April 24, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast we talk to workplace culture consultant Jamie MacPherson about the role of flow states in culture.
Key topics covered include:
- Why clarity is important from productivity
- How giving teams agency improves intrinsic motivation
- Why learning helps to maintain momentum
- Why doing less can lead to more work getting done
Find out more about Jamie:
Jamie MacPherson
https://www.linkedin.com/company/cultureeq/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-macpherson-b48a3b/
---
Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colin (00:02):
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Hello everybody and welcome toanother episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast and, Cath,I'm delighted to say we have our
first guest.
Cath (00:41):
I know it's exciting, isn't it?
We wanted to bring someadditional voices.
We're always looking for otherperspectives on the topic of
culture and we are delighted tobe joined by Jamie McPherson,
who I have personallyfacilitated alongside and can
attest to being a brilliantfacilitator.
It's also a sports psychologist, so brings lots of different
(01:02):
perspectives.
But, Jamie, welcome and tell usa bit about your background.
Jamie (01:07):
Thank you.
Thank you very much forinviting me along.
Hello everyone.
So I'm Jamie, as Cath said,worked for about seven or eight
years with Cath in terms offacilitating cultures,
facilitating high performance.
My background is 25 yearsworking with people and
performance in bothorganisations and in sports 22
years in UK and Europe, threeyears in the US.
(01:27):
Came into the world having donea master's in sports psychology,
which, in terms of culture, canseem like a sort of a strange
circuitous route, but actually Ithink sports psychology is
looking at cultures of teams andorganizations and what
separates the highestperformance from kind of medium
or low performance, and takingthat thinking and that expertise
(01:48):
hopefully both into business,but also in elite sport as well.
So I've worked with companieslike Microsoft and Coca-Cola,
but also, when I was in the US,alongside corporate clients, I
provided sports-like support tothe Women's American Rowing
Squad leading up to the 2008Beijing Games.
So I was a Brit helping theAmericans.
And, yeah, what I'm reallyinterested in is cultures, the
(02:12):
interactions within cultures andhow that facilitates high
performance, and particularlysomething called flow, which is
a kind of performing state ofmind.
Cath (02:20):
So we're going to get to that, absolutely, we're going to
dive into all of that and Ilove the sort of multiple
perspectives, different size ofcompanies, different countries
that you bring to this andbreaking it down.
Then, yeah, your definition ofculture.
So tell us a bit more.
You started there saying it'sthe interactions.
How else do you think aboutwhat culture?
Jamie (02:42):
is, yeah, good question.
I think culture is quite a big,nebulous topic.
Often people talk about needingto change cultures.
I think people implicitlyrecognize that culture is really
important in terms of how itcontributes to kind of output,
but ultimately I would say thatculture is about the
interactions.
So what is the quality of aninteraction between two people
(03:04):
within a team, within a function, within an organization?
Whatever the qualities of thatinteraction will affect
essentially the output of thatinteraction.
And I would say that what you'relooking to do is try and
enhance three things.
Through an interaction, issomebody clearer about what
we're trying to do, both at anindividual level or as a
collective kind of team level?
To what extent, through aninteraction, am I not just
(03:27):
clearer but also more interested?
I think the sexy word isengagement, but ultimately,
through an interaction, do Ifeel like I'm more interested in
what I'm trying to do, whatwe're trying to do?
And then thirdly and I thinkit's more of a sexy kind of
phrase nowadays is that sense ofhave I learned through the
course of an interaction?
So, am I clearer?
(03:49):
Am I more informed aboutactually what I need to do, more
of which might be doing thesame thing but keep doing it or
maybe things I might need tochange because that will improve
performance, that will improveoutput.
If you get all of those threethings right through
interactions, then generally Ithink two things happen.
One, I'll enjoy my experienceof being in a work, being in a
(04:13):
team, more, and secondary,performance improves.
So for me it's interaction, Forme it's a quality of the
interaction, which could beleader to team, but it could be
kind of teammate to teammate aswell.
And then the output of that isam I clearer, Am I more
interested or fascinated withwhat we're trying to do and am I
learning?
And all of those thingstogether can improve performance
(04:35):
.
And so, jamie, those I mean 100%agree around the interactions,
and I thought it was interesting.
You mentioned the link betweensports psychology and culture,
because I've had quite a few ofthose conversations with sports
psychologists recently and italways comes back to
interactions in yourconversations with leaders and
organizations.
Is that something that you feelthat there's an understanding
(04:59):
of, or there's an acceptance ofthat actually, if we improve the
interactions between humans, itgenerates greater intrinsic
motivation which can lead toresults, or do you think it's
still misunderstood?
I think, particularly fromleaders, there's always a
tendency to be thinking aboutthe future, the goals, uh.
The next step, which isobviously keen and important and
(05:20):
so therefore, what can getoverlooked, is the now, which is
the interaction, and almost, Isuppose, sports psychology over
time kind of educates people inthe sense of, if you want a
particular result, actually theparadox is you need to get more
and more focused with theprocess, which is the stuff you
can control, I think, withleaders, they can get seduced
(05:40):
into.
We need to set visions andstrategies, which are all really
important, but they can missthat.
Actually, if I have a reallygood interaction with you in my
team or you as a kind of a peerleader, if we have a better
interaction by definitionhelping grow clarity, grow
interest, grow learning then thenext interaction will be easier
(06:01):
and then the next interactionwill be easier in the service of
wherever we're trying to get to.
I think it also, and sotherefore hopefully reigns in
that sense of actually as aleader.
Whilst there are all these bigthings that I'm accountable for,
what also is key is how I showup in the moment, and actually,
if I get those things right,then the rest is more likely to
(06:22):
fall into place.
And the second thing I thinkleaders can often feel like I'm
responsible and I'm accountablefor all these things.
I'm accountable for 200 peopleor 400 people and it's like I'm
accountable, but I have verylittle control over that, and
that can sometimes not be goodfor someone to feel like, well,
where do I control, where do Iinfluence?
But thinking about theinteractions as a way of kind of
(06:43):
resting back a bit, of actuallyday to day, I can control how I
show up, what impact I have onthe people in the teams I'm
having conversations with, andthat gives me an empowerment and
a focus which means that it'slike a ripple.
Then it becomes a bit of aripple effect.
So I think it's important toremember as a leader, that
(07:04):
actually it's the impact thatultimately makes a difference
and getting people to focusabout that.
But at the same time, you'vekind of got to have the two
things in mind what's the endstate we're trying to get to,
what's two-year strategy, what'sthree-year strategy?
But almost it's thinking aboutwhat does that mean for how I
show up as a leader in thismoment in this team meeting,
(07:27):
mean for how I show up as aleader in this moment, in this
team meeting, in this conference, where I am maybe sharing an
update or sharing a story of anew direction.
Change Does that make sense?
Cath (07:34):
Yeah, no, totally.
That's making me sort of thinka lot about conversations I have
and how I'm often trying torebalance almost the focus of
tasks and people.
But what actually you're sayingthat I think would be much
better and I'm going to steal isto think about the balance of
tasks and interactions.
So planning, giving people away they want to plan their day.
(07:54):
The electronic calendar pops upall the sort of tasks and the
meetings.
But I think if we can start tosee those as a series of
interactions and the to-do listis you know how do I have better
interactions in order to getthe task done then that maybe
helps us to kind of, you know,actually get the yeah, the
quality of those conversationsto change.
(08:14):
Often when there's a leadershipor when there's a culture change
program you mentioned this sortof at the beginning it's
something that lots oforganizations do.
They want a shift, they want togo from here to there, and yet
I don't always see it focusedaround interactions.
How does that work?
How can we help people totranslate the culture change
(08:37):
they want to see through thismeans of interactions?
What is it that people oftenmiss out, overlook, forget,
overplan, underplan?
What are those sorts ofconversations that you have with
organizations to help them getbetter at the culture change
they want.
Jamie (08:55):
Good question.
I think culture change at itsbasis is around changing a
destination point.
So actually the first piece ina culture change is what's the
change in performance, what'sthe change in destination that a
team or a function or maybe abig part of a business is trying
to achieve, which could beincreasing kind of market share
or things like that, a gettingthat clear, I think, first of
(09:18):
all.
Secondarily, I think there'ssomething around to those three
kind of steers that I suggestedearlier is being thoughtful
around.
If that's our new destinationwe're trying to get to, what
does that mean in terms of howdo we generate clarity for an
individual, for a team, for afunction within that large piece
?
So what does clarity look like?
What's their role in?
(09:39):
And this is in terms of whatthey do and what they need to
achieve.
So, in terms of communicatingthat or thinking about that,
there's something about how youshow up as a leader to go well,
how do I help somebody buildclarity, which could be about
visions and about how youstorytell and how you provide
goals.
But it could also be aboutasking questions and creating a
(09:59):
space for people to define thatfor themselves within the wider
kind of parameter.
Secondarily, I think there'ssomething for me around giving
space and time, particularly atthe beginning of a culture
change program and we'veobviously been part of them
together which is around leadersselling at one level but, at
another level, giving peoplespace to identify what's
(10:20):
interesting, what's engaging,what's exciting, what's amazing
about where we're trying to getto and I think this is cliche
yin and yang, but the yin andyang of I'll give you some
things, I'll give you somepossibilities about why this
might be interesting andfascinating, which hopefully
role models the sense that thisis an exciting future to go to
as a leader for the team, butalso that I give you space and
(10:42):
almost participate in aconversation where I'm listening
to you to go what might beinteresting or exciting about
going on that journey for you.
So, therefore, you have spaceto go.
Actually, us breaking intoAmerica is exciting for me
because I can see a possibilityof career growth where I get to
work in America or get to workin Europe, wherever that kind of
(11:04):
vision might be sending usoutset, having space again to
ask the question of people whatare we learning or what have we
learned so far?
That gives us confidence thatwe can go on this new journey.
So learning so far could beabout what allows us to be
(11:25):
successful in various contexts,and I think that the basis of
those successes carry forward,whatever the direction is.
It's telling us we do thesethings well, we'll be successful
and we'll have momentum andprogress, whichever direction
we're going in.
But having space on a regularbasis to ask that question, to
get people to self-identify Athe progress or the reasons why
(11:49):
we can be, and then to the kindof the learning and also to the
clarity what's allowing us to besuccessful and how do we bring
that into a new direction.
So I think A there's adestination point, but then the
paradox bit and the cultural bitis leaders thinking and being
thoughtful around.
Actually, how do I, in aninteraction which could be a
(12:10):
conversation, it could be a teammeeting, it could be a
conference, how do I providesufficient clarity or create
space for people to createsufficient clarity and what that
means for them, for their team?
What are the goals, what arethe metrics we might need to hit
?
Secondarily, to identify andshare and actually sell what's
exciting about that for thebusiness, for you as a leader,
(12:34):
but to give them space forpeople to identify.
Well, that would be excitingfor me or otherwise.
And then, thirdly, to spendtime getting people to reflect
on what are the reasons why wecan, what are the reasons,
what's been, for example,successes or things that we've
overcome, and what's allowed usto do that, because all of that
knowledge can be carried intowhichever direction you're going
(12:54):
.
There's quite a lot of stuffthere.
I think one of the challenges,though, to lasting culture
change, if you want to call it,or cultural evolution and you
touched on it there.
You talked about leaders beingthoughtful about creating space,
and yet many people listeningto the podcast will suffer from
time poverty.
They literally have no idea.
(13:14):
No time, and maybe this is agood segue into flow.
To what extent, then, is havingthe time to do this critically
important?
And then how do you believe andyou know, kind of this would be
a good conversation for us allto have is how do we believe
that organizations need tochange, or what do they need to
change, in order to kind of givepriority to building
(13:38):
relationships, being thoughtfulabout communication, actually
creating time to do the thingsthat provide the foundation for
change, rather than them justsaying we're implementing a new
system and with that will comethe change, which we all know
that it's not the case.
So, yeah, time poverty is thatpart of the root cause of why we
(13:59):
don't get the change that we'relooking for?
You think?
I think, yeah, time poverty is amassive thing.
I think in our work we've donetogether, I think the key thing
is getting organizations andgetting cultures to stop in a
really effective way.
So when I say stop, stop, it'sto create space to reflect in
such a way that it becomesweirdly valuable time which
(14:23):
allows us to go faster.
Because the doing, doing, timepoverty thing is that we're
repeating the same behaviors andhoping that we'll get the same
result, and stopping can feellike, well, we haven't got't got
time for that, we can't stopthat.
But actually, if you reviewwell enough and if you have
those spaces that you useproductively enough to go what's
working, what do we need tochange Then you can accelerate
(14:46):
faster as a result and almostgain back the time that's lost.
But I think that ultimately,high-performing cultures are
much better at doing the and,which is being very focused and
doing the do and reflecting insuch a way that they can then
which is stopping to such a waythat they can do their do better
(15:07):
and more effectively and withmore alarm, so that they get
into that kind of process ofactually we're not doing, doing,
doing all the time.
We are as good at stopping toimprove performance as doing to
improve performance.
If that makes sense, I meanthat.
Cath (15:20):
But that's always a bit of a tension when you've got those
pressures yeah, it's a criticallearning bit, and I think you
know, you see that in sportwhere actually that the arguably
the harshest performance arenathere's just no point
continually doing the same thingif it isn't really enabling you
to get faster or jump higher orrow backwards quicker or
(15:41):
whatever it is.
So, yeah, learning is a realtheme coming out, clarity is a
real theme coming out, and youtalked about experience a few
times as well, and we're usingthis word performance, and what
is it that helps us get into aplace of peak performance?
And I know that's somethingyou've been really interested in
, both in your studies but alsoin the space of your work with
(16:06):
companies.
Tell us a bit more about that.
Jamie (16:10):
Well, I mean, it was the reason I kind of got into sports
psychology in the first placeis, you know, I used to play
sport at school and I got of gotinto sports psychology in the
first place.
I used to play sport at schooland I got to a reasonably high
level as a cyclist back in theday, but I was always curious
about how well I performed ornot.
And I basically had anexperience when I was playing
(16:31):
cricket, believe it or not atschool.
I was in the school team and wehad a particular game which was
called off because, for somereason, the school that we're
going to be playing didn'tweren't able to show up.
So we had a practice matchwhich meant that you were
playing against your own teamand there was a fast bowler in
our team, a guy called stevecaruana, who, fast bowler I was.
I batted at number four, so Iwas reasonably okay, good,
(16:51):
competent, but he used to scareme because he was a fast bowler.
It's quite scary.
So whenever we were in practice, it would be quite scary and
things like that.
Anyway, in this particular gameand I don't know where it came
from I just had this game, thisperformance, where, instead of
being nervous and anxious andscared.
I remember thinking after awhile going, this is really easy
(17:13):
, and where am I going to hithim next?
I remember just thinking andthis was crazy.
I was like this is so differentfrom how I would normally feel,
to the point that I got to 47and then I was retired because
other people needed to have a go, but I was just left kind of
going well, where's that comefrom?
Then I went fast forward.
I did a master's and I youstudy in a master's in sports
(17:35):
psychology lots of littletheories of performance.
And this experience and a fewothers stuck in my mind as
examples of where I was justfree, I was playing at my best.
And there was an othernesscommonly known nowadays as being
in the zone.
A very wordy Hungarianpsychologist called Mihaly
(17:57):
Csikszentmihalyi had stumbledupon, or he created a framework
around experiences that peoplehad talked about in this sort of
strange terms of it was reallyweird, it didn't happen normally
, yet it was clear that I was atmy best.
Interestingly, climbers oftenwould talk about it Surgeons.
(18:18):
So it's not just a sportingdomain.
There would be you know,surgeons would talk about it as
well this sort of experience ofbeing very absorbed, so you're
completely in it.
The experience, or implicitly orexplicitly, is very challenging
, but you want to achieve thatchallenge, so it's got meaning
for you.
At the same time, you believeyou have the skills to meet the
(18:43):
challenge.
So it's high challenge, butyou've got high belief in your
skills to meet it.
But, as a result, yourabsorption draws you in.
You feel like you're operatingat your best, but you would tend
to have more of a calmness comeover you.
You're not distracted, you havea sense of control, even though
you recognize there are thingsgoing on in the experience which
you can't control.
(19:03):
And ultimately, the thing thatwas interesting is that people
loved it for itself.
They wanted the experience foritself, irrespective of what the
outcome was, although theoutcome was often and it's
positively correlated with peakpersonal performances.
So part of my work is alwaysaround well, how do you get
individuals or teams into thisflow state?
(19:25):
And the thing that carries isalmost how do cultures
facilitate that?
Because we hear a lot,understandably, about working
world and anxiety, stress, allof the things that get in the
way of wellbeing.
And yet this is an experiencewhich, if you get it right, does
the opposite.
People love being in it, theylove coming to work, they love
(19:45):
being absorbed, they'reproducing their best work and
that they love it just for theexperience.
I mean, they'll get paid andthey'll get things like that,
but it seems to be an experiencewhich A is where humans let's
go big picture are at their best, they're most satisfied,
they're at their mostintrinsically kind of best.
(20:07):
And surely organizations that'skind of that's like the keys to
the vault.
It's like if you can create acultural environment which
facilitates flow and being inthe zone, then so much is
possible.
And so a lot of my work isalmost around.
Back to the beginning piece.
How does an interaction helpsomebody get closer to being in
(20:29):
flow and boiling down those kindof characteristics?
That's where the if you havegreater clarity, generally flow
is more likely.
If you're more interested, thenmeaning has gone up.
You're more likely to have theenergy to put in the effort
towards clearer goals.
And then, thirdly, if you'relearning, then you tend to be
more stimulated, you tend to bemore interested, you tend to
(20:51):
have more understanding of howto do that, which grows your
belief in your skills, that youcan do it.
So that's the kind ofconcoction we're playing with
and it's quite interesting asyou get into, flow can be very
Eastern and esoteric, butinterestingly, in the research
which sort of emerged, one of.
Well, I'll ask, I'll ask youboth what do you imagine is the
(21:12):
most daily flow inducingactivity in daily life, like an
activity which by its verydesign is more likely to produce
flow for people?
There was an activity thatpeople do day to day having a
shower commuting.
So, funnily enough, driving acar is a very flow-inducing
activity which, if you thinkabout it, the nature of the
(21:34):
activity, is such that A whenyou're driving there's a degree
of meaning.
You don't want to crash thatpeople and often people would
talk.
We've all had that experiencein the days where we used to
commute more regularly.
(21:55):
Where we drive home on a routewe know quite well and we get to
that point where I go, I don'tremember going around that
roundabout because I'm so intothe experience.
I it's dropped below my levelof awareness.
I'm so in the moment.
So you know the work becomes.
How do you facilitate that?
Cath (22:10):
well, that's so interesting and and I mean I've
thought about it a lot in thesports environment because it is
that nirvana, you know it'swhen everything becomes easy,
it's when you have more time,even though you're exhausted.
In the middle of a race, yeah,suddenly, or you're really in.
You know you're easilysynchronous with the people in
your rowing boat and uh, andit's beautiful, and you sense
(22:34):
the boat lift up, you get thatsort of x factor.
That isn't just about effort,it's about sort of coming
together.
So I recognize that that sortof sense.
Use the word absorption.
I think about you're very inthe moment, you're very present
and you're absolutely notthinking about the result, you
are thinking about the strokeand you're also not sort of
thinking about it in an abc.
I must put my oar in.
(22:55):
You're sort of letting.
You're letting your body theblueprint that you have, you're
trusting it and you're kind ofletting it happen, but also
being alert to the environment.
You know the roughness of thewater and perhaps what else is
going on in the race.
So you know it's just thingsthat are kind of in that balance
and it's very.
(23:16):
The other thing, though, that'sa world where we were sort of
spending all our time trying toget into these peak performance
states.
It's really, really hard to getthere, and so, yeah, I'm
interested to ask you a bitabout how do we facilitate it.
I recognize it in music and insome ways I wonder if music is.
I feel music is easier, maybebecause there isn't, you know,
you're not going through lacticacid in order to sort of play
(23:39):
music or in order to enjoy music.
For me, music is something thatbrings me a state of I just
lose.
You know, I kind of am absorbedby what's going on and it
absorbs me sort of mentally,emotionally, physically by
what's going on and it absorbsme sort of mentally, emotionally
, physically, and so that's thesort of other area I think of it
in.
But yeah, how do we facilitateit?
(23:59):
You talked about clarity, thissort of sense of big moment,
what else?
Jamie (24:05):
So I mean number one, something which is meaningful,
so helping people think about,well, what does this mean for
you?
So a meaning is a big catch-all.
It can be about interest, itcould be about fascination.
All of these adjectives, Ithink, speak to a level of
interest where I'm drawn in.
I remember working years andyears ago.
(24:25):
We were doing focus groups withSafeway, the supermarket chain,
and we were up somewhere in thenorth of england and this group
were talking about what theyenjoyed working in a in a big
safeway store and it was allabout.
It was a cultural changeprogram and there was this lady
who'd been quite quiet, who'stowards the end of the focus
(24:45):
group spoke up and she talkedabout.
She worked on the, on the cashregister in the supermarket, and
this was sort of mid-2000swhere technology hadn't quite
kind of caught up.
But she talked about loving herjob because she loved seeing
how the numbers played out.
So when she was talking about,what she loved about her job was
(25:08):
seeing how the numbers wouldkind of scroll up, which took
everyone by surprise, but it waslike she could find there was a
fascination to what she wasdoing.
So asking people and gettingpeople to think about what's
interesting about that?
What's interesting about thatfor you, I think, is a kind of a
key piece, I think secondarilythen there becomes a clarity,
(25:28):
which we talked about.
But I think there's two thingshere.
Number one is asking what's thebig thing it will give and
what's the output.
But also flow is around beingclear on what I have to do in
this moment.
So the process stuff which interms of culturally often is
what's the team charter, what'sthe way that we've agreed that
we're going to work together tohave a really great meeting and
(25:50):
because that's the process,we're going to listen to people.
Clearly we're going to have aclear goal at the beginning of
the meeting.
We're going to do a review atthe end of the meeting.
We're going to be open andtherefore people can give
feedback to one another duringthe course of.
These are all the process goalswhich allow that would be a
second piece.
The bigger picture is being ableto give each other feedback,
and feedback is often like oh,things you need to change, but
(26:14):
actually feedback about what'sgone well, because another piece
of think about flow is, if youdon't have high confidence, it's
going to be harder to achieve.
So I think some of the workthat you and I have done around
evidence rules or belief rules,and getting people to think
about where we've made progressbuilds that sense of belief,
(26:34):
which builds that sense ofactually, even though it's a
challenging goal.
We've done things like thisbefore, so it means, therefore,
your mindset is much more.
We can do this and I canstretch myself and I can be less
distracted and more focused,because often what takes our
focus is doubt, thoughts that wecan't do something, thoughts
(26:54):
that we aren't going to be goodat able to do certain things.
But if you build belief, thenbelief tends to be.
I know I can.
These are the things I shouldbe doing, that kind of stuff.
So meaningfulness, clarity ofgoal, but clarity of how we'll
do it, not just what we'retrying to get to at the end.
I think there's something aboutfeedback.
I think is the piece.
(27:15):
I think there's something aboutbuilding belief, which is
partly learning and reviewingare all bits which help shift
the dial.
I think, and I think it's keyto say with focus and with flow
that it's not a black and whiteexperience.
You'll have deeper levels ofabsorption of focus and less
(27:35):
deep, and what we're trying todo culturally is, as I like to
say, shift the deck more infavor of.
I'm more absorbed, I'm clearer,I'm really fascinated.
I've got the belief and thelearning to know what to do if
various things come up andtherefore better performances
come out, and I enjoy and I'mstimulated and I love the
experience for itself so I'vejust written a whole new
(27:58):
framework based on what you justsaid, that we can obviously now
use and cope.
So I've got the a, b, c, d, e, f, g, of right of of delivery.
So a is agency, so this iseverybody kind of working
together, feeling that they havea say we're kind of all one,
we're in it.
The B is belief.
(28:18):
So then it's like gaining thatclarity and having that sense of
yes, we can do this.
Then there's commitment.
So we're all committed to this.
There's not one person on oneside of the room going I don't
believe we can do this.
Then there's discipline toactually say we're going to not
do that thing which we talkedabout earlier, but we're going
to do this thing instead.
Then there's encouragement,because we all hit roadblocks
(28:40):
every now and again.
There's that constant reminderthat we can do it.
Then there's feedback, to sortof say I like this, but here's
one thing to think about, orthis was really good, keep going
.
And that leads to goalachievement.
So there we go a, b, c, d, e.
If we had more time we couldhave done the whole alphabet,
but let's just leave it therethe a to g of flow in the
(29:01):
workplace there it is, yeah, andI think, well, I mean I would
say this because I'm biased, buta culture change can be quite
nebulous.
B, often people come to culturebecause of the dysfunction of
their current culture, be itbecause it's toxic, be it
because they can't sustain highperformance, whatever the
reasons might be.
(29:22):
And the thing I love about thisis it flips it on its head,
because if you get it righterrather than wronger, people are
more engaged, people are moreeffective.
Goals will come to you thatyou've set to achieve rather
than chasing after them, and sotherefore, in theory, it should
become wholly more enriching forindividuals, for teams, for
(29:46):
organizations.
I mean, I said it earlier, butI like to say you know, it
becomes the keys to the vault interms of what could be possible
, particularly around payingattention to our A, b, c, d, e,
f, g.
Colin (29:59):
Yeah, there we go.
Cath (30:01):
Beautiful.
That's our takeaway, I think,isn't it?
A to G, jamie, colin Cass.
A to G of, yeah, reaching flowin the workplace.
So, jamie, you're specialisingeven more in this space.
Now Tell us how can listenersfind out more about your
thinking and what you do?
Jamie (30:20):
I think the best place is LinkedIn, so we have a Culture
EQ as a LinkedIn page.
Direct Message Me reallyinterested to kind of help in
terms of how do you furtherfacilitate it.
I think one of the pieces, too,is that often with
organizations that I work with,there often are pockets where
things are working better andthey're more flow inducing and
(30:43):
the question then becomes ratherthan it being a hook line,
sinker, angling manual, completechange.
It's how do we spread some ofthe thinking, particularly in
terms of how leaders payattention to these things, which
can facilitate it acrossorganizations and therefore, you
know, have chase rather thanchase results.
(31:03):
Let results come to you and, atthe same time, increase
enjoyment and satisfaction andengagement for people within
their organizations.
Yeah, it's a fascinating kindof concept.
Great.
Well, we'll provide links toJamie, to his LinkedIn profile
and also to CultureEQ as well.
And, jamie, it's been so greathaving you on the show, and I
(31:24):
think this has been a perfectexample of flow, because when I
first looked down to see howlong we'd spent talking, it was
26 minutes.
I'm like what?
So?
Yes, so, thank you so much forbeing on the show.
Thank you so much for sharingyour wisdom, your insights, your
experience, and I don't knowabout you, Cath, but there's so
much that I've taken from this,nevermind other people listening
(31:44):
to it.
Cath (31:44):
Yeah, I've made a lot of notes.
I really enjoyed theconversation.
I always find itmind-stretching-provoking and,
uh yeah, there'll be lots ofthoughts going around my head
the rest of the day good stuff.
Thank you very much both of you.
Thanks, jamie, for joining uscheers bye thanks for listening
to today's inside out culturepodcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
(32:06):
with others who you think may beinterested.
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Hello everybody and welcome toanother episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast and, Cath,I'm delighted to say we have our
first guest.
Cath (00:41):
I know it's exciting, isn't it?
We wanted to bring someadditional voices.
We're always looking for otherperspectives on the topic of
culture and we are delighted tobe joined by Jamie McPherson,
who I have personallyfacilitated alongside and can
attest to being a brilliantfacilitator.
It's also a sports psychologist, so brings lots of different
(01:02):
perspectives.
But, Jamie, welcome and tell usa bit about your background.
Jamie (01:07):
Thank you.
Thank you very much forinviting me along.
Hello everyone.
So I'm Jamie, as Cath said,worked for about seven or eight
years with Cath in terms offacilitating cultures,
facilitating high performance.
My background is 25 yearsworking with people and
performance in bothorganisations and in sports 22
years in UK and Europe, threeyears in the US.
(01:27):
Came into the world having donea master's in sports psychology,
which, in terms of culture, canseem like a sort of a strange
circuitous route, but actually Ithink sports psychology is
looking at cultures of teams andorganizations and what
separates the highestperformance from kind of medium
or low performance, and takingthat thinking and that expertise
(01:48):
hopefully both into business,but also in elite sport as well.
So I've worked with companieslike Microsoft and Coca-Cola,
but also, when I was in the US,alongside corporate clients, I
provided sports-like support tothe Women's American Rowing
Squad leading up to the 2008Beijing Games.
So I was a Brit helping theAmericans.
And, yeah, what I'm reallyinterested in is cultures, the
(02:12):
interactions within cultures andhow that facilitates high
performance, and particularlysomething called flow, which is
a kind of performing state ofmind.
Cath (02:20):
So we're going to get to that, absolutely, we're going to
dive into all of that and Ilove the sort of multiple
perspectives, different size ofcompanies, different countries
that you bring to this andbreaking it down.
Then, yeah, your definition ofculture.
So tell us a bit more.
You started there saying it'sthe interactions.
How else do you think aboutwhat culture?
Jamie (02:42):
is, yeah, good question.
I think culture is quite a big,nebulous topic.
Often people talk about needingto change cultures.
I think people implicitlyrecognize that culture is really
important in terms of how itcontributes to kind of output,
but ultimately I would say thatculture is about the
interactions.
So what is the quality of aninteraction between two people
(03:04):
within a team, within a function, within an organization?
Whatever the qualities of thatinteraction will affect
essentially the output of thatinteraction.
And I would say that what you'relooking to do is try and
enhance three things.
Through an interaction, issomebody clearer about what
we're trying to do, both at anindividual level or as a
collective kind of team level?
To what extent, through aninteraction, am I not just
(03:27):
clearer but also more interested?
I think the sexy word isengagement, but ultimately,
through an interaction, do Ifeel like I'm more interested in
what I'm trying to do, whatwe're trying to do?
And then thirdly and I thinkit's more of a sexy kind of
phrase nowadays is that sense ofhave I learned through the
course of an interaction?
So, am I clearer?
(03:49):
Am I more informed aboutactually what I need to do, more
of which might be doing thesame thing but keep doing it or
maybe things I might need tochange because that will improve
performance, that will improveoutput.
If you get all of those threethings right through
interactions, then generally Ithink two things happen.
One, I'll enjoy my experienceof being in a work, being in a
(04:13):
team, more, and secondary,performance improves.
So for me it's interaction, Forme it's a quality of the
interaction, which could beleader to team, but it could be
kind of teammate to teammate aswell.
And then the output of that isam I clearer, Am I more
interested or fascinated withwhat we're trying to do and am I
learning?
And all of those thingstogether can improve performance
(04:35):
.
And so, jamie, those I mean 100%agree around the interactions,
and I thought it was interesting.
You mentioned the link betweensports psychology and culture,
because I've had quite a few ofthose conversations with sports
psychologists recently and italways comes back to
interactions in yourconversations with leaders and
organizations.
Is that something that you feelthat there's an understanding
(04:59):
of, or there's an acceptance ofthat actually, if we improve the
interactions between humans, itgenerates greater intrinsic
motivation which can lead toresults, or do you think it's
still misunderstood?
I think, particularly fromleaders, there's always a
tendency to be thinking aboutthe future, the goals, uh.
The next step, which isobviously keen and important and
(05:20):
so therefore, what can getoverlooked, is the now, which is
the interaction, and almost, Isuppose, sports psychology over
time kind of educates people inthe sense of, if you want a
particular result, actually theparadox is you need to get more
and more focused with theprocess, which is the stuff you
can control, I think, withleaders, they can get seduced
(05:40):
into.
We need to set visions andstrategies, which are all really
important, but they can missthat.
Actually, if I have a reallygood interaction with you in my
team or you as a kind of a peerleader, if we have a better
interaction by definitionhelping grow clarity, grow
interest, grow learning then thenext interaction will be easier
(06:01):
and then the next interactionwill be easier in the service of
wherever we're trying to get to.
I think it also, and sotherefore hopefully reigns in
that sense of actually as aleader.
Whilst there are all these bigthings that I'm accountable for,
what also is key is how I showup in the moment, and actually,
if I get those things right,then the rest is more likely to
(06:22):
fall into place.
And the second thing I thinkleaders can often feel like I'm
responsible and I'm accountablefor all these things.
I'm accountable for 200 peopleor 400 people and it's like I'm
accountable, but I have verylittle control over that, and
that can sometimes not be goodfor someone to feel like, well,
where do I control, where do Iinfluence?
But thinking about theinteractions as a way of kind of
(06:43):
resting back a bit, of actuallyday to day, I can control how I
show up, what impact I have onthe people in the teams I'm
having conversations with, andthat gives me an empowerment and
a focus which means that it'slike a ripple.
Then it becomes a bit of aripple effect.
So I think it's important toremember as a leader, that
(07:04):
actually it's the impact thatultimately makes a difference
and getting people to focusabout that.
But at the same time, you'vekind of got to have the two
things in mind what's the endstate we're trying to get to,
what's two-year strategy, what'sthree-year strategy?
But almost it's thinking aboutwhat does that mean for how I
show up as a leader in thismoment in this team meeting,
(07:27):
mean for how I show up as aleader in this moment, in this
team meeting, in this conference, where I am maybe sharing an
update or sharing a story of anew direction.
Change Does that make sense?
Cath (07:34):
Yeah, no, totally.
That's making me sort of thinka lot about conversations I have
and how I'm often trying torebalance almost the focus of
tasks and people.
But what actually you're sayingthat I think would be much
better and I'm going to steal isto think about the balance of
tasks and interactions.
So planning, giving people away they want to plan their day.
(07:54):
The electronic calendar pops upall the sort of tasks and the
meetings.
But I think if we can start tosee those as a series of
interactions and the to-do listis you know how do I have better
interactions in order to getthe task done then that maybe
helps us to kind of, you know,actually get the yeah, the
quality of those conversationsto change.
(08:14):
Often when there's a leadershipor when there's a culture change
program you mentioned this sortof at the beginning it's
something that lots oforganizations do.
They want a shift, they want togo from here to there, and yet
I don't always see it focusedaround interactions.
How does that work?
How can we help people totranslate the culture change
(08:37):
they want to see through thismeans of interactions?
What is it that people oftenmiss out, overlook, forget,
overplan, underplan?
What are those sorts ofconversations that you have with
organizations to help them getbetter at the culture change
they want.
Jamie (08:55):
Good question.
I think culture change at itsbasis is around changing a
destination point.
So actually the first piece ina culture change is what's the
change in performance, what'sthe change in destination that a
team or a function or maybe abig part of a business is trying
to achieve, which could beincreasing kind of market share
or things like that, a gettingthat clear, I think, first of
(09:18):
all.
Secondarily, I think there'ssomething around to those three
kind of steers that I suggestedearlier is being thoughtful
around.
If that's our new destinationwe're trying to get to, what
does that mean in terms of howdo we generate clarity for an
individual, for a team, for afunction within that large piece
?
So what does clarity look like?
What's their role in?
(09:39):
And this is in terms of whatthey do and what they need to
achieve.
So, in terms of communicatingthat or thinking about that,
there's something about how youshow up as a leader to go well,
how do I help somebody buildclarity, which could be about
visions and about how youstorytell and how you provide
goals.
But it could also be aboutasking questions and creating a
(09:59):
space for people to define thatfor themselves within the wider
kind of parameter.
Secondarily, I think there'ssomething for me around giving
space and time, particularly atthe beginning of a culture
change program and we'veobviously been part of them
together which is around leadersselling at one level but, at
another level, giving peoplespace to identify what's
(10:20):
interesting, what's engaging,what's exciting, what's amazing
about where we're trying to getto and I think this is cliche
yin and yang, but the yin andyang of I'll give you some
things, I'll give you somepossibilities about why this
might be interesting andfascinating, which hopefully
role models the sense that thisis an exciting future to go to
as a leader for the team, butalso that I give you space and
(10:42):
almost participate in aconversation where I'm listening
to you to go what might beinteresting or exciting about
going on that journey for you.
So, therefore, you have spaceto go.
Actually, us breaking intoAmerica is exciting for me
because I can see a possibilityof career growth where I get to
work in America or get to workin Europe, wherever that kind of
(11:04):
vision might be sending usoutset, having space again to
ask the question of people whatare we learning or what have we
learned so far?
That gives us confidence thatwe can go on this new journey.
So learning so far could beabout what allows us to be
(11:25):
successful in various contexts,and I think that the basis of
those successes carry forward,whatever the direction is.
It's telling us we do thesethings well, we'll be successful
and we'll have momentum andprogress, whichever direction
we're going in.
But having space on a regularbasis to ask that question, to
get people to self-identify Athe progress or the reasons why
(11:49):
we can be, and then to the kindof the learning and also to the
clarity what's allowing us to besuccessful and how do we bring
that into a new direction.
So I think A there's adestination point, but then the
paradox bit and the cultural bitis leaders thinking and being
thoughtful around.
Actually, how do I, in aninteraction which could be a
(12:10):
conversation, it could be a teammeeting, it could be a
conference, how do I providesufficient clarity or create
space for people to createsufficient clarity and what that
means for them, for their team?
What are the goals, what arethe metrics we might need to hit
?
Secondarily, to identify andshare and actually sell what's
exciting about that for thebusiness, for you as a leader,
(12:34):
but to give them space forpeople to identify.
Well, that would be excitingfor me or otherwise.
And then, thirdly, to spendtime getting people to reflect
on what are the reasons why wecan, what are the reasons,
what's been, for example,successes or things that we've
overcome, and what's allowed usto do that, because all of that
knowledge can be carried intowhichever direction you're going
(12:54):
.
There's quite a lot of stuffthere.
I think one of the challenges,though, to lasting culture
change, if you want to call it,or cultural evolution and you
touched on it there.
You talked about leaders beingthoughtful about creating space,
and yet many people listeningto the podcast will suffer from
time poverty.
They literally have no idea.
(13:14):
No time, and maybe this is agood segue into flow.
To what extent, then, is havingthe time to do this critically
important?
And then how do you believe andyou know, kind of this would be
a good conversation for us allto have is how do we believe
that organizations need tochange, or what do they need to
change, in order to kind of givepriority to building
(13:38):
relationships, being thoughtfulabout communication, actually
creating time to do the thingsthat provide the foundation for
change, rather than them justsaying we're implementing a new
system and with that will comethe change, which we all know
that it's not the case.
So, yeah, time poverty is thatpart of the root cause of why we
(13:59):
don't get the change that we'relooking for?
You think?
I think, yeah, time poverty is amassive thing.
I think in our work we've donetogether, I think the key thing
is getting organizations andgetting cultures to stop in a
really effective way.
So when I say stop, stop, it'sto create space to reflect in
such a way that it becomesweirdly valuable time which
(14:23):
allows us to go faster.
Because the doing, doing, timepoverty thing is that we're
repeating the same behaviors andhoping that we'll get the same
result, and stopping can feellike, well, we haven't got't got
time for that, we can't stopthat.
But actually, if you reviewwell enough and if you have
those spaces that you useproductively enough to go what's
working, what do we need tochange Then you can accelerate
(14:46):
faster as a result and almostgain back the time that's lost.
But I think that ultimately,high-performing cultures are
much better at doing the and,which is being very focused and
doing the do and reflecting insuch a way that they can then
which is stopping to such a waythat they can do their do better
(15:07):
and more effectively and withmore alarm, so that they get
into that kind of process ofactually we're not doing, doing,
doing all the time.
We are as good at stopping toimprove performance as doing to
improve performance.
If that makes sense, I meanthat.
Cath (15:20):
But that's always a bit of a tension when you've got those
pressures yeah, it's a criticallearning bit, and I think you
know, you see that in sportwhere actually that the arguably
the harshest performance arenathere's just no point
continually doing the same thingif it isn't really enabling you
to get faster or jump higher orrow backwards quicker or
(15:41):
whatever it is.
So, yeah, learning is a realtheme coming out, clarity is a
real theme coming out, and youtalked about experience a few
times as well, and we're usingthis word performance, and what
is it that helps us get into aplace of peak performance?
And I know that's somethingyou've been really interested in
, both in your studies but alsoin the space of your work with
(16:06):
companies.
Tell us a bit more about that.
Jamie (16:10):
Well, I mean, it was the reason I kind of got into sports
psychology in the first placeis, you know, I used to play
sport at school and I got of gotinto sports psychology in the
first place.
I used to play sport at schooland I got to a reasonably high
level as a cyclist back in theday, but I was always curious
about how well I performed ornot.
And I basically had anexperience when I was playing
(16:31):
cricket, believe it or not atschool.
I was in the school team and wehad a particular game which was
called off because, for somereason, the school that we're
going to be playing didn'tweren't able to show up.
So we had a practice matchwhich meant that you were
playing against your own teamand there was a fast bowler in
our team, a guy called stevecaruana, who, fast bowler I was.
I batted at number four, so Iwas reasonably okay, good,
(16:51):
competent, but he used to scareme because he was a fast bowler.
It's quite scary.
So whenever we were in practice, it would be quite scary and
things like that.
Anyway, in this particular gameand I don't know where it came
from I just had this game, thisperformance, where, instead of
being nervous and anxious andscared.
I remember thinking after awhile going, this is really easy
(17:13):
, and where am I going to hithim next?
I remember just thinking andthis was crazy.
I was like this is so differentfrom how I would normally feel,
to the point that I got to 47and then I was retired because
other people needed to have a go, but I was just left kind of
going well, where's that comefrom?
Then I went fast forward.
I did a master's and I youstudy in a master's in sports
(17:35):
psychology lots of littletheories of performance.
And this experience and a fewothers stuck in my mind as
examples of where I was justfree, I was playing at my best.
And there was an othernesscommonly known nowadays as being
in the zone.
A very wordy Hungarianpsychologist called Mihaly
(17:57):
Csikszentmihalyi had stumbledupon, or he created a framework
around experiences that peoplehad talked about in this sort of
strange terms of it was reallyweird, it didn't happen normally
, yet it was clear that I was atmy best.
Interestingly, climbers oftenwould talk about it Surgeons.
(18:18):
So it's not just a sportingdomain.
There would be you know,surgeons would talk about it as
well this sort of experience ofbeing very absorbed, so you're
completely in it.
The experience, or implicitly orexplicitly, is very challenging
, but you want to achieve thatchallenge, so it's got meaning
for you.
At the same time, you believeyou have the skills to meet the
(18:43):
challenge.
So it's high challenge, butyou've got high belief in your
skills to meet it.
But, as a result, yourabsorption draws you in.
You feel like you're operatingat your best, but you would tend
to have more of a calmness comeover you.
You're not distracted, you havea sense of control, even though
you recognize there are thingsgoing on in the experience which
you can't control.
(19:03):
And ultimately, the thing thatwas interesting is that people
loved it for itself.
They wanted the experience foritself, irrespective of what the
outcome was, although theoutcome was often and it's
positively correlated with peakpersonal performances.
So part of my work is alwaysaround well, how do you get
individuals or teams into thisflow state?
(19:25):
And the thing that carries isalmost how do cultures
facilitate that?
Because we hear a lot,understandably, about working
world and anxiety, stress, allof the things that get in the
way of wellbeing.
And yet this is an experiencewhich, if you get it right, does
the opposite.
People love being in it, theylove coming to work, they love
(19:45):
being absorbed, they'reproducing their best work and
that they love it just for theexperience.
I mean, they'll get paid andthey'll get things like that,
but it seems to be an experiencewhich A is where humans let's
go big picture are at their best, they're most satisfied,
they're at their mostintrinsically kind of best.
(20:07):
And surely organizations that'skind of that's like the keys to
the vault.
It's like if you can create acultural environment which
facilitates flow and being inthe zone, then so much is
possible.
And so a lot of my work isalmost around.
Back to the beginning piece.
How does an interaction helpsomebody get closer to being in
(20:29):
flow and boiling down those kindof characteristics?
That's where the if you havegreater clarity, generally flow
is more likely.
If you're more interested, thenmeaning has gone up.
You're more likely to have theenergy to put in the effort
towards clearer goals.
And then, thirdly, if you'relearning, then you tend to be
more stimulated, you tend to bemore interested, you tend to
(20:51):
have more understanding of howto do that, which grows your
belief in your skills, that youcan do it.
So that's the kind ofconcoction we're playing with
and it's quite interesting asyou get into, flow can be very
Eastern and esoteric, butinterestingly, in the research
which sort of emerged, one of.
Well, I'll ask, I'll ask youboth what do you imagine is the
(21:12):
most daily flow inducingactivity in daily life, like an
activity which by its verydesign is more likely to produce
flow for people?
There was an activity thatpeople do day to day having a
shower commuting.
So, funnily enough, driving acar is a very flow-inducing
activity which, if you thinkabout it, the nature of the
(21:34):
activity, is such that A whenyou're driving there's a degree
of meaning.
You don't want to crash thatpeople and often people would
talk.
We've all had that experiencein the days where we used to
commute more regularly.
(21:55):
Where we drive home on a routewe know quite well and we get to
that point where I go, I don'tremember going around that
roundabout because I'm so intothe experience.
I it's dropped below my levelof awareness.
I'm so in the moment.
So you know the work becomes.
How do you facilitate that?
Cath (22:10):
well, that's so interesting and and I mean I've
thought about it a lot in thesports environment because it is
that nirvana, you know it'swhen everything becomes easy,
it's when you have more time,even though you're exhausted.
In the middle of a race, yeah,suddenly, or you're really in.
You know you're easilysynchronous with the people in
your rowing boat and uh, andit's beautiful, and you sense
(22:34):
the boat lift up, you get thatsort of x factor.
That isn't just about effort,it's about sort of coming
together.
So I recognize that that sortof sense.
Use the word absorption.
I think about you're very inthe moment, you're very present
and you're absolutely notthinking about the result, you
are thinking about the strokeand you're also not sort of
thinking about it in an abc.
I must put my oar in.
(22:55):
You're sort of letting.
You're letting your body theblueprint that you have, you're
trusting it and you're kind ofletting it happen, but also
being alert to the environment.
You know the roughness of thewater and perhaps what else is
going on in the race.
So you know it's just thingsthat are kind of in that balance
and it's very.
(23:16):
The other thing, though, that'sa world where we were sort of
spending all our time trying toget into these peak performance
states.
It's really, really hard to getthere, and so, yeah, I'm
interested to ask you a bitabout how do we facilitate it.
I recognize it in music and insome ways I wonder if music is.
I feel music is easier, maybebecause there isn't, you know,
you're not going through lacticacid in order to sort of play
(23:39):
music or in order to enjoy music.
For me, music is something thatbrings me a state of I just
lose.
You know, I kind of am absorbedby what's going on and it
absorbs me sort of mentally,emotionally, physically by
what's going on and it absorbsme sort of mentally, emotionally
, physically, and so that's thesort of other area I think of it
in.
But yeah, how do we facilitateit?
(23:59):
You talked about clarity, thissort of sense of big moment,
what else?
Jamie (24:05):
So I mean number one, something which is meaningful,
so helping people think about,well, what does this mean for
you?
So a meaning is a big catch-all.
It can be about interest, itcould be about fascination.
All of these adjectives, Ithink, speak to a level of
interest where I'm drawn in.
I remember working years andyears ago.
(24:25):
We were doing focus groups withSafeway, the supermarket chain,
and we were up somewhere in thenorth of england and this group
were talking about what theyenjoyed working in a in a big
safeway store and it was allabout.
It was a cultural changeprogram and there was this lady
who'd been quite quiet, who'stowards the end of the focus
(24:45):
group spoke up and she talkedabout.
She worked on the, on the cashregister in the supermarket, and
this was sort of mid-2000swhere technology hadn't quite
kind of caught up.
But she talked about loving herjob because she loved seeing
how the numbers played out.
So when she was talking about,what she loved about her job was
(25:08):
seeing how the numbers wouldkind of scroll up, which took
everyone by surprise, but it waslike she could find there was a
fascination to what she wasdoing.
So asking people and gettingpeople to think about what's
interesting about that?
What's interesting about thatfor you, I think, is a kind of a
key piece, I think secondarilythen there becomes a clarity,
(25:28):
which we talked about.
But I think there's two thingshere.
Number one is asking what's thebig thing it will give and
what's the output.
But also flow is around beingclear on what I have to do in
this moment.
So the process stuff which interms of culturally often is
what's the team charter, what'sthe way that we've agreed that
we're going to work together tohave a really great meeting and
(25:50):
because that's the process,we're going to listen to people.
Clearly we're going to have aclear goal at the beginning of
the meeting.
We're going to do a review atthe end of the meeting.
We're going to be open andtherefore people can give
feedback to one another duringthe course of.
These are all the process goalswhich allow that would be a
second piece.
The bigger picture is being ableto give each other feedback,
and feedback is often like oh,things you need to change, but
(26:14):
actually feedback about what'sgone well, because another piece
of think about flow is, if youdon't have high confidence, it's
going to be harder to achieve.
So I think some of the workthat you and I have done around
evidence rules or belief rules,and getting people to think
about where we've made progressbuilds that sense of belief,
(26:34):
which builds that sense ofactually, even though it's a
challenging goal.
We've done things like thisbefore, so it means, therefore,
your mindset is much more.
We can do this and I canstretch myself and I can be less
distracted and more focused,because often what takes our
focus is doubt, thoughts that wecan't do something, thoughts
(26:54):
that we aren't going to be goodat able to do certain things.
But if you build belief, thenbelief tends to be.
I know I can.
These are the things I shouldbe doing, that kind of stuff.
So meaningfulness, clarity ofgoal, but clarity of how we'll
do it, not just what we'retrying to get to at the end.
I think there's something aboutfeedback.
I think is the piece.
(27:15):
I think there's something aboutbuilding belief, which is
partly learning and reviewingare all bits which help shift
the dial.
I think, and I think it's keyto say with focus and with flow
that it's not a black and whiteexperience.
You'll have deeper levels ofabsorption of focus and less
(27:35):
deep, and what we're trying todo culturally is, as I like to
say, shift the deck more infavor of.
I'm more absorbed, I'm clearer,I'm really fascinated.
I've got the belief and thelearning to know what to do if
various things come up andtherefore better performances
come out, and I enjoy and I'mstimulated and I love the
experience for itself so I'vejust written a whole new
(27:58):
framework based on what you justsaid, that we can obviously now
use and cope.
So I've got the a, b, c, d, e, f, g, of right of of delivery.
So a is agency, so this iseverybody kind of working
together, feeling that they havea say we're kind of all one,
we're in it.
The B is belief.
(28:18):
So then it's like gaining thatclarity and having that sense of
yes, we can do this.
Then there's commitment.
So we're all committed to this.
There's not one person on oneside of the room going I don't
believe we can do this.
Then there's discipline toactually say we're going to not
do that thing which we talkedabout earlier, but we're going
to do this thing instead.
Then there's encouragement,because we all hit roadblocks
(28:40):
every now and again.
There's that constant reminderthat we can do it.
Then there's feedback, to sortof say I like this, but here's
one thing to think about, orthis was really good, keep going
.
And that leads to goalachievement.
So there we go a, b, c, d, e.
If we had more time we couldhave done the whole alphabet,
but let's just leave it therethe a to g of flow in the
(29:01):
workplace there it is, yeah, andI think, well, I mean I would
say this because I'm biased, buta culture change can be quite
nebulous.
B, often people come to culturebecause of the dysfunction of
their current culture, be itbecause it's toxic, be it
because they can't sustain highperformance, whatever the
reasons might be.
(29:22):
And the thing I love about thisis it flips it on its head,
because if you get it righterrather than wronger, people are
more engaged, people are moreeffective.
Goals will come to you thatyou've set to achieve rather
than chasing after them, and sotherefore, in theory, it should
become wholly more enriching forindividuals, for teams, for
(29:46):
organizations.
I mean, I said it earlier, butI like to say you know, it
becomes the keys to the vault interms of what could be possible
, particularly around payingattention to our A, b, c, d, e,
f, g.
Colin (29:59):
Yeah, there we go.
Cath (30:01):
Beautiful.
That's our takeaway, I think,isn't it?
A to G, jamie, colin Cass.
A to G of, yeah, reaching flowin the workplace.
So, jamie, you're specialisingeven more in this space.
Now Tell us how can listenersfind out more about your
thinking and what you do?
Jamie (30:20):
I think the best place is LinkedIn, so we have a Culture
EQ as a LinkedIn page.
Direct Message Me reallyinterested to kind of help in
terms of how do you furtherfacilitate it.
I think one of the pieces, too,is that often with
organizations that I work with,there often are pockets where
things are working better andthey're more flow inducing and
(30:43):
the question then becomes ratherthan it being a hook line,
sinker, angling manual, completechange.
It's how do we spread some ofthe thinking, particularly in
terms of how leaders payattention to these things, which
can facilitate it acrossorganizations and therefore, you
know, have chase rather thanchase results.
(31:03):
Let results come to you and, atthe same time, increase
enjoyment and satisfaction andengagement for people within
their organizations.
Yeah, it's a fascinating kindof concept.
Great.
Well, we'll provide links toJamie, to his LinkedIn profile
and also to CultureEQ as well.
And, jamie, it's been so greathaving you on the show, and I
(31:24):
think this has been a perfectexample of flow, because when I
first looked down to see howlong we'd spent talking, it was
26 minutes.
I'm like what?
So?
Yes, so, thank you so much forbeing on the show.
Thank you so much for sharingyour wisdom, your insights, your
experience, and I don't knowabout you, Cath, but there's so
much that I've taken from this,nevermind other people listening
(31:44):
to it.
Cath (31:44):
Yeah, I've made a lot of notes.
I really enjoyed theconversation.
I always find itmind-stretching-provoking and,
uh yeah, there'll be lots ofthoughts going around my head
the rest of the day good stuff.
Thank you very much both of you.
Thanks, jamie, for joining uscheers bye thanks for listening
to today's inside out culturepodcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
(32:06):
with others who you think may beinterested.
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