September 9, 2024 • 24 mins
What if affordable multifamily housing could be built more efficiently and with less neighborhood disruption? Gwen Noyes, vice president and COO of GreenStaxx, draws on her wealth of experience in architecture and urban development—and her deep New England roots—as she discusses GreenStaxx's energy-efficient modular housing models. You'll hear firsthand about successful prototypes, like GreenStaxx's triple-deckers in Cambridge and Lowell, that promise to streamline construction and reduce costs.
Gwen also discusses the initial skepticism surrounding modular methods and how increasing acceptance is paving the way for new projects in Massachusetts and Vermont. Finally, Gwen shares GreenStaxx's latest endeavors and their innovative approaches to sustainable and efficient building practices, providing a glimpse into the future of commercial modular construction in New England.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Inside Modular, the podcast of
commercial modular constructionbrought to you by the Modular
Building Institute.
Welcome everyone.
My name is John McMullen.
I'm the marketing director hereat MBI.
Today I'm joined by Gwen Noyes,vice president and COO at
GreenStacks.
Gwen is here to talk about thedevelopment of her company's
(00:22):
unique approach to multifamilyhousing.
Gwen welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hi John, how are you?
I'm great.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
How are you today?
Just fine, thank you.
So tell me about yourself, gwen.
What's your background and howdid you come to be one of the
leaders at GreenStacks?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
My background.
I have a degree in architecturefrom the University of
Pennsylvania and I've beenworking in housing since in the
70s and my partner Arthur and Ihave been both designers and
developers of housing in thattime, with a real priority in
(00:59):
doing urbantransportation-oriented work and
making it as energy efficientas possible.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Tell me about GreenStacks itself.
You guys have your own systemfor designing modular projects.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yes, we have.
My husband, arthur, hasactually a patent on a whole
process for building multifamilyhousing with modules, or it's a
modular design, so it can bedone in just as a conventional
construction, also dependingupon the location and what's
available in the way of, youknow, capacity in of factories.
(01:38):
But it's a system that canrevolutionize the whole process
of designing and buildingmultifamily housing and it's
beginning to take off.
It's taken a while, but thewhole process is something that
is high quality design.
That's the main thing.
(01:58):
My husband, I can say for one,awards for his capacity as a
designer and this system is verygood for the multifamily
building industry If we can getmodular building going in the
way it should be in this country.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I certainly hope we can.
I certainly hope we can.
Speaking of the industry, I dowant to get back the, the system
that you developed and how thatworks.
Um, but just to give a littlebackground, can you tell me
about the, the multi-familybuilding market in new england?
You guys are based in inmassachusetts, is that right?
Right?
So well what trends have youbeen seeing in new england and
(02:40):
in massachusetts?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I think there's a crying need for more.
We live in Massachusetts, wework in mostly in Massachusetts.
However, we're also havingmultiple conversations with
Vermont and the housing industryin Massachusetts is very
(03:02):
expensive to build.
Housing is expensive, the needfor it is crying and the process
for getting approvals is alsoarduous, and I think this is one
of the issues that comes upagain and again.
We have a project that has beenin the permitting process and
appeals for years.
(03:24):
That is.
You know it's just a shame.
So you know it's like we can'tget through the many processes
that make it much more expensive.
So New England is really aposter child for the housing
problem in this country Veryexpensive, very difficult to
(03:44):
permit and too long a process.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
So tell me about the GreenStacks solution.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Okay, so the prototype that I'm working on
particularly this is part of theGreenStacks company, but it's
really a design that is unique.
It's a triple-decker that a fewyears ago I felt like if we
want to get over the hump ofpermitting projects and look at
(04:16):
what is needed in most cities, alot of cities in New England
have urban areas downtown wherewhere there's been some
demolition of old, olderbuildings, leaving pockets,
leaving holes in the urbanfabric, and triple deckers have
been a traditional building formin in this part of the world
(04:39):
and we, it just seemed to melike, without a whole lot of
permitting falderal, filling insome of these gaps would be a
way of proving the value ofmodular building because it's
quick to put in, there's verylittle nuisance in the
(05:01):
neighborhood a total nuisance inthe neighborhood from the
standpoint of security.
When you have the boxes come inand they're sealed up and so on
, there's much less risk ofnuisance or fire or any of those
things and the whole processjust makes so much sense.
So we did a prototype inCambridge that the owner is
(05:26):
thrilled with.
It was high quality, she'sgetting great rents, it came
together quickly after it wasdelivered and we're just
finishing one now in Lowell witha double triple decker, and so
what we've found is that we canmake this single triple-decker
into a prototype that can bemultiplied as a double
(05:49):
triple-decker or even a rowhouse kind of configuration.
The plans work for that.
So the need to redesign a wholelot is totally minimized, and
in fact we're now negotiatingwith a fellow who wants to do
three of them on the Cape andthe quality is so good.
He came and looked at whatwe're finishing now and he said
(06:11):
this is condo quality.
Well, we're doing it as rentals, and the one we're doing in
Lowell is rental, but he wantsto do it as condos on the Cape
and this is something that withvery minimum falderal, we can do
more.
Somebody is asking us to checkit out for a site in Worcester.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
So this is one way that you can minimize the amount
of zoning and designing and thewhole thing can be can be
expedited this is going to be amaybe a silly question, but just
so I'm clear when you saytriple decker, you mean like a
freestanding building with threefloors.
(06:55):
Is each floor its own livingunit or is it one big unit?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
the triple decker is is a pretty standard new england
form, uh, with a unit on eachfloor, and the one that we have
designed is it has a two-bedroom, two-bathroom unit on the
ground floor that lends itselfto being ADA accessible, and
then the second and third floorare three bedrooms and two
(07:21):
bathrooms.
It could have a balcony.
We so far haven't done that,although it's entirely possible
to add a balcony.
The one we did in Cambridge wasPassive House certified and has
solar panels on the roof andit's ADA accessible.
(07:41):
We did have the ground floorhas somebody who uses it in a
wheelchair, so there are many,many ways of working with it and
, as I said, you can double ittogether and have a marriage
wall.
That increases the energyefficiency of it, but we have,
(08:06):
because of the way we'vearranged the windows.
Every room has a window and youknow, nice exposure.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I love a window.
Who doesn't love a window?
I wanted to ask you aboutPassive House, since you brought
it up.
Talk to me more about PassiveHouses in general.
What's required to get thatcertification?
I know the solar panelscertainly must help, but how do
they?
How does how?
Does a regular house become apassive house and what's
different about them?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Well, a passive house is a way of describing an
extremely energy efficient home,and it's very difficult to
retrofit a passive house.
In fact, where I'm sitting,we've done retrofitting to make
it be net zero.
But an old house can't be madevery easily into a passive house
(08:55):
.
Passive house means that theenergy that is used to heat it
or cool it is basically zero Imean very close to zero and that
is achieved through the ways inwhich the passive part of it is
(09:17):
where the sun and wind and coldand so on are managed by the
construction with large amountsof insulation and making sure
that the building is tight andthat the windows are high
quality and all that.
And then you have to have aHVAC system which brings in the
(09:38):
right amount of air and makesure that, as air is coming in,
if it's winter, that it's heatedup by the heat that's already
being exhausted.
So there's a heat exchangerthat saves the energy that you
have from heating so that it canbe heating the fresh air that's
coming in.
So all these things aremeasured and accounted for.
(10:01):
Before you build, you have togo through theoretical tests
that certified consultants cando for you to tell you whether
you have too many windows orwhether you need more heat
exchanger energy, that kind ofthing.
So it's quite a process.
(10:21):
You know.
This is what we need to do as acountry.
We need to be thinking about howwe can make buildings more
energy efficient and, um, if Ican rant on a little bit, the um
, the work that we're doing inthe building that we're
currently finishing in Lowell.
We could not afford to do allthe extra work and consultants
(10:46):
and so on that we used inCambridge for the building that
we passed with flying colors asa Passive House certified
building in Cambridge, but inLowell the kinds of rents we
could get were not the same andwe couldn't justify it.
But just the other day we gotback our tests for the HERS
(11:08):
rating and HERS is Home EnergyEfficiency Rating rating and the
required number, which is nowbeing revised, but it was 52, I
believe, and it's being reviseddown to 40, maybe 45.
And the HERS rating for passivehouse is 32.
The HERS ratings for theapartments in the building that
(11:33):
I'm just now finishing were 35,.
Just now finishing we're 35, 36, just a bit above the HERS
ratings required for passivehouse.
And this was without doing allthat certification work.
So we are achieving really goodHERS numbers anyway with this
(11:54):
modular building that we'redoing, that we've just finishing
in in Lowell.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So tell me about the, the, the building process
itself.
What are you doing differently,both for your original
prototype in Lowell and for thecertified passive house in
Cambridge?
Are there specific buildingmethods or processes that you
use to become, that help youbecome and meet those passive
(12:22):
house requirements?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Well, yes, and our architects could be very, very
specific about this, but it islargely insulation insulation
below the basement, basementfloor, insulation outside the
foundation walls, insulation,you know, in the walls and
outside the you know outside thebox, and insulation in the roof
(12:47):
.
So insulation between units,insulation, um, you know above
the, you know roof and below,where the solar panels are going
to be.
That's one thing.
And then we used triple glazedwindows in Cambridge and only
double glazed windows in Lowell.
(13:08):
My understanding is that thedouble glazed windows are
beginning to be such a qualitythat they can also pass the
requirements for passive house,but I haven't tried that yet.
So, and then the HVAC systemhas to be measured, also for a
passive house, as I wasmentioning the air exchanges,
(13:31):
how many air exchanges and whatkind of heat exchange can happen
with the exhausting air.
So there's just a lot to it.
And as I think the nationalinclination or what people who
are trying to bring down our CO2emissions as a whole realize,
(13:56):
that buildings are, I think, 40%of the CO2 emissions generally
speaking, and if we can do morepassive houseware basically
cooking and breathing is all youneed to keep the place warm in
the winter that would be a hugechange, a huge improvement in
(14:18):
the use of energy in thiscountry.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
That would be rather revolutionary, I would think.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
How about the manufacturing process itself?
Where are your buildingsmanufactured?
How do you get them to site?
Is it a long distance betweenthe factory and the endpoint?
Can you talk about that, themanufacturing process, a little
bit.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
So we've worked with two factories in the two
buildings that we built.
One of them was in Maine andthe other one was in Canada.
Both of them are very able toprovide the quality of
construction that you need to dowhat we're talking about, as
(15:07):
you can imagine, in Canada.
The energy requirements arevery real for them, and the
factory we worked with I guess Idon't know whether we wanna
mention names or not, but it's avery good factory, very
qualified, and we were veryhappy with the product that they
(15:29):
provided.
And the quality of the productthat we did we got in Maine was
also very high, and so one ofthe things that you find is a
limitation is are they availablewhen you want the building?
How long ahead do you need toget in line to get the product
(15:52):
that you want?
So that becomes an issue, andthat's something that we have to
bear in mind.
Now we're going to be.
We're working it looks likewe're working with the look in
the US company.
I'm optimistic that we're goingto be able to do that, partly
(16:12):
because they have moreavailability on their line than
the Canadian one and partlybecause some of the funding
that's available now and thegroups that are trying to
consider module building havefunding requirements to be built
in the US and with all theequipment bought in the US too.
(16:37):
So this is another reality thatwe need to work with and I
should say there is historicallynothing like the European
priority.
In Europe, the priority tobuild modularly has been in
place for a number of years.
(16:57):
To build modularly has been inplace for a number of years and
the capacity to do largebuildings in Europe is
unparalleled in this country.
Anyway, at the moment we'refeeling like again, the
triple-decker modular form isattractive to modular companies
because they can build it prettyquickly, they can fit it in
(17:19):
between bigger projects andespecially if they can do it in
multiples if they can do do one,get it straight and do the next
one, without a whole lot ofshop drawings and so on that's
very attractive to them.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So we think that this is a good place to be housing
is such a huge issue right now Iknow in New England, you've
described it in Massachusettsand around the country around
the world.
States and big cities in the USare grappling with how to
address it.
Do you think that we canincorporate more passive
building strategies intoaffordable homes?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yes, Well funny, you should ask me that because I'm
from Cambridge and I justrecently took myself off the
Affordable Housing Trust inCambridge, massachusetts, where
I was happily working for Idon't know up to 30 years.
I can't even remember from thebeginning of it, from the
(18:16):
beginning of the AffordableHousing Trust, and I'm very
proud of Cambridge for the factthat it has made a priority of
the new.
I think every new building foraffordable housing in Cambridge
is being built to a passivestandard standard.
(18:41):
This is amazing and maybe onlypossible in a city that has the
kind of industrial or commercialbase, tax base that we have in
Cambridge.
But it's, you know, a long-terminvestment for any community to
say, okay, we're building,we're building affordable
housing, and then doing it theright way to begin with, and if
they can make that choice, itwill pay off in the long run.
(19:04):
And I can't.
You know every town has its ownbudgetary constraints, but I
think there also are beginningto be federal incentives for
that kind of consideration too.
It's just the right way to go.
Long-term, the cost of buildinga very high quality building
(19:27):
from modular construction canbeat conventional construction
from an energy standpoint andbeing, if not passive house, at
least very, very energyefficient with hers ratings, et
cetera.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
I'm going to take us back to the beginning of this
conversation just a little bit.
Go back to the project thatyou've built.
How did you get involved?
Am I correct in saying that adeveloper got in touch with you,
then you got in touch with afactory?
Was that the progression ofthings or how?
How did that work?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
well, it happens that we we built modularly a
building in newton mass.
That has been very successfuland one time, at one point, a
young developer asked to take atour of it and, uh, I showed him
what we've done and he wasimpressed and he and I then were
(20:20):
in touch and I decided thatbuilding a triple-decker was
something I'd like to do myselfas a developer.
And I got in touch with him.
He was working in Lowell and hesaid I have a site that would
be appropriate for the doubletriple decker.
(20:40):
And so we, we have partnered wehe, he and I partnered to do
the, the Lowell project, and doit as a, as a double triple
decker.
And we would like to do morework and we're getting inquiries
from from other places.
We would like to do it eitheras consultants or possibly as
(21:01):
developers, but we'd like tomake it be something that people
come to us and say show us howto do this and and make it
happen are you finding that manyof the people you talk to
understand the modular process?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
are you having to do some education there?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
yes, I think people are astounded that, a it's
higher quality than conventionalconstruction, b that it can be
done in many places and lessexpensively.
People just you know, I think,I think the construction
industry has been so hampered Iguess I'll use that word by
(21:42):
convention and by.
You know hearing, probably,some of the bad stories, or you
know that years and years ago,ticky, tacky houses or something
like that, you know.
But we, anybody who's who'swatched what's been going on in
(22:03):
europe, can understand thatwe're really behind the eight
ball here in terms of doing whatwe need to do for affordable,
high quality um housing.
And you know the, the, thenotion of cheaper, better,
faster seems like it's a mirageto many people.
But it's not.
If you, if you're, if you'reknowing, if you're dealing with
(22:23):
the with, with the realities of,of modular building well, it
seems like green stacks is doingall the right things.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
It's building exactly .
You know what massachusetts islooking for, what new england is
looking for, so kudos to youguys.
What's next for green stacks?
What New England is looking for?
So kudos to you guys.
What's next for GreenStacks?
Do you have any?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
projects on the horizon.
Well, I alluded to the factthat there's some a developer in
Massachusetts, who has asked meto work on three more versions
of what we've done in Lowell.
So we're starting to negotiatethree more versions of what
we've done in Lowell.
So we're starting to negotiate.
(23:04):
We're in early negotiationswith one of the factories I
mentioned.
To think about that.
We are talking with a group ofpeople in Vermont who have
actually a very large project.
This is again in the initialconversations, but they have a
very large piece of propertythat would be a very wonderful
(23:30):
illustration of what can be doneand we're having ongoing
conversations about that.
We're also talking with peoplein Vermont about affordable
housing.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
It sounds like you're doing all the right things,
Gwen.
I really appreciate your timetoday.
Thank you so much.
I really look forward tohearing more and seeing more
from GreenStacks soon.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Thank you so much.
I enjoyed talking with you andbest of luck for your work.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
It's important so much I enjoyed talking with you
and best of luck for your work.
It's important.
Thank you very much.
My name is John McMullen andthis has been another episode of
Inside Modular, the podcast ofCommercial Modular Construction.
Until next time.
Hello and welcome to Inside Modular, the podcast of
commercial modular constructionbrought to you by the Modular
Building Institute.
Welcome everyone.
My name is John McMullen.
I'm the marketing director hereat MBI.
Today I'm joined by Gwen Noyes,vice president and COO at
GreenStacks.
Gwen is here to talk about thedevelopment of her company's
(00:22):
unique approach to multifamilyhousing.
Gwen welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hi John, how are you?
I'm great.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
How are you today?
Just fine, thank you.
So tell me about yourself, gwen.
What's your background and howdid you come to be one of the
leaders at GreenStacks?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
My background.
I have a degree in architecturefrom the University of
Pennsylvania and I've beenworking in housing since in the
70s and my partner Arthur and Ihave been both designers and
developers of housing in thattime, with a real priority in
(00:59):
doing urbantransportation-oriented work and
making it as energy efficientas possible.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Tell me about GreenStacks itself.
You guys have your own systemfor designing modular projects.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yes, we have.
My husband, arthur, hasactually a patent on a whole
process for building multifamilyhousing with modules, or it's a
modular design, so it can bedone in just as a conventional
construction, also dependingupon the location and what's
available in the way of, youknow, capacity in of factories.
(01:38):
But it's a system that canrevolutionize the whole process
of designing and buildingmultifamily housing and it's
beginning to take off.
It's taken a while, but thewhole process is something that
is high quality design.
That's the main thing.
(01:58):
My husband, I can say for one,awards for his capacity as a
designer and this system is verygood for the multifamily
building industry If we can getmodular building going in the
way it should be in this country.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I certainly hope we can.
I certainly hope we can.
Speaking of the industry, I dowant to get back the, the system
that you developed and how thatworks.
Um, but just to give a littlebackground, can you tell me
about the, the multi-familybuilding market in new england?
You guys are based in inmassachusetts, is that right?
Right?
So well what trends have youbeen seeing in new england and
(02:40):
in massachusetts?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I think there's a crying need for more.
We live in Massachusetts, wework in mostly in Massachusetts.
However, we're also havingmultiple conversations with
Vermont and the housing industryin Massachusetts is very
(03:02):
expensive to build.
Housing is expensive, the needfor it is crying and the process
for getting approvals is alsoarduous, and I think this is one
of the issues that comes upagain and again.
We have a project that has beenin the permitting process and
appeals for years.
(03:24):
That is.
You know it's just a shame.
So you know it's like we can'tget through the many processes
that make it much more expensive.
So New England is really aposter child for the housing
problem in this country Veryexpensive, very difficult to
(03:44):
permit and too long a process.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
So tell me about the GreenStacks solution.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Okay, so the prototype that I'm working on
particularly this is part of theGreenStacks company, but it's
really a design that is unique.
It's a triple-decker that a fewyears ago I felt like if we
want to get over the hump ofpermitting projects and look at
(04:16):
what is needed in most cities, alot of cities in New England
have urban areas downtown wherewhere there's been some
demolition of old, olderbuildings, leaving pockets,
leaving holes in the urbanfabric, and triple deckers have
been a traditional building formin in this part of the world
(04:39):
and we, it just seemed to melike, without a whole lot of
permitting falderal, filling insome of these gaps would be a
way of proving the value ofmodular building because it's
quick to put in, there's verylittle nuisance in the
(05:01):
neighborhood a total nuisance inthe neighborhood from the
standpoint of security.
When you have the boxes come inand they're sealed up and so on
, there's much less risk ofnuisance or fire or any of those
things and the whole processjust makes so much sense.
So we did a prototype inCambridge that the owner is
(05:26):
thrilled with.
It was high quality, she'sgetting great rents, it came
together quickly after it wasdelivered and we're just
finishing one now in Lowell witha double triple decker, and so
what we've found is that we canmake this single triple-decker
into a prototype that can bemultiplied as a double
(05:49):
triple-decker or even a rowhouse kind of configuration.
The plans work for that.
So the need to redesign a wholelot is totally minimized, and
in fact we're now negotiatingwith a fellow who wants to do
three of them on the Cape andthe quality is so good.
He came and looked at whatwe're finishing now and he said
(06:11):
this is condo quality.
Well, we're doing it as rentals, and the one we're doing in
Lowell is rental, but he wantsto do it as condos on the Cape
and this is something that withvery minimum falderal, we can do
more.
Somebody is asking us to checkit out for a site in Worcester.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
So this is one way that you can minimize the amount
of zoning and designing and thewhole thing can be can be
expedited this is going to be amaybe a silly question, but just
so I'm clear when you saytriple decker, you mean like a
freestanding building with threefloors.
(06:55):
Is each floor its own livingunit or is it one big unit?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
the triple decker is is a pretty standard new england
form, uh, with a unit on eachfloor, and the one that we have
designed is it has a two-bedroom, two-bathroom unit on the
ground floor that lends itselfto being ADA accessible, and
then the second and third floorare three bedrooms and two
(07:21):
bathrooms.
It could have a balcony.
We so far haven't done that,although it's entirely possible
to add a balcony.
The one we did in Cambridge wasPassive House certified and has
solar panels on the roof andit's ADA accessible.
(07:41):
We did have the ground floorhas somebody who uses it in a
wheelchair, so there are many,many ways of working with it and
, as I said, you can double ittogether and have a marriage
wall.
That increases the energyefficiency of it, but we have,
(08:06):
because of the way we'vearranged the windows.
Every room has a window and youknow, nice exposure.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I love a window.
Who doesn't love a window?
I wanted to ask you aboutPassive House, since you brought
it up.
Talk to me more about PassiveHouses in general.
What's required to get thatcertification?
I know the solar panelscertainly must help, but how do
they?
How does how?
Does a regular house become apassive house and what's
different about them?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Well, a passive house is a way of describing an
extremely energy efficient home,and it's very difficult to
retrofit a passive house.
In fact, where I'm sitting,we've done retrofitting to make
it be net zero.
But an old house can't be madevery easily into a passive house
(08:55):
.
Passive house means that theenergy that is used to heat it
or cool it is basically zero Imean very close to zero and that
is achieved through the ways inwhich the passive part of it is
(09:17):
where the sun and wind and coldand so on are managed by the
construction with large amountsof insulation and making sure
that the building is tight andthat the windows are high
quality and all that.
And then you have to have aHVAC system which brings in the
(09:38):
right amount of air and makesure that, as air is coming in,
if it's winter, that it's heatedup by the heat that's already
being exhausted.
So there's a heat exchangerthat saves the energy that you
have from heating so that it canbe heating the fresh air that's
coming in.
So all these things aremeasured and accounted for.
(10:01):
Before you build, you have togo through theoretical tests
that certified consultants cando for you to tell you whether
you have too many windows orwhether you need more heat
exchanger energy, that kind ofthing.
So it's quite a process.
(10:21):
You know.
This is what we need to do as acountry.
We need to be thinking about howwe can make buildings more
energy efficient and, um, if Ican rant on a little bit, the um
, the work that we're doing inthe building that we're
currently finishing in Lowell.
We could not afford to do allthe extra work and consultants
(10:46):
and so on that we used inCambridge for the building that
we passed with flying colors asa Passive House certified
building in Cambridge, but inLowell the kinds of rents we
could get were not the same andwe couldn't justify it.
But just the other day we gotback our tests for the HERS
(11:08):
rating and HERS is Home EnergyEfficiency Rating rating and the
required number, which is nowbeing revised, but it was 52, I
believe, and it's being reviseddown to 40, maybe 45.
And the HERS rating for passivehouse is 32.
The HERS ratings for theapartments in the building that
(11:33):
I'm just now finishing were 35,.
Just now finishing we're 35, 36, just a bit above the HERS
ratings required for passivehouse.
And this was without doing allthat certification work.
So we are achieving really goodHERS numbers anyway with this
(11:54):
modular building that we'redoing, that we've just finishing
in in Lowell.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So tell me about the, the, the building process
itself.
What are you doing differently,both for your original
prototype in Lowell and for thecertified passive house in
Cambridge?
Are there specific buildingmethods or processes that you
use to become, that help youbecome and meet those passive
(12:22):
house requirements?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Well, yes, and our architects could be very, very
specific about this, but it islargely insulation insulation
below the basement, basementfloor, insulation outside the
foundation walls, insulation,you know, in the walls and
outside the you know outside thebox, and insulation in the roof
(12:47):
.
So insulation between units,insulation, um, you know above
the, you know roof and below,where the solar panels are going
to be.
That's one thing.
And then we used triple glazedwindows in Cambridge and only
double glazed windows in Lowell.
(13:08):
My understanding is that thedouble glazed windows are
beginning to be such a qualitythat they can also pass the
requirements for passive house,but I haven't tried that yet.
So, and then the HVAC systemhas to be measured, also for a
passive house, as I wasmentioning the air exchanges,
(13:31):
how many air exchanges and whatkind of heat exchange can happen
with the exhausting air.
So there's just a lot to it.
And as I think the nationalinclination or what people who
are trying to bring down our CO2emissions as a whole realize,
(13:56):
that buildings are, I think, 40%of the CO2 emissions generally
speaking, and if we can do morepassive houseware basically
cooking and breathing is all youneed to keep the place warm in
the winter that would be a hugechange, a huge improvement in
(14:18):
the use of energy in thiscountry.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
That would be rather revolutionary, I would think.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
How about the manufacturing process itself?
Where are your buildingsmanufactured?
How do you get them to site?
Is it a long distance betweenthe factory and the endpoint?
Can you talk about that, themanufacturing process, a little
bit.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
So we've worked with two factories in the two
buildings that we built.
One of them was in Maine andthe other one was in Canada.
Both of them are very able toprovide the quality of
construction that you need to dowhat we're talking about, as
(15:07):
you can imagine, in Canada.
The energy requirements arevery real for them, and the
factory we worked with I guess Idon't know whether we wanna
mention names or not, but it's avery good factory, very
qualified, and we were veryhappy with the product that they
(15:29):
provided.
And the quality of the productthat we did we got in Maine was
also very high, and so one ofthe things that you find is a
limitation is are they availablewhen you want the building?
How long ahead do you need toget in line to get the product
(15:52):
that you want?
So that becomes an issue, andthat's something that we have to
bear in mind.
Now we're going to be.
We're working it looks likewe're working with the look in
the US company.
I'm optimistic that we're goingto be able to do that, partly
(16:12):
because they have moreavailability on their line than
the Canadian one and partlybecause some of the funding
that's available now and thegroups that are trying to
consider module building havefunding requirements to be built
in the US and with all theequipment bought in the US too.
(16:37):
So this is another reality thatwe need to work with and I
should say there is historicallynothing like the European
priority.
In Europe, the priority tobuild modularly has been in
place for a number of years.
(16:57):
To build modularly has been inplace for a number of years and
the capacity to do largebuildings in Europe is
unparalleled in this country.
Anyway, at the moment we'refeeling like again, the
triple-decker modular form isattractive to modular companies
because they can build it prettyquickly, they can fit it in
(17:19):
between bigger projects andespecially if they can do it in
multiples if they can do do one,get it straight and do the next
one, without a whole lot ofshop drawings and so on that's
very attractive to them.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So we think that this is a good place to be housing
is such a huge issue right now Iknow in New England, you've
described it in Massachusettsand around the country around
the world.
States and big cities in the USare grappling with how to
address it.
Do you think that we canincorporate more passive
building strategies intoaffordable homes?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yes, Well funny, you should ask me that because I'm
from Cambridge and I justrecently took myself off the
Affordable Housing Trust inCambridge, massachusetts, where
I was happily working for Idon't know up to 30 years.
I can't even remember from thebeginning of it, from the
(18:16):
beginning of the AffordableHousing Trust, and I'm very
proud of Cambridge for the factthat it has made a priority of
the new.
I think every new building foraffordable housing in Cambridge
is being built to a passivestandard standard.
(18:41):
This is amazing and maybe onlypossible in a city that has the
kind of industrial or commercialbase, tax base that we have in
Cambridge.
But it's, you know, a long-terminvestment for any community to
say, okay, we're building,we're building affordable
housing, and then doing it theright way to begin with, and if
they can make that choice, itwill pay off in the long run.
(19:04):
And I can't.
You know every town has its ownbudgetary constraints, but I
think there also are beginningto be federal incentives for
that kind of consideration too.
It's just the right way to go.
Long-term, the cost of buildinga very high quality building
(19:27):
from modular construction canbeat conventional construction
from an energy standpoint andbeing, if not passive house, at
least very, very energyefficient with hers ratings, et
cetera.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
I'm going to take us back to the beginning of this
conversation just a little bit.
Go back to the project thatyou've built.
How did you get involved?
Am I correct in saying that adeveloper got in touch with you,
then you got in touch with afactory?
Was that the progression ofthings or how?
How did that work?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
well, it happens that we we built modularly a
building in newton mass.
That has been very successfuland one time, at one point, a
young developer asked to take atour of it and, uh, I showed him
what we've done and he wasimpressed and he and I then were
(20:20):
in touch and I decided thatbuilding a triple-decker was
something I'd like to do myselfas a developer.
And I got in touch with him.
He was working in Lowell and hesaid I have a site that would
be appropriate for the doubletriple decker.
(20:40):
And so we, we have partnered wehe, he and I partnered to do
the, the Lowell project, and doit as a, as a double triple
decker.
And we would like to do morework and we're getting inquiries
from from other places.
We would like to do it eitheras consultants or possibly as
(21:01):
developers, but we'd like tomake it be something that people
come to us and say show us howto do this and and make it
happen are you finding that manyof the people you talk to
understand the modular process?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
are you having to do some education there?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
yes, I think people are astounded that, a it's
higher quality than conventionalconstruction, b that it can be
done in many places and lessexpensively.
People just you know, I think,I think the construction
industry has been so hampered Iguess I'll use that word by
(21:42):
convention and by.
You know hearing, probably,some of the bad stories, or you
know that years and years ago,ticky, tacky houses or something
like that, you know.
But we, anybody who's who'swatched what's been going on in
(22:03):
europe, can understand thatwe're really behind the eight
ball here in terms of doing whatwe need to do for affordable,
high quality um housing.
And you know the, the, thenotion of cheaper, better,
faster seems like it's a mirageto many people.
But it's not.
If you, if you're, if you'reknowing, if you're dealing with
(22:23):
the with, with the realities of,of modular building well, it
seems like green stacks is doingall the right things.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
It's building exactly .
You know what massachusetts islooking for, what new england is
looking for, so kudos to youguys.
What's next for green stacks?
What New England is looking for?
So kudos to you guys.
What's next for GreenStacks?
Do you have any?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
projects on the horizon.
Well, I alluded to the factthat there's some a developer in
Massachusetts, who has asked meto work on three more versions
of what we've done in Lowell.
So we're starting to negotiatethree more versions of what
we've done in Lowell.
So we're starting to negotiate.
(23:04):
We're in early negotiationswith one of the factories I
mentioned.
To think about that.
We are talking with a group ofpeople in Vermont who have
actually a very large project.
This is again in the initialconversations, but they have a
very large piece of propertythat would be a very wonderful
(23:30):
illustration of what can be doneand we're having ongoing
conversations about that.
We're also talking with peoplein Vermont about affordable
housing.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
It sounds like you're doing all the right things,
Gwen.
I really appreciate your timetoday.
Thank you so much.
I really look forward tohearing more and seeing more
from GreenStacks soon.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Thank you so much.
I enjoyed talking with you andbest of luck for your work.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
It's important so much I enjoyed talking with you
and best of luck for your work.
It's important.
Thank you very much.
My name is John McMullen andthis has been another episode of
Inside Modular, the podcast ofCommercial Modular Construction.
Until next time.
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