February 27, 2025 • 25 mins
The Inside Out Culture podcast is back. In this week’s episode we talk about the changes that have occurred in the last 3 months including those brought on by changes in government.
Specifically we talk about:
- Burnout
- What we’ve seen in politics
- Management skills
- Productivity
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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colin (00:02):
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Hello everybody, and welcome toanother episode of the Inside
Out Culture Podcast.
I'm a little bit rusty.
I can't remember what wenormally say at the top of the
show.
I should really have practicedthat.
How are you?
Nice to see you again?
Cath (00:46):
Yeah, happy New Year.
Even though it's February, itis our first podcast recording
of 2025, and we've been talkingabout it in January, so we
haven't only just thought aboutit today.
But, yeah, it's great to beback and there was just a lot
that's happened since we lastspoke and we've got a lot of
plans about how we can continueto explore what culture looks
like for us and the listeners.
Colin (01:08):
So I think we should probably start with.
Did you take a break overChristmas?
I think one of the things thatwe talked about last year was
burnout and just how tiredeverybody is, and obviously here
in the UK you kind of get to.
I always feel like you runreally, really hard until
Christmas because you knowyou've got a 10 day period of
time where you can just go.
Did that happen for you?
Cath (01:28):
Yeah, it did and I needed it to happen, and I really
packed the laptop away in adifferent room and refused to go
and get it out for probably twoand a half weeks.
And, yeah, it was interesting.
I felt much more consciousabout doing that and being very
deliberate about it and sort ofalso having a kind of complete
don't touch it, and I noticedother people talking about doing
(01:51):
the same.
So, you know, feeling a bitfrazzled coming into Christmas,
you know that sort of overloadand really kind of in the pit of
your stomach knowing I've gotto have a complete break,
otherwise I just can't get going, it won't work like this.
And so I thought that was veryinteresting because I just kept
hearing that sort of time andtime again people saying I
(02:11):
absolutely had to switch off,otherwise I wouldn't be able to,
you know, to survive, let alonethrive.
How about you?
Colin (02:18):
Yeah, no, I did the complete opposite of all of that
.
Yeah, you've had a crazy time,yeah, crazy time.
I had a crazy end to last yearanyway, with the book launch
with Detox, your Culture booklaunch, and so that was a lot of
traveling, a lot of movingabout, and then my wife and I
relocated the entire family backto the UK from Australia, so
you couldn't really get anyfurther away.
(02:41):
Just so we could record thepodcast, just so we could, yeah,
just so we could do thiscommitment in a studio um 100.
So, yeah, that was, uh, it'sbeen a.
It's been a really, reallystressful time.
Uh, I've been on being veryvulnerable here, but probably on
the brink of exhaustion for awhile.
I need to take a break, butneed to plan it in really
because, as we know, it'sstraight back into speeches.
You know, I had a cultureworkshop on the 3rd of January,
(03:03):
so straight back into it.
I'm pretty good at managingstress.
I can spot the signs of stressnow, which is good, and I'm
pretty good at managing it.
But it's just when you addtiredness on top of tiredness on
top of tiredness and everybodywill know this is you just get
to a point where your body willat some stage come to a grinding
halt.
So I'm taking, at the minute,the weekends is completely free
(03:25):
where I'm literally doingnothing, which feels really good
, because when you, I think whenyou work for yourself, you can
never really switch it off.
So I'm trying to do that.
So I've been watching a lot offootball.
I've been reading a lot, whichis good, great.
So they're my ways ofde-stressing.
Cath (03:39):
Any book recommendations.
Colin (03:49):
I'm actually reading a book called SPQR at the minute
which is about it's about thehistory of Rome.
Is that Mary Beard?
Yeah, mary Beard, which it's aChristmas book, so it's a big
thick thing, but I'm absolutelyloving it and, interestingly, of
course, always finding therelevance to my work and to
culture in kind of Roman timesand going back to the Greeks.
It is absolutely fascinating.
Oh, my goodness an antiquitiesepisode.
Cath (04:08):
maybe in the future we should totally do that.
Yeah, because we all thinkwe're reinventing culture,
workplace culture, which nobodytalked about until sort of 20
years ago, but of course it'snothing new.
Nothing new, and we do talkabout that being maybe the
cradle of civilization and allof that sort of thing which
various ancient civilizationsclaim to be.
(04:28):
Um, and that is really where itall comes from.
Colin (04:31):
Yeah, and, and so there was a lot that I was reading
about in the book about Ciceroand his ideas and how he
influenced kind of workingculture.
At the same time, I was readingthese kind of end of year
reviews of the Labour governmenthere in the UK and what have
they achieved in their firstwhatever?
It was six months andeveryone's slightly underwhelmed
(04:53):
.
But of course and that's maybeone of the things that we can
talk about now is kind of thepolitics and how it affects
culture, because as we sit herenow in February 2025, culture is
front and center in the news.
So we should start with the UKbefore we kind of tacitly
mentioned the US.
(05:14):
But I did an interview lastnight for ABC radio in Australia
and talking about kind of howpolitics affects culture and
they was like, oh, is this a newphenomenon?
I was like, well, not reallyculture.
And they was like, oh, is thisa new phenomenon?
I was like, well, not really,because we've always talked
about taxation and how we'd bebetter off.
But it feels like we're talkingabout culture more and more.
Politicians are talking aboutculture more and more Certainly
(05:34):
what we've seen.
Cath (05:35):
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting trend, isn't
it?
There are stories now that hitthe headlines that are around
how people are treated at work,failings within the NHS,
failings within our majorinstitutions, the culture of the
civil service, the impact ofthat and, of course, how our
politicians behave.
We've already got one that'spunched somebody and there's a
by-election coming up, and thosesorts of things have happened
(05:57):
in the past without such areaction.
So there is a shift in socialviews on behaviour that's
acceptable and what we expect ofpeople.
We probably also have a muchgreater insight into what really
happens, because most thingsare now videoed.
So where you might say, oh,nothing really happened, well,
there's usually now some videoevidence, and that kind of
(06:18):
changes things rapidly as well.
It means the whole world seeswhat happens in that particular
event or restaurant or moment orargument, and so, yeah, the US
president is putting culture onthe front pages too.
So culture is political.
It probably always has been butI think the sort of media view
of it, and therefore all of ushaving a view on it, has never
(06:41):
been as front and center that Ican remember in my lifetime as
now.
Colin (06:45):
Yeah, 100% agree, and obviously, as an electorate,
politicians are playing thatback to us.
A great example would be hybridworking.
Now, hybrid working, as Ialways remind people, is only
really available to aboutbetween 17% to 20% of the global
working population.
So it's been a bit of apolitical football between the
(07:08):
right and the left side ofpolitics, where the right are
more like let's bring peopleback and the left are like let's
increase flexibility.
I mean, the obvious answer islet's provide flexible working
for people that need it.
Let's not get people to comeinto the office if they don't
have to.
This flexibility is a reallygood thing.
Obviously, as the electorate,our views are very much
influenced by which side of thefence that we generally sit on,
(07:33):
so we're more likely to vote forthe person who reflects our
views.
And so you're absolutely right,as the social culture
influences how we feel.
Then our politicians pick up onit and say, okay, well, this is
an issue that I'm hearing allof the time.
Why aren't people back in theoffice?
I'm a farmer out in the fields.
Why aren't people working likeI'm working?
(07:54):
It's like, well, they are.
They're just not working in thefield, and so you're right.
It's never been more front andcenter in the news and we get
sent lots of things, which isgreat, and if you've got an
article that you think would beof interest to us, you can drop
us a note inside our culture atgmailcom.
Somebody sent me an articlefrom New Zealand about high
(08:14):
income workers.
So people who earn over acertain threshold under the new
government are losing the rightsto unfair dismissal because
they earn over a certain amount,and again it's an example of
how the politics is respondingto, maybe, what a minority might
be thinking about those whoearn high income.
(08:34):
Yeah, it's fascinating.
Cath (08:35):
The difficulty is, I think , on the return to work question
, that because once it becomespolitical, it becomes either
you're on this side or that sideand, as you say, it's really
difficult.
Some people their work isoutdoors.
For teachers it's clearly verydifficult to be working from
home all the time.
It doesn't mean you can'tcreate some kind of flexibility.
But what we're not looking atis almost what would help us to
(08:59):
do our jobs well, what mighthelp us to get greater
productivity or justeffectiveness, a better
experience at work.
We're sort of saying eitherit's this or it's that.
Are you on the side of everyoneshould be back or are you on
the side of flexibility?
And of course we lose thatnuance about actually what makes
sense and people themselveshaving perhaps a bit more of a
(09:22):
say in that because we're in onecamp or the other.
And that's the danger that anincreased politicization of this
topic brings.
We get less sensible outcomesand that's not good for anyone.
Colin (09:33):
Yeah, and certainly what we've seen and especially seen
this in the US recently is thereactionary nature to the
corporate world, to the thingsthat politicians say, and what's
required is less of a reactionand more exactly, as you say,
considered debate internally tosay, okay, well, here's what the
(09:56):
politicians think.
What do we think?
What's best for our company,what's best for our business?
Where do we need to give ourstaff agency and where is it
better that we have some tighterpolicies on certain things, and
particularly with diversity andinclusion, is the thing that
the new administration in the UShave put on the front page.
Is what's required, is somethought about.
(10:19):
Okay, well, where are we as anorganization?
What have we done?
I mean all of the statisticsaround a more diverse workforce.
They're all positive.
So there's so many gains fororganizations from a diverse
workforce, but do you need amanager to oversee it?
Again, this is a question thateach individual leader needs to
(10:39):
ask to sort of say well, if wehaven't done enough work, we
probably do need someone tocoordinate it, but if it's part
of our business as usual, whichit really really should be, then
maybe we need to think aboutwell, what do we do next?
How do we enhance further whatwe do rather than just reacting?
Going well, they've said that,so we're stopping all of that,
which is that black and whitenature, Cath, that you mentioned
.
Cath (10:58):
Yeah.
So it's interesting.
Dei was something that kind ofwas about HR professionals being
aware of a term that probablymost of the population wouldn't
have heard of, but now everyoneyou know it's suddenly again
it's on the front pages of thenewspapers, but of course we're
losing sight of what it reallymeans.
It's not about quotas.
It's not about are you pro itor against it.
(11:21):
It's always been about helpingus understand what environments
will really enable people to dotheir best work together,
celebrating a wide range ofhuman experiences and
backgrounds and ensuring peoplehave got the resources that will
help them to succeed andovercome unfair barriers.
And that's the conversation wewant.
So, I think, withinorganizations because it's
(11:41):
thrown up and because therefore,people also maybe need a bit
more of a chance to learn aboutit, to feel educated about it,
there is an opportunity to saythis is what it means for us in
real language, human language,not just the acronym, not just
the quotas, sort of you know,simple metrics that it perhaps
has got you know associated with, but to have that conversation
(12:03):
about what sort of workenvironments do we want?
We're all part of those.
What's going to help us to havea better work environment?
Again, coming back to whathelps us to do good work.
Not are you pro this or againstthis, but actually what does it
mean for you and me?
And so I hope that I think theproactive organizations are on
the front foot to say, yeah,let's define this now for
ourselves, how we're investingin it, what it looks like and I
(12:25):
think at times you know, it hasgot parceled off and pushed to
one side and somebody is amanager of this and nobody quite
knows what they're doing andit's hard for them to do their
job as well, because really thisis about all of us, and so I
wonder if there is a shift thatalmost DE&I initially was
getting us more aware of theseissues, of these questions, and
(12:45):
there was a need to understandthe different groups that might
typically be affected, mightmight be women, it might be,
again, different ethnic groups,minority groups.
But I think now maybe there's achance to mature the
conversation and say, okay, howdo we help everyone in our
organization to thrive and thatdoesn't mean that we do the same
things with everyone but how dowe make sure that our programs
(13:08):
are serving us?
And I think there is a chanceto sort of move on now, and I
hear that a little bit in thelanguage from organizational
leaders as well that are sayingthis isn't just about looking
after this pocket or this pocket.
You know, we've maybe donequite a lot of work to help
bring you know, others into, tohave some opportunities that
they didn't have before, youknow, to create more of an
awareness amongst line managers,and so maybe we can get into a
(13:33):
different phase whereorganizations are now thinking,
yeah, what's that thrivingenvironment for everyone?
And so we don't need to call itD-E-N-I-B, it's about that
thriving workplace for all of us.
Colin (13:42):
Yeah, I agree.
I think one of the episodesthat we're going to record might
even be the next episode aroundvibrant culture.
What does that vibrancy looklike?
It's one word that we recognizeis you're bringing together a
group of human beings who aretrying to do the best that they
can with what they have, and howdo we create the environment in
order to enable them to do that?
(14:03):
And we're not thinking aboutwhich box do we need to put them
in in order for them to do that.
It's about really how do wecollectively create the
environment to give us the bestchance of success, and then
putting in measures thatactually measure the outcomes
that we achieve, rather than theboxes that we tick, which is
something that you alluded to.
(14:23):
One of the other interestingdevelopments over, certainly
over the end of the year andinto this year, is the four-day
working week.
I don't know if you've seenmuch about that, Cath, but Spain
legislate I read about thisthis morning that Spain have
legislated a reduction in thelegal working week from 40 hours
to 37 and a half, and I thinkhere in the UK there have been
(14:44):
many companies trialing thefour-day week to sort of say,
well, how can we achieve what wecurrently achieve in five days,
in four days, whilst payingpeople the same amount of money.
So again, that's another thing.
Cath (14:55):
So that comes actually back to this productivity
question, doesn't it Like?
It's not just are you in theoffice, are you not in the
office.
It's like are you doing helpfulwork, work that matters, work
that's actually going towardsour objective, not just are you
busy either at home or in theoffice?
The danger is that thispolarised debate moves us away
from actually what helps us todo the best work that will help
(15:15):
us to again thrive nationallythrough our economic growth, but
also individually, and so Ithink those are very interesting
because they also feelcounterintuitive.
We work less hours but weachieve more.
But that's how stupid we'vebecome.
That our habits of working, theamount of distractions we have
around us and this sense thatwe've got to be present in order
(15:39):
to show commitment All of thesethings are actually reducing
how effective we are and howfulfilling work life is.
So I really welcome those.
I think it's so interestingbecause again, you see people
sort of really struggling to gettheir heads around it because
we have this more is better.
You know that sort of drillthrough us.
(15:59):
You know that work ethic thatneed to.
Surely if I'm staying longerhours, I'm doing more, but of
course our brains are overloaded.
We make less good decisions.
When we're tired, we're lessable to reflect, see things from
a perspective, understand,listen to others' views.
So I think that's a reallyexciting trend and I hope that
that's one that really starts togain better traction.
(16:21):
And the more evidence there isaround that, the more it pushes
us to say actually, let's notthink about just the number of
hours, but the productivityelement of it, even though
productivity is not a word I'mtotally comfortable with,
because I feel it's sort ofmaking us all feel like machines
and we're producing stuffrather than human beings working
together, creating in differentways, doing a.
(16:41):
But for me, that's the question.
We have not moved the dial onfor decades.
We work longer and longer hoursin the UK, longer hours than
the rest of Europe and ourproductivity is lower.
That needs addressing for somany different reasons, and so,
yeah, I think those are reallykind of good offer of sort of
way forward potentially for us.
Colin (17:03):
I got asked the question at the start of January.
Somebody said oh, if you couldgive us one piece of advice,
what would it be?
And I said be less busy.
We naturally assume thatincessant and constant action is
a good thing, and it's not.
It's a really, really bad thingbecause we think that that
equals an enhanced sense ofproductivity and outcome
(17:25):
delivery, or maybe even, I feel,more useful, or what we've seen
in the corporate world.
A lot is, I feel, moreimportant and, of course, it's
really important that action istaken, but just constantly
working on stuff that doesn'tactually link to an outcome that
you're looking to achieve isabsolutely stupid.
Cath (17:44):
I mean it is gumming up Whitehall.
It is gumming up massivecorporates hugely.
Where in the middle of theorganization, what are people
spending their time on?
Is it stuff that's moving thedial or in a rowing world?
Are you spending your time onstuff that's making the boat go
faster?
Another hour in the gym?
Well, if it's not actuallymaking you fitter or stronger
(18:04):
because you've done yourtraining for the day, it's
pointless.
And I think people don't alwayshave that sense.
They're so overloaded they dothe last email that's come in or
somebody that's just phonedthem up.
They do the urgent stuff, notthe important stuff, and then
you look back over six monthsand nothing's really moved
forward.
We've sort of answeredgazillions of emails and
actually that's you know.
Coming back to this term,productivity, it isn't busyness,
(18:26):
it's actually doing stuff thatshifts the dial in the really
clear objectives that you have.
That you know.
Clarity is a huge part of thisas well, and you know I love
Oliver Berkman's writing on this.
He's booked 4,000 weeks andmeditations for mortals, which
you know also kind of tell usnot to get into the productivity
tool trap.
That.
(18:47):
Oh, I'm just going to schedulethings a bit more, I'm going to
squeeze some more things in here, you know, because all of these
extra tools we've had over thelast few decades haven't
actually made us more productive.
So you've got to get away fromquantity to quality.
That's a phrase actually that isringing my ears, sort of from
the last week working with acouple of leadership teams.
(19:08):
You know the organization isgoing to move forward by people
doing more stuff.
We can't just add more actions,more tasks, it's actually doing
the things that matter, andtherefore they need to have the
headspace and the clarity to beable to make those decisions,
because you can't get insidetheir heads and tell them what
to do, and so actually your roleis much more clarifying so that
people understand what it isthey've got to do.
(19:29):
But that's difficult becausethere's so much noise now coming
in.
We've got, you know, 20 windowsopen on our computer, and so
unless we've got a really clearthought process, we're not
spending our time on the stuffthat matters.
Colin (19:40):
Yeah, we're not.
The response I had from onemanager is like oh, it's easy to
say that, but it's difficult todo.
I was like well, I understandwhy you would say that, but
actually, if you educated yourmanagers in exactly the right
way to do things, it onlyactually needs 15% of them
statistically to actually stickto those new promises that
they've made to each other Feweremails, fewer meetings, more
(20:01):
emphasis on doing meaningfulwork that actually aligns to an
outcome that you're looking toachieve.
You only need 15% to change theentire culture of the
organization.
Now, of course, depending onthe size of the organization,
15% could be a lot of people,but how important is this to you
?
Often, I'll hear senior leaderssaying we're just not productive
enough.
We need to think about waysthat we can use AI.
(20:22):
Well, it's still going to behumans working the AI and it's
about input, output.
So, actually, what you need todo and middle managers are still
the biggest difference betweensuccess and failure within
organizations and they arecrying out for the skills to
actually enable them to do thework that they want to do in
less time.
They don't want to be sat inmeetings hour after hour.
(20:42):
They don't want to be on thetrain, like I saw this morning,
people check the guy next to me.
His inbox was just completelyfull.
He had about 400 open emails.
I didn't look at what they said, I just saw the unread mark and
obviously it broke me out intohives.
I'm like, oh my gosh, how canhe do that?
But that's what people don'twant, that what they want is
time to do the thing thatthey're paid to do, so they can
(21:03):
go home at night and say I had areally good job, feel a sense
of fulfillment at the end of theweek, get paid to do that work
so they can tell their friends Iwork for a really good
organization that gives me theskills I need to do the job that
I want to do.
Cath (21:15):
Yeah, that clarity of thought I think is going to be a
really big theme.
What you know, for leaders, formanagers, what can I do to help
my team, you know, give themclarity and then re-clarify and
help enable them to clarify forthemselves and for their
colleagues.
If we bring that into themeetings, it means we stay on
the stuff that matters and wequestion well, I'm not clear how
(21:38):
this fits into something.
We need more of that.
Well, let me actually spend mytime here, and those
conversations aren't alwayshappening and we need a bit of
headspace to reflect on.
Actually, I've got all thesethings, I've got a massive to-do
list.
I can't possibly do all thattoday, so how do I spend time?
I've got to be able to thinkfor myself.
I've got to be able to kind ofstep back and do that, and I
(22:00):
think sometimes we renderourselves stupid by just the
volume meeting back to back, etcetera.
There's a lovely piece of work.
We'll put a link to it someresearch that's just starting by
Megan Wright, who works at Holtand Ashridge, around
spaciousness, which is justdelicious to sort of lean into,
and interviewing people aboutwhat spaciousness means and in
(22:21):
itself.
Then suddenly people open uptheir minds to how we feel if
we're out, maybe in a naturalspace, or just doing work that
we love, or really connected toother.
We feel if we're out, maybe in anatural space or just doing
work that we love, or reallyconnected to other people, and
we need that in order to beintelligent, in order to kind of
unlock that ability to do thethings that matter, stop and
reflect and review and connectand thrive, rather than try and
(22:43):
treat ourselves like robots,which we actually do very poorly
then, because we're not and weget less and less effective at
what we do.
So there are some reallythoughtful projects out there,
research out there, that,because otherwise we're going to
disappear up our backsidesworking like this, and I think
that's going to be a reallyimportant aspect of how people
(23:03):
bring that into the workplace.
When the system pushing you todo more and more and more is so
strong, we've got to have anequal and opposite force to do
something differently.
But of course, it's throughleadership that that's your real
opportunity to put differentconversations in.
Colin (23:19):
So, first podcast, back for 2025, we've laid down a few
markers there.
There's what we talked aboutDEI.
We talked about burnout.
We talked about productivity.
We talked about burnout, wetalked about productivity.
We talked about middle managerskills.
We want to know what you want tohear about.
You know your call to actionfor this podcast is to drop us a
note.
We literally love to hear fromyou.
We respond to every email weget.
(23:40):
If there's something that youwant to share with us either a
piece of research, please do.
If you've got research that youfeel that would you know, kind
of give us something to talkabout in the podcast.
We'd love to read that.
If you've got a question, ofcourse we'll answer your
questions, as we always do.
If you've got a topic you'dlike us to cover again, we're
happy to consider that.
Or if you want Cath and I tocome and be part of your
(24:01):
learning week, if you're doing aculture learning week, or if
you want us to come to yourorganisation and answer
questions on culture, we're morethan happy to do that, aren't
we, Cath?
We are, aren't?
Cath (24:11):
we.
Yeah, definitely One of thethings that we enjoyed so much
last year and one of the thingsthat we also got your feedback
on was around the questionsepisodes that get into the but
what about this, but what aboutthat?
And so, yeah, definitely keepthose coming.
We also kind of gather thosesort of in the course of doing
(24:34):
our work, but I think that's,you know, it's a really
important part of making surethat this podcast stays relevant
, in helping you and all of usin this space to increase our
competence and confidence, tobuild thriving cultures and, if
you think this other peoplewould like this podcast.
Colin (24:45):
Please do share it with them, and we'd be hugely
grateful, as we have been today,for anybody who gives us a
little review.
That's the way that we buildand grow the podcast is by
people sharing it, people likingit, people leaving comments.
So thank you for those thathave done it and thank you in
advance to everybody else who isgoing to do it.
Cath (25:02):
And that's a wrap.
Yeah, thanks for listening.
Thanks, thanks for listening totoday's Inside Out.
Colin (25:08):
Culture Podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested.
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Hello everybody, and welcome toanother episode of the Inside
Out Culture Podcast.
I'm a little bit rusty.
I can't remember what wenormally say at the top of the
show.
I should really have practicedthat.
How are you?
Nice to see you again?
Cath (00:46):
Yeah, happy New Year.
Even though it's February, itis our first podcast recording
of 2025, and we've been talkingabout it in January, so we
haven't only just thought aboutit today.
But, yeah, it's great to beback and there was just a lot
that's happened since we lastspoke and we've got a lot of
plans about how we can continueto explore what culture looks
like for us and the listeners.
Colin (01:08):
So I think we should probably start with.
Did you take a break overChristmas?
I think one of the things thatwe talked about last year was
burnout and just how tiredeverybody is, and obviously here
in the UK you kind of get to.
I always feel like you runreally, really hard until
Christmas because you knowyou've got a 10 day period of
time where you can just go.
Did that happen for you?
Cath (01:28):
Yeah, it did and I needed it to happen, and I really
packed the laptop away in adifferent room and refused to go
and get it out for probably twoand a half weeks.
And, yeah, it was interesting.
I felt much more consciousabout doing that and being very
deliberate about it and sort ofalso having a kind of complete
don't touch it, and I noticedother people talking about doing
(01:51):
the same.
So, you know, feeling a bitfrazzled coming into Christmas,
you know that sort of overloadand really kind of in the pit of
your stomach knowing I've gotto have a complete break,
otherwise I just can't get going, it won't work like this.
And so I thought that was veryinteresting because I just kept
hearing that sort of time andtime again people saying I
(02:11):
absolutely had to switch off,otherwise I wouldn't be able to,
you know, to survive, let alonethrive.
How about you?
Colin (02:18):
Yeah, no, I did the complete opposite of all of that
.
Yeah, you've had a crazy time,yeah, crazy time.
I had a crazy end to last yearanyway, with the book launch
with Detox, your Culture booklaunch, and so that was a lot of
traveling, a lot of movingabout, and then my wife and I
relocated the entire family backto the UK from Australia, so
you couldn't really get anyfurther away.
(02:41):
Just so we could record thepodcast, just so we could, yeah,
just so we could do thiscommitment in a studio um 100.
So, yeah, that was, uh, it'sbeen a.
It's been a really, reallystressful time.
Uh, I've been on being veryvulnerable here, but probably on
the brink of exhaustion for awhile.
I need to take a break, butneed to plan it in really
because, as we know, it'sstraight back into speeches.
You know, I had a cultureworkshop on the 3rd of January,
(03:03):
so straight back into it.
I'm pretty good at managingstress.
I can spot the signs of stressnow, which is good, and I'm
pretty good at managing it.
But it's just when you addtiredness on top of tiredness on
top of tiredness and everybodywill know this is you just get
to a point where your body willat some stage come to a grinding
halt.
So I'm taking, at the minute,the weekends is completely free
(03:25):
where I'm literally doingnothing, which feels really good
, because when you, I think whenyou work for yourself, you can
never really switch it off.
So I'm trying to do that.
So I've been watching a lot offootball.
I've been reading a lot, whichis good, great.
So they're my ways ofde-stressing.
Cath (03:39):
Any book recommendations.
Colin (03:49):
I'm actually reading a book called SPQR at the minute
which is about it's about thehistory of Rome.
Is that Mary Beard?
Yeah, mary Beard, which it's aChristmas book, so it's a big
thick thing, but I'm absolutelyloving it and, interestingly, of
course, always finding therelevance to my work and to
culture in kind of Roman timesand going back to the Greeks.
It is absolutely fascinating.
Oh, my goodness an antiquitiesepisode.
Cath (04:08):
maybe in the future we should totally do that.
Yeah, because we all thinkwe're reinventing culture,
workplace culture, which nobodytalked about until sort of 20
years ago, but of course it'snothing new.
Nothing new, and we do talkabout that being maybe the
cradle of civilization and allof that sort of thing which
various ancient civilizationsclaim to be.
(04:28):
Um, and that is really where itall comes from.
Colin (04:31):
Yeah, and, and so there was a lot that I was reading
about in the book about Ciceroand his ideas and how he
influenced kind of workingculture.
At the same time, I was readingthese kind of end of year
reviews of the Labour governmenthere in the UK and what have
they achieved in their firstwhatever?
It was six months andeveryone's slightly underwhelmed
(04:53):
.
But of course and that's maybeone of the things that we can
talk about now is kind of thepolitics and how it affects
culture, because as we sit herenow in February 2025, culture is
front and center in the news.
So we should start with the UKbefore we kind of tacitly
mentioned the US.
(05:14):
But I did an interview lastnight for ABC radio in Australia
and talking about kind of howpolitics affects culture and
they was like, oh, is this a newphenomenon?
I was like, well, not reallyculture.
And they was like, oh, is thisa new phenomenon?
I was like, well, not really,because we've always talked
about taxation and how we'd bebetter off.
But it feels like we're talkingabout culture more and more.
Politicians are talking aboutculture more and more Certainly
(05:34):
what we've seen.
Cath (05:35):
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting trend, isn't
it?
There are stories now that hitthe headlines that are around
how people are treated at work,failings within the NHS,
failings within our majorinstitutions, the culture of the
civil service, the impact ofthat and, of course, how our
politicians behave.
We've already got one that'spunched somebody and there's a
by-election coming up, and thosesorts of things have happened
(05:57):
in the past without such areaction.
So there is a shift in socialviews on behaviour that's
acceptable and what we expect ofpeople.
We probably also have a muchgreater insight into what really
happens, because most thingsare now videoed.
So where you might say, oh,nothing really happened, well,
there's usually now some videoevidence, and that kind of
(06:18):
changes things rapidly as well.
It means the whole world seeswhat happens in that particular
event or restaurant or moment orargument, and so, yeah, the US
president is putting culture onthe front pages too.
So culture is political.
It probably always has been butI think the sort of media view
of it, and therefore all of ushaving a view on it, has never
(06:41):
been as front and center that Ican remember in my lifetime as
now.
Colin (06:45):
Yeah, 100% agree, and obviously, as an electorate,
politicians are playing thatback to us.
A great example would be hybridworking.
Now, hybrid working, as Ialways remind people, is only
really available to aboutbetween 17% to 20% of the global
working population.
So it's been a bit of apolitical football between the
(07:08):
right and the left side ofpolitics, where the right are
more like let's bring peopleback and the left are like let's
increase flexibility.
I mean, the obvious answer islet's provide flexible working
for people that need it.
Let's not get people to comeinto the office if they don't
have to.
This flexibility is a reallygood thing.
Obviously, as the electorate,our views are very much
influenced by which side of thefence that we generally sit on,
(07:33):
so we're more likely to vote forthe person who reflects our
views.
And so you're absolutely right,as the social culture
influences how we feel.
Then our politicians pick up onit and say, okay, well, this is
an issue that I'm hearing allof the time.
Why aren't people back in theoffice?
I'm a farmer out in the fields.
Why aren't people working likeI'm working?
(07:54):
It's like, well, they are.
They're just not working in thefield, and so you're right.
It's never been more front andcenter in the news and we get
sent lots of things, which isgreat, and if you've got an
article that you think would beof interest to us, you can drop
us a note inside our culture atgmailcom.
Somebody sent me an articlefrom New Zealand about high
(08:14):
income workers.
So people who earn over acertain threshold under the new
government are losing the rightsto unfair dismissal because
they earn over a certain amount,and again it's an example of
how the politics is respondingto, maybe, what a minority might
be thinking about those whoearn high income.
(08:34):
Yeah, it's fascinating.
Cath (08:35):
The difficulty is, I think , on the return to work question
, that because once it becomespolitical, it becomes either
you're on this side or that sideand, as you say, it's really
difficult.
Some people their work isoutdoors.
For teachers it's clearly verydifficult to be working from
home all the time.
It doesn't mean you can'tcreate some kind of flexibility.
But what we're not looking atis almost what would help us to
(08:59):
do our jobs well, what mighthelp us to get greater
productivity or justeffectiveness, a better
experience at work.
We're sort of saying eitherit's this or it's that.
Are you on the side of everyoneshould be back or are you on
the side of flexibility?
And of course we lose thatnuance about actually what makes
sense and people themselveshaving perhaps a bit more of a
(09:22):
say in that because we're in onecamp or the other.
And that's the danger that anincreased politicization of this
topic brings.
We get less sensible outcomesand that's not good for anyone.
Colin (09:33):
Yeah, and certainly what we've seen and especially seen
this in the US recently is thereactionary nature to the
corporate world, to the thingsthat politicians say, and what's
required is less of a reactionand more exactly, as you say,
considered debate internally tosay, okay, well, here's what the
(09:56):
politicians think.
What do we think?
What's best for our company,what's best for our business?
Where do we need to give ourstaff agency and where is it
better that we have some tighterpolicies on certain things, and
particularly with diversity andinclusion, is the thing that
the new administration in the UShave put on the front page.
Is what's required, is somethought about.
(10:19):
Okay, well, where are we as anorganization?
What have we done?
I mean all of the statisticsaround a more diverse workforce.
They're all positive.
So there's so many gains fororganizations from a diverse
workforce, but do you need amanager to oversee it?
Again, this is a question thateach individual leader needs to
(10:39):
ask to sort of say well, if wehaven't done enough work, we
probably do need someone tocoordinate it, but if it's part
of our business as usual, whichit really really should be, then
maybe we need to think aboutwell, what do we do next?
How do we enhance further whatwe do rather than just reacting?
Going well, they've said that,so we're stopping all of that,
which is that black and whitenature, Cath, that you mentioned
.
Cath (10:58):
Yeah.
So it's interesting.
Dei was something that kind ofwas about HR professionals being
aware of a term that probablymost of the population wouldn't
have heard of, but now everyoneyou know it's suddenly again
it's on the front pages of thenewspapers, but of course we're
losing sight of what it reallymeans.
It's not about quotas.
It's not about are you pro itor against it.
(11:21):
It's always been about helpingus understand what environments
will really enable people to dotheir best work together,
celebrating a wide range ofhuman experiences and
backgrounds and ensuring peoplehave got the resources that will
help them to succeed andovercome unfair barriers.
And that's the conversation wewant.
So, I think, withinorganizations because it's
(11:41):
thrown up and because therefore,people also maybe need a bit
more of a chance to learn aboutit, to feel educated about it,
there is an opportunity to saythis is what it means for us in
real language, human language,not just the acronym, not just
the quotas, sort of you know,simple metrics that it perhaps
has got you know associated with, but to have that conversation
(12:03):
about what sort of workenvironments do we want?
We're all part of those.
What's going to help us to havea better work environment?
Again, coming back to whathelps us to do good work.
Not are you pro this or againstthis, but actually what does it
mean for you and me?
And so I hope that I think theproactive organizations are on
the front foot to say, yeah,let's define this now for
ourselves, how we're investingin it, what it looks like and I
(12:25):
think at times you know, it hasgot parceled off and pushed to
one side and somebody is amanager of this and nobody quite
knows what they're doing andit's hard for them to do their
job as well, because really thisis about all of us, and so I
wonder if there is a shift thatalmost DE&I initially was
getting us more aware of theseissues, of these questions, and
(12:45):
there was a need to understandthe different groups that might
typically be affected, mightmight be women, it might be,
again, different ethnic groups,minority groups.
But I think now maybe there's achance to mature the
conversation and say, okay, howdo we help everyone in our
organization to thrive and thatdoesn't mean that we do the same
things with everyone but how dowe make sure that our programs
(13:08):
are serving us?
And I think there is a chanceto sort of move on now, and I
hear that a little bit in thelanguage from organizational
leaders as well that are sayingthis isn't just about looking
after this pocket or this pocket.
You know, we've maybe donequite a lot of work to help
bring you know, others into, tohave some opportunities that
they didn't have before, youknow, to create more of an
awareness amongst line managers,and so maybe we can get into a
(13:33):
different phase whereorganizations are now thinking,
yeah, what's that thrivingenvironment for everyone?
And so we don't need to call itD-E-N-I-B, it's about that
thriving workplace for all of us.
Colin (13:42):
Yeah, I agree.
I think one of the episodesthat we're going to record might
even be the next episode aroundvibrant culture.
What does that vibrancy looklike?
It's one word that we recognizeis you're bringing together a
group of human beings who aretrying to do the best that they
can with what they have, and howdo we create the environment in
order to enable them to do that?
(14:03):
And we're not thinking aboutwhich box do we need to put them
in in order for them to do that.
It's about really how do wecollectively create the
environment to give us the bestchance of success, and then
putting in measures thatactually measure the outcomes
that we achieve, rather than theboxes that we tick, which is
something that you alluded to.
(14:23):
One of the other interestingdevelopments over, certainly
over the end of the year andinto this year, is the four-day
working week.
I don't know if you've seenmuch about that, Cath, but Spain
legislate I read about thisthis morning that Spain have
legislated a reduction in thelegal working week from 40 hours
to 37 and a half, and I thinkhere in the UK there have been
(14:44):
many companies trialing thefour-day week to sort of say,
well, how can we achieve what wecurrently achieve in five days,
in four days, whilst payingpeople the same amount of money.
So again, that's another thing.
Cath (14:55):
So that comes actually back to this productivity
question, doesn't it Like?
It's not just are you in theoffice, are you not in the
office.
It's like are you doing helpfulwork, work that matters, work
that's actually going towardsour objective, not just are you
busy either at home or in theoffice?
The danger is that thispolarised debate moves us away
from actually what helps us todo the best work that will help
(15:15):
us to again thrive nationallythrough our economic growth, but
also individually, and so Ithink those are very interesting
because they also feelcounterintuitive.
We work less hours but weachieve more.
But that's how stupid we'vebecome.
That our habits of working, theamount of distractions we have
around us and this sense thatwe've got to be present in order
(15:39):
to show commitment All of thesethings are actually reducing
how effective we are and howfulfilling work life is.
So I really welcome those.
I think it's so interestingbecause again, you see people
sort of really struggling to gettheir heads around it because
we have this more is better.
You know that sort of drillthrough us.
(15:59):
You know that work ethic thatneed to.
Surely if I'm staying longerhours, I'm doing more, but of
course our brains are overloaded.
We make less good decisions.
When we're tired, we're lessable to reflect, see things from
a perspective, understand,listen to others' views.
So I think that's a reallyexciting trend and I hope that
that's one that really starts togain better traction.
(16:21):
And the more evidence there isaround that, the more it pushes
us to say actually, let's notthink about just the number of
hours, but the productivityelement of it, even though
productivity is not a word I'mtotally comfortable with,
because I feel it's sort ofmaking us all feel like machines
and we're producing stuffrather than human beings working
together, creating in differentways, doing a.
(16:41):
But for me, that's the question.
We have not moved the dial onfor decades.
We work longer and longer hoursin the UK, longer hours than
the rest of Europe and ourproductivity is lower.
That needs addressing for somany different reasons, and so,
yeah, I think those are reallykind of good offer of sort of
way forward potentially for us.
Colin (17:03):
I got asked the question at the start of January.
Somebody said oh, if you couldgive us one piece of advice,
what would it be?
And I said be less busy.
We naturally assume thatincessant and constant action is
a good thing, and it's not.
It's a really, really bad thingbecause we think that that
equals an enhanced sense ofproductivity and outcome
(17:25):
delivery, or maybe even, I feel,more useful, or what we've seen
in the corporate world.
A lot is, I feel, moreimportant and, of course, it's
really important that action istaken, but just constantly
working on stuff that doesn'tactually link to an outcome that
you're looking to achieve isabsolutely stupid.
Cath (17:44):
I mean it is gumming up Whitehall.
It is gumming up massivecorporates hugely.
Where in the middle of theorganization, what are people
spending their time on?
Is it stuff that's moving thedial or in a rowing world?
Are you spending your time onstuff that's making the boat go
faster?
Another hour in the gym?
Well, if it's not actuallymaking you fitter or stronger
(18:04):
because you've done yourtraining for the day, it's
pointless.
And I think people don't alwayshave that sense.
They're so overloaded they dothe last email that's come in or
somebody that's just phonedthem up.
They do the urgent stuff, notthe important stuff, and then
you look back over six monthsand nothing's really moved
forward.
We've sort of answeredgazillions of emails and
actually that's you know.
Coming back to this term,productivity, it isn't busyness,
(18:26):
it's actually doing stuff thatshifts the dial in the really
clear objectives that you have.
That you know.
Clarity is a huge part of thisas well, and you know I love
Oliver Berkman's writing on this.
He's booked 4,000 weeks andmeditations for mortals, which
you know also kind of tell usnot to get into the productivity
tool trap.
That.
(18:47):
Oh, I'm just going to schedulethings a bit more, I'm going to
squeeze some more things in here, you know, because all of these
extra tools we've had over thelast few decades haven't
actually made us more productive.
So you've got to get away fromquantity to quality.
That's a phrase actually that isringing my ears, sort of from
the last week working with acouple of leadership teams.
(19:08):
You know the organization isgoing to move forward by people
doing more stuff.
We can't just add more actions,more tasks, it's actually doing
the things that matter, andtherefore they need to have the
headspace and the clarity to beable to make those decisions,
because you can't get insidetheir heads and tell them what
to do, and so actually your roleis much more clarifying so that
people understand what it isthey've got to do.
(19:29):
But that's difficult becausethere's so much noise now coming
in.
We've got, you know, 20 windowsopen on our computer, and so
unless we've got a really clearthought process, we're not
spending our time on the stuffthat matters.
Colin (19:40):
Yeah, we're not.
The response I had from onemanager is like oh, it's easy to
say that, but it's difficult todo.
I was like well, I understandwhy you would say that, but
actually, if you educated yourmanagers in exactly the right
way to do things, it onlyactually needs 15% of them
statistically to actually stickto those new promises that
they've made to each other Feweremails, fewer meetings, more
(20:01):
emphasis on doing meaningfulwork that actually aligns to an
outcome that you're looking toachieve.
You only need 15% to change theentire culture of the
organization.
Now, of course, depending onthe size of the organization,
15% could be a lot of people,but how important is this to you
?
Often, I'll hear senior leaderssaying we're just not productive
enough.
We need to think about waysthat we can use AI.
(20:22):
Well, it's still going to behumans working the AI and it's
about input, output.
So, actually, what you need todo and middle managers are still
the biggest difference betweensuccess and failure within
organizations and they arecrying out for the skills to
actually enable them to do thework that they want to do in
less time.
They don't want to be sat inmeetings hour after hour.
(20:42):
They don't want to be on thetrain, like I saw this morning,
people check the guy next to me.
His inbox was just completelyfull.
He had about 400 open emails.
I didn't look at what they said, I just saw the unread mark and
obviously it broke me out intohives.
I'm like, oh my gosh, how canhe do that?
But that's what people don'twant, that what they want is
time to do the thing thatthey're paid to do, so they can
(21:03):
go home at night and say I had areally good job, feel a sense
of fulfillment at the end of theweek, get paid to do that work
so they can tell their friends Iwork for a really good
organization that gives me theskills I need to do the job that
I want to do.
Cath (21:15):
Yeah, that clarity of thought I think is going to be a
really big theme.
What you know, for leaders, formanagers, what can I do to help
my team, you know, give themclarity and then re-clarify and
help enable them to clarify forthemselves and for their
colleagues.
If we bring that into themeetings, it means we stay on
the stuff that matters and wequestion well, I'm not clear how
(21:38):
this fits into something.
We need more of that.
Well, let me actually spend mytime here, and those
conversations aren't alwayshappening and we need a bit of
headspace to reflect on.
Actually, I've got all thesethings, I've got a massive to-do
list.
I can't possibly do all thattoday, so how do I spend time?
I've got to be able to thinkfor myself.
I've got to be able to kind ofstep back and do that, and I
(22:00):
think sometimes we renderourselves stupid by just the
volume meeting back to back, etcetera.
There's a lovely piece of work.
We'll put a link to it someresearch that's just starting by
Megan Wright, who works at Holtand Ashridge, around
spaciousness, which is justdelicious to sort of lean into,
and interviewing people aboutwhat spaciousness means and in
(22:21):
itself.
Then suddenly people open uptheir minds to how we feel if
we're out, maybe in a naturalspace, or just doing work that
we love, or really connected toother.
We feel if we're out, maybe in anatural space or just doing
work that we love, or reallyconnected to other people, and
we need that in order to beintelligent, in order to kind of
unlock that ability to do thethings that matter, stop and
reflect and review and connectand thrive, rather than try and
(22:43):
treat ourselves like robots,which we actually do very poorly
then, because we're not and weget less and less effective at
what we do.
So there are some reallythoughtful projects out there,
research out there, that,because otherwise we're going to
disappear up our backsidesworking like this, and I think
that's going to be a reallyimportant aspect of how people
(23:03):
bring that into the workplace.
When the system pushing you todo more and more and more is so
strong, we've got to have anequal and opposite force to do
something differently.
But of course, it's throughleadership that that's your real
opportunity to put differentconversations in.
Colin (23:19):
So, first podcast, back for 2025, we've laid down a few
markers there.
There's what we talked aboutDEI.
We talked about burnout.
We talked about productivity.
We talked about burnout, wetalked about productivity.
We talked about middle managerskills.
We want to know what you want tohear about.
You know your call to actionfor this podcast is to drop us a
note.
We literally love to hear fromyou.
We respond to every email weget.
(23:40):
If there's something that youwant to share with us either a
piece of research, please do.
If you've got research that youfeel that would you know, kind
of give us something to talkabout in the podcast.
We'd love to read that.
If you've got a question, ofcourse we'll answer your
questions, as we always do.
If you've got a topic you'dlike us to cover again, we're
happy to consider that.
Or if you want Cath and I tocome and be part of your
(24:01):
learning week, if you're doing aculture learning week, or if
you want us to come to yourorganisation and answer
questions on culture, we're morethan happy to do that, aren't
we, Cath?
We are, aren't?
Cath (24:11):
we.
Yeah, definitely One of thethings that we enjoyed so much
last year and one of the thingsthat we also got your feedback
on was around the questionsepisodes that get into the but
what about this, but what aboutthat?
And so, yeah, definitely keepthose coming.
We also kind of gather thosesort of in the course of doing
(24:34):
our work, but I think that's,you know, it's a really
important part of making surethat this podcast stays relevant
, in helping you and all of usin this space to increase our
competence and confidence, tobuild thriving cultures and, if
you think this other peoplewould like this podcast.
Colin (24:45):
Please do share it with them, and we'd be hugely
grateful, as we have been today,for anybody who gives us a
little review.
That's the way that we buildand grow the podcast is by
people sharing it, people likingit, people leaving comments.
So thank you for those thathave done it and thank you in
advance to everybody else who isgoing to do it.
Cath (25:02):
And that's a wrap.
Yeah, thanks for listening.
Thanks, thanks for listening totoday's Inside Out.
Colin (25:08):
Culture Podcast.
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In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com