October 10, 2024 • 29 mins
Armed forces around the world have a reputation for combatant, often toxic, cultures. There is often an ‘old fashioned’ view that this is just how the military is.
This week on the Inside Out Culture podcast we ask whether that's true or not. We look below the surface of the media stories to determine whether the armed forces are any differently - culturally - than any other organisation.
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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colin (00:02):
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Cath (00:33):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast.
Today we're going to be lookingat why there are such
persistent cultural issues inthe armed forces and my goodness
, you just have to put that intoGoogle.
And there are such persistentcultural issues in the armed
forces and, my goodness, youjust have to put that into
Google and there are endlessarticles, reviews, cases so many
(00:56):
, colin, you've been digginginto some of the research around
this.
There's a lot.
Colin (01:00):
Yeah, there is a lot, Cath.
I mean, I think in the lastyear alone we've had the Red
Arrows submarines, the IrishArmy that was in the news last
year the Ministry of Defence Iread a story about a leader's
behaviour in the US Navy as wellat the start of the year and
(01:22):
it's not one single thing.
Um, I think that you know youmentioned persistent.
It is, and, but it's differentthings.
I think I think that's the.
That's the worrying thing.
But I, but I, you know, one ofthe things we want to get into
today is what might some ofthose uh, root causes be?
I remember you know that I readabout the irish defense force
(01:42):
and everything.
Everything that I've read is isfrom the actual reviews that
have been produced.
It's not allegations, it'sactually the insights from the
reviews that were actuallyproduced.
A lot of misogyny, Cath, whichI think we'll talk a little bit
about.
But the Irish Defence Forcesenior officers, you know had
(02:03):
been alerted to the changes thatrequired and then just didn't
do it.
You know we've talked at lengthon the podcast about
organisations such as the MetPolice who had been alerted to
issues time and time and timeand time again but just never
brought about the change thatwas actually required in order
to create, you know, kind of asafe fibre of workplace where
(02:24):
actually people could just comeand do their jobs.
I think often we see themilitary in a slightly different
light.
I think we think of them asmachines, as robots.
Sometimes, I think, you know, Ithink there's a very you know,
for someone like myself, broughtup in the 80s, there's a full
metal jacket approach to themilitary, when they're just
(02:44):
human beings in a variety ofdifferent roles, all trying to
do their jobs, whatever they maybe in different ways.
But certainly, as I was, youknow, reading a lot of these
reports, and again, I don't Idon't want to tar every area of
the military with this brush,but there are persistent issues
that bring about toxicity.
Cath (03:04):
Yeah, I think I was struck by the number of reviews and
yet the lack of progress overtime.
As you say, it's a very it'scontinued repeating itself.
And so that's interesting,isn't it?
Because at least they'reopening themselves up to reviews
, and reviews highlight somefairly horrific stories of
bullying, of misogyny, racism,and then we just get another
(03:27):
review six months later.
So there's something for me interms of the leadership
prioritization of this, or eventhe leadership competence of
understanding what deep culturalchange looks like.
So I think there is sometimes anapproach of we'll root out,
we'll find someone to, and youknow the kind of what we say
(04:06):
about ourselves and our forces,that we want to be inclusive,
and you know all of thatlanguage is there, but the
actual lived experience is verydifferent and you need to get in
between that gap to think aboutwhat are the moments when we're
not living what we've said weshould be doing, and how is that
being enabled in theenvironment?
(04:27):
So I think also, they look forlet's try and blame somebody and
then we can move on, ratherthan you know as we talked about
yeah, the Met Police aredefinite echoes what's in the
environment that allows peopleto behave like this?
Because I also think that'svery shocking sometimes that you
know some of the examples a lotare around misogyny.
These are people who've gotmothers and sisters and
(04:49):
daughters and I don't thinkthey'd be behaving like that at
home.
So what's happened in thisenvironment that's actually
enabled this other way ofoperating to feel like the norm
and to actually feel essentialin order to fit in.
And I think there are particularpressures here to the military
in terms of the pressure of thejob and the need to be really
(05:11):
tight and cohesive, and perhapsthat feels then a difficult
space to bring diversity into,because what they previously
built cohesion around have beendifferent principles of actually
we look all the same, we're allmen and you know, and that
gives us, you know, our trustcomes from that and you're
almost having to, you know,create a different philosophy of
(05:32):
what trust looks like now.
Uh, because it doesn't look thesame, could actually be as deep
or deeper, but that's quite adeep air.
You know you're needing to workat a deeper level than is
probably written about, talkedabout in meetings and in the
office, you know, or out on themarch, and so for me there's a
kind of competence amongstleaders that seems to be really
(05:54):
lacking in this area.
Colin (05:55):
Yeah, I agree.
I think for the militarypossibly more than any other
profession that I can think ofand that I've researched has
been the greatest level ofchange over the last 10 to 15
years.
As you mentioned, they'rehistorically male dominated and
I think those kinds ofenvironments can kind of foster
(06:18):
hyper-masculinity, sexism.
There's a real emphasis ontoughness, on suppressing
emotions, on following orders,and I'm not necessarily saying
that's wrong, but if you thinkabout how the world has moved on
in the last 10 to 15 years andyou think about the pressure
(06:38):
that's being applied to militaryleaders to change, often
without the education of notonly how to change but also how
to create inclusive workplaceswhilst not compromising the
values, morals that they've kindof been instilled with from
their own training, I think thatmust be a really tough ask.
(06:59):
It must be really hard for themto kind of move away from what
has been traditional thinkingfor many, many years into a
different mode, and it'srequired.
I'm not saying for one minutethat they shouldn't do it, it's
absolutely required.
But I do wonder how muchsupport, how much training, how
much education they've beengiven.
(07:20):
And this is something that wetalked about almost in our very
first podcast, Cath, where wetalked about the fact that why
don't leaders understand cultureand the fact that we don't
really educate people.
And you know, what I've read inthe military very much speaks
to a lack.
But especially in the military,is when someone's found to
behave inappropriately, theyreceive a censure and then we're
(07:50):
told that they're going on somekind of behavior training or
that they've been sent on adiversity and inclusion course.
And again, it's not that it'swrong, but it's not the
education that's required inorder that they can better
understand how to create a safe,respectful workplace that
embodies the morals and thediscipline that's required in
(08:10):
the military.
But people feel safe to come today in, day out and do the best
that they can.
Cath (08:16):
So that's right.
If you sort of send, try andsend the problem away, try and
fix it somewhere else and thencome back again, that doesn't
work because the environmentyou're in hasn't changed.
Even if you come back with somedifferent ideas, you probably
haven't got the skills to have aconversation really, or the
people sitting in thatenvironment, they haven't been
on the course either.
So, yeah, I agree, what'sreally important is to increase
(08:38):
that competence aroundconversations, sort of almost
like facilitation skills to bediscussing some really
uncomfortable issues and to beable to, you know, challenge
some of those stereotypes and tokind of call out the language.
That can be very.
You know, the banter can bevery damaging and you know, if
(08:59):
you're not really got that sortof competence to do that, then
you're, you just go with it,especially if you're in the in
group and if you're in the outgroup, well, you've got no one's
going to listen to you andyou'll only be excluded further.
So I think, yeah, that's yeah,an understanding and education
around what.
What is culture and how is itshaped and how do we each play a
role each day to keep it whereit is or to change it in a
(09:20):
different direction.
Yeah, I was thinking that also,the impact of tradition is
potentially greater here thanelsewhere.
I was thinking it's a sort ofperformance high pressure
environment, if you like,because of the stakes of what
they could be involved in.
And you could say pressure isvery high in sport, pressure is
very high in business.
But I think both those worlds,whilst also with as we've
(09:41):
discussed many culturalchallenges, I still think
there's a sense of changebecause they have, you know,
sport looks different andthere's a sort of the public
watch it close up.
Yeah, we watch athletes doingtheir thing in the, you know,
the Olympics or, you know, in afootball match, whereas we don't
really see the military at work.
(10:02):
So there isn't that sort oftransparency in a way.
And I think also, you knoworganisational life, business
life, that there there are, um,you know, ways within the
organization that are evolving,sometimes not brilliantly but
sometimes better, in terms ofwhistleblowing or openness, or
you know, again, leaders comingin defining a purpose in a
(10:22):
different way.
So it feels like there isn't asmuch kind of impetus towards
change and towards saying, youknow, what got us here can't get
us there, one of those driversin sport that would be very
useful, I think for the militaryto think about more.
What do you think are the thingsthat, yeah, what would you
advise in some of thesesituations?
What do we need to see kind ofmore of?
(10:45):
There was a big review byBoston Consulting Group just
last year saying culture changeis crucial because it's the only
way you're going to be able toaddress the talent gap.
So what would you be advisingthem to to do?
Colin (10:59):
Yeah, so I worked with a branch of the Australian Defence
Force two years ago, so justafter the COVID restrictions
were lifted.
Cath and I spent a day withsenior leaders in this
particular area, educating themon what culture actually is,
which you'd be amazed just howpeople didn't understand the
(11:21):
dynamics of that.
Obviously, in the militarythere's very strict hierarchy
and, interestingly, in thepre-conversations that I had
with the leaders of thatparticular division, we talked
about what I couldn't talk about, if that makes sense.
So it was very, very strict,like here's the things that you
can't mention, here's the thingsthat you can't talk about.
And they were particularlywithout compromise in my
(11:43):
non-disclosure agreement.
They were particularly thingsaround hierarchy, around certain
cultural norms that existed,and I very much focused on what
it meant to build an inclusiveteam culture.
So particular things that Italked about.
There's a stigma around mentalhealth, about soft versus tough,
those kinds of things, a suckit up mentality.
(12:05):
I don't think that's unique tothe Australian Defence Force,
know, like if you're feelingtired, you have to suck it up
and you have to get on with itand and do it again.
You know, one of the issuesthat came up was a kind of
desensitization to violence andthen and then how that was
projected in the day-to-day lifeof the military, even if you
(12:26):
were working in, let's's say, asan example, things like
communications, near-fieldcommunications or on-field
communications.
It was kind of this this iswhat you have to go through.
And yet there was no sense ofokay, well, how do we build some
resilience into our team suchthat we make sure that we're
there for each other?
How do we make sure that weunderstand what behaviors are
(12:49):
relevant for the world that welive in today that still embody
the military values that weexpect?
And I think that was one of thebiggest issues that I observed
whilst working with thatparticular team.
There was an understanding thatin their private lives and in
the world that they kind ofinhabit now, these are the
(13:09):
behaviors that are acceptableand these behaviors that aren't
acceptable.
And yet when they came into therole, whatever it might be, it
was almost like it was adifferent set of rules and you
know people were reallyuncomfortable with the fact that
.
I'll give you an example Oneperson gave an example where a
leader, you know, kind ofverbally abused and he used
(13:33):
those words.
He said I felt verbally abused.
He was just like, but when Iwalked away I'm like that's
normal, that's what happens here.
He was like, but it was onlyafterwards he reflected he's
like why are we still behavingin that way?
So I think that was.
You know, certainly that's oneof the big things that came out
was there was this sense of thebehaviors were relatively old
fashioned for what they neededto be right now and did nothing
(13:57):
really to kind of project asense of modernity or a sense of
what the military needed tobecome, and that there were
certain people who were holdingonto the status quo, almost like
well, you know, that's what Iwas brought up in, that's what
I'm comfortable with, that'swhat I need to create moving
forward.
Cath (14:17):
I think there's a quite a tight, there's a sort of time
lag in terms of I feel like theyknow what, that they need to
change and they kind of knowsome of it.
But then it's bringing it intosort of daily life, because I
think sometimes when they'remaking operational changes you
sort of swing around, you knowI'll have less helicopters here
and we've got them over here,and stuff moves, whereas I think
(14:38):
because you can't sort ofmandate it in the same way they
try and mandate it and thatdoesn't really work that they're
not necessarily as aware ofwhat they're role modeling and
the impact of their language andthe impact of hierarchy.
So I think a huge thing isabout listening across ranks and
that is something that actuallyin that Boston Consulting Group
(15:00):
review last year, they talkabout as being really important.
For if you want to attracttalent and new young people,
coming in the hierarchy is sostifling and at the top they
literally don't know what'sgoing on.
They're so far removed from thereality of all these examples
that then come out, whichsometimes they're generally
shocked about not always, butyou know, I think at times
(15:24):
there's that real distancebecause of this respect for
hierarchy and I think, as yousee, that gets broken down in
other parts of society, becauseit can be quite damaging, and
you can't afford to be that faraway.
And so I think rethinkinghierarchy is interesting.
Now, actually, at the same time, in the operational world,
they're having to rethinkhierarchy because they need to
(15:46):
move in a much faster way.
The enemy is not sort of onehomogenous grouping necessarily.
You know again, whoever it isyou're fighting may be operating
in a much looser way, not withone leader, not with a huge
hierarchy, and that's one of thethings, isn't it?
That is talked about in Team ofTeams by the American general
(16:07):
whose name's just gone out myhead.
Colin (16:09):
Stanley McChrystal.
Cath (16:10):
Stanley McChrystal where they just in Iraq.
He was in charge of the forcesthere.
You know they were too slow ifthey waited for intelligence in
one part of the machine to go upthe chain and back down to
where it was needed, and so thatsort of has started the
beginning of more kind of fluidpeople not just being in one
rigid part of an army for allthe time.
So I'm an intelligence officer,I'm a, you know, something else
(16:32):
on the frontline over here.
I'm something else whereactually we need to mix people
across units so you don't havethese sort of non-inclusive
cultures in whatever role you'rein.
And starting to break down someof that, I think you know more
women are frankly needed insenior roles and that would be a
huge help.
I can't see how they can moveforward without it.
(16:53):
That doesn't seem to behappening, I guess because women
aren't staying in enoughnumbers for long enough.
But I think there are hugebarriers to the women who are
trying to do that and there'ssomething about that kind of,
that kind of yeah, a listening.
We often see cultural reviewsenable us to listen to different
stories and we've got to keephearing those stories, not just
(17:15):
when the reviewers come in butfor those to be kind of
circulating all the time.
So there's, you know, there's asense that they are changing
and yet they're not changingfast enough with the culture.
I think you know the other sortof piece that is out there and
known is, you know, in order tomanage PTSD post-traumatic
stress disorder there's a needfor much greater focus, moving
(17:37):
away from the machismo, from thetough it out approach, to
enabling soldiers, anybody inany role who's seen kind of
pressure and difficultsituations in hostile
environments, to be able to telltheir story, to be able to make
sense of it, to be able to openup about difficult things
they've seen.
So again, they have thatknowledge and in certain places
(17:59):
are definitely using that, butit's almost, it's not
mainstreamed that perhaps weneed that, you know, actually as
part of how we operate whenwe're not in the pressure
situations out in the field, butactually we need to be more
mindful about the experienceswe're having and how we're
treating each other, just in ain a training situation.
So for me there's that there'sa real kind of gap between
(18:20):
knowing and doing, because theydo have the knowledge of the
need to be different, they'veplenty, but there are some real
barriers and, you know, comeback to that sort of leadership
piece, really to putting this asthe number one priority, and
actually this will thenfacilitate to do the other
things you think your prioritiesare in a much more effective
way.
Colin (18:40):
Yeah.
So Stanley McChrystal, one ofmy favorite quotes in his book,
where he talked about his ownbehavior and talked about his
responsibility as a leader andhe said my most powerful
instrument of communication wasmy own behavior.
Bad examples resonate even morepowerfully than good ones.
And he said you know greatquote.
Yeah, he said it's myresponsibility to put forward
(19:02):
the good ones so that people cansee that I'm role modeling it.
When I worked with the defenseforce and it was a female leader
that I worked with whorecognized that she was one of
very few and it was herresponsibility to lead change,
not wait on the sidelines for itto happen.
And one of the things that wediscussed at length was
emotional intelligence, Cath,because there was a sense that
(19:25):
emotional intelligence wassomehow soft and we've talked
about this in the past and we'vetalked about the language that
people use around emotionalintelligence that somehow
emotionally intelligent peoplewould compromise military
operations when, of course, thereverse is true, and all of the
research shows that the reverseis true.
(19:46):
When, of course, the reverse istrue, and all of the research
shows that the reverse is truethat actually emotionally
intelligent people, what theydemonstrate is mental toughness,
mental agility, and they'reable to build strong
relationships, they're able tolisten empathetically, they're
able to build kind of strength,not only internally but
externally too.
And you know, one of the thingsthat I was challenged on was
(20:10):
this concept of discipline, andI particularly remember the
instance and somebody said, well, okay, well, isn't it just an
opportunity to dress sloppily?
You know, we've got these realstrong cultural norms about
dress and discipline.
On the contrary, it's like ifyou fundamentally understand who
you are and you understand thekind of person that you need to
(20:31):
be, and you're involved in thedefinition of how we run our
kind of business or division ona day-to-day basis, you're 100%
invested in that and you bringyour best self to that.
And it was almost a surprise.
It was like, oh, we justassumed that this was all kind
of new age stuff.
I'm like it's not new age stuff.
(20:52):
You know, the research aroundemotional intelligence has been
around since 2001.
And really what it speaks to isthat mental toughness, that
mental agility, and actuallywhen we build teams that are
emotionally intelligent, we areway more likely to achieve any
goal that we might have,regardless of where you work in
the military in the same waythat you do with any other
(21:13):
organization.
Cath (21:14):
I think you really put your finger there on the mindset
shift that's required, thatsomehow this is soft and they're
all about hard doing thingsthat are tough, and they've seen
the research but they haven'tsomehow quite shifted their
beliefs that, but they haven'tsomehow quite shifted their
beliefs that.
You know, what does thatrequire?
That requires them to kind ofsee consistently, kind of more
(21:36):
evidence of how this is working.
They need to be trying it out,they need to be, you know, held
accountable for this.
It needs to be in itself a goal, not a sort of optional extra.
You could try around the edges,but this is fundamentally how
we need to do things in order tobe better at jobs.
It's not an inclusive culturefor the sake of an inclusive
culture, although that is agreat and worthy thing.
It is in order to, you know, beable to do our jobs better, to
(21:59):
be able to be much more smart,because I think, again, you get
this uniformity that you know westart to say the same things to
fit in, and that's reallydangerous because, again, they
need to be very agile in theirthinking.
They're kind of got a lot ofchallenges coming at them,
particularly if they're in thefield, so you don't want
everybody to look the same andcome up with the same solutions.
(22:20):
And you know, matthew Syed, inhis brilliant book Rebel Ideas,
starts off talking about how theCIA made vital mistakes around
understanding the danger ofthings leading up to 9-11 and
Osama bin Laden sitting in hiscave and they sort of dismissed
that because they'd all come upthrough this sort of Western Ivy
League education and hadn'tunderstood the really powerful
(22:43):
symbolism that was coming fromhis message, that was actually
empowering people to rise up,and they just thought it was
very unsophisticated.
And so you know, he sort oftalks about the danger of us all
thinking the same and thenwe're sort of individually
clever but collectively stupid.
And so it's really importantfor the army to be able to, for
(23:04):
all the armed forces to be ableto do their jobs well, to have a
real cognitive diversity andthe ability to speak up, to
speak against groupthink, tospeak against the status quo,
and therefore the leaders to beenhancing those voices, looking
for those voices, inviting thosevoices.
I am having a few flashbacks towhen I was working as a diplomat
(23:24):
, quite often in situationsclose with the military.
You know, on one hand Iabsolutely admired their
incredible commitment and, yeah,unbelievable sort of dedication
, working, you know whateverhours required, real
professionalism.
But there was still, yeah, areal sort of lack of
sophistication in some of thoseareas you've highlighted.
(23:45):
And I was known as the woman inthe consulate.
You know, when there wereissues with sort of you know in
Basra with terrible, uh terribleviolence against women in the
street and the need to respondto this, it was getting reported
a lot in the UK, it was sort of, well, it's how do we do
anything about the women inBasra?
Let's go and ask that woman inthe consulate because she'll
(24:06):
know about it, because she's awoman.
I do remember some things likethat kind of thinking.
My goodness, this is not goingto help us move forward, this
kind of thinking and the need.
Therefore, we're sort of smartin a limited way and we've got
to be just broaden the thinking.
And that would require all ofthese again incredible
educational establishments,defence academies where they're
(24:28):
thinking strategically broader,defence academies where they're
thinking strategically broader.
I wonder if they're also doingenough to have that sort of
emotional breadth, thatrelational sophistication and
the ability to sort of connectin different ways.
Once you've got your moresophisticated strategy, yeah,
you've got to bring it to lifethrough a hopefully increasingly
diverse set of people aroundyou.
(24:50):
So I think yeah, there are somereal challenges that still sit
out there that this persistenceshows that there are some skills
missing, some understandingmissing, some impact missing
about what deep cultural changereally requires.
Colin (25:06):
And it probably means Cath as well a challenge to some
of those traditions and therituals which you mentioned at
the top of the show which areheld in such high esteem.
I think you know that many ofthose ceremonies kind of
reinforce existing powerstructures, you know kind of
rank based events and seatingarrangements and saluting and
(25:31):
all of these kind of things.
And you know I again I want tobe clear here.
What we're not saying is all ofthat goes out the window.
What we're saying is you needto, what the military needs to
do is kind of look at the waythat it sets up those rituals
and set, because every culturehas its rituals, right, um, but
it's incumbent upon everyorganization to look at, look at
(25:52):
those rituals and say does itenhance and does it create the
kind of culture that we need tobecome?
And you know you rent.
You rightly mentioned diversitythere, but it's not just about
gender, it's about cognitivediversity as well as.
Cath (26:04):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, where are?
Colin (26:06):
those pockets of ideas, where are those pockets of
creativity that can really helpus to become something that
we're not right now?
And I feel that the military,specifically, are very reticent
to look outside themselves.
They're very keen sometimes anda lot of the reviews said this
they're keen to protect thehierarchy, they're keen to
protect some of those powerstructures that exist right now.
(26:30):
Hannah, we're looking after ourown, and that was a key barrier
to change.
Cath (26:36):
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah, power structures are huge, aren't they?
Because that's inherent in thehierarchy it's built in and that
is really blocking, I think, alot of this change, as you say,
and, yeah, you have to take astep back, don't you say what
and who is our culture serving?
And it's evolution again.
It's about saying where do wewant to get to.
I think of Owen Eastwood andhis building the story.
(26:57):
It's almost like we have thisgreat tradition, although let's
face it that we can clearly seetimes where it hasn't been
completely.
It's not all good.
How do we evolve into the nextchapter?
And it's almost that reluctanceto say it's part of a story.
What's's the next traditionthat we're building here?
Rather than just clinging ontoan old one, you know, like
clinging onto a rock in the sea,how do we want to consciously,
(27:19):
together now evolve that anddevelop those traditions?
So, yes, fascinating, isn't it?
Colin (27:25):
Yeah.
Cath (27:26):
Right, we've got to that point, so we need to kind of
think about what are our?
So what's from today that wecan learn by taking a quick deep
dive into these persistentcultural issues?
So we're going to say what'sour action?
What are we going to getcurious about, what can we
uncover?
And these are questions that wecould then apply into all of
our own workplaces as well.
(27:46):
So what's our action?
What should we do?
Colin (27:50):
well.
So what's our action?
What should we do?
Well, I think you should getrid of the old fashioned
behaviors that are no longerrelevant.
If I'm being brutally frank,when I read some of the research
and some of the things thatpeople have done, the behaviors
that are on show are no longerrelevant and they need to go.
I think that's the action there, definitely.
Cath (28:07):
Yeah, absolutely Identify them.
And yeah, if they are no longerserving you, Definitely yeah,
absolutely Identify them.
And yeah, if they are no longerserving you, time to move on
from them, yeah.
So, in terms of curiosity, Ithink getting curious about how
you can maintain things that youmight need, like discipline and
structure, which are an armedforces would need, and combine
those things in a culture ofemotional intelligence and
respect.
So it's both, and rather thanthinking it's either.
(28:29):
Or how do we create a culturethat can maintain discipline and
structure alongside emotionalintelligence and respect?
Colin (28:38):
Yeah, and it's absolutely 100% doable.
It's not in the too hard basket.
It's something that can be done.
And then I think the last thingpeople should uncover is
whether hierarchy and power, aswe mentioned at the end, are the
root cause of your cultureissues.
Do you have some, I guess,legacy ways of thinking and
(28:59):
working that might be holdingback the evolution of your
culture?
Cath (29:04):
And understanding the impact of hierarchy and power is
perhaps the place to startthere.
Of course, this is really anarea where leaders are the ones
who have most power to changethat.
But just starting to understandthat impact of hierarchy and
power and how does it play outin your workplace in everyday
sorts of ways, not just theorganogram, what does that mean
in process, I think really helpsus to uncover how culture
(29:28):
operates in our workplaces.
Colin (29:30):
What a fascinating conversation, Cath.
Thank you so much.
Look forward to the next one.
Cath (29:34):
Great to chat.
Bye for now.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out Culture.
Colin (29:40):
Podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested.
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Cath (00:33):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast.
Today we're going to be lookingat why there are such
persistent cultural issues inthe armed forces and my goodness
, you just have to put that intoGoogle.
And there are such persistentcultural issues in the armed
forces and, my goodness, youjust have to put that into
Google and there are endlessarticles, reviews, cases so many
(00:56):
, colin, you've been digginginto some of the research around
this.
There's a lot.
Colin (01:00):
Yeah, there is a lot, Cath.
I mean, I think in the lastyear alone we've had the Red
Arrows submarines, the IrishArmy that was in the news last
year the Ministry of Defence Iread a story about a leader's
behaviour in the US Navy as wellat the start of the year and
(01:22):
it's not one single thing.
Um, I think that you know youmentioned persistent.
It is, and, but it's differentthings.
I think I think that's the.
That's the worrying thing.
But I, but I, you know, one ofthe things we want to get into
today is what might some ofthose uh, root causes be?
I remember you know that I readabout the irish defense force
(01:42):
and everything.
Everything that I've read is isfrom the actual reviews that
have been produced.
It's not allegations, it'sactually the insights from the
reviews that were actuallyproduced.
A lot of misogyny, Cath, whichI think we'll talk a little bit
about.
But the Irish Defence Forcesenior officers, you know had
(02:03):
been alerted to the changes thatrequired and then just didn't
do it.
You know we've talked at lengthon the podcast about
organisations such as the MetPolice who had been alerted to
issues time and time and timeand time again but just never
brought about the change thatwas actually required in order
to create, you know, kind of asafe fibre of workplace where
(02:24):
actually people could just comeand do their jobs.
I think often we see themilitary in a slightly different
light.
I think we think of them asmachines, as robots.
Sometimes, I think, you know, Ithink there's a very you know,
for someone like myself, broughtup in the 80s, there's a full
metal jacket approach to themilitary, when they're just
(02:44):
human beings in a variety ofdifferent roles, all trying to
do their jobs, whatever they maybe in different ways.
But certainly, as I was, youknow, reading a lot of these
reports, and again, I don't Idon't want to tar every area of
the military with this brush,but there are persistent issues
that bring about toxicity.
Cath (03:04):
Yeah, I think I was struck by the number of reviews and
yet the lack of progress overtime.
As you say, it's a very it'scontinued repeating itself.
And so that's interesting,isn't it?
Because at least they'reopening themselves up to reviews
, and reviews highlight somefairly horrific stories of
bullying, of misogyny, racism,and then we just get another
(03:27):
review six months later.
So there's something for me interms of the leadership
prioritization of this, or eventhe leadership competence of
understanding what deep culturalchange looks like.
So I think there is sometimes anapproach of we'll root out,
we'll find someone to, and youknow the kind of what we say
(04:06):
about ourselves and our forces,that we want to be inclusive,
and you know all of thatlanguage is there, but the
actual lived experience is verydifferent and you need to get in
between that gap to think aboutwhat are the moments when we're
not living what we've said weshould be doing, and how is that
being enabled in theenvironment?
(04:27):
So I think also, they look forlet's try and blame somebody and
then we can move on, ratherthan you know as we talked about
yeah, the Met Police aredefinite echoes what's in the
environment that allows peopleto behave like this?
Because I also think that'svery shocking sometimes that you
know some of the examples a lotare around misogyny.
These are people who've gotmothers and sisters and
(04:49):
daughters and I don't thinkthey'd be behaving like that at
home.
So what's happened in thisenvironment that's actually
enabled this other way ofoperating to feel like the norm
and to actually feel essentialin order to fit in.
And I think there are particularpressures here to the military
in terms of the pressure of thejob and the need to be really
(05:11):
tight and cohesive, and perhapsthat feels then a difficult
space to bring diversity into,because what they previously
built cohesion around have beendifferent principles of actually
we look all the same, we're allmen and you know, and that
gives us, you know, our trustcomes from that and you're
almost having to, you know,create a different philosophy of
(05:32):
what trust looks like now.
Uh, because it doesn't look thesame, could actually be as deep
or deeper, but that's quite adeep air.
You know you're needing to workat a deeper level than is
probably written about, talkedabout in meetings and in the
office, you know, or out on themarch, and so for me there's a
kind of competence amongstleaders that seems to be really
(05:54):
lacking in this area.
Colin (05:55):
Yeah, I agree.
I think for the militarypossibly more than any other
profession that I can think ofand that I've researched has
been the greatest level ofchange over the last 10 to 15
years.
As you mentioned, they'rehistorically male dominated and
I think those kinds ofenvironments can kind of foster
(06:18):
hyper-masculinity, sexism.
There's a real emphasis ontoughness, on suppressing
emotions, on following orders,and I'm not necessarily saying
that's wrong, but if you thinkabout how the world has moved on
in the last 10 to 15 years andyou think about the pressure
(06:38):
that's being applied to militaryleaders to change, often
without the education of notonly how to change but also how
to create inclusive workplaceswhilst not compromising the
values, morals that they've kindof been instilled with from
their own training, I think thatmust be a really tough ask.
(06:59):
It must be really hard for themto kind of move away from what
has been traditional thinkingfor many, many years into a
different mode, and it'srequired.
I'm not saying for one minutethat they shouldn't do it, it's
absolutely required.
But I do wonder how muchsupport, how much training, how
much education they've beengiven.
(07:20):
And this is something that wetalked about almost in our very
first podcast, Cath, where wetalked about the fact that why
don't leaders understand cultureand the fact that we don't
really educate people.
And you know, what I've read inthe military very much speaks
to a lack.
But especially in the military,is when someone's found to
behave inappropriately, theyreceive a censure and then we're
(07:50):
told that they're going on somekind of behavior training or
that they've been sent on adiversity and inclusion course.
And again, it's not that it'swrong, but it's not the
education that's required inorder that they can better
understand how to create a safe,respectful workplace that
embodies the morals and thediscipline that's required in
(08:10):
the military.
But people feel safe to come today in, day out and do the best
that they can.
Cath (08:16):
So that's right.
If you sort of send, try andsend the problem away, try and
fix it somewhere else and thencome back again, that doesn't
work because the environmentyou're in hasn't changed.
Even if you come back with somedifferent ideas, you probably
haven't got the skills to have aconversation really, or the
people sitting in thatenvironment, they haven't been
on the course either.
So, yeah, I agree, what'sreally important is to increase
(08:38):
that competence aroundconversations, sort of almost
like facilitation skills to bediscussing some really
uncomfortable issues and to beable to, you know, challenge
some of those stereotypes and tokind of call out the language.
That can be very.
You know, the banter can bevery damaging and you know, if
(08:59):
you're not really got that sortof competence to do that, then
you're, you just go with it,especially if you're in the in
group and if you're in the outgroup, well, you've got no one's
going to listen to you andyou'll only be excluded further.
So I think, yeah, that's yeah,an understanding and education
around what.
What is culture and how is itshaped and how do we each play a
role each day to keep it whereit is or to change it in a
(09:20):
different direction.
Yeah, I was thinking that also,the impact of tradition is
potentially greater here thanelsewhere.
I was thinking it's a sort ofperformance high pressure
environment, if you like,because of the stakes of what
they could be involved in.
And you could say pressure isvery high in sport, pressure is
very high in business.
But I think both those worlds,whilst also with as we've
(09:41):
discussed many culturalchallenges, I still think
there's a sense of changebecause they have, you know,
sport looks different andthere's a sort of the public
watch it close up.
Yeah, we watch athletes doingtheir thing in the, you know,
the Olympics or, you know, in afootball match, whereas we don't
really see the military at work.
(10:02):
So there isn't that sort oftransparency in a way.
And I think also, you knoworganisational life, business
life, that there there are, um,you know, ways within the
organization that are evolving,sometimes not brilliantly but
sometimes better, in terms ofwhistleblowing or openness, or
you know, again, leaders comingin defining a purpose in a
(10:22):
different way.
So it feels like there isn't asmuch kind of impetus towards
change and towards saying, youknow, what got us here can't get
us there, one of those driversin sport that would be very
useful, I think for the militaryto think about more.
What do you think are the thingsthat, yeah, what would you
advise in some of thesesituations?
What do we need to see kind ofmore of?
(10:45):
There was a big review byBoston Consulting Group just
last year saying culture changeis crucial because it's the only
way you're going to be able toaddress the talent gap.
So what would you be advisingthem to to do?
Colin (10:59):
Yeah, so I worked with a branch of the Australian Defence
Force two years ago, so justafter the COVID restrictions
were lifted.
Cath and I spent a day withsenior leaders in this
particular area, educating themon what culture actually is,
which you'd be amazed just howpeople didn't understand the
(11:21):
dynamics of that.
Obviously, in the militarythere's very strict hierarchy
and, interestingly, in thepre-conversations that I had
with the leaders of thatparticular division, we talked
about what I couldn't talk about, if that makes sense.
So it was very, very strict,like here's the things that you
can't mention, here's the thingsthat you can't talk about.
And they were particularlywithout compromise in my
(11:43):
non-disclosure agreement.
They were particularly thingsaround hierarchy, around certain
cultural norms that existed,and I very much focused on what
it meant to build an inclusiveteam culture.
So particular things that Italked about.
There's a stigma around mentalhealth, about soft versus tough,
those kinds of things, a suckit up mentality.
(12:05):
I don't think that's unique tothe Australian Defence Force,
know, like if you're feelingtired, you have to suck it up
and you have to get on with itand and do it again.
You know, one of the issuesthat came up was a kind of
desensitization to violence andthen and then how that was
projected in the day-to-day lifeof the military, even if you
(12:26):
were working in, let's's say, asan example, things like
communications, near-fieldcommunications or on-field
communications.
It was kind of this this iswhat you have to go through.
And yet there was no sense ofokay, well, how do we build some
resilience into our team suchthat we make sure that we're
there for each other?
How do we make sure that weunderstand what behaviors are
(12:49):
relevant for the world that welive in today that still embody
the military values that weexpect?
And I think that was one of thebiggest issues that I observed
whilst working with thatparticular team.
There was an understanding thatin their private lives and in
the world that they kind ofinhabit now, these are the
(13:09):
behaviors that are acceptableand these behaviors that aren't
acceptable.
And yet when they came into therole, whatever it might be, it
was almost like it was adifferent set of rules and you
know people were reallyuncomfortable with the fact that
.
I'll give you an example Oneperson gave an example where a
leader, you know, kind ofverbally abused and he used
(13:33):
those words.
He said I felt verbally abused.
He was just like, but when Iwalked away I'm like that's
normal, that's what happens here.
He was like, but it was onlyafterwards he reflected he's
like why are we still behavingin that way?
So I think that was.
You know, certainly that's oneof the big things that came out
was there was this sense of thebehaviors were relatively old
fashioned for what they neededto be right now and did nothing
(13:57):
really to kind of project asense of modernity or a sense of
what the military needed tobecome, and that there were
certain people who were holdingonto the status quo, almost like
well, you know, that's what Iwas brought up in, that's what
I'm comfortable with, that'swhat I need to create moving
forward.
Cath (14:17):
I think there's a quite a tight, there's a sort of time
lag in terms of I feel like theyknow what, that they need to
change and they kind of knowsome of it.
But then it's bringing it intosort of daily life, because I
think sometimes when they'remaking operational changes you
sort of swing around, you knowI'll have less helicopters here
and we've got them over here,and stuff moves, whereas I think
(14:38):
because you can't sort ofmandate it in the same way they
try and mandate it and thatdoesn't really work that they're
not necessarily as aware ofwhat they're role modeling and
the impact of their language andthe impact of hierarchy.
So I think a huge thing isabout listening across ranks and
that is something that actuallyin that Boston Consulting Group
(15:00):
review last year, they talkabout as being really important.
For if you want to attracttalent and new young people,
coming in the hierarchy is sostifling and at the top they
literally don't know what'sgoing on.
They're so far removed from thereality of all these examples
that then come out, whichsometimes they're generally
shocked about not always, butyou know, I think at times
(15:24):
there's that real distancebecause of this respect for
hierarchy and I think, as yousee, that gets broken down in
other parts of society, becauseit can be quite damaging, and
you can't afford to be that faraway.
And so I think rethinkinghierarchy is interesting.
Now, actually, at the same time, in the operational world,
they're having to rethinkhierarchy because they need to
(15:46):
move in a much faster way.
The enemy is not sort of onehomogenous grouping necessarily.
You know again, whoever it isyou're fighting may be operating
in a much looser way, not withone leader, not with a huge
hierarchy, and that's one of thethings, isn't it?
That is talked about in Team ofTeams by the American general
(16:07):
whose name's just gone out myhead.
Colin (16:09):
Stanley McChrystal.
Cath (16:10):
Stanley McChrystal where they just in Iraq.
He was in charge of the forcesthere.
You know they were too slow ifthey waited for intelligence in
one part of the machine to go upthe chain and back down to
where it was needed, and so thatsort of has started the
beginning of more kind of fluidpeople not just being in one
rigid part of an army for allthe time.
So I'm an intelligence officer,I'm a, you know, something else
(16:32):
on the frontline over here.
I'm something else whereactually we need to mix people
across units so you don't havethese sort of non-inclusive
cultures in whatever role you'rein.
And starting to break down someof that, I think you know more
women are frankly needed insenior roles and that would be a
huge help.
I can't see how they can moveforward without it.
(16:53):
That doesn't seem to behappening, I guess because women
aren't staying in enoughnumbers for long enough.
But I think there are hugebarriers to the women who are
trying to do that and there'ssomething about that kind of,
that kind of yeah, a listening.
We often see cultural reviewsenable us to listen to different
stories and we've got to keephearing those stories, not just
(17:15):
when the reviewers come in butfor those to be kind of
circulating all the time.
So there's, you know, there's asense that they are changing
and yet they're not changingfast enough with the culture.
I think you know the other sortof piece that is out there and
known is, you know, in order tomanage PTSD post-traumatic
stress disorder there's a needfor much greater focus, moving
(17:37):
away from the machismo, from thetough it out approach, to
enabling soldiers, anybody inany role who's seen kind of
pressure and difficultsituations in hostile
environments, to be able to telltheir story, to be able to make
sense of it, to be able to openup about difficult things
they've seen.
So again, they have thatknowledge and in certain places
(17:59):
are definitely using that, butit's almost, it's not
mainstreamed that perhaps weneed that, you know, actually as
part of how we operate whenwe're not in the pressure
situations out in the field, butactually we need to be more
mindful about the experienceswe're having and how we're
treating each other, just in ain a training situation.
So for me there's that there'sa real kind of gap between
(18:20):
knowing and doing, because theydo have the knowledge of the
need to be different, they'veplenty, but there are some real
barriers and, you know, comeback to that sort of leadership
piece, really to putting this asthe number one priority, and
actually this will thenfacilitate to do the other
things you think your prioritiesare in a much more effective
way.
Colin (18:40):
Yeah.
So Stanley McChrystal, one ofmy favorite quotes in his book,
where he talked about his ownbehavior and talked about his
responsibility as a leader andhe said my most powerful
instrument of communication wasmy own behavior.
Bad examples resonate even morepowerfully than good ones.
And he said you know greatquote.
Yeah, he said it's myresponsibility to put forward
(19:02):
the good ones so that people cansee that I'm role modeling it.
When I worked with the defenseforce and it was a female leader
that I worked with whorecognized that she was one of
very few and it was herresponsibility to lead change,
not wait on the sidelines for itto happen.
And one of the things that wediscussed at length was
emotional intelligence, Cath,because there was a sense that
(19:25):
emotional intelligence wassomehow soft and we've talked
about this in the past and we'vetalked about the language that
people use around emotionalintelligence that somehow
emotionally intelligent peoplewould compromise military
operations when, of course, thereverse is true, and all of the
research shows that the reverseis true.
(19:46):
When, of course, the reverse istrue, and all of the research
shows that the reverse is truethat actually emotionally
intelligent people, what theydemonstrate is mental toughness,
mental agility, and they'reable to build strong
relationships, they're able tolisten empathetically, they're
able to build kind of strength,not only internally but
externally too.
And you know, one of the thingsthat I was challenged on was
(20:10):
this concept of discipline, andI particularly remember the
instance and somebody said, well, okay, well, isn't it just an
opportunity to dress sloppily?
You know, we've got these realstrong cultural norms about
dress and discipline.
On the contrary, it's like ifyou fundamentally understand who
you are and you understand thekind of person that you need to
(20:31):
be, and you're involved in thedefinition of how we run our
kind of business or division ona day-to-day basis, you're 100%
invested in that and you bringyour best self to that.
And it was almost a surprise.
It was like, oh, we justassumed that this was all kind
of new age stuff.
I'm like it's not new age stuff.
(20:52):
You know, the research aroundemotional intelligence has been
around since 2001.
And really what it speaks to isthat mental toughness, that
mental agility, and actuallywhen we build teams that are
emotionally intelligent, we areway more likely to achieve any
goal that we might have,regardless of where you work in
the military in the same waythat you do with any other
(21:13):
organization.
Cath (21:14):
I think you really put your finger there on the mindset
shift that's required, thatsomehow this is soft and they're
all about hard doing thingsthat are tough, and they've seen
the research but they haven'tsomehow quite shifted their
beliefs that, but they haven'tsomehow quite shifted their
beliefs that.
You know, what does thatrequire?
That requires them to kind ofsee consistently, kind of more
(21:36):
evidence of how this is working.
They need to be trying it out,they need to be, you know, held
accountable for this.
It needs to be in itself a goal, not a sort of optional extra.
You could try around the edges,but this is fundamentally how
we need to do things in order tobe better at jobs.
It's not an inclusive culturefor the sake of an inclusive
culture, although that is agreat and worthy thing.
It is in order to, you know, beable to do our jobs better, to
(21:59):
be able to be much more smart,because I think, again, you get
this uniformity that you know westart to say the same things to
fit in, and that's reallydangerous because, again, they
need to be very agile in theirthinking.
They're kind of got a lot ofchallenges coming at them,
particularly if they're in thefield, so you don't want
everybody to look the same andcome up with the same solutions.
(22:20):
And you know, matthew Syed, inhis brilliant book Rebel Ideas,
starts off talking about how theCIA made vital mistakes around
understanding the danger ofthings leading up to 9-11 and
Osama bin Laden sitting in hiscave and they sort of dismissed
that because they'd all come upthrough this sort of Western Ivy
League education and hadn'tunderstood the really powerful
(22:43):
symbolism that was coming fromhis message, that was actually
empowering people to rise up,and they just thought it was
very unsophisticated.
And so you know, he sort oftalks about the danger of us all
thinking the same and thenwe're sort of individually
clever but collectively stupid.
And so it's really importantfor the army to be able to, for
(23:04):
all the armed forces to be ableto do their jobs well, to have a
real cognitive diversity andthe ability to speak up, to
speak against groupthink, tospeak against the status quo,
and therefore the leaders to beenhancing those voices, looking
for those voices, inviting thosevoices.
I am having a few flashbacks towhen I was working as a diplomat
(23:24):
, quite often in situationsclose with the military.
You know, on one hand Iabsolutely admired their
incredible commitment and, yeah,unbelievable sort of dedication
, working, you know whateverhours required, real
professionalism.
But there was still, yeah, areal sort of lack of
sophistication in some of thoseareas you've highlighted.
(23:45):
And I was known as the woman inthe consulate.
You know, when there wereissues with sort of you know in
Basra with terrible, uh terribleviolence against women in the
street and the need to respondto this, it was getting reported
a lot in the UK, it was sort of, well, it's how do we do
anything about the women inBasra?
Let's go and ask that woman inthe consulate because she'll
(24:06):
know about it, because she's awoman.
I do remember some things likethat kind of thinking.
My goodness, this is not goingto help us move forward, this
kind of thinking and the need.
Therefore, we're sort of smartin a limited way and we've got
to be just broaden the thinking.
And that would require all ofthese again incredible
educational establishments,defence academies where they're
(24:28):
thinking strategically broader,defence academies where they're
thinking strategically broader.
I wonder if they're also doingenough to have that sort of
emotional breadth, thatrelational sophistication and
the ability to sort of connectin different ways.
Once you've got your moresophisticated strategy, yeah,
you've got to bring it to lifethrough a hopefully increasingly
diverse set of people aroundyou.
(24:50):
So I think yeah, there are somereal challenges that still sit
out there that this persistenceshows that there are some skills
missing, some understandingmissing, some impact missing
about what deep cultural changereally requires.
Colin (25:06):
And it probably means Cath as well a challenge to some
of those traditions and therituals which you mentioned at
the top of the show which areheld in such high esteem.
I think you know that many ofthose ceremonies kind of
reinforce existing powerstructures, you know kind of
rank based events and seatingarrangements and saluting and
(25:31):
all of these kind of things.
And you know I again I want tobe clear here.
What we're not saying is all ofthat goes out the window.
What we're saying is you needto, what the military needs to
do is kind of look at the waythat it sets up those rituals
and set, because every culturehas its rituals, right, um, but
it's incumbent upon everyorganization to look at, look at
(25:52):
those rituals and say does itenhance and does it create the
kind of culture that we need tobecome?
And you know you rent.
You rightly mentioned diversitythere, but it's not just about
gender, it's about cognitivediversity as well as.
Cath (26:04):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, where are?
Colin (26:06):
those pockets of ideas, where are those pockets of
creativity that can really helpus to become something that
we're not right now?
And I feel that the military,specifically, are very reticent
to look outside themselves.
They're very keen sometimes anda lot of the reviews said this
they're keen to protect thehierarchy, they're keen to
protect some of those powerstructures that exist right now.
(26:30):
Hannah, we're looking after ourown, and that was a key barrier
to change.
Cath (26:36):
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah, power structures are huge, aren't they?
Because that's inherent in thehierarchy it's built in and that
is really blocking, I think, alot of this change, as you say,
and, yeah, you have to take astep back, don't you say what
and who is our culture serving?
And it's evolution again.
It's about saying where do wewant to get to.
I think of Owen Eastwood andhis building the story.
(26:57):
It's almost like we have thisgreat tradition, although let's
face it that we can clearly seetimes where it hasn't been
completely.
It's not all good.
How do we evolve into the nextchapter?
And it's almost that reluctanceto say it's part of a story.
What's's the next traditionthat we're building here?
Rather than just clinging ontoan old one, you know, like
clinging onto a rock in the sea,how do we want to consciously,
(27:19):
together now evolve that anddevelop those traditions?
So, yes, fascinating, isn't it?
Colin (27:25):
Yeah.
Cath (27:26):
Right, we've got to that point, so we need to kind of
think about what are our?
So what's from today that wecan learn by taking a quick deep
dive into these persistentcultural issues?
So we're going to say what'sour action?
What are we going to getcurious about, what can we
uncover?
And these are questions that wecould then apply into all of
our own workplaces as well.
(27:46):
So what's our action?
What should we do?
Colin (27:50):
well.
So what's our action?
What should we do?
Well, I think you should getrid of the old fashioned
behaviors that are no longerrelevant.
If I'm being brutally frank,when I read some of the research
and some of the things thatpeople have done, the behaviors
that are on show are no longerrelevant and they need to go.
I think that's the action there, definitely.
Cath (28:07):
Yeah, absolutely Identify them.
And yeah, if they are no longerserving you, Definitely yeah,
absolutely Identify them.
And yeah, if they are no longerserving you, time to move on
from them, yeah.
So, in terms of curiosity, Ithink getting curious about how
you can maintain things that youmight need, like discipline and
structure, which are an armedforces would need, and combine
those things in a culture ofemotional intelligence and
respect.
So it's both, and rather thanthinking it's either.
(28:29):
Or how do we create a culturethat can maintain discipline and
structure alongside emotionalintelligence and respect?
Colin (28:38):
Yeah, and it's absolutely 100% doable.
It's not in the too hard basket.
It's something that can be done.
And then I think the last thingpeople should uncover is
whether hierarchy and power, aswe mentioned at the end, are the
root cause of your cultureissues.
Do you have some, I guess,legacy ways of thinking and
(28:59):
working that might be holdingback the evolution of your
culture?
Cath (29:04):
And understanding the impact of hierarchy and power is
perhaps the place to startthere.
Of course, this is really anarea where leaders are the ones
who have most power to changethat.
But just starting to understandthat impact of hierarchy and
power and how does it play outin your workplace in everyday
sorts of ways, not just theorganogram, what does that mean
in process, I think really helpsus to uncover how culture
(29:28):
operates in our workplaces.
Colin (29:30):
What a fascinating conversation, Cath.
Thank you so much.
Look forward to the next one.
Cath (29:34):
Great to chat.
Bye for now.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out Culture.
Colin (29:40):
Podcast.
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with others who you think may beinterested.
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