December 15, 2025 • 33 mins
What do submarines, aircraft and even theme park rides have in common?
They all rely on Non-Destructive Testing (NDT) to ensure safety and reliability.
In this episode of Inside IALR, host Caleb Ayers talks with Phil Bowers, NDT instructor for the Accelerated Training in Defense Manufacturing (ATDM) program, and Michael Donnelly, NDT manager with Industrial Inspection & Analysis at the Center for Manufacturing Advancement. Together, they unpack the fascinating history of NDT — from its origins in the railroad era to its role in modern defense manufacturing — and explore the science behind methods like ultrasonic testing, X-ray imaging and eddy current inspection.
Plus, find out why NDT careers are in high demand and how technology like AI and robotics is shaping the next generation of inspections.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Phil Bowers (00:00):
So once something fails, then er then it's always,
you know, it's always the NDTperson.
But up to that point, nobodyreally knows what we do.
We're kind of like the ghostwho sits in the background to
make sure that nothing fails.
And so until something goescatastrophic, nobody knows who
we are or what we do.
And so it kind of ke creates amystery behind it.
Caleb Ayers (00:30):
Welcome to another episode of Inside IALR.
Thanks for being here today.
So today we're here to talkabout non-destructive testing,
which, as I say when I givetours, is exactly what it sounds
like, and we'll get into moreof the specifics of what that
means.
But essentially,non-destructive testing, you are
testing something withoutdestroying it.
So they they named that fieldvery well.
So I have two guests with metoday, and I'll let them
(00:52):
introduce themselves real quick.
Michael Donnelly (00:56):
My name is Michael Donnelly.
I'm the NDT manager at theCenter for Manufacturing
Advancement working forindustrial inspection and
analysis.
Phil Bowers (01:04):
So I gave my uh layman's understanding of
non-destructive testing upfront.
I want you guys to give me your20-second pitch to someone who
has no clue what NDT is that yougive, and then and then break
it down further for when you'retalking to smart people that
know what you're talking about.
So I spiel for students whodon't actually know anything
(01:26):
about it, and it's the firsttime ever coming to the
understanding of what it means,is a way to evaluate materials
in such a manner that you canjust inspect anything, right?
So roller coasters, bridges,roads, vehicles, you name it, if
it attach if there's a lifeattached to it, we're inspecting
(01:46):
it.
Right?
So helicopters, airplanes,anything that you actually get
onto and transports a person orhas some kind of life attached
to it, we evaluate to make surethat whoever's actually using
that product will end upsurviving.
We test stuff without breakingit.
Michael Donnelly (02:04):
I mean it's in essence is that simple, and you
know, but it's very complicatedonce you start digging in.
You know, we test stuff withdifferent modalities, different
different forms of energy totest different parts and depths
of parts and welds.
Uh it's just it's one of thosesuper cool industries where I
(02:24):
think you can do anything youwant to do almost anywhere you
want to do it.
Caleb Ayers (02:28):
So, just for those listening who don't know, Phil
and Michael are involved in twodifferent programs here at IALR,
and I'll give kind of a briefexplanation of what those are.
So the ATDM program, Phil is aninstructor for that, teaching
students for who will go on towork in defense manufacturing
careers.
So that program is acceleratedtraining in defense
(02:48):
manufacturing.
So Phil is one of severalinstructors we have just for
NDT, where they're trainingstudents for NDT careers,
students who have no previousexperience in this most mostly.
Um, in four months, they canlearn the skills for an
entry-level NDT role to then beable to move up in that field.
Michael is with the AdditiveManufacturing Center of
(03:09):
Excellence, uh, or the AMCOE, welove acronyms here, which is
essentially they're making therecipes for how to 3D print
parts or how to use additivemanufacturing to develop parts
for that the Navy needs fornaval vessels.
Michael specifically is withindustrial inspection and
analysis, where they're kind ofat the end of the that pathway
(03:30):
inspecting those parts at theend to make sure that they're,
as you all have said, to makesure they have the they're gonna
hold up.
Um that's that's the key thing.
So with that kind of preface,and and Phil, you talked a
little bit about this, you know,kind of that NDT is everywhere,
but kind of talk about why isNDT such an important process in
in manufacturing andspecifically with what you all
(03:51):
are doing, it's it's defensemanufacturing.
So I mean, why is this such asuch a critical process?
Phil Bowers (03:56):
Um so NDT in itself really hit the um big back in
the early uh railroad days,right?
So that's basically where theybecame even any somewhat
familiar with anybody was therailroad days, where they used
to use motor oil and talcumpowder on the railroad lines to
look for cracks.
So as they were welding tracktogether, they were realizing
the track was cracking after acertain point and they couldn't
(04:18):
figure out why.
So somebody came up with acompletely absurd idea to throw
motor oil down on it and thenclean it off and then put talcum
powder down, and as it bledout, you could actually see
where the well didn't fuse.
That was the you know therailroad industry.
And then since then it's grownmainly the industrial
revolution, right?
So the next big jump is theindustrial revolution.
(04:40):
Uh and it was a lot of theconstruction side of the house
started having a lot of failuresin uh industry.
So a lot of the a lot ofmaterial started failing, a lot
of other catastrophic eventsstarted happening.
So then people started findingways to actually inspect it to
find out what was happening, whyit was happening, and ways to
(05:01):
stop it from failing.
So a lot of our the worst partabout our job is the fact that
our job came around because alot of people died.
RSo a lot of there's a lot of
like we're our job is to stopthat from happening, and so it
had to happen for us to get.
And so majority of the timewe're inspecting stuff, it's to
(05:22):
stop that factor.
So the Industrial Revolution,then from there, it was World
War II, it was the next bigjump.
So after that, it's pretty muchwe've been non-stop inspecting
everything since then.
Uh, weapon systems, uhsubmarines, the USS Thresher,
right?
That's where the majority ofthe nav sea side of the house
(05:42):
came from.
Or the the subsafe side of thehouse came from was a thresher.
Right?
Thresher had a fatigue, hugefatigue crack or cracking in the
hole that caused massiveflooding.
And that was the last time youknow civilians were allowed on a
dive for initial ship.
So now all the all thesubmarines had to go through
(06:03):
what they call subsafe.
Right?
So there's a much strenuousinspection process for subsafe
rather than just standard shipinspections.
Um, but yeah, so we inspectships, we inspect subs, we
inspect automobiles, rollercoasters.
Um, the carowins, right?
So there was the roller coasterof the carowins that had a huge
crack in them, and the actualuh support of the railroad
(06:25):
railing system.
That's our job is to inspectthat to keep that from
happening.
So Disney World, Disneyland,they all have a they always have
an NDT staff on hand just toinspect all the other rides.
Caleb Ayers (06:38):
What are the main methods at this point that are
you were talking about kind ofthat history and development of
people figuring out how to dothis?
So, what are those main kind ofmethods that are in in play
right now that that you all seeyou know out in the field or in
your roles?
Michael Donnelly (06:55):
Yeah, so Phil was talking about the oil of
whiting method of putting oiland then talcum powder on track.
Uh so that's liquid penetranttesting, is what that's involved
in.
It used to be petroleum-basedchemicals that we would use and
put on parts and then just washthem down the train.
And you know, as ecologicalconcerns and environmental
protections have evolved, that'sevolved just like everything
(07:18):
else.
Um the big ones are the liquidpenetrant testing, radiographic
testing, which is an X-ray, justlike of your arm.
We do that of various materialsand shapes.
Uh ultrasonic testing, which isputting sound into a part, and
we can either bounce it or sendit straight back up and down uh
to see various places where wecan't really reach sometimes.
(07:40):
Uh that kind of started inWorld War II, big time with the
uh barrels on the bigbattleships, actually.
Cool story there.
But then we have visualtesting, which is just using
your eyes, looking at a part,comparing it to a standard,
making sure it fits where it'ssupposed to fit, everything's
sound and nothing's visiblyshowing.
And then we have uh EddieCurrent, which is one of the
(08:03):
more advanced methods currently.
Uh well, I'd say phase arrayultrasonics is probably the most
intricate method we havecurrently.
Uh but then Eddie Current usesmagnetic coils to put energy
into a part and it detectssuper, super fine cracks.
So, like aviation parts thatuse Eddie Current a lot to look
(08:24):
for cracks in the skin, uh,which is actually a structural
component of the aircraft.
And it'll actually work onnon-ferromagnetic parts, so it's
it's a very versatile method.
So the other method would bemagnetic particle, which uses
magnetism.
We can induce it in a wholebunch of different ways in
different orientations, andthat's either you use a dry
(08:45):
powder and it attracts to acrack in the part, or it can use
a wet liquid that will attractto the crack in the part, but
it's a little easier to seebecause it's usually ultraviolet
where it fluoresces.
Caleb Ayers (08:56):
So kind of talk a little bit about your I guess
career journey, kind of some ofthe places you've put these
skills to use, and then youknow, with that, I guess
practically, how when in theprocess are these, when in the
manufacturing process are thesedifferent kinds of processes
carried out?
Michael Donnelly (09:14):
So my path started about 2006.
I just I went to Tulsa,Oklahoma, to go to a school
called Spartan College ofAeronautics.
I was really interested inaviation forever and thought it
sounded neat.
And my brother was going to bea mechanic, so I decided I
wanted to check on his work,make sure it was safe, right?
So I went through that program.
Uh while I was in the school, Istarted working for an NDT
(09:38):
company.
Uh started doing X-ray ofhoneycomb panels for aircraft,
and then it turned into X-ray ofanything aircraft and some eddy
current and ultra- I mean itwas a fantastic experience to
learn just a multitude ofdifferent methods and gain a
bunch of hours of experience.
Uh, from there I moved back toMissouri and started doing
(10:00):
x-rays of stainless steelpressure vessel welds.
Uh, and I did that for a longtime.
It was really interesting.
There's a lot of beer tanks,wine tanks, milk tanks,
vaccination tanks.
COVID-19, we shot all thosetanks that they made the
vaccinations in.
Just a multitude of differenttanks.
Um and after that, I got thisshow.
(10:23):
Came here to specificallymanage the NDT program and work
with guys on helping build theparts to keep our country safe.
Yeah, so NDT can happen at anystage of manufacturing.
Uh, anywhere from the steelmill where they're making the
materials, we can check themolds there, we can check the
material before they melt it tomake sure it's the right
chemical composition.
(10:44):
Uh we can all the way to theend where different components
are welded together or fittedtogether.
We can check at any stageanything that needs to be
checked.
We're we're very versatile.
Um, and like Phil said, we'vehad to become that way to stop
the loss.
Phil Bowers (11:00):
So for me, I um joined the Navy in '98.
Um after joining the Navy, Iwent uh worked aviation for a
couple years.
Uh found out about NDT throughthat process, and then uh ended
up going to the school in 2007,or actually 2006, finished in
2007, um, and have been doing itever since, right?
(11:21):
So helicopters, airplanes, umso I've yeah, I've worked on
F-18s, F-14s, H-60s, F46s, 53s,um, some foreign aircraft that
you know the US owns.
Just just different thingsabout the world.
But also when I was on thecarriers, I would also do stuff
(11:44):
on the carriers.
So I was doing um anything thatanything that touched an
airplane on the carrier is my myresponsibility.
So I was doing a lot ofinspections on eddy with Eddie
Current, mag particle,fluorescent, um, UT, RT, lots of
experience in those doing thoseuh you know shots.
You know, X-raying aircraftcomponents, X-raying aircraft
while they're fully assembled.
(12:06):
Right?
So, like he was saying, in theprocesses, we you know we start
from the beginning, right?
So when they first start makingthe materials all the way to
the end of before it goes outthe door.
But then we also do it afterthat.
So we actually inspect after inuse, right, in service parts,
parts that are already out thereworking.
(12:26):
So we know everything has afatigue and fail point, and a
lot of times it's already beencalculated into its use.
And so our job is to go backout and to make sure it hasn't
hidden that fail point yet.
Right?
So even though we started atthe beginning of when it was
first manufactured, nothinglasts forever.
And so our job is to go throughthe entire process of from
(12:47):
cradle to grave to where theproduct's no longer used
anymore.
All right, so I've shot x-rays.
Oh, so after that I got out ofthe Navy, I um um went and
worked for a company where wedid uh explosive ordnance
handling.
So we had to do uh X-ray X-rayevaluation analysis of ordnance
and rocket motors and stuff likethat.
(13:08):
Some of the rocket motors I wasx-raying were older than I was.
Um and so they were we werejust evaluating them to make
sure they were still in theservice lifespan and that
nothing was deteriorated orbroken with them, and they were
still usable.
Um and so that just goes intothe thing that every five to six
(13:31):
years we pull them out of coldstore and then x-ray them and
then send them back to coldstore.
Caleb Ayers (13:36):
That's really cool.
And what you're talking about?
Like, because I guess I've beenin in the NDT lab over for the
ATDM program, and you know, Iyou see students with the
generally smaller parts is whatyou guys are working with.
So that's what I'm thinkingabout, you know, that the pieces
before they're going into use.
But yeah, the idea of trying tox-ray parts on a helicopter
that is assembled and figure outwhat's what, and that sounds
(13:57):
that sounds fun and complicated.
Phil Bowers (13:59):
Correct.
Yeah, so it's not so the whatwe what we have in the classroom
is just a classroom typeenvironment, right?
We can't really necessarilybring a ship inside the inside
the classroom.
Caleb Ayers (14:10):
Why not?
Generally speaking, NDT, andand you had talked about this,
kind of goes very hand in handwith welding.
Um and also, obviously withIAA, you guys, I mean IIA, um,
you all are doing work veryclosely connected with additive
manufacturing.
So I guess talk about thedifference between, I guess,
(14:31):
even what processes you woulduse for those, you know, if
you're do it looking at a weldpart versus uh something that
was 3D printed, uh, kind of justhow that how does that look
different between those twothings?
Michael Donnelly (14:41):
Everything we do is different, but it's also
the same.
(15:14):
I mean, we gave you the bigmethods examples, but there's
(15:47):
there's a bunch of techniquesunder each of those methods, so
we can, you know, ultrasonics,for instance.
We mentioned phased array.
There's ultrasonic conventionallongitudinal, ultrasonic
conventional shear wave, uh,phase array, shear wave, phase
array longitudinal, uh, totalfocus method, uh beam steering,
yeah.
Um there's a tons of differentways, so essentially all the
(16:09):
methods are the same, it's justhow we how we focus in that
energy and how we use differentenergy for different parts.
So, additive in particular, um,we're not looking for gross
defects most of the time.
It's usually going to be verysmall, very fine holes that the
lasers missed when they werefusing different layers or some
spatter sometimes will stick inplaces that shouldn't stick.
(16:31):
So we're looking for little BBsthat shouldn't be there.
Sometimes the powders don't getcompletely removed from the
process, so we're looking forpowder and holes that it
shouldn't be in.
Uh that and so it's it's allthe same, uh, but it's we can
tailor it down and narrow itdown to a very specific
application, and everyapplication is different, you
(16:52):
know.
Phil Bowers (16:53):
So with welds, we we concentrate strictly on just
the weld and the area around it,right?
So we call it heat effect zone.
So we can we can actuallycontrol how much we we look at,
how much we inspect.
Because the material up to thatpoint should be have been
inspected up to the point wherethe welder got it hot.
And so with the weld, wenormally care about the weld
(17:16):
itself, the weld meant how itwas fused, how how the joint
alert, right?
So did they get the jointtogether like it's supposed to
be?
Did it meet the requirement ofthe code?
And then the area around itwhere they heated it up during
the welding process.
All right, because those arethe areas that are gonna change
the characteristics of the basemetal.
To where, like with addedmanufacturing or something like
(17:37):
that, you would go towards thecasting side to where they're
basically in a casting, you'repouring hot molten metal into a
mold, and then you're letting itcool.
Well, and with their addedmanufacturing, you're taking
away the mold factor of it, andnow you're just fusing certain
points in the metal together.
You're not just hot pouringmetal into a big green mold,
(18:01):
right?
And so you're looking fordifferent discontinuities based
on the differences and how theprocesses work, and that's what
our job is to do is to take howit was manufactured in the first
place.
Alright, so what are theinitial, what was the initial
point of manufacturing?
So was it made in a foundry?
(18:23):
R So to come out of foundry asa as a raw stock material,
right?
So you have a big plug of umingot, right?
And they'll cut out sections ofit and they'll send it off to
get forged.
Forging discontinuities arenothing like casting
discontinuity.
So when you go to castsomething, you get the metal
(18:45):
molten hot and you pour it intoa mold.
Those are loosely bound grainstructures, right?
So you've got big grains oflike mass.
They're not really finecompressed.
To where if you send it off uha piece of metal off to a
foundry to where it gets forged,like a sheet of metal, they
(19:05):
actually take that hot metal,not molten, just like to the
point where it's malleable, andthey'll roll it, continuously
roll it flat until it gets to aspecific height, and that's how
you get your metal, that's howyou get the sheets of metal out
of it.
Because they just they roll itfrom a big chunk to get smaller
and add more and more pressure,and it stretches the metal out
(19:26):
until it gets to a very specificthickness.
But by doing so, it takes allthose grains and makes them
small.
So it makes it more compressed,more compact.
So it makes it easier toinspect because they're actually
more uniform grain structures.
And where like a casting or a3D printing, the grain
structures aren't uniform innature.
(19:48):
So it requires a differentunderstanding and different
processes and a theory ofconcept to evaluate inspect
them.
Michael Donnelly (19:55):
Currently at the AM CoE we use uh laser
powder bed fusion.
So how that works is there's abuild plate with and a machine
pushes a layer of powder overthat build plate, and then
there's a high-powered laserthat fuses that powder into the
build plate just instantly.
And then after that layer isdone, it makes another layer of
(20:16):
the powder, puts the powderdown, fuses it with the laser,
and then just keeps going up andup and up.
Uh, most layers are sub-halfmillimeter thick, so they're not
thick at all.
So it's very thin, that's veryfast, and it makes a part that
is just almost ready to go inservice, depending on the
application.
So there's very littlemachining required to clean up a
(20:38):
laser powder bed part.
Uh, the other modality we doover there is uh directed energy
deposition or WAM wire arcadditive manufacturing.
So it's just like in ashipyard, you see a guy with a
Meg welder and he's justwelding.
We just put it on a robot armand it just welds a layer and
then goes up a layer and welds alayer and goes up.
(20:58):
Uh so each of those.
Modalities we're testing forvery different things, and each
one is challenging in its ownright.
So DED is more like atraditional weld, but it's
stacked weld, so it adds a levelof complexity that's very
different.
It requires a lot moremachining after it's finished to
get a usable part out of it.
(21:20):
PBF is close to ready to go,but the surface is still rough,
so most of the NDT methods arenot applicable until it is
machined or cleaned or smoothed,or they're developing different
ways to prepare that surfacefor NDT before they go in
service.
So there's a little blurb foryou on what we're printing.
Caleb Ayers (21:43):
It's not simple.
It's not one size fits all.
The process has to match how itwas manufactured, is the very
obviously I a lot of thosedetails I don't fully
understand, but that's that'sthe part I can get in in my
brain right now.
Phil Bowers (21:58):
Our job in the industry is to determine exactly
how what we need to inspect,right?
How we need to inspect it, whydo we based on how where it came
from.
We can sit there and inspectstuff all day long, but if we
don't know where it came from orhow it was originally
manufactured, then we're wastingour time.
And we might not be looking forthe right discontinuities.
(22:18):
Right?
We're not looking for thecorrect indications if it was a
welded part and I'm just tryingto, you know, do a quick visual
of it and and don't really careabout anything else other than a
visual.
I can I can I've seen somepretty welds, some beautiful
weld.
You go look underneath it,horrible.
Absolutely, just the worstthing you've ever seen.
But you can't look underneathit with your eyes.
(22:40):
You have to use some othermethod.
Caleb Ayers (22:42):
And obviously you all have different roles, Phil,
with more you're more obviouslytraining students who are
actively looking to enter thisfield and get an NDT job.
Michael, I know you're morekind of leading a team of people
who are already in this field.
Um, but what does this I guesscareer field look like?
What are the kind of thepathways that people can go?
Um, and I know there's there'slike the different levels to
(23:05):
this too.
So if you guys want to talkabout that as well.
Phil Bowers (23:07):
I'll go and start off seeing how my job is pretty
much about putting puttingpeople in the industry in the
first place.
Um so as far as like placingstudents goes, we can put place
students just about anywhere.
We we try to concentrate on theDIB, SIB, the MIB, right?
So the maritime industrial baseor the defense industrial base
or the submarine industrial basewhile we're at it.
(23:29):
Um we try to get them in thoseindustries, right?
Those are the industries thatthis program is set up to
establish, to put them into.
But the training, the level oftraining we give them, the
actual knowledge itself, isapplicable to any industry,
right?
So NDT in itself isn't onlysolely dedicated to one
industry, right?
So it's one of those thingswhere I've had students leave
(23:52):
here and get a job at you know ashipyards all day long, but at
the same time, I've had studentsleave here and actually pick up
a job where they're they'reinspecting uh power plants,
critical infrastructure.
So they're going into thenuclear power plants and doing
NDT inside of a nuclearfacility, inspecting to make
sure while they're doing plantshutdowns and rework, so that
(24:14):
way they can get to understand,you know, like, but it's
completely different theoryaltogether.
Then I've got other studentswho are manufacturing components
for the Navy or the Army ormaybe anybody else, the Air
Force, right?
They're making tanks or makingarmored vehicles or making
airplanes or making whatever.
So they're they're going intothose at those diff those fields
(24:38):
with just the knowledge we givethem.
Again, which again is in fourmonths.
People, these people are comingin with no previous knowledge
of this.
I've had baristas last cohorthad a school bus driver, right?
Drove a school bus for severalyears.
Uh she was uh, I don't want togive her age away, uh, but she
was a little older, um let's saybetween the third 30s and 40s,
(25:03):
um, and just complete completecareer change, right?
Um I've had a student in his60s come through, complete
career change, right?
So come through, got the end oftraining the training, then
went out and was successfulsuccessful.
So there's not set to aspecific age group.
(25:23):
Um anybody can come to thisprogram.
I've had 18-year-old straightout of high school left high
school in June or May, June timeframe, August showed up here to
go training, and left here made$45, $50 an hour.
Um, and so this the programitself is a very great benefit
(25:45):
to the industry, right?
So our program provides we haveemployers all the time who like
our students because the way wethe way we train our training
program works, how we trainthem, what we train them to, how
we need them to understand NDT.
And so while that was a veryrare case that we got that for a
student at that point, butthere was a job out there that
(26:06):
paid it.
Um so yes, there's there'salways opportunity out there for
any industry to especially forNDT.
Caleb Ayers (26:16):
There's always a need.
Yeah, I love as you know thosestories that you were talking
about of people coming with noprevious experience in career
fields that they're notfulfilled in, and then in four
months they get to do somethingthat they are fulfilled in and
make good money doing it.
Michael Donnelly (26:30):
So in NDT, you're not stuck in any
industry.
You can switch industries.
You can so yeah, we one day wecan go to a power plant and
x-ray a bunch of welds on pipingin a system, and then the next
day uh go to an airport and dox-ray examination of aircraft
parts.
Uh, the next day we could go toSpaceX, an X-ray, a space part.
(26:54):
It's it's very it's verydifferent.
And when I say you can trulyfind something in whatever you
like, I really believe you can.
Uh so once they leave the ATDM,when they come to me, they're a
trainee still.
They have the experience, theyhave the uh some hours, but
typically not enough hours yetto get the level one
certification.
(27:15):
So the level one certificationis a person who has some
experience and training in themethod, um, but they're they're
still learning.
They still have a ways to go,so they have to operate under
the supervision of a level two.
Uh, the level two isresponsible for completely
taking a method outside awayindependently and doing that
(27:37):
method efficiently andcorrectly.
Um so they can take a level oneand give them the experience
hours to get them up to a leveltwo where they go on their own
and start training people underthem.
So it's kind of a self-feedingcareer field, if you will, too.
Uh so level twos, you know,there's a lot of people who like
(27:59):
to be level twos and they juststay at level two forever, and
there's nothing wrong with that.
You can make good money as alevel two.
Um, you could go do shutdownsand turnarounds and power plants
and collect your per diems andyour high wages and per uh
what's the prevailing wage.
There's a lot of prevailingwage federal jobs out there that
(28:19):
travel around and pay reallygood money.
Um so there's nothing wrongwith being a level two forever
if that's what you want.
Um, guys like Phil and I, wewanted a little more, I think.
Uh so we just kept going.
We liked learning, we likedteaching, we like figuring out
the problems that sometimes thelevel two can't figure out.
(28:40):
So we have our own set ofskills as a level three to to
share with everybody and youknow to write the procedures
that the level twos have tofollow when they're doing the
testing independently to makesure everybody's safe.
Caleb Ayers (28:54):
So, yeah, again, I think it's cool to see you know
the different ways that you allare involved, and obviously this
is a very important careerfield, as you said, you know, in
any industry, regardless of ofwhat it is, if if people are
touching it, if people areriding on it, whatever the thing
is, you know, NDT is involved,so it's a very important
industry.
And just seeing the roles thatyou know these two projects are
(29:16):
taking with that for obviouslyATDM training the next wave of
people who will join thisindustry and be able,
particularly in the defense andmaritime industrial base, be
able to you know inspect theseparts, inspect these welds, and
make sure that all these shipsand submarines, whether it be
inspecting the original part orinspecting something on a
(29:37):
submarine way after the fact oryou know, whatever whatever that
looks like, be able to do thesetypes of inspections.
And then obviously, Michael,with what you all are doing,
with you know making sure thatthese recipes, these technical
data packages that the Navy iscreating for their suppliers,
that those right processes arebuilt in and um for how to
inspect these parts.
It's it's really, really cool.
(29:57):
Is there anything else that youall would want to add about
just kind of NDT in general oror you know the the role that
you get to play in this field?
Phil Bowers (30:07):
I I enjoy my role, right?
So there's not too many peoplewho actually enjoy uh teaching
NDT, they find it prettydifficult.
I guess it's one of the thingsI actually enjoy doing.
Um because it's very fulfillingto watch a student grow, right?
You can get them to get them tounderstand what NDT is in the
first place, and then watchinglight bulbs just start clicking
(30:27):
off in their heads, and thenonce they start realizing
because you can sit there andtalk to them all day long about
what NDT is and what it does andhow important it is in the
industry and how important it isin the world, and they don't
understand until they actuallystart looking and they start
doing their own research, andthey're like, holy cow, it's
everywhere.
And they start applying tojobs, and they start realizing
(30:50):
yes, they can get a job atSpaceX, Blue Ordnance hiring.
Um you can go Tesla, you can gouh Lockheed Martin, Newport
News Shipyards, we haveeverybody in every industry and
every like we were ineverything, but we're just the
unknown, right?
So so once something fails,then it's always you know it's
(31:13):
always the NDT person.
But up to that point, nobodyreally knows what we do.
We're kind of like the ghostwho sits in the background to
make sure that nothing fails.
And so until something goescatastrophic, nobody knows who
we are or what we do.
And so it kind of kee creates amystery behind it, but we don't
I honestly I openly talk aboutwhat we do all day long because
(31:37):
I enjoy teaching, right?
So I enjoy sharing my knowledgeand sharing my information and
watching people grow in theindustry.
Michael Donnelly (31:46):
Over on my side of things and the
production side, I have an ATDMgraduate and we've been working
with him, getting him his hours,and he's doing great.
He came over with you knowenough knowledge that he's able
to just jump right in and starthelping out.
So that that's I can personallyattest to the fact that ATDM is
putting out great, greatstudents.
One thing I would add is justget comfortable with computers.
(32:10):
Learn computers, learn ifcomputers are of interest, you
can go into NDT just doingcomputers at this point.
AI is becoming mainstream inNDT, machine learning,
programming robotics, uhoperating the ROVs and the
underwater robots, the remotelyoperated vehicles, quadcopters,
yeah.
I mean I know a guy who's he'sa level three, his job is to
(32:32):
collect the drone data thatpeople collect across the
country, and he just sits at hiscomputer and reviews it looking
for defects and says, Hey, golook at this closer.
Uh so just learn yourcomputers.
Your reporting is gonna becomputed.
It's it's not gonna change,there's no way around it.
Uh you can avoid it for awhile, but I think in a few
(32:55):
years it's gonna be completelyunavoidable.
And change is good.
That's that's the growth in ourindustry, all the way from you
know, back in the steamboilerdays and crack tracks and all
the way through now with leadingedge edge computing and AI and
machine learning.
It's it's coming and it's Ithink it's a good thing as long
as we continue to monitor it.
Caleb Ayers (33:15):
I think we should all try to do the underwater
robots you were talking about.
That sounds pretty cool.
That's that'll be my next job.
So thank you guys.
I appreciate it.
So once something fails, then er then it's always,
you know, it's always the NDTperson.
But up to that point, nobodyreally knows what we do.
We're kind of like the ghostwho sits in the background to
make sure that nothing fails.
And so until something goescatastrophic, nobody knows who
we are or what we do.
And so it kind of ke creates amystery behind it.
Caleb Ayers (00:30):
Welcome to another episode of Inside IALR.
Thanks for being here today.
So today we're here to talkabout non-destructive testing,
which, as I say when I givetours, is exactly what it sounds
like, and we'll get into moreof the specifics of what that
means.
But essentially,non-destructive testing, you are
testing something withoutdestroying it.
So they they named that fieldvery well.
So I have two guests with metoday, and I'll let them
(00:52):
introduce themselves real quick.
Michael Donnelly (00:56):
My name is Michael Donnelly.
I'm the NDT manager at theCenter for Manufacturing
Advancement working forindustrial inspection and
analysis.
Phil Bowers (01:04):
So I gave my uh layman's understanding of
non-destructive testing upfront.
I want you guys to give me your20-second pitch to someone who
has no clue what NDT is that yougive, and then and then break
it down further for when you'retalking to smart people that
know what you're talking about.
So I spiel for students whodon't actually know anything
(01:26):
about it, and it's the firsttime ever coming to the
understanding of what it means,is a way to evaluate materials
in such a manner that you canjust inspect anything, right?
So roller coasters, bridges,roads, vehicles, you name it, if
it attach if there's a lifeattached to it, we're inspecting
(01:46):
it.
Right?
So helicopters, airplanes,anything that you actually get
onto and transports a person orhas some kind of life attached
to it, we evaluate to make surethat whoever's actually using
that product will end upsurviving.
We test stuff without breakingit.
Michael Donnelly (02:04):
I mean it's in essence is that simple, and you
know, but it's very complicatedonce you start digging in.
You know, we test stuff withdifferent modalities, different
different forms of energy totest different parts and depths
of parts and welds.
Uh it's just it's one of thosesuper cool industries where I
(02:24):
think you can do anything youwant to do almost anywhere you
want to do it.
Caleb Ayers (02:28):
So, just for those listening who don't know, Phil
and Michael are involved in twodifferent programs here at IALR,
and I'll give kind of a briefexplanation of what those are.
So the ATDM program, Phil is aninstructor for that, teaching
students for who will go on towork in defense manufacturing
careers.
So that program is acceleratedtraining in defense
(02:48):
manufacturing.
So Phil is one of severalinstructors we have just for
NDT, where they're trainingstudents for NDT careers,
students who have no previousexperience in this most mostly.
Um, in four months, they canlearn the skills for an
entry-level NDT role to then beable to move up in that field.
Michael is with the AdditiveManufacturing Center of
(03:09):
Excellence, uh, or the AMCOE, welove acronyms here, which is
essentially they're making therecipes for how to 3D print
parts or how to use additivemanufacturing to develop parts
for that the Navy needs fornaval vessels.
Michael specifically is withindustrial inspection and
analysis, where they're kind ofat the end of the that pathway
(03:30):
inspecting those parts at theend to make sure that they're,
as you all have said, to makesure they have the they're gonna
hold up.
Um that's that's the key thing.
So with that kind of preface,and and Phil, you talked a
little bit about this, you know,kind of that NDT is everywhere,
but kind of talk about why isNDT such an important process in
in manufacturing andspecifically with what you all
(03:51):
are doing, it's it's defensemanufacturing.
So I mean, why is this such asuch a critical process?
Phil Bowers (03:56):
Um so NDT in itself really hit the um big back in
the early uh railroad days,right?
So that's basically where theybecame even any somewhat
familiar with anybody was therailroad days, where they used
to use motor oil and talcumpowder on the railroad lines to
look for cracks.
So as they were welding tracktogether, they were realizing
the track was cracking after acertain point and they couldn't
(04:18):
figure out why.
So somebody came up with acompletely absurd idea to throw
motor oil down on it and thenclean it off and then put talcum
powder down, and as it bledout, you could actually see
where the well didn't fuse.
That was the you know therailroad industry.
And then since then it's grownmainly the industrial
revolution, right?
So the next big jump is theindustrial revolution.
(04:40):
Uh and it was a lot of theconstruction side of the house
started having a lot of failuresin uh industry.
So a lot of the a lot ofmaterial started failing, a lot
of other catastrophic eventsstarted happening.
So then people started findingways to actually inspect it to
find out what was happening, whyit was happening, and ways to
(05:01):
stop it from failing.
So a lot of our the worst partabout our job is the fact that
our job came around because alot of people died.
RSo a lot of there's a lot of
like we're our job is to stopthat from happening, and so it
had to happen for us to get.
And so majority of the timewe're inspecting stuff, it's to
(05:22):
stop that factor.
So the Industrial Revolution,then from there, it was World
War II, it was the next bigjump.
So after that, it's pretty muchwe've been non-stop inspecting
everything since then.
Uh, weapon systems, uhsubmarines, the USS Thresher,
right?
That's where the majority ofthe nav sea side of the house
(05:42):
came from.
Or the the subsafe side of thehouse came from was a thresher.
Right?
Thresher had a fatigue, hugefatigue crack or cracking in the
hole that caused massiveflooding.
And that was the last time youknow civilians were allowed on a
dive for initial ship.
So now all the all thesubmarines had to go through
(06:03):
what they call subsafe.
Right?
So there's a much strenuousinspection process for subsafe
rather than just standard shipinspections.
Um, but yeah, so we inspectships, we inspect subs, we
inspect automobiles, rollercoasters.
Um, the carowins, right?
So there was the roller coasterof the carowins that had a huge
crack in them, and the actualuh support of the railroad
(06:25):
railing system.
That's our job is to inspectthat to keep that from
happening.
So Disney World, Disneyland,they all have a they always have
an NDT staff on hand just toinspect all the other rides.
Caleb Ayers (06:38):
What are the main methods at this point that are
you were talking about kind ofthat history and development of
people figuring out how to dothis?
So, what are those main kind ofmethods that are in in play
right now that that you all seeyou know out in the field or in
your roles?
Michael Donnelly (06:55):
Yeah, so Phil was talking about the oil of
whiting method of putting oiland then talcum powder on track.
Uh so that's liquid penetranttesting, is what that's involved
in.
It used to be petroleum-basedchemicals that we would use and
put on parts and then just washthem down the train.
And you know, as ecologicalconcerns and environmental
protections have evolved, that'sevolved just like everything
(07:18):
else.
Um the big ones are the liquidpenetrant testing, radiographic
testing, which is an X-ray, justlike of your arm.
We do that of various materialsand shapes.
Uh ultrasonic testing, which isputting sound into a part, and
we can either bounce it or sendit straight back up and down uh
to see various places where wecan't really reach sometimes.
(07:40):
Uh that kind of started inWorld War II, big time with the
uh barrels on the bigbattleships, actually.
Cool story there.
But then we have visualtesting, which is just using
your eyes, looking at a part,comparing it to a standard,
making sure it fits where it'ssupposed to fit, everything's
sound and nothing's visiblyshowing.
And then we have uh EddieCurrent, which is one of the
(08:03):
more advanced methods currently.
Uh well, I'd say phase arrayultrasonics is probably the most
intricate method we havecurrently.
Uh but then Eddie Current usesmagnetic coils to put energy
into a part and it detectssuper, super fine cracks.
So, like aviation parts thatuse Eddie Current a lot to look
(08:24):
for cracks in the skin, uh,which is actually a structural
component of the aircraft.
And it'll actually work onnon-ferromagnetic parts, so it's
it's a very versatile method.
So the other method would bemagnetic particle, which uses
magnetism.
We can induce it in a wholebunch of different ways in
different orientations, andthat's either you use a dry
(08:45):
powder and it attracts to acrack in the part, or it can use
a wet liquid that will attractto the crack in the part, but
it's a little easier to seebecause it's usually ultraviolet
where it fluoresces.
Caleb Ayers (08:56):
So kind of talk a little bit about your I guess
career journey, kind of some ofthe places you've put these
skills to use, and then youknow, with that, I guess
practically, how when in theprocess are these, when in the
manufacturing process are thesedifferent kinds of processes
carried out?
Michael Donnelly (09:14):
So my path started about 2006.
I just I went to Tulsa,Oklahoma, to go to a school
called Spartan College ofAeronautics.
I was really interested inaviation forever and thought it
sounded neat.
And my brother was going to bea mechanic, so I decided I
wanted to check on his work,make sure it was safe, right?
So I went through that program.
Uh while I was in the school, Istarted working for an NDT
(09:38):
company.
Uh started doing X-ray ofhoneycomb panels for aircraft,
and then it turned into X-ray ofanything aircraft and some eddy
current and ultra- I mean itwas a fantastic experience to
learn just a multitude ofdifferent methods and gain a
bunch of hours of experience.
Uh, from there I moved back toMissouri and started doing
(10:00):
x-rays of stainless steelpressure vessel welds.
Uh, and I did that for a longtime.
It was really interesting.
There's a lot of beer tanks,wine tanks, milk tanks,
vaccination tanks.
COVID-19, we shot all thosetanks that they made the
vaccinations in.
Just a multitude of differenttanks.
Um and after that, I got thisshow.
(10:23):
Came here to specificallymanage the NDT program and work
with guys on helping build theparts to keep our country safe.
Yeah, so NDT can happen at anystage of manufacturing.
Uh, anywhere from the steelmill where they're making the
materials, we can check themolds there, we can check the
material before they melt it tomake sure it's the right
chemical composition.
(10:44):
Uh we can all the way to theend where different components
are welded together or fittedtogether.
We can check at any stageanything that needs to be
checked.
We're we're very versatile.
Um, and like Phil said, we'vehad to become that way to stop
the loss.
Phil Bowers (11:00):
So for me, I um joined the Navy in '98.
Um after joining the Navy, Iwent uh worked aviation for a
couple years.
Uh found out about NDT throughthat process, and then uh ended
up going to the school in 2007,or actually 2006, finished in
2007, um, and have been doing itever since, right?
(11:21):
So helicopters, airplanes, umso I've yeah, I've worked on
F-18s, F-14s, H-60s, F46s, 53s,um, some foreign aircraft that
you know the US owns.
Just just different thingsabout the world.
But also when I was on thecarriers, I would also do stuff
(11:44):
on the carriers.
So I was doing um anything thatanything that touched an
airplane on the carrier is my myresponsibility.
So I was doing a lot ofinspections on eddy with Eddie
Current, mag particle,fluorescent, um, UT, RT, lots of
experience in those doing thoseuh you know shots.
You know, X-raying aircraftcomponents, X-raying aircraft
while they're fully assembled.
(12:06):
Right?
So, like he was saying, in theprocesses, we you know we start
from the beginning, right?
So when they first start makingthe materials all the way to
the end of before it goes outthe door.
But then we also do it afterthat.
So we actually inspect after inuse, right, in service parts,
parts that are already out thereworking.
(12:26):
So we know everything has afatigue and fail point, and a
lot of times it's already beencalculated into its use.
And so our job is to go backout and to make sure it hasn't
hidden that fail point yet.
Right?
So even though we started atthe beginning of when it was
first manufactured, nothinglasts forever.
And so our job is to go throughthe entire process of from
(12:47):
cradle to grave to where theproduct's no longer used
anymore.
All right, so I've shot x-rays.
Oh, so after that I got out ofthe Navy, I um um went and
worked for a company where wedid uh explosive ordnance
handling.
So we had to do uh X-ray X-rayevaluation analysis of ordnance
and rocket motors and stuff likethat.
(13:08):
Some of the rocket motors I wasx-raying were older than I was.
Um and so they were we werejust evaluating them to make
sure they were still in theservice lifespan and that
nothing was deteriorated orbroken with them, and they were
still usable.
Um and so that just goes intothe thing that every five to six
(13:31):
years we pull them out of coldstore and then x-ray them and
then send them back to coldstore.
Caleb Ayers (13:36):
That's really cool.
And what you're talking about?
Like, because I guess I've beenin in the NDT lab over for the
ATDM program, and you know, Iyou see students with the
generally smaller parts is whatyou guys are working with.
So that's what I'm thinkingabout, you know, that the pieces
before they're going into use.
But yeah, the idea of trying tox-ray parts on a helicopter
that is assembled and figure outwhat's what, and that sounds
(13:57):
that sounds fun and complicated.
Phil Bowers (13:59):
Correct.
Yeah, so it's not so the whatwe what we have in the classroom
is just a classroom typeenvironment, right?
We can't really necessarilybring a ship inside the inside
the classroom.
Caleb Ayers (14:10):
Why not?
Generally speaking, NDT, andand you had talked about this,
kind of goes very hand in handwith welding.
Um and also, obviously withIAA, you guys, I mean IIA, um,
you all are doing work veryclosely connected with additive
manufacturing.
So I guess talk about thedifference between, I guess,
(14:31):
even what processes you woulduse for those, you know, if
you're do it looking at a weldpart versus uh something that
was 3D printed, uh, kind of justhow that how does that look
different between those twothings?
Michael Donnelly (14:41):
Everything we do is different, but it's also
the same.
(15:14):
I mean, we gave you the bigmethods examples, but there's
(15:47):
there's a bunch of techniquesunder each of those methods, so
we can, you know, ultrasonics,for instance.
We mentioned phased array.
There's ultrasonic conventionallongitudinal, ultrasonic
conventional shear wave, uh,phase array, shear wave, phase
array longitudinal, uh, totalfocus method, uh beam steering,
yeah.
Um there's a tons of differentways, so essentially all the
(16:09):
methods are the same, it's justhow we how we focus in that
energy and how we use differentenergy for different parts.
So, additive in particular, um,we're not looking for gross
defects most of the time.
It's usually going to be verysmall, very fine holes that the
lasers missed when they werefusing different layers or some
spatter sometimes will stick inplaces that shouldn't stick.
(16:31):
So we're looking for little BBsthat shouldn't be there.
Sometimes the powders don't getcompletely removed from the
process, so we're looking forpowder and holes that it
shouldn't be in.
Uh that and so it's it's allthe same, uh, but it's we can
tailor it down and narrow itdown to a very specific
application, and everyapplication is different, you
(16:52):
know.
Phil Bowers (16:53):
So with welds, we we concentrate strictly on just
the weld and the area around it,right?
So we call it heat effect zone.
So we can we can actuallycontrol how much we we look at,
how much we inspect.
Because the material up to thatpoint should be have been
inspected up to the point wherethe welder got it hot.
And so with the weld, wenormally care about the weld
(17:16):
itself, the weld meant how itwas fused, how how the joint
alert, right?
So did they get the jointtogether like it's supposed to
be?
Did it meet the requirement ofthe code?
And then the area around itwhere they heated it up during
the welding process.
All right, because those arethe areas that are gonna change
the characteristics of the basemetal.
To where, like with addedmanufacturing or something like
(17:37):
that, you would go towards thecasting side to where they're
basically in a casting, you'repouring hot molten metal into a
mold, and then you're letting itcool.
Well, and with their addedmanufacturing, you're taking
away the mold factor of it, andnow you're just fusing certain
points in the metal together.
You're not just hot pouringmetal into a big green mold,
(18:01):
right?
And so you're looking fordifferent discontinuities based
on the differences and how theprocesses work, and that's what
our job is to do is to take howit was manufactured in the first
place.
Alright, so what are theinitial, what was the initial
point of manufacturing?
So was it made in a foundry?
(18:23):
R So to come out of foundry asa as a raw stock material,
right?
So you have a big plug of umingot, right?
And they'll cut out sections ofit and they'll send it off to
get forged.
Forging discontinuities arenothing like casting
discontinuity.
So when you go to castsomething, you get the metal
(18:45):
molten hot and you pour it intoa mold.
Those are loosely bound grainstructures, right?
So you've got big grains oflike mass.
They're not really finecompressed.
To where if you send it off uha piece of metal off to a
foundry to where it gets forged,like a sheet of metal, they
(19:05):
actually take that hot metal,not molten, just like to the
point where it's malleable, andthey'll roll it, continuously
roll it flat until it gets to aspecific height, and that's how
you get your metal, that's howyou get the sheets of metal out
of it.
Because they just they roll itfrom a big chunk to get smaller
and add more and more pressure,and it stretches the metal out
(19:26):
until it gets to a very specificthickness.
But by doing so, it takes allthose grains and makes them
small.
So it makes it more compressed,more compact.
So it makes it easier toinspect because they're actually
more uniform grain structures.
And where like a casting or a3D printing, the grain
structures aren't uniform innature.
(19:48):
So it requires a differentunderstanding and different
processes and a theory ofconcept to evaluate inspect
them.
Michael Donnelly (19:55):
Currently at the AM CoE we use uh laser
powder bed fusion.
So how that works is there's abuild plate with and a machine
pushes a layer of powder overthat build plate, and then
there's a high-powered laserthat fuses that powder into the
build plate just instantly.
And then after that layer isdone, it makes another layer of
(20:16):
the powder, puts the powderdown, fuses it with the laser,
and then just keeps going up andup and up.
Uh, most layers are sub-halfmillimeter thick, so they're not
thick at all.
So it's very thin, that's veryfast, and it makes a part that
is just almost ready to go inservice, depending on the
application.
So there's very littlemachining required to clean up a
(20:38):
laser powder bed part.
Uh, the other modality we doover there is uh directed energy
deposition or WAM wire arcadditive manufacturing.
So it's just like in ashipyard, you see a guy with a
Meg welder and he's justwelding.
We just put it on a robot armand it just welds a layer and
then goes up a layer and welds alayer and goes up.
(20:58):
Uh so each of those.
Modalities we're testing forvery different things, and each
one is challenging in its ownright.
So DED is more like atraditional weld, but it's
stacked weld, so it adds a levelof complexity that's very
different.
It requires a lot moremachining after it's finished to
get a usable part out of it.
(21:20):
PBF is close to ready to go,but the surface is still rough,
so most of the NDT methods arenot applicable until it is
machined or cleaned or smoothed,or they're developing different
ways to prepare that surfacefor NDT before they go in
service.
So there's a little blurb foryou on what we're printing.
Caleb Ayers (21:43):
It's not simple.
It's not one size fits all.
The process has to match how itwas manufactured, is the very
obviously I a lot of thosedetails I don't fully
understand, but that's that'sthe part I can get in in my
brain right now.
Phil Bowers (21:58):
Our job in the industry is to determine exactly
how what we need to inspect,right?
How we need to inspect it, whydo we based on how where it came
from.
We can sit there and inspectstuff all day long, but if we
don't know where it came from orhow it was originally
manufactured, then we're wastingour time.
And we might not be looking forthe right discontinuities.
(22:18):
Right?
We're not looking for thecorrect indications if it was a
welded part and I'm just tryingto, you know, do a quick visual
of it and and don't really careabout anything else other than a
visual.
I can I can I've seen somepretty welds, some beautiful
weld.
You go look underneath it,horrible.
Absolutely, just the worstthing you've ever seen.
But you can't look underneathit with your eyes.
(22:40):
You have to use some othermethod.
Caleb Ayers (22:42):
And obviously you all have different roles, Phil,
with more you're more obviouslytraining students who are
actively looking to enter thisfield and get an NDT job.
Michael, I know you're morekind of leading a team of people
who are already in this field.
Um, but what does this I guesscareer field look like?
What are the kind of thepathways that people can go?
Um, and I know there's there'slike the different levels to
(23:05):
this too.
So if you guys want to talkabout that as well.
Phil Bowers (23:07):
I'll go and start off seeing how my job is pretty
much about putting puttingpeople in the industry in the
first place.
Um so as far as like placingstudents goes, we can put place
students just about anywhere.
We we try to concentrate on theDIB, SIB, the MIB, right?
So the maritime industrial baseor the defense industrial base
or the submarine industrial basewhile we're at it.
(23:29):
Um we try to get them in thoseindustries, right?
Those are the industries thatthis program is set up to
establish, to put them into.
But the training, the level oftraining we give them, the
actual knowledge itself, isapplicable to any industry,
right?
So NDT in itself isn't onlysolely dedicated to one
industry, right?
So it's one of those thingswhere I've had students leave
(23:52):
here and get a job at you know ashipyards all day long, but at
the same time, I've had studentsleave here and actually pick up
a job where they're they'reinspecting uh power plants,
critical infrastructure.
So they're going into thenuclear power plants and doing
NDT inside of a nuclearfacility, inspecting to make
sure while they're doing plantshutdowns and rework, so that
(24:14):
way they can get to understand,you know, like, but it's
completely different theoryaltogether.
Then I've got other studentswho are manufacturing components
for the Navy or the Army ormaybe anybody else, the Air
Force, right?
They're making tanks or makingarmored vehicles or making
airplanes or making whatever.
So they're they're going intothose at those diff those fields
(24:38):
with just the knowledge we givethem.
Again, which again is in fourmonths.
People, these people are comingin with no previous knowledge
of this.
I've had baristas last cohorthad a school bus driver, right?
Drove a school bus for severalyears.
Uh she was uh, I don't want togive her age away, uh, but she
was a little older, um let's saybetween the third 30s and 40s,
(25:03):
um, and just complete completecareer change, right?
Um I've had a student in his60s come through, complete
career change, right?
So come through, got the end oftraining the training, then
went out and was successfulsuccessful.
So there's not set to aspecific age group.
(25:23):
Um anybody can come to thisprogram.
I've had 18-year-old straightout of high school left high
school in June or May, June timeframe, August showed up here to
go training, and left here made$45, $50 an hour.
Um, and so this the programitself is a very great benefit
(25:45):
to the industry, right?
So our program provides we haveemployers all the time who like
our students because the way wethe way we train our training
program works, how we trainthem, what we train them to, how
we need them to understand NDT.
And so while that was a veryrare case that we got that for a
student at that point, butthere was a job out there that
(26:06):
paid it.
Um so yes, there's there'salways opportunity out there for
any industry to especially forNDT.
Caleb Ayers (26:16):
There's always a need.
Yeah, I love as you know thosestories that you were talking
about of people coming with noprevious experience in career
fields that they're notfulfilled in, and then in four
months they get to do somethingthat they are fulfilled in and
make good money doing it.
Michael Donnelly (26:30):
So in NDT, you're not stuck in any
industry.
You can switch industries.
You can so yeah, we one day wecan go to a power plant and
x-ray a bunch of welds on pipingin a system, and then the next
day uh go to an airport and dox-ray examination of aircraft
parts.
Uh, the next day we could go toSpaceX, an X-ray, a space part.
(26:54):
It's it's very it's verydifferent.
And when I say you can trulyfind something in whatever you
like, I really believe you can.
Uh so once they leave the ATDM,when they come to me, they're a
trainee still.
They have the experience, theyhave the uh some hours, but
typically not enough hours yetto get the level one
certification.
(27:15):
So the level one certificationis a person who has some
experience and training in themethod, um, but they're they're
still learning.
They still have a ways to go,so they have to operate under
the supervision of a level two.
Uh, the level two isresponsible for completely
taking a method outside awayindependently and doing that
(27:37):
method efficiently andcorrectly.
Um so they can take a level oneand give them the experience
hours to get them up to a leveltwo where they go on their own
and start training people underthem.
So it's kind of a self-feedingcareer field, if you will, too.
Uh so level twos, you know,there's a lot of people who like
(27:59):
to be level twos and they juststay at level two forever, and
there's nothing wrong with that.
You can make good money as alevel two.
Um, you could go do shutdownsand turnarounds and power plants
and collect your per diems andyour high wages and per uh
what's the prevailing wage.
There's a lot of prevailingwage federal jobs out there that
(28:19):
travel around and pay reallygood money.
Um so there's nothing wrongwith being a level two forever
if that's what you want.
Um, guys like Phil and I, wewanted a little more, I think.
Uh so we just kept going.
We liked learning, we likedteaching, we like figuring out
the problems that sometimes thelevel two can't figure out.
(28:40):
So we have our own set ofskills as a level three to to
share with everybody and youknow to write the procedures
that the level twos have tofollow when they're doing the
testing independently to makesure everybody's safe.
Caleb Ayers (28:54):
So, yeah, again, I think it's cool to see you know
the different ways that you allare involved, and obviously this
is a very important careerfield, as you said, you know, in
any industry, regardless of ofwhat it is, if if people are
touching it, if people areriding on it, whatever the thing
is, you know, NDT is involved,so it's a very important
industry.
And just seeing the roles thatyou know these two projects are
(29:16):
taking with that for obviouslyATDM training the next wave of
people who will join thisindustry and be able,
particularly in the defense andmaritime industrial base, be
able to you know inspect theseparts, inspect these welds, and
make sure that all these shipsand submarines, whether it be
inspecting the original part orinspecting something on a
(29:37):
submarine way after the fact oryou know, whatever whatever that
looks like, be able to do thesetypes of inspections.
And then obviously, Michael,with what you all are doing,
with you know making sure thatthese recipes, these technical
data packages that the Navy iscreating for their suppliers,
that those right processes arebuilt in and um for how to
inspect these parts.
It's it's really, really cool.
(29:57):
Is there anything else that youall would want to add about
just kind of NDT in general oror you know the the role that
you get to play in this field?
Phil Bowers (30:07):
I I enjoy my role, right?
So there's not too many peoplewho actually enjoy uh teaching
NDT, they find it prettydifficult.
I guess it's one of the thingsI actually enjoy doing.
Um because it's very fulfillingto watch a student grow, right?
You can get them to get them tounderstand what NDT is in the
first place, and then watchinglight bulbs just start clicking
(30:27):
off in their heads, and thenonce they start realizing
because you can sit there andtalk to them all day long about
what NDT is and what it does andhow important it is in the
industry and how important it isin the world, and they don't
understand until they actuallystart looking and they start
doing their own research, andthey're like, holy cow, it's
everywhere.
And they start applying tojobs, and they start realizing
(30:50):
yes, they can get a job atSpaceX, Blue Ordnance hiring.
Um you can go Tesla, you can gouh Lockheed Martin, Newport
News Shipyards, we haveeverybody in every industry and
every like we were ineverything, but we're just the
unknown, right?
So so once something fails,then it's always you know it's
(31:13):
always the NDT person.
But up to that point, nobodyreally knows what we do.
We're kind of like the ghostwho sits in the background to
make sure that nothing fails.
And so until something goescatastrophic, nobody knows who
we are or what we do.
And so it kind of kee creates amystery behind it, but we don't
I honestly I openly talk aboutwhat we do all day long because
(31:37):
I enjoy teaching, right?
So I enjoy sharing my knowledgeand sharing my information and
watching people grow in theindustry.
Michael Donnelly (31:46):
Over on my side of things and the
production side, I have an ATDMgraduate and we've been working
with him, getting him his hours,and he's doing great.
He came over with you knowenough knowledge that he's able
to just jump right in and starthelping out.
So that that's I can personallyattest to the fact that ATDM is
putting out great, greatstudents.
One thing I would add is justget comfortable with computers.
(32:10):
Learn computers, learn ifcomputers are of interest, you
can go into NDT just doingcomputers at this point.
AI is becoming mainstream inNDT, machine learning,
programming robotics, uhoperating the ROVs and the
underwater robots, the remotelyoperated vehicles, quadcopters,
yeah.
I mean I know a guy who's he'sa level three, his job is to
(32:32):
collect the drone data thatpeople collect across the
country, and he just sits at hiscomputer and reviews it looking
for defects and says, Hey, golook at this closer.
Uh so just learn yourcomputers.
Your reporting is gonna becomputed.
It's it's not gonna change,there's no way around it.
Uh you can avoid it for awhile, but I think in a few
(32:55):
years it's gonna be completelyunavoidable.
And change is good.
That's that's the growth in ourindustry, all the way from you
know, back in the steamboilerdays and crack tracks and all
the way through now with leadingedge edge computing and AI and
machine learning.
It's it's coming and it's Ithink it's a good thing as long
as we continue to monitor it.
Caleb Ayers (33:15):
I think we should all try to do the underwater
robots you were talking about.
That sounds pretty cool.
That's that'll be my next job.
So thank you guys.
I appreciate it.
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