December 5, 2024 • 26 mins
We are constantly asked how we do what we do, so in this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast, we share some of our workshop exercises as well as talking about what a good culture workshop experience looks (and sounds!) like.
Specifically we talk about:
- Personality surveys
- Developing cultural norms
- Articulating a vision
- Lego Serious Play®
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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colin (00:02):
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Cath (00:33):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast, and todaywe're going to talk about some
of the exercises that we do whenwe're building culture with
teams, some of the activities,some of the examples that we do
when we're building culture withteams, some of the activities,
some of the examples of how wehelp other teams, because we
thought there's probably lots ofinterest in that and we're
always chatting and swappingstories and tools and we're
(00:56):
really keen, through thispodcast, to help others get more
competent and confident aboutbeing really proactive in
building positive culture in theworkplace.
So, yeah, we're going to bedoing some sharing.
We've had to sort of thinkthrough our lists of all the
stuff that we just do anddistill a few of the things that
are perhaps most useful.
Colin, where are you going tostart?
Colin (01:15):
Well, I'm going to start with personality surveys and
interestingly, Cath, I had thegood fortune, in promoting my
new book, detox your Culture, tospeak to Bruce Daisley recently
of the Eat Sleep Work Repeat Ihope I got that in the right
order podcast, which I highlyrecommend.
You know, we're alwaysrecommending other people's
podcasts, and Bruce had listenedto one of our podcasts and he
(01:37):
talked about or he said you know, you talk about the fact that
you can change engagement.
How do you do that?
And so I think it's a usefultool to be able to share some of
the exercises that we do.
So I'm going to start with themuch maligned personality survey
, because now I love a goodpersonality survey, but then I
would, as a high extrovert, Ilove it and someone who's
(01:58):
fascinated by human dynamics andalways have been, and so I love
to know how I have personallyevolved.
I always say that your goal as ahuman is not to stay the same.
Your goal as a human is tolearn, is to grow, is to make
mistakes, is to learn, is togrow, is to make mistakes.
It's kind of a never-endingcycle, and what I like most
(02:21):
about the personality survey isthat it gives you an insight
into who you are and what you'reabout.
Now, the reason that it's muchmaligned is that, firstly,
there's some scientists whocross swords over whether it's
factual or not, and I think ifit's presented as factual,
that's when it becomesproblematic, because essentially
(02:42):
it's a computer algorithmthat's processing how you answer
questions to give you some kindof scoring.
So you know much.
Like we say with an engagementsurvey, it's not an exact
science.
The same is true as apersonality survey.
However, that's not to decrythe work of Carl Jung, who you
know, who's very much thegrandfather of the personality
survey.
(03:03):
He segment forward, of course,with his theory around ego and
super ego.
It's malign, though, becausetoo often what people try and do
is to jam you in a box and go.
You're one of those.
That's you do.
You see this color, that's yourcolor, and I remember doing
myers-briggs and it'sfascinating.
So we don't have time to gointo it, but it's fascinating
(03:24):
story about how this first cameto be my Myers-Briggs.
Basically, catherine Myers Ithink it was was a big fan of
Carl Jung's work and decided tocreate a survey on how mothers
could improve theirrelationships with their
children.
It's still used today, but Iremember doing it in New Zealand
in 2007.
When I just arrived there, I Icame out as an ENTJ and I was
(03:46):
told that's who you are, here'swhat people like you do.
And I read this thing and I'mlike, nope, that's not exactly
what I am.
Listen, was it broadly right?
It was about 90% right, but Ididn't like the way that it put
me into a box.
Also, the exercise made it allabout me, and we know that
self-awareness is really, reallyimportant for culture.
(04:06):
In fact, self-aware individualsare the building blocks of
great teams.
Right?
Self-awareness, self-managementis crucially important.
All right, and this is whatleads to those fantastic human
traits like empathy andvulnerability and all these
other things.
When I do personality surveys,which I always do at the start
of my workshops, I've got a toolthat I use myself or I leverage
(04:29):
what the organization hasalready done.
I make sure that people knowthat it's an insight into some
of the traits that they may have.
I always get people to talkabout their reports or their
results and talk about what theyagreed with, but also what they
disagree with, because I whatthey disagree with, because I
(04:49):
want to make sure that theyunderstand that it's not an
exact science and actually, ashuman beings.
No one can ever put us in a box.
Of course, the goal of theexercise is not to identify you
as a particular color, althoughthat is a byproduct of it and
the goal of the exercise is toget people talking about their
preferences.
And so the whole you know, whenI do two day culture workshops I
ran one recently the wholefirst half day is all about
(05:13):
building relationships andtalking to people about who you
are, how you like to communicate, how you like to work, what
your preferences are, which mayor may not actually be in the
report.
So I remember one HR managersaid to me once she was like oh,
so you're using a personalitysurvey as a bit of a cloak and
(05:33):
it's about what's under thecloak.
I'm like well, kind of.
But essentially it's a toolthat I use to help people build
relationships and also tounderstand themselves a little
bit better.
So I think a personality survey, used in the right way, can
help inform oneself about yourown personal evolution journey
and maybe what you're good at soyou can help other people,
(05:55):
maybe what your personality isnot so good at, so maybe it's
something that you need to workon, but fundamentally it's a way
of helping people to talk abouthow they feel who they are and
strengthen the bonds betweenthose people such that they can
work together better in thefuture.
So, yeah, that's always where Istart my culture workshops.
Cath (06:18):
Yeah, interesting.
I worry about personalityservice for all the reasons that
you laid out.
I particularly worry whenpeople use it for hiring and
firing.
And yeah, if the goal isdeepening understanding, then
anything that helps aconversation is good and
sometimes people need somethingsort of tangible to start that
with.
But it's really important thatthat information isn't kind of
(06:41):
abused or taken into sort ofother processes it's just not
appropriate for.
So that's yeah, I agree.
Colin (06:49):
Yeah, one team I work with.
One of the suggestions was oh,let's get badges made.
I was like no, absolutely not.
Don't do that under anycircumstances.
It's not about a label.
Cath (06:59):
Yeah, the labeling piece, the boxing.
We're so desperate to putpeople in boxes and labels and
things and that's that's thedanger.
But yeah, so, as with all ofthese tools, it's actually how
you use them, how you frame themand the conversation that you
use them to stimulate.
Yeah, I, I sort of like to usesometimes just really simple
questions and to get teams tothink about things from
(07:22):
different perspectives.
So you might kind of go intothe future and ask what do you
want people, what do you want tobe known for in five years time
as a team?
What are the things that youwant to look back on when you
know, when you leave this team,or when you finish this big
project you're working on?
Or you know, in 10 years time?
Or what are the things that youwant to be remembered for,
(07:44):
because often it's not sort ofyou know, getting all our
metrics right or working reallylong hours.
So sometimes I use questions totake people into sort of like a
future retrospective mode.
Also use questions aroundmetaphors.
So how would you describe yourteam in terms of a type of boat
and maybe you might say whattype of boat would you like to
(08:04):
become?
And metaphors are reallypowerful because they sum up
really quickly in a commonlanguage how we feel about the
team.
If you ask someone in wordssimply, how do you feel your
team describe it, it's oftenquite difficult to get at that
deeper level.
If you ask them what sort ofboat are you?
Of course you can ask any kindof metaphor question People will
use animals, people will useall sorts of things Then they'll
(08:27):
immediately say, yeah, well,we're a bit of a tanker.
Or we're definitely not aspeedboat, but we'd like to be a
little bit more agile.
Or yeah, it's a sailing boat.
We've all got lots of roles andI find that the descriptions
that come after they give thatso they say it's a rowing boat,
because blah, blah, blah arebeautiful and that's what I'm
looking to get and that reallygives me a sense of what it's
(08:48):
like to be in this team.
That if I simply ask what's itlike to be in this team, I just
don't get that same precisionand it's also something that we
can all relate to.
I can see the differencebetween a sailing boat and a
tanker and visually immediatelywe're speaking the same language
and then it's quite fun and itbecomes a little bit more
tangible and then together youmight create the sort of boat
(09:10):
you want to become.
So it helps us to talk aboutdeep culture in a way that is
often quite difficult to justdescribe.
And the other thing that's quitea good question to ask is what
are the unspoken rules aroundhere?
You know what are the sort of10 commandments that aren't
written down in the HR handbook,but you know.
That's things like you knowwhen the most senior person in
(09:30):
the room speaks first.
Never be the first to leave inthe afternoon.
These sorts of things arereally powerful indicators of
what your culture is like.
Nobody's written them on thewall, with good reason, but they
govern how we behave, andthat's what we're trying to
understand what's happeningcurrently and then shape.
Actually, what would we likethe unspoken rules to be?
(09:52):
Are we happy with those ones?
Let's get them out in the openand then let's reshape them.
So different questions that getto that that unlock the deeper
piece.
When you can't ask what's thedeep culture like around here?
Yeah, you just won't get that.
What are the unspoken rulesaround here?
What are the things that youneed to know or that you pick up
within two days when you're newhere that nobody tells you in
(10:12):
your induction.
Colin (10:13):
Those are the sorts of things we all know them that I
want to get to, to get to thatserious sense of the lived
experience, the deeper cultureand do those questions then,
Cath, do they help to shape Ithink you mentioned it, but to
help to shape the new, what wewould call cultural norms within
a team?
Is that the goal to move awayfrom one, to evolve into
(10:34):
something else?
Cath (10:35):
Yeah, to articulate where you are now at the deeper level,
and then to go, oh, do we wantto keep those, what do we want
to be, and what are we going toneed to change then in order to
do that?
So, yeah, it helps teams tohave a sense of where they're at
now and then, where do we wantto get to?
And then there's this journeythat's going all the time,
that's happening througheverything we do.
(10:56):
But you can have that sense of,oh, am I behaving?
That's kind of going to make usa bit more like a tanker, or am
I really using this nextproject challenge to help us
become a bit more agile, becomea bit more of a speedboat?
It gives you a quick commonlanguage to call things out and
to build norms around that.
If we want to be a more agilespeedboat, what does that
actually require for us?
And then people go well, hangon, maybe we don't need to be
(11:17):
that fast for a speedboatbecause we also need some
stability.
So actually you can just sortof shape it the whole time,
co-create together what you wantto be, and obviously the
behaviors then kind of connectto that quite, uh, quite nicely,
but behaviors in isolation todiscuss.
I find it's often reallydifficult to do?
Colin (11:36):
yeah, they have that.
Yeah, the behaviors have toconnect.
For for when I'm um gettingteams to agree new behaviors,
I've like a little card deckthat we, that we produce and we
update it every year with whatare the new behaviors expected
of individuals in the workplace,and it has.
All of those things have toconnect to something.
You know we connect it.
I in my workshop, I'm connectedto the vision yeah, what's the
(11:57):
vision?
and what behaviors do we need todemonstrate in order to achieve
the vision, and then that theninforms the, the shared vision.
And actually, can you evenarticulate that to people?
Can they connect their?
And what behaviors do we needto demonstrate in order to
achieve the vision and then thatthen?
Cath (12:03):
informs the norms, the shared vision, and actually, can
you even articulate that topeople?
Can they connect their ownroles to that?
What do people think it is?
And often we have quite amixture of mission statements
and vision statements andpurpose statements, and you're
more particular than I am aboutwhat each one has to be.
I just want to make surethere's something that everyone
feels connected to and makessense and is about not just a
(12:25):
number of 10% growth orsomething like that.
It's actually about what's that10% growth going to enable,
what's the impact on othersoutside of your team, that
you're going to have that biggersense of why you do the jobs
that you do.
That's essential.
Colin (12:40):
Yeah, and that's true.
I'm very, very particular, butonly for the point that you made
there.
It has to make sense.
Too often what I'll see is avision statement that's like
five sentences long.
That makes no sense.
It's not memorable in the, inthe slightest, and the exercises
that I run around.
Vision it might be a good timeto share this actually is.
I'll put a good old post-itnotes on everybody's table and
(13:03):
get them to write outaspirational words that they
then use to shape a visionstatement.
I get each table to come upwith about 10 vision statements
based on these aspirationalwords and I literally move table
to table and I'll pick up wordsthat I don't believe are
aspirational and, to make apoint, I'll screw the post-it up
and throw it on the floor.
It's a sense of good fun.
I'm not treading on anyone'sideas, I'm saying no, this is
(13:25):
what.
This is kind of what we'relooking for.
So these aspirational words arevery much words, that kind of
light, a fire, that they tend tobe bigger than the
transactional words that we use.
Things like gold, you know, oneof the one of the words that I
always, you know, kind of rejectis, is anything that you can't
actually define.
So you know, people are alwayslooking to to remember the exact
(13:50):
word that I'm looking for atthe minute, but they're always
trying to.
You know, look for a goal andit's always woolly and it's
never specific enough and peopleare like, yeah, we, you know
we've got to get, oh, efficiency.
There's a word.
Anything that's more efficientis like.
What does that mean in practice?
That's not an aspirational wordmaking something more efficient
.
So people will use.
They'll come up with like 20different words and then I get
them to use the words to shapevision statements, usually no
(14:13):
more than six to eight words,because after that it's very
hard to remember a sentenceabout using post-its.
Cath (14:25):
It's very interactive, there's a lot of movement in the
room, and that's reallyimportant.
I think people always have thisoh God, here the facilitators
come.
That means we're going to haveflip charts and post-its and all
that, but it's so important andI always make a point of saying
why am I getting you to movearound?
Why am I asking you to usepost-its?
It's not for me.
I don't need post-its in mylife, although you know, perhaps
at times I might feel a bitaddicted to them.
(14:46):
I've always got a few down thebottom of my bag just in case
you turn up and there aren't anythere, and then I finally got
them with me all the time.
You know sometimes write mynotes on them, and so I think
it's about we want everyone tohave a voice in this process,
and a lot of the time, meetings,which is how most work gets
done, is really poor in terms ofengaging people, in terms of
(15:09):
getting their ideas and having avoice.
I mean, it's too slow most ofthe time for a meeting.
If everyone speaks, it's justgoing to take too long, and so
therefore, people opt out.
We don't hear their viewsbecause we haven't got time, and
so, actually, postnet isfantastic for giving everyone a
voice at the same time, and evenif there are things you don't
immediately capture and pick up,it's there, it's recorded and,
(15:30):
again, I always make a point ofbeing sure I've read everything
that's gone up, in case there'sa little gem, as there often is,
that maybe didn't get spokenaloud.
That is really helpful to movethings on or to add a different
dimension to the thinking or tochallenge the thinking.
It's much harder to say it outloud into a room than it is to
write down.
What about this?
So I love that because it givesus those checks on.
(15:53):
Oh, we're all getting a bitcarried away over here, but what
about this?
You know we want those sort ofelephants brought into the room.
So interactivity is a crucialpart of how we do everything.
I think it makes it fun as well, so that increases the
engagement, the connection.
Drawn into wanting to do somemore training on that is because
I saw it being used in othersituations as being a really
(16:30):
great tool that involveseveryone.
By the way, you don't have tolike Lego.
I personally have never playedwith Lego.
It's actually a slightlydifferent kit often, yeah, and
my kids don't even really likeit.
It's probably because I'venever really been that
enthusiastic, but I was alwaysslightly relieved.
But I actually really enjoydoing this and the way it's very
clever, the way it's sort ofset up and it helps you to
(16:50):
actually sort of go againstrules that you might think exist
about how things, how theblocks and how the different
shapes fit together, and itreally helps you to be quite
creative.
But it gives everyone a voicewithout needing to speak and
that everyone will build andeveryone a voice without needing
to speak and that everyone willbuild.
And it also is a way ofexpressing some really complex
concepts like psychologicalsafety.
What does it mean to you?
(17:15):
And putting that into a littlesomething that you build is a
really great way for everyone toexplain what it means to them,
to help them to formulate theirown thinking about a topic that
if you just rely on words, it'soften quite difficult for
everyone to kind of feelcomfortable doing that and it
sometimes becomes a bit what doyou mean by that?
What do you mean by that?
But the way people build theirmodels, and then you have to
also be able to describe whateach bit means.
(17:36):
So I've used this here and thatrepresents this, and anything
can represent anything on yourmodel.
So it's really creative.
It's very democratic.
Everybody builds and then youcan do some shared builds,
drawing on the individual buildsto create a shared model, and
so it's just been a reallylovely way of having a different
tool that can bring some quitecomplex concepts, and I saw
(17:59):
someone else using a lot forhelping people understand what a
psychological safety mean andin our workplace what's it going
to to look like and then to beworking that out together, so
that's been quite a kind ofinteresting learning for me.
I'm still feel like I'mlearning all the time how to use
it better, watching otherlittle videos of how people are
doing it, but, um, it's been areally great tool to add into my
(18:22):
toolkit.
Colin (18:23):
I've never used Lego myself.
I've been part of a workshopthat uses Lego but I imagine one
of the good things that it adds, as well as the interaction and
the noise, which is always good.
I think you know, whenever Istart a workshop, I get people
talking to each other as soon asI possibly can.
I've been to too many workshopsmyself as an employee where the
facilitator made it all aboutthemselves for the first hour.
(18:45):
It's like you know, as afacilitator, actually your job
is to help other people talk toeach other, not for them just to
listen to you.
If I'm doing a keynote speechfor an hour, then people are
paying to listen to me.
I totally get that, but as afacilitator, I'm facilitating
conversations.
But the other good thing Iimagine with Lego is color, and
(19:06):
what color does, is it reallyunlocks the brain, as well as
the exercise as well.
And again, based on my own pastexperiences, and something that
I do all of the time in myworkshops is my the slide,
because someone asked me not solong ago do you use PowerPoint?
I was like I do, but not in theway that other people use it.
There's no, there's not loadsof bullet points, it's not in
black and white.
I use colorful images.
I'll embed TED Talks in mypresentation.
(19:29):
Everything's got to be specific, everything's got to have a
point, it's got to neatly linkto the next thing.
But the use of color, I think,is crucially important because
it just unlocks something in thebrain.
Also, for anybody who's read mybooks, you'll know that at the
end of my books often the mostpopular bit is my music list,
and so I use music.
(19:49):
If you use music, Cath, I usemusic in my workshops and for my
two-day workshops people cansuggest music.
So I end up becoming partfacilitator, part DJ, part
keynote speaker.
It's exhausting, but that for me, is all part of the experience.
And, of course, by the secondhalf of the first day it's
always a little bit nervy.
(20:09):
First half of the day peopleare requesting music, people are
singing, which is great, whichis what you want, because at
that stage people are relaxed,they're comfortable, and I
imagine that's why I'm saying Iimagine the same with Lego.
Is there not a childishness?
But we unlock the inner child,where all of a sudden play
becomes a good thing.
And yes, that's a seriousbusiness of defining our culture
(20:30):
and that's the end point.
And, as facilitators, that'swhere we're taking people.
But actually, if they can getinto a mode of play or kind of
relaxed engagement, it's goingto enhance the outcome 100%.
Cath (20:41):
It's great, yeah, it's really great for that.
It's about playful learning,learning through playing.
And you're right, there'scolour, there's shapes, there's
texture, there's touch.
So you know, you're reallytapping into all of our senses
and there's a huge listeninginvolved Possibly one of the
most powerful things, because,as you're describing your model,
you're telling a story andeverybody's really engaged and
(21:05):
we often have a sort ofwhoever's speaking has this
little Lego stick and everyonewas listening to that because
also, they might.
Then, when we build the sharedmodel, they're going to go oh, I
like that, I'm going to stealthis bit and we'll put this bit
together.
And how do we?
How about we take this and thisand put them together?
And so you actually getfantastic listening because
people are telling a story.
It's easier, it's justfascinating to.
(21:33):
Oh, how creative.
So you learn, yeah, you learnso much.
It's been a really great tool.
Colin (21:36):
I'm looking forward to experimenting with more groups
with that.
For sure, and I think you knowif you can take anything from
this.
What Cath and I are talkingabout is building an experience
in and of itself that peoplewill talk about, and so I always
say the best outcome from oneof my workshops yeah, listen, we
always measure them.
I always want to see theculture improve, but if people
(21:57):
immediately go back to wherevertheir place of work is
regardless of whether it's homeor the office or the field
wherever they work the next dayand they're talking about the
experience they had, thenalready the workshop has added
something.
Somebody asked me not so longago I can't remember whether it
was an interview or podcast orsomething and they said well,
where did you get the formatfrom your workshops?
(22:19):
I said, well, it's anaccumulation of things over time
.
I was like I've done somereally, really terrible
workshops as an employee, and nofault of the facilitator.
They either misread the room,they were employed to do
something that you know wasn'trequired.
I was like but I took thatknowledge.
But I've also done some reallygreat things in 2010 with this
(22:44):
guy whose name escapes now.
His first name is Rich, he's anAmerican guy and he used music
throughout, and I'd never, ever,been to a workshop where there
was music ever in myprofessional life.
Up to that point, and eversince I used to have this book,
which I've talked about in thepast, I used to write all these
ideas down and ever since thenI've used music, and the way
(23:05):
that he used it was so dynamicand it was so great, and so
there's as much to learn frompoor experiences as there is
from good ones, but if you cancreate something that generates
a story in and of itself, thenit immediately contributes to a
change in condition.
Cath (23:19):
Yeah, that's lovely, isn't it?
And that's the thing that theseworkshops evolve all the time.
We are accruing new tools andpeople need different things in
different organizations at adifferent point of maturity, and
that's key for us, isn't it?
Is to understand where they'reat and what will help them to
move on.
And you can't just apply, youknow you've got to do this
vision thing, you've got to dothat thing next, you know,
(23:42):
actually, it's having all ofthose tools and kind of getting
a sense of this is what willhelp you next, and these are the
building blocks.
And so, yeah, I always feelevery, every workshop is unique
and that helps me to be reallypresent and focusing and
adapting all the time andthinking how else can I, can I,
you know, get more out of peopleto to really mean they, they've
got something really useful toto kind of build on and
(24:05):
hopefully also we've got morethan one go, because culture
doesn't happen in a workshop,doesn't happen in three hours or
one day, that you need to leaveenough that there are also some
clear sense of how that getscontinued and deepened and
strengthened and built on allthe time.
Colin (24:19):
Yeah, I think, possibly a good place to end.
This is a good reminder that,whatever exercises that you
undertake to strengthen yourculture, remember you're only
building the foundations.
That's all you're building.
You're building the foundationsand then it's up to the team to
start building on top of thoseand, yes, you might see an
immediate jump in engagement andproductivity.
(24:40):
Often I do, but it's the longtail of activity that really
generates that sense oftogetherness, connectedness,
belonging, and that's whereyou'll see the gains over the
long term.
And so, for Cath and I and Ihope you've enjoyed today, I've
enjoyed talking about it is ourjob is to help you to build
those foundations, and you cando likewise.
Cath (24:59):
Yeah, I do know.
I'm really struck.
That reminds me of all the sortof sporting examples where
actually you don't have fancyworkshops, Maybe you get
together a little bit at thebeginning.
But it is so fundamental.
How do we want to turn up dayin, day out, on the really
difficult days, on the days welose a match?
How are we going to show up inthose moments and holding
ourselves to that?
It's all about the livedculture and the workshops, as
(25:19):
you say, they set you up, theygive you a little extra momentum
, some clarity, bringing peopletogether, setting off.
So we're on the same track.
But it's then.
What happens the next day isabsolutely critical and I often
think people put less into that.
That's sort of the biggerproblem with training more
generally, leadershipdevelopment and culture and all
(25:40):
of these elements, that it's allabout the content on the day,
the content of the program, butit's not.
It's all about the translationof that workshop into your
workplace.
So that's really critical and Ikeep thinking that's where the
learning development world isgoing to move more.
It needs to for it to be reallyimpactful and make sense.
But you know, therefore, youwant more of a coaching approach
(26:01):
and you want people to be ableto go into the workplace
afterwards to help some of thattranslation as well.
So, yeah, there's a lot to makesure people are thinking about
not just what can I get in oneworkshop and then have finished
it, but actually how does thisthen connect into everyday life
and the infinite game?
Colin (26:18):
of building culture.
So culture, as I always say,cultures evolve over time.
They don't change in two days.
Well, Cath, it's been reallyinteresting to talk about some
of the work that we do.
I hope others take somethingfrom them.
Cath (26:30):
Great to chat, as always.
Thanks very much.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out Culture.
Colin (26:36):
Podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested.
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Cath (00:33):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast, and todaywe're going to talk about some
of the exercises that we do whenwe're building culture with
teams, some of the activities,some of the examples that we do
when we're building culture withteams, some of the activities,
some of the examples of how wehelp other teams, because we
thought there's probably lots ofinterest in that and we're
always chatting and swappingstories and tools and we're
(00:56):
really keen, through thispodcast, to help others get more
competent and confident aboutbeing really proactive in
building positive culture in theworkplace.
So, yeah, we're going to bedoing some sharing.
We've had to sort of thinkthrough our lists of all the
stuff that we just do anddistill a few of the things that
are perhaps most useful.
Colin, where are you going tostart?
Colin (01:15):
Well, I'm going to start with personality surveys and
interestingly, Cath, I had thegood fortune, in promoting my
new book, detox your Culture, tospeak to Bruce Daisley recently
of the Eat Sleep Work Repeat Ihope I got that in the right
order podcast, which I highlyrecommend.
You know, we're alwaysrecommending other people's
podcasts, and Bruce had listenedto one of our podcasts and he
(01:37):
talked about or he said you know, you talk about the fact that
you can change engagement.
How do you do that?
And so I think it's a usefultool to be able to share some of
the exercises that we do.
So I'm going to start with themuch maligned personality survey
, because now I love a goodpersonality survey, but then I
would, as a high extrovert, Ilove it and someone who's
(01:58):
fascinated by human dynamics andalways have been, and so I love
to know how I have personallyevolved.
I always say that your goal as ahuman is not to stay the same.
Your goal as a human is tolearn, is to grow, is to make
mistakes, is to learn, is togrow, is to make mistakes.
It's kind of a never-endingcycle, and what I like most
(02:21):
about the personality survey isthat it gives you an insight
into who you are and what you'reabout.
Now, the reason that it's muchmaligned is that, firstly,
there's some scientists whocross swords over whether it's
factual or not, and I think ifit's presented as factual,
that's when it becomesproblematic, because essentially
(02:42):
it's a computer algorithmthat's processing how you answer
questions to give you some kindof scoring.
So you know much.
Like we say with an engagementsurvey, it's not an exact
science.
The same is true as apersonality survey.
However, that's not to decrythe work of Carl Jung, who you
know, who's very much thegrandfather of the personality
survey.
(03:03):
He segment forward, of course,with his theory around ego and
super ego.
It's malign, though, becausetoo often what people try and do
is to jam you in a box and go.
You're one of those.
That's you do.
You see this color, that's yourcolor, and I remember doing
myers-briggs and it'sfascinating.
So we don't have time to gointo it, but it's fascinating
(03:24):
story about how this first cameto be my Myers-Briggs.
Basically, catherine Myers Ithink it was was a big fan of
Carl Jung's work and decided tocreate a survey on how mothers
could improve theirrelationships with their
children.
It's still used today, but Iremember doing it in New Zealand
in 2007.
When I just arrived there, I Icame out as an ENTJ and I was
(03:46):
told that's who you are, here'swhat people like you do.
And I read this thing and I'mlike, nope, that's not exactly
what I am.
Listen, was it broadly right?
It was about 90% right, but Ididn't like the way that it put
me into a box.
Also, the exercise made it allabout me, and we know that
self-awareness is really, reallyimportant for culture.
(04:06):
In fact, self-aware individualsare the building blocks of
great teams.
Right?
Self-awareness, self-managementis crucially important.
All right, and this is whatleads to those fantastic human
traits like empathy andvulnerability and all these
other things.
When I do personality surveys,which I always do at the start
of my workshops, I've got a toolthat I use myself or I leverage
(04:29):
what the organization hasalready done.
I make sure that people knowthat it's an insight into some
of the traits that they may have.
I always get people to talkabout their reports or their
results and talk about what theyagreed with, but also what they
disagree with, because I whatthey disagree with, because I
(04:49):
want to make sure that theyunderstand that it's not an
exact science and actually, ashuman beings.
No one can ever put us in a box.
Of course, the goal of theexercise is not to identify you
as a particular color, althoughthat is a byproduct of it and
the goal of the exercise is toget people talking about their
preferences.
And so the whole you know, whenI do two day culture workshops I
ran one recently the wholefirst half day is all about
(05:13):
building relationships andtalking to people about who you
are, how you like to communicate, how you like to work, what
your preferences are, which mayor may not actually be in the
report.
So I remember one HR managersaid to me once she was like oh,
so you're using a personalitysurvey as a bit of a cloak and
(05:33):
it's about what's under thecloak.
I'm like well, kind of.
But essentially it's a toolthat I use to help people build
relationships and also tounderstand themselves a little
bit better.
So I think a personality survey, used in the right way, can
help inform oneself about yourown personal evolution journey
and maybe what you're good at soyou can help other people,
(05:55):
maybe what your personality isnot so good at, so maybe it's
something that you need to workon, but fundamentally it's a way
of helping people to talk abouthow they feel who they are and
strengthen the bonds betweenthose people such that they can
work together better in thefuture.
So, yeah, that's always where Istart my culture workshops.
Cath (06:18):
Yeah, interesting.
I worry about personalityservice for all the reasons that
you laid out.
I particularly worry whenpeople use it for hiring and
firing.
And yeah, if the goal isdeepening understanding, then
anything that helps aconversation is good and
sometimes people need somethingsort of tangible to start that
with.
But it's really important thatthat information isn't kind of
(06:41):
abused or taken into sort ofother processes it's just not
appropriate for.
So that's yeah, I agree.
Colin (06:49):
Yeah, one team I work with.
One of the suggestions was oh,let's get badges made.
I was like no, absolutely not.
Don't do that under anycircumstances.
It's not about a label.
Cath (06:59):
Yeah, the labeling piece, the boxing.
We're so desperate to putpeople in boxes and labels and
things and that's that's thedanger.
But yeah, so, as with all ofthese tools, it's actually how
you use them, how you frame themand the conversation that you
use them to stimulate.
Yeah, I, I sort of like to usesometimes just really simple
questions and to get teams tothink about things from
(07:22):
different perspectives.
So you might kind of go intothe future and ask what do you
want people, what do you want tobe known for in five years time
as a team?
What are the things that youwant to look back on when you
know, when you leave this team,or when you finish this big
project you're working on?
Or you know, in 10 years time?
Or what are the things that youwant to be remembered for,
(07:44):
because often it's not sort ofyou know, getting all our
metrics right or working reallylong hours.
So sometimes I use questions totake people into sort of like a
future retrospective mode.
Also use questions aroundmetaphors.
So how would you describe yourteam in terms of a type of boat
and maybe you might say whattype of boat would you like to
(08:04):
become?
And metaphors are reallypowerful because they sum up
really quickly in a commonlanguage how we feel about the
team.
If you ask someone in wordssimply, how do you feel your
team describe it, it's oftenquite difficult to get at that
deeper level.
If you ask them what sort ofboat are you?
Of course you can ask any kindof metaphor question People will
use animals, people will useall sorts of things Then they'll
(08:27):
immediately say, yeah, well,we're a bit of a tanker.
Or we're definitely not aspeedboat, but we'd like to be a
little bit more agile.
Or yeah, it's a sailing boat.
We've all got lots of roles andI find that the descriptions
that come after they give thatso they say it's a rowing boat,
because blah, blah, blah arebeautiful and that's what I'm
looking to get and that reallygives me a sense of what it's
(08:48):
like to be in this team.
That if I simply ask what's itlike to be in this team, I just
don't get that same precisionand it's also something that we
can all relate to.
I can see the differencebetween a sailing boat and a
tanker and visually immediatelywe're speaking the same language
and then it's quite fun and itbecomes a little bit more
tangible and then together youmight create the sort of boat
(09:10):
you want to become.
So it helps us to talk aboutdeep culture in a way that is
often quite difficult to justdescribe.
And the other thing that's quitea good question to ask is what
are the unspoken rules aroundhere?
You know what are the sort of10 commandments that aren't
written down in the HR handbook,but you know.
That's things like you knowwhen the most senior person in
(09:30):
the room speaks first.
Never be the first to leave inthe afternoon.
These sorts of things arereally powerful indicators of
what your culture is like.
Nobody's written them on thewall, with good reason, but they
govern how we behave, andthat's what we're trying to
understand what's happeningcurrently and then shape.
Actually, what would we likethe unspoken rules to be?
(09:52):
Are we happy with those ones?
Let's get them out in the openand then let's reshape them.
So different questions that getto that that unlock the deeper
piece.
When you can't ask what's thedeep culture like around here?
Yeah, you just won't get that.
What are the unspoken rulesaround here?
What are the things that youneed to know or that you pick up
within two days when you're newhere that nobody tells you in
(10:12):
your induction.
Colin (10:13):
Those are the sorts of things we all know them that I
want to get to, to get to thatserious sense of the lived
experience, the deeper cultureand do those questions then,
Cath, do they help to shape Ithink you mentioned it, but to
help to shape the new, what wewould call cultural norms within
a team?
Is that the goal to move awayfrom one, to evolve into
(10:34):
something else?
Cath (10:35):
Yeah, to articulate where you are now at the deeper level,
and then to go, oh, do we wantto keep those, what do we want
to be, and what are we going toneed to change then in order to
do that?
So, yeah, it helps teams tohave a sense of where they're at
now and then, where do we wantto get to?
And then there's this journeythat's going all the time,
that's happening througheverything we do.
(10:56):
But you can have that sense of,oh, am I behaving?
That's kind of going to make usa bit more like a tanker, or am
I really using this nextproject challenge to help us
become a bit more agile, becomea bit more of a speedboat?
It gives you a quick commonlanguage to call things out and
to build norms around that.
If we want to be a more agilespeedboat, what does that
actually require for us?
And then people go well, hangon, maybe we don't need to be
(11:17):
that fast for a speedboatbecause we also need some
stability.
So actually you can just sortof shape it the whole time,
co-create together what you wantto be, and obviously the
behaviors then kind of connectto that quite, uh, quite nicely,
but behaviors in isolation todiscuss.
I find it's often reallydifficult to do?
Colin (11:36):
yeah, they have that.
Yeah, the behaviors have toconnect.
For for when I'm um gettingteams to agree new behaviors,
I've like a little card deckthat we, that we produce and we
update it every year with whatare the new behaviors expected
of individuals in the workplace,and it has.
All of those things have toconnect to something.
You know we connect it.
I in my workshop, I'm connectedto the vision yeah, what's the
(11:57):
vision?
and what behaviors do we need todemonstrate in order to achieve
the vision, and then that theninforms the, the shared vision.
And actually, can you evenarticulate that to people?
Can they connect their?
And what behaviors do we needto demonstrate in order to
achieve the vision and then thatthen?
Cath (12:03):
informs the norms, the shared vision, and actually, can
you even articulate that topeople?
Can they connect their ownroles to that?
What do people think it is?
And often we have quite amixture of mission statements
and vision statements andpurpose statements, and you're
more particular than I am aboutwhat each one has to be.
I just want to make surethere's something that everyone
feels connected to and makessense and is about not just a
(12:25):
number of 10% growth orsomething like that.
It's actually about what's that10% growth going to enable,
what's the impact on othersoutside of your team, that
you're going to have that biggersense of why you do the jobs
that you do.
That's essential.
Colin (12:40):
Yeah, and that's true.
I'm very, very particular, butonly for the point that you made
there.
It has to make sense.
Too often what I'll see is avision statement that's like
five sentences long.
That makes no sense.
It's not memorable in the, inthe slightest, and the exercises
that I run around.
Vision it might be a good timeto share this actually is.
I'll put a good old post-itnotes on everybody's table and
(13:03):
get them to write outaspirational words that they
then use to shape a visionstatement.
I get each table to come upwith about 10 vision statements
based on these aspirationalwords and I literally move table
to table and I'll pick up wordsthat I don't believe are
aspirational and, to make apoint, I'll screw the post-it up
and throw it on the floor.
It's a sense of good fun.
I'm not treading on anyone'sideas, I'm saying no, this is
(13:25):
what.
This is kind of what we'relooking for.
So these aspirational words arevery much words, that kind of
light, a fire, that they tend tobe bigger than the
transactional words that we use.
Things like gold, you know, oneof the one of the words that I
always, you know, kind of rejectis, is anything that you can't
actually define.
So you know, people are alwayslooking to to remember the exact
(13:50):
word that I'm looking for atthe minute, but they're always
trying to.
You know, look for a goal andit's always woolly and it's
never specific enough and peopleare like, yeah, we, you know
we've got to get, oh, efficiency.
There's a word.
Anything that's more efficientis like.
What does that mean in practice?
That's not an aspirational wordmaking something more efficient
.
So people will use.
They'll come up with like 20different words and then I get
them to use the words to shapevision statements, usually no
(14:13):
more than six to eight words,because after that it's very
hard to remember a sentenceabout using post-its.
Cath (14:25):
It's very interactive, there's a lot of movement in the
room, and that's reallyimportant.
I think people always have thisoh God, here the facilitators
come.
That means we're going to haveflip charts and post-its and all
that, but it's so important andI always make a point of saying
why am I getting you to movearound?
Why am I asking you to usepost-its?
It's not for me.
I don't need post-its in mylife, although you know, perhaps
at times I might feel a bitaddicted to them.
(14:46):
I've always got a few down thebottom of my bag just in case
you turn up and there aren't anythere, and then I finally got
them with me all the time.
You know sometimes write mynotes on them, and so I think
it's about we want everyone tohave a voice in this process,
and a lot of the time, meetings,which is how most work gets
done, is really poor in terms ofengaging people, in terms of
(15:09):
getting their ideas and having avoice.
I mean, it's too slow most ofthe time for a meeting.
If everyone speaks, it's justgoing to take too long, and so
therefore, people opt out.
We don't hear their viewsbecause we haven't got time, and
so, actually, postnet isfantastic for giving everyone a
voice at the same time, and evenif there are things you don't
immediately capture and pick up,it's there, it's recorded and,
(15:30):
again, I always make a point ofbeing sure I've read everything
that's gone up, in case there'sa little gem, as there often is,
that maybe didn't get spokenaloud.
That is really helpful to movethings on or to add a different
dimension to the thinking or tochallenge the thinking.
It's much harder to say it outloud into a room than it is to
write down.
What about this?
So I love that because it givesus those checks on.
(15:53):
Oh, we're all getting a bitcarried away over here, but what
about this?
You know we want those sort ofelephants brought into the room.
So interactivity is a crucialpart of how we do everything.
I think it makes it fun as well, so that increases the
engagement, the connection.
Drawn into wanting to do somemore training on that is because
I saw it being used in othersituations as being a really
(16:30):
great tool that involveseveryone.
By the way, you don't have tolike Lego.
I personally have never playedwith Lego.
It's actually a slightlydifferent kit often, yeah, and
my kids don't even really likeit.
It's probably because I'venever really been that
enthusiastic, but I was alwaysslightly relieved.
But I actually really enjoydoing this and the way it's very
clever, the way it's sort ofset up and it helps you to
(16:50):
actually sort of go againstrules that you might think exist
about how things, how theblocks and how the different
shapes fit together, and itreally helps you to be quite
creative.
But it gives everyone a voicewithout needing to speak and
that everyone will build andeveryone a voice without needing
to speak and that everyone willbuild.
And it also is a way ofexpressing some really complex
concepts like psychologicalsafety.
What does it mean to you?
(17:15):
And putting that into a littlesomething that you build is a
really great way for everyone toexplain what it means to them,
to help them to formulate theirown thinking about a topic that
if you just rely on words, it'soften quite difficult for
everyone to kind of feelcomfortable doing that and it
sometimes becomes a bit what doyou mean by that?
What do you mean by that?
But the way people build theirmodels, and then you have to
also be able to describe whateach bit means.
(17:36):
So I've used this here and thatrepresents this, and anything
can represent anything on yourmodel.
So it's really creative.
It's very democratic.
Everybody builds and then youcan do some shared builds,
drawing on the individual buildsto create a shared model, and
so it's just been a reallylovely way of having a different
tool that can bring some quitecomplex concepts, and I saw
(17:59):
someone else using a lot forhelping people understand what a
psychological safety mean andin our workplace what's it going
to to look like and then to beworking that out together, so
that's been quite a kind ofinteresting learning for me.
I'm still feel like I'mlearning all the time how to use
it better, watching otherlittle videos of how people are
doing it, but, um, it's been areally great tool to add into my
(18:22):
toolkit.
Colin (18:23):
I've never used Lego myself.
I've been part of a workshopthat uses Lego but I imagine one
of the good things that it adds, as well as the interaction and
the noise, which is always good.
I think you know, whenever Istart a workshop, I get people
talking to each other as soon asI possibly can.
I've been to too many workshopsmyself as an employee where the
facilitator made it all aboutthemselves for the first hour.
(18:45):
It's like you know, as afacilitator, actually your job
is to help other people talk toeach other, not for them just to
listen to you.
If I'm doing a keynote speechfor an hour, then people are
paying to listen to me.
I totally get that, but as afacilitator, I'm facilitating
conversations.
But the other good thing Iimagine with Lego is color, and
(19:06):
what color does, is it reallyunlocks the brain, as well as
the exercise as well.
And again, based on my own pastexperiences, and something that
I do all of the time in myworkshops is my the slide,
because someone asked me not solong ago do you use PowerPoint?
I was like I do, but not in theway that other people use it.
There's no, there's not loadsof bullet points, it's not in
black and white.
I use colorful images.
I'll embed TED Talks in mypresentation.
(19:29):
Everything's got to be specific, everything's got to have a
point, it's got to neatly linkto the next thing.
But the use of color, I think,is crucially important because
it just unlocks something in thebrain.
Also, for anybody who's read mybooks, you'll know that at the
end of my books often the mostpopular bit is my music list,
and so I use music.
(19:49):
If you use music, Cath, I usemusic in my workshops and for my
two-day workshops people cansuggest music.
So I end up becoming partfacilitator, part DJ, part
keynote speaker.
It's exhausting, but that for me, is all part of the experience.
And, of course, by the secondhalf of the first day it's
always a little bit nervy.
(20:09):
First half of the day peopleare requesting music, people are
singing, which is great, whichis what you want, because at
that stage people are relaxed,they're comfortable, and I
imagine that's why I'm saying Iimagine the same with Lego.
Is there not a childishness?
But we unlock the inner child,where all of a sudden play
becomes a good thing.
And yes, that's a seriousbusiness of defining our culture
(20:30):
and that's the end point.
And, as facilitators, that'swhere we're taking people.
But actually, if they can getinto a mode of play or kind of
relaxed engagement, it's goingto enhance the outcome 100%.
Cath (20:41):
It's great, yeah, it's really great for that.
It's about playful learning,learning through playing.
And you're right, there'scolour, there's shapes, there's
texture, there's touch.
So you know, you're reallytapping into all of our senses
and there's a huge listeninginvolved Possibly one of the
most powerful things, because,as you're describing your model,
you're telling a story andeverybody's really engaged and
(21:05):
we often have a sort ofwhoever's speaking has this
little Lego stick and everyonewas listening to that because
also, they might.
Then, when we build the sharedmodel, they're going to go oh, I
like that, I'm going to stealthis bit and we'll put this bit
together.
And how do we?
How about we take this and thisand put them together?
And so you actually getfantastic listening because
people are telling a story.
It's easier, it's justfascinating to.
(21:33):
Oh, how creative.
So you learn, yeah, you learnso much.
It's been a really great tool.
Colin (21:36):
I'm looking forward to experimenting with more groups
with that.
For sure, and I think you knowif you can take anything from
this.
What Cath and I are talkingabout is building an experience
in and of itself that peoplewill talk about, and so I always
say the best outcome from oneof my workshops yeah, listen, we
always measure them.
I always want to see theculture improve, but if people
(21:57):
immediately go back to wherevertheir place of work is
regardless of whether it's homeor the office or the field
wherever they work the next dayand they're talking about the
experience they had, thenalready the workshop has added
something.
Somebody asked me not so longago I can't remember whether it
was an interview or podcast orsomething and they said well,
where did you get the formatfrom your workshops?
(22:19):
I said, well, it's anaccumulation of things over time
.
I was like I've done somereally, really terrible
workshops as an employee, and nofault of the facilitator.
They either misread the room,they were employed to do
something that you know wasn'trequired.
I was like but I took thatknowledge.
But I've also done some reallygreat things in 2010 with this
(22:44):
guy whose name escapes now.
His first name is Rich, he's anAmerican guy and he used music
throughout, and I'd never, ever,been to a workshop where there
was music ever in myprofessional life.
Up to that point, and eversince I used to have this book,
which I've talked about in thepast, I used to write all these
ideas down and ever since thenI've used music, and the way
(23:05):
that he used it was so dynamicand it was so great, and so
there's as much to learn frompoor experiences as there is
from good ones, but if you cancreate something that generates
a story in and of itself, thenit immediately contributes to a
change in condition.
Cath (23:19):
Yeah, that's lovely, isn't it?
And that's the thing that theseworkshops evolve all the time.
We are accruing new tools andpeople need different things in
different organizations at adifferent point of maturity, and
that's key for us, isn't it?
Is to understand where they'reat and what will help them to
move on.
And you can't just apply, youknow you've got to do this
vision thing, you've got to dothat thing next, you know,
(23:42):
actually, it's having all ofthose tools and kind of getting
a sense of this is what willhelp you next, and these are the
building blocks.
And so, yeah, I always feelevery, every workshop is unique
and that helps me to be reallypresent and focusing and
adapting all the time andthinking how else can I, can I,
you know, get more out of peopleto to really mean they, they've
got something really useful toto kind of build on and
(24:05):
hopefully also we've got morethan one go, because culture
doesn't happen in a workshop,doesn't happen in three hours or
one day, that you need to leaveenough that there are also some
clear sense of how that getscontinued and deepened and
strengthened and built on allthe time.
Colin (24:19):
Yeah, I think, possibly a good place to end.
This is a good reminder that,whatever exercises that you
undertake to strengthen yourculture, remember you're only
building the foundations.
That's all you're building.
You're building the foundationsand then it's up to the team to
start building on top of thoseand, yes, you might see an
immediate jump in engagement andproductivity.
(24:40):
Often I do, but it's the longtail of activity that really
generates that sense oftogetherness, connectedness,
belonging, and that's whereyou'll see the gains over the
long term.
And so, for Cath and I and Ihope you've enjoyed today, I've
enjoyed talking about it is ourjob is to help you to build
those foundations, and you cando likewise.
Cath (24:59):
Yeah, I do know.
I'm really struck.
That reminds me of all the sortof sporting examples where
actually you don't have fancyworkshops, Maybe you get
together a little bit at thebeginning.
But it is so fundamental.
How do we want to turn up dayin, day out, on the really
difficult days, on the days welose a match?
How are we going to show up inthose moments and holding
ourselves to that?
It's all about the livedculture and the workshops, as
(25:19):
you say, they set you up, theygive you a little extra momentum
, some clarity, bringing peopletogether, setting off.
So we're on the same track.
But it's then.
What happens the next day isabsolutely critical and I often
think people put less into that.
That's sort of the biggerproblem with training more
generally, leadershipdevelopment and culture and all
(25:40):
of these elements, that it's allabout the content on the day,
the content of the program, butit's not.
It's all about the translationof that workshop into your
workplace.
So that's really critical and Ikeep thinking that's where the
learning development world isgoing to move more.
It needs to for it to be reallyimpactful and make sense.
But you know, therefore, youwant more of a coaching approach
(26:01):
and you want people to be ableto go into the workplace
afterwards to help some of thattranslation as well.
So, yeah, there's a lot to makesure people are thinking about
not just what can I get in oneworkshop and then have finished
it, but actually how does thisthen connect into everyday life
and the infinite game?
Colin (26:18):
of building culture.
So culture, as I always say,cultures evolve over time.
They don't change in two days.
Well, Cath, it's been reallyinteresting to talk about some
of the work that we do.
I hope others take somethingfrom them.
Cath (26:30):
Great to chat, as always.
Thanks very much.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out Culture.
Colin (26:36):
Podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested.
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