July 18, 2024 • 32 mins
The summer of 2024 has a plethora of large-scale sporting events. From the Tour de France in cycling, to the European Championships and Copa America in football, to the Olympics in Paris to name but a few!
Sporting teams and individuals will be looking to excel, so, on this week’s episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast, we are outlining what people should look out for - from a culture perspective - and talking about the conditions for sporting success!
Regardless of whether you're interested in sport or not, this episode will provide crucial insights into what ‘good culture' looks like.
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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.
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Email your questions to: insideoutculture@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colin (00:02):
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Hello everybody and welcome toanother episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast and, as it'ssummer, as we're recording this
in 2024, we are talking aboutwhat to look out for in a summer
of sport, and there's plentygoing on, Cath, at the minute.
Cath (00:49):
My goodness, there is a lot, and actually we have quite
a few conversations off the mic.
So in between some of thepodcasts we've recorded, we've
been discussing oh did younotice this, coach?
Did you see this happening insport?
And so we decided actuallythere's so much, there's so much
richness that we'd actuallycreate an episode around the
summer of sports.
So we've got Wimbledon, we'rein the middle of the Euros and
(01:10):
we've got the Olympics and theParalympics coming up, Probably
a few other things tucked inaround the world as well.
And what we wanted to do inthis episode is sort of look
behind what immediately getsshown on the TV to think about
what else might we want to lookout for?
What can we learn?
I'm always really avidlywaiting for the interviews after
(01:33):
events to kind of find out moreabout what's going on inside a
team.
I'm often sort of looking forthe bits around the edges that
don't get reported as much, tothink about what's going on
culturally.
What are you looking forward toor what are you kind of
watching at the moment?
Colin (01:46):
Oh my God, I'm the same.
I'm a team dynamic nerd.
I always find myself onWhatsApp groups, particularly
with my brothers, kind ofdefending decisions that have
been made.
I know we're in the middle ofthe Euros.
We'll talk about England'slatest performance, which was
pretty underwhelming yesterdayand, you know, during the group
stages they weren't that great,and I would say it's about
(02:08):
getting through.
It's not about the bestperformance, it's about the
performance you need to getthrough the group, and so I'm
always looking for interviews,what people say.
I'm looking at body language onthe pitch, which is something
I'm fascinated by.
So anything related to cultureand what it does is it enhances
(02:29):
my enjoyment of the sport unlessI'm watching Everton and my
football team, because nothingenhances the enjoyment of that.
So, yeah, so I mean let's startwith England.
So if you're not familiar withit, we won't go into too much
detail about particular results.
But England, every tournament,carry the weight of the nation
on their shoulders.
There's an expectation, becausethey have good young players,
(02:51):
that they're going to win stuffand they got through their group
.
But they really haven't playedthat well, but that's fine.
Their job is to get out of thegroup.
And then there was the firstknockout game last night.
So it was the last day of Juneand they were pretty poor.
And then they equalized rightat the day to send the game into
extra time, and then they won't.
So I'm, Cath, I'm you watchedit right?
(03:13):
I'm assuming the family isgathered around the table?
Cath (03:17):
totally.
I mean, I think you know anyone, uh sort of more people watch
the, the euros or the world cup,don't they?
Then they necessarily supportthe, the kind of premier league
and we know a lot of peoplewatch premier league as well.
But it's something differentwhen it's your nation, isn't it?
And I'm a big fan of garethsouthgate.
I think he's done an amazingjob.
I think he's a very enlightenedleader.
I think he's very good atshaping culture.
(03:38):
You can see he's really underpressure.
So there's something about thistournament that has seen the
brilliant individuals yet tokind of click as a team.
I feel really disappointed bythe really negative kind of
media and commentary that arejust slating him and, to some
extent, slating some of thefootballers as well, and for me
I think it's really fascinating.
(03:58):
What is it that makes aparticular group of brilliant
individuals click in thiscircumstance and not in this
circumstance?
What are the things?
There are so manyuncontrollables around a team
just because of the individuals.
What's happened to them throughthe year?
What's happened to them intheir career, their own personal
circumstances, therelationships within the group,
when, of course, it's alwayschanging Every tournament.
(04:20):
You've got some older playersand some younger ones coming in.
So it's an ever-changingdynamic and for me I'm
fascinated.
So, rather than just startwriting the obituary of Gareth
Southgate, I'm thinking, wow,isn't this interesting?
We know he's a really skilledleader.
We know he's delivered the bestresults we've had in my
lifetime.
So that's half a century andhe's struggling.
(04:41):
Isn't that interesting?
It shows you how difficult thisis.
It shows you how complex thealchemy is of getting a team to
click.
What are the things that aren'tworking?
And you know, certainly I thinkone of the things he did bring
in was a certain freedom thatprevious teams you know the
great individuals in the Beckhamera you know they never
delivered as a team and theyseem to play under fear.
Under fear.
(05:05):
And one of the things that feltGareth Southgate freed them up
in the recent tournaments.
When last time around they gotto the finals of the Euros,
quarterfinals of the World Cup Ithink the semifinals was it.
Before that was, he seemed togive them a freedom and now
they've lost that again andpartly, I think that is raised
expectations because they'vedone so well under him.
But for me that's justfascinating, isn't it?
Because what can he do tocreate, on this pressure
cauldron, a way of helping them.
(05:26):
Just, you know, come togetherand thrive.
I was really struck by sort ofJulian Nagelsmann, the German
coach, who's also fairly new inThere've been some question
marks over where the German teamhave been for some years and he
said you know, 30% of coachingis tactics, 70% is social
competence, and so that's whatwe're watching and we know
that's complex, just as it'scomplex in all the organisations
(05:49):
and workplaces we're in.
So I really get tired of thequite hypocritical,
uber-critical sort of medianarrative.
That's a bit outdated and Ijust want to be curious about
what's going on.
They obviously want to do well,they're obviously very
impressive footballers at anincredible level, and yet isn't
it difficult?
Colin (06:07):
Yeah, it is.
I think let's just park theEnglish media to one side.
English media when you're bad,they hate you and when you're
good they love you.
There's just no middle ground,and it's funny.
I'm in the process of movingback to the UK and I'm not used
to the adversarial nature of themedia, or I'm sorry, I've
(06:27):
forgotten what it was likeliving in australia.
It's just not like this at all,and so I think the media will
see it as their job to pokeholes in in coaches that don't
achieve, particularly whenthey've got a group of young
players.
I don't know much about garethsouthgate.
I don't know him.
I I I know from people who doknow him that he's a lovely
fella.
I know that he puts a lot oftime, thought and effort into
(06:49):
culture, so for that he has myrespect.
I think what I've noticed as afan and also as an observer of
team culture is that hisdecision making perhaps wasn't
as quick as it should have been.
So yesterday was a case inpoint.
I think if I was managing a teamand we were underperforming,
you know and I always liken itback when I used to manage
(07:11):
projects is we had a deadline tohit and we absolutely had to
hit that deadline is.
You know, sometimes you have tomake the tough decisions, you
know, and I remember replacingpersonnel on projects because
they just weren't delivering,and that's what that's all I
felt watching the game yesterday.
I felt that he had theopportunity to change it, and I
know he's a person that puts, helikes to give players the
(07:31):
responsibility to respond and,and let's face it, he was saved
by a moment of brilliance by oneof england's best players in in
um jude bellingham, and so I Ithink that was think that would
be my only, not criticism, butmy only, I suppose, observation
is that he could have changed itearlier, and so I think some of
(07:55):
the criticism that he'sreceived for that is warranted.
I mean, you know, the Englishmedia like to go on the attack
regardless.
Cath (08:01):
I think he simply can't win because if the results were
great, they go oh so good.
He trusts the players, that'sright.
He gives the team time to kindof get into the game.
You know he doesn't mess themaround and then when it isn't
working, so you've got to changeit, got to change it.
I mean he said himself he wasthinking of taking Drew
Bellingham off.
Last kind of brilliant Bicelkick, life-saving goal.
(08:23):
So it's such tiny margins.
I think that the criticismsuggests there is a right and a
wrong and with so many variablesout on the pitch and literally
a split second changes things, Imean that's what makes the game
interesting, that's why it'ssport.
Otherwise we'd be able topredict they're a better team
and so therefore they will win.
It's because of thatunpredictability that it's so
(08:44):
compelling and yet all the timewe seem to be wanting to say, oh
, that shouldn't be the case.
We should be able to deliver X,y, z.
So I think that the sort ofcommentary and the criticism is
it just doesn't really takeaccount sometimes of the tiny
margins, of what makes a teamnot work is also what can make
them brilliant.
And it's just such a tiny shift, a tiny click In a game where
(09:10):
essentially it's a low scoringgame.
It's only one moment that couldsuddenly shift things, or a
couple of moments because of theway football is set up.
It gives the underdog a chance,it makes it quite difficult to
dominate and we are at a levelwhere all these teams are really
good.
They're playing for theircountries and we've actually
seen Germany struggle in games.
(09:32):
We've seen France struggle ingames.
Colin (09:34):
There's no sort of acknowledgement.
Cath (09:38):
Yeah, italy who won last time.
So that also seems kind of oddto me.
We should be celebrating, isn'tit?
How brilliant?
It's such close margins.
We're seeing the best at thetop.
Isn't it interesting how tightit is, how unpredictable it is?
That's why it's so compelling,and yet that narrative just
isn't played.
There's some human right thatEngland should be winning.
They should be better, and ifthey're not, you know, I really
(10:01):
get tired of commentary, reallystruggle with it, because I
think it spoils the beauty ofwhat sport represents and it
also stops us from gettingcurious about what is going on.
Why is it so difficult forpeople we know are brilliant to
actually deliver in this moment?
That's the beauty of elitesport is this kind of you're
(10:21):
right on the edge of trying todo something against incredibly
high standard, and we're goingto see the same thing in the
Olympics and Paralympics.
It's tiny margins.
Colin (10:30):
So that's our group therapy session for last night's
England performance.
Cath (10:35):
Yeah.
Colin (10:36):
I want to talk about.
I read a paper by Cruikshanksand Collins called Culture
Change in Elite Performance, andso it's specifically related to
sports.
And again, you know, what we'retrying to do here with this
particular podcast is generatesome curiosity around kind of
culture.
We're not trying to spoil itfor you, by the way, all of a
sudden you're going.
Well, he didn't celebrate thegoal, what does that say for
(10:57):
culture?
But here's some things thatCruikshanks and Collins found in
their paper.
Right, and they found thathigh-performing cultures prevail
when the shared perception andaction of elite team environment
members, and there's these fourthings.
So support sorry, support tosustain optimal performance
persists across time in the faceof variable results and you
(11:21):
know that's what Cath wastalking about there with regards
to the England team and leadsto consistent high performance
Actually, it's three points, notfour, sorry.
Leads to consistent highperformance.
And so, when I read the paper,the nature of high performance
is, it's evolutionary.
However, what you need to do isto create something that
supports sustained optimalperformance.
(11:43):
So this is the foundationalnature of culture.
Now, one of the best examplesfor me recently was the Ryder
Cup, and the Ryder Cup, ifyou're not familiar with it, is
golf, and so they did a lot ofwork.
Luke Donald was the Ryder Cup,and the Ryder Cup, if you're not
familiar with it, is golf, andso they did a lot of work.
Luke Donald was the captain andthey did a lot of work around
culture before the tournament,and they attribute it to the
success against the Americanteam.
(12:06):
I read a really great interviewwith Rory McIlroy, who's one of
Europe's best golfers, and hetalked about the fact that the
team was one of the best he'sever played on, even though golf
is quite an individual sport.
Yes, you're paired with otherpeople, but it's quite
individual.
And he said one of the bestbits of it.
He said it was such a laughwith the other players.
(12:27):
He said every night they usedto have a dad joke left on the
pillow and then they had to comeand share their dad joke the
next morning or whenever it was.
And he gave an example of one.
If you're an american in theliving room, what are you in the
bathroom?
And the answer is european,european, european.
And so he said it's littlethings, you know it's a dad joke
(12:48):
, he said, but it's littlethings like that.
That all helped to build theteam spirit.
Now, cathy, you're someonewho's performed in elite
performance, obviously at theOlympics, so I'm really
interested in kind of your takeon what you've seen.
Has it changed over the years?
I mean, we were talking justoff camera about the way that
medal winners are treateddifferently, so I think they'd
(13:10):
be great stories to share withlisteners.
Cath (13:13):
Yeah, so one of the interesting things about, uh,
luke donald and and thateuropean rider cup team is they
work with owen eastwood, who isa brilliant performance coach,
who puts huge and who garethsouthgate and england team
formerly worked with, and, uh,his whole approach is one of
connection between athletes on ateam and connecting them all to
(13:33):
a greater purpose, like beyondwinning.
Why does winning matter?
What does it represent?
And actually, going brieflyback to the England team, what I
read the other day is theydon't have a psychologist with
them and they work withinspirational people from Pippa
Grange to Owen Eastwood, and soI'm also thinking, hang on,
there's been a really powerfulpart of the recipe that feels
(13:54):
like it hasn't been invested inmuch, and I do wonder if that is
part of what's going on.
And that approach is aboutbeing part of a story as well,
and that's how Southgate wasstarting to reframe what it
meant to play for England andtherefore free the players up,
which, again, we're not seeing.
And what Luke Donald was ableto do is to create the
conditions for these individualsto now feel part of a team.
(14:15):
What does it mean?
There's actually a beautifulYouTube video.
It's just three minutes.
We'll put the link to it, whereLuke Donald takes you around
the behind the scenes, how it'sset up for them.
There's nothing about winning.
On the walls there are picturesof shared moments when they've
come together in practice onprevious occasions, in previous
Ryder Cup's European teammoments.
(14:35):
So it's all of a team huggingat the end or a couple of
players playing together andthey have these pictures of Seve
Ballesteros, who's a bit of ahero, and their representation
of what it means to be a RyderCup player and have a wall with
all the people who've everplayed for the European Ryder
Cup.
That you're coming into this.
So it's creating that sense ofwhat you come into and that is
(14:56):
now something that, across sport, lots of teams start to do.
There's this you know, when theathletes went to collect their
team kit Adidas and you go.
Now that's a big event we usedto sort of turn up and use.
You know, in a warehouse, pickup your kit, you get like
literally a couple of suitcasesfull of t-shirts and your
opening ceremony uniform, yourclosing ceremony uniform and
(15:17):
your shorts and underwear andthe top and a vest top and a bra
top and you know you name itlots of stuff.
It's a lovely part, it's a realprivilege.
But now they've turned thatinto a really special moment.
So the athletes go and they goon a journey and the walls you
know, we were just in awarehouse nothing really on the
walls, maybe a couple of postersor something.
(15:37):
But now it's.
You're part of this story andthey have sort of athletes from
the past.
You know you're part of what'sgoing to happen next and then
there'll be a story kind ofbeyond you.
So you feel that you're part ofthis ongoing story of Team GB
and you're going to have yourmoment to play your contribution
.
But you're not just an athleteon your own now.
You're part of something biggerand that's something that's
(15:58):
been built out each time by theBritish Olympic Association,
working with all of the sportsto try and make it as somewhere
you feel at home, somewhere youfeel you belong.
So they always get into theOlympic Village ahead of the
athletes arriving andtroubleshoot.
They take their own team ofplumbers when they're in Rio.
What might the problems be?
Bed quality, bed mattresses,size of mattresses for your
(16:22):
rowers and your basketballplayers.
They think of all of theseissues that come up in the past
and they get in there ahead oftime and sort them out.
In fact there was a problemwith plumbing in Rio.
The Brits had sorted theirstuff out and the Australians
actually had to go and stay inhotels for a few days before
they could come into the village.
I mean, that's just disruptionand at a time of immense
pressure you want to minimisethose disruptions that can
(16:44):
really throw you off when you'vegot enough nerves kind of
flooded around the system.
So there is a much greateremphasis on trying to create an
experience in which an athleteis most likely to be able to go
out there and give theirabsolute best performance and
feel part of something biggerthan themselves.
You know, within each sportsthen there are, you know,
sometimes there's a kind ofshared team feeling as well.
(17:06):
You know the rowing team willdo their thing and you know you
sort of connect.
It looks a little bit differentthan different teams and one of
the things that I hated that Ihope they don't do anymore.
You know you sort of connect.
It looks a little bit differentthan different teams and one of
the things that I hated that Ihope they don't do anymore.
In fact they won't do this year, because no one's getting on a
plane, they're getting on theEurostar was.
We used to have this thing thatyou'll go out together sort of
on the plane, you know, justmixed up, and then you come back
(17:28):
the medalists are in the firstclass and all the rest are in
the back, and that's a real sortof sense, somehow, of being
devalued.
I think Of course we celebratethe medal winners.
They've done brilliantly.
But, you know, sometimesthere's incredible performances
that are done by other peoplewho are in an event where the
world record is broken or wherethey've overcome some incredible
adversity and they've actuallyperformed out of their skins and
(17:48):
somehow we just sort of devaluethat because it didn't come
with the medal.
You know, and actually when youarrive then at Heathrow one of
the things you don't see on TVbut if you sort of zoomed back
behind the cameras, the camerasare sort of at the front step
seeing the medalist come off andthey take a picture.
Meanwhile the rest of the planeis kind of coming out the back
steps and then walking behindthe journalist taking those
(18:09):
photos, feeling a bit kind oflike nobody cares about us.
You know, it doesn't matter,we've failed and I think we
don't need to.
You know, we don't need to sortof add that into rub, sort of
rub salt into people's wounds.
Of course you know the wholesystem is set up, but not
everybody got a medal.
You know what we want is tocelebrate the story, celebrate
everyone who's had you knowtheir best performance and you
(18:32):
know what Luck plays a role inthis.
Luck will fall well for someand less for others.
There will be so many externalfactors you can't control and
invent.
That's what makes sports sointeresting.
So I think it's important thatwe don't have a sense of you
personally are worth more as ahuman being because you won a
medal and you didn't.
The strategy has shifted totalking about winning well
(18:52):
rather than just winning.
We don't want winning at allcosts, but there's still a lot
of murkiness about what thatreally means and there's still a
lot of funding decisions thatare made on the basis of medals.
So I think sports are stillreally trying to find its way.
What I think we should belooking for is the broader
stories this summer in theOlympics.
So look at actually whatathletes have gone through to
(19:13):
get to where they are and youknow what does.
What's the story they're goingto leave with from this, uh,
from this olympics andparalympics.
Not just the medal.
There's actually a human storybehind it.
Colin (19:24):
We can often learn a lot more for from yeah, I, I was
fortunate enough to meet and andlisten to uh arson venga, the
former manager, arsenal manager,speak a few weeks ago actually,
and he and he talked about theimportance of creating and
instilling in a team aperformance culture.
And he strikes me as someonewho's always been ahead of his
(19:48):
time.
You know, he fundamentallychanged English football with
his real focus on diet andplaying style and fitness, you
know.
And he said back then he said Iwas able to influence players,
I was able to influence the clubas a whole.
He said, but it's not like that, so it's up to me to change,
not to expect the world tochange around me.
(20:09):
And he said, you know,performance culture for him is
one where the players turn upwith their own story, share that
and then ask, well, how can Iget better with the people
around me, how can I achieve myfull potential and what changes
do I need to make to get there?
And so he, you know he outlinedthat in his book, his book, his
(20:30):
biography, my life in in redand white, and he shared that
and I and I really like thatdistinction.
You know, staying with football,manchester United were one of
the, you know, kind of the mostsuccessful football teams in
recent memory.
And you know Alex Ferguson hada very you know United player.
Talk about him.
He said he was highlyemotionally intelligent.
(20:51):
You know he really took thetime to build a relationship
with players.
And Steve McLaren, theex-assistant manager, you know
he said in an interview.
He said at some clubs you getplayers who think they've made
(21:11):
it either because of a bigtransfer fee or they're highly
talented, he said.
But at Manchester United hesaid the manager and the other
players would not stand for thatand I think that for me, is
what a kind of high performancekind of looks like.
And you see this play out.
You know the Chicago Bulls alsoa great example.
But you know that really stemmedfrom the manager who's written
(21:36):
a great book called 11 Rings,phil Jackson, and every year he
used to build the culture of theteam.
First he used to buy eachplayer a book that he thought
they would enjoy and then theyall had to come back and talk
about what they learned from thebook.
And the team set their ownprinciples, but individually
they had to be good, but alsothey had to work well as a team
(21:57):
as well.
And and that's something thatyou saw on the court.
That's something you see on thepitch, where you don't need
just one captain.
You need a team of captains whotake responsibility at the
right time.
Cath (22:09):
you can't have everyone as captain at the same time I like
the that sense of focusing inon that character piece, on who
are we as people, and for me, Ijust find that fascinating.
You know, particularly whenathletes are, you know when the
competition isn't going theirway, and you know.
Same for the England team.
I'm fascinated.
How do they manage that?
What are they thinking?
(22:29):
What do they go back to?
What behaviors come out at thatpoint?
I mean, one of the sort ofinteresting developing stories
from the Euros is the Spanishteam, who seemed to be firing on
all cylinders Really impressive.
So you know, again, I'mthinking, oh, what's going on
there.
And a colleague and consultantin the culture space, jamie
McPherson, a friend of mine.
He was sort of been doing someresearch about Luis de la Fuente
(22:52):
, who's the coach of the Spanishteam, and he, interestingly,
hasn't managed a big club buthas come up managing the juniors
, the under-19s team that won in2015, the under-21s that won in
2019.
So he knows a lot of theseplayers really well and he has a
really clear philosophy.
And his philosophy is that aplayer's character and values
(23:14):
are as important as form andtalent.
And he says what surprises meis that it seems exceptional,
something that we shouldconsider as natural.
I prefer to work with goodpeople, of course, great
professionals, but also goodpeople.
He talks about this, that hewants a great group of people, a
great human group, so I lovethis plays to my approach to
(23:36):
focusing much more holisticallyon how sport is a mechanism for
developing who we are togetherrather than a mechanism purely
for winning a medal.
Only one team can do that, butactually all of the teams can
explore collectively whatthey're capable of and test
themselves under pressure, andthat's the beauty of the setting
.
And so I think having a coachlike that sounds really quite
(23:56):
inspirational, and I think it'sbeen impressive to see the
impact of that.
I mean, interestingly, southgatestarted off with that coming
out of doing very well withjunior teams as well, and that
created some continuity and asense of a common culture that
these players were meeting at ayounger age, and so you know
what it means to be part of theEngland team or, in this case,
with Luis de la Fuente.
(24:17):
You know what it means to bepart of the England team.
Or, in this case, with Luis dela Fuente, you know what it
means to be part of the Spanishteam, and I think I do think
that's so powerful.
But it's not something you cansort of suddenly fix, like if
something isn't going well andagain you can't sort of in two
days sort of suddenly changethat.
And you know that's thechallenge, that culture is an
infinite project, or I'm notsure project's the right word.
It's infinitely evolving, as weoften talk about, and then it's
(24:39):
put into this finite competitivesituation and of course that's
the challenge, isn't it?
To sort of, oh well, ifsomething isn't right in the
culture, I can't necessarilychange it.
We have to think sort of longerterm.
So I think it's attracting somedifferent coaching talent now
into it, more thoughtful peoplelike Arsene Wenger, like Gareth
Southgate, like Luis de laFuente.
And I think that also couldapply into our workplaces, where
(25:02):
we might think about how are wedeveloping people in the
workplace?
Who are we becoming in thecourse of delivering this
month's targets or this annualgoal that we've been set?
And I encourage leaders andmanagers to see that
responsibility and opportunityto help people become better
versions of themselves in thecourse of being part of your
team and pursuing the goals thatyou're pursuing, because I
(25:24):
think that's where we humanizethe cultures we're in, that's
where it gets really.
You know, there's a biggerprize, a bigger opportunity, a
bigger experience we can haveand create in the environments
that we're in experience we canhave and create in the
environments that we're in.
Colin (25:40):
And I think it's important to remember all of the
research.
All of the research so Anderson2011, cranenberg 2005, cuesta
de Mduda, 2010,.
All points to the fact thatdefined group culture
significantly shapes membercognition, member behavior,
member development, memberwell-being and member
performance.
And, as Cath rightly says, ifit's going wrong, you can't just
(26:00):
be like right, let's just bringeveryone together.
You know, one of the classicmistakes often that I read about
is when players go on these SAStraining camps and we think
that that will immediatelychange performance.
Now, those things only help whenthe culture has already been
defined.
They don't actually define theculture in and of itself.
And this is why, kind of youknow, luke Donald, prior to the
(26:22):
Ryder Cup, brought the teamtogether.
Pre-season is the perfectopportunity for football teams
or, you know, baseball teams.
Whatever your sport is, it'sthe perfect time to define
culture, just like Phil Jacksondid for the Chicago Bulls and
the LA Lakers.
So you can't immediately fix it, but what you can do is create
the foundations ahead of timesuch that, when you need it, you
(26:47):
can refer people back to whatthe agreement was, such that you
generate that accountabilityall over again.
Cath (26:50):
I think this is going to be really interesting with the
Olympics this summer.
We've got some really newevents coming, or some events
have just been in one Olympicsand they're still sort of
evolving.
So you get some events thathave been in literally centuries
and now we've got breaking,we've got skateboarding, we've
got sport climbing, we've gotsurfing.
That's actually out in Tahiti,in French Polynesia, and I think
(27:10):
they often have quite differentcultures from the more
traditional sports that havebeen in for decades or centuries
and I find that interesting towatch, to think also, you know,
from one sport to another, howdoes the culture shift because
of the history, because of youknow the sort of traditions you
might bring?
And these are sports thathaven't been shaped by being
(27:31):
part of the Olympics, that oftenhave not been shaped by winning
medals at all.
You see that with the WinterOlympics, some of those kind of
the crazy, you know, extreme,the ones where they're doing
tricks and all of that I can'tremember what they're called now
and some of those sort of whatis it?
Skiboarding oh, my goodness,I've lost it Snowboarding,
snowboarding.
Colin (27:50):
That's it.
Cath (27:52):
You can tell I'm not a winter sports person.
You can sort of see how theycome from a culture where, like,
taking a risk is what the sportis about, and it's better to
have a go at something that'snever been done before and risk
winning the medal.
It's better, though, to do that.
That's what the sport is about,and they're cheering each other
on and they're going wow, it'samazing, you attempted that,
whether you land it or not, andit'd be interesting to see over
(28:13):
time whether that sort of shifts, whether the medals, start to
kind of creep in on theirculture.
But I often find some of thosenewer, younger sports have a
really healthy perspective.
I was listening recently to SkyBrown, the kind of incredible
British skateboarder who won amedal in Tokyo, and they were
involved in qualifying.
She'd actually qualified and hada bit of an injury she was
managing recently, but she wentto do a competition to help her
(28:36):
friend who's competing for Japanto qualify, because she wanted
to make sure her friend wasthere, and I thought it was so
interesting because it goesagainst this whole narrative of
my goodness, you're helpinganother country, what is going
on?
But she's her friend, theytrain together, and I love that
sometimes this sort of spirit ofyou know, actually we are part
of something bigger, the sportthat we do, that's bigger and
that lasts well beyond.
(28:57):
You know that community isthere.
For me, the rest of my life.
That lasts beyond three minuteson the podium.
Sure, we want to compete forthat, we're happy to do that,
we're competitive animals, butactually it's the community and
the shared endeavor that comesfirst.
So I think that's a reallyinteresting thing to look out
for with some of these newsports.
How does the culture differfrom some of the more
traditional ones?
Colin (29:17):
So, again, it's another podcast where I feel like I just
keep talking.
One final thing I will mention,because one of my friends once
bemoaned the fact that he waswatching a cricket match and he
said why do they slap handsafter every delivery?
Why is it high five after everydelivery?
And that's an example of howthe culture has shifted.
Same with tennis, you know,when you see the doubles, they,
(29:38):
you know, slap hands low five,whatever you want to call it.
Again, all of these littledynamics, it's a real sign of
how culture has really changedand a demonstration and Cath
mentioned it just now of justhow important connection is to
the younger athletes, theyounger sports.
People have been brought up toexpect different, and so it how
important connection is to theyounger athletes, the younger
sports.
Uh, people have been brought upto expect different, uh, and so
(30:00):
it's fascinating.
Cath (30:01):
So let's talk about the there was some research I think
it was in beach volleyball,could have been basketball and I
think it was beach volleyballwhere they again they, they kind
of clap hands in between andthey, they looked at the results
of how often people were sortof high-fiving and connecting
and how they didperformance-wise and the teams
that had greater connection,more hand slaps, did better.
Colin (30:24):
Wow okay, I'm gonna get we'll.
Cath (30:26):
We will dig them yeah, we'll try and look that out.
Colin (30:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah because that would be a really good one
to share.
All right, what are our threetakeaways, kat?
Cath (30:33):
So, yeah, actions, so it's a lovely one.
Listen, observe, listencarefully to what the athletes
and the teams talk about beyondthe result.
Yeah, so they're going to go.
Yeah, we're happy we won orwe're disappointed we didn't win
.
But then listen to what comesnext.
Listen carefully to what theytalk about, because that gives
you a sense of they really valueand their character and how
(30:55):
they're approaching it.
Colin (30:56):
All right, so one thing to get curious about is look
beyond the result.
What do you notice about theteam dynamics?
Who's celebrating with who?
How are they hand slapping?
What are you seeing around thepersonalities?
I always look out for thoselittle interactions.
How are people motivating eachother?
How are they holding each otherto account?
(31:17):
What do you notice about theculture from what you see in
front of you?
And then, lastly, Cath, whatshould we want people to uncover
?
Cath (31:24):
Yeah, so I mean building on that further.
Yeah, what are the ways inwhich athletes and sports teams
have developed their norms thatare underpinning their
performance?
So what can you notice?
What can you sort of uncoverreading between the lines, or
listening between what they sayin interviews and things about
how have they got to this placewhere they're able to bring
their best performance underpressure.
(31:46):
So what have they done to dothat?
Because often they will tellyou that, but it might not be
the thing the journalist or theinterview is focusing on but
uncover the ways in whichathletes and sports teams have
developed behavioural norms,values that underpin performance
.
Colin (31:59):
So what we've just done there is ruin sport for
everybody.
Cath (32:02):
So when they were just We've deepened it, we've
deepened your experience, we'veenriched this summer of a sport.
Colin (32:08):
Yes, we have it's official.
Cath (32:09):
You can spend time watching and studying it.
Colin (32:12):
So get your notebooks out for England's next game, as
well as your scarf.
All right, Cath, great to talkabout this fabulous subject.
Thank you.
Cath (32:19):
Brilliant Cheers.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out.
Colin (32:24):
Culture Podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested.
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Hello everybody and welcome toanother episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast and, as it'ssummer, as we're recording this
in 2024, we are talking aboutwhat to look out for in a summer
of sport, and there's plentygoing on, Cath, at the minute.
Cath (00:49):
My goodness, there is a lot, and actually we have quite
a few conversations off the mic.
So in between some of thepodcasts we've recorded, we've
been discussing oh did younotice this, coach?
Did you see this happening insport?
And so we decided actuallythere's so much, there's so much
richness that we'd actuallycreate an episode around the
summer of sports.
So we've got Wimbledon, we'rein the middle of the Euros and
(01:10):
we've got the Olympics and theParalympics coming up, Probably
a few other things tucked inaround the world as well.
And what we wanted to do inthis episode is sort of look
behind what immediately getsshown on the TV to think about
what else might we want to lookout for?
What can we learn?
I'm always really avidlywaiting for the interviews after
(01:33):
events to kind of find out moreabout what's going on inside a
team.
I'm often sort of looking forthe bits around the edges that
don't get reported as much, tothink about what's going on
culturally.
What are you looking forward toor what are you kind of
watching at the moment?
Colin (01:46):
Oh my God, I'm the same.
I'm a team dynamic nerd.
I always find myself onWhatsApp groups, particularly
with my brothers, kind ofdefending decisions that have
been made.
I know we're in the middle ofthe Euros.
We'll talk about England'slatest performance, which was
pretty underwhelming yesterdayand, you know, during the group
stages they weren't that great,and I would say it's about
(02:08):
getting through.
It's not about the bestperformance, it's about the
performance you need to getthrough the group, and so I'm
always looking for interviews,what people say.
I'm looking at body language onthe pitch, which is something
I'm fascinated by.
So anything related to cultureand what it does is it enhances
(02:29):
my enjoyment of the sport unlessI'm watching Everton and my
football team, because nothingenhances the enjoyment of that.
So, yeah, so I mean let's startwith England.
So if you're not familiar withit, we won't go into too much
detail about particular results.
But England, every tournament,carry the weight of the nation
on their shoulders.
There's an expectation, becausethey have good young players,
(02:51):
that they're going to win stuffand they got through their group
.
But they really haven't playedthat well, but that's fine.
Their job is to get out of thegroup.
And then there was the firstknockout game last night.
So it was the last day of Juneand they were pretty poor.
And then they equalized rightat the day to send the game into
extra time, and then they won't.
So I'm, Cath, I'm you watchedit right?
(03:13):
I'm assuming the family isgathered around the table?
Cath (03:17):
totally.
I mean, I think you know anyone, uh sort of more people watch
the, the euros or the world cup,don't they?
Then they necessarily supportthe, the kind of premier league
and we know a lot of peoplewatch premier league as well.
But it's something differentwhen it's your nation, isn't it?
And I'm a big fan of garethsouthgate.
I think he's done an amazingjob.
I think he's a very enlightenedleader.
I think he's very good atshaping culture.
(03:38):
You can see he's really underpressure.
So there's something about thistournament that has seen the
brilliant individuals yet tokind of click as a team.
I feel really disappointed bythe really negative kind of
media and commentary that arejust slating him and, to some
extent, slating some of thefootballers as well, and for me
I think it's really fascinating.
(03:58):
What is it that makes aparticular group of brilliant
individuals click in thiscircumstance and not in this
circumstance?
What are the things?
There are so manyuncontrollables around a team
just because of the individuals.
What's happened to them throughthe year?
What's happened to them intheir career, their own personal
circumstances, therelationships within the group,
when, of course, it's alwayschanging Every tournament.
(04:20):
You've got some older playersand some younger ones coming in.
So it's an ever-changingdynamic and for me I'm
fascinated.
So, rather than just startwriting the obituary of Gareth
Southgate, I'm thinking, wow,isn't this interesting?
We know he's a really skilledleader.
We know he's delivered the bestresults we've had in my
lifetime.
So that's half a century andhe's struggling.
(04:41):
Isn't that interesting?
It shows you how difficult thisis.
It shows you how complex thealchemy is of getting a team to
click.
What are the things that aren'tworking?
And you know, certainly I thinkone of the things he did bring
in was a certain freedom thatprevious teams you know the
great individuals in the Beckhamera you know they never
delivered as a team and theyseem to play under fear.
Under fear.
(05:05):
And one of the things that feltGareth Southgate freed them up
in the recent tournaments.
When last time around they gotto the finals of the Euros,
quarterfinals of the World Cup Ithink the semifinals was it.
Before that was, he seemed togive them a freedom and now
they've lost that again andpartly, I think that is raised
expectations because they'vedone so well under him.
But for me that's justfascinating, isn't it?
Because what can he do tocreate, on this pressure
cauldron, a way of helping them.
(05:26):
Just, you know, come togetherand thrive.
I was really struck by sort ofJulian Nagelsmann, the German
coach, who's also fairly new inThere've been some question
marks over where the German teamhave been for some years and he
said you know, 30% of coachingis tactics, 70% is social
competence, and so that's whatwe're watching and we know
that's complex, just as it'scomplex in all the organisations
(05:49):
and workplaces we're in.
So I really get tired of thequite hypocritical,
uber-critical sort of medianarrative.
That's a bit outdated and Ijust want to be curious about
what's going on.
They obviously want to do well,they're obviously very
impressive footballers at anincredible level, and yet isn't
it difficult?
Colin (06:07):
Yeah, it is.
I think let's just park theEnglish media to one side.
English media when you're bad,they hate you and when you're
good they love you.
There's just no middle ground,and it's funny.
I'm in the process of movingback to the UK and I'm not used
to the adversarial nature of themedia, or I'm sorry, I've
(06:27):
forgotten what it was likeliving in australia.
It's just not like this at all,and so I think the media will
see it as their job to pokeholes in in coaches that don't
achieve, particularly whenthey've got a group of young
players.
I don't know much about garethsouthgate.
I don't know him.
I I I know from people who doknow him that he's a lovely
fella.
I know that he puts a lot oftime, thought and effort into
(06:49):
culture, so for that he has myrespect.
I think what I've noticed as afan and also as an observer of
team culture is that hisdecision making perhaps wasn't
as quick as it should have been.
So yesterday was a case inpoint.
I think if I was managing a teamand we were underperforming,
you know and I always liken itback when I used to manage
(07:11):
projects is we had a deadline tohit and we absolutely had to
hit that deadline is.
You know, sometimes you have tomake the tough decisions, you
know, and I remember replacingpersonnel on projects because
they just weren't delivering,and that's what that's all I
felt watching the game yesterday.
I felt that he had theopportunity to change it, and I
know he's a person that puts, helikes to give players the
(07:31):
responsibility to respond and,and let's face it, he was saved
by a moment of brilliance by oneof england's best players in in
um jude bellingham, and so I Ithink that was think that would
be my only, not criticism, butmy only, I suppose, observation
is that he could have changed itearlier, and so I think some of
(07:55):
the criticism that he'sreceived for that is warranted.
I mean, you know, the Englishmedia like to go on the attack
regardless.
Cath (08:01):
I think he simply can't win because if the results were
great, they go oh so good.
He trusts the players, that'sright.
He gives the team time to kindof get into the game.
You know he doesn't mess themaround and then when it isn't
working, so you've got to changeit, got to change it.
I mean he said himself he wasthinking of taking Drew
Bellingham off.
Last kind of brilliant Bicelkick, life-saving goal.
(08:23):
So it's such tiny margins.
I think that the criticismsuggests there is a right and a
wrong and with so many variablesout on the pitch and literally
a split second changes things, Imean that's what makes the game
interesting, that's why it'ssport.
Otherwise we'd be able topredict they're a better team
and so therefore they will win.
It's because of thatunpredictability that it's so
(08:44):
compelling and yet all the timewe seem to be wanting to say, oh
, that shouldn't be the case.
We should be able to deliver X,y, z.
So I think that the sort ofcommentary and the criticism is
it just doesn't really takeaccount sometimes of the tiny
margins, of what makes a teamnot work is also what can make
them brilliant.
And it's just such a tiny shift, a tiny click In a game where
(09:10):
essentially it's a low scoringgame.
It's only one moment that couldsuddenly shift things, or a
couple of moments because of theway football is set up.
It gives the underdog a chance,it makes it quite difficult to
dominate and we are at a levelwhere all these teams are really
good.
They're playing for theircountries and we've actually
seen Germany struggle in games.
(09:32):
We've seen France struggle ingames.
Colin (09:34):
There's no sort of acknowledgement.
Cath (09:38):
Yeah, italy who won last time.
So that also seems kind of oddto me.
We should be celebrating, isn'tit?
How brilliant?
It's such close margins.
We're seeing the best at thetop.
Isn't it interesting how tightit is, how unpredictable it is?
That's why it's so compelling,and yet that narrative just
isn't played.
There's some human right thatEngland should be winning.
They should be better, and ifthey're not, you know, I really
(10:01):
get tired of commentary, reallystruggle with it, because I
think it spoils the beauty ofwhat sport represents and it
also stops us from gettingcurious about what is going on.
Why is it so difficult forpeople we know are brilliant to
actually deliver in this moment?
That's the beauty of elitesport is this kind of you're
(10:21):
right on the edge of trying todo something against incredibly
high standard, and we're goingto see the same thing in the
Olympics and Paralympics.
It's tiny margins.
Colin (10:30):
So that's our group therapy session for last night's
England performance.
Cath (10:35):
Yeah.
Colin (10:36):
I want to talk about.
I read a paper by Cruikshanksand Collins called Culture
Change in Elite Performance, andso it's specifically related to
sports.
And again, you know, what we'retrying to do here with this
particular podcast is generatesome curiosity around kind of
culture.
We're not trying to spoil itfor you, by the way, all of a
sudden you're going.
Well, he didn't celebrate thegoal, what does that say for
(10:57):
culture?
But here's some things thatCruikshanks and Collins found in
their paper.
Right, and they found thathigh-performing cultures prevail
when the shared perception andaction of elite team environment
members, and there's these fourthings.
So support sorry, support tosustain optimal performance
persists across time in the faceof variable results and you
(11:21):
know that's what Cath wastalking about there with regards
to the England team and leadsto consistent high performance
Actually, it's three points, notfour, sorry.
Leads to consistent highperformance.
And so, when I read the paper,the nature of high performance
is, it's evolutionary.
However, what you need to do isto create something that
supports sustained optimalperformance.
(11:43):
So this is the foundationalnature of culture.
Now, one of the best examplesfor me recently was the Ryder
Cup, and the Ryder Cup, ifyou're not familiar with it, is
golf, and so they did a lot ofwork.
Luke Donald was the Ryder Cup,and the Ryder Cup, if you're not
familiar with it, is golf, andso they did a lot of work.
Luke Donald was the captain andthey did a lot of work around
culture before the tournament,and they attribute it to the
success against the Americanteam.
(12:06):
I read a really great interviewwith Rory McIlroy, who's one of
Europe's best golfers, and hetalked about the fact that the
team was one of the best he'sever played on, even though golf
is quite an individual sport.
Yes, you're paired with otherpeople, but it's quite
individual.
And he said one of the bestbits of it.
He said it was such a laughwith the other players.
(12:27):
He said every night they usedto have a dad joke left on the
pillow and then they had to comeand share their dad joke the
next morning or whenever it was.
And he gave an example of one.
If you're an american in theliving room, what are you in the
bathroom?
And the answer is european,european, european.
And so he said it's littlethings, you know it's a dad joke
(12:48):
, he said, but it's littlethings like that.
That all helped to build theteam spirit.
Now, cathy, you're someonewho's performed in elite
performance, obviously at theOlympics, so I'm really
interested in kind of your takeon what you've seen.
Has it changed over the years?
I mean, we were talking justoff camera about the way that
medal winners are treateddifferently, so I think they'd
(13:10):
be great stories to share withlisteners.
Cath (13:13):
Yeah, so one of the interesting things about, uh,
luke donald and and thateuropean rider cup team is they
work with owen eastwood, who isa brilliant performance coach,
who puts huge and who garethsouthgate and england team
formerly worked with, and, uh,his whole approach is one of
connection between athletes on ateam and connecting them all to
(13:33):
a greater purpose, like beyondwinning.
Why does winning matter?
What does it represent?
And actually, going brieflyback to the England team, what I
read the other day is theydon't have a psychologist with
them and they work withinspirational people from Pippa
Grange to Owen Eastwood, and soI'm also thinking, hang on,
there's been a really powerfulpart of the recipe that feels
(13:54):
like it hasn't been invested inmuch, and I do wonder if that is
part of what's going on.
And that approach is aboutbeing part of a story as well,
and that's how Southgate wasstarting to reframe what it
meant to play for England andtherefore free the players up,
which, again, we're not seeing.
And what Luke Donald was ableto do is to create the
conditions for these individualsto now feel part of a team.
(14:15):
What does it mean?
There's actually a beautifulYouTube video.
It's just three minutes.
We'll put the link to it, whereLuke Donald takes you around
the behind the scenes, how it'sset up for them.
There's nothing about winning.
On the walls there are picturesof shared moments when they've
come together in practice onprevious occasions, in previous
Ryder Cup's European teammoments.
(14:35):
So it's all of a team huggingat the end or a couple of
players playing together andthey have these pictures of Seve
Ballesteros, who's a bit of ahero, and their representation
of what it means to be a RyderCup player and have a wall with
all the people who've everplayed for the European Ryder
Cup.
That you're coming into this.
So it's creating that sense ofwhat you come into and that is
(14:56):
now something that, across sport, lots of teams start to do.
There's this you know, when theathletes went to collect their
team kit Adidas and you go.
Now that's a big event we usedto sort of turn up and use.
You know, in a warehouse, pickup your kit, you get like
literally a couple of suitcasesfull of t-shirts and your
opening ceremony uniform, yourclosing ceremony uniform and
(15:17):
your shorts and underwear andthe top and a vest top and a bra
top and you know you name itlots of stuff.
It's a lovely part, it's a realprivilege.
But now they've turned thatinto a really special moment.
So the athletes go and they goon a journey and the walls you
know, we were just in awarehouse nothing really on the
walls, maybe a couple of postersor something.
(15:37):
But now it's.
You're part of this story andthey have sort of athletes from
the past.
You know you're part of what'sgoing to happen next and then
there'll be a story kind ofbeyond you.
So you feel that you're part ofthis ongoing story of Team GB
and you're going to have yourmoment to play your contribution
.
But you're not just an athleteon your own now.
You're part of something biggerand that's something that's
(15:58):
been built out each time by theBritish Olympic Association,
working with all of the sportsto try and make it as somewhere
you feel at home, somewhere youfeel you belong.
So they always get into theOlympic Village ahead of the
athletes arriving andtroubleshoot.
They take their own team ofplumbers when they're in Rio.
What might the problems be?
Bed quality, bed mattresses,size of mattresses for your
(16:22):
rowers and your basketballplayers.
They think of all of theseissues that come up in the past
and they get in there ahead oftime and sort them out.
In fact there was a problemwith plumbing in Rio.
The Brits had sorted theirstuff out and the Australians
actually had to go and stay inhotels for a few days before
they could come into the village.
I mean, that's just disruptionand at a time of immense
pressure you want to minimisethose disruptions that can
(16:44):
really throw you off when you'vegot enough nerves kind of
flooded around the system.
So there is a much greateremphasis on trying to create an
experience in which an athleteis most likely to be able to go
out there and give theirabsolute best performance and
feel part of something biggerthan themselves.
You know, within each sportsthen there are, you know,
sometimes there's a kind ofshared team feeling as well.
(17:06):
You know the rowing team willdo their thing and you know you
sort of connect.
It looks a little bit differentthan different teams and one of
the things that I hated that Ihope they don't do anymore.
You know you sort of connect.
It looks a little bit differentthan different teams and one of
the things that I hated that Ihope they don't do anymore.
In fact they won't do this year, because no one's getting on a
plane, they're getting on theEurostar was.
We used to have this thing thatyou'll go out together sort of
on the plane, you know, justmixed up, and then you come back
(17:28):
the medalists are in the firstclass and all the rest are in
the back, and that's a real sortof sense, somehow, of being
devalued.
I think Of course we celebratethe medal winners.
They've done brilliantly.
But, you know, sometimesthere's incredible performances
that are done by other peoplewho are in an event where the
world record is broken or wherethey've overcome some incredible
adversity and they've actuallyperformed out of their skins and
(17:48):
somehow we just sort of devaluethat because it didn't come
with the medal.
You know, and actually when youarrive then at Heathrow one of
the things you don't see on TVbut if you sort of zoomed back
behind the cameras, the camerasare sort of at the front step
seeing the medalist come off andthey take a picture.
Meanwhile the rest of the planeis kind of coming out the back
steps and then walking behindthe journalist taking those
(18:09):
photos, feeling a bit kind oflike nobody cares about us.
You know, it doesn't matter,we've failed and I think we
don't need to.
You know, we don't need to sortof add that into rub, sort of
rub salt into people's wounds.
Of course you know the wholesystem is set up, but not
everybody got a medal.
You know what we want is tocelebrate the story, celebrate
everyone who's had you knowtheir best performance and you
(18:32):
know what Luck plays a role inthis.
Luck will fall well for someand less for others.
There will be so many externalfactors you can't control and
invent.
That's what makes sports sointeresting.
So I think it's important thatwe don't have a sense of you
personally are worth more as ahuman being because you won a
medal and you didn't.
The strategy has shifted totalking about winning well
(18:52):
rather than just winning.
We don't want winning at allcosts, but there's still a lot
of murkiness about what thatreally means and there's still a
lot of funding decisions thatare made on the basis of medals.
So I think sports are stillreally trying to find its way.
What I think we should belooking for is the broader
stories this summer in theOlympics.
So look at actually whatathletes have gone through to
(19:13):
get to where they are and youknow what does.
What's the story they're goingto leave with from this, uh,
from this olympics andparalympics.
Not just the medal.
There's actually a human storybehind it.
Colin (19:24):
We can often learn a lot more for from yeah, I, I was
fortunate enough to meet and andlisten to uh arson venga, the
former manager, arsenal manager,speak a few weeks ago actually,
and he and he talked about theimportance of creating and
instilling in a team aperformance culture.
And he strikes me as someonewho's always been ahead of his
(19:48):
time.
You know, he fundamentallychanged English football with
his real focus on diet andplaying style and fitness, you
know.
And he said back then he said Iwas able to influence players,
I was able to influence the clubas a whole.
He said, but it's not like that, so it's up to me to change,
not to expect the world tochange around me.
(20:09):
And he said, you know,performance culture for him is
one where the players turn upwith their own story, share that
and then ask, well, how can Iget better with the people
around me, how can I achieve myfull potential and what changes
do I need to make to get there?
And so he, you know he outlinedthat in his book, his book, his
(20:30):
biography, my life in in redand white, and he shared that
and I and I really like thatdistinction.
You know, staying with football,manchester United were one of
the, you know, kind of the mostsuccessful football teams in
recent memory.
And you know Alex Ferguson hada very you know United player.
Talk about him.
He said he was highlyemotionally intelligent.
(20:51):
You know he really took thetime to build a relationship
with players.
And Steve McLaren, theex-assistant manager, you know
he said in an interview.
He said at some clubs you getplayers who think they've made
(21:11):
it either because of a bigtransfer fee or they're highly
talented, he said.
But at Manchester United hesaid the manager and the other
players would not stand for thatand I think that for me, is
what a kind of high performancekind of looks like.
And you see this play out.
You know the Chicago Bulls alsoa great example.
But you know that really stemmedfrom the manager who's written
(21:36):
a great book called 11 Rings,phil Jackson, and every year he
used to build the culture of theteam.
First he used to buy eachplayer a book that he thought
they would enjoy and then theyall had to come back and talk
about what they learned from thebook.
And the team set their ownprinciples, but individually
they had to be good, but alsothey had to work well as a team
(21:57):
as well.
And and that's something thatyou saw on the court.
That's something you see on thepitch, where you don't need
just one captain.
You need a team of captains whotake responsibility at the
right time.
Cath (22:09):
you can't have everyone as captain at the same time I like
the that sense of focusing inon that character piece, on who
are we as people, and for me, Ijust find that fascinating.
You know, particularly whenathletes are, you know when the
competition isn't going theirway, and you know.
Same for the England team.
I'm fascinated.
How do they manage that?
What are they thinking?
(22:29):
What do they go back to?
What behaviors come out at thatpoint?
I mean, one of the sort ofinteresting developing stories
from the Euros is the Spanishteam, who seemed to be firing on
all cylinders Really impressive.
So you know, again, I'mthinking, oh, what's going on
there.
And a colleague and consultantin the culture space, jamie
McPherson, a friend of mine.
He was sort of been doing someresearch about Luis de la Fuente
(22:52):
, who's the coach of the Spanishteam, and he, interestingly,
hasn't managed a big club buthas come up managing the juniors
, the under-19s team that won in2015, the under-21s that won in
2019.
So he knows a lot of theseplayers really well and he has a
really clear philosophy.
And his philosophy is that aplayer's character and values
(23:14):
are as important as form andtalent.
And he says what surprises meis that it seems exceptional,
something that we shouldconsider as natural.
I prefer to work with goodpeople, of course, great
professionals, but also goodpeople.
He talks about this, that hewants a great group of people, a
great human group, so I lovethis plays to my approach to
(23:36):
focusing much more holisticallyon how sport is a mechanism for
developing who we are togetherrather than a mechanism purely
for winning a medal.
Only one team can do that, butactually all of the teams can
explore collectively whatthey're capable of and test
themselves under pressure, andthat's the beauty of the setting
.
And so I think having a coachlike that sounds really quite
(23:56):
inspirational, and I think it'sbeen impressive to see the
impact of that.
I mean, interestingly, southgatestarted off with that coming
out of doing very well withjunior teams as well, and that
created some continuity and asense of a common culture that
these players were meeting at ayounger age, and so you know
what it means to be part of theEngland team or, in this case,
with Luis de la Fuente.
(24:17):
You know what it means to bepart of the England team.
Or, in this case, with Luis dela Fuente, you know what it
means to be part of the Spanishteam, and I think I do think
that's so powerful.
But it's not something you cansort of suddenly fix, like if
something isn't going well andagain you can't sort of in two
days sort of suddenly changethat.
And you know that's thechallenge, that culture is an
infinite project, or I'm notsure project's the right word.
It's infinitely evolving, as weoften talk about, and then it's
(24:39):
put into this finite competitivesituation and of course that's
the challenge, isn't it?
To sort of, oh well, ifsomething isn't right in the
culture, I can't necessarilychange it.
We have to think sort of longerterm.
So I think it's attracting somedifferent coaching talent now
into it, more thoughtful peoplelike Arsene Wenger, like Gareth
Southgate, like Luis de laFuente.
And I think that also couldapply into our workplaces, where
(25:02):
we might think about how are wedeveloping people in the
workplace?
Who are we becoming in thecourse of delivering this
month's targets or this annualgoal that we've been set?
And I encourage leaders andmanagers to see that
responsibility and opportunityto help people become better
versions of themselves in thecourse of being part of your
team and pursuing the goals thatyou're pursuing, because I
(25:24):
think that's where we humanizethe cultures we're in, that's
where it gets really.
You know, there's a biggerprize, a bigger opportunity, a
bigger experience we can haveand create in the environments
that we're in experience we canhave and create in the
environments that we're in.
Colin (25:40):
And I think it's important to remember all of the
research.
All of the research so Anderson2011, cranenberg 2005, cuesta
de Mduda, 2010,.
All points to the fact thatdefined group culture
significantly shapes membercognition, member behavior,
member development, memberwell-being and member
performance.
And, as Cath rightly says, ifit's going wrong, you can't just
(26:00):
be like right, let's just bringeveryone together.
You know, one of the classicmistakes often that I read about
is when players go on these SAStraining camps and we think
that that will immediatelychange performance.
Now, those things only help whenthe culture has already been
defined.
They don't actually define theculture in and of itself.
And this is why, kind of youknow, luke Donald, prior to the
(26:22):
Ryder Cup, brought the teamtogether.
Pre-season is the perfectopportunity for football teams
or, you know, baseball teams.
Whatever your sport is, it'sthe perfect time to define
culture, just like Phil Jacksondid for the Chicago Bulls and
the LA Lakers.
So you can't immediately fix it, but what you can do is create
the foundations ahead of timesuch that, when you need it, you
(26:47):
can refer people back to whatthe agreement was, such that you
generate that accountabilityall over again.
Cath (26:50):
I think this is going to be really interesting with the
Olympics this summer.
We've got some really newevents coming, or some events
have just been in one Olympicsand they're still sort of
evolving.
So you get some events thathave been in literally centuries
and now we've got breaking,we've got skateboarding, we've
got sport climbing, we've gotsurfing.
That's actually out in Tahiti,in French Polynesia, and I think
(27:10):
they often have quite differentcultures from the more
traditional sports that havebeen in for decades or centuries
and I find that interesting towatch, to think also, you know,
from one sport to another, howdoes the culture shift because
of the history, because of youknow the sort of traditions you
might bring?
And these are sports thathaven't been shaped by being
(27:31):
part of the Olympics, that oftenhave not been shaped by winning
medals at all.
You see that with the WinterOlympics, some of those kind of
the crazy, you know, extreme,the ones where they're doing
tricks and all of that I can'tremember what they're called now
and some of those sort of whatis it?
Skiboarding oh, my goodness,I've lost it Snowboarding,
snowboarding.
Colin (27:50):
That's it.
Cath (27:52):
You can tell I'm not a winter sports person.
You can sort of see how theycome from a culture where, like,
taking a risk is what the sportis about, and it's better to
have a go at something that'snever been done before and risk
winning the medal.
It's better, though, to do that.
That's what the sport is about,and they're cheering each other
on and they're going wow, it'samazing, you attempted that,
whether you land it or not, andit'd be interesting to see over
(28:13):
time whether that sort of shifts, whether the medals, start to
kind of creep in on theirculture.
But I often find some of thosenewer, younger sports have a
really healthy perspective.
I was listening recently to SkyBrown, the kind of incredible
British skateboarder who won amedal in Tokyo, and they were
involved in qualifying.
She'd actually qualified and hada bit of an injury she was
managing recently, but she wentto do a competition to help her
(28:36):
friend who's competing for Japanto qualify, because she wanted
to make sure her friend wasthere, and I thought it was so
interesting because it goesagainst this whole narrative of
my goodness, you're helpinganother country, what is going
on?
But she's her friend, theytrain together, and I love that
sometimes this sort of spirit ofyou know, actually we are part
of something bigger, the sportthat we do, that's bigger and
that lasts well beyond.
(28:57):
You know that community isthere.
For me, the rest of my life.
That lasts beyond three minuteson the podium.
Sure, we want to compete forthat, we're happy to do that,
we're competitive animals, butactually it's the community and
the shared endeavor that comesfirst.
So I think that's a reallyinteresting thing to look out
for with some of these newsports.
How does the culture differfrom some of the more
traditional ones?
Colin (29:17):
So, again, it's another podcast where I feel like I just
keep talking.
One final thing I will mention,because one of my friends once
bemoaned the fact that he waswatching a cricket match and he
said why do they slap handsafter every delivery?
Why is it high five after everydelivery?
And that's an example of howthe culture has shifted.
Same with tennis, you know,when you see the doubles, they,
(29:38):
you know, slap hands low five,whatever you want to call it.
Again, all of these littledynamics, it's a real sign of
how culture has really changedand a demonstration and Cath
mentioned it just now of justhow important connection is to
the younger athletes, theyounger sports.
People have been brought up toexpect different, and so it how
important connection is to theyounger athletes, the younger
sports.
Uh, people have been brought upto expect different, uh, and so
(30:00):
it's fascinating.
Cath (30:01):
So let's talk about the there was some research I think
it was in beach volleyball,could have been basketball and I
think it was beach volleyballwhere they again they, they kind
of clap hands in between andthey, they looked at the results
of how often people were sortof high-fiving and connecting
and how they didperformance-wise and the teams
that had greater connection,more hand slaps, did better.
Colin (30:24):
Wow okay, I'm gonna get we'll.
Cath (30:26):
We will dig them yeah, we'll try and look that out.
Colin (30:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah because that would be a really good one
to share.
All right, what are our threetakeaways, kat?
Cath (30:33):
So, yeah, actions, so it's a lovely one.
Listen, observe, listencarefully to what the athletes
and the teams talk about beyondthe result.
Yeah, so they're going to go.
Yeah, we're happy we won orwe're disappointed we didn't win
.
But then listen to what comesnext.
Listen carefully to what theytalk about, because that gives
you a sense of they really valueand their character and how
(30:55):
they're approaching it.
Colin (30:56):
All right, so one thing to get curious about is look
beyond the result.
What do you notice about theteam dynamics?
Who's celebrating with who?
How are they hand slapping?
What are you seeing around thepersonalities?
I always look out for thoselittle interactions.
How are people motivating eachother?
How are they holding each otherto account?
(31:17):
What do you notice about theculture from what you see in
front of you?
And then, lastly, Cath, whatshould we want people to uncover
?
Cath (31:24):
Yeah, so I mean building on that further.
Yeah, what are the ways inwhich athletes and sports teams
have developed their norms thatare underpinning their
performance?
So what can you notice?
What can you sort of uncoverreading between the lines, or
listening between what they sayin interviews and things about
how have they got to this placewhere they're able to bring
their best performance underpressure.
(31:46):
So what have they done to dothat?
Because often they will tellyou that, but it might not be
the thing the journalist or theinterview is focusing on but
uncover the ways in whichathletes and sports teams have
developed behavioural norms,values that underpin performance
.
Colin (31:59):
So what we've just done there is ruin sport for
everybody.
Cath (32:02):
So when they were just We've deepened it, we've
deepened your experience, we'veenriched this summer of a sport.
Colin (32:08):
Yes, we have it's official.
Cath (32:09):
You can spend time watching and studying it.
Colin (32:12):
So get your notebooks out for England's next game, as
well as your scarf.
All right, Cath, great to talkabout this fabulous subject.
Thank you.
Cath (32:19):
Brilliant Cheers.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out.
Colin (32:24):
Culture Podcast.
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