December 23, 2025 • 29 mins
Inside Geneva joins aid workers staying in Ukraine this December.
The UN refugee agency (UNHCR) supports tens of thousands of people whose homes have been damaged or destroyed.
Marcel van Maastrigt, UNHCR, Odessa: ‘At two in the afternoon you might have an air alert, and at three in the afternoon people in shops and restaurants are putting up Christmas decorations, because they want to continue their life. I think it's understandable.’
MSF (Doctors without Borders) works in hospitals on the front line.
Robin Meldrum, MSF, Ukraine: ‘Today I had electricity in my flat a few hours in the afternoon when I was at work, not here at home. The electricity is going to be off until about 11:00 until 2:00 in the morning. I'll have 3 or 4 hours of electricity tomorrow but it's wearing, it's tiring.’
Aid workers share the risks with their Ukrainian colleagues.
Robin Meldrum: ‘During the night there was a massive attack by Shahed drones and guided aerial bombs. One of the guided aerial bombs landed just about 35 or 40 metres from the two guest houses where our staff were living.’
They share the festive season too.
Marcel van Maastrigt: ‘There is a real effort to make it look like everything is normal, and to have the decorations, have the music outside, have the food. Sometimes people go to parties. It's nice to walk through town and see that happening. It gives some hope that this might in the end be better.’
There are 130 conflicts around the world today, affecting millions of people. This holiday season, thousands of aid workers are staying put, hoping to make things a little better.
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Host: Imogen Foulkes
Production assitant: Claire-Marie Germain
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:47):
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folkes,and this is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's program.
SPEAKER_08 (01:02):
At 2 o'clock in the afternoon, you might have an air
alert, and at 3 o'clock in theafternoon, people in shops and
restaurants are putting upChristmas decorations because
they want to continue theirlife.
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
The target's mainly energy infrastructure, leaving
many areas without electricityor heating.
SPEAKER_03 (01:20):
Today I had electricity in my flat a few
hours in the afternoon.
I'll have three or four hours ofelectricity tomorrow, and it's
wearing, it's tiring.
I mean, Ukrainians who livehere, it's an additional stress.
During the night, there was amassive attack by Shaheed drones
(01:43):
and guided aerial bombs, justabout 35 or 40 meters from the
two guest houses where our staffwere living.
SPEAKER_08 (01:52):
There is a real effort to make it look like
everything is normal and to havethe decorations, have the music
outside, have the food.
Sometimes people go to parties.
It's nice to walk through townand see that happening.
(02:28):
My name is Marcel vanMaastricht.
I'm the head of office for UNHCRin Odessa, in the south of
Ukraine.
SPEAKER_03 (02:35):
I'm Robin Meldrum.
I'm the country director forMedecins sans frontier, Doctors
Without Borders in Ukraine.
SPEAKER_02 (02:43):
Recently, the headlines about Ukraine have all
been about a possible peacedeal.
But in Ukraine itself, nowmarking its fourth Christmas
since Russia's invasion, the warcontinues.
Here in Geneva, the UN HumanRights Commissioner Volker Turk
had this to say.
SPEAKER_09 (03:02):
As peace negotiations continue, our
monitoring and reporting showthat the war is intensifying,
causing more deaths, damage, anddestruction.
Civilian casualties so far thisyear are 24% higher than the
same period last year, largelydue to the Russian Armed Forces
(03:24):
stepping up their use oflong-range missiles and drones
in frontline and urban areas.
This escalation is anever-ending nightmare for the
people of Ukraine.
SPEAKER_02 (03:39):
To try to alleviate that nightmare at least a
little, the UN and other aidagencies have been working in
Ukraine throughout the conflict.
Winter is especiallychallenging.
The UN Refugee Agency is givingsupport, housing, shelter to
tens of thousands of familieswhose homes have been damaged by
(04:00):
the fighting or who have beendisplaced by it.
Marcel van Maastricht, head ofthe UN Agency's Edessa office,
told me more.
SPEAKER_08 (04:09):
We repair homes, we provide legal assistance to
people, we provide support tovulnerable groups, people with
disabilities, the elderly, butwe also have to respond to
emergency situations.
After an attack with drones ormissiles in one of the regions
that we cover, our staff and ourpartners go out to provide uh
(04:32):
emergency shelter materials, forexample, to make sure that
people can stay in their homesand are not uh displaced as a
result of the attack.
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
How are you finding that this winter?
I mean, here we see a lot aboutdrone attacks on the news.
Part of your your area iscovering Kherson, I believe.
SPEAKER_08 (04:56):
Yes, yes.
Um Gherson is a a city that isliterally on the front line.
In in the south, uh nearGherson, the front line is uh
constitutes the Danipro River.
So on one side of the river, youhave Kherson City, which still
has more than 60,000inhabitants, and the other side
(05:16):
of the river, very close, iswhere the troops of the Russian
Federation are.
So Gherson City is uh beingattacked by different uh
weapons, artillery, drones, uhsmaller drones as well, on a
daily and nightly basis.
(05:39):
We have nightly air alerts wherepeople are, of course, asked to
go to the bunker.
We can have six, seven a night.
We also more and more get themduring the day, and I think one
of the ways to describe it is adistorted normalcy.
A picture that I have in my mindnot so long ago was uh an air
(06:01):
alert during the day, and I sawtwo lines of of kids from our
kindergarten hand in handwalking towards one of the
bunkers.
Now it looks very organized.
They were not in panic, theyjust you know there's an air
alert, there is drones coming,we have to go to the bunker.
(06:24):
But that the fact that for thesechildren it was normal to me is
very sad.
You know, no kids should beforced to interrupt their play
to, in an organized fashion, gointo an underground bunker
because their city is beingattacked.
And this was Odessa.
In Gherson it's it's um it'sit's many degrees worse.
I was in Gherson City two daysago, and the population is being
(06:46):
terrorized on a daily basis, andI use that word very
consciously.
When I say terrorized, um thereason I use that is that
Gherson is one of the areaswhere um small drones, first
person uh drones, let's say,that are basically controlled
with an iPad or an iPhone, areused to target civilians that
(07:09):
are on the street going out forshopping on a bike, on a
motorbike.
And the authorities in Hersanthey clearly state it, uh they
say our population is beinghunted.
And I think it's it's it's thecorrect term because there are
videos on YouTube and they'republicly available where they're
(07:32):
being shown, the people in inHerson being shown, being
hunted, and they're calledsafaris by the other side.
So um I think that the term uhhunting is is quite appropriate.
Every time I go into these kindof areas, but even in Odessa, is
the fact that people still holdon.
We use terms for that, it's theresilience, etc.
(07:53):
But I find it um it's a uniqueform of strength that they have
to remain in their cities, toremain in their communities.
SPEAKER_02 (08:02):
You talk about the resilience.
I'm just wondering though, thisis the time of year that people
should be getting together withtheir families, celebrating,
enjoying time off, enjoying alovely dinner together.
How are the people you work withgoing to be able to do that?
SPEAKER_08 (08:22):
Well, the the people I work with, like like my staff,
they they will to some extent beable to do that with with the
family's relatives and friendsthat they live with here.
But again, as with the wholepopulation of Ukraine, they're
also separated from otherrelatives that have either been
displaced into other areas ofUkraine or are refugees in
(08:44):
another country.
But there is an acceptance ofnormalcy here, where on the one
hand, at two o'clock in theafternoon you might have an air
alert, and at three o'clock inthe afternoon, people in shops
and restaurants are putting upChristmas decorations because
they want to continue theirlife.
And I think it's understandablefrom a very personal, a very
(09:05):
visceral point of view, you wantto continue your life because if
you don't, basically you'relost, but also your family, your
children will suffer even more.
People try to have a regularnormal day going to work, going
shopping, but also have a normalseason, celebrating Christmas,
celebrating New Year's.
(09:27):
Also, I think to protect theirchildren from being even more
affected by the war.
There is still, and we know,there is still a gigantic impact
on the psychological welfare ofboth children and adults, and
it's something that we try toaddress in our activities as
well.
But those will be interventionsthat will probably have to last
(09:49):
for years to come becausechildren have basically lost
years and years ofsocialization, have lost years
and years of being together withother children, have lost years
and years of being in schooltogether.
SPEAKER_02 (10:02):
You talked about the people you work with, your
colleagues, and the the peopleyou support, many of them being
separated from loved ones whomay be displaced or may become
refugees.
Or what about you?
What will you be doing over thisholiday season?
I mean, you're you're originallyfrom the Netherlands, I believe.
SPEAKER_08 (10:22):
Yes, yes, I'm from Holland.
I I will probably uh just beworking because you know, as we
just described, the situation isis unfortunately likely to
continue or might even get worseas we saw increased attacks on
energy uh structures uh as wellas other civilian structures.
This is likely to continue, oras I said, even get worse.
(10:44):
So our work will continue, andthat is the same reason why my
Ukrainian colleagues are some ofthem are uh will be working over
over the period.
So it's it's basically where wework and maybe you know have a
have some special food, have ahave a drink um on Christmas
Day.
So we do try to also with withthe staff again take those
(11:08):
moments, but at the same time,we know that uh the same night
we might be called to work, orpartners might be called to work
the next morning.
So that unfortunately continues.
It's the same uh as duringweekends, by the way.
There is no uh lead up, itdoesn't stop, it just continues.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
You've got a couple of new visitors, I understand.
SPEAKER_08 (11:29):
Oh yes.
Um I I am fostering threepuppies that I um that I found
during one of my missions in inone of the oblasts in the south.
I'm not sure it was a gooddecision in hindsight, but I got
them when they were really,really small from an elderly
lady in one of the villages inMikolaev who um who said she
(11:50):
couldn't take care of themanymore for various reasons.
Um at first I was hesitant, buta couple of days later she again
contacted us and says, pleasehelp me with these puppies
because I I I cannot take careof them anymore.
And that's when I uh decided toto pick them up and take them
home.
And it's it's been it's beenfun.
I mean, they're you know, it'sit's um it's sometimes nice to
(12:13):
come home into a more positivechaos, right?
Apart from the chaos that youmight encounter during the rest
of the day.
But this um loud and um andfurry chaos at home is uh is is
relaxing, to be honest.
SPEAKER_02 (12:28):
What do you miss about home in Holland?
And what do you cherish aboutabout being in Odessa at this
time of year?
SPEAKER_08 (12:37):
What I miss in Holland is is you know the
obvious answer is to be with bewith my relatives and friends,
to be with with the group ofpeople that I would spend that
time of year with normally.
But I think it also it sometimesexpresses in smells, right?
In tastes, in in food, in thesmell of of a Christmas tree, of
(12:58):
decorations, of uh of uhrelatives preparing a certain
dish.
What I like about Odessa isthat, as I said before,
regardless of the situation, thepeople, the community as it is,
uh in the case of Odessa, thecity, is still putting a lot of
effort to create that kind ofatmosphere.
(13:18):
There is a real effort to makeit look like everything is
normal and to again have thedecorations, have the music
outside, have the food.
Sometimes people you know go toparties.
It's nice to walk through townand see that happening.
In a way, it it gives you somehope.
(13:39):
Yeah, this this might in theend, you know, be better.
SPEAKER_02 (13:45):
Marcel van Maastricht of the UN Refugee
Agency speaking to us fromEdessa with a hope I think we
all share.
Now, just before we hear ournext interview, here's some news
about another podcast InsideGeneva listeners might enjoy.
SPEAKER_11 (14:02):
Hello, I'm Femi OK, and I'm the new host of The
Negotiators, the show that drawsback the curtain on some of the
most compelling negotiationsaround the world.
This season, we're taking ascuba diving in the Red Sea,
walking the grounds of a luxuryresort in Uganda, and even
aboard an aging oil tankerfloating off the coast of Yemen.
SPEAKER_05 (14:22):
We were constantly monitored by drones overhead,
divers under the vessel, so itwas not exactly a high trust
operation.
SPEAKER_02 (14:28):
That's the negotiators, available now,
wherever you get your podcasts.
New podcast, The Negotiators,one I'll certainly be listening
to.
And now to our second interviewfrom Ukraine, from a cold, dark
capital city.
SPEAKER_03 (14:44):
I'm Robin Meldrum.
I'm the country director forMédecins sans frontier, Doctors
Without Borders in Ukraine.
I'm currently in Kiev, and wehave operations uh along a long
part of the front lines of theconflict here.
SPEAKER_02 (14:59):
It's dark there, Robin, and you look a bit cold.
SPEAKER_03 (15:02):
Yeah, well, I mean, the Russian forces have been
targeting the energyinfrastructure, and it's getting
worse and worse, to be honest.
SPEAKER_04 (15:13):
The Kyiv skyline on the fourth round of Russia's now
weekly concerted targeting ofthe water in people's taps, the
heating in their homes.
SPEAKER_00 (15:23):
Well, President Zelensky has asked Ukrainians to
consume electricity with quoteawareness tomorrow.
This after a grid operatorwarned of rolling blackouts
because of damage to thecountry's power infrastructure
from missile attacks by Moscow.
SPEAKER_03 (15:37):
Today I had electricity in my flats a few
hours in the afternoon when Iwas at work, not here at home.
The electricity is going to beoff until about 11 o'clock, uh,
until two o'clock in themorning.
I'll have three or four hours ofelectricity tomorrow.
And it's wearing, it's tiring.
It's tiring for me, and Ihaven't been here that long.
(15:57):
This has been an accumulatedstress for Ukrainians who live
here.
It's an additional stress.
This is already quite bad interms of energy cuts.
Sometimes on a good day, wemight have 10 hours of
electricity.
On a bad day, we might have fourhours of electricity.
If the Russian strikes on energyinfrastructure continue in the
(16:19):
same way, this could get worse.
This could be a very difficultwinter.
SPEAKER_02 (16:23):
Tell me a bit what kind of an average day then, or
for you.
SPEAKER_03 (16:28):
An average day it's an exercise in juggling
different priorities.
So for us, there's a there's areal balance between the
security aspects and the levelof life-saving care we're
providing.
Really, I mean, close to thefront lines, the needs are very
(16:50):
high.
And we're here to respond to theneeds, we're here to provide
medical care for people wherethey have very few other
options.
But you have to pull back whenthe risks get too high.
(17:15):
During the night, there was amassive attack by Shahid drones
and guided aerial bombs.
One of the guided aerial bombslanded just about 35 or 40
meters from the two guest houseswhere our staff were living, and
all the windows shattered, gaspipeline uh lit up, um, and it's
(17:37):
absolutely outrageous.
It's completely unthinkable.
Uh, it was in a completelycivilian area on the outskirts
of town.
Our neighbors were a beekeeper,a family with children, uh, the
cook who cooks for us in theguest houses was one of our
neighbors, some otherinternational NGOs uh were our
(17:58):
neighbors.
That's the environment that wewere living in, and yet this
guided aerial bomb landed justso close to us.
Everyone was in the basementshelter, everyone was safe,
everybody got out fine, but thisis a close call.
This is the environment in a warwhere it seems the the rules of
war uh are not being veryclosely respected.
SPEAKER_02 (18:20):
Tell me about the people you meet in these
frontline areas.
SPEAKER_03 (18:28):
Well, I could start with uh my own colleagues in
MSF.
Um, all of these are people fromUkraine, and they've lived
through this.
A lot of our staff uh come fromareas that are now currently
under Russian occupation.
People have lived through prettygrim experiences, and their
(18:48):
commitment levels, their desireto do a good job every day is
absolutely inspiring.
It's that these areextraordinary people to work
with.
But going beyond my colleagues,as you get closer to the front
lines, there's something that'srather unique, I think, about uh
the situation in Ukraine.
(19:10):
We have villages which are uhlargely depopulated apart from
the elderly people, the olderpeople.
And these are the people whohave stayed behind.
We often find they will refuseto move until the very last
moment when it's really almosttoo late, and sometimes it is
too late.
(19:30):
And these are people who theyhave chronic diseases, they have
diabetes or hypertension, theyhave medical needs that must be
responded to, otherwise,otherwise they will die.
And there's very littleprovision of medical care in
those areas.
The other thing that we found,public transport has basically
(19:51):
broken down.
So you have communities ofelderly people who are
determined to stay in theirhouses.
This is the place that they'velived for generations, and they
are either unwilling to leave orfrightened to leave or don't
have the capacity to leave.
The public transport is brokendown, they can't get to the
(20:12):
nearest primary healthcarecenter.
And this is our challenge.
How do you reach these peopleand provide them with their
diabetes care, theirhypertension uh treatments?
How do you continue that medicalcare for people who are pretty
vulnerable and who are stayingput where they are?
SPEAKER_02 (20:31):
This is a time of year, of course, where people of
that generation would beexpecting to be getting together
with their children andgrandchildren.
SPEAKER_03 (20:40):
Absolutely.
I think um I think this time ofyear in Ukraine is is going to
be difficult.
I think it's been difficult forthe past uh three and a half,
nearly four years.
And I think it's gonna be noless difficult this year.
SPEAKER_02 (20:54):
You're going to be staying there too.
How's that gonna be for you?
SPEAKER_03 (20:58):
Christmas this year in Ukraine.
I don't actually know quite whatit will be like.
I was here last year.
I was in Mikolaev, not far fromthe frontline city of Kherson.
We had an international staffhouse and we invited some of our
(21:21):
Ukrainian staff around to thehouse with their families and
children.
We cooked for about 16 people.
We had a five-course meal,different people cooked
different things from theircountry, and it was and it was a
fantastic evening.
But it was tinged with sorrow.
The people who couldn't bethere, the people who weren't
there.
(21:41):
This year, I may be in Kiev, Imay be in Mikulaiv, or I may be
in Dnipro.
I don't know yet.
But it we'll find a way to makeit special somehow.
SPEAKER_02 (21:51):
What do you miss though?
I mean, you you won't be home,you won't be in in Britain.
SPEAKER_03 (21:56):
What will I miss?
I mean, there's it's not so muchwhat I will miss as what I will
what I will try to bring to myexperience here in Ukraine uh
from home.
So I know because I was herelast year, this time when I came
back to Ukraine, I broughtvegetarian suet from shops in
the UK because I know you can't,I can't find that here in uh in
(22:20):
Ukraine.
So that means that now I'm ableto make my own mince meat, I can
make my own mince pies, and Ican bring a little bit of home
here to Ukraine, and I can shareit with people, I can share it
with my colleagues, I can shareit with Ukrainian uh colleagues,
I can uh I can introduceUkrainian colleagues to the joy
of a good homemade mince pie.
SPEAKER_02 (22:39):
This is now the fourth Christmas of this war.
How do you sense the mood of thepeople?
SPEAKER_03 (22:46):
Yeah, it's um I think people are incredibly
tired and it's understandable.
The relentless, in the back ofyour mind, concern that an air
raid might go off.
That there might be ballisticmissiles that land in Kiev when
the big attacks come in, theyare really big.
(23:12):
You feel the walls and the floorand the ceiling of your flat
shaking, and this can happen atvery short notice, and this can
happen at almost any moment, andthe relentless tension of that
has been weighing on people.
And I know that people will tryand find a bit of solace,
(23:33):
they'll try and find a moment ofjoy, of family reunification for
those who can, and that's noteverybody, but it will be
short-lived, it will befleeting, and then the fear and
the anxiety and the concern willtake the four again.
SPEAKER_02 (23:50):
You know, I'm sure that I mean, I'm talking to you
from Geneva, that thetraditional donors for the kind
of work you do are shrinkingwith a sense you hear it a lot
now, that this kind of work isoverfunded and doesn't like some
people say I had an ambassadorsay it to me just a couple of
(24:13):
weeks ago.
It doesn't do any good, itdoesn't change things.
SPEAKER_03 (24:17):
Oh goodness me.
Anyone who doubts the importanceof supporting humanitarian aid
in Ukraine should uh come andvisit my team embedded in a
hospital in Kherson City, whichis next door to the Dnipro
River.
It's a frontline city.
Our team goes in there, theyspend two weeks living in the
(24:40):
hospital.
It's got a good basementshelter.
We don't allow the team to leavethe building.
Once they're in, they're in.
They stay there for two weeks,they don't leave for any reason
whatsoever.
And then at the end of their twoweeks, they're rotated out, and
another team comes in.
And every day their backdropsound is shells going off,
(25:00):
explosions, artillery.
They run the emergencydepartments and they support in
the intensive care unit.
And the issue is the hospital isincredibly well run, but they
don't have enough staff.
And I think those services, Idon't know if they would
(25:23):
collapse without our support,but they would struggle
massively, and they might evencollapse.
This is a city, Kherson.
It's right on the front line,but it's still got about 90,000
civilian people living there.
And most of the people who areleft in Kherson are elderly
people.
When winter comes, we see lotsof people slipping, sliding,
(25:45):
falling, old bones breaking.
I mean, the emergency departmentis full.
And so I would say to anybodydoubting the need for support,
go and spend a couple of days inthis place and you would change
your mind.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
Very last question then.
You're spending Christmas inUkraine.
I'm assuming you'll be there forthe new year.
What are you hoping for for2026?
SPEAKER_03 (26:12):
Well, one thing on New Year, I'm not expecting
fireworks.
They're banned in Ukraine.
So there won't be fireworks.
Um what am I expecting for 26?
For 2026, I genuinely don't knowwhat to expect.
There's so much uncertainty.
(26:32):
I can hope for peace, I can hopefor ceasefires, I can hope for
an end to frankly what is atotally unjustified hell that is
happening to the Ukrainianpeople.
What I can expect, I reallydon't know.
But whatever happens, I have anincredibly strong team of
Ukrainian colleagues here, verycommitted, very hardworking.
(26:55):
I know they will do whateverthey can to try and help people
as much as possible.
And it's very inspiring to workalongside them.
SPEAKER_02 (27:32):
Trying to bring a little help in dark and
difficult times.
As 2025 draws to a close, thereare more conflicts and more
people in need, but much lessmoney to support them.
So if you're feeling generousthis holiday season, you can
subscribe to Inside Geneva, andin our newsletter you will find
(27:53):
all the details about groupslike the UN Refugee Agency and
Médecins Sans Frontieres, so youcan support them yourself if you
wish.
SPEAKER_07 (28:21):
Ukraine.
All the talk of peace to someextent eclipsed the humanitarian
toll of this conflict.
The large numbers of Ukrainiansthat had been hunted down by
short-range drones.
SPEAKER_06 (28:33):
I wanted to speak about Gaza, which it has been,
in the words of so manyhumanitarians, the most horrific
humanitarian crisis they've seenin their careers.
SPEAKER_02 (28:41):
Climate change, well, where was it in 2025?
We had COP30, the United Statesdidn't go, the most powerful man
on earth, President Trump,telling the assembled UN leaders
that it was all a massive conjob.
SPEAKER_10 (28:56):
The top story of 2025 has been uh cuts in the
humanitarian aid sector.
SPEAKER_02 (29:02):
That's out on January 6th.
Do join us then.
For now, all the very best and agood start to the new year.
This has been Inside Geneva.
I'm Imogen Folks.
Thank you for listening.
A reminder (29:23):
you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a
Swiss Info production.
You can subscribe to us andreview us wherever you get your
podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice.
(29:47):
I'm Imogen Folks.
Thanks again for listening.
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folkes,and this is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's program.
SPEAKER_08 (01:02):
At 2 o'clock in the afternoon, you might have an air
alert, and at 3 o'clock in theafternoon, people in shops and
restaurants are putting upChristmas decorations because
they want to continue theirlife.
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
The target's mainly energy infrastructure, leaving
many areas without electricityor heating.
SPEAKER_03 (01:20):
Today I had electricity in my flat a few
hours in the afternoon.
I'll have three or four hours ofelectricity tomorrow, and it's
wearing, it's tiring.
I mean, Ukrainians who livehere, it's an additional stress.
During the night, there was amassive attack by Shaheed drones
(01:43):
and guided aerial bombs, justabout 35 or 40 meters from the
two guest houses where our staffwere living.
SPEAKER_08 (01:52):
There is a real effort to make it look like
everything is normal and to havethe decorations, have the music
outside, have the food.
Sometimes people go to parties.
It's nice to walk through townand see that happening.
(02:28):
My name is Marcel vanMaastricht.
I'm the head of office for UNHCRin Odessa, in the south of
Ukraine.
SPEAKER_03 (02:35):
I'm Robin Meldrum.
I'm the country director forMedecins sans frontier, Doctors
Without Borders in Ukraine.
SPEAKER_02 (02:43):
Recently, the headlines about Ukraine have all
been about a possible peacedeal.
But in Ukraine itself, nowmarking its fourth Christmas
since Russia's invasion, the warcontinues.
Here in Geneva, the UN HumanRights Commissioner Volker Turk
had this to say.
SPEAKER_09 (03:02):
As peace negotiations continue, our
monitoring and reporting showthat the war is intensifying,
causing more deaths, damage, anddestruction.
Civilian casualties so far thisyear are 24% higher than the
same period last year, largelydue to the Russian Armed Forces
(03:24):
stepping up their use oflong-range missiles and drones
in frontline and urban areas.
This escalation is anever-ending nightmare for the
people of Ukraine.
SPEAKER_02 (03:39):
To try to alleviate that nightmare at least a
little, the UN and other aidagencies have been working in
Ukraine throughout the conflict.
Winter is especiallychallenging.
The UN Refugee Agency is givingsupport, housing, shelter to
tens of thousands of familieswhose homes have been damaged by
(04:00):
the fighting or who have beendisplaced by it.
Marcel van Maastricht, head ofthe UN Agency's Edessa office,
told me more.
SPEAKER_08 (04:09):
We repair homes, we provide legal assistance to
people, we provide support tovulnerable groups, people with
disabilities, the elderly, butwe also have to respond to
emergency situations.
After an attack with drones ormissiles in one of the regions
that we cover, our staff and ourpartners go out to provide uh
(04:32):
emergency shelter materials, forexample, to make sure that
people can stay in their homesand are not uh displaced as a
result of the attack.
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
How are you finding that this winter?
I mean, here we see a lot aboutdrone attacks on the news.
Part of your your area iscovering Kherson, I believe.
SPEAKER_08 (04:56):
Yes, yes.
Um Gherson is a a city that isliterally on the front line.
In in the south, uh nearGherson, the front line is uh
constitutes the Danipro River.
So on one side of the river, youhave Kherson City, which still
has more than 60,000inhabitants, and the other side
(05:16):
of the river, very close, iswhere the troops of the Russian
Federation are.
So Gherson City is uh beingattacked by different uh
weapons, artillery, drones, uhsmaller drones as well, on a
daily and nightly basis.
(05:39):
We have nightly air alerts wherepeople are, of course, asked to
go to the bunker.
We can have six, seven a night.
We also more and more get themduring the day, and I think one
of the ways to describe it is adistorted normalcy.
A picture that I have in my mindnot so long ago was uh an air
(06:01):
alert during the day, and I sawtwo lines of of kids from our
kindergarten hand in handwalking towards one of the
bunkers.
Now it looks very organized.
They were not in panic, theyjust you know there's an air
alert, there is drones coming,we have to go to the bunker.
(06:24):
But that the fact that for thesechildren it was normal to me is
very sad.
You know, no kids should beforced to interrupt their play
to, in an organized fashion, gointo an underground bunker
because their city is beingattacked.
And this was Odessa.
In Gherson it's it's um it'sit's many degrees worse.
I was in Gherson City two daysago, and the population is being
(06:46):
terrorized on a daily basis, andI use that word very
consciously.
When I say terrorized, um thereason I use that is that
Gherson is one of the areaswhere um small drones, first
person uh drones, let's say,that are basically controlled
with an iPad or an iPhone, areused to target civilians that
(07:09):
are on the street going out forshopping on a bike, on a
motorbike.
And the authorities in Hersanthey clearly state it, uh they
say our population is beinghunted.
And I think it's it's it's thecorrect term because there are
videos on YouTube and they'republicly available where they're
(07:32):
being shown, the people in inHerson being shown, being
hunted, and they're calledsafaris by the other side.
So um I think that the term uhhunting is is quite appropriate.
Every time I go into these kindof areas, but even in Odessa, is
the fact that people still holdon.
We use terms for that, it's theresilience, etc.
(07:53):
But I find it um it's a uniqueform of strength that they have
to remain in their cities, toremain in their communities.
SPEAKER_02 (08:02):
You talk about the resilience.
I'm just wondering though, thisis the time of year that people
should be getting together withtheir families, celebrating,
enjoying time off, enjoying alovely dinner together.
How are the people you work withgoing to be able to do that?
SPEAKER_08 (08:22):
Well, the the people I work with, like like my staff,
they they will to some extent beable to do that with with the
family's relatives and friendsthat they live with here.
But again, as with the wholepopulation of Ukraine, they're
also separated from otherrelatives that have either been
displaced into other areas ofUkraine or are refugees in
(08:44):
another country.
But there is an acceptance ofnormalcy here, where on the one
hand, at two o'clock in theafternoon you might have an air
alert, and at three o'clock inthe afternoon, people in shops
and restaurants are putting upChristmas decorations because
they want to continue theirlife.
And I think it's understandablefrom a very personal, a very
(09:05):
visceral point of view, you wantto continue your life because if
you don't, basically you'relost, but also your family, your
children will suffer even more.
People try to have a regularnormal day going to work, going
shopping, but also have a normalseason, celebrating Christmas,
celebrating New Year's.
(09:27):
Also, I think to protect theirchildren from being even more
affected by the war.
There is still, and we know,there is still a gigantic impact
on the psychological welfare ofboth children and adults, and
it's something that we try toaddress in our activities as
well.
But those will be interventionsthat will probably have to last
(09:49):
for years to come becausechildren have basically lost
years and years ofsocialization, have lost years
and years of being together withother children, have lost years
and years of being in schooltogether.
SPEAKER_02 (10:02):
You talked about the people you work with, your
colleagues, and the the peopleyou support, many of them being
separated from loved ones whomay be displaced or may become
refugees.
Or what about you?
What will you be doing over thisholiday season?
I mean, you're you're originallyfrom the Netherlands, I believe.
SPEAKER_08 (10:22):
Yes, yes, I'm from Holland.
I I will probably uh just beworking because you know, as we
just described, the situation isis unfortunately likely to
continue or might even get worseas we saw increased attacks on
energy uh structures uh as wellas other civilian structures.
This is likely to continue, oras I said, even get worse.
(10:44):
So our work will continue, andthat is the same reason why my
Ukrainian colleagues are some ofthem are uh will be working over
over the period.
So it's it's basically where wework and maybe you know have a
have some special food, have ahave a drink um on Christmas
Day.
So we do try to also with withthe staff again take those
(11:08):
moments, but at the same time,we know that uh the same night
we might be called to work, orpartners might be called to work
the next morning.
So that unfortunately continues.
It's the same uh as duringweekends, by the way.
There is no uh lead up, itdoesn't stop, it just continues.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
You've got a couple of new visitors, I understand.
SPEAKER_08 (11:29):
Oh yes.
Um I I am fostering threepuppies that I um that I found
during one of my missions in inone of the oblasts in the south.
I'm not sure it was a gooddecision in hindsight, but I got
them when they were really,really small from an elderly
lady in one of the villages inMikolaev who um who said she
(11:50):
couldn't take care of themanymore for various reasons.
Um at first I was hesitant, buta couple of days later she again
contacted us and says, pleasehelp me with these puppies
because I I I cannot take careof them anymore.
And that's when I uh decided toto pick them up and take them
home.
And it's it's been it's beenfun.
I mean, they're you know, it'sit's um it's sometimes nice to
(12:13):
come home into a more positivechaos, right?
Apart from the chaos that youmight encounter during the rest
of the day.
But this um loud and um andfurry chaos at home is uh is is
relaxing, to be honest.
SPEAKER_02 (12:28):
What do you miss about home in Holland?
And what do you cherish aboutabout being in Odessa at this
time of year?
SPEAKER_08 (12:37):
What I miss in Holland is is you know the
obvious answer is to be with bewith my relatives and friends,
to be with with the group ofpeople that I would spend that
time of year with normally.
But I think it also it sometimesexpresses in smells, right?
In tastes, in in food, in thesmell of of a Christmas tree, of
(12:58):
decorations, of uh of uhrelatives preparing a certain
dish.
What I like about Odessa isthat, as I said before,
regardless of the situation, thepeople, the community as it is,
uh in the case of Odessa, thecity, is still putting a lot of
effort to create that kind ofatmosphere.
(13:18):
There is a real effort to makeit look like everything is
normal and to again have thedecorations, have the music
outside, have the food.
Sometimes people you know go toparties.
It's nice to walk through townand see that happening.
In a way, it it gives you somehope.
(13:39):
Yeah, this this might in theend, you know, be better.
SPEAKER_02 (13:45):
Marcel van Maastricht of the UN Refugee
Agency speaking to us fromEdessa with a hope I think we
all share.
Now, just before we hear ournext interview, here's some news
about another podcast InsideGeneva listeners might enjoy.
SPEAKER_11 (14:02):
Hello, I'm Femi OK, and I'm the new host of The
Negotiators, the show that drawsback the curtain on some of the
most compelling negotiationsaround the world.
This season, we're taking ascuba diving in the Red Sea,
walking the grounds of a luxuryresort in Uganda, and even
aboard an aging oil tankerfloating off the coast of Yemen.
SPEAKER_05 (14:22):
We were constantly monitored by drones overhead,
divers under the vessel, so itwas not exactly a high trust
operation.
SPEAKER_02 (14:28):
That's the negotiators, available now,
wherever you get your podcasts.
New podcast, The Negotiators,one I'll certainly be listening
to.
And now to our second interviewfrom Ukraine, from a cold, dark
capital city.
SPEAKER_03 (14:44):
I'm Robin Meldrum.
I'm the country director forMédecins sans frontier, Doctors
Without Borders in Ukraine.
I'm currently in Kiev, and wehave operations uh along a long
part of the front lines of theconflict here.
SPEAKER_02 (14:59):
It's dark there, Robin, and you look a bit cold.
SPEAKER_03 (15:02):
Yeah, well, I mean, the Russian forces have been
targeting the energyinfrastructure, and it's getting
worse and worse, to be honest.
SPEAKER_04 (15:13):
The Kyiv skyline on the fourth round of Russia's now
weekly concerted targeting ofthe water in people's taps, the
heating in their homes.
SPEAKER_00 (15:23):
Well, President Zelensky has asked Ukrainians to
consume electricity with quoteawareness tomorrow.
This after a grid operatorwarned of rolling blackouts
because of damage to thecountry's power infrastructure
from missile attacks by Moscow.
SPEAKER_03 (15:37):
Today I had electricity in my flats a few
hours in the afternoon when Iwas at work, not here at home.
The electricity is going to beoff until about 11 o'clock, uh,
until two o'clock in themorning.
I'll have three or four hours ofelectricity tomorrow.
And it's wearing, it's tiring.
It's tiring for me, and Ihaven't been here that long.
(15:57):
This has been an accumulatedstress for Ukrainians who live
here.
It's an additional stress.
This is already quite bad interms of energy cuts.
Sometimes on a good day, wemight have 10 hours of
electricity.
On a bad day, we might have fourhours of electricity.
If the Russian strikes on energyinfrastructure continue in the
(16:19):
same way, this could get worse.
This could be a very difficultwinter.
SPEAKER_02 (16:23):
Tell me a bit what kind of an average day then, or
for you.
SPEAKER_03 (16:28):
An average day it's an exercise in juggling
different priorities.
So for us, there's a there's areal balance between the
security aspects and the levelof life-saving care we're
providing.
Really, I mean, close to thefront lines, the needs are very
(16:50):
high.
And we're here to respond to theneeds, we're here to provide
medical care for people wherethey have very few other
options.
But you have to pull back whenthe risks get too high.
(17:15):
During the night, there was amassive attack by Shahid drones
and guided aerial bombs.
One of the guided aerial bombslanded just about 35 or 40
meters from the two guest houseswhere our staff were living, and
all the windows shattered, gaspipeline uh lit up, um, and it's
(17:37):
absolutely outrageous.
It's completely unthinkable.
Uh, it was in a completelycivilian area on the outskirts
of town.
Our neighbors were a beekeeper,a family with children, uh, the
cook who cooks for us in theguest houses was one of our
neighbors, some otherinternational NGOs uh were our
(17:58):
neighbors.
That's the environment that wewere living in, and yet this
guided aerial bomb landed justso close to us.
Everyone was in the basementshelter, everyone was safe,
everybody got out fine, but thisis a close call.
This is the environment in a warwhere it seems the the rules of
war uh are not being veryclosely respected.
SPEAKER_02 (18:20):
Tell me about the people you meet in these
frontline areas.
SPEAKER_03 (18:28):
Well, I could start with uh my own colleagues in
MSF.
Um, all of these are people fromUkraine, and they've lived
through this.
A lot of our staff uh come fromareas that are now currently
under Russian occupation.
People have lived through prettygrim experiences, and their
(18:48):
commitment levels, their desireto do a good job every day is
absolutely inspiring.
It's that these areextraordinary people to work
with.
But going beyond my colleagues,as you get closer to the front
lines, there's something that'srather unique, I think, about uh
the situation in Ukraine.
(19:10):
We have villages which are uhlargely depopulated apart from
the elderly people, the olderpeople.
And these are the people whohave stayed behind.
We often find they will refuseto move until the very last
moment when it's really almosttoo late, and sometimes it is
too late.
(19:30):
And these are people who theyhave chronic diseases, they have
diabetes or hypertension, theyhave medical needs that must be
responded to, otherwise,otherwise they will die.
And there's very littleprovision of medical care in
those areas.
The other thing that we found,public transport has basically
(19:51):
broken down.
So you have communities ofelderly people who are
determined to stay in theirhouses.
This is the place that they'velived for generations, and they
are either unwilling to leave orfrightened to leave or don't
have the capacity to leave.
The public transport is brokendown, they can't get to the
(20:12):
nearest primary healthcarecenter.
And this is our challenge.
How do you reach these peopleand provide them with their
diabetes care, theirhypertension uh treatments?
How do you continue that medicalcare for people who are pretty
vulnerable and who are stayingput where they are?
SPEAKER_02 (20:31):
This is a time of year, of course, where people of
that generation would beexpecting to be getting together
with their children andgrandchildren.
SPEAKER_03 (20:40):
Absolutely.
I think um I think this time ofyear in Ukraine is is going to
be difficult.
I think it's been difficult forthe past uh three and a half,
nearly four years.
And I think it's gonna be noless difficult this year.
SPEAKER_02 (20:54):
You're going to be staying there too.
How's that gonna be for you?
SPEAKER_03 (20:58):
Christmas this year in Ukraine.
I don't actually know quite whatit will be like.
I was here last year.
I was in Mikolaev, not far fromthe frontline city of Kherson.
We had an international staffhouse and we invited some of our
(21:21):
Ukrainian staff around to thehouse with their families and
children.
We cooked for about 16 people.
We had a five-course meal,different people cooked
different things from theircountry, and it was and it was a
fantastic evening.
But it was tinged with sorrow.
The people who couldn't bethere, the people who weren't
there.
(21:41):
This year, I may be in Kiev, Imay be in Mikulaiv, or I may be
in Dnipro.
I don't know yet.
But it we'll find a way to makeit special somehow.
SPEAKER_02 (21:51):
What do you miss though?
I mean, you you won't be home,you won't be in in Britain.
SPEAKER_03 (21:56):
What will I miss?
I mean, there's it's not so muchwhat I will miss as what I will
what I will try to bring to myexperience here in Ukraine uh
from home.
So I know because I was herelast year, this time when I came
back to Ukraine, I broughtvegetarian suet from shops in
the UK because I know you can't,I can't find that here in uh in
(22:20):
Ukraine.
So that means that now I'm ableto make my own mince meat, I can
make my own mince pies, and Ican bring a little bit of home
here to Ukraine, and I can shareit with people, I can share it
with my colleagues, I can shareit with Ukrainian uh colleagues,
I can uh I can introduceUkrainian colleagues to the joy
of a good homemade mince pie.
SPEAKER_02 (22:39):
This is now the fourth Christmas of this war.
How do you sense the mood of thepeople?
SPEAKER_03 (22:46):
Yeah, it's um I think people are incredibly
tired and it's understandable.
The relentless, in the back ofyour mind, concern that an air
raid might go off.
That there might be ballisticmissiles that land in Kiev when
the big attacks come in, theyare really big.
(23:12):
You feel the walls and the floorand the ceiling of your flat
shaking, and this can happen atvery short notice, and this can
happen at almost any moment, andthe relentless tension of that
has been weighing on people.
And I know that people will tryand find a bit of solace,
(23:33):
they'll try and find a moment ofjoy, of family reunification for
those who can, and that's noteverybody, but it will be
short-lived, it will befleeting, and then the fear and
the anxiety and the concern willtake the four again.
SPEAKER_02 (23:50):
You know, I'm sure that I mean, I'm talking to you
from Geneva, that thetraditional donors for the kind
of work you do are shrinkingwith a sense you hear it a lot
now, that this kind of work isoverfunded and doesn't like some
people say I had an ambassadorsay it to me just a couple of
(24:13):
weeks ago.
It doesn't do any good, itdoesn't change things.
SPEAKER_03 (24:17):
Oh goodness me.
Anyone who doubts the importanceof supporting humanitarian aid
in Ukraine should uh come andvisit my team embedded in a
hospital in Kherson City, whichis next door to the Dnipro
River.
It's a frontline city.
Our team goes in there, theyspend two weeks living in the
(24:40):
hospital.
It's got a good basementshelter.
We don't allow the team to leavethe building.
Once they're in, they're in.
They stay there for two weeks,they don't leave for any reason
whatsoever.
And then at the end of their twoweeks, they're rotated out, and
another team comes in.
And every day their backdropsound is shells going off,
(25:00):
explosions, artillery.
They run the emergencydepartments and they support in
the intensive care unit.
And the issue is the hospital isincredibly well run, but they
don't have enough staff.
And I think those services, Idon't know if they would
(25:23):
collapse without our support,but they would struggle
massively, and they might evencollapse.
This is a city, Kherson.
It's right on the front line,but it's still got about 90,000
civilian people living there.
And most of the people who areleft in Kherson are elderly
people.
When winter comes, we see lotsof people slipping, sliding,
(25:45):
falling, old bones breaking.
I mean, the emergency departmentis full.
And so I would say to anybodydoubting the need for support,
go and spend a couple of days inthis place and you would change
your mind.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
Very last question then.
You're spending Christmas inUkraine.
I'm assuming you'll be there forthe new year.
What are you hoping for for2026?
SPEAKER_03 (26:12):
Well, one thing on New Year, I'm not expecting
fireworks.
They're banned in Ukraine.
So there won't be fireworks.
Um what am I expecting for 26?
For 2026, I genuinely don't knowwhat to expect.
There's so much uncertainty.
(26:32):
I can hope for peace, I can hopefor ceasefires, I can hope for
an end to frankly what is atotally unjustified hell that is
happening to the Ukrainianpeople.
What I can expect, I reallydon't know.
But whatever happens, I have anincredibly strong team of
Ukrainian colleagues here, verycommitted, very hardworking.
(26:55):
I know they will do whateverthey can to try and help people
as much as possible.
And it's very inspiring to workalongside them.
SPEAKER_02 (27:32):
Trying to bring a little help in dark and
difficult times.
As 2025 draws to a close, thereare more conflicts and more
people in need, but much lessmoney to support them.
So if you're feeling generousthis holiday season, you can
subscribe to Inside Geneva, andin our newsletter you will find
(27:53):
all the details about groupslike the UN Refugee Agency and
Médecins Sans Frontieres, so youcan support them yourself if you
wish.
SPEAKER_07 (28:21):
Ukraine.
All the talk of peace to someextent eclipsed the humanitarian
toll of this conflict.
The large numbers of Ukrainiansthat had been hunted down by
short-range drones.
SPEAKER_06 (28:33):
I wanted to speak about Gaza, which it has been,
in the words of so manyhumanitarians, the most horrific
humanitarian crisis they've seenin their careers.
SPEAKER_02 (28:41):
Climate change, well, where was it in 2025?
We had COP30, the United Statesdidn't go, the most powerful man
on earth, President Trump,telling the assembled UN leaders
that it was all a massive conjob.
SPEAKER_10 (28:56):
The top story of 2025 has been uh cuts in the
humanitarian aid sector.
SPEAKER_02 (29:02):
That's out on January 6th.
Do join us then.
For now, all the very best and agood start to the new year.
This has been Inside Geneva.
I'm Imogen Folks.
Thank you for listening.
A reminder (29:23):
you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a
Swiss Info production.
You can subscribe to us andreview us wherever you get your
podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice.
(29:47):
I'm Imogen Folks.
Thanks again for listening.
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