July 11, 2024 • 31 mins
One of the things we love about our work is not only uncovering great books, papers and articles on culture, but also sharing them with others so that they can benefit from them too.
So, on this week’s episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast - ahead of the summer break in the northern hemisphere and the winter hibernation in the southern hemisphere! - we are sharing our favourite culture books with you!
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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colin (00:02):
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Cath (00:33):
Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast.
It's something a littledifferent.
This week, we are going to talkabout our favourite books that
have influenced our thinkingabout culture.
Both Colin and I are reallykeen readers and we're often
discussing books and sendingeach other messages about
various books, and it's a reallykey part of our work lives, our
(00:54):
lives as writers as well, andso we thought, with summer
holidays coming up, that we'dshare a few of our
recommendations, which mightinspire you to read one of these
or to go and find another onethat you'd like to read to
continue your thinking aboutculture.
So, before we dive into thebooks, tell us a bit first of
all, colin, about the role ofreading and books in your life.
Colin (01:14):
Well, I've always been a reader.
I always think these thingsstart with your parents.
Mom and dad were readers.
They used to read me books askids, something that we did with
our kids to try and ignite thatcuriosity around reading.
But but, working for myself, Irealized that as a manager I had
a set way of building teams,building cultures, and it really
worked.
But when I, when I startedworking myself, I realized that
(01:35):
actually for me to be able topromote what I do and to help
others, then there has to besome science behind it.
I have to read what otherpeople have written.
I think if you want to write abook, you have have to read
books to really.
You know, sometimes you'llagree with things, sometimes you
won't agree with things andusually that sparks an idea that
then you can write about.
And often the blogs that Iwrite is based on something that
(01:56):
I've read and I go I reallyagree with that or I really
disagree with that.
So for me, books play a bigpart in my life and, you know,
at the end of all of my books Ialways credit, I always list all
of the books that I've read,because I think, you know, I
have to credit these people with.
You know the ideas that they'vegenerated.
How about you, Cath?
Cath (02:17):
Yes, so huge connection as well.
Lifelong really Grew up in ahouse with lots of books and I
am a definite book addict.
I should probably go to groupwhere we discuss book addiction,
because I buy far too many, andso they're literally piling up
around my house, my workplace,my bed, everything, I think.
Also, when I came into workingin this area, a good sort of 10
(02:39):
years ago now, I've keptthinking I don't know if I'm
qualified enough for this, and Ithink just the breadth of the
area that it coversunderstanding human behavior,
psychology, anthropology,neuroscience there's such a
breadth that you constantly wantto be understanding other
influences to help us do work.
(03:00):
That is quite holistic.
You're working at lots ofdifferent levels.
You might be thinking aboutmindsets and beliefs in a
workplace, or you might bethinking about behaviors or
relationships, and so then youfind yourself going off into a
corner of.
I need to understand more aboutrelationship theory.
That comes from parenting even,and family therapy is where
that thinking started.
And then, of course, actuallywhen I was an athlete, I'd read
(03:21):
a lot about sports psychology.
Else, actually, when I was anathlete, I'd read a lot about
sports psychology, and so it isan endlessly fascinating area,
and I guess I just feel thatit's.
I don't have to make myself reada book.
I want to read because I feelit's so essential to almost
making sense of life, personallyand professionally as well.
And yeah, when I wrote my bookwhich took me many years I found
in the course of that that Iread books in a much deeper way,
(03:44):
a different way.
I was thinking not just sort ofwhat are the ideas, but how has
the author presented the ideas,how have they helped us to
understand it and make itengaging?
And so you're sort of readingon two levels then as well.
So, yeah, lots of connectionthere.
Colin (03:59):
Before we dive in, there's a really interesting
point.
So when I finished themanuscript for my latest book,
which is on toxic cultures, Ideliberately didn't finalize it
until I'd found there's aparticular book that I wanted to
read called toxic leaders, andI really wanted to read that
book.
Before I finalized mymanuscript, I had this real
(04:20):
desire.
I was like I really want tounderstand the concepts in this
book and make sure that you know, know kind of what I've written
.
And so I find myself on theselittle quests sometimes, Cath,
to find these books.
And particularly when peopleshare books that they've read,
that have inspired them, Ialways go okay, well, is this
something that would benefit mein my work?
Cath (04:39):
Yeah, so what are you going to start us off with?
What's your first bookrecommendation today?
Well, I'm going to start us offwith what's your first book
recommendation today.
Colin (04:45):
Well, I'm going to start, as you mentioned, mindset in
your opening.
So that's where I'm going tostart.
Uh, Cath, uh, with a bookcalled mindset by uh carol dr.
Carol dwight, is it doctor?
I'm not sure if she is a doctorbut it's carol professor
carol's like.
So if you're listening, carol,because definitely she's
listening to this.
It's a book that I recommendall the time and there's a
there's a quote really early onwhich kind of sums up you know,
(05:09):
she gives a quote from this guy,alfred Bina, who's the inventor
of IQ and he said not allpeople who start out the
smartest end up the smartest.
Really resonated with mestraight away as someone who
crashed out of school with nextto no qualifications and she,
she talked about thisdistinction between a growth
mindset and a fixed mindset.
And what I loved about the bookand it's a quote I use all of
(05:31):
the time, always withattribution is that she says in
the book, you can always changehow substantially intelligent
you are, but it's a choice.
It's a choice.
And there's another quote I useabout being ordinary.
She says something in the bookabout.
She said the scariest thoughtwhich I really anticipated I
remember it's which I reallyentertained, was the thought of
(05:53):
being ordinary.
And there is for me.
When I read the book I didn'tjust learn about how is mindset
useful in the context ofbusiness, in the context of
leadership, but also inparenting.
When I read it the kids wererelatively young, I think I read
it about eight, nine years ago,something like 2015, 2016.
(06:17):
And the kids were a lot youngerthan they are now like 10 and
eight or something like that andit really gave me a sense of
now, like 10 and eight orsomething like that, and it
really gave me a sense of well,okay, well, how do we, how do we
think about how we praise thekids, how we educate them, and I
just think there's just so muchthat can be learned.
She makes it one last, one,last quote from it.
(06:37):
She makes the point that thatbabies know what no one she said
in the book.
No one laughs at babies andsays aren't they dumb?
Because they can't talk.
They just haven't learned ityet.
And yet, when we get older, wemake these judgments on people
who've never actually had thetime to learn some of those
skills.
So, yes, mindset is my firstchoice.
Cath (06:59):
And I think that book has been so huge it spawned a whole
industry really.
Carol Dweck was an educationalpsychologist, so it actually
started off from the point ofview of her trying to think how
do we help children to learn?
And it's not just a fixed IQ.
Actually, the environmentthey're in has an enormous
impact.
The way they think aboutlearning has an enormous impact,
(07:19):
and so it's been huge becauseher work.
Growth Mindset is talked aboutin sports worlds, it's talked
about in businesses and I oftenhear leaders and HR directors
saying we need a growth mindsethere.
Satya Nadella talked aboutCarol Dweck's principles when he
was trying to change theorganization we took over at
(07:39):
Microsoft and wanted to go froma know-it-all organization to a
learn-it-all organization.
So I mean she has reallyreached far and wide.
Now there is quite an industrythat's come off the back of it.
There's, interestingly, a bodyof research saying that the
impact isn't as great as shemakes out that others have
struggled to replicate herstudies.
(08:00):
So I mean it is just vast nowthe conversations around this.
I think there's no doubt thatwe know mindset has an impact
and we can then kind of squabbleon the percentages of that on
our performance, but I find itreally interesting the number of
people that maybe adopt, thinkthey adopt, growth mindset
thinking and then actuallythey're operating to uh well,
(08:21):
you know it.
Only really we have to hitthese markers and we have to get
these results and we have towin the race, whereas actually
the growth mindset piece isputting learning at the heart of
it.
And I remember a fairly recentinterview with her when they
asked what are you spending yourtime now?
You kind of doing anything.
You writing any new books,doing new research?
And said well, actually I'mgoing around the world trying to
(08:42):
explain how to apply grossmindset thinking in all the
places that think they areapplying it but actually have
misunderstood it or tried to fitit into a system that
fundamentally undermines it.
And, in a way, education isthat, well, you have to get
these grades.
And yet she's saying you know,we've got this great sort of
what's the possibility, what'sthe potential for each child?
And then, of course, you know,within two months we're ranking
(09:04):
them all, and so there's thisstruggle in education that of
course, we then see in theworkplace as well.
So she is a giant in this area.
So great, great book to kick usoff.
Yeah, what's your first one,right?
I'm also going to start withanother giant thinker in this
space.
Colin (09:21):
Before you start, it's worth me making the point.
We're in a studio in Sohotogether, so Cath brought her
books in, like obviously I can'tcarry all of mine from
Australia, but they're alldogged, they're completely
dogged, like they've been readin time.
Sorry, kat, go with your firstone.
Cath (09:36):
Yeah, exactly so it's because we're in London.
I was kind of scouring myshelves this morning, so this is
my first one here, very dogged,full of markers and things.
And this is MargaretHeffernan's second book.
A Bigger Prize why no One WinsUnless Everyone Wins.
Now I would massively recommendall of her books.
Her thinking has been huge and Ifound it really had a big
(09:59):
impact when I was writing mybook, particularly this one
because of the theme of it butalso the style of her books are
so engaging.
There's so much research,there's so many stories as well.
And her first book, which maybeshe's most famous for, I don't
know is called Willful Blindnessand I find myself thinking
about that time and time again.
I think I've mentioned it onsome of our podcasts when you
think about the leadership inthe post office or the Met
(10:21):
Police, where there is thiscomplete blindness to what's
happening culturally and yet youcan't say you didn't have the
opportunity to notice it, to acton it.
So I find that first bookresonating hugely with a lot of
the crises happening at themoment.
But I just loved A Bigger Prizebecause it was the first time I
really saw someone who'd beenthinking and pulling together
(10:43):
the research to really reframewhat winning means, the
importance of collaborationrather than competition.
She looks at this wholeexperience through the lens of
growing up, through the lens ofsport, through the lens of
business and the fact thatwinning always incurs costs, and
how we've leaned so heavily oncompetition, hoping that it will
solve our problems, motivateour children, inspire adults and
(11:05):
reinvigorate companies andinstitutions.
But we have shied away from theuncomfortable truth that our
exaggerated veneration forcompetition has left us
ill-equipped to solve theproblems it has created.
If we are to invent new ways tolive and work together, we need
high levels of trust and giveand take, elements that
competition so specifically andsubtly corrodes.
(11:27):
And so it was a huge influenceon my own book, the Long Win,
and I thought right, I need tomove this subject on, I need to
bring further perspectives, Ineed to offer something more.
And I actually got to meetMargaret on a couple of
occasions and she was reallysupportive and gave a
testimonial for the book andreally helped move my thinking
on, because I book was calledUncharted and she has a great
(11:59):
TED talk as well.
So Margaret Heffernan is athinker that you will both enjoy
and feel able to be a betterleader.
Manager colleague after reading.
Colin (12:09):
Something interesting to say about Margaret is that at
the start of the year she wrotean article for the Financial
Times about how no seniorleaders read books.
She says in her article I haveyet to meet a chief executive
who reads regularly.
Many skip.
Newspapers and magazines are astretch.
They don't have time, they sayit's inefficient.
(12:31):
At a pinch they might pick up abusiness book before a long
flight in the hope that, like acookbook, it will provide a
foolproof recipe.
And then she says but outsidethose narrow pools of interest,
a vast ocean awaits, bountifulwith simmering ideas, mental
adventure and imaginativerefreshment.
Brilliant.
Cath (12:49):
Reading is such a good way to slow down the work rhythm in
order to recover, but also toallow your brain to start
thinking, which is what we're socapable of, rather than just
being a machine that's pingingback emails.
I always found it reallyimpressive how both Bill Gates
and Barack Obama, famously, havesaid they made time to read and
(13:12):
imagine what their schedulelooks like.
I feel mine is overwhelming.
I cannot imagine what yourschedule as President of America
is like or being Bill Gates,and yet isn't that interesting
that they really prioritizedreading as a way of making sure
they were, yeah, taking time tothink about the bigger picture.
I think strategically, thinklonger term, and so I always
(13:35):
think it's a great sign when Imeet somebody.
Sometimes some of the seniorleaders that I coach are people
who are interested in reading,and that is part of how we
connect or part of why theyperhaps want to work with me and
have discussions with me, so Ialways think that's great.
I recently worked with a coffeecompany and the CEO there, who
is one of my long-wind leadersin the new version of my book,
(13:58):
he was someone who was reallyinterested in reading would make
time listen to audiobooks, gofor a walk an hour before work
and I knew at that point he wasa really thoughtful leader and
has been able to do some reallybigger picture transformation
within the company, rather thanjust sort of tinkering and an
endless to-do list.
So yeah, two female, brilliantfemale titans in this space.
(14:22):
What's your second bookrecommendation?
Colin (14:26):
My second book and I think before we recorded the
podcast, Cath and I were like oh, how many books should we share
?
It was like, oh, three each, noproblem, but we spent 15
minutes talking about two.
So this could make it become aregular segment actually where
we talk about our favorite books.
So my second one is ElevenRings by Phil Jackson.
Now, phil Jackson is now theEleven Rings relates to the
(14:46):
amount of NBA titles, so he's anNBA coach.
So he coached 11 NBA championteams.
He's a four-time NBA All-Starcoach, coach of the Year in 96,
top 10 coaches in NBA historyYou've got all of the things.
But what I like about it issomeone who works with sports
teams is the practicality of it.
And Phil Jackson is one ofthose rare leaders, particularly
(15:09):
in sport, who actually takesthe time to build culture first,
and he's quite a spiritual guyas well.
So he does all of the emotionalintelligence stuff, all of the
engagement stuff.
He does all of these things andhe's quite a spiritual guy as
well.
So he does all of the emotionalintelligence stuff, all of the
engagement stuff.
He does all of these things andso it's a highly practical book
and he's vulnerable in it too,in the sense that he talks about
what he had to sacrifice to getto where he got.
(15:31):
He was a former player himselfand he had a very particular way
of thinking and acting.
He recognized that you know thegeneration gaps, every you know
, I think he says every day thegap between generations becomes
more apparent and what he wantedto do was to create an
environment where it would pullpeople together.
Not for him, he wasn't the kindof coach who would, you know,
(15:54):
kind of work with someone likeDennis Rodman and say Dennis
Rodman was the bad boy ofbasketball.
If you, if you're unfamiliarwith him he's made mates with
Kim Jong-un.
You know people like that.
He you know.
Not for him to sort of say Idon't understand this generation
.
He took the time to reallylearn, really understand.
He recognized that.
You know him, being transparent, him being vulnerable, was key.
(16:20):
The players won't stand for acoach who aren't honest and
straightforward.
He could have the difficultconversations but crucially, he
put the emphasis on the team tocreate the culture that they
needed to be successful.
Of course he was part of theteam, but he recognized that if
the team don't create thatculture, then they'll never feel
that sense of belonging,they'll never drive each other
towards success.
The emphasis would always be onhim, as a coach, to generate
(16:44):
motivation, but it would beextrinsic, not intrinsic, and so
for me, it was one of thosebooks that I read that I was
like here's a coach who reallyunderstands the concept of high
performance.
High performance is the playersworking together to set the
culture of the team from whichthey can drive each other to
(17:07):
success, and throughout all ofthat there was reflection.
At the end of every season orin preseason, he would give
everybody a different book toread, and so he would think
about the player and what theyneeded at that time, and it was
different books for differentplayers, and for me, that's the
(17:27):
real demonstration of leadership.
I've connected one-to-one withthat human being.
Here's something that I feelthat would really help them and
generate that connection.
So, yes, 11 Rings by PhilJackson.
Cath (17:38):
Brilliant and it's very practical because he's showing
the application of theseprinciples, isn't he?
And he's probably one of theearly coaches that started to
move away from the sort of machodirective you know, bossing it
around kind of style, isn't he?
And that's even more impressivein a way that he was starting
to navigate this before it hadany sort of following in a way.
(18:00):
And I think now we will pointto many of the Premier League
managers and to people likeGareth Southgate in the England
football team who are leaderswho are kind of in this style
Serena Wiegmann as well of beingmore compassionate, of
understanding, of creatingtogetherness, of valuing culture
Still probably not the majorityof sports coaches, but he was
(18:21):
really doing this before.
He can't have been lookingaround seeing many others doing
this.
Colin (18:26):
No, he wasn't.
And he talked about therelationship that he had with
the ownership.
The ownership wanted instantgratification and he was like
you have to trust me, you haveto trust the process and I'm
still surprised I was with themajor sporting body last week
Just how many people still havenever read or understand people
like Phil Jackson and they'veseen or they've looked in same
(18:48):
with Alex Ferguson.
You know, I read Sir AlexFerguson's autobiography and he
talked about the relationship hehad with the hierarchy in the
club, how he had their trust,but also then how he worked with
the players to set the cultureof Manchester United and partly
if you, if you follow sports,manchester United aren't great
at the minute and part of theproblem is they have no culture
and because it kind of left withSir Alex Ferguson.
So Eleven Rings continues to bea blueprint for modern day
(19:12):
leadership and it's relevantwhether you work in sports or
not.
Cath (19:15):
Yeah, great book.
Oh, you raised quite a fewissues there with that whole man
United thing and Ferguson.
I mean, when I was watchingthat Beckham documentary I was
not really liking a lot of whatI was seeing from Ferguson Very
controlling, very dominating,anyway I think we should
probably come back to that.
Colin (19:30):
We should do a football episode.
It was probably suitable forits time.
Not so much now.
What's your second one?
Cath (19:35):
Okay, there we go, geek, I am bringing them off my
bookshelf today.
It actually follows really wellon from the Phil Jackson one.
I mean how attuned it's.
Owen Eastwood's book Belongingthe Ancient Code of Togetherness
, which is just a reallybeautiful read.
He goes back to the principlesof Maori culture to think about
the most fundamental needs thatwe have to connect and feel that
(20:01):
we are connected to somethinggreater than ourselves and to
connect to each other, and thatis the basis of his work with
teams that's ranged from theEngland football team, the South
African cricket team, newZealand teams.
He also works in business andhas worked with groups, law
firms, I think.
Actually, recently he was alsoback in the world of sport no
(20:25):
ballet school, I think it was sovery sought after and he has a
very powerful way of drawing onsomething that is probably been
absent in certainly mostcorporate cultures, but it's
just part of who we are.
I love he particularlyemphasizes this concept of waka
papa.
Colin (20:45):
Waka papa.
Oh, is that how you pronounceit?
Oh?
Cath (20:48):
yeah, there we go.
Thank you for your Antipodeansupport there.
And and this is the sort ofstarting point in his work he
sort of says how it unlocks oursense of identity.
If we inherit a legacy, weextract meaning from it.
We shape our story with Ourdeeds will be expression of the
identity we build, and this iswhat he enables teams to do is
(21:09):
to create their own story and inthe case of Gareth Southgate's
England, it was aboutunderstanding the story today as
one of failure, of blame, ofnot being together, of being
pushed around by public opinionand the media, and it was sort
of really reshaping what was thestory that they wanted to
create in order to plot chartsand plot a different path.
(21:33):
And very powerful the work thathe did.
So it's a beautiful book, bothpersonally and professionally to
read.
I think a lot of our booksaround culture actually have
that impact on both our personallives as you were describing
there with parenting and CarolDweck's book and our
professional lives, and there'ssomething very human about
really engaging with this sortof work and I wish there was a
(21:54):
bigger space for this to be partof education really growing up,
because it's fundamental towhatever work you do.
Whatever space you go into,you're going to have to work
with others and help us thinkabout the impact we want to have
, who we are coming into thosespaces.
So, yeah, I hugely recommendthat.
I had the privilege ofinterviewing him for an article
last year and I just could talkto him forever.
(22:15):
It's so simple and yet so deepin the way that he believes and
has an impact on others throughhis work and, interestingly, he
also would say I'm not a trainedcoach.
He's done no coaching badges.
He actually started off life asa lawyer and there's something
again very kind of natural.
He says I only do stuff thatworks and I'm learning all the
(22:35):
time from the teams I'm workingwith so very much, not just
coming and slapping a frameworkdown, but bringing these
principles to life with theteams that he works for.
So bringing these principles tolife with the teams that he
works for.
Colin (22:47):
So are we going to share one more recommendation?
Yeah, one more, just veryquickly, on Owen Eastwood.
I lived and worked in NewZealand for six years.
I became familiar with his workwhen I was there and a very
strong tribal Maori culture.
There's so much you can learnjust by reading about other
cultures, and that's theanthropological stuff that Cath
touched on, particularly the,which is about the process of
(23:09):
building relationships,connecting with others and
establishing a sense ofbelonging.
So, yes, excellent book.
So one more, one more.
Uh, so I mean one more.
I mean I know you could do ahundred more, I feel so, so
sorry, I could just do one bookevery week.
Yeah, yeah yeah, we should dothat.
So my last one is slightlyunconventional because I'm not
(23:30):
big on military books.
Whenever I read a military bookI always think of, particularly
if they're about war.
I always think about humansuffering and all of those kinds
of things, and there's elementsof it where I'm reading about
strategy and I'm troubled bywhat's happening in the world.
But this particular one Ireally enjoyed so I want to
incorporate here.
So it's Team of Teams New Rulesof Engagement for a Complex
(23:52):
World by General StanleyMcChrystal and he talks
specifically about operations inAfghanistan.
Now what I liked about it is Iwas a bit of a corporate
maverick about it.
I was a bit of a corporatemaverick.
I think I got once described asby not conforming with some of
the cultural norms anddeveloping, and I always used to
talk about the fact that thework that we did in our team
(24:15):
specifically contributed to theoverall culture because we were
doing something different.
And McChrystal's book was thefirst book that I feel that I've
read that really articulatedclearly this team of teams, as
he calls it, subcultures, as Icall it.
The importance of that is thattoo often what we do is we have
these hierarchical top, middle,bottom right, and he talks about
(24:42):
the fact that we think that, asleaders, that's the way to get
maximum efficiency, whenactually the way to get maximum
efficiency is throughadaptability, and you know he
makes a strong claim for thatbeing the kind of core
competence is for managers to beguided by a central vision, a
(25:05):
central set of values, butactually to create something
that works for them within theircontext but also connects with
others, and this is somethingthat really got me thinking
about.
Well, okay, we've talked in thepast about how middle managers
really are the foundation forgreat cultures, because we need
middle managers to really setthe purpose of their team in
(25:28):
line with the values, but alsoto create something that has
this common sense of purpose.
So it's, rather than it being, avertical, you report to you
report to you.
It's who do I need to interactwith, in line with our values,
to make sure that we get theoutcome that we're looking for.
You know he made the point thatteams are really messy.
(25:49):
What we don't want is foreverybody to know everybody, to
know everyone's role.
We just need the right peopleto know the other right people
at that moment in time and thenwork in line with the values and
purpose to actually deliverwhat we needed.
Too often, I think,organizations get stuck in these
silos and that's where, youknow, I was guilty of it in the
past myself because I was doingas I think mine was a positive
(26:11):
silo, but I was doing one thingin one way, and actually, if we
teach managers the same way tobuild teams, you remove the
possibility of silos because youcreate this magical culture of
a team, of teams.
Cath (26:27):
So I love that book as well, and it's a really dense
book.
I remember sort of having totake some time to read it
because it's very tightly packedwith research and stories.
And I think he led the USforces in Iraq and so it hugely
resonated because I could seethis happening.
They were confronted with anenemy that was very fluid, very
(26:49):
agile, changing all the time,didn't even necessarily have one
clear leader, and the enormousjuggernaut of the US army, with
tons of layers of hierarchy, wasjust too slow.
Some information would comeinto an intelligence officer in
one place and by the time it gotto somebody on the ground who
could do something, they wereway behind the curve.
(27:11):
And that's really what got himto think differently.
I think previously they've beentrying to speed up the chain
and it still was never fastenough, and so that's why he was
thinking it has to lookdifferent.
And so he pulled out thatconcept of the messiness of
communications to enablecommunications to flow in a way
(27:32):
that isn't just going throughthe manager, the chain, up the
general, the next level, butactually that intelligence
officer needs to have some sensehimself of who might need that
information and be able to makethat link directly and that
comes, you know.
Then you see much more of anetworked approach, you see
people embedded in differentparts of the organization
because, again, there are hugesilos of, yeah, I work in
(27:54):
intelligence, I work inoperations on the front line and
, you know, again, these peoplewould never talk to each other.
That just doesn't work anymore.
If we want collaboration, we'vegot to start allowing this
cross flow, cross functionalleadership, cross, you know,
making sure we're doing work indifferent parts of the
organization sideways, not juston a, on a sort of greasy pole
(28:15):
upwards.
And so, yeah, I think it's ahuge book, it has so much in it.
Uh, so brilliant recommendation.
All right, Cath, and your lastrecommendation.
So my last one actually has alink to that, purely by chance.
It's called Winning, notFighting, and it is written by
John Vincent, who is theco-founder and chief executive
(28:37):
of Leon, the restaurant chain,and he's written it with Sifu
Julian Hitch and the subtitle iswhy you Need to Rethink Success
and how you Achieve it with theAncient Art of Wing Tsun.
So essentially, he wants us tomove away from the traditional
war metaphors for running thebusiness and showing how the
(28:59):
language of war and conflictactually doesn't help how we
conduct business, the culture wehave, our stress levels and
ultimately our ability tosucceed.
So he says you know, for toolong war has cast a shadow on
how we think about business,with negative implications for
us, the companies we work in andon the planet.
And so he draws on thephilosophy of Wing Tsun, an
(29:21):
ancient Chinese martial artfounded on the idea that
fighting is fundamentally bad.
And so they challenge some ofthe deepest held assumptions
that we have, help us to unlearnideas and behaviors that are
actually preventing our personaland professional growth.
And I love the emphasis thatcomes in there on mastery.
So the martial arts are allkind of underpinned by this.
(29:45):
You know, in a way a reallycore concept in Eastern culture
of mastery we never finishlearning.
We've never become the endproduct.
We've never become.
You know, I finished learning.
You know martial arts, you know, just as we never finished
learning in our lives andactually that sort of more
infinite thinking I sometimescall it about some cynics
infinite mindset concept is muchmore helpful into getting this
(30:07):
constant improvement as at theheart of success.
Successes around learning,growing, supporting others to do
that, and there's a humilitythat comes with that.
Nobody has all the answers,whatever our role, whether we're
chief executive or not, but wecan always be open to learning,
and so it's a really interestingrethink that, again's very
(30:28):
practical.
So he takes lots of practicalbusiness situations and then
applies these principles fromthe martial art of Wing Tsun
into them.
So yeah, lovely kind ofbusiness example of rethinking
culture.
Colin (30:45):
Fabulous.
I haven't read that one, so Iadded that to my massive list of
books to read.
Oh thanks, the infinite, theinfinite list of books to read.
Cath (30:50):
Oh thanks, Scott the infinite, the infinite pile of
books to read.
Colin (30:53):
I'll revert to type as a scouser and just steal it from
you on your way out.
Cath (30:57):
Yeah, feel free.
Colin (30:58):
So I think our central lesson here is to go back to
Carol Dweck's quote right at thestart is you can always improve
how intelligent you are, andbooks are a great way to do that
.
Whether you prefer a physicalcopy I still prefer a physical
book or you prefer a Kindle,give it a go.
Just find one that you thinkyou can enjoy, make some notes
(31:19):
and then, yeah, move on to thenext.
And if you do find somethingyou enjoy, please feel free to
share it with us.
We'd love to hear your booksuggestions.
Cath (31:25):
You never know, we may not have read it yeah, send in your
recommendations, for sure, thatwould be brilliant.
Yeah, great conversation,fantastic Thanks, matt.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out.
Colin (31:38):
Culture Podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested.
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Cath (00:33):
Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast.
It's something a littledifferent.
This week, we are going to talkabout our favourite books that
have influenced our thinkingabout culture.
Both Colin and I are reallykeen readers and we're often
discussing books and sendingeach other messages about
various books, and it's a reallykey part of our work lives, our
(00:54):
lives as writers as well, andso we thought, with summer
holidays coming up, that we'dshare a few of our
recommendations, which mightinspire you to read one of these
or to go and find another onethat you'd like to read to
continue your thinking aboutculture.
So, before we dive into thebooks, tell us a bit first of
all, colin, about the role ofreading and books in your life.
Colin (01:14):
Well, I've always been a reader.
I always think these thingsstart with your parents.
Mom and dad were readers.
They used to read me books askids, something that we did with
our kids to try and ignite thatcuriosity around reading.
But but, working for myself, Irealized that as a manager I had
a set way of building teams,building cultures, and it really
worked.
But when I, when I startedworking myself, I realized that
(01:35):
actually for me to be able topromote what I do and to help
others, then there has to besome science behind it.
I have to read what otherpeople have written.
I think if you want to write abook, you have have to read
books to really.
You know, sometimes you'llagree with things, sometimes you
won't agree with things andusually that sparks an idea that
then you can write about.
And often the blogs that Iwrite is based on something that
(01:56):
I've read and I go I reallyagree with that or I really
disagree with that.
So for me, books play a bigpart in my life and, you know,
at the end of all of my books Ialways credit, I always list all
of the books that I've read,because I think, you know, I
have to credit these people with.
You know the ideas that they'vegenerated.
How about you, Cath?
Cath (02:17):
Yes, so huge connection as well.
Lifelong really Grew up in ahouse with lots of books and I
am a definite book addict.
I should probably go to groupwhere we discuss book addiction,
because I buy far too many, andso they're literally piling up
around my house, my workplace,my bed, everything, I think.
Also, when I came into workingin this area, a good sort of 10
(02:39):
years ago now, I've keptthinking I don't know if I'm
qualified enough for this, and Ithink just the breadth of the
area that it coversunderstanding human behavior,
psychology, anthropology,neuroscience there's such a
breadth that you constantly wantto be understanding other
influences to help us do work.
(03:00):
That is quite holistic.
You're working at lots ofdifferent levels.
You might be thinking aboutmindsets and beliefs in a
workplace, or you might bethinking about behaviors or
relationships, and so then youfind yourself going off into a
corner of.
I need to understand more aboutrelationship theory.
That comes from parenting even,and family therapy is where
that thinking started.
And then, of course, actuallywhen I was an athlete, I'd read
(03:21):
a lot about sports psychology.
Else, actually, when I was anathlete, I'd read a lot about
sports psychology, and so it isan endlessly fascinating area,
and I guess I just feel thatit's.
I don't have to make myself reada book.
I want to read because I feelit's so essential to almost
making sense of life, personallyand professionally as well.
And yeah, when I wrote my bookwhich took me many years I found
in the course of that that Iread books in a much deeper way,
(03:44):
a different way.
I was thinking not just sort ofwhat are the ideas, but how has
the author presented the ideas,how have they helped us to
understand it and make itengaging?
And so you're sort of readingon two levels then as well.
So, yeah, lots of connectionthere.
Colin (03:59):
Before we dive in, there's a really interesting
point.
So when I finished themanuscript for my latest book,
which is on toxic cultures, Ideliberately didn't finalize it
until I'd found there's aparticular book that I wanted to
read called toxic leaders, andI really wanted to read that
book.
Before I finalized mymanuscript, I had this real
(04:20):
desire.
I was like I really want tounderstand the concepts in this
book and make sure that you know, know kind of what I've written
.
And so I find myself on theselittle quests sometimes, Cath,
to find these books.
And particularly when peopleshare books that they've read,
that have inspired them, Ialways go okay, well, is this
something that would benefit mein my work?
Cath (04:39):
Yeah, so what are you going to start us off with?
What's your first bookrecommendation today?
Well, I'm going to start us offwith what's your first book
recommendation today.
Colin (04:45):
Well, I'm going to start, as you mentioned, mindset in
your opening.
So that's where I'm going tostart.
Uh, Cath, uh, with a bookcalled mindset by uh carol dr.
Carol dwight, is it doctor?
I'm not sure if she is a doctorbut it's carol professor
carol's like.
So if you're listening, carol,because definitely she's
listening to this.
It's a book that I recommendall the time and there's a
there's a quote really early onwhich kind of sums up you know,
(05:09):
she gives a quote from this guy,alfred Bina, who's the inventor
of IQ and he said not allpeople who start out the
smartest end up the smartest.
Really resonated with mestraight away as someone who
crashed out of school with nextto no qualifications and she,
she talked about thisdistinction between a growth
mindset and a fixed mindset.
And what I loved about the bookand it's a quote I use all of
(05:31):
the time, always withattribution is that she says in
the book, you can always changehow substantially intelligent
you are, but it's a choice.
It's a choice.
And there's another quote I useabout being ordinary.
She says something in the bookabout.
She said the scariest thoughtwhich I really anticipated I
remember it's which I reallyentertained, was the thought of
(05:53):
being ordinary.
And there is for me.
When I read the book I didn'tjust learn about how is mindset
useful in the context ofbusiness, in the context of
leadership, but also inparenting.
When I read it the kids wererelatively young, I think I read
it about eight, nine years ago,something like 2015, 2016.
(06:17):
And the kids were a lot youngerthan they are now like 10 and
eight or something like that andit really gave me a sense of
now, like 10 and eight orsomething like that, and it
really gave me a sense of well,okay, well, how do we, how do we
think about how we praise thekids, how we educate them, and I
just think there's just so muchthat can be learned.
She makes it one last, one,last quote from it.
(06:37):
She makes the point that thatbabies know what no one she said
in the book.
No one laughs at babies andsays aren't they dumb?
Because they can't talk.
They just haven't learned ityet.
And yet, when we get older, wemake these judgments on people
who've never actually had thetime to learn some of those
skills.
So, yes, mindset is my firstchoice.
Cath (06:59):
And I think that book has been so huge it spawned a whole
industry really.
Carol Dweck was an educationalpsychologist, so it actually
started off from the point ofview of her trying to think how
do we help children to learn?
And it's not just a fixed IQ.
Actually, the environmentthey're in has an enormous
impact.
The way they think aboutlearning has an enormous impact,
(07:19):
and so it's been huge becauseher work.
Growth Mindset is talked aboutin sports worlds, it's talked
about in businesses and I oftenhear leaders and HR directors
saying we need a growth mindsethere.
Satya Nadella talked aboutCarol Dweck's principles when he
was trying to change theorganization we took over at
(07:39):
Microsoft and wanted to go froma know-it-all organization to a
learn-it-all organization.
So I mean she has reallyreached far and wide.
Now there is quite an industrythat's come off the back of it.
There's, interestingly, a bodyof research saying that the
impact isn't as great as shemakes out that others have
struggled to replicate herstudies.
(08:00):
So I mean it is just vast nowthe conversations around this.
I think there's no doubt thatwe know mindset has an impact
and we can then kind of squabbleon the percentages of that on
our performance, but I find itreally interesting the number of
people that maybe adopt, thinkthey adopt, growth mindset
thinking and then actuallythey're operating to uh well,
(08:21):
you know it.
Only really we have to hitthese markers and we have to get
these results and we have towin the race, whereas actually
the growth mindset piece isputting learning at the heart of
it.
And I remember a fairly recentinterview with her when they
asked what are you spending yourtime now?
You kind of doing anything.
You writing any new books,doing new research?
And said well, actually I'mgoing around the world trying to
(08:42):
explain how to apply grossmindset thinking in all the
places that think they areapplying it but actually have
misunderstood it or tried to fitit into a system that
fundamentally undermines it.
And, in a way, education isthat, well, you have to get
these grades.
And yet she's saying you know,we've got this great sort of
what's the possibility, what'sthe potential for each child?
And then, of course, you know,within two months we're ranking
(09:04):
them all, and so there's thisstruggle in education that of
course, we then see in theworkplace as well.
So she is a giant in this area.
So great, great book to kick usoff.
Yeah, what's your first one,right?
I'm also going to start withanother giant thinker in this
space.
Colin (09:21):
Before you start, it's worth me making the point.
We're in a studio in Sohotogether, so Cath brought her
books in, like obviously I can'tcarry all of mine from
Australia, but they're alldogged, they're completely
dogged, like they've been readin time.
Sorry, kat, go with your firstone.
Cath (09:36):
Yeah, exactly so it's because we're in London.
I was kind of scouring myshelves this morning, so this is
my first one here, very dogged,full of markers and things.
And this is MargaretHeffernan's second book.
A Bigger Prize why no One WinsUnless Everyone Wins.
Now I would massively recommendall of her books.
Her thinking has been huge and Ifound it really had a big
(09:59):
impact when I was writing mybook, particularly this one
because of the theme of it butalso the style of her books are
so engaging.
There's so much research,there's so many stories as well.
And her first book, which maybeshe's most famous for, I don't
know is called Willful Blindnessand I find myself thinking
about that time and time again.
I think I've mentioned it onsome of our podcasts when you
think about the leadership inthe post office or the Met
(10:21):
Police, where there is thiscomplete blindness to what's
happening culturally and yet youcan't say you didn't have the
opportunity to notice it, to acton it.
So I find that first bookresonating hugely with a lot of
the crises happening at themoment.
But I just loved A Bigger Prizebecause it was the first time I
really saw someone who'd beenthinking and pulling together
(10:43):
the research to really reframewhat winning means, the
importance of collaborationrather than competition.
She looks at this wholeexperience through the lens of
growing up, through the lens ofsport, through the lens of
business and the fact thatwinning always incurs costs, and
how we've leaned so heavily oncompetition, hoping that it will
solve our problems, motivateour children, inspire adults and
(11:05):
reinvigorate companies andinstitutions.
But we have shied away from theuncomfortable truth that our
exaggerated veneration forcompetition has left us
ill-equipped to solve theproblems it has created.
If we are to invent new ways tolive and work together, we need
high levels of trust and giveand take, elements that
competition so specifically andsubtly corrodes.
(11:27):
And so it was a huge influenceon my own book, the Long Win,
and I thought right, I need tomove this subject on, I need to
bring further perspectives, Ineed to offer something more.
And I actually got to meetMargaret on a couple of
occasions and she was reallysupportive and gave a
testimonial for the book andreally helped move my thinking
on, because I book was calledUncharted and she has a great
(11:59):
TED talk as well.
So Margaret Heffernan is athinker that you will both enjoy
and feel able to be a betterleader.
Manager colleague after reading.
Colin (12:09):
Something interesting to say about Margaret is that at
the start of the year she wrotean article for the Financial
Times about how no seniorleaders read books.
She says in her article I haveyet to meet a chief executive
who reads regularly.
Many skip.
Newspapers and magazines are astretch.
They don't have time, they sayit's inefficient.
(12:31):
At a pinch they might pick up abusiness book before a long
flight in the hope that, like acookbook, it will provide a
foolproof recipe.
And then she says but outsidethose narrow pools of interest,
a vast ocean awaits, bountifulwith simmering ideas, mental
adventure and imaginativerefreshment.
Brilliant.
Cath (12:49):
Reading is such a good way to slow down the work rhythm in
order to recover, but also toallow your brain to start
thinking, which is what we're socapable of, rather than just
being a machine that's pingingback emails.
I always found it reallyimpressive how both Bill Gates
and Barack Obama, famously, havesaid they made time to read and
(13:12):
imagine what their schedulelooks like.
I feel mine is overwhelming.
I cannot imagine what yourschedule as President of America
is like or being Bill Gates,and yet isn't that interesting
that they really prioritizedreading as a way of making sure
they were, yeah, taking time tothink about the bigger picture.
I think strategically, thinklonger term, and so I always
(13:35):
think it's a great sign when Imeet somebody.
Sometimes some of the seniorleaders that I coach are people
who are interested in reading,and that is part of how we
connect or part of why theyperhaps want to work with me and
have discussions with me, so Ialways think that's great.
I recently worked with a coffeecompany and the CEO there, who
is one of my long-wind leadersin the new version of my book,
(13:58):
he was someone who was reallyinterested in reading would make
time listen to audiobooks, gofor a walk an hour before work
and I knew at that point he wasa really thoughtful leader and
has been able to do some reallybigger picture transformation
within the company, rather thanjust sort of tinkering and an
endless to-do list.
So yeah, two female, brilliantfemale titans in this space.
(14:22):
What's your second bookrecommendation?
Colin (14:26):
My second book and I think before we recorded the
podcast, Cath and I were like oh, how many books should we share
?
It was like, oh, three each, noproblem, but we spent 15
minutes talking about two.
So this could make it become aregular segment actually where
we talk about our favorite books.
So my second one is ElevenRings by Phil Jackson.
Now, phil Jackson is now theEleven Rings relates to the
(14:46):
amount of NBA titles, so he's anNBA coach.
So he coached 11 NBA championteams.
He's a four-time NBA All-Starcoach, coach of the Year in 96,
top 10 coaches in NBA historyYou've got all of the things.
But what I like about it issomeone who works with sports
teams is the practicality of it.
And Phil Jackson is one ofthose rare leaders, particularly
(15:09):
in sport, who actually takesthe time to build culture first,
and he's quite a spiritual guyas well.
So he does all of the emotionalintelligence stuff, all of the
engagement stuff.
He does all of these things andhe's quite a spiritual guy as
well.
So he does all of the emotionalintelligence stuff, all of the
engagement stuff.
He does all of these things andso it's a highly practical book
and he's vulnerable in it too,in the sense that he talks about
what he had to sacrifice to getto where he got.
(15:31):
He was a former player himselfand he had a very particular way
of thinking and acting.
He recognized that you know thegeneration gaps, every you know
, I think he says every day thegap between generations becomes
more apparent and what he wantedto do was to create an
environment where it would pullpeople together.
Not for him, he wasn't the kindof coach who would, you know,
(15:54):
kind of work with someone likeDennis Rodman and say Dennis
Rodman was the bad boy ofbasketball.
If you, if you're unfamiliarwith him he's made mates with
Kim Jong-un.
You know people like that.
He you know.
Not for him to sort of say Idon't understand this generation
.
He took the time to reallylearn, really understand.
He recognized that.
You know him, being transparent, him being vulnerable, was key.
(16:20):
The players won't stand for acoach who aren't honest and
straightforward.
He could have the difficultconversations but crucially, he
put the emphasis on the team tocreate the culture that they
needed to be successful.
Of course he was part of theteam, but he recognized that if
the team don't create thatculture, then they'll never feel
that sense of belonging,they'll never drive each other
towards success.
The emphasis would always be onhim, as a coach, to generate
(16:44):
motivation, but it would beextrinsic, not intrinsic, and so
for me, it was one of thosebooks that I read that I was
like here's a coach who reallyunderstands the concept of high
performance.
High performance is the playersworking together to set the
culture of the team from whichthey can drive each other to
(17:07):
success, and throughout all ofthat there was reflection.
At the end of every season orin preseason, he would give
everybody a different book toread, and so he would think
about the player and what theyneeded at that time, and it was
different books for differentplayers, and for me, that's the
(17:27):
real demonstration of leadership.
I've connected one-to-one withthat human being.
Here's something that I feelthat would really help them and
generate that connection.
So, yes, 11 Rings by PhilJackson.
Cath (17:38):
Brilliant and it's very practical because he's showing
the application of theseprinciples, isn't he?
And he's probably one of theearly coaches that started to
move away from the sort of machodirective you know, bossing it
around kind of style, isn't he?
And that's even more impressivein a way that he was starting
to navigate this before it hadany sort of following in a way.
(18:00):
And I think now we will pointto many of the Premier League
managers and to people likeGareth Southgate in the England
football team who are leaderswho are kind of in this style
Serena Wiegmann as well of beingmore compassionate, of
understanding, of creatingtogetherness, of valuing culture
Still probably not the majorityof sports coaches, but he was
(18:21):
really doing this before.
He can't have been lookingaround seeing many others doing
this.
Colin (18:26):
No, he wasn't.
And he talked about therelationship that he had with
the ownership.
The ownership wanted instantgratification and he was like
you have to trust me, you haveto trust the process and I'm
still surprised I was with themajor sporting body last week
Just how many people still havenever read or understand people
like Phil Jackson and they'veseen or they've looked in same
(18:48):
with Alex Ferguson.
You know, I read Sir AlexFerguson's autobiography and he
talked about the relationship hehad with the hierarchy in the
club, how he had their trust,but also then how he worked with
the players to set the cultureof Manchester United and partly
if you, if you follow sports,manchester United aren't great
at the minute and part of theproblem is they have no culture
and because it kind of left withSir Alex Ferguson.
So Eleven Rings continues to bea blueprint for modern day
(19:12):
leadership and it's relevantwhether you work in sports or
not.
Cath (19:15):
Yeah, great book.
Oh, you raised quite a fewissues there with that whole man
United thing and Ferguson.
I mean, when I was watchingthat Beckham documentary I was
not really liking a lot of whatI was seeing from Ferguson Very
controlling, very dominating,anyway I think we should
probably come back to that.
Colin (19:30):
We should do a football episode.
It was probably suitable forits time.
Not so much now.
What's your second one?
Cath (19:35):
Okay, there we go, geek, I am bringing them off my
bookshelf today.
It actually follows really wellon from the Phil Jackson one.
I mean how attuned it's.
Owen Eastwood's book Belongingthe Ancient Code of Togetherness
, which is just a reallybeautiful read.
He goes back to the principlesof Maori culture to think about
the most fundamental needs thatwe have to connect and feel that
(20:01):
we are connected to somethinggreater than ourselves and to
connect to each other, and thatis the basis of his work with
teams that's ranged from theEngland football team, the South
African cricket team, newZealand teams.
He also works in business andhas worked with groups, law
firms, I think.
Actually, recently he was alsoback in the world of sport no
(20:25):
ballet school, I think it was sovery sought after and he has a
very powerful way of drawing onsomething that is probably been
absent in certainly mostcorporate cultures, but it's
just part of who we are.
I love he particularlyemphasizes this concept of waka
papa.
Colin (20:45):
Waka papa.
Oh, is that how you pronounceit?
Oh?
Cath (20:48):
yeah, there we go.
Thank you for your Antipodeansupport there.
And and this is the sort ofstarting point in his work he
sort of says how it unlocks oursense of identity.
If we inherit a legacy, weextract meaning from it.
We shape our story with Ourdeeds will be expression of the
identity we build, and this iswhat he enables teams to do is
(21:09):
to create their own story and inthe case of Gareth Southgate's
England, it was aboutunderstanding the story today as
one of failure, of blame, ofnot being together, of being
pushed around by public opinionand the media, and it was sort
of really reshaping what was thestory that they wanted to
create in order to plot chartsand plot a different path.
(21:33):
And very powerful the work thathe did.
So it's a beautiful book, bothpersonally and professionally to
read.
I think a lot of our booksaround culture actually have
that impact on both our personallives as you were describing
there with parenting and CarolDweck's book and our
professional lives, and there'ssomething very human about
really engaging with this sortof work and I wish there was a
(21:54):
bigger space for this to be partof education really growing up,
because it's fundamental towhatever work you do.
Whatever space you go into,you're going to have to work
with others and help us thinkabout the impact we want to have
, who we are coming into thosespaces.
So, yeah, I hugely recommendthat.
I had the privilege ofinterviewing him for an article
last year and I just could talkto him forever.
(22:15):
It's so simple and yet so deepin the way that he believes and
has an impact on others throughhis work and, interestingly, he
also would say I'm not a trainedcoach.
He's done no coaching badges.
He actually started off life asa lawyer and there's something
again very kind of natural.
He says I only do stuff thatworks and I'm learning all the
(22:35):
time from the teams I'm workingwith so very much, not just
coming and slapping a frameworkdown, but bringing these
principles to life with theteams that he works for.
So bringing these principles tolife with the teams that he
works for.
Colin (22:47):
So are we going to share one more recommendation?
Yeah, one more, just veryquickly, on Owen Eastwood.
I lived and worked in NewZealand for six years.
I became familiar with his workwhen I was there and a very
strong tribal Maori culture.
There's so much you can learnjust by reading about other
cultures, and that's theanthropological stuff that Cath
touched on, particularly the,which is about the process of
(23:09):
building relationships,connecting with others and
establishing a sense ofbelonging.
So, yes, excellent book.
So one more, one more.
Uh, so I mean one more.
I mean I know you could do ahundred more, I feel so, so
sorry, I could just do one bookevery week.
Yeah, yeah yeah, we should dothat.
So my last one is slightlyunconventional because I'm not
(23:30):
big on military books.
Whenever I read a military bookI always think of, particularly
if they're about war.
I always think about humansuffering and all of those kinds
of things, and there's elementsof it where I'm reading about
strategy and I'm troubled bywhat's happening in the world.
But this particular one Ireally enjoyed so I want to
incorporate here.
So it's Team of Teams New Rulesof Engagement for a Complex
(23:52):
World by General StanleyMcChrystal and he talks
specifically about operations inAfghanistan.
Now what I liked about it is Iwas a bit of a corporate
maverick about it.
I was a bit of a corporatemaverick.
I think I got once described asby not conforming with some of
the cultural norms anddeveloping, and I always used to
talk about the fact that thework that we did in our team
(24:15):
specifically contributed to theoverall culture because we were
doing something different.
And McChrystal's book was thefirst book that I feel that I've
read that really articulatedclearly this team of teams, as
he calls it, subcultures, as Icall it.
The importance of that is thattoo often what we do is we have
these hierarchical top, middle,bottom right, and he talks about
(24:42):
the fact that we think that, asleaders, that's the way to get
maximum efficiency, whenactually the way to get maximum
efficiency is throughadaptability, and you know he
makes a strong claim for thatbeing the kind of core
competence is for managers to beguided by a central vision, a
(25:05):
central set of values, butactually to create something
that works for them within theircontext but also connects with
others, and this is somethingthat really got me thinking
about.
Well, okay, we've talked in thepast about how middle managers
really are the foundation forgreat cultures, because we need
middle managers to really setthe purpose of their team in
(25:28):
line with the values, but alsoto create something that has
this common sense of purpose.
So it's, rather than it being, avertical, you report to you
report to you.
It's who do I need to interactwith, in line with our values,
to make sure that we get theoutcome that we're looking for.
You know he made the point thatteams are really messy.
(25:49):
What we don't want is foreverybody to know everybody, to
know everyone's role.
We just need the right peopleto know the other right people
at that moment in time and thenwork in line with the values and
purpose to actually deliverwhat we needed.
Too often, I think,organizations get stuck in these
silos and that's where, youknow, I was guilty of it in the
past myself because I was doingas I think mine was a positive
(26:11):
silo, but I was doing one thingin one way, and actually, if we
teach managers the same way tobuild teams, you remove the
possibility of silos because youcreate this magical culture of
a team, of teams.
Cath (26:27):
So I love that book as well, and it's a really dense
book.
I remember sort of having totake some time to read it
because it's very tightly packedwith research and stories.
And I think he led the USforces in Iraq and so it hugely
resonated because I could seethis happening.
They were confronted with anenemy that was very fluid, very
(26:49):
agile, changing all the time,didn't even necessarily have one
clear leader, and the enormousjuggernaut of the US army, with
tons of layers of hierarchy, wasjust too slow.
Some information would comeinto an intelligence officer in
one place and by the time it gotto somebody on the ground who
could do something, they wereway behind the curve.
(27:11):
And that's really what got himto think differently.
I think previously they've beentrying to speed up the chain
and it still was never fastenough, and so that's why he was
thinking it has to lookdifferent.
And so he pulled out thatconcept of the messiness of
communications to enablecommunications to flow in a way
(27:32):
that isn't just going throughthe manager, the chain, up the
general, the next level, butactually that intelligence
officer needs to have some sensehimself of who might need that
information and be able to makethat link directly and that
comes, you know.
Then you see much more of anetworked approach, you see
people embedded in differentparts of the organization
because, again, there are hugesilos of, yeah, I work in
(27:54):
intelligence, I work inoperations on the front line and
, you know, again, these peoplewould never talk to each other.
That just doesn't work anymore.
If we want collaboration, we'vegot to start allowing this
cross flow, cross functionalleadership, cross, you know,
making sure we're doing work indifferent parts of the
organization sideways, not juston a, on a sort of greasy pole
(28:15):
upwards.
And so, yeah, I think it's ahuge book, it has so much in it.
Uh, so brilliant recommendation.
All right, Cath, and your lastrecommendation.
So my last one actually has alink to that, purely by chance.
It's called Winning, notFighting, and it is written by
John Vincent, who is theco-founder and chief executive
(28:37):
of Leon, the restaurant chain,and he's written it with Sifu
Julian Hitch and the subtitle iswhy you Need to Rethink Success
and how you Achieve it with theAncient Art of Wing Tsun.
So essentially, he wants us tomove away from the traditional
war metaphors for running thebusiness and showing how the
(28:59):
language of war and conflictactually doesn't help how we
conduct business, the culture wehave, our stress levels and
ultimately our ability tosucceed.
So he says you know, for toolong war has cast a shadow on
how we think about business,with negative implications for
us, the companies we work in andon the planet.
And so he draws on thephilosophy of Wing Tsun, an
(29:21):
ancient Chinese martial artfounded on the idea that
fighting is fundamentally bad.
And so they challenge some ofthe deepest held assumptions
that we have, help us to unlearnideas and behaviors that are
actually preventing our personaland professional growth.
And I love the emphasis thatcomes in there on mastery.
So the martial arts are allkind of underpinned by this.
(29:45):
You know, in a way a reallycore concept in Eastern culture
of mastery we never finishlearning.
We've never become the endproduct.
We've never become.
You know, I finished learning.
You know martial arts, you know, just as we never finished
learning in our lives andactually that sort of more
infinite thinking I sometimescall it about some cynics
infinite mindset concept is muchmore helpful into getting this
(30:07):
constant improvement as at theheart of success.
Successes around learning,growing, supporting others to do
that, and there's a humilitythat comes with that.
Nobody has all the answers,whatever our role, whether we're
chief executive or not, but wecan always be open to learning,
and so it's a really interestingrethink that, again's very
(30:28):
practical.
So he takes lots of practicalbusiness situations and then
applies these principles fromthe martial art of Wing Tsun
into them.
So yeah, lovely kind ofbusiness example of rethinking
culture.
Colin (30:45):
Fabulous.
I haven't read that one, so Iadded that to my massive list of
books to read.
Oh thanks, the infinite, theinfinite list of books to read.
Cath (30:50):
Oh thanks, Scott the infinite, the infinite pile of
books to read.
Colin (30:53):
I'll revert to type as a scouser and just steal it from
you on your way out.
Cath (30:57):
Yeah, feel free.
Colin (30:58):
So I think our central lesson here is to go back to
Carol Dweck's quote right at thestart is you can always improve
how intelligent you are, andbooks are a great way to do that
.
Whether you prefer a physicalcopy I still prefer a physical
book or you prefer a Kindle,give it a go.
Just find one that you thinkyou can enjoy, make some notes
(31:19):
and then, yeah, move on to thenext.
And if you do find somethingyou enjoy, please feel free to
share it with us.
We'd love to hear your booksuggestions.
Cath (31:25):
You never know, we may not have read it yeah, send in your
recommendations, for sure, thatwould be brilliant.
Yeah, great conversation,fantastic Thanks, matt.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out.
Colin (31:38):
Culture Podcast.
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