June 20, 2024 • 26 mins
One of the things we love about our work is that we constantly read about and research the work of some fantastic leaders in the world of culture and take the time to understand the things that make them tick.
On this week’s episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast we are sharing culture leaders that we admire.
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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.
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Episode Transcript
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Colin (00:02):
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Hello everybody, welcome toanother episode of the Inside
Out Culture Podcast, and todaysomething slightly different.
Because one of the questions weget asked is well, who are the
people who have inspired you,who are the business leaders out
in the world that we shouldfollow or we should read up on?
(00:51):
So Cath and I are going to kindof pinpoint two leaders each
who we admire, particularly inworkplace culture.
Cath right yeah, exactly.
Cath (01:01):
So I think it was a really useful reflection that we'd
been citing, yeah, the terribleleadership across the Met Police
, the post office, the musicindustry, I mean.
There are so many examples, andwhat those give us is an
opportunity to look at what'sgone wrong.
But, quite rightly, we shouldbe thinking about you know who
are the people who are doingthis well, so we can get a
(01:21):
clearer picture of what goodlooks like.
And I think actually it's atrap sometimes inside
organizations we try and stopthe bad stuff.
We don't have a real vision ofwhat we want to move towards.
So we thought we'd share acouple of the leaders one male,
one female who are people thatwe have learned lots from and
think are kind of useful rolemodels.
So who's your first?
Colin (01:44):
one going to be.
So my first one, Cath, is IndraNooyi.
So Indra Nooyi, best knownprobably for her work at Pepsi,
who she joined in the mid-1990sI think.
I think she was there for like10, 12 years, something along
those lines.
She was in the Forbes World's100 Most Powerful Women for
(02:04):
seven straight years.
She was at the top of thefortune similar list from 2006
to 2010, and is frequently votedone of America's greatest
leaders, and Pepsi now is one ofthe world's largest food and
beverage companies.
But it was done on her watch,predominantly with culture in
mind.
Now, I say predominantlybecause I want to reflect the
(02:28):
reality of the corporate worldis you still have to make money
right, and I think sometimesthere's this view that you can't
make huge profits by doing itin the right way.
Now, indra Nooyi is a greatexample of someone who did it in
(02:49):
the right way.
She really emphasized theimportance of mixing business
with family.
And she talks if you've everheard her speak or read any of
her work, and I think she wrotea book with it in she talks
about how it's important to makesure that there's a mix of both
For most of us.
(03:09):
We have to work, we have toearn the money, but actually
switching off in the evening andactually spending that time
with family is really great forwho you are and your soul and
all of these kinds of things.
So she really emphasized theimportance of that.
But she wasn't afraid to maketough decisions.
She drove the business towardshealthier choices when the
easier option would just havebeen unhealthy.
(03:30):
You know that's the quick win,but you know, no, we want Pepsi
to be healthier choices, socialconscience at a time when no one
was really thinking aboutsocial conscience.
And she, you know, placed agreat emphasis on innovation,
creativity, new thinking.
And often when I'm asked in abusiness perspective, is what's
(03:52):
the one thing, even if you don'tknow we are, what's one thing
you think we should do more of?
And it's like you should makemore time to stop and think how
many times you do that.
And she really emphasized that.
There's a great quote that Iactually wrote down here,
knowing that I was going to talkabout it, and she said you've
got to make sure that thecompany does everything in a
coordinated way.
And the way we've approached itis we gave people 24 to 36
(04:15):
months to change.
And then I said if, by themiddle of the year.
People haven't made the fullchange that we need.
I'd be happy to attend theirretirement parties.
Now, she meant this because whatshe didn't want to do is to
tell people to change overnight.
So it was almost like a, youknow, like a two to three year
process to turn Pepsi around.
To turn an organization likePepsi around is like five, 10
(04:36):
year job and.
And so she said listen, we, wewant to help people, we want to
give people the time, we want tomake sure that we go about it
in a way where they feelsupported, where it's safe to do
things, it's safe to change.
But ultimately, what we're notgoing to do is allow ourselves
to be held back, and I thinkmany business leaders have this
sense of fear, particularlypeople with long tenure maybe,
(04:59):
or have always done things in aparticular way that no, well,
let's just do do.
They are and you know, and herview was no, we want to create a
completely different company.
We want to achieve profits inthe right way and we're not
prepared to tolerate brilliantjerks.
We're going to create a companythat will reject those kind of
personalities and actually placethe emphasis on good human
beings working in a coordinatedway for the good of the
(05:20):
organization.
Cath (05:21):
So yes, indra, new is my first business I haven't read
much about her, I can't imaginewhat it must be like at the top
of such a huge corporation.
You clearly have to have suchstrong guiding principles as she
does, and I think you see someof the early underpinnings of
what Netflix drew on, I think,with Reed Hastings and Patti
McCord, to start challengingsome of the traditional
(05:45):
orthodoxy of HR around.
You want somebody to stay foras long as possible.
Actually, you want the bestpeople, you want the people who
connect with your culture to bethe ones that stay and to
actually make it okay, not in afiring quickly kind of clearing
out kind of way.
But how do you get thatturnover to happen that's
dynamic and actually works inpeople's best interest, because
(06:06):
no one wants to stay away, noone wants to stay on in a job
that doesn't really work forthem, but of course you don't
want the fear factor of clearingout.
So I think that's like a realtension in the workplace that
unless you come from a guidedposition of values and
principles, it's really hardthat not not to kind of actually
become toxic.
So I think she was the ones whobecause it came from her much
(06:28):
more compassionate place thatshe believed in and giving the
time but direction.
At the same time she managed tosort of create a pathway for
that.
So, yeah, interesting, Cath,your first.
Yeah, so my first one is goingto be James Timpson, who has
always been somebody happy totalk about culture as being the
key thing that matters most inhis business.
(06:50):
So Timpson's is a shoe repairs,key cutting, I think, dry
cleaning now as well business instores all over the UK and it's
a family-owned company and hehas just always talked and led
practically from a position ofwanting a culture of kindness at
(07:13):
work, not wanting to constrainpeople.
The key metrics of businesssuccess for him are around
satisfaction of staff andknowing that your company is
giving back to society.
So he's well known foremploying ex-prisoners and
creating a pathway for them torejoin society, for them to
(07:34):
rebuild their lives, andincredible opportunities that he
has provided through that and,as part of that, started to
understand more about the prisonsystem and, of course, how poor
it is at helping rehabilitationin lots of cases.
So I mean huge social valuethat comes from what he does.
It still has to be a profitablebusiness at the same time.
(07:56):
So he says there is only onerule, which is put the money in
the till and look the part, andthen he gives huge autonomy to
those running each of thosebranches for it to you know, to
be run how you want.
You can have your charactercoming out in how you do it, how
you set up the shop.
You know, actually, some of thethings that you can stock.
(08:18):
That's then for you and, ofcourse, giving people autonomy
is hugely powerful in terms ofmotivation and that you've got a
voice in how things can.
Can you know in the, in yourworkplace, that you've also got
a sense of identity.
You know that that, again, whoyou are, can come out to through
your workplace.
Um, he's recently written a bookand they've got a series of
(08:40):
interviews that he did aroundthat, so we'll put some links to
that.
There's a brilliant longinterview that Channel 4 did
with him.
It's also on the Channel 4YouTube setting and interviews
with the Times he was talkingabout.
The book is called the HappyIndex and he calls it upside
down management and I think whatlots of our leaders are doing,
like Indra Nooyi, like, actually, the Netflix example I gave you
(09:01):
know, james Timpson, they arereversing.
You know how we used to thinkabout management, you know, over
the last few decades of topdown doing what you're told.
Senior leaders know it all, andit doesn't really work in our
working world anymore, eitherfrom an employee experience
point of view or actually from aproductivity performance point
of view either.
(09:21):
And so I think he is such agreat role model.
I always love talking sorry, Ialways love hearing him talk
because it comes from such aplace of just that authentic
sense of he believes in this,and he's not doing this to be
nice.
He's doing this because this iswhat matters to him in his life
(09:41):
.
Colin (09:41):
It's the values he has such a sense of contributing to
community that I think he's justa brilliant role model and if
you haven't, if, this is, ifyou've never heard of James
Simpson he's got a TEDx talkwhere he talks about culture of
trust and kindness, upside downmanagement, if you search for
that.
He wrote a great article forthe Guardian newspaper earlier
(10:02):
this year about, and he made thepoint that the more money we
invest in our culture ofkindness, the better the
business performs.
And again, I think there'sstill this perception that a
culture of kindness is, oh,isn't it fluffy?
It's a bit soft.
Yeah, it's a bit soft,absolutely not.
You know, it's kind to letsomeone go when they're
undermining the safety of theculture for everybody else.
(10:25):
It's kind to the people whowork in that kind of culture,
which he, you know, didn't.
You know Timpsons is aprofitable business and James
Timpsons is one of those peoplewho is trying his best to
reverse the trend.
You know he talks about burnout.
He talks about the fact thatworkers take for you know,
workers are taken for grantedpeople.
He also says that, you know,business leaders are great at
(10:47):
talking about how their peopleare the most valuable asset, but
they don't actually demonstrateit.
Cath (10:53):
And so, yeah, he's a fabulous role model and
definitely someone that youshould read more about and
follow we should be, I don'tknow kind of creating more of
our leadership programs aroundhis kind of work, that we should
be drawing on that rather thansome of the sort of existing
(11:13):
theories that exist.
Colin (11:14):
Well, I think it's something that I've talked about
, something that we've talkedabout on the podcast before Cath
, is that what James Timpsontalks about, and where he puts
his emphasis, is on making surethat managers know what to do
and that they understand how tocreate a culture of kindness.
I wrote about this a few weeksago.
It's too often what we do iscorporate organizations see
(11:37):
management as too big aninvestment.
We've got too many managers, itwould cost too much money, and
instead they select a specialfew people, who are usually the
ones that don't need any furtherdevelopment because they have
that intrinsic motivation anyway, and so I think what James
Simpson would advocate if he wason the show is hey, listen, why
don't we educate managers onhow to be great managers?
(11:59):
That way, we'll get a cultureof trust and kindness everywhere
across the business.
Rather than emphasizing, let'strain these three potential
leaders, and so I think thatthat's the lesson.
Indra Nooyi talked about it aswell is that it's one thing to
be told to be empowered and it'sanother to be empowered, and
often you can only be empoweredif you have all of the skills in
(12:23):
order to carry out theinstructions that you feel that
you're getting in a coordinatedand consistent way, because
everybody kind of interpretsthings in a different way, and
so I think more people should belooking at leaders like that
and say well, okay, well, howare they setting their business
up for success?
And what they'll find is thatthere isn't a leadership
development program for sixpeople.
The upside down management youtalked about it.
(12:44):
The management is completelydifferent, not the leadership.
Yeah, and I think that's wherethe greatest gains are.
Cath (12:50):
Yeah, fantastic, great.
Okay, your next role modelleader.
Colin (12:55):
So my next one is Richard Branson, and I know it'd be
easy to point the finger at meand go God, really you've gone
populist with Richard.
Cath (13:02):
Branson.
Bit of a Marmite choice.
You could say Totally, totally.
It is a bit of a Marmite choice.
Colin (13:05):
You could say Totally, totally.
It is a bit of a Marmite choice.
I started my own practice whenI was 46.
That was when I left my job andRichard Branson's book was one
of the first that I read andhe's someone that inspires me
and he hasn't always made thebest choices and I think in
(13:27):
selecting him I wanted to makethe point that, you know, these
people aren't perfect.
They do make the odd mistakefrom time to time, but actually
what they do is they have a highdegree of humility, a high
degree of humanity.
They're not afraid to talkabout it.
And you know, the great thingabout Branson is he started from
nothing.
He was absolutely nothing.
Thing about Branson is hestarted from nothing.
(13:49):
He was absolutely nothing.
I think he's.
He started out sellingChristmas trees and budgies.
I think budgies.
I sounded really scat.
I was like he started sellingbudgies.
He did.
And then he I think it was apaper he launched a magazine for
students.
That was the thing that got himgoing and of course then it was
.
He used the money from themagazine to start start
advertising records, and therecords was was where he really
took off.
And of course Virgin Recordsbecame huge.
(14:11):
Mike Oldfield, tubular Bells,of course, the Sex Pistols, for
anything you've read about it.
And then it was the airline.
But from a leadershipperspective, he's someone who's
slightly different, not afraidto challenge the status quo.
Go and read about why hestarted Virgin Atlantic.
He started Virgin Atlantic tochallenge the big boys, the
British Airways I think it wasPan Am at the time.
(14:33):
He really wanted to provide lowcost for people just ordinary
people to be able to flytransatlantic.
He also built a vibrant brandand a vibrant culture.
Too often organizations getstuck in this.
If we build a great brand, thatwill automatically mean that
we've got a great culture.
Too often organizations getstuck in this If we build a
great brand, that willautomatically mean that we've
got a great culture, and that'sabsolutely not true.
(14:54):
You know, I've worked with RedBull.
The drinks company have avibrant brand and a vibrant
culture.
This is a fabulous organizationto work with, and Branson was
the same with Virgin.
He was one of the first that Iread about where he openly said
create the kind of workplace andcompany culture and that will
(15:14):
attract great talent, and he wasvery open about it.
There was a great post onLinkedIn.
Oh, it must be about five orsix years ago when LinkedIn was
good, but five or six years agowhere there was someone had
fallen asleep.
In their London offices, theyhave a rest and relaxation area
and he talks about theimportance of being able to
switch off and there's a pictureof a guy asleep.
And then Richard Branson, ofcourse, is posing behind him
(15:37):
with his thumbs up, and he didthis whole post about why Virgin
will always be the kind ofcompany that encourages its
employees to stop, take sometime to rest before they crack
on with their work.
And for those of you who havelistened to our previous
episodes on burnout, I mentionedabout Toby Lutker from Shopify,
who was someone who alsoencourages that, and so Richard
(16:01):
Branson is one of those peoplethat we wanted to create the
kind of organizations thatencouraged creativity.
If you get a good idea, grab it, develop it fast.
He wrote a book called Screw it, let's Do it, and of course,
that comes with a certain amountof risk, but he's very big on
learning from failure.
He's very big on no regrets andor what can I learn?
(16:26):
You know?
And even now God knows how oldhe is now he must be into his
seventies he says I'm stilllearning and I hope I never stop
and for me definitely aleadership role model.
Cath (16:38):
Yeah, he is, I find him very likable.
And yeah, he is somebody whohas fun at work, and so he's you
know, will also say why would Istop this?
You know he has fun and yet he'salso always had time for his
family.
I remember sort of his childrentalking very powerfully about
how they met all theseincredibly sort of well-known
(17:00):
presidents and you know, and hewould never sort of shush them
into the background or say, well, I can't do this, he would
simply bring them into the roomand you know they were part of
an incredible journey.
And I think actually hisdaughter, holly Branson, is
becoming a very impressiveleader.
She leads Virgin's People,purpose and Culture initiatives
(17:21):
I think a lot of stuff.
She's co-founded this bigchange charity that supports
social entrepreneurs.
So I like a lot of what she'sdoing.
I think he's also reallycontinuing his thinking, his
ethos and, yeah, I think of himas being famous for saying look
after your colleagues and youlook after your customers, and
that was the first sort ofinversion of what had been the
orthodoxy to that until thatpoint of you know the customer's
(17:43):
always right.
You kill yourself in order toserve the customer and you know
again, I think it's thatemphasis on the human
environments you create arereally important and I love his
endless curiosity.
That is still fueling him nowand that's really quite, yeah,
quite lovely to see the joy thathe takes in taking on.
(18:04):
You know some of thesecompanies that, yeah, that need
taking on.
I think he's coming back intothe railways now potentially,
which you know is coming aroundthat cycle again.
The fact that he wants to do itin actually a railways now
potentially, which is comingaround that cycle again.
The fact that he wants to do itin actually a space that, my
goodness, it is not deliveringin the UK.
So it'll be interesting to seehow that next adventure goes.
But, yeah, unafraid to Fail andthrough that has achieved
(18:24):
incredible success.
Colin (18:26):
Okay, Cath, and who's your second leader?
Cath (18:28):
Yeah, I'm going to go into the world of sports and choose
Serena Vigman, who I think weoften look at male coaches a lot
in football, in the PremierLeague and in sport generally.
There are very, very few femalecoaches and that is a real
issue Again, sort of we've gotthe Olympics coming up this year
and people often say, oh, we'vegot equality now We've got 50
percent of athletes who arefemale and male.
(18:51):
But if you look behind thescenes, we are way, way from
that and of course, theexperience that you have as an
athlete if you're only beingcoached by men doesn't matter
whether you're a female or maleathlete.
Uh means you know you'reprobably an environment where we
haven't got necessarily thebest coaches we could have the
best environments, and so Ithink she's somebody who you can
look at uh in sport sport asbeing quite a role model for
(19:13):
creating her own path for beinga successful female, and who
comes from a really strong,centered approach, being very
human, very calm, and you knowthe players love to play for her
and she has incredibly highstandards, but it's through
really open conversations,through enabling people to be
(19:35):
themselves, to relax, to havefun along the way.
She always makes sure that,wherever they're set up in the
hotel, the England football teamand, of course, she was
previously coaching the Dutchwomen's football team, both of
whom won the Euros.
It's really important that shemakes camp a really fun place to
be is something AlessiaRousseau was saying.
Baroness Sue Campbell, who hasreally masterminded the women's
(19:59):
football evolution over the lastperiod and is going to move on
later this year.
Baroness Sue Campbell, who waspart of the masterminding the
Olympic transition to acompletely different system in
1997 and led the Youth SportTrust so just a titan of sport
has said how much she admiredSerena Wiegmann, not just for
being a technical coach that'sthe least of it but she built a
(20:21):
collective and also it's acollective not just of players
but of the whole team, so theteam around the players, and so
the experience that is createdfor those who are supporting,
you know the physio, the doctor,the psychologist and all of the
others.
You know they feel part of theteam, they feel able to
contribute.
She works with a brilliantpsychologist, kate Hayes, who
(20:44):
has previously worked in Olympicsport.
Quite a few different roles.
So they don't now just sort oftry and, you know, fix
individual athletes or anything.
They're working all the time atthis collective level about
creating that sort of sharedidentity.
There's lots of sharing stories.
They take time to do that.
There's a sense we're lookingout for each other.
I think there was a real momentin the recent World Cup where
(21:06):
Lauren James very young,credible player, you know made a
silly on the moment decisionand sort of kicked out.
Incredible player made a sillyon-the-moment decision and sort
of kicked out and she got a redcard and that was really
obviously a kind of a poormoment.
And at that point you've gotthe lens of the whole world on
you, condemning you particularly.
You've just risked your wholeteam's performance and place at
(21:26):
the World Cup.
And I remember I think we allprobably remember Beckham moment
20 years ago and he spoke aboutit in his recent documentary
where he was sent off recordedfor a silly moment of kicking
out and he was vilified.
He talks now looking back abouthow you know England hated him.
He couldn't walk in the street,the abuse he got for that and
(21:47):
there was no one sticking up forhim.
In fact the coach did theopposite.
The coach sort of blamed himafterwards as well I think it
was Glenn Hoddle.
I mean criminal that by actuallyexacerbating the emphasis on it
all being his fault, and Ithought it was so simple and
remarkable and refreshing when,of course, the media piled in
afterwards what are you going tosay to her?
What are you going to do?
What do you think about that?
(22:07):
And she just simply said Ithink you know we'll put our
arms around her.
I think she needs a hug.
She's a brilliant young playerand she needs our support.
Just very simple, very human,almost.
How could you do anything else?
Quite clearly, vilifying her,blaming her, is going to do
nothing but set her back.
This is something she needs tolearn from, as all the players
are learning all the time fromwhat they do, and so I loved
(22:30):
that moment of humanity andcompassion and just the
simplicity of like what elsewould you do?
How cruel are you that youthink we should do anything else
?
I think we need more of that inour leaders in sport, and so I
love that balance of real highperformance alongside a very
human, thriving, fun environment.
Colin (22:50):
Yeah, culture first leader.
It reflected in the fact thatthe players will openly say in
Serena, we trust how everyleader would like their
employees to say those kinds ofthings.
She, I suppose famously shetook time to learn about the
English culture when she firsttook the job.
I think sometimes, particularlyif you're from overseas,
(23:12):
especially in the sport and whenyou hire foreign coaches, don't
learn about the English culture.
They try and impose their ownculture on you.
Now that's not to say that she,you know, kind of gave up her
Dutchness.
She's very direct.
Some players have talked abouther direct style and you know
that.
You know she talks openly aboutthe fact.
Yes, I'm a direct style but Iwant to be open and honest in my
(23:32):
communication.
But yeah, she thinks, as Cathsaid, she thinks a lot about
that supporting structure thatshe has and they're all part of
that team and it's reflected inthe results.
Again, it's another greatexample and we've shared quite a
few on the podcast of peoplewho actually invest the time,
thought, effort and money tobuild a vision, build a strong
(23:54):
set of values, involve theplayers in it, really strengthen
those relationships.
Ultimately they get the results.
But it requires the peopleabove them to think differently,
and she's been trusted to dothat, and that trust has been
repaid with a fantastic set ofresults, including England
winning the euros, which is thefirst major trophy that england
(24:15):
have won for years I mean that'sabsolutely massive.
Cath (24:19):
And she came in and really , yeah, really created something
that had never happened beforebut people thought, you know,
could never happen.
That's right, uh.
So I love her humility.
Her autobiography is lovely.
Lots of sort of personal youknow talks about, yeah, things
that are that her family and hersister died recently around the
euros, and that was a hugeexperience she had to manage at
(24:41):
the same time.
And so, again, that that sortof sense of perspective I mean
she's under pressure at themoment because actually, they've
got some injuries, a few peoplehave retired and you can see
everyone now sort of starting topile in, but you know she stays
true to her approach and in thelong term, it will pay off.
I think it's been absolutelybrilliant that we were able to
(25:03):
get her and, yeah, tribute toBaroness Sue Campbell for
bringing her over, because shehas really transformed what it
looks like and something thatcould have taken probably a few
decades, because she's able tosort of set up a new way of
working, a new culture, but alsothese, these ways of working
around the people that are thenhired in to support the team
come in on a different basis.
So you know, we see some ofthat behind the scenes stuff
(25:25):
that's that's so important.
Colin (25:27):
Yeah, I think she's fab so this episode's been slightly
different.
We hope we've enjoyed it.
We, I mean.
Obviously we want to berelevant and topical and we want
to talk about some of thethings that are happening in the
world, but we accept thatthey're not always the best
stories, so we've just taken adifferent approach.
Um, these, these people areeverywhere.
Don't think that they're allhigh profile people.
There are people on the frontline who provide fantastic
(25:51):
leadership.
There are people in yourorganization right now who are
doing fabulous things.
Not all of them are authors andput on pedestals.
Inspiration is everywherearound you if you're looking for
it.
Cath (26:06):
Yeah, so it's been definitely a positive pod.
And yeah, think about yourcultural role models.
Who are they?
Who can you learn from, who doyou admire and who's going to
help you to keep contributingpositively to your workplace?
Yeah, I feel very uplifted fromthat, me too.
Colin (26:20):
Yeah, great to chat, Cath .
Thanks a lot.
Cath (26:23):
Bye.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out Culture.
Colin (26:27):
Podcast.
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Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Hello everybody, welcome toanother episode of the Inside
Out Culture Podcast, and todaysomething slightly different.
Because one of the questions weget asked is well, who are the
people who have inspired you,who are the business leaders out
in the world that we shouldfollow or we should read up on?
(00:51):
So Cath and I are going to kindof pinpoint two leaders each
who we admire, particularly inworkplace culture.
Cath right yeah, exactly.
Cath (01:01):
So I think it was a really useful reflection that we'd
been citing, yeah, the terribleleadership across the Met Police
, the post office, the musicindustry, I mean.
There are so many examples, andwhat those give us is an
opportunity to look at what'sgone wrong.
But, quite rightly, we shouldbe thinking about you know who
are the people who are doingthis well, so we can get a
(01:21):
clearer picture of what goodlooks like.
And I think actually it's atrap sometimes inside
organizations we try and stopthe bad stuff.
We don't have a real vision ofwhat we want to move towards.
So we thought we'd share acouple of the leaders one male,
one female who are people thatwe have learned lots from and
think are kind of useful rolemodels.
So who's your first?
Colin (01:44):
one going to be.
So my first one, Cath, is IndraNooyi.
So Indra Nooyi, best knownprobably for her work at Pepsi,
who she joined in the mid-1990sI think.
I think she was there for like10, 12 years, something along
those lines.
She was in the Forbes World's100 Most Powerful Women for
(02:04):
seven straight years.
She was at the top of thefortune similar list from 2006
to 2010, and is frequently votedone of America's greatest
leaders, and Pepsi now is one ofthe world's largest food and
beverage companies.
But it was done on her watch,predominantly with culture in
mind.
Now, I say predominantlybecause I want to reflect the
(02:28):
reality of the corporate worldis you still have to make money
right, and I think sometimesthere's this view that you can't
make huge profits by doing itin the right way.
Now, indra Nooyi is a greatexample of someone who did it in
(02:49):
the right way.
She really emphasized theimportance of mixing business
with family.
And she talks if you've everheard her speak or read any of
her work, and I think she wrotea book with it in she talks
about how it's important to makesure that there's a mix of both
For most of us.
(03:09):
We have to work, we have toearn the money, but actually
switching off in the evening andactually spending that time
with family is really great forwho you are and your soul and
all of these kinds of things.
So she really emphasized theimportance of that.
But she wasn't afraid to maketough decisions.
She drove the business towardshealthier choices when the
easier option would just havebeen unhealthy.
(03:30):
You know that's the quick win,but you know, no, we want Pepsi
to be healthier choices, socialconscience at a time when no one
was really thinking aboutsocial conscience.
And she, you know, placed agreat emphasis on innovation,
creativity, new thinking.
And often when I'm asked in abusiness perspective, is what's
(03:52):
the one thing, even if you don'tknow we are, what's one thing
you think we should do more of?
And it's like you should makemore time to stop and think how
many times you do that.
And she really emphasized that.
There's a great quote that Iactually wrote down here,
knowing that I was going to talkabout it, and she said you've
got to make sure that thecompany does everything in a
coordinated way.
And the way we've approached itis we gave people 24 to 36
(04:15):
months to change.
And then I said if, by themiddle of the year.
People haven't made the fullchange that we need.
I'd be happy to attend theirretirement parties.
Now, she meant this because whatshe didn't want to do is to
tell people to change overnight.
So it was almost like a, youknow, like a two to three year
process to turn Pepsi around.
To turn an organization likePepsi around is like five, 10
(04:36):
year job and.
And so she said listen, we, wewant to help people, we want to
give people the time, we want tomake sure that we go about it
in a way where they feelsupported, where it's safe to do
things, it's safe to change.
But ultimately, what we're notgoing to do is allow ourselves
to be held back, and I thinkmany business leaders have this
sense of fear, particularlypeople with long tenure maybe,
(04:59):
or have always done things in aparticular way that no, well,
let's just do do.
They are and you know, and herview was no, we want to create a
completely different company.
We want to achieve profits inthe right way and we're not
prepared to tolerate brilliantjerks.
We're going to create a companythat will reject those kind of
personalities and actually placethe emphasis on good human
beings working in a coordinatedway for the good of the
(05:20):
organization.
Cath (05:21):
So yes, indra, new is my first business I haven't read
much about her, I can't imaginewhat it must be like at the top
of such a huge corporation.
You clearly have to have suchstrong guiding principles as she
does, and I think you see someof the early underpinnings of
what Netflix drew on, I think,with Reed Hastings and Patti
McCord, to start challengingsome of the traditional
(05:45):
orthodoxy of HR around.
You want somebody to stay foras long as possible.
Actually, you want the bestpeople, you want the people who
connect with your culture to bethe ones that stay and to
actually make it okay, not in afiring quickly kind of clearing
out kind of way.
But how do you get thatturnover to happen that's
dynamic and actually works inpeople's best interest, because
(06:06):
no one wants to stay away, noone wants to stay on in a job
that doesn't really work forthem, but of course you don't
want the fear factor of clearingout.
So I think that's like a realtension in the workplace that
unless you come from a guidedposition of values and
principles, it's really hardthat not not to kind of actually
become toxic.
So I think she was the ones whobecause it came from her much
(06:28):
more compassionate place thatshe believed in and giving the
time but direction.
At the same time she managed tosort of create a pathway for
that.
So, yeah, interesting, Cath,your first.
Yeah, so my first one is goingto be James Timpson, who has
always been somebody happy totalk about culture as being the
key thing that matters most inhis business.
(06:50):
So Timpson's is a shoe repairs,key cutting, I think, dry
cleaning now as well business instores all over the UK and it's
a family-owned company and hehas just always talked and led
practically from a position ofwanting a culture of kindness at
(07:13):
work, not wanting to constrainpeople.
The key metrics of businesssuccess for him are around
satisfaction of staff andknowing that your company is
giving back to society.
So he's well known foremploying ex-prisoners and
creating a pathway for them torejoin society, for them to
(07:34):
rebuild their lives, andincredible opportunities that he
has provided through that and,as part of that, started to
understand more about the prisonsystem and, of course, how poor
it is at helping rehabilitationin lots of cases.
So I mean huge social valuethat comes from what he does.
It still has to be a profitablebusiness at the same time.
(07:56):
So he says there is only onerule, which is put the money in
the till and look the part, andthen he gives huge autonomy to
those running each of thosebranches for it to you know, to
be run how you want.
You can have your charactercoming out in how you do it, how
you set up the shop.
You know, actually, some of thethings that you can stock.
(08:18):
That's then for you and, ofcourse, giving people autonomy
is hugely powerful in terms ofmotivation and that you've got a
voice in how things can.
Can you know in the, in yourworkplace, that you've also got
a sense of identity.
You know that that, again, whoyou are, can come out to through
your workplace.
Um, he's recently written a bookand they've got a series of
(08:40):
interviews that he did aroundthat, so we'll put some links to
that.
There's a brilliant longinterview that Channel 4 did
with him.
It's also on the Channel 4YouTube setting and interviews
with the Times he was talkingabout.
The book is called the HappyIndex and he calls it upside
down management and I think whatlots of our leaders are doing,
like Indra Nooyi, like, actually, the Netflix example I gave you
(09:01):
know, james Timpson, they arereversing.
You know how we used to thinkabout management, you know, over
the last few decades of topdown doing what you're told.
Senior leaders know it all, andit doesn't really work in our
working world anymore, eitherfrom an employee experience
point of view or actually from aproductivity performance point
of view either.
(09:21):
And so I think he is such agreat role model.
I always love talking sorry, Ialways love hearing him talk
because it comes from such aplace of just that authentic
sense of he believes in this,and he's not doing this to be
nice.
He's doing this because this iswhat matters to him in his life
(09:41):
.
Colin (09:41):
It's the values he has such a sense of contributing to
community that I think he's justa brilliant role model and if
you haven't, if, this is, ifyou've never heard of James
Simpson he's got a TEDx talkwhere he talks about culture of
trust and kindness, upside downmanagement, if you search for
that.
He wrote a great article forthe Guardian newspaper earlier
(10:02):
this year about, and he made thepoint that the more money we
invest in our culture ofkindness, the better the
business performs.
And again, I think there'sstill this perception that a
culture of kindness is, oh,isn't it fluffy?
It's a bit soft.
Yeah, it's a bit soft,absolutely not.
You know, it's kind to letsomeone go when they're
undermining the safety of theculture for everybody else.
(10:25):
It's kind to the people whowork in that kind of culture,
which he, you know, didn't.
You know Timpsons is aprofitable business and James
Timpsons is one of those peoplewho is trying his best to
reverse the trend.
You know he talks about burnout.
He talks about the fact thatworkers take for you know,
workers are taken for grantedpeople.
He also says that, you know,business leaders are great at
(10:47):
talking about how their peopleare the most valuable asset, but
they don't actually demonstrateit.
Cath (10:53):
And so, yeah, he's a fabulous role model and
definitely someone that youshould read more about and
follow we should be, I don'tknow kind of creating more of
our leadership programs aroundhis kind of work, that we should
be drawing on that rather thansome of the sort of existing
(11:13):
theories that exist.
Colin (11:14):
Well, I think it's something that I've talked about
, something that we've talkedabout on the podcast before Cath
, is that what James Timpsontalks about, and where he puts
his emphasis, is on making surethat managers know what to do
and that they understand how tocreate a culture of kindness.
I wrote about this a few weeksago.
It's too often what we do iscorporate organizations see
(11:37):
management as too big aninvestment.
We've got too many managers, itwould cost too much money, and
instead they select a specialfew people, who are usually the
ones that don't need any furtherdevelopment because they have
that intrinsic motivation anyway, and so I think what James
Simpson would advocate if he wason the show is hey, listen, why
don't we educate managers onhow to be great managers?
(11:59):
That way, we'll get a cultureof trust and kindness everywhere
across the business.
Rather than emphasizing, let'strain these three potential
leaders, and so I think thatthat's the lesson.
Indra Nooyi talked about it aswell is that it's one thing to
be told to be empowered and it'sanother to be empowered, and
often you can only be empoweredif you have all of the skills in
(12:23):
order to carry out theinstructions that you feel that
you're getting in a coordinatedand consistent way, because
everybody kind of interpretsthings in a different way, and
so I think more people should belooking at leaders like that
and say well, okay, well, howare they setting their business
up for success?
And what they'll find is thatthere isn't a leadership
development program for sixpeople.
The upside down management youtalked about it.
(12:44):
The management is completelydifferent, not the leadership.
Yeah, and I think that's wherethe greatest gains are.
Cath (12:50):
Yeah, fantastic, great.
Okay, your next role modelleader.
Colin (12:55):
So my next one is Richard Branson, and I know it'd be
easy to point the finger at meand go God, really you've gone
populist with Richard.
Cath (13:02):
Branson.
Bit of a Marmite choice.
You could say Totally, totally.
It is a bit of a Marmite choice.
Colin (13:05):
You could say Totally, totally.
It is a bit of a Marmite choice.
I started my own practice whenI was 46.
That was when I left my job andRichard Branson's book was one
of the first that I read andhe's someone that inspires me
and he hasn't always made thebest choices and I think in
(13:27):
selecting him I wanted to makethe point that, you know, these
people aren't perfect.
They do make the odd mistakefrom time to time, but actually
what they do is they have a highdegree of humility, a high
degree of humanity.
They're not afraid to talkabout it.
And you know, the great thingabout Branson is he started from
nothing.
He was absolutely nothing.
Thing about Branson is hestarted from nothing.
(13:49):
He was absolutely nothing.
I think he's.
He started out sellingChristmas trees and budgies.
I think budgies.
I sounded really scat.
I was like he started sellingbudgies.
He did.
And then he I think it was apaper he launched a magazine for
students.
That was the thing that got himgoing and of course then it was
.
He used the money from themagazine to start start
advertising records, and therecords was was where he really
took off.
And of course Virgin Recordsbecame huge.
(14:11):
Mike Oldfield, tubular Bells,of course, the Sex Pistols, for
anything you've read about it.
And then it was the airline.
But from a leadershipperspective, he's someone who's
slightly different, not afraidto challenge the status quo.
Go and read about why hestarted Virgin Atlantic.
He started Virgin Atlantic tochallenge the big boys, the
British Airways I think it wasPan Am at the time.
(14:33):
He really wanted to provide lowcost for people just ordinary
people to be able to flytransatlantic.
He also built a vibrant brandand a vibrant culture.
Too often organizations getstuck in this.
If we build a great brand, thatwill automatically mean that
we've got a great culture.
Too often organizations getstuck in this If we build a
great brand, that willautomatically mean that we've
got a great culture, and that'sabsolutely not true.
(14:54):
You know, I've worked with RedBull.
The drinks company have avibrant brand and a vibrant
culture.
This is a fabulous organizationto work with, and Branson was
the same with Virgin.
He was one of the first that Iread about where he openly said
create the kind of workplace andcompany culture and that will
(15:14):
attract great talent, and he wasvery open about it.
There was a great post onLinkedIn.
Oh, it must be about five orsix years ago when LinkedIn was
good, but five or six years agowhere there was someone had
fallen asleep.
In their London offices, theyhave a rest and relaxation area
and he talks about theimportance of being able to
switch off and there's a pictureof a guy asleep.
And then Richard Branson, ofcourse, is posing behind him
(15:37):
with his thumbs up, and he didthis whole post about why Virgin
will always be the kind ofcompany that encourages its
employees to stop, take sometime to rest before they crack
on with their work.
And for those of you who havelistened to our previous
episodes on burnout, I mentionedabout Toby Lutker from Shopify,
who was someone who alsoencourages that, and so Richard
(16:01):
Branson is one of those peoplethat we wanted to create the
kind of organizations thatencouraged creativity.
If you get a good idea, grab it, develop it fast.
He wrote a book called Screw it, let's Do it, and of course,
that comes with a certain amountof risk, but he's very big on
learning from failure.
He's very big on no regrets andor what can I learn?
(16:26):
You know?
And even now God knows how oldhe is now he must be into his
seventies he says I'm stilllearning and I hope I never stop
and for me definitely aleadership role model.
Cath (16:38):
Yeah, he is, I find him very likable.
And yeah, he is somebody whohas fun at work, and so he's you
know, will also say why would Istop this?
You know he has fun and yet he'salso always had time for his
family.
I remember sort of his childrentalking very powerfully about
how they met all theseincredibly sort of well-known
(17:00):
presidents and you know, and hewould never sort of shush them
into the background or say, well, I can't do this, he would
simply bring them into the roomand you know they were part of
an incredible journey.
And I think actually hisdaughter, holly Branson, is
becoming a very impressiveleader.
She leads Virgin's People,purpose and Culture initiatives
(17:21):
I think a lot of stuff.
She's co-founded this bigchange charity that supports
social entrepreneurs.
So I like a lot of what she'sdoing.
I think he's also reallycontinuing his thinking, his
ethos and, yeah, I think of himas being famous for saying look
after your colleagues and youlook after your customers, and
that was the first sort ofinversion of what had been the
orthodoxy to that until thatpoint of you know the customer's
(17:43):
always right.
You kill yourself in order toserve the customer and you know
again, I think it's thatemphasis on the human
environments you create arereally important and I love his
endless curiosity.
That is still fueling him nowand that's really quite, yeah,
quite lovely to see the joy thathe takes in taking on.
(18:04):
You know some of thesecompanies that, yeah, that need
taking on.
I think he's coming back intothe railways now potentially,
which you know is coming aroundthat cycle again.
The fact that he wants to do itin actually a railways now
potentially, which is comingaround that cycle again.
The fact that he wants to do itin actually a space that, my
goodness, it is not deliveringin the UK.
So it'll be interesting to seehow that next adventure goes.
But, yeah, unafraid to Fail andthrough that has achieved
(18:24):
incredible success.
Colin (18:26):
Okay, Cath, and who's your second leader?
Cath (18:28):
Yeah, I'm going to go into the world of sports and choose
Serena Vigman, who I think weoften look at male coaches a lot
in football, in the PremierLeague and in sport generally.
There are very, very few femalecoaches and that is a real
issue Again, sort of we've gotthe Olympics coming up this year
and people often say, oh, we'vegot equality now We've got 50
percent of athletes who arefemale and male.
(18:51):
But if you look behind thescenes, we are way, way from
that and of course, theexperience that you have as an
athlete if you're only beingcoached by men doesn't matter
whether you're a female or maleathlete.
Uh means you know you'reprobably an environment where we
haven't got necessarily thebest coaches we could have the
best environments, and so Ithink she's somebody who you can
look at uh in sport sport asbeing quite a role model for
(19:13):
creating her own path for beinga successful female, and who
comes from a really strong,centered approach, being very
human, very calm, and you knowthe players love to play for her
and she has incredibly highstandards, but it's through
really open conversations,through enabling people to be
(19:35):
themselves, to relax, to havefun along the way.
She always makes sure that,wherever they're set up in the
hotel, the England football teamand, of course, she was
previously coaching the Dutchwomen's football team, both of
whom won the Euros.
It's really important that shemakes camp a really fun place to
be is something AlessiaRousseau was saying.
Baroness Sue Campbell, who hasreally masterminded the women's
(19:59):
football evolution over the lastperiod and is going to move on
later this year.
Baroness Sue Campbell, who waspart of the masterminding the
Olympic transition to acompletely different system in
1997 and led the Youth SportTrust so just a titan of sport
has said how much she admiredSerena Wiegmann, not just for
being a technical coach that'sthe least of it but she built a
(20:21):
collective and also it's acollective not just of players
but of the whole team, so theteam around the players, and so
the experience that is createdfor those who are supporting,
you know the physio, the doctor,the psychologist and all of the
others.
You know they feel part of theteam, they feel able to
contribute.
She works with a brilliantpsychologist, kate Hayes, who
(20:44):
has previously worked in Olympicsport.
Quite a few different roles.
So they don't now just sort oftry and, you know, fix
individual athletes or anything.
They're working all the time atthis collective level about
creating that sort of sharedidentity.
There's lots of sharing stories.
They take time to do that.
There's a sense we're lookingout for each other.
I think there was a real momentin the recent World Cup where
(21:06):
Lauren James very young,credible player, you know made a
silly on the moment decisionand sort of kicked out.
Incredible player made a sillyon-the-moment decision and sort
of kicked out and she got a redcard and that was really
obviously a kind of a poormoment.
And at that point you've gotthe lens of the whole world on
you, condemning you particularly.
You've just risked your wholeteam's performance and place at
(21:26):
the World Cup.
And I remember I think we allprobably remember Beckham moment
20 years ago and he spoke aboutit in his recent documentary
where he was sent off recordedfor a silly moment of kicking
out and he was vilified.
He talks now looking back abouthow you know England hated him.
He couldn't walk in the street,the abuse he got for that and
(21:47):
there was no one sticking up forhim.
In fact the coach did theopposite.
The coach sort of blamed himafterwards as well I think it
was Glenn Hoddle.
I mean criminal that by actuallyexacerbating the emphasis on it
all being his fault, and Ithought it was so simple and
remarkable and refreshing when,of course, the media piled in
afterwards what are you going tosay to her?
What are you going to do?
What do you think about that?
(22:07):
And she just simply said Ithink you know we'll put our
arms around her.
I think she needs a hug.
She's a brilliant young playerand she needs our support.
Just very simple, very human,almost.
How could you do anything else?
Quite clearly, vilifying her,blaming her, is going to do
nothing but set her back.
This is something she needs tolearn from, as all the players
are learning all the time fromwhat they do, and so I loved
(22:30):
that moment of humanity andcompassion and just the
simplicity of like what elsewould you do?
How cruel are you that youthink we should do anything else
?
I think we need more of that inour leaders in sport, and so I
love that balance of real highperformance alongside a very
human, thriving, fun environment.
Colin (22:50):
Yeah, culture first leader.
It reflected in the fact thatthe players will openly say in
Serena, we trust how everyleader would like their
employees to say those kinds ofthings.
She, I suppose famously shetook time to learn about the
English culture when she firsttook the job.
I think sometimes, particularlyif you're from overseas,
(23:12):
especially in the sport and whenyou hire foreign coaches, don't
learn about the English culture.
They try and impose their ownculture on you.
Now that's not to say that she,you know, kind of gave up her
Dutchness.
She's very direct.
Some players have talked abouther direct style and you know
that.
You know she talks openly aboutthe fact.
Yes, I'm a direct style but Iwant to be open and honest in my
(23:32):
communication.
But yeah, she thinks, as Cathsaid, she thinks a lot about
that supporting structure thatshe has and they're all part of
that team and it's reflected inthe results.
Again, it's another greatexample and we've shared quite a
few on the podcast of peoplewho actually invest the time,
thought, effort and money tobuild a vision, build a strong
(23:54):
set of values, involve theplayers in it, really strengthen
those relationships.
Ultimately they get the results.
But it requires the peopleabove them to think differently,
and she's been trusted to dothat, and that trust has been
repaid with a fantastic set ofresults, including England
winning the euros, which is thefirst major trophy that england
(24:15):
have won for years I mean that'sabsolutely massive.
Cath (24:19):
And she came in and really , yeah, really created something
that had never happened beforebut people thought, you know,
could never happen.
That's right, uh.
So I love her humility.
Her autobiography is lovely.
Lots of sort of personal youknow talks about, yeah, things
that are that her family and hersister died recently around the
euros, and that was a hugeexperience she had to manage at
(24:41):
the same time.
And so, again, that that sortof sense of perspective I mean
she's under pressure at themoment because actually, they've
got some injuries, a few peoplehave retired and you can see
everyone now sort of starting topile in, but you know she stays
true to her approach and in thelong term, it will pay off.
I think it's been absolutelybrilliant that we were able to
(25:03):
get her and, yeah, tribute toBaroness Sue Campbell for
bringing her over, because shehas really transformed what it
looks like and something thatcould have taken probably a few
decades, because she's able tosort of set up a new way of
working, a new culture, but alsothese, these ways of working
around the people that are thenhired in to support the team
come in on a different basis.
So you know, we see some ofthat behind the scenes stuff
(25:25):
that's that's so important.
Colin (25:27):
Yeah, I think she's fab so this episode's been slightly
different.
We hope we've enjoyed it.
We, I mean.
Obviously we want to berelevant and topical and we want
to talk about some of thethings that are happening in the
world, but we accept thatthey're not always the best
stories, so we've just taken adifferent approach.
Um, these, these people areeverywhere.
Don't think that they're allhigh profile people.
There are people on the frontline who provide fantastic
(25:51):
leadership.
There are people in yourorganization right now who are
doing fabulous things.
Not all of them are authors andput on pedestals.
Inspiration is everywherearound you if you're looking for
it.
Cath (26:06):
Yeah, so it's been definitely a positive pod.
And yeah, think about yourcultural role models.
Who are they?
Who can you learn from, who doyou admire and who's going to
help you to keep contributingpositively to your workplace?
Yeah, I feel very uplifted fromthat, me too.
Colin (26:20):
Yeah, great to chat, Cath .
Thanks a lot.
Cath (26:23):
Bye.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out Culture.
Colin (26:27):
Podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested.
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The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!