming from Gaza, I
(04:39):
noticed a similar pattern and Iimagined to myself what about if
my bookstore was in Gaza and Iam trying to invite my authors
and sell my books in Gaza?
How would that be affected?
That got me thinking about allthese normal people in the
streets of Gaza and ininstitutions, in culture, in art
, but also in hospital and inuniversities and in trade and
(05:02):
business and so on, that theirdaily routine, their daily life
has stopped, and I think thisreally is the terrible outcome
of the war, in addition, ofcourse, to destruction and
losing lives.
And that was my little attemptto document that part of the
story, if you like, but it'salso there's another selfish and
I must confess here there's avery selfish reason.
(05:23):
As we're watching and not ableto do anything, I was worried
about my young daughters in 20years asking me back in time
when this was happening, whenpeople were killed, what did you
do about it?
And in a selfish way, I wantedto do something so I can answer
that question.
Speaker 7 (05:43):
I had a marvelous childhood.
Early in the morning we wouldwait for the fishermen to come
in in their boats, then go downto the shore, buy fish and cook
and eat it fresh.
At weekends we would haveKhedra rice and meat in a clay
pot, followed by slices ofwatermelon, and we had parties
(06:04):
dancing to American rock androll.
I was so spoiled.
Gaza was a beautiful place.
Our house was destroyed in therecent airstrikes, completely
demolished.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I think that that reflects what I felt about it
too that we see so much on thenews but very little about the
life of ordinary individuals andthe things they do, and that
they enjoyed doing, juliet.
One of the things that reallystruck me reading this book is
(06:39):
an almost united not explicit,but united plea Don't forget
what we were or are.
We don't want to be just astatistic.
Speaker 8 (06:51):
This is the people of Gaza.
You summed it up the people ofGaza who love life and love to
live and have a most wonderfulsense of humour.
That's the people of Gaza, andeven during the worst of the
worst, they are so determined tolive.
When I used to go to Gazabefore the war, it was a breath
(07:12):
of fresh air, regardless of therestrictions that we had to go
through on the Israelicheckpoint.
But the minute you're done withall of that and you come in and
you start smelling theMediterranean and you see the
hustle and bustle and people ondonkey carts selling goods,
(07:33):
whether it's fish, whether it'sstrawberries, whether it's
citrus, and you see peoplehaving coffee and refreshments
by the sea.
And this is I'm not talkingabout Gaza.
In the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, Iwas in Gaza just 10 days before
the war started, right, and ofcourse, I went to Gaza during
the war, but I was based inJerusalem for one year and for
(07:56):
me, it was a great break.
Every time I went to Gaza,believe it or not and this is, I
think, one of the reasons whywe wanted to do this book is a
tribute to that love of life.
People in wars become moredetermined, determined to live,
and they remind all of us of howprivileged and how lucky we are
(08:19):
.
Speaker 9 (08:20):
My daily routine was amazing.
I worked as a project officerat one of the local institutions
here.
I started my day walking besidethe sea on the Cornish.
After work, I would go to thegym, then spend the evening with
my children and friends.
We had the sea, we had a greatbeach.
We had places to go.
I miss this life.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Matthew, let's come to you, because, as we said
earlier, matthew, let's come toyou because, as we said earlier,
the news people outside Gazaand you're in London, I believe
now the news we get is horrorand misery.
Many people I know say thatthey just can't watch anymore.
(08:59):
How important is it?
Do you think that people cansee this other picture that's in
the book?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I think it's vitally important.
I think you're absolutely right.
Just to add to what Juliettewas saying, a very strong
message that came through frommany of the conversations that
we had for this book and alsoafterwards, is that the people
of Gaza, almost universally fromthe people that we spoke to
said we don't want to be seen asmonsters.
We're not all terrorists, we'renot all violent and whatever
(09:32):
the stereotype that is so oftenportrayed.
And equally, we're also not allsuperheroes.
We're not like super resilient,able to withstand anything and
stand up to the onslaughts.
We're human.
We're just ordinary humanbeings.
It's a simplistic message, butit's one that, in these
situations, resonatesparticularly strongly, I think.
(09:53):
I think it's vitally importantfor us, looking in from the
outside, to be able to see pastthe geopolitics and to be able
to see past the diplomacy andthe impacts of policy and to see
the real people and to see whatthose policies and that
diplomacy and those geopoliticalmaneuverings are doing to
(10:14):
individuals and to families andto children and to the
vulnerable.
And you know, if this book insome small way helps people to
be able to do that, to placethemselves in a similar position
to the appalling, unspeakableatrocities that are being
visited on the people of Gaza.
Then I was about to say I'mdelighted.
(10:35):
I'm not delighted, I'm.
I feel a sense of fulfillmentif the book is able to achieve
that aim.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
But it certainly resonated with me.
You know you have the mother oftwo children remembering fondly
how she used to go to the gym,or the young lad trying to get
his sister's favourite pet catacross into Gaza for his
sister's wedding.
(11:00):
I mean, these are things thatwill speak to, I think, many
people, to our common humanity.
But I did wonder you collectedthese stories, I think in three
months, at the beginning of thisyear, in the midst of a really
brutal conflict, with verylittle access for journalists,
for example internationaljournalists to Gaza.
How challenging was it and howwilling were the people you
(11:24):
contacted to say yeah, I'm goingto write about this now.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
People were extraordinarily forthcoming.
I mean, it surprised, I think,all of us how much people wanted
the chance to speak.
It's a very important point.
I think, and I try to make thisas often as possible this book
does not give voice to thevoiceless.
The people of Gaza, and as thesame as people everywhere, have
(11:52):
voices, and they've been yellingand shouting and screaming and
trying to be heard for so long,for so long, and so few people
have been listening to them.
The point of this book is notto give a voice.
The point of this book is toamplify the voices of the people
who are not being listened to.
And once we were able to makecontact, it was also, in some
(12:15):
cases, very difficult to makecontact.
Mahmoud, I'm sure, can talkabout this as well, but once we
did make contact, it was as ifthe floodgates opened.
People really wanted to beheard.
They had stories to tell.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Mahmoud.
Is there an element which thisis a hard question, but is there
an element for some of thepeople who contribute that I
need to put something down onpaper because tomorrow might be
too late?
Speaker 6 (12:39):
I think certainly we felt that need to deliver the
story, if you like, beforesomething terrible happens.
We had many of our contributors.
Actually, the process ofcommunication wasn't, of course,
easy.
We were using all types oftechnologies and internet and
phone and even recorded messagesto get the stories out.
(13:01):
I remember vividly a couple ofnights when people were having
bad connection and they said,look, let's talk at midnight, I
will travel somewhere wherethere's internet and then we can
continue the conversation.
And suddenly occurred to me thatpeople are actually traveling
in the middle of a war, in themiddle of Gaza at midnight the
(13:24):
peak of the risk, if you like toget somewhere where they can
get a better internet so theycan actually talk to us.
And there you feel the urgencyor the importance for people to
actually kind of register theirvoice, if you like, or send
their message or send a story.
That was, I don't want to sayshocking, but that was humbling
(13:44):
really to feel that theprivilege that we have, having
all the communication and allthe space that we have, yet
people are taking out on theirown personal risk to reach out
to us and tell us their storyand connect us with someone else
who might also add to the story, and that's how one interview
was leading into anotherinterview as well.
Speaker 10 (14:05):
February 9th 2024.
It's a sunny day and if therewere no war, I would have spent
it swimming in the sea.
As I drive down to Rafah on thecoast road, I see people and
fishermen gathering by the shore, while the clear water invites
those who have no water at hometo take a dip and wash.
I see dozens wading into thewater with their shower gel and
(14:27):
their joy.
Suddenly, I hear engines rising.
I see two gunboats racingtowards the beach.
As they approach the fishingboats, they open fire.
Everyone is terrified and triesto get away.
Our innocent act of resilience,fishing and keeping clean,
represented no threat.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
You might find this a slightly odd quest.
It's a very western question.
The Gaza-Israel question in thewest, in Europe, is incredibly
polarised.
Everybody has a view and peoplefrom Europe, the United States,
coming to this book, mightexpect that also in this book,
(15:13):
and yet it's not there.
There is not, for example, amassive pro-Hamas, certainly not
.
There is not a you know some ofthe more extreme statements
about Israel.
It is not there at all.
Juliet, do you have anythoughts about that?
Speaker 8 (15:36):
It's very, very good that you say that, because,
again, this is the Gaza people.
I love people who do not hateanyone, and I think this is our
small contribution to the world,including international media,
but also others who have decidedvery early on to box the people
(15:59):
of Gaza, as they're all onething and they're all Hamas,
which is far from the truth.
Which is far from the truth.
There is a lot that the worldis missing out on what's
actually happening in Gaza,beyond the atrocities and beyond
what the very heroicPalestinian journalists are
(16:20):
giving to all of us and, ofcourse, the UN and the Red Cross
and all the other organizations.
But that's not enough.
There has to be free access forinternational journalists to
spend time in Gaza, to do thatsafely, and that is something
that the parties to the conflicthave got to do.
I don't know why it's not beendone, but it's certainly helping
(16:47):
to deepen the polarisation thatyou have to be either pro or
anti.
It's not a football game.
This is about our humanity andit's about being able to
sympathise with people whereverthey are.
This is not about taking sides.
(17:07):
It's about whether we're humanor not.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
In this war.
Who am I?
To the world, it seems, I'mjust a number, a person who is
counted on a list of peopledisplaced, people injured, or
people hungry or thirsty, and ifthe next bomb is for me, I will
be forgotten.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
You call the book Daybreak in Gaza, which to me
has this real ring of optimismto it.
And it's so hard for us outsidewe see what we see, the limited
stuff we see, but it's horrificto see any form of optimism,
particularly as this conflict isspreading.
(17:48):
But I think you call it thatbecause of the spirit and the
humanity to see any form ofoptimism, particularly as this
conflict is spreading.
But I think you call it thatbecause of the spirit and the
humanity in the book.
Do you have particular excerpts, just short ones, that you
could share with us that wouldexplain to our listeners why
you've called it Daybreak inGaza and why you have that note
of optimism?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
I'm very happy to chip in.
Yes, what I'm going to offer,if I can, is not a reading.
This is a short audio clip it'sabout a minute or so which we
received from a woman calledAmani Sheltut.
Amani looks after is thedirector of the United Nations
of the UNRWA photo archive inGaza City, and I sent some
questions by text and then shechose to reply by voice.
(18:39):
I find this clip extraordinarilymoving for a lot of reasons.
One is that you can hear thedrones overhead as she's
speaking, which is that noise,that buzzing noise, is an
ever-present in Gaza.
People cannot ever eliminatethe sound of drones.
And, in addition to that, whileshe is answering my trivial
(19:02):
questions about what herfavourite image was in the
archive that she is taking careof, you can also hear the bombs
falling behind her as well.
And yet she has this desire,willingness, presence of mind to
continue with what she's saying, to deliver a message to the
world through me, and thatresponsibility, that burden, if
you like, is one that I takevery, very seriously.
(19:24):
I'll play you this clip now hiand salam from gaza.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
First of all, I wish you all the best in your book
About my favourite images.
My favourite images are thoseabout education, particularly
those show children learning inopen air or in the tents, where
some pupils were sitting on thesands and they don't even have
(19:49):
seats.
Actually, for me, these imagesshow the desire and a need to
change for better and a kind ofa challenge to all of these
tough circumstances, and thatmustn't be the fate forever and,
as we used to say that,education is the passport for
(20:13):
our future and also and youcould be make us a proud of the
our identity.
Many, many thanks for you andfor all those who stand in
solidarity with Gaza.
It's really, really appreciatedand actually what you are doing
is a turning point in history.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
It sets me off every time that clip, but I feel like
it's important to share, whetherI can.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Thank you very much, Matthew, for that.
I think that illustrates verywell why you chose this title.
People keep their faith indesire for education, the desire
to further their lives, despite, as you said, the drones and
the bombs in the background.
What about you, Juliet?
(21:01):
Do you have a particularexcerpt that inspired you
particularly?
Speaker 8 (21:06):
I loved many, many, many, many, many stories.
Many stories made me laugh orsmile.
The falafel story I loved, andI think there's a number of of
people that have already readthe book and and are liking the
book.
But I think story number onecontinues to be Lulu the cat,
(21:28):
and that story just wasincredible.
It was just so, so beautiful.
And again it shows courage anddetermination and lightness in
how people go about their lives.
And it also shows something thatI think important is that none
of this has begun on the 7th ofOctober and that people have
(21:52):
been living through blockade andcheckpoints and restrictions
for many, many decades thePalestinian people, I mean.
And you know, to have somethingas simple as transferring a pet
from one city to anotherbecomes such an ordeal.
I really loved how that storywas put together.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I have to say I've been reading the book all day.
I haven't quite finished it yet, but so far Lulu the Cat, is
also up there among myfavourites.
Mahmoud, I'm going to come.
Finally, your nickname, I think, is the bookseller of Jerusalem
.
I'm sure this book is on yourbookstore shelves.
Do you have a favorite excerptthat illustrates for us the idea
(22:35):
of daybreak in gaza?
Speaker 6 (22:37):
I, I do, and actually among the most interesting
pieces for me throughout theworking the book is, uh, people
who work in the cultural and artscene, because these are close
people to my heart and Iconsider them colleagues.
So I'm going to read a shortstory of an entry that Hossam
al-Madhoun wrote, and Hossam isa child protection officer in a
humanitarian organization inGaza, but he also has a
(23:00):
theatrical background and healso works in theater, and this
is a very short story that Iwill read See yourself for a
shekel.
A boy in the market is holdinga tiny piece of mirror
encouraging people to look attheir faces.
For one shekel this is about 25American US cents he's making a
living by offering a very rareservice.
(23:21):
I have not seen my face since Iarrived in Rafah many weeks ago
.
You cannot buy mirrors anymoreand anyway, a mirror is
something you forget about.
In this situation, how you lookdoesn't really matter.
I asked him do you make moneythis way?
He tells me he does.
Lots of people want to seethemselves.
He says I make 30 shekels a dayor more.
(23:44):
But you see him.
The boy points to a man down thestreet, walking away from us.
He looked at his face but gavethe mirror back to me without
paying.
I'm not stopping him, though.
He had a cut from his face allthe way down to his chest, a
long, horrible cut, not healedwell at all, I think it was from
shrapnel.
He looked at his big ugly scarand when he gave me back the
(24:06):
mirror I saw saw he was cryingso I let him go.
I took the boy's mirror andlooked at my face.
It's got very skinny.
I have no mirror for shaving,so the stubble on my chin is all
uneven Bits, longer than otherbits.
I am a mess.
I did not cry.
I gave the child two shekelsand continued walking.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
A situation most of us can hardly imagine, and that,
again, is why we should readthis book.
Speaker 6 (24:37):
Mirror is a very, very interesting metaphor to use
because I think, as peoplereading the book, they also need
to hold the pages as a mirrorto themselves see how are they
after this war, what have theyfelt and what are they able to
do to stop these horrible thingsfrom continuing to happen.
So I like that piece becauseit's very visual, it has the
(24:58):
child's humour to it, but italso represents us all with a
mirror in front of our face tosee ourselves as well.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
The optimism, humanity that life shines
through in this book and I wouldurge you all, even though you
can't bear to watch the newsanymore, that Daybreak in Gaza
will open your eyes and isreally a very rewarding,
optimistic, in many ways read.
It will make you laugh.
(25:26):
It may also make you cry.
Juliet Tumor, mahmoud Muna andMatthew Teller, thank you all
very much for taking part andgood luck to all of you with the
book.
Mahmoud Muna, juliet, julietTuma and Matthew Teller joining
(25:49):
us there from Jerusalem, beirutand London to tell us about the
new book Daybreak in Gaza.
Now, before our next interview,some exciting news.
Our next episode of InsideGeneva will be coming to you
from New York, taking a look atwhat the UN over there does
sometimes a big question forthose of us based in Geneva and
(26:11):
hearing about the continuedbravery of Russian human rights
defenders, some of whom are inNew York to remind UN member
states of the incredible andrisky work they do.
Join us for that on November12th.
Join us for that on November12th, but now in just a couple
(26:40):
of weeks the UN ClimateConference COP29, will be held
in Baku, in Azerbaijan.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
COP29 is definitely the most important event of this
year.
As a host country, we have aunique opportunity to be the
center of the discussions to be.
Speaker 9 (26:51):
The Azerbaijan, a major fossil fuel producer and
exporter, is the host of thisyear's UN Climate Conference,
cop29.
And it has an appalling humanrights record.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
It's not the first time the UN has held the
conference in a major oil andgas producer.
Last year it was held in theUnited Arab Emirates, the year
before in Egypt.
And these are also, humanrights groups say, countries
with very questionable humanrights records.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
My name is Giorgi Gogia.
I'm Associate Director of theEuropean Central Asia Division
at Human Rights Watch.
I have been doing it for wellover two decades now, and I have
been working on Armenia,Azerbaijan and Georgia.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
And today we're talking about Azerbaijan.
Human Rights Watch haveexpressed concerns about the
UN's annual climate changemeeting COP29, as it's called
being held in Azerbaijan.
What are your key problems withthat event and where it's being
(27:56):
held?
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Well, it is no doubt that we need, in order to combat
climate change, we needambitious, robust climate action
, and this ambitious, robustclimate action is possible only
with strong civil society,independent civil society
participation.
(28:18):
And this is the third time in arow that COP takes place in the
place where fundamentalfreedoms are severely curtailed.
In Azerbaijan, we just releaseda major report, a document,
just in the months leading up toCOP29.
(28:38):
Azerbaijan arrested dozens ofcivic and political activists,
journalists, independentresearchers on various bogus
criminal charges and arbitrarilyimplements very repressive laws
.
That pushes independent civilsociety to the margins of the
(28:59):
law and allows and heightens therisks for retaliatory
prosecutions, which we havedocumented in the past few
months.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
The thing is, I guess it's a bit difficult for the
United Nations, but would yousay the UN should not hold
events in a country withquestionable human rights
records, ie Egypt, for example,as it did with COP a couple of
years ago, or Azerbaijan?
(29:30):
No?
Speaker 4 (29:30):
I would not go as far as not to hold the events, but
use those events to make surethat host countries respect
fundamental human rights,whether it's in choosing the
site or with ensuring that thehost country agreements has very
specific human rightsguarantees that allows for
(29:51):
independent civil society, localor international, to freely,
independently participate inthis important event.
It's not about where it is held,but it's about how it is held,
and it is possible becauseAzerbaijan has this very.
You know, it strives to be aninternational player with global
(30:13):
standing, to be aninternational player with global
standing, it strives to attractinternational attention and it
wants to host such events, andthere's nothing wrong with that.
The important thing is that youknow, if you want to play in
that league, you have to observethe fundamental rights, you
have to observe the rules of thegame and unfortunately,
azerbaijan yet again is failing.
(30:35):
And I'm saying yet again isfailing.
And I'm saying yet againbecause this is not the first
time Azerbaijan is hosting thesemega events.
You know it started fromEurovision Song Contest in 2012.
It moved to European Games,which Azerbaijan invented in
2016, and, you know, invitedevery single delegation and
every single member and paid forthem.
Then you know Formula One, andnow we've seen the unprecedented
(30:57):
global event which it wants touse to whitewash its
international human rights image.
But it should not be allowed todo this.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
And you've got particular concerns about which
the UN does traditionally havewhen it's having a big event in
a member state a host countryagreement.
The UN's not published thisagreement, but you've seen it.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
First of all, you're right, it has not been published
before, unless somebodyobtained it and published it.
It should not fall on civilsociety to publish those host
country agreements.
They should be public and theUN should be making them public
the past ones and the currentones and future ones because
it's a really critical documentthat allows that kind of spells
(31:42):
out the rules of the game.
And the current host countryagreement, for example, for
instance, says that the wildconference participants shall
enjoy immunity for legal processin respect for words spoken or
written and any act performed bythem.
But the separate clause of thesame agreement requires that
(32:03):
they respect Azerbaijani lawsand not interfere in the
internal affairs of Azerbaijan.
There's no clarity in theagreement about what actions
could constitute interferencewith Azerbaijan's internal
affairs and whether Azerbaijan'slaws apply in the UN-run
conference zone.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
I see what you mean.
I mean that does look like abig loophole in the host country
agreement.
What have you observed in theprevious two, if anything, the
COP28, cop27, because we had theUnited Arab Emirates last year
and then Egypt the year before?
These are countries which HumanRights Watch also has big
(32:43):
concerns about.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
I wouldn't like to compare the countries.
First of all, I'm not maybe bestqualified to talk about the
human rights issues in UAE or inEgypt, but there were similar
concerns in terms of freedom ofexpression, assembly association
in those.
But there were similar concernsin terms of freedom of
expression, assembly associationin those countries.
There were kind of politicallymotivating imprisonment as well.
But again, it's one event wherekind of you need to ensure that
(33:10):
local and international humanrights groups, civil society,
climate groups should be able tofreely exercise the fundamental
rights and unfortunately, thisis not something that is
guaranteed in Azerbaijan.
It's flouted routinely, atleast for local groups.
In last year, for example, in2023, there were two protests in
(33:33):
Azerbaijan on smallerclimate-related issues like
environment let's say not evencall them climate,
environment-related issues whenresidents of a local village
protested the water shortage anddam building because of the
mining in their village andAzerbaijan not only
heavy-handedly responded to themand the rest of the dozens, but
(33:56):
for weeks they've isolated thevillage.
They kind of deployed heavysecurity, they did not let any
journalists in or out of thevillage and they basically
crushed dissent in this kind ofvery heavy-handed response
(34:17):
heavy-handed response.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
I sense that your biggest concern is maybe not so
much for internationalnon-governmental organizations
who may go to COP29.
That may all look well and good, but that for local groups who
really want to be involved andbring their own specialist, very
important local knowledge thatthey could be at risk.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
That's a very good observation, imogen, but I would
not again.
It's not only the local groups.
For example, you know justrecently, azerbaijan is very
retaliatory when it comes tocritical criticism.
It recently, weeks ago,sanctioned and imposed bans on
(35:02):
over 70 MPs from the Council ofEurope Parliamentary Assembly
who voted for the criticalresolution against Azerbaijan.
And the response from thegovernment against 76 European
members of parliament was, youknow, the ban for their access
and unless they restore thevoting rights of Azerbaijan in
(35:22):
the Council of the ParliamentaryAssembly.
That's how it responds tointernational criticism, that's
how it reacts to it.
And just if it can do this tointernational MPs, to
international bodies that itaspires to be part of, just
imagine what it can do to itslocal human rights groups that
(35:45):
it has been decimating fordecades now and they're on the
path of extinction just becauseof continuous arrests as well as
arbitrary implementation ofthese extremely repressive laws
that make legitimate humanrights work nearly impossible.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
And for human rights activists, NGOs, who are packing
their bags to go to Azerbaijanto COP29, do you have any
practical advice for them?
Speaker 4 (36:18):
I think that you know I don't know whether I should
go publicly about it, but thereshould be a word that you know
this is a country that has useddigital surveillance in the past
.
Azerbaijan is one of thecountries that has used spyware
to monitor phones and laptops ofindependent journalists, local
independent groups leaders.
(36:39):
So I think they shouldanticipate some surveillance.
You know, they should try tolook out and see if there's, you
know, the local groups thatneed help, that need visibility.
I think it would be reallyimportant to engage with them
and to make sure that thesepeople are not forgotten, that
these people are heard and theirvoices are heard and their
stories are told.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
What could the UN do more, then, to protect NGOs,
human rights groups, at COP29?
Speaker 4 (37:06):
Well, there are a number of things that UN should
be doing.
First of all, they need to,besides what we've discussed
about the publishing the hostcountry agreement and ensuring
that you know, the host countryagreements include concrete
human rights provisions, theguarantees for local
international civil societymedia to participate freely in
(37:29):
the COP event.
They should also engage withthe Azerbaijani government to
ensure that diverse andinclusive civil society
participate at COP 29 Kalamittalks.
The premises should beinclusive, accessible to all and
observers, includinginternational civil society
activists, academia, journalists, groups, individuals.
(37:53):
They should be able, those whoare critical of the government
should have access to thenegotiations and be able to
protest and express theirposition.
Really, dozens have beenarrested in the months leading
to COP29, including 16journalists and other civil
society activists, ngo leaders,and there is time for Azerbaijan
(38:16):
still to set the record rightand they should be releasing
them, and UN should be engagingwith Azerbaijan to ensure that
it does so, because it's stilltime for this COP to go right
and for it to go right.
All these people who areunjustly in prison, including
several outstanding activistslike Anar Mahmadli, who is a
(38:37):
longtime veteran human rightdefender in the country.
In the past, he has beenarrested and European court has
found his arrest politicallymotivated, and currently he was
arrested weeks after he foundedClimate of Justice initiative
that was intended to reuse thismedia limelight on Azerbaijan
during COP 29 to call forabusive human rights record.
(39:02):
He himself has been arrested.
He should be released.
Now is the time for UNFCCC, itsmember states, for
international partners ofAzerbaijan, to insist for their
release, because there is stilltime.
This COP29 can still go right.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
And that brings us to the end of this edition of
Inside Geneva.
My thanks to Gheorghe Gogia ofHuman Rights Watch, and to
Mahmoud Mouna, juliet Tuma andMatthew Teller.
I'm Imogen Folks.
Join us next time on InsideGeneva when we'll be bringing
you a special episode from theUnited Nations in New York.
A reminder you've beenlistening to Inside Geneva, a
(39:53):
Swiss Info production.
You can email us oninsidegeneva at swissinfoch and
subscribe to us and review uswherever you get your podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
(40:14):
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice
.
I'm Imogen Folks.
Thanks again for listening.
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