May 16, 2025 • 22 mins
Rory Rubin, founder and CEO of SI Container Builds, shares her journey from clinical social worker to modular construction innovator and discusses two of her company's groundbreaking container-based projects in Chicago. Rory explores how shipping container construction offers sustainable, cost-effective building solutions as she details her recent experiences navigating municipal approvals and changing perceptions about this innovative construction method.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Inside Modular, the podcast of
commercial modular constructionbrought to you by the Modular
Building Institute.
Welcome everyone.
My name is John McMullen.
I'm the marketing director hereat MBI.
Today I'm joined by Rory Rubin,founder and CEO at SI Container
Builds.
Rory is here to talk about hercompany's latest container-based
(00:21):
projects and how states, citiesand municipalities can get
started with their owncontainer-based projects.
Roy, welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hi John.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Thanks for having me.
It's my pleasure.
It's my pleasure.
Tell me about yourself, roy,what's your background and
what's the story behind SIContainer Builds.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Well, my background and the story are very mutually
exclusive.
They're very different.
I started off as a clinicalsocial worker.
I did work within Alzheimer'sdisease research and in clinical
practice, and so people arelike, well, that's very weird,
like how could you ever do whatyou're doing now, which is run a
modular factory?
And I said it's actually notthat different because
(01:01):
ultimately I'm working withpeople.
So working with people kind oftransfers from social work right
to this business model.
I started SI Container Buildsabout six and a half years ago
because I really wanted to dosomething a little different in
my career.
I came from a family ofarchitects and construction
people and I always thought thatwas fabulous and cool and I
(01:24):
wanted to live more sustainably.
And ultimately I fell in lovewith the shipping container and
I turned to my husband one dayand I said you know what?
Been a management consultantfor a long time, I really want
to start a business.
And he thought it was a littlecrazy and he said, okay, let's
just dig in and see where thistakes us.
And so six and a half years agoI founded SI Container Builds.
(01:46):
And the SI actually stands forsustainable imprints, so people
don't always know that.
And then over the last threeyears, got into our factory here
outside of the Chicago area sothat we could start being
scalable and doing things thatwere even more sustainable and
eco-friendly inside the factory,and that kind of wound us up
here and working with MBI and inyou guys, and so it's been
(02:09):
really a cool experience, agreat journey.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Well, that's awesome.
I like that story.
I think it takes a little bitof crazy to start a business, so
good for you.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Thank you, I think it's still a little crazy.
There's never a dull moment,that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
So tell me about some of the projects you're working
on now.
You mentioned being aroundChicago.
I know you have a couple oflarger scale container projects
in and around Chicago.
What are the stories behindthose?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, it's really, really cool.
So over the last year thingshave just kind of exploded and
taken off in directions we couldnot have anticipated so
literally, as I speak the secondfloor to the two-floor building
that's going to go down to NavyPier and whoever has been to
Chicago knows Navy Pier, it'sgot the big Ferris wheel right
(02:58):
downtown we are doing the firstever boaters amenity building
that's going to be attached tothe brand new marina down there
that Navy Pier Marina Group isbuilding as the developers.
It's the first transient marinaChicago has ever seen.
So the very first time inhistory, people are going to be
able to enjoy downtown Chicagofor an hour or a day or a week,
(03:20):
where they never were able to dothat by boat before.
And so this building that we'rebuilding out of shipping
containers is just under 3,000square feet.
It's all containers, it's goingto have a ship store, it's
going to have laundry and it'sgoing to have bathrooms and
showers and people lounge spacefor the boaters that are renting
the slips, and so it's justthis wonderful legacy project
(03:42):
for right downtown Chicago.
In the same breath, we arecompletely approved for a permit
in hand, working with HODC andShelter Inc to provide the very
first group home for girlswho've been trafficked in the
suburbs of Chicago.
It's going to be a 6400 squarefoot group home and girls as
(04:04):
young as 12 years old that havenot had a safe home to go to,
that have come off the streets.
They are now going to besupported in this house, and so
we have two very cool, verydifferent type of projects
supporting community here inChicago going on right now.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
What inspired the use of shipping containers for
these projects?
Was it the cost, the speed, theaesthetic or something else?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yeah, I mean you of all people understand modular,
which is really, I mean, noteverybody does so.
From a speed perspective, themodular piece is why we have
decided to utilize containers.
We are brokering thesecontainers from all over the
country.
We are very purpose-driven ofwhat kind of containers we use,
(04:49):
and actually I have a blog thathelps people understand what
they're picking out.
When people say, oh, I can justbuild with a container, any old
container, it's really not true.
Since the early 2000s,containers had to go through a
very rigorous process to even beable to come into this country
and then to be able to repurposelegally has been in the ICC
(05:11):
code since 2018.
And so I fell in love with theship container because I found
out that there are more than 26million of them sitting around
because we do not ship them back, and so this is, in my opinion,
an environmental crisis, and soat that point, I realized well,
other countries have been doingthis for decades.
I do know there are people inthe states that have been
(05:33):
successfully doing this for alittle while, but there's not a
ton of people in the Midwest andcertainly not in Illinois.
Let's repurpose this and dosomething really great, and
architects and engineers thatcome on board with us have truly
been able to create wonderfulspaces, built to code and doing
it all correctly, right here inour factory.
(05:54):
But I just wanted to dosomething and get these out of
the container graveyards thatthey're all sitting in right now
.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
How would you describe the design of these
projects?
How are these containers beingtailored for these two very
distinct uses?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, you know, we are maybe a little bit different
because everybody that workwith us are licensed and
certified, and so that meansfrom our architects to our civil
and structural engineers, allthe people that are around us
are creating a buildingstructure, a building envelope,
just using a steel frame, and sothey look at the containers
(06:35):
themselves as a steel frame,stackable like Legos, modular
piece, and that they can createsomething pretty much anything
you want.
I mean, I've seen architects dojust incredible things all over
the world with these, and whenyou see the Navy Pier building
and the Shelter Inc building,you'll see that they're very,
very different.
One has exposed container steelon the outside.
(06:59):
One is completely cladded sothat they love the structural
integrity of the steel but theywant it to blend into their
community a little bit better,and so there's all kinds of uses
for that.
But ultimately it's donecorrectly so that the architects
and engineers on board arepretty much the starting point
of how we build with our clients.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So walk me through the development process, you
know, from initial concept toconstruction which is going on
now.
You know for one of theseprojects and you can pick what
were the major milestones andwho are the key players at each
stage.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, you know it's a little different, and yet it's
similar to if you're doinganything on site, because we
still have to follow the samekind of process.
The advantage that we have isthat we truly can build a lot
faster.
So in my factory we're buildingall year round.
We don't have to deal with theweather that is outside.
So when a client comes to usand specifically we work with a
(07:56):
B2B environment, we are notworking direct-to-consumer
anymore, we work with a B2Benvironment.
We are not working direct toconsumer anymore.
So we'll work with a developeror a nonprofit or a commercial
entity and they'll come to usand say I need a concession
stand or I need a yoga studio orI need a multifamily unit, and
we'll sit with them and usuallythe developer that we've been
(08:18):
working with has a goodunderstanding of what they're
trying to do and a performa thatis maybe not complete because
they need some numbers, but theyhave a general idea of the
building, what it's going tolook like, and so we'll sit with
them, with our architects andengineers, and then we'll be
able to get the numbers in.
And they're coming to us for acouple of reasons.
One is they love thesustainability factor of the
(08:40):
containers, and that's really agreat cool factor, but also the
fact that we can build so muchfaster than if we build on site
and we are typically savingbetween 8% to 10% on our bills,
just in general, to a developer.
So that's why they're coming tous and it just makes life a lot
less complicated.
So after the design is complete,we go through the same process
(09:02):
as any other new construction.
We are sitting down withmunicipalities so that everybody
on their building teaminspectors to the fire
department they're all on boardto what we're doing, because
most of the time they've neverseen this kind of construction
before.
So there's a lot of questions,a lot of education, and so we
spend a lot of time with themaround that.
And then we go through the samepermitting process that anybody
(09:25):
else would have to go throughand in my opinion I always say
the building part is the easiestpart.
I can do that.
I know exactly how much and howlong that's going to take.
It's the other pieces and partsthat wind up getting in the way
.
That can often take a very longtime.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
How did you first initiate your conversations with
the city of Chicago or thestate of Illinois for these
projects?
Was it a public call?
Was it a pitch directly to you?
How did that start?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, so, especially for Navy Pier, we really had a
very tight timeline and when youwork with any major city,
you're always worried aboutwhat's going to happen and how
many people are going to beneeding to be a part of this
decision-making process, and so,from that standpoint, the
developer was involved.
We had an expediter that wasinvolved because we have such a
(10:14):
tight timeline, but it was mereaching out directly to the
building department and to allof Chicago's credit, and I
really feel this way.
People were responsive, peoplegot on a call with us, people
were excited and engaged, and so, when we were ready for rough
inspection, they actually sentan entire task force of
inspectors up to our factory,which I know that Chicago has
(10:36):
done this in the past, but theydon't typically leave the city
proper, and so this was reallyawesome that they were doing
this for us and people wereexcited and I saw a lot of hope
in that, because I know thatpeople struggle, just in general
, with modular constructionacross the country.
Not every city is that graciousabout it, and so far Chicago
(10:58):
really has been, and I give themthat credit because I believe
that this is going to be thefirst of a long-term
relationship with the city.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Well, that's very encouraging.
That's awesome.
What questions did they comewith, or concerns, or what
information did they need fromyou during that meeting and
along the way to sort of getthem on board with this project?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, I would say that none of the questions that
they had were surprising.
They were all extremely typicalof what I get when I talk to
any municipality, large or small.
People are concerned with thecontainer themselves.
They think of it as a rusty oldbox.
They think of it as havingcould it have had hazardous
materials come over, like whatdo we do about stuff like that?
(11:42):
They also are concerned withthe concept of mold and mildew,
because containers have a badrap with that kind of piece and
what do we do for all of that?
And it's reassuring that the waywe build and how we build and
where we get things and how wesign off on things, and so that
it's a comfort level for them,because things just really have
(12:02):
changed in the last decade andnot everybody realizes that
there's still a lot of oldmantra and a lot of old tape in
people's heads and I understandthat.
And so it's getting themcomfortable that we're not so
weird and it's not so unique.
And I think when the inspectorscame here on the outside they
could see this two-storycontainer building because we
actually built it out in ourfactory, completed, and then
(12:25):
when they were inside they'relike oh, the electric's exactly
the same.
The plumbing's the same, thespray foam's the same, the
drywall's the same.
This is not any different thanany new construction, and so for
them it was just a comfortlevel and it made a lot more
sense.
So I would imagine for nexttime it's not going to be so
weird to say I'm doing acontainer multifamily building
(12:47):
and this is what it's going tobe.
Okay, we get it, you're goingto follow what we need you to
follow and we'll see what weneed to see, and that kind of
communication was awesome.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
You mentioned the city's willingness to sort of
step outside of the city limitsand come give you a visit.
Were there any particularchampions?
You know individuals or groupsor departments within the city
that helped move things forward?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So I would say that there were probably a couple
individuals I don't know if theywould want me to say that we
don't have to name names.
In the building department.
There were a couple of peoplethat I was, you know, really
great grateful for and a coupleof commissioners that were
really a part of the wholeprocess, and I would say,
overall, working with the cityof Chicago was easier than
(13:32):
sometimes a couple of thesmaller municipalities that
we've had to work with inIllinois.
They were a little bit moredifficult and really just had a
mindset that anti-container andChicago is a lot more open.
Maybe the time has come thatthey realize we are not an only
solution, but we are a solutionto do things faster, a little
(13:54):
less expensive and make thingsin the city really pretty, and
so I'm really I was encouragedby that.
You never know and you hear, youknow big, big municipalities.
You get lost in the shuffle,you get sidetracked.
People don't want to listen.
We had such a great experienceso far that I really want to do
(14:15):
kudos to the city of Chicago.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
So, based on these experiences that you've had,
particularly with the city,what's the best starting point
for a municipality interested inlaunching its first modular?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
or container-based project.
How should they start?
Yeah, to me I think, startingwith A a phone conversation and
B.
Come to the factory, come visit.
We're always open to do thatkind of tour.
So we've had a whole group ofpeople in building departments
for a single municipality comein, from a fire chief down to an
inspector, to everyone inbetween, and honestly, that
(14:52):
makes a big difference becauseonce you can feel it and see it
and touch it and they can wraptheir heads around it, it's not
such an unusual concept.
So for me it's aboutcommunication.
It's about working directly,one-on-one.
So if a developer comes to usand says we have an idea but
we're worried about it, myabsolute next first step is
calling the municipalitydirectly and having that initial
(15:15):
conversation with them so thatwe can engage them right away,
so everybody can be a part ofthis team to make sure that you
know people are, the comfortlevel is there.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Now, from the municipality or governments,
local governments point of view,what are the main advantages
that modular and containersoffer to them?
You know, is it financials orlogistical?
Is it social?
Is it all the above or arethere?
Did I miss anything?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Well, I think there's you.
I think there's a few specifics.
One is from a developerstandpoint.
Their ROI is certainly a lotfaster.
Meaning, I'm going to get youhousing, and I don't know a
single area in this country thatis not desperate.
We are in a housing crisis.
Everybody understands that.
I am a solution to the housingcrisis when they can finally
(16:01):
wrap their head around what thisis, not being so unique and
different, but I can do it a lotfaster.
It's a really cool, cool thingfor me to be able to boast about
.
So, ultimately, that issomething that's great Less
expensive, a little bit lessexpensive, and being able to do
it in the factory so people cancome and see as it's being done.
(16:22):
The site work can get done atthe same time as the build
process, and so we don't have towait from one to the other.
I mean, modular has been aroundfor a long time.
I know you know that.
That's why there's the wholeinstitute around that, but at
the end of the day, I feel likethere's just so much need for it
still as a solution base to allkinds of things, housing
(16:45):
included, that I can't talkabout it enough.
I'm sure you can't talk aboutit either.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
What's a flip side of that coin?
What are some of the biggestobstacles and misunderstandings
that public officials have whenit comes to modular and
container construction?
If you had to boil it down toone or two things, I think
there's a fear factor.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I would say the fear of the unknown for people is
what drives people to say noright away instead of digging in
and seeing.
It's not so different.
I have the steel framestructure that I'm using.
So if you really boil it downto the fact that it is just a
core 10 steel frame and I knowexactly what that steel frame is
(17:28):
and it's engineered correctlyand the architect does the plans
correctly, it doesn't matterthat it's a container.
But then there's tax incentivesthat people can use to do
things.
That for the sustainabilitypiece, because I'm recycling
something that otherwise wouldnot be recycling or recycled or
repurposed, and so it's reallyjust managing an old tape, an
(17:50):
old dialogue in people's headsthat it's not a rusty old box,
that this is something that'sbuilt to code, that has been
legally allowed to be repurposedfor decades.
And ultimately you know we are,we're doing things correctly,
and so it's a communication.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Have there been lessons learned from Chicago or
the state of Illinois that couldhelp other cities or states
initiate projects similar tothese?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
I hope so.
I mean stay tuned right, likeonce we get these up and running
and people can do walkthroughsand really appreciate and see
the end result.
I'm really hoping that thecomfort level is shared.
So when I do a presentation, Ioften add in pictures of like
multifamily and other commercialbuilds that people have done
(18:36):
and companies have done in otherparts of the country and I can
say I wish I made this up Likethis is super unique.
However, san Diego, los Angeles, nashville, north Carolina, new
York places have done this andso when they see that and they
can say, oh, you know, that'sreally cool and it's not so
weird and unique.
(18:57):
And maybe Chicago, there's roomfor us here and not just the
city, but you know, allthroughout the Chicago.
There's room for us here andnot just the city, but all
throughout the state.
There's a lot of different waysto be able to repurpose them.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
You alluded to this a little bit before, but how do
you see container constructionfitting into the broader future
of urban development andaffordable and special use
buildings?
What's the future look like forcontainers?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Oh, I hope it keeps growing.
I mean, truly, there are somany containers just sitting
around not being used, and Iknow that there are a few other
companies like mine and a coupleof them I got to meet at world
of modular, which I was reallyexcited because they've been
doing this a little bit longerthan than we have.
You know, a shout out to to mycounterparts and colleagues out
(19:42):
there that have been reallydigging in longer than I have,
because I do believe that thereis a purpose for this long term.
I think that why not usesomething that is truly not
going to be used for anythingelse, since we have the
technology, we have theknowledge to do that?
So I do believe it will justcontinue to grow.
(20:02):
The difficulty is, in my opinion, because you had asked this
before there's a challenge thatI fight all the time, and that's
with the internet.
There's a lot of misinformation, so people think I can just buy
any old container and anythingthat I see and I can just
repurpose it myself.
You have skills because youhave construction skills and you
know what you're buying.
(20:22):
That's fine, but we haveactually had to fix multiple
mistakes when that has happened,because it's still construction
, and when it's done correctly.
It takes a skill set to do it,and so I fight the Internet an
awful lot.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Don't we all?
Last question, I'll let you gowhat advice would you give to
container builders who arelooking to break into the public
sector?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
or civic projects Talk to each other.
I would say the one thing Ireally loved most about World of
Modular for me is the abilityto meet people that are in the
space, and so I do have peoplethat call me from other parts of
the country and ask questions,and I'm super open to that.
I think sometimes people think,well, they're competitors.
(21:09):
You know you really, you'rewhat's your intellectual
property, you're giving thataway, but at the end of the day,
there's so much need out there.
Let's figure out thesechallenges together, and if
something didn't't work, I wantyou to know that we tried this
and this is what didn't work.
Don't make the same mistake Idid, you know.
Try to you know.
Make sure that we have a.
We build this together so webuild it correctly together and
(21:32):
we can get good reputations bydoing that.
So that would be my advice well, thank you, uh.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
So much, rory.
I really appreciate your time.
It was great finally meetingyou at World of Modular last
month.
I can't wait to see theseprojects conclude and your next
projects after that.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Thanks so much, john, appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
My name is John McMullen and this has been
another episode of InsideModular, the podcast of
commercial modular construction.
Until next time.
Hello and welcome to Inside Modular, the podcast of
commercial modular constructionbrought to you by the Modular
Building Institute.
Welcome everyone.
My name is John McMullen.
I'm the marketing director hereat MBI.
Today I'm joined by Rory Rubin,founder and CEO at SI Container
Builds.
Rory is here to talk about hercompany's latest container-based
(00:21):
projects and how states, citiesand municipalities can get
started with their owncontainer-based projects.
Roy, welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hi John.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Thanks for having me.
It's my pleasure.
It's my pleasure.
Tell me about yourself, roy,what's your background and
what's the story behind SIContainer Builds.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Well, my background and the story are very mutually
exclusive.
They're very different.
I started off as a clinicalsocial worker.
I did work within Alzheimer'sdisease research and in clinical
practice, and so people arelike, well, that's very weird,
like how could you ever do whatyou're doing now, which is run a
modular factory?
And I said it's actually notthat different because
(01:01):
ultimately I'm working withpeople.
So working with people kind oftransfers from social work right
to this business model.
I started SI Container Buildsabout six and a half years ago
because I really wanted to dosomething a little different in
my career.
I came from a family ofarchitects and construction
people and I always thought thatwas fabulous and cool and I
(01:24):
wanted to live more sustainably.
And ultimately I fell in lovewith the shipping container and
I turned to my husband one dayand I said you know what?
Been a management consultantfor a long time, I really want
to start a business.
And he thought it was a littlecrazy and he said, okay, let's
just dig in and see where thistakes us.
And so six and a half years agoI founded SI Container Builds.
(01:46):
And the SI actually stands forsustainable imprints, so people
don't always know that.
And then over the last threeyears, got into our factory here
outside of the Chicago area sothat we could start being
scalable and doing things thatwere even more sustainable and
eco-friendly inside the factory,and that kind of wound us up
here and working with MBI and inyou guys, and so it's been
(02:09):
really a cool experience, agreat journey.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Well, that's awesome.
I like that story.
I think it takes a little bitof crazy to start a business, so
good for you.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Thank you, I think it's still a little crazy.
There's never a dull moment,that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
So tell me about some of the projects you're working
on now.
You mentioned being aroundChicago.
I know you have a couple oflarger scale container projects
in and around Chicago.
What are the stories behindthose?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, it's really, really cool.
So over the last year thingshave just kind of exploded and
taken off in directions we couldnot have anticipated so
literally, as I speak the secondfloor to the two-floor building
that's going to go down to NavyPier and whoever has been to
Chicago knows Navy Pier, it'sgot the big Ferris wheel right
(02:58):
downtown we are doing the firstever boaters amenity building
that's going to be attached tothe brand new marina down there
that Navy Pier Marina Group isbuilding as the developers.
It's the first transient marinaChicago has ever seen.
So the very first time inhistory, people are going to be
able to enjoy downtown Chicagofor an hour or a day or a week,
(03:20):
where they never were able to dothat by boat before.
And so this building that we'rebuilding out of shipping
containers is just under 3,000square feet.
It's all containers, it's goingto have a ship store, it's
going to have laundry and it'sgoing to have bathrooms and
showers and people lounge spacefor the boaters that are renting
the slips, and so it's justthis wonderful legacy project
(03:42):
for right downtown Chicago.
In the same breath, we arecompletely approved for a permit
in hand, working with HODC andShelter Inc to provide the very
first group home for girlswho've been trafficked in the
suburbs of Chicago.
It's going to be a 6400 squarefoot group home and girls as
(04:04):
young as 12 years old that havenot had a safe home to go to,
that have come off the streets.
They are now going to besupported in this house, and so
we have two very cool, verydifferent type of projects
supporting community here inChicago going on right now.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
What inspired the use of shipping containers for
these projects?
Was it the cost, the speed, theaesthetic or something else?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yeah, I mean you of all people understand modular,
which is really, I mean, noteverybody does so.
From a speed perspective, themodular piece is why we have
decided to utilize containers.
We are brokering thesecontainers from all over the
country.
We are very purpose-driven ofwhat kind of containers we use,
(04:49):
and actually I have a blog thathelps people understand what
they're picking out.
When people say, oh, I can justbuild with a container, any old
container, it's really not true.
Since the early 2000s,containers had to go through a
very rigorous process to even beable to come into this country
and then to be able to repurposelegally has been in the ICC
(05:11):
code since 2018.
And so I fell in love with theship container because I found
out that there are more than 26million of them sitting around
because we do not ship them back, and so this is, in my opinion,
an environmental crisis, and soat that point, I realized well,
other countries have been doingthis for decades.
I do know there are people inthe states that have been
(05:33):
successfully doing this for alittle while, but there's not a
ton of people in the Midwest andcertainly not in Illinois.
Let's repurpose this and dosomething really great, and
architects and engineers thatcome on board with us have truly
been able to create wonderfulspaces, built to code and doing
it all correctly, right here inour factory.
(05:54):
But I just wanted to dosomething and get these out of
the container graveyards thatthey're all sitting in right now
.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
How would you describe the design of these
projects?
How are these containers beingtailored for these two very
distinct uses?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, you know, we are maybe a little bit different
because everybody that workwith us are licensed and
certified, and so that meansfrom our architects to our civil
and structural engineers, allthe people that are around us
are creating a buildingstructure, a building envelope,
just using a steel frame, and sothey look at the containers
(06:35):
themselves as a steel frame,stackable like Legos, modular
piece, and that they can createsomething pretty much anything
you want.
I mean, I've seen architects dojust incredible things all over
the world with these, and whenyou see the Navy Pier building
and the Shelter Inc building,you'll see that they're very,
very different.
One has exposed container steelon the outside.
(06:59):
One is completely cladded sothat they love the structural
integrity of the steel but theywant it to blend into their
community a little bit better,and so there's all kinds of uses
for that.
But ultimately it's donecorrectly so that the architects
and engineers on board arepretty much the starting point
of how we build with our clients.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So walk me through the development process, you
know, from initial concept toconstruction which is going on
now.
You know for one of theseprojects and you can pick what
were the major milestones andwho are the key players at each
stage.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, you know it's a little different, and yet it's
similar to if you're doinganything on site, because we
still have to follow the samekind of process.
The advantage that we have isthat we truly can build a lot
faster.
So in my factory we're buildingall year round.
We don't have to deal with theweather that is outside.
So when a client comes to usand specifically we work with a
(07:56):
B2B environment, we are notworking direct-to-consumer
anymore, we work with a B2Benvironment.
We are not working direct toconsumer anymore.
So we'll work with a developeror a nonprofit or a commercial
entity and they'll come to usand say I need a concession
stand or I need a yoga studio orI need a multifamily unit, and
we'll sit with them and usuallythe developer that we've been
(08:18):
working with has a goodunderstanding of what they're
trying to do and a performa thatis maybe not complete because
they need some numbers, but theyhave a general idea of the
building, what it's going tolook like, and so we'll sit with
them, with our architects andengineers, and then we'll be
able to get the numbers in.
And they're coming to us for acouple of reasons.
One is they love thesustainability factor of the
(08:40):
containers, and that's really agreat cool factor, but also the
fact that we can build so muchfaster than if we build on site
and we are typically savingbetween 8% to 10% on our bills,
just in general, to a developer.
So that's why they're coming tous and it just makes life a lot
less complicated.
So after the design is complete,we go through the same process
(09:02):
as any other new construction.
We are sitting down withmunicipalities so that everybody
on their building teaminspectors to the fire
department they're all on boardto what we're doing, because
most of the time they've neverseen this kind of construction
before.
So there's a lot of questions,a lot of education, and so we
spend a lot of time with themaround that.
And then we go through the samepermitting process that anybody
(09:25):
else would have to go throughand in my opinion I always say
the building part is the easiestpart.
I can do that.
I know exactly how much and howlong that's going to take.
It's the other pieces and partsthat wind up getting in the way
.
That can often take a very longtime.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
How did you first initiate your conversations with
the city of Chicago or thestate of Illinois for these
projects?
Was it a public call?
Was it a pitch directly to you?
How did that start?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, so, especially for Navy Pier, we really had a
very tight timeline and when youwork with any major city,
you're always worried aboutwhat's going to happen and how
many people are going to beneeding to be a part of this
decision-making process, and so,from that standpoint, the
developer was involved.
We had an expediter that wasinvolved because we have such a
(10:14):
tight timeline, but it was mereaching out directly to the
building department and to allof Chicago's credit, and I
really feel this way.
People were responsive, peoplegot on a call with us, people
were excited and engaged, and so, when we were ready for rough
inspection, they actually sentan entire task force of
inspectors up to our factory,which I know that Chicago has
(10:36):
done this in the past, but theydon't typically leave the city
proper, and so this was reallyawesome that they were doing
this for us and people wereexcited and I saw a lot of hope
in that, because I know thatpeople struggle, just in general
, with modular constructionacross the country.
Not every city is that graciousabout it, and so far Chicago
(10:58):
really has been, and I give themthat credit because I believe
that this is going to be thefirst of a long-term
relationship with the city.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Well, that's very encouraging.
That's awesome.
What questions did they comewith, or concerns, or what
information did they need fromyou during that meeting and
along the way to sort of getthem on board with this project?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, I would say that none of the questions that
they had were surprising.
They were all extremely typicalof what I get when I talk to
any municipality, large or small.
People are concerned with thecontainer themselves.
They think of it as a rusty oldbox.
They think of it as havingcould it have had hazardous
materials come over, like whatdo we do about stuff like that?
(11:42):
They also are concerned withthe concept of mold and mildew,
because containers have a badrap with that kind of piece and
what do we do for all of that?
And it's reassuring that the waywe build and how we build and
where we get things and how wesign off on things, and so that
it's a comfort level for them,because things just really have
(12:02):
changed in the last decade andnot everybody realizes that
there's still a lot of oldmantra and a lot of old tape in
people's heads and I understandthat.
And so it's getting themcomfortable that we're not so
weird and it's not so unique.
And I think when the inspectorscame here on the outside they
could see this two-storycontainer building because we
actually built it out in ourfactory, completed, and then
(12:25):
when they were inside they'relike oh, the electric's exactly
the same.
The plumbing's the same, thespray foam's the same, the
drywall's the same.
This is not any different thanany new construction, and so for
them it was just a comfortlevel and it made a lot more
sense.
So I would imagine for nexttime it's not going to be so
weird to say I'm doing acontainer multifamily building
(12:47):
and this is what it's going tobe.
Okay, we get it, you're goingto follow what we need you to
follow and we'll see what weneed to see, and that kind of
communication was awesome.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
You mentioned the city's willingness to sort of
step outside of the city limitsand come give you a visit.
Were there any particularchampions?
You know individuals or groupsor departments within the city
that helped move things forward?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So I would say that there were probably a couple
individuals I don't know if theywould want me to say that we
don't have to name names.
In the building department.
There were a couple of peoplethat I was, you know, really
great grateful for and a coupleof commissioners that were
really a part of the wholeprocess, and I would say,
overall, working with the cityof Chicago was easier than
(13:32):
sometimes a couple of thesmaller municipalities that
we've had to work with inIllinois.
They were a little bit moredifficult and really just had a
mindset that anti-container andChicago is a lot more open.
Maybe the time has come thatthey realize we are not an only
solution, but we are a solutionto do things faster, a little
(13:54):
less expensive and make thingsin the city really pretty, and
so I'm really I was encouragedby that.
You never know and you hear, youknow big, big municipalities.
You get lost in the shuffle,you get sidetracked.
People don't want to listen.
We had such a great experienceso far that I really want to do
(14:15):
kudos to the city of Chicago.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
So, based on these experiences that you've had,
particularly with the city,what's the best starting point
for a municipality interested inlaunching its first modular?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
or container-based project.
How should they start?
Yeah, to me I think, startingwith A a phone conversation and
B.
Come to the factory, come visit.
We're always open to do thatkind of tour.
So we've had a whole group ofpeople in building departments
for a single municipality comein, from a fire chief down to an
inspector, to everyone inbetween, and honestly, that
(14:52):
makes a big difference becauseonce you can feel it and see it
and touch it and they can wraptheir heads around it, it's not
such an unusual concept.
So for me it's aboutcommunication.
It's about working directly,one-on-one.
So if a developer comes to usand says we have an idea but
we're worried about it, myabsolute next first step is
calling the municipalitydirectly and having that initial
(15:15):
conversation with them so thatwe can engage them right away,
so everybody can be a part ofthis team to make sure that you
know people are, the comfortlevel is there.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Now, from the municipality or governments,
local governments point of view,what are the main advantages
that modular and containersoffer to them?
You know, is it financials orlogistical?
Is it social?
Is it all the above or arethere?
Did I miss anything?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Well, I think there's you.
I think there's a few specifics.
One is from a developerstandpoint.
Their ROI is certainly a lotfaster.
Meaning, I'm going to get youhousing, and I don't know a
single area in this country thatis not desperate.
We are in a housing crisis.
Everybody understands that.
I am a solution to the housingcrisis when they can finally
(16:01):
wrap their head around what thisis, not being so unique and
different, but I can do it a lotfaster.
It's a really cool, cool thingfor me to be able to boast about
.
So, ultimately, that issomething that's great Less
expensive, a little bit lessexpensive, and being able to do
it in the factory so people cancome and see as it's being done.
(16:22):
The site work can get done atthe same time as the build
process, and so we don't have towait from one to the other.
I mean, modular has been aroundfor a long time.
I know you know that.
That's why there's the wholeinstitute around that, but at
the end of the day, I feel likethere's just so much need for it
still as a solution base to allkinds of things, housing
(16:45):
included, that I can't talkabout it enough.
I'm sure you can't talk aboutit either.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
What's a flip side of that coin?
What are some of the biggestobstacles and misunderstandings
that public officials have whenit comes to modular and
container construction?
If you had to boil it down toone or two things, I think
there's a fear factor.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I would say the fear of the unknown for people is
what drives people to say noright away instead of digging in
and seeing.
It's not so different.
I have the steel framestructure that I'm using.
So if you really boil it downto the fact that it is just a
core 10 steel frame and I knowexactly what that steel frame is
(17:28):
and it's engineered correctlyand the architect does the plans
correctly, it doesn't matterthat it's a container.
But then there's tax incentivesthat people can use to do
things.
That for the sustainabilitypiece, because I'm recycling
something that otherwise wouldnot be recycling or recycled or
repurposed, and so it's reallyjust managing an old tape, an
(17:50):
old dialogue in people's headsthat it's not a rusty old box,
that this is something that'sbuilt to code, that has been
legally allowed to be repurposedfor decades.
And ultimately you know we are,we're doing things correctly,
and so it's a communication.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Have there been lessons learned from Chicago or
the state of Illinois that couldhelp other cities or states
initiate projects similar tothese?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
I hope so.
I mean stay tuned right, likeonce we get these up and running
and people can do walkthroughsand really appreciate and see
the end result.
I'm really hoping that thecomfort level is shared.
So when I do a presentation, Ioften add in pictures of like
multifamily and other commercialbuilds that people have done
(18:36):
and companies have done in otherparts of the country and I can
say I wish I made this up Likethis is super unique.
However, san Diego, los Angeles, nashville, north Carolina, new
York places have done this andso when they see that and they
can say, oh, you know, that'sreally cool and it's not so
weird and unique.
(18:57):
And maybe Chicago, there's roomfor us here and not just the
city, but you know, allthroughout the Chicago.
There's room for us here andnot just the city, but all
throughout the state.
There's a lot of different waysto be able to repurpose them.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
You alluded to this a little bit before, but how do
you see container constructionfitting into the broader future
of urban development andaffordable and special use
buildings?
What's the future look like forcontainers?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Oh, I hope it keeps growing.
I mean, truly, there are somany containers just sitting
around not being used, and Iknow that there are a few other
companies like mine and a coupleof them I got to meet at world
of modular, which I was reallyexcited because they've been
doing this a little bit longerthan than we have.
You know, a shout out to to mycounterparts and colleagues out
(19:42):
there that have been reallydigging in longer than I have,
because I do believe that thereis a purpose for this long term.
I think that why not usesomething that is truly not
going to be used for anythingelse, since we have the
technology, we have theknowledge to do that?
So I do believe it will justcontinue to grow.
(20:02):
The difficulty is, in my opinion, because you had asked this
before there's a challenge thatI fight all the time, and that's
with the internet.
There's a lot of misinformation, so people think I can just buy
any old container and anythingthat I see and I can just
repurpose it myself.
You have skills because youhave construction skills and you
know what you're buying.
(20:22):
That's fine, but we haveactually had to fix multiple
mistakes when that has happened,because it's still construction
, and when it's done correctly.
It takes a skill set to do it,and so I fight the Internet an
awful lot.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Don't we all?
Last question, I'll let you gowhat advice would you give to
container builders who arelooking to break into the public
sector?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
or civic projects Talk to each other.
I would say the one thing Ireally loved most about World of
Modular for me is the abilityto meet people that are in the
space, and so I do have peoplethat call me from other parts of
the country and ask questions,and I'm super open to that.
I think sometimes people think,well, they're competitors.
(21:09):
You know you really, you'rewhat's your intellectual
property, you're giving thataway, but at the end of the day,
there's so much need out there.
Let's figure out thesechallenges together, and if
something didn't't work, I wantyou to know that we tried this
and this is what didn't work.
Don't make the same mistake Idid, you know.
Try to you know.
Make sure that we have a.
We build this together so webuild it correctly together and
(21:32):
we can get good reputations bydoing that.
So that would be my advice well, thank you, uh.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
So much, rory.
I really appreciate your time.
It was great finally meetingyou at World of Modular last
month.
I can't wait to see theseprojects conclude and your next
projects after that.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Thanks so much, john, appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
My name is John McMullen and this has been
another episode of InsideModular, the podcast of
commercial modular construction.
Until next time.
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