October 7, 2024 • 31 mins
It’s been one year since the October 7 attack by Hamas on Israel. Twelve months of violent conflict have followed, with tens of thousands dead. We look back at our coverage over the past year.
“What we have to deal with is the immense stupidity of the wars that currently are in place. And here we are having to deal with wars of a sort that were better found in the history books devoted to the 20th century and ought not to have a place in the 21st,” said Zeid Ra’ad al Hussein, former United Nations Human Rights Commissioner.
How have the aid agencies coped?
“People tend to believe we can do things that we cannot do. We have no army. We have no weapons,” said Fabrizio Carboni, regional director for the Near and Middle East at the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).
How do they respond to critics who believe they should do more?
“If we could release them all we would do it as soon as possible. If we could visit them we would visit them. And at the same time it takes place in an environment which is Gaza,” added Carboni.
Why are we so quick to war, and so slow to peace?
“There’s a focus on the centrality of my pain, the pain my community feels and I feel, and I want the world to stand with me whoever I may be, and I demand it as a recognition of my suffering. But then the obvious question is, but how often do we, as individuals, side with others who are experiencing pain,” said al Hussein.
Join host Imogen Foulkes for this special episode of the Inside Geneva podcast.
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Host: Imogen Foulkes
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
This is Inside Geneva .
I'm your host, Imogen Foulkes,and this is a production from
Swissinfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's programme….
Speaker 3 (00:19):
A coordinated and unexpected attack, a breach in
Israel's security that itappears they simply didn't see
coming.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Khan Yunis in southern Gaza, now a target for
Israel's attacks.
Speaker 5 (00:38):
The grievances of the Palestinian people cannot
justify the appalling attacks byHamas, and those appalling
attacks cannot justify thecollective punishment of the
Palestinian people.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Palestinians in Gaza are facing the immediate
possibility of starvation.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
the UN said today what we have to deal with is the
immense stupidity of the warsthat currently are in place, and
here we are having to deal withwars of a sort that were better
found in the history booksdevoted to the 20th century and
ought not to have a place in the21st.
Speaker 7 (01:11):
Just moments ago, a convoy of the Red Cross bearing
13 Israelis and a number offoreigners crossed out of Gaza
and into Egypt on the way toIsrael.
Speaker 8 (01:20):
If we could release them all, we would do it as soon
as possible, we could visitthem, we would visit them.
And at the same time, it takesplace in an environment which is
Gaza, where, honestly, I'm notsure we take the full measure of
what's happening there.
Speaker 9 (01:36):
The Gaza health ministry says more than 40,000
Palestinians have been killedsince the October 7th Hamas
massacre in Israel thattriggered the war.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Scenes of war in Beirut.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
An attack so powerful that was seen and heard across
the city.
Lebanon now on the brink ofanother war.
Lebanon now on the brink ofanother war.
Hello and welcome to thisspecial episode of Inside Geneva
.
I'm Imogen Folks.
(02:15):
One year ago, israel wasbrutally attacked from Gaza by
Hamas.
The shock, suffering and traumawere immense and, as expected,
israel responded.
The 12 months since have seenterrible violence.
The death toll in Gaza is atleast 40,000, 17,000 of them
(02:36):
children.
Almost 100 Israelis are stillbeing held hostage.
Despite repeated calls by worldleaders for their release, for
a ceasefire and for access toGaza for aid agencies.
The conflict continues and isnow spreading to Lebanon.
Over the course of the last 12months, inside Geneva has
(03:02):
regularly discussed this war,the role of humanitarians, the
influence or otherwise of theUnited Nations and the growing
concerns over respect forinternational law.
In today's episode, we'llrevisit some of that coverage by
sharing again some of our keyinterviews and highlights.
We'll start with an in-depthinterview with former UN Human
(03:25):
Rights Commissioner, zaid RadalHussein, who I caught up with in
late October 2023 when he wasin town in a bitter irony for
Geneva Peace Week.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
What happened on the 7th of October needs to be
condemned.
I mean, the actions of Hamasresemble, as Yuval Harari said,
the Einsatzgruppen in 1941 inUkraine.
Willful execution of people,children and their families is
something that the Israelishaven't felt, not since the days
(04:02):
of the Holocaust, and so itstrikes them very deeply.
And from the Palestinian andArab side and much of the world,
the suffering of thePalestinian people has been a
never-ending story.
The occupation is not enforcedwith rose water and ice cream.
The occupation has, for 56years, been enforced by military
(04:28):
force.
The intimidation, the dailysuffering and indignities of the
Palestinians have gone on forso long and for them, what
they're seeing happen to theirfellow nationals in Gaza is
horrifying.
I don't think there can be anydoubt that there is collective
(04:52):
punishment, because when youswitch off the water and
medicines and essential foods tothe people 2.4 million people
how could it be otherwise?
This is not targeting of aparticular group, it's a
targeting.
It seems to be a targeting of apeople, and the Secretary
General was right to say what hesaid.
It's inevitable, given thedepth of the passions, that he
(05:15):
would be attacked, but so be it.
The UN has to say things asthey see them.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
We're in Geneva.
This is the home ofinternational humanitarian law,
the home of the GenevaConventions.
Surely, if there are people whocan remind warring parties of
what they should be doing,they're here.
And yet maybe they're trying,but nobody appears to be
listening.
I'm just wondering if you thinkthese standards are kind of
(05:48):
over.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Well, if they're over , then we have a world of
anarchy awaiting just around thecorner.
We will be pitched into a worldof panic and anarchy, and if
that's acceptable, then thatwill be what we're going to pay
for our inattention to the rules, if we've decided that all of
(06:11):
this is meaningless.
This is not a one-off.
This is now a pattern that hasdeveloped over time possibly 20
years where there's been willfulneglect of the rules and the
use of the veto, which is reallyquite corrosive because it
(06:31):
undermines the integrity of thevery establishment that's
supposed to, the veryinstitution that's supposed to
act collectively, and then,without there being any action,
the organization looksabsolutely helpless.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
You mentioned earlier this week the 1930s, with wars
between China and Japan, theSpanish Civil War, and you
mentioned that the League ofNations was powerless.
The League of Nations didn'tsurvive.
Are we looking at the end ofthe United Nations?
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Well, if we again, if we want a world that's utterly
anarchic, then I would say, well, that's, perhaps that may
happen, and we'd have to supposethat we don't want that.
You know, we don't want acollapsed world, because the
other side of that is immenselymore horrifying than where we
(07:22):
are now.
Immensely, we still havenuclear weapons about.
We're at the dawn of a newrevolution in AI.
What does that mean?
When it comes to biologicalweapons and other instruments of
war?
We have a world that's renegingon its commitments to human
(07:43):
rights in many respects.
I mean, if we want to plungeourselves into the abyss, we can
do it, of course.
It doesn't take muchintelligence to see, though,
that we will all suffer mostgrievously and millions of lives
will be lost, and whether wecan even survive it is a
question, so I don't think wehave much alternative.
I mean, what we have to dealwith is the immense stupidity of
(08:05):
the wars that currently are inplace, and the suffering and the
repression, occupation, and allof that has to be dealt with
quickly, because we do deal, andwe have to deal with also
existential threats which facethe planet in its totality, and
here we are having to deal withwars of a sort that were better
(08:27):
found in the history booksdevoted to the 20th century and
ought not to have a place in the21st, and diverting our
attention from these much orlet's say more existential
questions that affect ourexistence on this planet.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
People are very divided all over the world about
this Angry, upset, fearful.
Do you think this polarisationis making a wider conflict more
likely?
This lack of understanding?
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Yes, I do think that's the case.
The pain being felt on allsides is very real.
The pain the Israelis feel fortheir loss on the 7th of October
is very real and it's veryevident, and the anger is
palpable.
And likewise on the Palestinianand also on the Arab side.
(09:23):
The pain is very, almosttactile, you can almost sense it
.
And the sadness, I think, isthat there's a focus on the
centrality of my pain, the painmy community feels and I feel,
and I want the world to standwith me, whoever I may be, and I
demand it as a recognition ofmy suffering.
(09:45):
But then the obvious questionis but how often do we as
individuals side with others whoare experiencing pain?
How often do we see massivedemonstrations in the Middle
East for the people of Xinjiangor you can make the argument you
know people in Tigray sufferand where there are mass
demonstrations in Israel forthem?
(10:06):
In other words, we'vecompartmentalized these issues
to such an extent.
And then there's a veryintimate relationship we have
with our own pain and the needto have others support us.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Zayd Rad Al-Hussein there with a wise reminder of
our shared humanity and ourshared pain.
Now, before we go to our nextin-depth interview, here are
some highlights of other InsideGeneva episodes that looked at
(10:43):
the conflict in the Middle East.
In January of this year, wediscussed the case at the UN's
top court, the InternationalCourt of Justice, in which South
Africa claimed Israel, in itsactions in Gaza, could be
committing genocide.
Speaker 10 (10:59):
Palestinians in Gaza are subjected to relentless
bombing.
They are killed in their homes,in places where they seek
shelter in hospitals, in schools, in mosques, in churches and as
they try to find food and waterfor their families.
Speaker 5 (11:18):
What Israel seeks by operating in Gaza is not to
destroy a people, but to protecta people, its people.
In these circumstances, therecan hardly be a charge more
false and more malevolent thanthe allegation against Israel of
genocide.
Speaker 6 (11:37):
This is a case about asserting humanity and, in fact,
asserting law over war.
The purpose of the UN is toprevent disputes from turning
into armed conflict, and the ICJ, the International Court of
Justice, is there to helpresolve disputes and to prevent
(11:58):
war.
Speaker 7 (12:00):
People feel like if you don't call it genocide, then
it's not serious, and that's amistake.
Crimes against humanity areincredibly severe.
Speaker 6 (12:08):
There's not a UN police force running around
making sure that states complywith their international law
obligations.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
In March, we talked to humanitarian leaders, Israeli
diplomats and human rightsgroups about the role of UNRWA,
the UN's Agency for PalestinianRefugees.
Speaker 9 (12:30):
Amid Israeli claims, workers for the agency were
involved in the October 7thattacks the only lifeline in a
region full of despair, a regionwhich now deserves that we
collectively look at promoting aproper, genuine peace for
(12:52):
political solution.
I think that there have to bealternatives to UNRWA in Gaza.
Israel will not continueworking with.
Speaker 7 (13:00):
UNRWA in Gaza, we are not.
A long-running complaint isthat UNRWA, by its very nature
and its very mandate, keeps therefugee issue alive, issues like
the right of return forPalestinian refugees who left
after 1948 and the founding ofthe State of Israel.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
All of the non-governmental organizations,
all of the Red Cross, RedCrescent organizations, all of
the UN agencies combined werenot even half of what UNRWA is.
We have more dead children inGaza in these four or five
months than in all other armedconflict combined worldwide in
(13:47):
the same period for Geneva, Iwould say voice from Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
There's this definite feeling of anger and of
abandonment by the internationalhumanitarian community over
there and in April we sat downwith Chris Black, cameraman for
the World Health Organization,on his return from a WHO mission
to support Gaza's hospitals.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
That's something I really will never forget is a
woman with her young childsaying to me are we safe here?
And I wanted to say to heryou're in the grounds of a
hospital.
Under internationalhumanitarian law, this is a
protected space.
You should be safe here.
But I couldn't say to heryou're safe here.
People have told me oh, youmust be very brave for going to
(14:30):
Gaza.
And I don't think so.
I think what's brave is thatthe people have been doing this
work since early October and whogo back every day to do it
again and again, and again youcan find all those episodes in
full wherever you get yourpodcasts Now.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
listeners who have followed this conflict over the
past 12 months will know thatboth the UN and the
International Committee of theRed Cross have come in for a
good deal of criticism inrelation to the war in Gaza.
That's one of the reasons hereon Inside Geneva that we've
tried to go deeper into the workof the humanitarian agencies
(15:13):
and give them a chance toexplain what they do in more
detail.
Speaker 6 (15:17):
In.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
November of last year , israel and Hamas agreed
complex terms for the release ofdozens of Israeli hostages, and
it was the ICRC who went intoGaza, retrieved them and
returned them home.
But despite that work, some inIsrael have asked why the ICRC
hasn't done more, in particular,why it hasn't managed to visit
(15:41):
the hostages who are still incaptivity.
Late last year, while thehostage releases were still
ongoing, I talked to FabrizioCarboni, then the ICRC's
Director for the Middle East,and, just as context, the ICRC
has worked in Israel and theoccupied territories for decades
, so it knows the region andthis long conflict very well.
(16:05):
Fabrizio began by describinghis work immediately after the
attacks on October 7.
Speaker 8 (16:12):
If I look at the first days of this conflict, it
was just.
I've never experienced thisintensity, the permanent state
of emergency, the chaos.
After a couple of hours, weknew what would happen.
We knew that there would be amilitary reaction.
(16:35):
We thought about the people whowere taken hostages.
We knew that our colleagues inGaza would be impacted by this
conflict and this is probablyone of the sad things is that
all the things which arehappening now, we knew it after
a couple of hours, after thisawful attack in Israel.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
There's been a lot of focus on the ICRC.
Could you explain to peoplekind of exactly what you do in
an operation like this, becausea lot of people have asked me?
Nobody is quite clear exactlykind of how it works.
Speaker 8 (17:14):
I think the ICRC does a lot of things situation of
conflict and we do thetraditional UMITAN work, you
know, providing assistance,medical help, water I mean the
classic.
And then there is reallysomething very specific to the
ICRC, which is our capacity tobuild a relationship of trust
(17:36):
with all parties into a conflict.
And this relationship of trustis based on the fact that we
don't need to like them, wedon't need to agree with them,
we just need to agree that we'rehere only for a humanitarian
objective and often a veryhumble humanitarian objective,
and that we will be, in thisenvironment, neutral.
(17:58):
We won't comment on thepolitical situation, we won't
take sides on the reason whypeople are fighting.
Do they have the right or notto use force?
We won't go into this.
And so we built thisrelationship, this trust, and
that's what allows us, whenthere is a release of hostages,
to be on the battlefield, to getout in the middle of the night,
(18:21):
go to a secret place, receivehostages and at the same time,
make sure that hundreds ofkilometers from there, the same
thing happens pretty much at thesame time, and in this case
with Palestinian detainees.
So I would say, on one hand,it's something which from the
(18:42):
outside might look as logistic,but actually to do that with
parties who don't trust eachother, who actually want to kill
each other in a battlefield, insituation of conflict, and be
this third party all party trust, this is extremely difficult.
(19:02):
You don't do that overnight.
You build this and you buildthis through your action.
It's not enough to speak or tocommunicate, and I really
understand that.
From the outside it's, on onehand, not enough, but once you
know the inside, once you knowhow difficult it is, you really
value this very humble butcomplex and difficult work,
(19:26):
which is the work of a neutralintermediary in a situation of
extremely polarized conflict.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
There's been some criticism, particularly from
Israel, that you didn't orcouldn't actually visit these
hostages.
Speaker 8 (19:41):
Yeah, Look when families are telling us this.
I really take it.
I really take it.
I understand ICSE, red Cross.
We have history, we're presentin many conflicts, we have staff
doing unbelievable jobs allaround the world and in this
(20:02):
kind of situation, where it'ssometimes desperate, we're
probably to some extent victimof our image, victim of a sort
of success, and people tend tobelieve that we can do things
which actually we can't.
I mean, we have no army, wehave no weapons, there is no
(20:24):
even a political weight thatcould force parties to do
something they don't want to do.
The only thing we have is ourcapacity to be consistent, to
engage with everybody, to talkto them in private, but also
publicly publicly.
And if we go back now to thesituation of the hostages, after
(20:46):
a couple of hours we werealready very clear that it was
illegal, that people needed tobe released immediately, that we
were available to visit peoplewherever they were and that we
demand proof of life.
Now the specificity of Gaza it'sa battlefield.
Normally the work we do visitdetainees or collecting proof of
(21:07):
life, red Cross messages.
In my career I never did thison the battlefield.
You know, often detainees orhostages are held in the back,
but here it's in the battlefield, it's bombing while it's
fighting and most probably, thedetainees, the hostages, are
there.
So there is one parties don'twant to give us access and two,
(21:29):
there is the security risk.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
But I mean just to be clear.
You did not know where theywere and you didn't get
permission to visit them.
Speaker 8 (21:36):
No, now I mean something which needs to be
clear.
We cover our work is covered byconfidentiality, and this is
part of the trust we build withparties is that whatever we
would see in the place ofdetention, on the condition of
detention, on the condition inwhich hostages are held, we
(21:57):
would not share it publicly.
We would do whatever we can toimprove the condition, to make
sure that they are well treated.
We will demand that thehostages, oh detainees, all
improve the condition to makesure that they are well treated.
We will demand that thehostages or detainees all around
the world are allowed to writemessages to their loved ones,
but we would not share what wesee, because if we do that, we
simply don't have access andit's a catch-22.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
When the first group of Israeli hostages were
released, you put out astatement on social media.
There was a lot of reaction toit.
I'm just going to read you acouple of them now, from Israel,
saying don't you dare takecredit for this.
You did nothing, you're justtaxi drivers.
(22:41):
How does that make you feel?
Speaker 8 (22:44):
Personally it's okay.
I mean, I'm fine with this.
You know, I did enjoy the ICICIto increase the number of
followers on social media andwe're not a communication
organization.
At the end of the day, you know, I think, working for the ICIC,
you need to accept that noteverybody will know your work,
(23:06):
not everybody will understandyour work, not everybody will
appreciate your work.
I think, in my experience, whenpeople see what we do, not
through television, but whenthey personally benefit from
what we do as a detainee, as ahostage, often it changed their
(23:26):
perspective.
So coming back to thisunpleasant remark, fine, I'm sad
for my staff, I'm sad for thecolleagues.
You know the colleagues whodoing this.
They are the colleagues who arein gaza.
You know, three days ago we hadagain a colleague killed with
his family.
All of them were displaced.
(23:47):
They've lost many their houses.
Many live in substandardshelter.
Many are Palestinians.
Nevertheless, they go for itevery morning.
If they need to do something towork for the release of
hostages, for prisoners, forwhoever, they'll do it.
(24:07):
So personally, I'm okay withthis kind of remarks, but deep
inside I'm a bit sad for mycolleagues who, regardless of
the nationality, the religion,the colour of the skin, would go
the extra mile, would put theirown life at risk.
And then I read such a commentyeah, it's a pity.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
What about this claim ?
We keep hearing all the timethat hospitals are being used
for military purposes.
Speaker 8 (24:37):
Look, I think our communication was always very
clear.
Medical staff and medicalinfrastructure need to be
protected, and when we say, inthe ICICI, protected, it means
two things it means that itcannot be used as a military
base and cannot be targeted, andif it loses its protection
because used as a military base,force needs to be used with
precaution and withproportionality.
(24:59):
Now, when it comes to all thehospitals, I don't have an
answer for each and every one ofthem.
What I can guarantee you isthat, within confidential
dialogue we have with allparties, we've been clear about
what we know and what theyshould do.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Can I just ask you what you're hearing about
conditions in northern Gaza fromyour colleagues?
Speaker 8 (25:20):
You know we send in Gaza our best staff, you know
the most experienced staff, andthey were really affected by
what they saw.
We also sent our surgical teamand our surgical team is not in
the north, it's still in thesouth and again, icrc surgeon,
icrc medical staff, I meanthey've seen a lot.
They really have seen a lot.
(25:41):
They've been in Afghanistan,they've been in Sudan.
They've seen a lot.
They really have seen a lot.
They've been in Afghanistan,they've been in Sudan, they've
been on the front line in Yemen.
But there in Gaza it's tough,it's really tough.
The number of wounded isenormous because of the nature
of the violence A lot of burns,a lot of kids.
I think because of the natureof Gaza, this close place,
(26:03):
densely populated, highlyurbanized.
I mean the nature of theviolence used, the nature of the
conflict.
It has a devastating impact onthe civilian population.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
You were hoping to facilitate releases of hostages.
Speaker 8 (26:20):
Yes, obviously we hope If we could release them
all, we would do it as soon aspossible.
We could visit them.
We would visit them.
And at the same time, it takesplace in an environment which is
Gaza, where, honestly, I'm notsure we take the full measure of
what's happening there.
Really, not it's this lastround of violence, but it's 15,
(26:44):
16 years, but several rounds ofviolence.
And then there is the today and, as you might tell, we can't
help ourselves to say okay.
And then you know, in a way oranother, at one stage violence
will stop.
Tomorrow, after tomorrow, later, but it will happen.
(27:04):
But what will be left?
And when I say what will beleft is physically and
emotionally.
I mean the trauma most of thepeople living in Gaza are going
through.
I don't know how you recoverthis.
You know you can't leave thisplace.
So it means, when they arebombing, when there is fighting,
just there, hoping that yourneighbor is not a target, hoping
(27:27):
that you're not next to amilitary target, and then you
wait.
I mean I don't know if you canimagine what it means
psychologically.
It's really tough.
And also, in this crisis crisisit's not about one is suffering
more than the other, because Ifound it just despicable, this
(27:48):
kind of mindset.
So I can say in the samesentence that I care about the
families of the people who aretaken hostages, I care about the
civilians who have been killed,I care about the civilians in
Israel who regularly have to goin the basement, and I also care
(28:09):
about the Palestinians.
One does not exclude the otherand we're not comparing, we're
not doing accounting, and it'sreally hard to pass this message
.
It's really hard for us as ICRCto say you know, it's possible
to care about all of themwithout putting a hierarchy in
suffering, and it's a messagewhich is really, really hard.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
CRC Director for the Middle East, reminding us that
there is no hierarchy of humansuffering, a thought that is,
I'm sure, hard to hold on towhen you have lost a loved one
(28:55):
or a home or both, but still athought we should keep in mind.
That's it for this edition ofInside Geneva.
A reminder you can hear all ourcoverage of the conflict in the
Middle East wherever you getyour podcasts, and you can
review them or even send us anemail with your comments to
insidegeneva at swissinfoch Nextweek.
(29:29):
We're back to our regularschedule with a round table on
the upcoming presidentialelections in the us.
What could they mean formultilateralism, support for
humanitarian work and respectfor international law?
And how much influence doesdoes the US, whoever is in the
White House actually have thesedays?
Join us on October 14th.
For that I'm Imogen Folks,thank you.
This is Inside Geneva .
I'm your host, Imogen Foulkes,and this is a production from
Swissinfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's programme….
Speaker 3 (00:19):
A coordinated and unexpected attack, a breach in
Israel's security that itappears they simply didn't see
coming.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Khan Yunis in southern Gaza, now a target for
Israel's attacks.
Speaker 5 (00:38):
The grievances of the Palestinian people cannot
justify the appalling attacks byHamas, and those appalling
attacks cannot justify thecollective punishment of the
Palestinian people.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Palestinians in Gaza are facing the immediate
possibility of starvation.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
the UN said today what we have to deal with is the
immense stupidity of the warsthat currently are in place, and
here we are having to deal withwars of a sort that were better
found in the history booksdevoted to the 20th century and
ought not to have a place in the21st.
Speaker 7 (01:11):
Just moments ago, a convoy of the Red Cross bearing
13 Israelis and a number offoreigners crossed out of Gaza
and into Egypt on the way toIsrael.
Speaker 8 (01:20):
If we could release them all, we would do it as soon
as possible, we could visitthem, we would visit them.
And at the same time, it takesplace in an environment which is
Gaza, where, honestly, I'm notsure we take the full measure of
what's happening there.
Speaker 9 (01:36):
The Gaza health ministry says more than 40,000
Palestinians have been killedsince the October 7th Hamas
massacre in Israel thattriggered the war.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Scenes of war in Beirut.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
An attack so powerful that was seen and heard across
the city.
Lebanon now on the brink ofanother war.
Lebanon now on the brink ofanother war.
Hello and welcome to thisspecial episode of Inside Geneva
.
I'm Imogen Folks.
(02:15):
One year ago, israel wasbrutally attacked from Gaza by
Hamas.
The shock, suffering and traumawere immense and, as expected,
israel responded.
The 12 months since have seenterrible violence.
The death toll in Gaza is atleast 40,000, 17,000 of them
(02:36):
children.
Almost 100 Israelis are stillbeing held hostage.
Despite repeated calls by worldleaders for their release, for
a ceasefire and for access toGaza for aid agencies.
The conflict continues and isnow spreading to Lebanon.
Over the course of the last 12months, inside Geneva has
(03:02):
regularly discussed this war,the role of humanitarians, the
influence or otherwise of theUnited Nations and the growing
concerns over respect forinternational law.
In today's episode, we'llrevisit some of that coverage by
sharing again some of our keyinterviews and highlights.
We'll start with an in-depthinterview with former UN Human
(03:25):
Rights Commissioner, zaid RadalHussein, who I caught up with in
late October 2023 when he wasin town in a bitter irony for
Geneva Peace Week.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
What happened on the 7th of October needs to be
condemned.
I mean, the actions of Hamasresemble, as Yuval Harari said,
the Einsatzgruppen in 1941 inUkraine.
Willful execution of people,children and their families is
something that the Israelishaven't felt, not since the days
(04:02):
of the Holocaust, and so itstrikes them very deeply.
And from the Palestinian andArab side and much of the world,
the suffering of thePalestinian people has been a
never-ending story.
The occupation is not enforcedwith rose water and ice cream.
The occupation has, for 56years, been enforced by military
(04:28):
force.
The intimidation, the dailysuffering and indignities of the
Palestinians have gone on forso long and for them, what
they're seeing happen to theirfellow nationals in Gaza is
horrifying.
I don't think there can be anydoubt that there is collective
(04:52):
punishment, because when youswitch off the water and
medicines and essential foods tothe people 2.4 million people
how could it be otherwise?
This is not targeting of aparticular group, it's a
targeting.
It seems to be a targeting of apeople, and the Secretary
General was right to say what hesaid.
It's inevitable, given thedepth of the passions, that he
(05:15):
would be attacked, but so be it.
The UN has to say things asthey see them.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
We're in Geneva.
This is the home ofinternational humanitarian law,
the home of the GenevaConventions.
Surely, if there are people whocan remind warring parties of
what they should be doing,they're here.
And yet maybe they're trying,but nobody appears to be
listening.
I'm just wondering if you thinkthese standards are kind of
(05:48):
over.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Well, if they're over , then we have a world of
anarchy awaiting just around thecorner.
We will be pitched into a worldof panic and anarchy, and if
that's acceptable, then thatwill be what we're going to pay
for our inattention to the rules, if we've decided that all of
(06:11):
this is meaningless.
This is not a one-off.
This is now a pattern that hasdeveloped over time possibly 20
years where there's been willfulneglect of the rules and the
use of the veto, which is reallyquite corrosive because it
(06:31):
undermines the integrity of thevery establishment that's
supposed to, the veryinstitution that's supposed to
act collectively, and then,without there being any action,
the organization looksabsolutely helpless.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
You mentioned earlier this week the 1930s, with wars
between China and Japan, theSpanish Civil War, and you
mentioned that the League ofNations was powerless.
The League of Nations didn'tsurvive.
Are we looking at the end ofthe United Nations?
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Well, if we again, if we want a world that's utterly
anarchic, then I would say, well, that's, perhaps that may
happen, and we'd have to supposethat we don't want that.
You know, we don't want acollapsed world, because the
other side of that is immenselymore horrifying than where we
(07:22):
are now.
Immensely, we still havenuclear weapons about.
We're at the dawn of a newrevolution in AI.
What does that mean?
When it comes to biologicalweapons and other instruments of
war?
We have a world that's renegingon its commitments to human
(07:43):
rights in many respects.
I mean, if we want to plungeourselves into the abyss, we can
do it, of course.
It doesn't take muchintelligence to see, though,
that we will all suffer mostgrievously and millions of lives
will be lost, and whether wecan even survive it is a
question, so I don't think wehave much alternative.
I mean, what we have to dealwith is the immense stupidity of
(08:05):
the wars that currently are inplace, and the suffering and the
repression, occupation, and allof that has to be dealt with
quickly, because we do deal, andwe have to deal with also
existential threats which facethe planet in its totality, and
here we are having to deal withwars of a sort that were better
(08:27):
found in the history booksdevoted to the 20th century and
ought not to have a place in the21st, and diverting our
attention from these much orlet's say more existential
questions that affect ourexistence on this planet.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
People are very divided all over the world about
this Angry, upset, fearful.
Do you think this polarisationis making a wider conflict more
likely?
This lack of understanding?
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Yes, I do think that's the case.
The pain being felt on allsides is very real.
The pain the Israelis feel fortheir loss on the 7th of October
is very real and it's veryevident, and the anger is
palpable.
And likewise on the Palestinianand also on the Arab side.
(09:23):
The pain is very, almosttactile, you can almost sense it
.
And the sadness, I think, isthat there's a focus on the
centrality of my pain, the painmy community feels and I feel,
and I want the world to standwith me, whoever I may be, and I
demand it as a recognition ofmy suffering.
(09:45):
But then the obvious questionis but how often do we as
individuals side with others whoare experiencing pain?
How often do we see massivedemonstrations in the Middle
East for the people of Xinjiangor you can make the argument you
know people in Tigray sufferand where there are mass
demonstrations in Israel forthem?
(10:06):
In other words, we'vecompartmentalized these issues
to such an extent.
And then there's a veryintimate relationship we have
with our own pain and the needto have others support us.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Zayd Rad Al-Hussein there with a wise reminder of
our shared humanity and ourshared pain.
Now, before we go to our nextin-depth interview, here are
some highlights of other InsideGeneva episodes that looked at
(10:43):
the conflict in the Middle East.
In January of this year, wediscussed the case at the UN's
top court, the InternationalCourt of Justice, in which South
Africa claimed Israel, in itsactions in Gaza, could be
committing genocide.
Speaker 10 (10:59):
Palestinians in Gaza are subjected to relentless
bombing.
They are killed in their homes,in places where they seek
shelter in hospitals, in schools, in mosques, in churches and as
they try to find food and waterfor their families.
Speaker 5 (11:18):
What Israel seeks by operating in Gaza is not to
destroy a people, but to protecta people, its people.
In these circumstances, therecan hardly be a charge more
false and more malevolent thanthe allegation against Israel of
genocide.
Speaker 6 (11:37):
This is a case about asserting humanity and, in fact,
asserting law over war.
The purpose of the UN is toprevent disputes from turning
into armed conflict, and the ICJ, the International Court of
Justice, is there to helpresolve disputes and to prevent
(11:58):
war.
Speaker 7 (12:00):
People feel like if you don't call it genocide, then
it's not serious, and that's amistake.
Crimes against humanity areincredibly severe.
Speaker 6 (12:08):
There's not a UN police force running around
making sure that states complywith their international law
obligations.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
In March, we talked to humanitarian leaders, Israeli
diplomats and human rightsgroups about the role of UNRWA,
the UN's Agency for PalestinianRefugees.
Speaker 9 (12:30):
Amid Israeli claims, workers for the agency were
involved in the October 7thattacks the only lifeline in a
region full of despair, a regionwhich now deserves that we
collectively look at promoting aproper, genuine peace for
(12:52):
political solution.
I think that there have to bealternatives to UNRWA in Gaza.
Israel will not continueworking with.
Speaker 7 (13:00):
UNRWA in Gaza, we are not.
A long-running complaint isthat UNRWA, by its very nature
and its very mandate, keeps therefugee issue alive, issues like
the right of return forPalestinian refugees who left
after 1948 and the founding ofthe State of Israel.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
All of the non-governmental organizations,
all of the Red Cross, RedCrescent organizations, all of
the UN agencies combined werenot even half of what UNRWA is.
We have more dead children inGaza in these four or five
months than in all other armedconflict combined worldwide in
(13:47):
the same period for Geneva, Iwould say voice from Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
There's this definite feeling of anger and of
abandonment by the internationalhumanitarian community over
there and in April we sat downwith Chris Black, cameraman for
the World Health Organization,on his return from a WHO mission
to support Gaza's hospitals.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
That's something I really will never forget is a
woman with her young childsaying to me are we safe here?
And I wanted to say to heryou're in the grounds of a
hospital.
Under internationalhumanitarian law, this is a
protected space.
You should be safe here.
But I couldn't say to heryou're safe here.
People have told me oh, youmust be very brave for going to
(14:30):
Gaza.
And I don't think so.
I think what's brave is thatthe people have been doing this
work since early October and whogo back every day to do it
again and again, and again youcan find all those episodes in
full wherever you get yourpodcasts Now.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
listeners who have followed this conflict over the
past 12 months will know thatboth the UN and the
International Committee of theRed Cross have come in for a
good deal of criticism inrelation to the war in Gaza.
That's one of the reasons hereon Inside Geneva that we've
tried to go deeper into the workof the humanitarian agencies
(15:13):
and give them a chance toexplain what they do in more
detail.
Speaker 6 (15:17):
In.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
November of last year , israel and Hamas agreed
complex terms for the release ofdozens of Israeli hostages, and
it was the ICRC who went intoGaza, retrieved them and
returned them home.
But despite that work, some inIsrael have asked why the ICRC
hasn't done more, in particular,why it hasn't managed to visit
(15:41):
the hostages who are still incaptivity.
Late last year, while thehostage releases were still
ongoing, I talked to FabrizioCarboni, then the ICRC's
Director for the Middle East,and, just as context, the ICRC
has worked in Israel and theoccupied territories for decades
, so it knows the region andthis long conflict very well.
(16:05):
Fabrizio began by describinghis work immediately after the
attacks on October 7.
Speaker 8 (16:12):
If I look at the first days of this conflict, it
was just.
I've never experienced thisintensity, the permanent state
of emergency, the chaos.
After a couple of hours, weknew what would happen.
We knew that there would be amilitary reaction.
(16:35):
We thought about the people whowere taken hostages.
We knew that our colleagues inGaza would be impacted by this
conflict and this is probablyone of the sad things is that
all the things which arehappening now, we knew it after
a couple of hours, after thisawful attack in Israel.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
There's been a lot of focus on the ICRC.
Could you explain to peoplekind of exactly what you do in
an operation like this, becausea lot of people have asked me?
Nobody is quite clear exactlykind of how it works.
Speaker 8 (17:14):
I think the ICRC does a lot of things situation of
conflict and we do thetraditional UMITAN work, you
know, providing assistance,medical help, water I mean the
classic.
And then there is reallysomething very specific to the
ICRC, which is our capacity tobuild a relationship of trust
(17:36):
with all parties into a conflict.
And this relationship of trustis based on the fact that we
don't need to like them, wedon't need to agree with them,
we just need to agree that we'rehere only for a humanitarian
objective and often a veryhumble humanitarian objective,
and that we will be, in thisenvironment, neutral.
(17:58):
We won't comment on thepolitical situation, we won't
take sides on the reason whypeople are fighting.
Do they have the right or notto use force?
We won't go into this.
And so we built thisrelationship, this trust, and
that's what allows us, whenthere is a release of hostages,
to be on the battlefield, to getout in the middle of the night,
(18:21):
go to a secret place, receivehostages and at the same time,
make sure that hundreds ofkilometers from there, the same
thing happens pretty much at thesame time, and in this case
with Palestinian detainees.
So I would say, on one hand,it's something which from the
(18:42):
outside might look as logistic,but actually to do that with
parties who don't trust eachother, who actually want to kill
each other in a battlefield, insituation of conflict, and be
this third party all party trust, this is extremely difficult.
(19:02):
You don't do that overnight.
You build this and you buildthis through your action.
It's not enough to speak or tocommunicate, and I really
understand that.
From the outside it's, on onehand, not enough, but once you
know the inside, once you knowhow difficult it is, you really
value this very humble butcomplex and difficult work,
(19:26):
which is the work of a neutralintermediary in a situation of
extremely polarized conflict.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
There's been some criticism, particularly from
Israel, that you didn't orcouldn't actually visit these
hostages.
Speaker 8 (19:41):
Yeah, Look when families are telling us this.
I really take it.
I really take it.
I understand ICSE, red Cross.
We have history, we're presentin many conflicts, we have staff
doing unbelievable jobs allaround the world and in this
(20:02):
kind of situation, where it'ssometimes desperate, we're
probably to some extent victimof our image, victim of a sort
of success, and people tend tobelieve that we can do things
which actually we can't.
I mean, we have no army, wehave no weapons, there is no
(20:24):
even a political weight thatcould force parties to do
something they don't want to do.
The only thing we have is ourcapacity to be consistent, to
engage with everybody, to talkto them in private, but also
publicly publicly.
And if we go back now to thesituation of the hostages, after
(20:46):
a couple of hours we werealready very clear that it was
illegal, that people needed tobe released immediately, that we
were available to visit peoplewherever they were and that we
demand proof of life.
Now the specificity of Gaza it'sa battlefield.
Normally the work we do visitdetainees or collecting proof of
(21:07):
life, red Cross messages.
In my career I never did thison the battlefield.
You know, often detainees orhostages are held in the back,
but here it's in the battlefield, it's bombing while it's
fighting and most probably, thedetainees, the hostages, are
there.
So there is one parties don'twant to give us access and two,
(21:29):
there is the security risk.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
But I mean just to be clear.
You did not know where theywere and you didn't get
permission to visit them.
Speaker 8 (21:36):
No, now I mean something which needs to be
clear.
We cover our work is covered byconfidentiality, and this is
part of the trust we build withparties is that whatever we
would see in the place ofdetention, on the condition of
detention, on the condition inwhich hostages are held, we
(21:57):
would not share it publicly.
We would do whatever we can toimprove the condition, to make
sure that they are well treated.
We will demand that thehostages, oh detainees, all
improve the condition to makesure that they are well treated.
We will demand that thehostages or detainees all around
the world are allowed to writemessages to their loved ones,
but we would not share what wesee, because if we do that, we
simply don't have access andit's a catch-22.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
When the first group of Israeli hostages were
released, you put out astatement on social media.
There was a lot of reaction toit.
I'm just going to read you acouple of them now, from Israel,
saying don't you dare takecredit for this.
You did nothing, you're justtaxi drivers.
(22:41):
How does that make you feel?
Speaker 8 (22:44):
Personally it's okay.
I mean, I'm fine with this.
You know, I did enjoy the ICICIto increase the number of
followers on social media andwe're not a communication
organization.
At the end of the day, you know, I think, working for the ICIC,
you need to accept that noteverybody will know your work,
(23:06):
not everybody will understandyour work, not everybody will
appreciate your work.
I think, in my experience, whenpeople see what we do, not
through television, but whenthey personally benefit from
what we do as a detainee, as ahostage, often it changed their
(23:26):
perspective.
So coming back to thisunpleasant remark, fine, I'm sad
for my staff, I'm sad for thecolleagues.
You know the colleagues whodoing this.
They are the colleagues who arein gaza.
You know, three days ago we hadagain a colleague killed with
his family.
All of them were displaced.
(23:47):
They've lost many their houses.
Many live in substandardshelter.
Many are Palestinians.
Nevertheless, they go for itevery morning.
If they need to do something towork for the release of
hostages, for prisoners, forwhoever, they'll do it.
(24:07):
So personally, I'm okay withthis kind of remarks, but deep
inside I'm a bit sad for mycolleagues who, regardless of
the nationality, the religion,the colour of the skin, would go
the extra mile, would put theirown life at risk.
And then I read such a commentyeah, it's a pity.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
What about this claim ?
We keep hearing all the timethat hospitals are being used
for military purposes.
Speaker 8 (24:37):
Look, I think our communication was always very
clear.
Medical staff and medicalinfrastructure need to be
protected, and when we say, inthe ICICI, protected, it means
two things it means that itcannot be used as a military
base and cannot be targeted, andif it loses its protection
because used as a military base,force needs to be used with
precaution and withproportionality.
(24:59):
Now, when it comes to all thehospitals, I don't have an
answer for each and every one ofthem.
What I can guarantee you isthat, within confidential
dialogue we have with allparties, we've been clear about
what we know and what theyshould do.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Can I just ask you what you're hearing about
conditions in northern Gaza fromyour colleagues?
Speaker 8 (25:20):
You know we send in Gaza our best staff, you know
the most experienced staff, andthey were really affected by
what they saw.
We also sent our surgical teamand our surgical team is not in
the north, it's still in thesouth and again, icrc surgeon,
icrc medical staff, I meanthey've seen a lot.
They really have seen a lot.
(25:41):
They've been in Afghanistan,they've been in Sudan.
They've seen a lot.
They really have seen a lot.
They've been in Afghanistan,they've been in Sudan, they've
been on the front line in Yemen.
But there in Gaza it's tough,it's really tough.
The number of wounded isenormous because of the nature
of the violence A lot of burns,a lot of kids.
I think because of the natureof Gaza, this close place,
(26:03):
densely populated, highlyurbanized.
I mean the nature of theviolence used, the nature of the
conflict.
It has a devastating impact onthe civilian population.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
You were hoping to facilitate releases of hostages.
Speaker 8 (26:20):
Yes, obviously we hope If we could release them
all, we would do it as soon aspossible.
We could visit them.
We would visit them.
And at the same time, it takesplace in an environment which is
Gaza, where, honestly, I'm notsure we take the full measure of
what's happening there.
Really, not it's this lastround of violence, but it's 15,
(26:44):
16 years, but several rounds ofviolence.
And then there is the today and, as you might tell, we can't
help ourselves to say okay.
And then you know, in a way oranother, at one stage violence
will stop.
Tomorrow, after tomorrow, later, but it will happen.
(27:04):
But what will be left?
And when I say what will beleft is physically and
emotionally.
I mean the trauma most of thepeople living in Gaza are going
through.
I don't know how you recoverthis.
You know you can't leave thisplace.
So it means, when they arebombing, when there is fighting,
just there, hoping that yourneighbor is not a target, hoping
(27:27):
that you're not next to amilitary target, and then you
wait.
I mean I don't know if you canimagine what it means
psychologically.
It's really tough.
And also, in this crisis crisisit's not about one is suffering
more than the other, because Ifound it just despicable, this
(27:48):
kind of mindset.
So I can say in the samesentence that I care about the
families of the people who aretaken hostages, I care about the
civilians who have been killed,I care about the civilians in
Israel who regularly have to goin the basement, and I also care
(28:09):
about the Palestinians.
One does not exclude the otherand we're not comparing, we're
not doing accounting, and it'sreally hard to pass this message
.
It's really hard for us as ICRCto say you know, it's possible
to care about all of themwithout putting a hierarchy in
suffering, and it's a messagewhich is really, really hard.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
CRC Director for the Middle East, reminding us that
there is no hierarchy of humansuffering, a thought that is,
I'm sure, hard to hold on towhen you have lost a loved one
(28:55):
or a home or both, but still athought we should keep in mind.
That's it for this edition ofInside Geneva.
A reminder you can hear all ourcoverage of the conflict in the
Middle East wherever you getyour podcasts, and you can
review them or even send us anemail with your comments to
insidegeneva at swissinfoch Nextweek.
(29:29):
We're back to our regularschedule with a round table on
the upcoming presidentialelections in the us.
What could they mean formultilateralism, support for
humanitarian work and respectfor international law?
And how much influence doesdoes the US, whoever is in the
White House actually have thesedays?
Join us on October 14th.
For that I'm Imogen Folks,thank you.
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