February 4, 2025 • 28 mins
Andreas Kilander, offsite and modular manager at FRAMECAD, delves into the transformative role of cold-formed steel (CFS) in modular construction, discussing FRAMECAD's design-to-manufacture process and efficiency advantages, as well as the latest CFS building trends. In addition, Andreas highlights both the opportunities and challenges builders face when adopting this technology and shares insights about the future of CFS in modular construction.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Inside Modular, the podcast of
commercial modular constructionbrought to you by the Modular
Building Institute.
Welcome everyone.
My name is John McMullen.
I'm the Marketing Director hereat MBI.
Today I'm joined by AndreasKalander, Offsite and Modular
Manager at FrameCAD.
Andreas is here to talk aboutthe ins and outs of designing
(00:22):
and building with cold formsteel, as well as how building
designers can maximize itspotential.
Andreas, welcome.
Thanks, John.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thanks for having me on the podcast.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's a pleasure to have you.
Thank you.
Tell me about yourself, andreas, what's your background and
what brought you to FrameCat.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah, so I'll try to keep it a bit brief.
So I'm originally from Swedenin Europe and moved to Australia
about 12 years ago.
So my background is inmanufacturing, mainly mechanical
design and product development,and that's also what brought me
to Sydney here in Australia,and that was to design a special
purpose packaging machine for alocal company.
Anyway, we liked it.
(01:11):
So we stayed here in Australia,me and my family, and I think
it was around 2015.
Well, I was working in my ownbusiness as a mechanical design
contractor.
I was approached by peopleinvolved with one large builder
here in Sydney who was thenlooking to launch a modular
(01:31):
construction business.
So they asked me to design theconcept and I then became their
design manager and it wasmodular bathrooms or bathroom
pots.
So that's a little bit where mymodular construction journey
began, manager, and it wasmodular bathrooms or bathroom
pods.
So that's a little bit where mymodular construction journey
(01:52):
began.
I later joined a company herein Australia called Interpod,
which is one of the largestmodular bathroom manufacturers,
and again, this was as a designmanager.
So both of these companies onboth of these companies, I was a
(02:12):
client and a user of theFrameCAD technology, so I knew
them quite well.
Then, in 2021, so during theheight of COVID-19, I joined
FrameCat to help the applianceset up for cold form steel
manufacturing, and so that's howI landed where I am today.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Very good.
Covid aside, it sounds like avery serendipitous journey that
you've had thus far.
But for those who aren'tfamiliar with FrameCat, how
would you describe the companyand its role in the larger
modular construction industry?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
So at FrameCat, we are specialized in technology
solutions for design andmanufacturing of core form
steams.
Also I may have a slip up ortwo here we call this light
gauge steel or LGS.
We're going to try to use CFSor core form steel, and so we're
(03:11):
not a frame manufacturer.
We are the supplier of thetechnology for the frame
manufacturers, and what sets usapart is our end-to-end approach
, so we would provide thecomplete system.
So that includes software fordesign and engineering, of
course, the role formingequipment and and also all the
(03:33):
other components like for abuilding system, so brackets and
guides for how it's puttogether.
I know it's not really thatsimple, but sometimes when I do
speak to people who's not in theindustry, I actually used to
say that yeah, think of a systemwhich is a 3D printer of
building steel structures.
(03:53):
It would surprise how many ofour clients actually use that
term.
Oh, we're going to print thisframe, we're going to print this
truss, so it's a way of makingit a little bit easier to
understand.
So it's a way of making it alittle bit easier to understand.
And, of course, many of ourclients are in modular
construction, but our technologyis used in a wide range of
sectors, including residential,commercial and industrial
(04:15):
construction, and today we havea bit over 1,000 systems in 120
countries that are using ourtechnology to produce wall
frames, clusters, floor joistsand also modular bases.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Well, I love that analogy.
I'm sure it's infinitely morecomplicated, but the 3D printer
analogy is great.
I wish I had stumbled upon thatwhen I was preparing for this
podcast.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
It would have made my life a lot easier.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
But no, that's awesome.
According to your website,FrameCAD has been around for 35
years.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Tell me about how FrameCAD has evolved in that
time.
What are you capable of nowthat you weren't before?
Framecad is a New Zealand-basedbased company and we began in
1987.
So that is what's that 38 years, I think.
So we might have to update thehomepage there.
And initially we were deliveringbuilding system to Pacific
Islands, due to the closedistance to islands in the
(05:22):
Pacific Ocean, and at the timewe focused on delivering mainly
material, even if there wasmachines involved not really
designed by us, and we deliveredmaterial to produce purlins and
cladding systems, which was apart of our building system.
And then these evolved.
So in the 1990s we began tospecify our own machinery, but
(05:48):
we're still relying on externalmanufacturers and we also
recognized the growing need ofsoftware integration.
So because, yeah, you have amachine, but how do you get
things out of it?
So we launched our softwaredevelopment and developed design
software in the 1990s, and thenthe next milestone would be
(06:11):
around 2005, where we actuallybrought all this in-house.
So we started to design andbuild our own machines entirely
in Auckland, new Zealand, in ourfactory and office.
And that's something we do untiltoday.
We keep doing it, and then inrecent years we've focused
(06:32):
heavily on advancing thebuilding system.
So our software has grown alittle bit, has grown from being
just a design and engineeringtool into more of a
comprehensive manufacturingsuite.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I'm interested and we mentioned this a few minutes
ago with the analogy that yougave but I'm interested in how
the frame CAD system works.
Beyond the analogy of the 3Dprinter, can you explain the
process that your clients gothrough, starting with their
designs and ending with CFSframes?
Is it similar or different thanother CAD or BIM programs out
(07:10):
there?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, so at Franca, we referred to the whole process
as design, manufacture, build.
So if we start with the designstep, I mean this goes beyond
just creating design.
It does include engineering,evaluation of the design and
optimization.
(07:32):
Of course, you want thebuilding to be strong enough,
but you also don't want to usemore material than necessary, so
the optimization is quiteimportant, and so our clients
process vary quite a lot fromclient to client.
Some do all their work in oursoftware, so everything until
(07:55):
this manufacturer is done insideof our software, while others
myself included when I was aclient we integrate with other
external platforms, so thingslike BIM or CAD system, like
SOLIDWORKS, for example.
So then we have plugins to talkto these things, and regardless
(08:17):
of that workflow, in the end,though, it all goes through our
software, which then generatesthe CNC code for the machine, so
there is actually no manualprogramming of these.
This is all taken care of byour software.
So if you design a frame, youdon do any programming, that's,
that's done by the system, andthen it would generate drawings
(08:40):
as well, and we we tend to havea very paperless process, but
there's still some, likeauthorities or engineers, who
wants at least a pdf of thedrawings and there's also a
digital assembly instructionthat is sent to the roll forming
equipment for manufacturing.
And then you have the nextstage there, which would be the
(09:02):
manufacturing stage, and here ofcourse, our roll forming
machines comes into play.
So we do have multiple type ofmachines and it depends on what
you intend to build, what typeof machine you use.
So larger profiles or thickergauge is normally a larger
machine, for example for modular, it's very common with the
(09:24):
smaller ones, I would say.
So a typical rule for modularconstruction is it's quite small
.
So they only take up around 25by 6 meter of space and that
includes the decoiler.
So they're pretty small to putin the corner of your
manufacturing space.
And that process is quitesimple the manufacturing part.
You load the steel coil intothe decoiler and you select the
(09:48):
project, you want to run thefile and you're ready to go.
So then the machine wouldmanufacture those members and
all tooling is already done, sofor penetrations, for service
hole and so on.
And every screw connection isdimpled, which means it creates
(10:08):
a hole for the screw, but italso creates, like a dent, a pan
or a cavity what do you want tocall it so and that has two
purposes.
First is that the screw headwill be recessed into the frame,
so which allow for a flatsurface when you install plaster
and so on.
But it also allows you to clickthe frames together actually
before you.
(10:29):
You screw them off and, as Imentioned earlier, the on-screen
assembly instructions will bedisplayed on the machine so you
can see exactly what member goeswhere.
And then the build stage.
This is again different fromdifferent clients, so those who
(10:49):
are not modular.
You build a volumetric modulein the factory that would stack
and strap the stack of panelsand then that will be sent to
site, while modularmanufacturers normally would use
trolleys if they have a staticbuild, so for bigger buildings
that doesn't move with batchesof panels, that goes to each
(11:11):
station.
And then, if you have a palletsystem where you do smaller
modules, we found that most ofthem use the framing station for
both manufacturing and stand orerect the frames at the framing
station so it flows in,probably the starting point
normally of your modular factory, so they erect modules as they
(11:34):
come off the machine.
So it's a very streamlinedprocess and it's precision and
efficient in every step, fromdesign to final assembly.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Well, I'm sure this was the intent, but it sounds
outstandingly user-friendly.
What are the benefits ofcold-formed steel and what kind
of structures is CFS best for?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, of course there's a lot of benefits.
I can mention a few.
But so efficiency, as themanufacturing process is very
streamlined, it makes it veryfast to go from design to
finished frames, if you call orif you compare to alternatives.
And then of course it dependson what you compare with.
(12:21):
But if we compare with withtimber or wood, as you would say
in the us, is the durability,so it's a, it's resistant to
fire, pest and extreme weather,so mold and twisting and so on,
the accuracy, and so theautomated process.
I don't want to say eliminatetotal, but it reduced the human
(12:43):
errors.
It's very hard to actuallyassemble a frame the wrong way
once it's designed correctly.
Another big one is waste.
So if we compare to eitherlengths of wood or lengths of
structural steel or red steel,we have, I mean, a steel coil is
(13:05):
probably what is that in feet?
Around 3,000 feet, and we don'thave any waste in between the
members, so you can where onestart, the other stops for 3000
feet.
So the only waste you get isreally when you're in the end of
a call.
There might be a bit left thatdoesn't fit into a member.
(13:27):
The waste we do get would befrom tool punches.
So when we punch for service,all the things, but it's very
little waste.
If you compare that to to othermethods, I think you can
definitely say that core formsteel is is reducing your waste
quite a lot and strength toweight ratio it's very light and
(13:48):
that's of course in particularwith modular, if you compare to
traditional materials likeconcrete and timber and weather
structures makes it easier tolift, to transport and handle on
site, which sometimes also leadto that you can have fewer
other structural elementsbecause the weight of the core
form steel is is light.
And storage is another benefit.
(14:11):
You you can store about five toeight steel coils on top of
each other on the flat and thefive coils would fit in 10 to 15
square feet and that's actually15,000 linear feet of profile.
So compare that to when youwould have lengths of timber or
(14:32):
red steel.
It's very compact and as amodular manufacturer I like the
control of supply chain, so youget frames when you need them on
demand.
And then you asked whatstructures is best for.
So where it's called foam,steel is the main structure.
Of course low rise buildingsare very good, but mid rise
(14:54):
buildings I would say there's alimit around eight, eight levels
.
Even with eight levels youmight have a podium or, uh, some
other, but we see fully likeactually, buildings that are
seven story, that goes up, soit's.
It's generally not usedtraditionally in high rise
buildings.
Um, besides, if you do a hybridconstruction with other, like
(15:19):
you integrate the co-form steelwith structure steel or concrete
, then you can yeah, you can goas high as you build pretty much
.
I even think there was lightcash deal in this Burj Khalifa
in Dubai, but it's not thestructural part of the building.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Well, you predicted a little bit of my next question.
But taking the height intoconsideration, if we were to say
you know eight stories andbelow, are you of the opinion
that wood or welded steelstructures offer greater
benefits for certain types ofprojects?
You know again, within thatheight limit, or should we be
using coal-formed steel all overthe place, for for every
(15:56):
project?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
no, what we?
We think that cold form steeloffers advantages in, in over
welded structures and timber and, of course, in in in most
things, of course there are uh.
There are situations where we'reboth uh, wood and and well
structures have an edge over,like HD or cold form steel.
(16:20):
I'm not sure I can give youlike a project example, but me
myself, for example, I even usetimber to a degree in my
bathroom pots.
So when, for example, want toinstall a grab rod which was
tested for high load, I feltcomfortable about having a piece
(16:43):
of wood inside of the steelframes to screw onto.
And regarding welded structure,this is and has been the most
common solution for modularbases.
So we do have we see now a lotof projects using cold form
(17:03):
steel for many projects, butthere's no doubt there still are
plenty of modular projects outthere that really benefit from
welded structures.
I think you can see this way.
If you, if you can usecold-formed steel, I would, as
there are some substantialsavings to be made on the cost,
(17:24):
but I still think the weldedstructures will still be the
main one going forward.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Well, you've been with FrameCat, as you mentioned,
for several years.
What kind of trends have youseen in the industry when it
comes to cold-formed steel-basedbuildings?
How have those trends affectedthe capabilities of FrameCat's
software and its machines?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, so I mean a trend that we obviously are very
happy with is that we actuallysee more and more companies that
are moving into cold-formedsteel for modular and assemble
(18:11):
them manually, that we get moreand more that actually gets
their own equipment, because youcan get the frames on demand
with all tooling done.
Another trend that I touched ona little bit in your earlier
question is that we see moremodules that are being fully
built out of cold-formed steel.
So while earlier it was mostlyhybrid bases with weather
(18:33):
structures or concrete, we see alittle bit more of like a steel
or, sorry, core foam steelbasis.
Another trend, when it comes toboth modular and prefab, is
that we see a bit of verticalintegration.
Prefab is that we see a bit ofvertical integration, so
(18:55):
developers and builders actuallyset up their own manufacturing
just for their own needs.
So while they don't market inthese states, they have their
own factory to produce their ownmodules or their own panels.
And of course, this uptake hasled to us doing things that are
modular unique.
So we do have tools today thathas been requested from modular
(19:20):
clients that are unique formodular buildings, so like punch
tools that makes it easier torun plumbing around corners and
so on.
That makes it easier to runplumbing around corners and so
on.
And from a software point ofview, even myself I actually got
FrameKit to develop a plugin toSOLIDWORKS because we fully
(19:41):
designed everything inside ofSOLIDWORKS and I didn't want to
have like I wanted one truth,one place for all the design so
we can export the designstraight out of SOLIDWORKS
straight into the FrameCatsoftware.
We just do the machine code forus.
So it's been capabilities addedjust due to modular
construction.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Well, that's very cool.
It sounds like FrameCat isresponsive to its customers'
needs and what they're lookingfor.
I was going to ask as asoftware and machine supplier
are there other common questionsthat clients ask you or
challenges that they seem to befacing?
If so, what are they and howare they resolved?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yes, there's plenty of challenges.
In particular, when you'resetting up a new operation, you
will discover a lot of thingsthat you need to learn how to
handle.
So I think the wallet designand manufacturing process are
very well developed, as it'squite old and it's been used for
(20:41):
a long time.
Over the years we have learnedthat core form steel
manufacturing or operation ismuch larger than this.
So many clients have had todevelop their own methods to
handle this, most likely byusing third-party software,
sometimes multiple, to integrateand try to integrate it.
(21:03):
It's not always successful andthat's for things like
scheduling of your manufacturingand resource management.
We also see quality andcompliance is becoming more and
more important part, because youneed traceability of material.
An example of these in the USwe have ICC that a lot of
(21:24):
clients now comply with.
You've got inventory ofmaterial, project management
yeah, status tracking, delivery.
There's a lot of things thatcomes into play.
Then you say what we have doneto help them.
So that's the reason we, overthe last couple of years, have
(21:44):
developed a product managementsoftware called Pranked Nexa,
which we quite recentlyannounced.
So it's a few months old and tomy knowledge, this is the only
product management platform thatis just tailored for cold form
steel industry.
So, in short, what these do istakes care of all those things
that I mentioned earlier andgives you control and visibility
(22:07):
of your projects.
So from the design, which wealready handled well, to the
installation on site.
So there's much more than theactual design and manufacturing.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
For those who are working with CFS now and for
those who are considering it,what are some best practices
you've found relating to itshandling and use?
What should builders know thatthey may not know now?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So, in regards to handling, in general, core film
steel can be handled manually asit's low weight, but I would
still avoid making walls andpanels that are too long.
So at least for onsite uhbuilding, um, it's just a few
(22:55):
clicks in the design software.
So you, I would, I would try tohelp my, my uh assembly crew on
site by not doing too heavy andbig elements, if I can uh.
It also makes the shipping alot easier and, on the contrary,
if you are in, are in modularconstruction and you, if you
have access to lifting gear, Iwould do the opposite.
(23:17):
I will make the walls as longas possible so I eliminate
joints because that will speedup my assembly process.
So the size of the element isis important for for the
handling and also it may not bea big thing for smaller
buildings, but in biggerbuildings I would also use the
(23:37):
zoning function in our softwareso I can ensure that every panel
is manufactured and stacked inorder that they are needed for
the install.
So I would plan my installationsequence because I know that
would save time on site.
It's a lot easier to do in thesoftware than to have to work
that out on site and whatbuilders should know that they
(24:03):
may not.
While we like that, we have highprecision and that is exact
design For new builders.
This is sometimes they used tobe able to play around on site.
If they have a concrete basethat is uneven or not properly
(24:25):
done With cold foam steel, yourequire a bit more more.
You need to do it right fromthe beginning, so to draw it up
and really check the, theconcrete base.
So it's, it's good.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Um, it's an advice I can give because it will be the
way it's designed you mentionedearlier some trends with the use
of cold formed steel, howthings are on an uptick.
What do do you foreseehappening in the CFS-based
modular construction market overthe next few years?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
We already see a big push for ADUs.
They call it a bit different inEurope, australia and in the US,
but we see that has grown a lotboth in the US and in Canada
the United States and Canada soI think we will see a continuous
(25:18):
growth of the ADUs and I thinkthis is linked to the housing
shortage that a lot of countriesare experiencing at the moment,
and this may be one of thesolutions of course, not the
only one but it will ease thepressure a little bit.
Also, affordable buildings islinked to the same issue.
(25:41):
It's a bit of a buzzword at themoment, but it has gained a lot
of attention, and governmentsand everyone is really talking
about affordable housing and Ireally believe that modular is
going to play a big part of this, and I also think coal from
(26:10):
steel will be an importantfactor as well, because it's's
very fast process and low costcompared to alternatives.
I see another sector that is isgrowing.
I found that our older clientsum get more and more into this
and that is internally fit outon drivers, so more of that is
now done as as prefabricatedelements than just do it on site
(26:32):
, and I think what drives thesea little bit is that building
authorities has started tobecome a bit firmer on receiving
accurate as built drawings withBIM and things in place, and
also it requires materialtraceability, and, as this is
something you get our systemcomply with without any effort,
(26:55):
really I think that's what makesthem successful in this area.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Well, Andreas, this has been great.
I really appreciate your time.
Before I let you go, I see thatFrameCAD is going to be
exhibiting at MBI's upcomingWorld of Modular event in Las
Vegas in April.
What do you look forward tomost about that event?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yes, we are.
We're going to exhibit it.
It's actually in my job.
That's a highlight of the year,I'd say.
We did exhibit last year aswell in Orlando, and I also went
to the World of Modular inBrussels, and I found both those
events to be to be great.
What I'm looking forward to?
(27:37):
Last year we met many clients onthis event, much more than I
actually anticipated, and so Ireally look forward again to go
there and speak with them.
You get to see a lot of peoplewithin a short time, which is
which is good.
I also hope to have enough timeto go and see as many breakout
sessions as possible.
I particularly like those wherespeakers share the lessons
(28:01):
learned from earlier projects.
I found them very, veryinteresting and valuable.
If I can apply that to my ownprojects, I may not have to
commit the same mistakes or Iwill learn.
So I hope to be able to see afew of these, and I would, of
course, also like to take theopportunity to invite anyone to
(28:22):
read out to me in the conferenceif they want to talk about
Coreform, Steel and Modular.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Andreas, thank you so much.
I really appreciate your timetoday and I look forward to
seeing you in April in Las Vegas.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
My name is John McMullen and this has been
another episode of InsideModular, the podcast for
commercial modular construction.
Until next time.
Hello and welcome to Inside Modular, the podcast of
commercial modular constructionbrought to you by the Modular
Building Institute.
Welcome everyone.
My name is John McMullen.
I'm the Marketing Director hereat MBI.
Today I'm joined by AndreasKalander, Offsite and Modular
Manager at FrameCAD.
Andreas is here to talk aboutthe ins and outs of designing
(00:22):
and building with cold formsteel, as well as how building
designers can maximize itspotential.
Andreas, welcome.
Thanks, John.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thanks for having me on the podcast.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's a pleasure to have you.
Thank you.
Tell me about yourself, andreas, what's your background and
what brought you to FrameCat.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah, so I'll try to keep it a bit brief.
So I'm originally from Swedenin Europe and moved to Australia
about 12 years ago.
So my background is inmanufacturing, mainly mechanical
design and product development,and that's also what brought me
to Sydney here in Australia,and that was to design a special
purpose packaging machine for alocal company.
Anyway, we liked it.
(01:11):
So we stayed here in Australia,me and my family, and I think
it was around 2015.
Well, I was working in my ownbusiness as a mechanical design
contractor.
I was approached by peopleinvolved with one large builder
here in Sydney who was thenlooking to launch a modular
(01:31):
construction business.
So they asked me to design theconcept and I then became their
design manager and it wasmodular bathrooms or bathroom
pots.
So that's a little bit where mymodular construction journey
began, manager, and it wasmodular bathrooms or bathroom
pods.
So that's a little bit where mymodular construction journey
(01:52):
began.
I later joined a company herein Australia called Interpod,
which is one of the largestmodular bathroom manufacturers,
and again, this was as a designmanager.
So both of these companies onboth of these companies, I was a
(02:12):
client and a user of theFrameCAD technology, so I knew
them quite well.
Then, in 2021, so during theheight of COVID-19, I joined
FrameCat to help the applianceset up for cold form steel
manufacturing, and so that's howI landed where I am today.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Very good.
Covid aside, it sounds like avery serendipitous journey that
you've had thus far.
But for those who aren'tfamiliar with FrameCat, how
would you describe the companyand its role in the larger
modular construction industry?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
So at FrameCat, we are specialized in technology
solutions for design andmanufacturing of core form
steams.
Also I may have a slip up ortwo here we call this light
gauge steel or LGS.
We're going to try to use CFSor core form steel, and so we're
(03:11):
not a frame manufacturer.
We are the supplier of thetechnology for the frame
manufacturers, and what sets usapart is our end-to-end approach
, so we would provide thecomplete system.
So that includes software fordesign and engineering, of
course, the role formingequipment and and also all the
(03:33):
other components like for abuilding system, so brackets and
guides for how it's puttogether.
I know it's not really thatsimple, but sometimes when I do
speak to people who's not in theindustry, I actually used to
say that yeah, think of a systemwhich is a 3D printer of
building steel structures.
(03:53):
It would surprise how many ofour clients actually use that
term.
Oh, we're going to print thisframe, we're going to print this
truss, so it's a way of makingit a little bit easier to
understand.
So it's a way of making it alittle bit easier to understand.
And, of course, many of ourclients are in modular
construction, but our technologyis used in a wide range of
sectors, including residential,commercial and industrial
(04:15):
construction, and today we havea bit over 1,000 systems in 120
countries that are using ourtechnology to produce wall
frames, clusters, floor joistsand also modular bases.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Well, I love that analogy.
I'm sure it's infinitely morecomplicated, but the 3D printer
analogy is great.
I wish I had stumbled upon thatwhen I was preparing for this
podcast.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
It would have made my life a lot easier.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
But no, that's awesome.
According to your website,FrameCAD has been around for 35
years.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Tell me about how FrameCAD has evolved in that
time.
What are you capable of nowthat you weren't before?
Framecad is a New Zealand-basedbased company and we began in
1987.
So that is what's that 38 years, I think.
So we might have to update thehomepage there.
And initially we were deliveringbuilding system to Pacific
Islands, due to the closedistance to islands in the
(05:22):
Pacific Ocean, and at the timewe focused on delivering mainly
material, even if there wasmachines involved not really
designed by us, and we deliveredmaterial to produce purlins and
cladding systems, which was apart of our building system.
And then these evolved.
So in the 1990s we began tospecify our own machinery, but
(05:48):
we're still relying on externalmanufacturers and we also
recognized the growing need ofsoftware integration.
So because, yeah, you have amachine, but how do you get
things out of it?
So we launched our softwaredevelopment and developed design
software in the 1990s, and thenthe next milestone would be
(06:11):
around 2005, where we actuallybrought all this in-house.
So we started to design andbuild our own machines entirely
in Auckland, new Zealand, in ourfactory and office.
And that's something we do untiltoday.
We keep doing it, and then inrecent years we've focused
(06:32):
heavily on advancing thebuilding system.
So our software has grown alittle bit, has grown from being
just a design and engineeringtool into more of a
comprehensive manufacturingsuite.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I'm interested and we mentioned this a few minutes
ago with the analogy that yougave but I'm interested in how
the frame CAD system works.
Beyond the analogy of the 3Dprinter, can you explain the
process that your clients gothrough, starting with their
designs and ending with CFSframes?
Is it similar or different thanother CAD or BIM programs out
(07:10):
there?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, so at Franca, we referred to the whole process
as design, manufacture, build.
So if we start with the designstep, I mean this goes beyond
just creating design.
It does include engineering,evaluation of the design and
optimization.
(07:32):
Of course, you want thebuilding to be strong enough,
but you also don't want to usemore material than necessary, so
the optimization is quiteimportant, and so our clients
process vary quite a lot fromclient to client.
Some do all their work in oursoftware, so everything until
(07:55):
this manufacturer is done insideof our software, while others
myself included when I was aclient we integrate with other
external platforms, so thingslike BIM or CAD system, like
SOLIDWORKS, for example.
So then we have plugins to talkto these things, and regardless
(08:17):
of that workflow, in the end,though, it all goes through our
software, which then generatesthe CNC code for the machine, so
there is actually no manualprogramming of these.
This is all taken care of byour software.
So if you design a frame, youdon do any programming, that's,
that's done by the system, andthen it would generate drawings
(08:40):
as well, and we we tend to havea very paperless process, but
there's still some, likeauthorities or engineers, who
wants at least a pdf of thedrawings and there's also a
digital assembly instructionthat is sent to the roll forming
equipment for manufacturing.
And then you have the nextstage there, which would be the
(09:02):
manufacturing stage, and here ofcourse, our roll forming
machines comes into play.
So we do have multiple type ofmachines and it depends on what
you intend to build, what typeof machine you use.
So larger profiles or thickergauge is normally a larger
machine, for example for modular, it's very common with the
(09:24):
smaller ones, I would say.
So a typical rule for modularconstruction is it's quite small
.
So they only take up around 25by 6 meter of space and that
includes the decoiler.
So they're pretty small to putin the corner of your
manufacturing space.
And that process is quitesimple the manufacturing part.
You load the steel coil intothe decoiler and you select the
(09:48):
project, you want to run thefile and you're ready to go.
So then the machine wouldmanufacture those members and
all tooling is already done, sofor penetrations, for service
hole and so on.
And every screw connection isdimpled, which means it creates
(10:08):
a hole for the screw, but italso creates, like a dent, a pan
or a cavity what do you want tocall it so and that has two
purposes.
First is that the screw headwill be recessed into the frame,
so which allow for a flatsurface when you install plaster
and so on.
But it also allows you to clickthe frames together actually
before you.
(10:29):
You screw them off and, as Imentioned earlier, the on-screen
assembly instructions will bedisplayed on the machine so you
can see exactly what member goeswhere.
And then the build stage.
This is again different fromdifferent clients, so those who
(10:49):
are not modular.
You build a volumetric modulein the factory that would stack
and strap the stack of panelsand then that will be sent to
site, while modularmanufacturers normally would use
trolleys if they have a staticbuild, so for bigger buildings
that doesn't move with batchesof panels, that goes to each
(11:11):
station.
And then, if you have a palletsystem where you do smaller
modules, we found that most ofthem use the framing station for
both manufacturing and stand orerect the frames at the framing
station so it flows in,probably the starting point
normally of your modular factory, so they erect modules as they
(11:34):
come off the machine.
So it's a very streamlinedprocess and it's precision and
efficient in every step, fromdesign to final assembly.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Well, I'm sure this was the intent, but it sounds
outstandingly user-friendly.
What are the benefits ofcold-formed steel and what kind
of structures is CFS best for?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, of course there's a lot of benefits.
I can mention a few.
But so efficiency, as themanufacturing process is very
streamlined, it makes it veryfast to go from design to
finished frames, if you call orif you compare to alternatives.
And then of course it dependson what you compare with.
(12:21):
But if we compare with withtimber or wood, as you would say
in the us, is the durability,so it's a, it's resistant to
fire, pest and extreme weather,so mold and twisting and so on,
the accuracy, and so theautomated process.
I don't want to say eliminatetotal, but it reduced the human
(12:43):
errors.
It's very hard to actuallyassemble a frame the wrong way
once it's designed correctly.
Another big one is waste.
So if we compare to eitherlengths of wood or lengths of
structural steel or red steel,we have, I mean, a steel coil is
(13:05):
probably what is that in feet?
Around 3,000 feet, and we don'thave any waste in between the
members, so you can where onestart, the other stops for 3000
feet.
So the only waste you get isreally when you're in the end of
a call.
There might be a bit left thatdoesn't fit into a member.
(13:27):
The waste we do get would befrom tool punches.
So when we punch for service,all the things, but it's very
little waste.
If you compare that to to othermethods, I think you can
definitely say that core formsteel is is reducing your waste
quite a lot and strength toweight ratio it's very light and
(13:48):
that's of course in particularwith modular, if you compare to
traditional materials likeconcrete and timber and weather
structures makes it easier tolift, to transport and handle on
site, which sometimes also leadto that you can have fewer
other structural elementsbecause the weight of the core
form steel is is light.
And storage is another benefit.
(14:11):
You you can store about five toeight steel coils on top of
each other on the flat and thefive coils would fit in 10 to 15
square feet and that's actually15,000 linear feet of profile.
So compare that to when youwould have lengths of timber or
(14:32):
red steel.
It's very compact and as amodular manufacturer I like the
control of supply chain, so youget frames when you need them on
demand.
And then you asked whatstructures is best for.
So where it's called foam,steel is the main structure.
Of course low rise buildingsare very good, but mid rise
(14:54):
buildings I would say there's alimit around eight, eight levels
.
Even with eight levels youmight have a podium or, uh, some
other, but we see fully likeactually, buildings that are
seven story, that goes up, soit's.
It's generally not usedtraditionally in high rise
buildings.
Um, besides, if you do a hybridconstruction with other, like
(15:19):
you integrate the co-form steelwith structure steel or concrete
, then you can yeah, you can goas high as you build pretty much
.
I even think there was lightcash deal in this Burj Khalifa
in Dubai, but it's not thestructural part of the building.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Well, you predicted a little bit of my next question.
But taking the height intoconsideration, if we were to say
you know eight stories andbelow, are you of the opinion
that wood or welded steelstructures offer greater
benefits for certain types ofprojects?
You know again, within thatheight limit, or should we be
using coal-formed steel all overthe place, for for every
(15:56):
project?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
no, what we?
We think that cold form steeloffers advantages in, in over
welded structures and timber and, of course, in in in most
things, of course there are uh.
There are situations where we'reboth uh, wood and and well
structures have an edge over,like HD or cold form steel.
(16:20):
I'm not sure I can give youlike a project example, but me
myself, for example, I even usetimber to a degree in my
bathroom pots.
So when, for example, want toinstall a grab rod which was
tested for high load, I feltcomfortable about having a piece
(16:43):
of wood inside of the steelframes to screw onto.
And regarding welded structure,this is and has been the most
common solution for modularbases.
So we do have we see now a lotof projects using cold form
(17:03):
steel for many projects, butthere's no doubt there still are
plenty of modular projects outthere that really benefit from
welded structures.
I think you can see this way.
If you, if you can usecold-formed steel, I would, as
there are some substantialsavings to be made on the cost,
(17:24):
but I still think the weldedstructures will still be the
main one going forward.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Well, you've been with FrameCat, as you mentioned,
for several years.
What kind of trends have youseen in the industry when it
comes to cold-formed steel-basedbuildings?
How have those trends affectedthe capabilities of FrameCat's
software and its machines?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, so I mean a trend that we obviously are very
happy with is that we actuallysee more and more companies that
are moving into cold-formedsteel for modular and assemble
(18:11):
them manually, that we get moreand more that actually gets
their own equipment, because youcan get the frames on demand
with all tooling done.
Another trend that I touched ona little bit in your earlier
question is that we see moremodules that are being fully
built out of cold-formed steel.
So while earlier it was mostlyhybrid bases with weather
(18:33):
structures or concrete, we see alittle bit more of like a steel
or, sorry, core foam steelbasis.
Another trend, when it comes toboth modular and prefab, is
that we see a bit of verticalintegration.
Prefab is that we see a bit ofvertical integration, so
(18:55):
developers and builders actuallyset up their own manufacturing
just for their own needs.
So while they don't market inthese states, they have their
own factory to produce their ownmodules or their own panels.
And of course, this uptake hasled to us doing things that are
modular unique.
So we do have tools today thathas been requested from modular
(19:20):
clients that are unique formodular buildings, so like punch
tools that makes it easier torun plumbing around corners and
so on.
That makes it easier to runplumbing around corners and so
on.
And from a software point ofview, even myself I actually got
FrameKit to develop a plugin toSOLIDWORKS because we fully
(19:41):
designed everything inside ofSOLIDWORKS and I didn't want to
have like I wanted one truth,one place for all the design so
we can export the designstraight out of SOLIDWORKS
straight into the FrameCatsoftware.
We just do the machine code forus.
So it's been capabilities addedjust due to modular
construction.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Well, that's very cool.
It sounds like FrameCat isresponsive to its customers'
needs and what they're lookingfor.
I was going to ask as asoftware and machine supplier
are there other common questionsthat clients ask you or
challenges that they seem to befacing?
If so, what are they and howare they resolved?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yes, there's plenty of challenges.
In particular, when you'resetting up a new operation, you
will discover a lot of thingsthat you need to learn how to
handle.
So I think the wallet designand manufacturing process are
very well developed, as it'squite old and it's been used for
(20:41):
a long time.
Over the years we have learnedthat core form steel
manufacturing or operation ismuch larger than this.
So many clients have had todevelop their own methods to
handle this, most likely byusing third-party software,
sometimes multiple, to integrateand try to integrate it.
(21:03):
It's not always successful andthat's for things like
scheduling of your manufacturingand resource management.
We also see quality andcompliance is becoming more and
more important part, because youneed traceability of material.
An example of these in the USwe have ICC that a lot of
(21:24):
clients now comply with.
You've got inventory ofmaterial, project management
yeah, status tracking, delivery.
There's a lot of things thatcomes into play.
Then you say what we have doneto help them.
So that's the reason we, overthe last couple of years, have
(21:44):
developed a product managementsoftware called Pranked Nexa,
which we quite recentlyannounced.
So it's a few months old and tomy knowledge, this is the only
product management platform thatis just tailored for cold form
steel industry.
So, in short, what these do istakes care of all those things
that I mentioned earlier andgives you control and visibility
(22:07):
of your projects.
So from the design, which wealready handled well, to the
installation on site.
So there's much more than theactual design and manufacturing.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
For those who are working with CFS now and for
those who are considering it,what are some best practices
you've found relating to itshandling and use?
What should builders know thatthey may not know now?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So, in regards to handling, in general, core film
steel can be handled manually asit's low weight, but I would
still avoid making walls andpanels that are too long.
So at least for onsite uhbuilding, um, it's just a few
(22:55):
clicks in the design software.
So you, I would, I would try tohelp my, my uh assembly crew on
site by not doing too heavy andbig elements, if I can uh.
It also makes the shipping alot easier and, on the contrary,
if you are in, are in modularconstruction and you, if you
have access to lifting gear, Iwould do the opposite.
(23:17):
I will make the walls as longas possible so I eliminate
joints because that will speedup my assembly process.
So the size of the element isis important for for the
handling and also it may not bea big thing for smaller
buildings, but in biggerbuildings I would also use the
(23:37):
zoning function in our softwareso I can ensure that every panel
is manufactured and stacked inorder that they are needed for
the install.
So I would plan my installationsequence because I know that
would save time on site.
It's a lot easier to do in thesoftware than to have to work
that out on site and whatbuilders should know that they
(24:03):
may not.
While we like that, we have highprecision and that is exact
design For new builders.
This is sometimes they used tobe able to play around on site.
If they have a concrete basethat is uneven or not properly
(24:25):
done With cold foam steel, yourequire a bit more more.
You need to do it right fromthe beginning, so to draw it up
and really check the, theconcrete base.
So it's, it's good.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Um, it's an advice I can give because it will be the
way it's designed you mentionedearlier some trends with the use
of cold formed steel, howthings are on an uptick.
What do do you foreseehappening in the CFS-based
modular construction market overthe next few years?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
We already see a big push for ADUs.
They call it a bit different inEurope, australia and in the US,
but we see that has grown a lotboth in the US and in Canada
the United States and Canada soI think we will see a continuous
(25:18):
growth of the ADUs and I thinkthis is linked to the housing
shortage that a lot of countriesare experiencing at the moment,
and this may be one of thesolutions of course, not the
only one but it will ease thepressure a little bit.
Also, affordable buildings islinked to the same issue.
(25:41):
It's a bit of a buzzword at themoment, but it has gained a lot
of attention, and governmentsand everyone is really talking
about affordable housing and Ireally believe that modular is
going to play a big part of this, and I also think coal from
(26:10):
steel will be an importantfactor as well, because it's's
very fast process and low costcompared to alternatives.
I see another sector that is isgrowing.
I found that our older clientsum get more and more into this
and that is internally fit outon drivers, so more of that is
now done as as prefabricatedelements than just do it on site
(26:32):
, and I think what drives thesea little bit is that building
authorities has started tobecome a bit firmer on receiving
accurate as built drawings withBIM and things in place, and
also it requires materialtraceability, and, as this is
something you get our systemcomply with without any effort,
(26:55):
really I think that's what makesthem successful in this area.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Well, Andreas, this has been great.
I really appreciate your time.
Before I let you go, I see thatFrameCAD is going to be
exhibiting at MBI's upcomingWorld of Modular event in Las
Vegas in April.
What do you look forward tomost about that event?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yes, we are.
We're going to exhibit it.
It's actually in my job.
That's a highlight of the year,I'd say.
We did exhibit last year aswell in Orlando, and I also went
to the World of Modular inBrussels, and I found both those
events to be to be great.
What I'm looking forward to?
(27:37):
Last year we met many clients onthis event, much more than I
actually anticipated, and so Ireally look forward again to go
there and speak with them.
You get to see a lot of peoplewithin a short time, which is
which is good.
I also hope to have enough timeto go and see as many breakout
sessions as possible.
I particularly like those wherespeakers share the lessons
(28:01):
learned from earlier projects.
I found them very, veryinteresting and valuable.
If I can apply that to my ownprojects, I may not have to
commit the same mistakes or Iwill learn.
So I hope to be able to see afew of these, and I would, of
course, also like to take theopportunity to invite anyone to
(28:22):
read out to me in the conferenceif they want to talk about
Coreform, Steel and Modular.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Andreas, thank you so much.
I really appreciate your timetoday and I look forward to
seeing you in April in Las Vegas.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
My name is John McMullen and this has been
another episode of InsideModular, the podcast for
commercial modular construction.
Until next time.
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