Aviation Culture with Cate Bichara

In this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast we talk to Cate Bichara, co-author of a recent culture paper about the aviation industry.

Key topics covered include:

• Is there a balance between psychological and physical safety?
• Why do you believe that the aviation industry has been slow to recognise the importance of culture?
• Are there more Boeing case studies out there?

Connect with Cate:

Cate Bichara

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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.

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Episode Transcript

Colin (00:02):
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.

Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.

Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.

Cath (00:33):
Welcome to another episode of the Inside Out Culture
podcast, and it's another of ourguest episodes, and so I'm
going to hand straight over toColin to introduce our guest
today.

Colin (00:44):
Thank you, Cath.
Yes, I'm delighted to be joinedtoday by Kate Bashar.
Now, kate has been working inthe aviation industry for over
20 years.
She's a holder, amongst otherthings, of a Master in Social
and Educational Sciences, hasbeen involved in many aspects of
training, particularly in thefield of air traffic control.
She's also a speaker, anindependent consultant, and she

(01:07):
co-authored a fascinating paperon changing the culture within
the aviation industry, whichwe'll be talking to her about
today.
Hello, kate, thanks for joiningus.

Cate (01:16):
Good afternoon to both of you.
Thank you very much forinviting me.

Colin (01:19):
So let's start with the paper, because that's how I came
across your work, as someonewho is kind of constantly
looking at Cath, always talkingabout the work that we do to dig
into what's happening into theworld, around the world of
culture, and I came across yourpaper, which is called, which
you co-authored, called positiveorganizational culture in

(01:39):
aviation, and we'll put a linkto the the paper into this, the
action sheet.
One of the the the of thestatements that immediately
grabbed my attention was theaviation industry faces
challenges stemming from a lackof attention to organization
culture beyond safety culture.
So maybe you can just give us alittle bit of a genesis of

(02:00):
where did your thinking comefrom, where did the paper come
from?
You know kind of what has beenthe response to it.

Cate (02:06):
Thanks, colin.
Yes, so we have an aviation whatis known as Just Culture, which
is embedded, amongst otherplaces, in the European
regulation, which actuallymandates front end operators
pilots, air traffic controllers,maintenance staff to report
incidents, so that we can createa learning culture within the

(02:26):
aviation industry that willactually help us avoid accidents
and not just learn fromaccidents that have passed.
And my thinking here was infact, it was for another
master's that I did morerecently.
I wrote a paper on this, tryingto move it into the office
environment, with the hypothesisthat office people have just as

(02:50):
much impact on safety as thefront end operator does.
It just is maybe not less, it'smaybe a little less visible, a
little less immediate, andindeed so then we went on with
my two co-authors to co-author apaper that's on LinkedIn, and
then this positiveorganizational culture, which we
are trying to promote at leastacross Europe, believing that a

(03:13):
positive organizational cultureand a high reliability industry,
a safety critical industry, isfundamental to ensuring safety
for everybody.
It's not just the people thatyou see at the front end.

Cath (03:26):
So one of the things that I've kind of associate with the
aviation industry is this yeah,the beginnings of the just
culture where we think ofactually aviation being really
ahead of the curve.
And you know, pilots flaggingnear misses, the black box
giving us that tool of learning.
Pilots are flagging near misses, the black box giving us that

(03:47):
tool of learning.
And Matthew Syed's written abook, black Box Thinking, which
I think lots of us have kind ofread and thought about how
there's a big contrast betweenaviation approach to safety and
healthcare, where the front endperhaps don't well, don't record
near misses and haven't got thesame record over the last
century of improving outcomesfor people involved.
What you're saying is behindthe pilots, behind the cockpit.

(04:09):
Not nearly enough has been doneto make sure that the same
principles apply.

Cate (04:14):
So I wouldn't be able to really speak about the
healthcare industry other than Imean, I've got no statistics to
hand.
Obviously, it's lesscatastrophic when something goes
wrong in the healthcareindustry.
If an aircraft crashes, it hitsthe headlines, everybody knows
about it.
It's a lot of people involved.
The healthcare industry tendsto be one person at a time, so

(04:34):
it's a little bit more sort ofscope creep, I would say.
Having said that, and to comeback to your question, is yes,
there's a lot that happens inthe aviation industry.
Behind the people that we see,the people that we as flying
public see, are the pilots we atleast know about them because
they're up front the cabin crew,who also have a big safety role

(04:58):
to play, and that is sometimesoverlooked.
We tend to see them as someglorified waiters, but they're
not.
They're definitely first andforemost, they're for the safety
of the passenger.
But then there are the otherpeople that we don't see.
There are the aircraftmechanics, there are the people
who refuel, there are thebaggage handlers, the air

(05:19):
traffic controllers.
We sometimes think about them,and that is still just the tip
of the iceberg, because behindthat we've got all the people
who are creating the procedures,who are looking at the
documents, who are applying theregulations, who are working
within the realms of safety toensure that everything that goes

(05:40):
out there and actually makesthe aircraft fly is safe and as
safe as possible.
And here may be another point tobring.
That is important is and tocome back to my first point on
this question is that aviationhas become safe because if
anything goes wrong, it is veryvisible and therefore there are

(06:02):
very few things that we canlearn about that have actually
happened in the past.
We really need to look at whatis going to happen in the future
.
And how do we look at what ishappening in the future?
What will happen in the futureis to take the weak signals, to
take the things that could havegone wrong and look at those so
that we can better the safetybefore something happens.

(06:25):
So it's not quite a crystalball, but we're working on it.

Cath (06:30):
Is there a kind of snobbery that you know we care
about the frontline people.
They've got to get it right butwe're ignoring these.
How have we got to a positionwhere these other really
important people working in theindustry, their culture, has
been neglected?
People working in the industryhave their cultures been
neglected.

Cate (06:46):
So I think there is a public perception that the
really important person is,first and foremost, the pilot,
and they are.
They're definitely very, veryimportant.
We like having them there andthe air traffic controller,
because they keep the aircraftapart.
When we dig down again, we'rethinking of the maintenance
people.
We like them because they keepthe aircraft safe to fly and

(07:08):
bits of it aren't going to falloff.
People who do the baggagehandling, who load the plane,
who put the fuel on board.
As we start thinking more andmore about these people, we
start realizing how importantthey are.
The fuel needs to be the rightamount, otherwise the aircraft
could crash, either because itdoesn't have enough fuel for the
flight or because it's got toomuch and can't take off.

(07:29):
That's not good.
The luggage has to be put inthe aircraft according to its
weight so that the aircraftbalances out, because an
aircraft is a balancing act inthe air.
So all of these people are veryimportant.
They need to know what they'redoing.
They need to follow process andprocedure.
So all of these people are veryimportant.
They need to know what they'redoing.
They need to follow process andprocedure.

(07:50):
The perception, the publicperception, is that possibly the
person doing something obscurein an office like writing out a
procedure.
We don't necessarily understandthe impact that that could have
.
The image that I take from thefirst paper that we wrote is of
a hospital, and here I'm goingback to the healthcare hospital
in the UK that was built.
When they put out the call fortender, they made a mistake in a

(08:13):
copy-paste in an Excelspreadsheet and one of the
companies who put in a tenderidentified this error, said we
will be more expensive becausewe've corrected the error.
For whatever reasons and I'veonly got the BBC article on this
so I cannot delve into moredetail it was decided to go with

(08:35):
another company into moredetail.
It was decided to go withanother company.
They booked the hospital to thespecifications on the Excel
spreadsheet and then the errorwas noticed, luckily before the
patients arrived, so there wereno issues or deaths due to that.
However, it cost the hospitalan awful lot of money to correct
it.
Now, this is not somebody whowas a front-end operator, it's

(08:58):
not a doctor, it's not a nurse,it's not even the cleaning staff
.
It's somebody who is sitting inan office and copy-pasting
something from somewhere intosomething else.
The difference here between thefront-end operator and the
office staff or the back-endoperator, I would say is the
time lapse.
When a pilot does somethingwrong or an air traffic

(09:20):
controller does something wrong,we usually see it very fast and
so it can be corrected veryfast.
It has to be seen and thencorrected when it's in the
office.
It could take six months, itcould take a year, it could take
two years to come to thesurface, and then are we able to
even trace it back to what wentwrong?
I'm not saying the person,because this is not about

(09:41):
blaming.
This is about finding out whatwent wrong so that we can learn
from it.
But can we even trace it backto what went wrong, or is it
lost in the mists of time, andthis makes it a little more
difficult as well.

Colin (09:55):
Yeah, one of the things that because back in episode
eight of Inside Out CulturePodcast, we, Cath and I, talked
about Boeing and the challengesthat it was facing at the time
and this is a perfect example ofeverything that you talked
about in the paper as well is,you know, boeing got to the
state that they were in.
Obviously, they had the issuesover the 737 MAX plane, the

(10:15):
delays, the cut in the corners,but it all comes back to
everything that you're talkingabout, Kate, in terms of the
different people in thedifferent roles and really the
management focus on buildingsomething that people feel a
sense of connection to, people,feel a sense of ownership to
people feel in a sense of prideabout.
There was an Emirates pilotlast year in the media,

(10:36):
basically, basically, who saidthat the aviation culture almost
is like a race to the bottom.
And so how do you feel, or whatdo you think in terms of how we
got to this point where wehaven't paid attention to the
back office as much as the frontoffice had, and by front office
, obviously, I mean pilots.

Cate (10:57):
Yeah, pilots, air traffic controllers, maintenance who
we're referring to here, atleast according to the European
regulation.
I won't go into too much detailabout that.
So I think that first of all,there is safety.
Creating safety is creating alack of something, and it's very
difficult to measure yourreturn on investment.
So you're investing insomething that you want to not

(11:21):
happen, which means that sellingthat to people who do not have
a safety mindset and here I'mthinking of investors,
shareholders, boards ofdirectors we can always hope
that senior management willunderstand safety in a safety
critical environment, but thereare other people, particularly

(11:42):
in cost benefit drivenenvironments, where the
shareholders aren't necessarilygoing to understand why a
company will be spending moneyon something that is actually a
non-existence.
So already selling this is verydifficult.
So what happens is then youwrite regulation, regulatory

(12:02):
requirements, standards, bestpractices all of these exist and
you go for, I would say, theminimum viable product, because
that's what's going to cost theleast with the best return on
investment, and this is theeasiest thing to sell to these
people who do not have theabsolute safety mindset.
And then to push that further,we would need more regulation or

(12:30):
more standards or other driversthat create the necessity.
Businesses don't do thingsbecause it's a nice to have.
They do things because there'sa return on investment I'm
talking about for-profitbusinesses, of course.
So they need to see a reason togo and spend money, and I
understand that, because they'vegot a responsibility towards

(12:51):
their owners, towards theirshareholders and towards people
who have invested in them.
What people don't see is howmuch it costs to actually have
an incident or an accident.
And here, learning from theweak signals, learning from the
things that will indicate thatif anything goes wrong again, or
too many times that way, orgets a bit worse or drifts

(13:13):
slightly from where it is, isgoing to create that
catastrophic event, is verydifficult to say.
Well, what's the risk?
We'll manage a risk.
Probability is so much, andbusinesses work like this.
They say what's our risk?
We're insured against the risk.
How much is it going to cost us?
What is it reputationally?
We do have now, certainly inEurope, the CSR, esg regulations

(13:38):
that are supportive of this,but they're across all the
industries corporate socialresponsibility, which drives a
certain amount of, I would say,positive organizational culture.
Is it enough?
Personally, I don't think so.
I think that there's a lot morethat can be done.
I think that there is also alack of understanding of what

(14:01):
really can be done in anorganization.
And again, very often topmanagement will, when they see
the importance and understandthe importance of a positive
organizational culture, or whatwe can also call psychological
safety in the organization.
And here it's not a unicorn,it's not something fluffy, this

(14:22):
is something that has beenstudied for many years, came out
in the 1990s Amy Edmondson,timothy Clark, et cetera.
So when top managementunderstands the need for safety,
they possibly understand theneed for positive organizational
culture or psychological safety, they understand the need for

(14:44):
their assayed inclusion anddiversity, and then they go and
tell their reports, go, do, makeit happen.
The big thing that I'veidentified here is that we're
completely missing the pointhere because they're also
telling those direct reportsthat middle management and the
lower echelons to also meettheir KPIs, to also save money,

(15:06):
et cetera, et cetera.
So where do I put the focus?
As a middle manager, I will putmy focus on what I know how to
do, which is meeting my KPIs,which is doing my day job, and
there's other fluffy stuff thatI don't know how to do because
nobody's taught me.
I then put to the side and I'lldo it one day when I've got a
bit of time, because it'sactually not something that I

(15:27):
feel very comfortable with and Idon't really understand it.
And here there is a bigeducational piece that a lot of
companies not only in aviationpiece that a lot of companies
not only in aviation but acrossthe board, could really benefit
from by supporting and helpingtheir middle management,
actually number one understandwhat it is that we're looking
for, but also how to achieve it.

(15:49):
And another thing that we seeis that the issues and the
topics are very, very similaracross all industries.
Once we've moved away from thesafety criticality, in other
words, the immediate response tosafety, we find ourselves in
industries and I'm thinkingcompanies that build or install

(16:11):
lifts, you know, the automotiveindustry, the food and beverage
industry.
They all actually have safetycomponents to them and they all
actually could benefit very muchor do benefit from a positive
organisational culture.

Cath (16:26):
I mean there's also a cost of having disengaged staff,
having a high turnover, having asense that you don't belong to
an organisation, which is allpart of what then pulls at the
quality of safety that you'reable belong to an organization,
which is all part of what thenpulls at the quality of safety
that you're able to contributeto in your role.
And this is one of the thingsthat I think you start to really
look at the paper.

(16:46):
What do people need in order tothrive and deliver safety, but
in a sustainable way?
And I mean what's comingthrough loud and clear to me is
a lack of leadership.
Leadership at the top, actually, not you know, but just
chucking down all KPIs andpositive culture.
Of course that's not enough.
Lack of learning and developmentActually, we need leadership in
the middle management layer aswell.

(17:08):
But perhaps you could dive intoa little bit.
I love we both loved how yousort of brought out these
aspects of you know ourfundamental human sort of
brought out these aspects of youknow our fundamental human
needs, the importance of values.
Yeah, give us a sense of whatyour paper sort of really dives
into that is needed, you know,throughout organisations, at all
levels.

Cate (17:27):
Yeah, absolutely, and so I've been talking a lot about
the safety impact of a positiveorganisational culture.
What we need to look at is theindividual feeling comfortable,
feeling that they belong to theorganization, that they can
thrive, they can develop andthey can give the best of
themselves.
Without that, people will behiding things, they'll be hiding

(17:48):
things about themselves,they'll be hiding things about
the work they've done, themistakes they've made, what
they're actually doing at work,and then we get this
disengagement and a risk ofsafety.
So the link is there.
I think that what's important.
One can take Maslow's hierarchyof needs and we go to work

(18:11):
because we've got to pay thebills, I've got to put food on
the table, pay my mortgage,likewise, I think, most of the
world, and so that's really thebottom.
But how are we going toactually create this environment
within which we're working in ahigh-technology,
high-reliability organisation?
We can't remain just at thebottom.

(18:32):
We're not with all due respectto people who do it, but we're
not just digging holes or doingsomething that has no further
impact.
We are thinkers, we are peoplewho need to move with the times,
work with the technology, workwith the technology, work with
the new cultures, work withwhatever's happening in the

(18:54):
world at the moment AI drones,whatever we want to look at, and
so we can't just stay right atthe bottom of Maslow's hierarchy
.
We really need to move uptowards the top and we need
people to feel engaged, feelthat they can come and bring
their whole self to work.
That's one side of it.
The other side of it is theOECD is predicting that there

(19:17):
will be, if I'm not mistaken,something like 38 million people
missing from the workforce by2050.
By 2050.
This is not just from aviation,it's across the board, and
possibly my number is wrong, butit's an enormous amount of
people, simply because there isno demographic.
Well, there is demographicgrowth rate, but people are

(19:38):
getting older and the workingage population from 15 to 64 is
decreasing, and this is going tocreate another problem.
Industries are going to becompeting with each other to
actually get talent and retaintalent.
With the digitalization of theworkplace, people have more
transferable skills.

(19:59):
A data analyst can go and workfor a Formula One team, for an
aviation company, for a bankjust as easily, or for an
insurance, for a bank just aseasily, or for an insurance, and
they're going to be looking atwhere they feel most comfortable
.
Just throwing more money atthem may not actually do it in
the end.
So how do we not only attractbut also retain our talent, and

(20:25):
how do we make sure that thattalent can then provide the best
of themselves in the workplace,so that we don't need two
people doing the job of one?
And there again, if we've gotless people, we're going to have
to maximize people, butmaximizing what people can do is
not about making them worklonger hours.
It's not about making them domore.
It's about creating theenvironment within which they

(20:46):
can actually thrive and be moreperformant themselves, and so it
is beneficial to the company, Iwould say, in the short to
medium term, to actually createthis environment, although it's
not again.
It's just like safety,inclusion and diversity.
Positive organizational cultureis something that you don't see

(21:09):
tangibly.
You're not creating littleboxes or nails or a number of
spanners or screwdrivers.

Colin (21:18):
I think often, kate, one of the things that certainly we
see in the corporate world isthat if there's a crisis within
an organization, often theanswer is more process, it's
more regulation, it's moreregulation, it's more rules,
which actually makes thingsworse, definitely in the short
term, and my sense, especiallywith the aviation industry, is

(21:40):
because everything is regulatedso highly, we may think that's
the answer.
I mean, what the paper lays outreally really clearly, which is
something Cath and I always talkabout, is the fact that if you
put time, thought, effort, moneyinto making sure people have
got the skills to build greatculture, then what you get
behind the scenes is this realsense of pride, this willingness
to do well, this willingness towork hard such that it

(22:01):
contributes to the bottom line,which is something that the
paper makes really, really clear.
Is that, actually, if we do allof this stuff really really
well, you know the output is, orthe outcome is, business
success.
And the other thing I wanted totalk about there is it's not
just you on your own, you're nowpart of a working group I think
is it European working group toreally look at how you educate

(22:24):
and raise the importance of thisat a more, I guess, regional
level.

Cate (22:29):
Yes, so it is a global working group, a global task
force, the Global Aviation andAerospace Skills Task Force that
is represented by, with all thecontinents on it.
The GAST, as it's known,familiarly, is divided into five
work streams.
I'm co-leading, uh, one of thework streams, the work stream on

(22:53):
workplace culture, because I dobelieve that it is so important
.
So there's something around.
One of the work streams isaround, uh, the added value of
the value chain, or the addedvalue of aviation.
One is is on attraction how dowe attract talent.
Another one is on retention howdo we retain talent.
And the fifth one is on skills.

(23:14):
And we're number four on theworkplace culture, which kind of
underpins all the others,because without the workplace
culture in all of those workstreams, the aviation industry
is not going to be able to havethis value attract, retain and
develop their workforce.

Cath (23:34):
Yeah, it's the foundation, not the nice to have, isn't it?
So there's some really clearthemes coming out that we sort
of talk about and use in ourwork around.
Quality matters rather thanquantity of work, need to think,
and I think that's reallyincreasingly critical in a world
of AI.
It's how can we best use that?

(23:56):
Yeah, there's no answer, sowe've got to create ever better
answers.
That needs us to think forourselves and, yeah, an
over-regulated or poorly ledworkplace people have stopped
thinking for themselves, sothat's always kind of going to
be a huge risk going forward.
I was also struck, actually, inthe paper you distinguish
between seeing you know,building trust as something

(24:16):
administrative.
It can't be that, and yet somepeople might see it as that and
then it's not real versus youknow a deeper culture, people's
experience, and that requiresthese different skills.
So what's the process fordeveloping leaders?
We've lost some leaders,perhaps from the aviation world.

(24:37):
You mentioned also the impactof the pandemic that we're still
recovering from.
How do we get to build betterleaders in aviation and beyond?

Cate (24:48):
Yes, and I think, kev, you're touching on something
that's very important.
This is not about virtuesignaling.
It's not about puttingsomething, a nice sentence, on
the internet and proclaimingthat we do X, y or Z.
I mean, it's great, if you do,that's absolutely fantastic.
But people are sick and tiredof the empty box where they're

(25:10):
promised something and then theyopen the box and there's
nothing inside it or there'ssomething that really does not
resemble what the packaging saidit would.
So the importance here ofactually having a culture that
really embeds these principlesis fundamental to attracting and
to retaining the skills and thetalent that is needed in the

(25:33):
industry and, I think, for anyindustry.
In all honesty, what we'retalking about here for aviation
is true of any industry.
And how to do that?
Well, the how is always thedifficult question.
I would say, as I mentionedbefore, having the relevant
tools in one's toolbox.
As a leader, slash manager andeven as an employee and even as,

(25:57):
maybe, a graduate intern.
All of these people need toknow how they can go about this.
What must I do?
What can I do?
When something looks good?
How can I reinforce it?
When something does not lookgood, how can I call it out what
are the means to do that, andthat has to be something that is

(26:19):
company-led.
There has to be something inplace that allows people to
function like that, and therealso needs to be education
people to function like that,and there also needs to be
education.
People need to understand theimportance and how to do it and
be given some means, and herethe means are not necessarily a
process.
I mean processes and, believeme, processes are very important

(26:42):
and I think regulation initself is also very important to
drive the right behaviors, aslong as it's done properly and
it's not just done for the sakeof doing it.
Um, so that there is somethingabout outcomes-based regulation.
I think that would probably beanother, another conversation.
Um, but, uh, here the tools canbe coaching, they can be

(27:06):
mentoring.
Uh, they can be.
Uh, they can be go-to people,they can be mentoring, they can
be go-to people, they can beambassadors.
I don't think that here there'snecessarily a one-size-fits-all,
in as much as, although thethemes, the topics and the
issues are always pretty muchexactly the same across the
industry, when we boil it downto the essentials, the level of

(27:27):
maturity of each individual willbe very different and of each
individual will be verydifferent and so their needs
will be very different at anypoint in time, and someone who
doesn't understand this mayactually need a full-blown.
What is this and why are wedoing it?
Before we start theconversation on how do I get
into it, whereas somebody elsemay be going.
Well, I've got a reallydifficult situation here.

(27:49):
Who can I turn to as a soundingboard?
Do I have a coach or a mentorwho could help me through this
with an external view?
So there are different ways ofdoing it and that would be very
much bespoke either to thecompany, possibly even to the
team within the company that isfacing those issues, and, of

(28:11):
course, there is all the PRaround it to make sure that it
is understood, known and itsimportance is known and that
people don't just brush it offas a nice to have.
It's something that needs toget into the DNA of each
organization.

Colin (28:30):
I think it's worth stating just as I wrap this up
now, Kate, you know, and Cathand I have brought to light, you
know, we've talked on a numberof media stories and we focused
on certain industries.
It's just the level of greatwork that goes on within the
industry and we're talking aboutaviation today, almost despite
what's happening above andaround, when I got on a plane

(28:52):
which I do regularly I stillhave that sense of it being
welcoming, I still feel safe.
I'm always attentive during thesafety instructions and you
know, there's a real sense ofpride in providing that service
when actually often thingsbehind really aren't that great
and still, and yet, people cometo work every single day with a

(29:14):
smile on their face doing thework that they need to do to
transport people around theworld in a way that feels, you
know, kind of welcoming andhuman.
So I think we I think thatshould be celebrated whilst at
the same time maintaining thatfocus which you guys are already
doing on well, how do weimprove things behind the scenes
to make everybody's lives justa little bit happier?

Cate (29:34):
Yes, and I think it's.
I wouldn't say that it's not.
It's not good behind the scenes.
I think you know aviation isthe safest mode of transport, or
one of the safest modes oftransport, and that is very much
thanks to the dedication ofeverybody working in it, because
people enter aviation veryoften because there was a
passion for it, they love it andthey really want to make it

(29:57):
work.
And it's about enabling peopleto be able to do exactly that.
That is the important part,Rather than blaming and turning
around and saying you didn't dothat or you did that wrong and
therefore you will be punished.
And this is the important partRather than blaming and turning
around and saying you didn't dothat or you did that wrong and
therefore you will be punished.
And this is the fundamentals ofjust culture and a positive
organizational culture, it's tosay that went wrong, what can we

(30:20):
fix in the system so that itdoesn't go wrong again, and so
what can we learn from this.
And that is far more productiveand it is far safer to behave
like that than to say that wentwrong.
You were behind the wheel, soto speak, at that point in time.
Therefore, it's your fault andwe shall punish you, Because

(30:41):
that is actually completelycounterproductive.
People are just going to hideanything that could be construed
as a mistake that could beconstrued as a mistake.

Colin (30:48):
Okay, fabulous, it's been so great to talk to you, Kate.
At the end of every episode,what we do is we have three
things for people to do getcurious about and uncover, so
that people listening we likethem to take that knowledge and
apply it to the work thatthey're doing.
I've captured a few things,Cath.
I'm not sure if you've captured.
Did you capture anything?
What have you captured, Cath?

Cath (31:09):
Oh well, it was this piece around focusing on the quality
of people's work, not quantity.
So I like the idea we're goingto maximise what get the most
out of people.
But most isn't a quantity thing, it's a quality thing, and I
think if managers have a senseof how can I help people do
better quality work the timethey're here and not just add
more things onto them, thenthat's a really big shift in

(31:33):
where we're going to get to.

Colin (31:40):
Great, I've got that.
So do focus on the quality andnot the quantity of work.
That's a really good one.
I think, for people to getcurious about is what steps is
your industry taking to elevatethe importance of culture?
Kate here talked about the, thegas, the global team that's put
together, which workplaceculture is just one area.
Cath and I have talked aboutsports and the shift in nature
here, and so, yeah, really doget curious about that.
And then the last thing touncover, which is something that

(32:02):
Kate said really early on, iswhether your organization takes
psychological safety asseriously as it does physical
safety.
Kay, it's been so great wemight get you back on kind of
this time.
I don't know, maybe later inthe year or maybe early 2026, if
Cath and I have still got theenergy to keep doing this,
because I'd love to hear how thework stream goes, I'd love to
hear the feedback that you getand you know, kind of what

(32:23):
you're able to do.

Cate (32:24):
Well, thank you very much and thank you for inviting me.
Thank you very much and thankyou for inviting me, and I look
forward to continuing theconversation.

Cath (32:29):
Fantastic Thanks, so much Thanks for listening to today's
Inside Out Culture.

Colin (32:35):
Podcast.
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