November 7, 2024 • 29 mins
On this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast we are answering your questions. The issues that people face differ from industry to industry and business to business, so we look at the most pressing issues and provide insights into the things that you can do.
Specifically we look at:
- How you measure belonging
- What employee engagement really means
- What boards need to do differently with regards to culture
- What you need to do differently when practising active listening and empathy
- Whether you need a vision or a purpose
Don't forget that you can submit your questions for our next questions episode by using the email address below.
---
Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.
Instagram: @insideoutculture
Email your questions to: insideoutculture@gmail.com
Receive the Culture Leaders Action Sheet: bit.ly/iocpmail
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colin (00:02):
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Hello everybody and welcome toanother episode of the Inside
Out Culture Podcast.
And today Cath and I are in astudio together, buried
somewhere underneath kind ofNorth London at the end of
Oxford Street, somewhere we gotshepherded down here.
I literally have no idea wherewe are.
Cath (00:49):
I know we're in a cellar in Soho, Like you say.
We're finding that could meanso many things.
Colin (00:54):
So many things, so many things.
Yeah, I don't want to move anyof the furniture, just in case.
How?
Cath (00:58):
have you been All good, all good, yeah, good, all good,
yeah.
So much interest in all thethings that we talk about, think
about, and so, yeah, we've justbeen catching up, haven't we
ahead of this, with all thedifferent things we're seeing
across sport, across business.
So lots going on, lots going on.
And how are you enjoying beingin the UK?
Colin (01:19):
Yes, good, I mean, the planning to move back here,
which is start of next year nowis moving the pace and it's
increasing the stress.
So I, the planning to move backhere, which is the start of
next year, now is moving thepace and it's increasing the
stress.
So I find myself having tofollow my own advice, Cath or
not, about burnout and you know,making time for oneself and
actually, you know, kind ofspending some time just kind of
relaxing and reading.
(01:40):
So yeah, it's been nice to dothat.
Cath (01:42):
As well as your own book, which I'm sure you're rereading,
but hopefully lots of othersare reading.
What else?
Yeah, what's been on yourreading list?
What else has got you thinking?
Colin (01:51):
Yes, I'm here to promote the book Detox your Culture, but
that doesn't mean you stopreading other people's books.
So I've been reading CaitlinMoran.
Caitlin Moran's book what AboutMen?
And this comes up in our work alot.
Cath is kind of male behaviorsand obviously we see a lot of
this in the papers and the media, particularly with regards to
(02:12):
our last episode was on themilitary we covered a little bit
about male behavior and so shekind of delves into the
psychology of men and howthey're different for women,
obviously physiologicallydifferent, but also I think the
key message is just howdifferently boys are raised than
girls.
Now this is changing becauseparents are changing.
(02:32):
I see this with our ownchildren and certainly the
conversations I have with my son.
I never had with my dad likeever, but it's going to take a
while for that to filter intothe workplace.
So, yeah, that's been reallyinteresting to read.
It's again a completelydifferent perspective.
I like to read books thatreally challenge me, challenge
my way of thinking, but alsoeducate me as well.
(02:53):
How about you, Cath?
Cath (02:54):
Yeah, I'm actually going to put that on my list.
I'm quite intrigued about thatas a parent to a boy and a girl.
So I've just read the latestbook that Oliver Berkman wrote.
I was really struck about ayear ago, actually, I read 4,000
Weeks, which I found verypowerful this whole concept that
life on average lasts 4,000weeks, and it really plays with
(03:16):
our perceptions of time, howwe're always trying to be more
productive and the moreproductivity tools we use, the
busier and more stressed out weget and the less productive we
are.
And I think this conundrum I seeeverywhere this desperation to
manage time better so I cansqueeze more in, and, yeah, it
(03:37):
never seems to make the qualityof work better, certainly
doesn't seem to make peoplehealthier or able to think
freely with their own ideas andto really become anything other
than robots, and so I feel thisyeah, lots of people want the
answer.
Tell me how to do this, how toarrange my life, how to get more
done, how to be a better leader, and they just accumulate more
(03:58):
tasks.
And it's madness.
We can't do this.
We're all actually becomingless clever, less smart because
of how we're working, and so Ifind his books really
thought-provoking, and the lastone is called Meditations for
Mortals, and again he sort ofprods in our habits lots of ways
of the workplace which areactually making us less smart
and less well, and Iincreasingly feel, through my
(04:21):
work, the True Athlete Projectin Sport, the power of
mindfulness to help athletesbecome better teammates, better
aware of what they can dothrough sport, who they're
becoming through sport, ratherthan just some sporting machine
for a short period of time.
And so I think there is so muchscope for us to be thinking
about how we become more mindfulin the workplace as well.
Colin (04:41):
Fabulous.
Well, today's episode is allabout questions and we've got
plenty to get stuck into, solet's get started with the first
one, Cath, so interesting one.
We talked a lot about belongingon the podcast and we talked
about Owen Eastwood's book onbelonging, and the question is
how do we measure belonging?
Cath (04:59):
Yeah, it's an interesting one and it comes back to the
theme of constantly wanting tomeasure something and this sense
of culture.
How do I get my hands on it insome sort of tangible way?
I correctly mentioned OwenEastwood's brilliant book on
belonging, which I completelyrecommend again to anyone.
(05:19):
I think first of all, beforeyou want to sort of come out
with what's the spreadsheet thatI want to use, rather than
start with a measuring template,I think we first of all, before
you, want to sort of come outwith what's the spreadsheet that
I want to use, rather thanstart with a measuring template,
I think we need to go back andthink about what does belonging
mean?
It's a term that's used quite alot in the inclusion world
because inclusion feels a littlebit of an abstract word, it's
not very warm and don't reallyconnect with it, often not very
(05:42):
human, and so it's crept into.
Often people talk aboutdiversity, inclusion and
belonging.
In a sense, I think we can allconnect to a moment when in our
lives we thought we belonged anda moment when we probably
thought we didn't belong, andthen we need to start breaking
down.
But in our context, what doesit mean for our team to belong.
I think people would define itas something slightly different
(06:03):
depending on the work, the widerculture around them, but it is
very much about an experience ofbelonging.
Therefore, we have tounderstand that experiences
can't be captured in a fewnumbers.
We can definitely start tounderstand them by getting
people's views, by listening, bytelling stories and being alert
(06:26):
to what are the stories thatpeople tell in your team and
thinking about what is thatexperience like?
What does it feel like to bepart of our team, getting those
sorts of qualitative inputs anda sense of the values?
What are the things thatconnect us to the team?
And that gets us away fromthinking about the task list as
well.
But the first thing is reallywhat does belonging mean?
(06:48):
What do we want people to feel?
Does it mean like we're happyevery day?
No, does it mean thateverything's going well all the
time?
No, we sort of usually have todispel a few myths along the way
.
What does it mean?
What are the things that aregoing to connect us?
What, if we all, of course,with our diverse backgrounds,
are going to be having slightlydifferent experiences, what's
the common thread that willconnect us?
And from that, once you startto define what it means and test
(07:10):
it out a bit.
Actually, your measures comefrom that.
You can then say how much do wefeel like this, how much are we
seeing these sorts of behaviors, how much are we hearing these
sorts of stories?
And so once you start to defineit and evolve it, I think
that's where your qualitativemeasures will come from.
But you don't start with themeasure sort of just pulled out
of a template.
(07:31):
What do you think?
Colin (07:33):
Yeah, I mean I agree with all of that.
I know what the research shows,Cath, is that when people feel
a sense of connectedness tosomething that's kind of bigger
than themselves, and then itincreases productivity, it
increases trust, it strengthensthe social bonds between people,
(07:53):
I think whenever people say,well, how do I create it?
Let's start with therelationships that people need
to build with each other.
I don't think manyorganizations are deliberate
about the way that they do that.
Yes, they might think about itwhen they're hiring people, but
then they just throw everybodytogether Now I have one offsite
and hope for the best.
Or they'll do some kind ofpersonality profile and then
(08:16):
think, okay, well, we've allshared our profiles.
Well, that's that Not really.
I mean, it's part of theprocess, but it's not the
complete process, and so I thinkpeople are always keen for
different ways to measureculture, and I think, certainly
in my experience, belonging youwould measure through
connectedness to the peoplearound you how much you can
(08:36):
trust others.
And I think you know trustdepends a lot on things like
authenticity, reliability,accountability, responsibility,
all of those kind of greatbehaviors.
Inclusion you mentioned 100%, Ithink, if people feel that they
have a voice and that theiropinion is valued.
Does that mean your opinion isright?
No, does that mean your opinionwill be used?
(08:58):
No, but if you feel that it'svalue, then you feel a sense of
connectedness and you feel asense of belonging.
I think, certainly, for me,assured vision is key to
belonging, because if there's asense of aspiration within the
group and it acts as a northstar, a guiding light, and you
(09:20):
all then know where you're going, where you're aiming, where
you're heading for, and I thinkthat really strengthens that
sense of here we are, we areconnected, we are in pursuit for
want of a better word of thatvision.
That's where we're, you know,that's where we're.
Ultimately, that's ourcollective aspiration.
And I think if people know whatthe vision is and understand
(09:42):
how their work connects to thatvision, now that's a really good
way of measuring belonging.
Cath (09:49):
So belonging is a social, collective concept.
You can't do it on your own andso in itself it starts to bind
us.
When we think about what it isand you draw on Owen Neeswood's
principles there it's aboutbeing connected to others and
connected to something greaterthan ourselves.
That sense of purpose, thosetwo things are really important,
and the more you do tostrengthen, deepen those, then
(10:15):
the belonging comes.
But you don't sort of createbelonging in a day.
It's almost, yeah, as you say,that connectedness that leads
there.
And this is very connected,wasn't it, to another question
about what does employeeengagement mean?
And within that belonging is areally big part of it.
And I think for me this senseof employee engagement is about
an emotional commitment to thework and I think sometimes
people don't really understandit's a deeper connection to what
(10:38):
we do.
And then discretionary effortcomes from that, when I can make
a choice myself about whether Ithink this is worth me putting
some more effort into it, aboutwhether I think this is worth me
putting some more effort intoit.
And engagement is often verymuch connected to, therefore,
the intrinsic motivators.
Of course, belonging being partof a group is part of our
intrinsic motivation.
(10:59):
So if you're thinking aboutemployee engagement yeah, it's a
huge part of it.
What's the strength of thegroup and how connected we feel
to it?
It's, then, about our sense ofpurpose, which is what we also,
then you know we need.
It connects into that belongingas well.
It's about autonomy, my voice.
Am I heard Again something wetalked about in connection with
(11:20):
belonging and this mastery?
Am I learning, am I growingthrough being part of this work
life, the job I do, the team I'min, the company I'm in, you
know?
Am I growing as a person?
Not just purely in knowledge,but you know in character and
who I am and the leader I'mbecoming and the teammate I'm
becoming, and so you know, forme, that's what engagement is
(11:42):
about.
Now, often I find engagementsurveys reduce things to a
number and you know thousands ofquestions that often make it
quite hard and people stay atquite a tactical level of how do
I just get my score up apercent next year, when I think
actually, the best way toimprove your engagement is to
come back to do this deeper work, and if you're investing in
(12:04):
that sense of purpose, autonomy,mastery and this social
belonging, if that's part ofwhat it feels like to do your
work, not an extra at the end ofthe day, but just it's part of
the work that you do theconversations you have, the
meetings you have then that's away to improving your engagement
scores over time.
But what's your thought whenpeople say, oh, how do I get
better employee engagement?
Colin (12:25):
I'm so glad you mentioned the emphasis on self there,
because I think that's almostalways missing from engagement
surveys.
They're too busy asking, andnot that it's incorrect to say
you know, kind of, do you get onwith your boss?
Do you like your boss, you know?
Do you know what the values are?
Do you know where you're going?
All that stuff's important, butyou've got to feel a sense of
progression.
I think it was Decky and Ryanwho did the research, maybe
(12:54):
early 2000, aboutself-determination, which was
about, as you mentioned, Cath,autonomy, competence, that sense
of growth and then relatedness.
And certainly, when I reflecton myself, when I was most
engaged in my job my last jobhere in the UK was with
Littlewood Shop Direct Group,probably the most engaged that
I've been because not only was Iinvested in the vision that the
organization had, the fact thatthey involved us in the
(13:15):
definition of culture, the factthat we had leaders who were
role models, actually had apathway for growth I recognized
that if I wanted to be part ofthis success, I had to bring the
right attitude to my work everysingle day, and this is a key
part of engagement and we forgetthat I felt that I was in
control of my destiny.
But I was also supported withinthat as well.
Even when I left, they dideverything that they could to
(13:39):
make sure that I left in theright way.
I was emigrating to New Zealandand they were so helpful to me
and that's all part of thatengagement process.
Too many questions drain, sorry,too many engagement.
Surveys actually drainengagement, because they ask 30,
40 questions when a simple sixto eight would do and it's you
know kind of.
How much do you care about theorganization?
(14:00):
How much do you care aboutwhere we're going?
How much do you know about it?
But also, how much do you careabout your job?
How supported do you feel toachieve?
Are you in control of decisionsyou make?
Do you have the support fromthe people around you?
These are all really, reallyimportant.
As you say, belonging plays apart in this, because they
determine attitude, theydetermine mindset and of course
(14:21):
the culture of the organizationis driven by the prevailing
mindset of its group.
And if that mindset is one ofgrowth, then the engagement is
always going to be high.
Cath (14:28):
You point out one of these situations that happens in
corporate life where you set outto improve engagement and
actually the very process youuse to find that out and to try
and improve engagementdisengages people.
And the same thing we see withperformance management and
appraisals where in fact thekind of overriding response is
demoralization and demotivationfrom an appraisal experience
(14:49):
which some companies arestarting to move away from, but
it still dominates in themajority.
Colin (14:53):
It still does.
I'll give you a very goodexample.
I worked for one organizationand their engagement was much,
much lower than they expected.
So they employed one of the bigfour consulting firms to come
in, who immediately put about 12graduates on the floor and it
absolutely killed engagement.
They did a pulse check and itgot worse.
No disrespect to the graduates,but it just wasn't what people
(15:15):
wanted to see from themanagement.
Cath (15:18):
Yeah, all the way it was done, of course, the way it was
experienced, the framing theenvironment for them to come
into no, it didn't work oneither side, I'm sure.
Yeah, so I think I find quite alot that because we get numbers
with these engagement surveysand people are desperate for
some numbers about cultures andwe can treat it like we do our
(15:39):
financial P&L, we actually getdrawn away from hang on what
really matters.
What should we be looking for?
And if you do an engagementsurvey, that's fine, but
actually that should just be thebeginning of then saying let me
find out more about what'sbehind this.
They're only really tellingabout the surface.
They might be giving an idea ofsome areas you want to research
and find out more.
Go and hear the stories thatlead to the scores that you get.
(16:02):
Yeah, that's where the workneeds to be done.
Colin (16:06):
Okay, next question what do boards need to do differently
to govern culture?
Cath (16:13):
Yeah.
So we have talked about this,haven't we, a couple of times.
Just this question, and it's adeep question.
It's a very complex questionbecause I think boards are in
transition from sort of some ofthe old fashioned, fairly rigid
ways in which they would govern,you know, again focusing on the
numbers, the finance, theprofit, the sales, the sort of
hard metrics, and then find thattheir company actually is
(16:35):
ruined by some retributionalcrisis that comes along that
they weren't kind of ready for,or they're not retaining talent.
I think you first of all have tolook at what's happening at the
moment in the board and how youare managing culture, and does
it even come up and how does itcome up?
And if it's coming up in thesame way that you might be
discussing other issues, then itdoesn't automatically mean
(16:55):
that's appropriate.
So the way you discuss thefinancial health of an
organization isn't going tonecessarily translate across
directly to how you are going todiscuss the culture.
We're back to metrics.
As always, we're never far awayfrom that.
What is it that will help theboard to have an idea of what
it's like to be in the workplace?
Can you really get that on justa document?
(17:16):
So for me it's really importantthat boards don't just sit in
the room now.
They actually need to have asense of the company that
they're governing, to know whatit feels like on the front line,
whatever it is that companydoes, that you can start to get
your own feel for theexperiences, that perhaps
different parts of thisorganization, different
environments that are there, sothat you've got something
yourself.
(17:36):
You're not blindly just lookingat whatever information comes to
you.
It's going to be too narrow andwe've never finished governing
culture or understanding it.
And I think one of the problemsis, as governance generally
increases, the amount ofdocuments that go to a board
increases and there's a dangerthat the space for culture
decreases if it's even on theagenda all the time and you just
(17:58):
can't discuss culture in 10minutes.
So I think this is a reason forboards to be doing meetings in
a different way, to be actuallymaking sure they're on site
somewhere, that actually, ratherthan look at a document, they
might be meeting a group ofemployees just having a chat, or
that actually part of themeeting is spending an hour just
getting a feel for what'shappening, getting a bit of a
(18:20):
deeper insight into some of thechallenges and some of the
opportunities that staff areenjoying or struggling with, to
then bring that back to whateverthe sort of latest report might
be telling you.
Colin (18:34):
Yeah, I read a report from Ernst Young that said a
quarter of boards never orrarely discuss culture, and it'd
be very easy to view that innegative light and go, wow, a
quarter still aren't talkingabout culture.
I was surprised that 75% are,and so I saw that as a positive.
I'm like great, 75% of boardsare now actively talking about
culture, and the UK governancecode is really really clear on
(18:56):
this.
It said that boards shouldmonitor and assess culture, and
where it doesn't feel that thereis a culture, that there's been
a culture built to deliver thestrategy, they should seek
assurance from management thatthey're going to address this.
And so what should they dodifferently?
Well, if they're one of thequarter, they should monitor and
(19:17):
assess culture, and if theydon't feel that they're getting
the right information frommanagement because often senior
leaders in those board meetingsthere's a tendency sometimes to
tell the board what they want tohear, and then something that
we talked about in a previouspodcast is, you know, have a
voice of the employees at thetable, just so that they can
kind of hear it from thecoalface.
(19:38):
So I think my advice for whatcould they do differently is
ensure that there is money inthe budget to spend on culture.
Ultimately, they're the onesthat have to approve budgets
right as presented to them bythe senior leadership team.
I'd be wanting to see where'smy line on culture, because
culture is the thing that'salways underinvested in, despite
all of the evidence thatdemonstrates its importance to
(19:59):
the delivery of strategy.
Cath (20:01):
Yeah, do you know, I'm just going to jump in because
I'm uncomfortable withmonitoring and assessing culture
, because that feels to me, youknow, this is like putting
videos on people and kind ofwatching, and it's quite a
punitive sort of language.
We're assessing culture.
I think we need to beunderstanding the culture, and
often where we've had errorscoming up or big crises coming
(20:23):
up, and whether that'sVolkswagen, whether that's at
the CBI last year, whetherthat's sort of in the MOD, I
think people thought they knewwhat was happening and they just
didn't know the deeper culture.
So I think if you come at thiswith a, we've got to monitor and
make sure it's okay.
People will feed theinformation that tells you it's
okay, but they won't feed youthe information of where people
(20:43):
are feeling oppressed or whereabuse is happening, and so I
think we have to be reallycareful about what we're looking
for, because otherwise we'rejust going to get the
information that tells us thatand then we get surprised by
something.
We actually want to understandwhat's difficult in the culture,
where there's less engagement,where there is perhaps, where
there are retention issues.
We actually want those tounderstand those.
(21:04):
No, culture is ever perfect, sowe've also never sort of
finished it.
So for me, the aim of a boardis to understand that company's
culture at an ever deeper levelin order to be able to then
steer and guide.
I think if you monitor andassess, you only get fed the
figures that people want you tosee and you're not really seeing
what's happening at the deeperlevel of what people believe,
(21:26):
what they experience and wherethe problems lie.
Colin (21:30):
Yeah, okay.
So our viewpoints differ here.
We don't often disagree onthings.
I don't think it's enoughanymore for boards to take a
back seat.
I think that they have to getbeneath the skin if they don't
feel that they're getting thefull story.
And the UK Post Office is agreat example.
Cbi is a great example of wherethey are all culpable.
They are all culpable forpresiding over that.
So I think, Cath, it's kind ofevolving and I think this is the
(21:58):
challenge that boards haveright now is what's the balance?
It's not about walking thefloor.
It's not about getting involvedin day-to-day operations Of
course it's not but it's askingdifferent questions to get the
different answers that maybethey've got in the past.
I think they can read engagementsurveys, you know.
That's something that they canask for the detail of to really
fully understand.
It's not something they've donein the past.
(22:18):
Boards is asked for the detail.
Often they'll just get the topline, the executive summary.
They can get the detailedreports, I mean, and then if
senior leaders choose tosanitize it, then it's their
integrity, it's their reputationat stake and the board have
asked the right question.
So I think you're right.
I think it's emerging.
I think boards should educatethemselves more on culture.
That's definitely what theyshould do.
(22:40):
And maybe what are thedifferent questions that I can
ask to maybe provide the answersthat I'm looking for, rather
than get into that deepmonitoring of day-to-day
operations and find out what'sgoing on?
Cath (22:52):
Yeah, interesting one, because I think it's hard to do
it quickly.
It's hard to get a sort ofreally kind of quick sense of a
culture.
Otherwise you really only lookat the surface.
But it's a never-ending job forboard and it's really important
they don't only look in acrisis as well, because these
things you know the flags comevery early.
If you're alert to those andnoticing those, even just how
(23:14):
the information is presented toyou will tell you quite a lot
whether the executive is sort oftrying to reassure and show you
everything's good.
Actually, that always makes mesuspicious, because there's sort
of almost no culture thatdoesn't have some slightly
difficult challenges in certainplaces.
And those are the interestingareas for you to think yeah,
this is how we strengthen ourculture, this is what we need
(23:35):
next to get it to be an evenbetter culture.
Good, okay.
So the next one.
There's a question I got askedrecently about if we start being
more empathetic leaders, if westart listening to colleagues
and you know to check on howthey're doing in a way that we
haven't before, if we startlistening to colleagues and you
know to check on how they'redoing in a way that we haven't
before, if we care for others inthe workplace.
How do we then manage whatmight unfold from that, what we
(24:00):
might unleash, I think, sort ofin brackets or sort of unspoken?
You know the emotions that Imight then be faced with and I
then don't know what to do with.
You know, how do we, how can wemanage this?
Colin (24:13):
Oh my gosh, what a great question.
And so immediately I thought ohmy gosh, this is what I do with
my kids.
I never asked them how theirday was, just in case I get 30
minutes of just blah thisteacher, this teacher and it's a
legitimate question.
For me, it comes back to thefact that we don't really teach
people how to manage becausethere's a fundamental skill of
active listening.
(24:34):
I think too often what we do iswe listen to respond.
You know kind of, rather thanto think deeply about what's
required, and often the responseis not what the person's
looking for.
I had this conversation withsomebody recently.
I said sometimes when peopleopen up to you, they're not
looking for you to fix what'swrong.
In some instances they justwant to tell you, they just want
(24:56):
to know that they've been heard.
So I think you know kind of theprocess of active listening,
which is something that wasdeveloped by Tanya Drollinger
again in the early 2000s.
This sense you know, senseprocess, respond, you know kind
of what someone's saying to meand how are they saying to it.
Then processing that againstwhat you know about that
individual should then informthe response, and that response
(25:20):
is one based on understanding.
So often we're listening, torespond, not to understand, and
so, for me, empathy is aboutrecognizing what that person
needs in that moment.
So it comes back to thefundamental of building really
strong relationships, andmanagers need almost an enhanced
toolkit, certainly, than thatthat they have right now.
(25:43):
I still think we may mentionthis on the podcast in the back
that we promote people based ontechnical expertise or length of
tenure rather than leadershipcapability, and too often people
will get into those roles andthey don't really know how to be
vulnerable, how to beempathetic, how to be
(26:03):
collaborative Some of those coreskills you need to actually
lead teams.
What do you think?
Cath (26:08):
Yeah, I agree with that.
Lead teams what do you think?
Yeah, I agree with that.
I think that there's a fear of,as you said, not not having the
right answer and not knowingwhat to say, and I don't think
that should be what you'refocusing on.
And so for me, it's think lessabout what's the right answer to
whatever I'm faced with, andjust more about how can you show
up to that conversation.
What do you want to bring tothat conversation in terms of,
(26:31):
yeah, yeah, listening, empathy,just valuing that person, giving
them your time and I thinkthere is a fear of this time
business as well that, oh my God, I haven't got time for this,
and that in itself is going tohurt you.
If you haven't got time forother people, if you haven't got
time for people in your team,they're going to be engaged less
, you're going to get less fromthem.
(26:54):
They're going to be less ableto sort of share all their best
ideas.
So it's a short-term win on thetime front.
That was going to hurt you inthe long term.
So I think you're right.
Just quality of listening goessuch a long way.
Thinking about, perhaps, in thisconversation, what do we each
need for this conversation.
So what does the other personwant?
Let's focus on the listening.
What do I need to be able to dothat?
I need to be able to let go ofsome things in my mind.
(27:16):
I need to be able to handle theuncertainty and the fact that I
haven't got an answer for itand I don't need an answer for
it.
And I'm going to have to let goof perhaps some discomfort if
I'm faced with emotions andtherefore tap into a few of my
own.
I think there's a big fear ofemotions here because we've gone
so long sort of suppressingthem, not having them as part of
the workplace and thinkingabout what will make this a
(27:40):
useful conversation on bothsides.
If it's not about the answer,what is it?
It's, then, about thatenvironment you set the
conversation up in and how youboth show up to it, and the
respect, the listening thatcomes from that can be very
powerful.
But it's about a differentmindset than how am I going to
solve this problem, how am Igoing to deliver something to
the client?
That's just not helpful anymore.
(28:02):
So we have to switch ourmindset and be aware and
adaptable enough to do that andto sit with some of our own
discomfort that might come fromwhat we hear as well, so it's
actually a fantastic learningopportunity.
To put yourself in thatsituation and caring for your
employees, I think is alwaysgoing to be a part of what makes
you a great leader and a greatperson to work with.
Colin (28:22):
Good, okay.
Last question, short, sharp Dowe really need a vision or a
purpose?
Cath (28:28):
I think we've actually answered that, haven't we in the
course of various otherquestions, because you know, as
you said, part of belonging isthat we belong, we're connected
to each other and we'reconnected to a greater purpose.
If you want to work in a team,if you want to do any work that
requires collaboration, thatrequires the sharing of
different ideas and perspectivesand skills, then yes, you do.
(28:52):
It's what brings you together,it's what brings meaning to your
work, it's what brings joy toyour work, it's what will help
you get the best out of peopleand feel that you're spending
your time doing somethingworthwhile.
So it's a big yes.
Colin (29:05):
It's a huge yes.
The purpose is the role thatthe company exists to fill in
the world or the country,wherever it might be, and a
vision is a sense of aspiration.
This is what we want to become,this is where we're going to,
and if you want to ignite joy,as Cath said, if you want to
light a fire inside people andreally get them excited about
what the future holds, youdefinitely need one.
(29:28):
All right, fabulous episodeAnswered, loads of questions,
great chat.
Kat Looking forward to nexttime?
Cath (29:33):
Yeah, me too.
Thanks, very much Thanks forlistening to today's Inside Out
Culture.
Colin (29:39):
Podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested.
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Hello everybody and welcome toanother episode of the Inside
Out Culture Podcast.
And today Cath and I are in astudio together, buried
somewhere underneath kind ofNorth London at the end of
Oxford Street, somewhere we gotshepherded down here.
I literally have no idea wherewe are.
Cath (00:49):
I know we're in a cellar in Soho, Like you say.
We're finding that could meanso many things.
Colin (00:54):
So many things, so many things.
Yeah, I don't want to move anyof the furniture, just in case.
How?
Cath (00:58):
have you been All good, all good, yeah, good, all good,
yeah.
So much interest in all thethings that we talk about, think
about, and so, yeah, we've justbeen catching up, haven't we
ahead of this, with all thedifferent things we're seeing
across sport, across business.
So lots going on, lots going on.
And how are you enjoying beingin the UK?
Colin (01:19):
Yes, good, I mean, the planning to move back here,
which is start of next year nowis moving the pace and it's
increasing the stress.
So I, the planning to move backhere, which is the start of
next year, now is moving thepace and it's increasing the
stress.
So I find myself having tofollow my own advice, Cath or
not, about burnout and you know,making time for oneself and
actually, you know, kind ofspending some time just kind of
relaxing and reading.
(01:40):
So yeah, it's been nice to dothat.
Cath (01:42):
As well as your own book, which I'm sure you're rereading,
but hopefully lots of othersare reading.
What else?
Yeah, what's been on yourreading list?
What else has got you thinking?
Colin (01:51):
Yes, I'm here to promote the book Detox your Culture, but
that doesn't mean you stopreading other people's books.
So I've been reading CaitlinMoran.
Caitlin Moran's book what AboutMen?
And this comes up in our work alot.
Cath is kind of male behaviorsand obviously we see a lot of
this in the papers and the media, particularly with regards to
(02:12):
our last episode was on themilitary we covered a little bit
about male behavior and so shekind of delves into the
psychology of men and howthey're different for women,
obviously physiologicallydifferent, but also I think the
key message is just howdifferently boys are raised than
girls.
Now this is changing becauseparents are changing.
(02:32):
I see this with our ownchildren and certainly the
conversations I have with my son.
I never had with my dad likeever, but it's going to take a
while for that to filter intothe workplace.
So, yeah, that's been reallyinteresting to read.
It's again a completelydifferent perspective.
I like to read books thatreally challenge me, challenge
my way of thinking, but alsoeducate me as well.
(02:53):
How about you, Cath?
Cath (02:54):
Yeah, I'm actually going to put that on my list.
I'm quite intrigued about thatas a parent to a boy and a girl.
So I've just read the latestbook that Oliver Berkman wrote.
I was really struck about ayear ago, actually, I read 4,000
Weeks, which I found verypowerful this whole concept that
life on average lasts 4,000weeks, and it really plays with
(03:16):
our perceptions of time, howwe're always trying to be more
productive and the moreproductivity tools we use, the
busier and more stressed out weget and the less productive we
are.
And I think this conundrum I seeeverywhere this desperation to
manage time better so I cansqueeze more in, and, yeah, it
(03:37):
never seems to make the qualityof work better, certainly
doesn't seem to make peoplehealthier or able to think
freely with their own ideas andto really become anything other
than robots, and so I feel thisyeah, lots of people want the
answer.
Tell me how to do this, how toarrange my life, how to get more
done, how to be a better leader, and they just accumulate more
(03:58):
tasks.
And it's madness.
We can't do this.
We're all actually becomingless clever, less smart because
of how we're working, and so Ifind his books really
thought-provoking, and the lastone is called Meditations for
Mortals, and again he sort ofprods in our habits lots of ways
of the workplace which areactually making us less smart
and less well, and Iincreasingly feel, through my
(04:21):
work, the True Athlete Projectin Sport, the power of
mindfulness to help athletesbecome better teammates, better
aware of what they can dothrough sport, who they're
becoming through sport, ratherthan just some sporting machine
for a short period of time.
And so I think there is so muchscope for us to be thinking
about how we become more mindfulin the workplace as well.
Colin (04:41):
Fabulous.
Well, today's episode is allabout questions and we've got
plenty to get stuck into, solet's get started with the first
one, Cath, so interesting one.
We talked a lot about belongingon the podcast and we talked
about Owen Eastwood's book onbelonging, and the question is
how do we measure belonging?
Cath (04:59):
Yeah, it's an interesting one and it comes back to the
theme of constantly wanting tomeasure something and this sense
of culture.
How do I get my hands on it insome sort of tangible way?
I correctly mentioned OwenEastwood's brilliant book on
belonging, which I completelyrecommend again to anyone.
(05:19):
I think first of all, beforeyou want to sort of come out
with what's the spreadsheet thatI want to use, rather than
start with a measuring template,I think we first of all, before
you, want to sort of come outwith what's the spreadsheet that
I want to use, rather thanstart with a measuring template,
I think we need to go back andthink about what does belonging
mean?
It's a term that's used quite alot in the inclusion world
because inclusion feels a littlebit of an abstract word, it's
not very warm and don't reallyconnect with it, often not very
(05:42):
human, and so it's crept into.
Often people talk aboutdiversity, inclusion and
belonging.
In a sense, I think we can allconnect to a moment when in our
lives we thought we belonged anda moment when we probably
thought we didn't belong, andthen we need to start breaking
down.
But in our context, what doesit mean for our team to belong.
I think people would define itas something slightly different
(06:03):
depending on the work, the widerculture around them, but it is
very much about an experience ofbelonging.
Therefore, we have tounderstand that experiences
can't be captured in a fewnumbers.
We can definitely start tounderstand them by getting
people's views, by listening, bytelling stories and being alert
(06:26):
to what are the stories thatpeople tell in your team and
thinking about what is thatexperience like?
What does it feel like to bepart of our team, getting those
sorts of qualitative inputs anda sense of the values?
What are the things thatconnect us to the team?
And that gets us away fromthinking about the task list as
well.
But the first thing is reallywhat does belonging mean?
(06:48):
What do we want people to feel?
Does it mean like we're happyevery day?
No, does it mean thateverything's going well all the
time?
No, we sort of usually have todispel a few myths along the way
.
What does it mean?
What are the things that aregoing to connect us?
What, if we all, of course,with our diverse backgrounds,
are going to be having slightlydifferent experiences, what's
the common thread that willconnect us?
And from that, once you startto define what it means and test
(07:10):
it out a bit.
Actually, your measures comefrom that.
You can then say how much do wefeel like this, how much are we
seeing these sorts of behaviors, how much are we hearing these
sorts of stories?
And so once you start to defineit and evolve it, I think
that's where your qualitativemeasures will come from.
But you don't start with themeasure sort of just pulled out
of a template.
(07:31):
What do you think?
Colin (07:33):
Yeah, I mean I agree with all of that.
I know what the research shows,Cath, is that when people feel
a sense of connectedness tosomething that's kind of bigger
than themselves, and then itincreases productivity, it
increases trust, it strengthensthe social bonds between people,
(07:53):
I think whenever people say,well, how do I create it?
Let's start with therelationships that people need
to build with each other.
I don't think manyorganizations are deliberate
about the way that they do that.
Yes, they might think about itwhen they're hiring people, but
then they just throw everybodytogether Now I have one offsite
and hope for the best.
Or they'll do some kind ofpersonality profile and then
(08:16):
think, okay, well, we've allshared our profiles.
Well, that's that Not really.
I mean, it's part of theprocess, but it's not the
complete process, and so I thinkpeople are always keen for
different ways to measureculture, and I think, certainly
in my experience, belonging youwould measure through
connectedness to the peoplearound you how much you can
(08:36):
trust others.
And I think you know trustdepends a lot on things like
authenticity, reliability,accountability, responsibility,
all of those kind of greatbehaviors.
Inclusion you mentioned 100%, Ithink, if people feel that they
have a voice and that theiropinion is valued.
Does that mean your opinion isright?
No, does that mean your opinionwill be used?
(08:58):
No, but if you feel that it'svalue, then you feel a sense of
connectedness and you feel asense of belonging.
I think, certainly, for me,assured vision is key to
belonging, because if there's asense of aspiration within the
group and it acts as a northstar, a guiding light, and you
(09:20):
all then know where you're going, where you're aiming, where
you're heading for, and I thinkthat really strengthens that
sense of here we are, we areconnected, we are in pursuit for
want of a better word of thatvision.
That's where we're, you know,that's where we're.
Ultimately, that's ourcollective aspiration.
And I think if people know whatthe vision is and understand
(09:42):
how their work connects to thatvision, now that's a really good
way of measuring belonging.
Cath (09:49):
So belonging is a social, collective concept.
You can't do it on your own andso in itself it starts to bind
us.
When we think about what it isand you draw on Owen Neeswood's
principles there it's aboutbeing connected to others and
connected to something greaterthan ourselves.
That sense of purpose, thosetwo things are really important,
and the more you do tostrengthen, deepen those, then
(10:15):
the belonging comes.
But you don't sort of createbelonging in a day.
It's almost, yeah, as you say,that connectedness that leads
there.
And this is very connected,wasn't it, to another question
about what does employeeengagement mean?
And within that belonging is areally big part of it.
And I think for me this senseof employee engagement is about
an emotional commitment to thework and I think sometimes
people don't really understandit's a deeper connection to what
(10:38):
we do.
And then discretionary effortcomes from that, when I can make
a choice myself about whether Ithink this is worth me putting
some more effort into it, aboutwhether I think this is worth me
putting some more effort intoit.
And engagement is often verymuch connected to, therefore,
the intrinsic motivators.
Of course, belonging being partof a group is part of our
intrinsic motivation.
(10:59):
So if you're thinking aboutemployee engagement yeah, it's a
huge part of it.
What's the strength of thegroup and how connected we feel
to it?
It's, then, about our sense ofpurpose, which is what we also,
then you know we need.
It connects into that belongingas well.
It's about autonomy, my voice.
Am I heard Again something wetalked about in connection with
(11:20):
belonging and this mastery?
Am I learning, am I growingthrough being part of this work
life, the job I do, the team I'min, the company I'm in, you
know?
Am I growing as a person?
Not just purely in knowledge,but you know in character and
who I am and the leader I'mbecoming and the teammate I'm
becoming, and so you know, forme, that's what engagement is
(11:42):
about.
Now, often I find engagementsurveys reduce things to a
number and you know thousands ofquestions that often make it
quite hard and people stay atquite a tactical level of how do
I just get my score up apercent next year, when I think
actually, the best way toimprove your engagement is to
come back to do this deeper work, and if you're investing in
(12:04):
that sense of purpose, autonomy,mastery and this social
belonging, if that's part ofwhat it feels like to do your
work, not an extra at the end ofthe day, but just it's part of
the work that you do theconversations you have, the
meetings you have then that's away to improving your engagement
scores over time.
But what's your thought whenpeople say, oh, how do I get
better employee engagement?
Colin (12:25):
I'm so glad you mentioned the emphasis on self there,
because I think that's almostalways missing from engagement
surveys.
They're too busy asking, andnot that it's incorrect to say
you know, kind of, do you get onwith your boss?
Do you like your boss, you know?
Do you know what the values are?
Do you know where you're going?
All that stuff's important, butyou've got to feel a sense of
progression.
I think it was Decky and Ryanwho did the research, maybe
(12:54):
early 2000, aboutself-determination, which was
about, as you mentioned, Cath,autonomy, competence, that sense
of growth and then relatedness.
And certainly, when I reflecton myself, when I was most
engaged in my job my last jobhere in the UK was with
Littlewood Shop Direct Group,probably the most engaged that
I've been because not only was Iinvested in the vision that the
organization had, the fact thatthey involved us in the
(13:15):
definition of culture, the factthat we had leaders who were
role models, actually had apathway for growth I recognized
that if I wanted to be part ofthis success, I had to bring the
right attitude to my work everysingle day, and this is a key
part of engagement and we forgetthat I felt that I was in
control of my destiny.
But I was also supported withinthat as well.
Even when I left, they dideverything that they could to
(13:39):
make sure that I left in theright way.
I was emigrating to New Zealandand they were so helpful to me
and that's all part of thatengagement process.
Too many questions drain, sorry,too many engagement.
Surveys actually drainengagement, because they ask 30,
40 questions when a simple sixto eight would do and it's you
know kind of.
How much do you care about theorganization?
(14:00):
How much do you care aboutwhere we're going?
How much do you know about it?
But also, how much do you careabout your job?
How supported do you feel toachieve?
Are you in control of decisionsyou make?
Do you have the support fromthe people around you?
These are all really, reallyimportant.
As you say, belonging plays apart in this, because they
determine attitude, theydetermine mindset and of course
(14:21):
the culture of the organizationis driven by the prevailing
mindset of its group.
And if that mindset is one ofgrowth, then the engagement is
always going to be high.
Cath (14:28):
You point out one of these situations that happens in
corporate life where you set outto improve engagement and
actually the very process youuse to find that out and to try
and improve engagementdisengages people.
And the same thing we see withperformance management and
appraisals where in fact thekind of overriding response is
demoralization and demotivationfrom an appraisal experience
(14:49):
which some companies arestarting to move away from, but
it still dominates in themajority.
Colin (14:53):
It still does.
I'll give you a very goodexample.
I worked for one organizationand their engagement was much,
much lower than they expected.
So they employed one of the bigfour consulting firms to come
in, who immediately put about 12graduates on the floor and it
absolutely killed engagement.
They did a pulse check and itgot worse.
No disrespect to the graduates,but it just wasn't what people
(15:15):
wanted to see from themanagement.
Cath (15:18):
Yeah, all the way it was done, of course, the way it was
experienced, the framing theenvironment for them to come
into no, it didn't work oneither side, I'm sure.
Yeah, so I think I find quite alot that because we get numbers
with these engagement surveysand people are desperate for
some numbers about cultures andwe can treat it like we do our
(15:39):
financial P&L, we actually getdrawn away from hang on what
really matters.
What should we be looking for?
And if you do an engagementsurvey, that's fine, but
actually that should just be thebeginning of then saying let me
find out more about what'sbehind this.
They're only really tellingabout the surface.
They might be giving an idea ofsome areas you want to research
and find out more.
Go and hear the stories thatlead to the scores that you get.
(16:02):
Yeah, that's where the workneeds to be done.
Colin (16:06):
Okay, next question what do boards need to do differently
to govern culture?
Cath (16:13):
Yeah.
So we have talked about this,haven't we, a couple of times.
Just this question, and it's adeep question.
It's a very complex questionbecause I think boards are in
transition from sort of some ofthe old fashioned, fairly rigid
ways in which they would govern,you know, again focusing on the
numbers, the finance, theprofit, the sales, the sort of
hard metrics, and then find thattheir company actually is
(16:35):
ruined by some retributionalcrisis that comes along that
they weren't kind of ready for,or they're not retaining talent.
I think you first of all have tolook at what's happening at the
moment in the board and how youare managing culture, and does
it even come up and how does itcome up?
And if it's coming up in thesame way that you might be
discussing other issues, then itdoesn't automatically mean
(16:55):
that's appropriate.
So the way you discuss thefinancial health of an
organization isn't going tonecessarily translate across
directly to how you are going todiscuss the culture.
We're back to metrics.
As always, we're never far awayfrom that.
What is it that will help theboard to have an idea of what
it's like to be in the workplace?
Can you really get that on justa document?
(17:16):
So for me it's really importantthat boards don't just sit in
the room now.
They actually need to have asense of the company that
they're governing, to know whatit feels like on the front line,
whatever it is that companydoes, that you can start to get
your own feel for theexperiences, that perhaps
different parts of thisorganization, different
environments that are there, sothat you've got something
yourself.
(17:36):
You're not blindly just lookingat whatever information comes to
you.
It's going to be too narrow andwe've never finished governing
culture or understanding it.
And I think one of the problemsis, as governance generally
increases, the amount ofdocuments that go to a board
increases and there's a dangerthat the space for culture
decreases if it's even on theagenda all the time and you just
(17:58):
can't discuss culture in 10minutes.
So I think this is a reason forboards to be doing meetings in
a different way, to be actuallymaking sure they're on site
somewhere, that actually, ratherthan look at a document, they
might be meeting a group ofemployees just having a chat, or
that actually part of themeeting is spending an hour just
getting a feel for what'shappening, getting a bit of a
(18:20):
deeper insight into some of thechallenges and some of the
opportunities that staff areenjoying or struggling with, to
then bring that back to whateverthe sort of latest report might
be telling you.
Colin (18:34):
Yeah, I read a report from Ernst Young that said a
quarter of boards never orrarely discuss culture, and it'd
be very easy to view that innegative light and go, wow, a
quarter still aren't talkingabout culture.
I was surprised that 75% are,and so I saw that as a positive.
I'm like great, 75% of boardsare now actively talking about
culture, and the UK governancecode is really really clear on
(18:56):
this.
It said that boards shouldmonitor and assess culture, and
where it doesn't feel that thereis a culture, that there's been
a culture built to deliver thestrategy, they should seek
assurance from management thatthey're going to address this.
And so what should they dodifferently?
Well, if they're one of thequarter, they should monitor and
(19:17):
assess culture, and if theydon't feel that they're getting
the right information frommanagement because often senior
leaders in those board meetingsthere's a tendency sometimes to
tell the board what they want tohear, and then something that
we talked about in a previouspodcast is, you know, have a
voice of the employees at thetable, just so that they can
kind of hear it from thecoalface.
(19:38):
So I think my advice for whatcould they do differently is
ensure that there is money inthe budget to spend on culture.
Ultimately, they're the onesthat have to approve budgets
right as presented to them bythe senior leadership team.
I'd be wanting to see where'smy line on culture, because
culture is the thing that'salways underinvested in, despite
all of the evidence thatdemonstrates its importance to
(19:59):
the delivery of strategy.
Cath (20:01):
Yeah, do you know, I'm just going to jump in because
I'm uncomfortable withmonitoring and assessing culture
, because that feels to me, youknow, this is like putting
videos on people and kind ofwatching, and it's quite a
punitive sort of language.
We're assessing culture.
I think we need to beunderstanding the culture, and
often where we've had errorscoming up or big crises coming
(20:23):
up, and whether that'sVolkswagen, whether that's at
the CBI last year, whetherthat's sort of in the MOD, I
think people thought they knewwhat was happening and they just
didn't know the deeper culture.
So I think if you come at thiswith a, we've got to monitor and
make sure it's okay.
People will feed theinformation that tells you it's
okay, but they won't feed youthe information of where people
(20:43):
are feeling oppressed or whereabuse is happening, and so I
think we have to be reallycareful about what we're looking
for, because otherwise we'rejust going to get the
information that tells us thatand then we get surprised by
something.
We actually want to understandwhat's difficult in the culture,
where there's less engagement,where there is perhaps, where
there are retention issues.
We actually want those tounderstand those.
(21:04):
No, culture is ever perfect, sowe've also never sort of
finished it.
So for me, the aim of a boardis to understand that company's
culture at an ever deeper levelin order to be able to then
steer and guide.
I think if you monitor andassess, you only get fed the
figures that people want you tosee and you're not really seeing
what's happening at the deeperlevel of what people believe,
(21:26):
what they experience and wherethe problems lie.
Colin (21:30):
Yeah, okay.
So our viewpoints differ here.
We don't often disagree onthings.
I don't think it's enoughanymore for boards to take a
back seat.
I think that they have to getbeneath the skin if they don't
feel that they're getting thefull story.
And the UK Post Office is agreat example.
Cbi is a great example of wherethey are all culpable.
They are all culpable forpresiding over that.
So I think, Cath, it's kind ofevolving and I think this is the
(21:58):
challenge that boards haveright now is what's the balance?
It's not about walking thefloor.
It's not about getting involvedin day-to-day operations Of
course it's not but it's askingdifferent questions to get the
different answers that maybethey've got in the past.
I think they can read engagementsurveys, you know.
That's something that they canask for the detail of to really
fully understand.
It's not something they've donein the past.
(22:18):
Boards is asked for the detail.
Often they'll just get the topline, the executive summary.
They can get the detailedreports, I mean, and then if
senior leaders choose tosanitize it, then it's their
integrity, it's their reputationat stake and the board have
asked the right question.
So I think you're right.
I think it's emerging.
I think boards should educatethemselves more on culture.
That's definitely what theyshould do.
(22:40):
And maybe what are thedifferent questions that I can
ask to maybe provide the answersthat I'm looking for, rather
than get into that deepmonitoring of day-to-day
operations and find out what'sgoing on?
Cath (22:52):
Yeah, interesting one, because I think it's hard to do
it quickly.
It's hard to get a sort ofreally kind of quick sense of a
culture.
Otherwise you really only lookat the surface.
But it's a never-ending job forboard and it's really important
they don't only look in acrisis as well, because these
things you know the flags comevery early.
If you're alert to those andnoticing those, even just how
(23:14):
the information is presented toyou will tell you quite a lot
whether the executive is sort oftrying to reassure and show you
everything's good.
Actually, that always makes mesuspicious, because there's sort
of almost no culture thatdoesn't have some slightly
difficult challenges in certainplaces.
And those are the interestingareas for you to think yeah,
this is how we strengthen ourculture, this is what we need
(23:35):
next to get it to be an evenbetter culture.
Good, okay.
So the next one.
There's a question I got askedrecently about if we start being
more empathetic leaders, if westart listening to colleagues
and you know to check on howthey're doing in a way that we
haven't before, if we startlistening to colleagues and you
know to check on how they'redoing in a way that we haven't
before, if we care for others inthe workplace.
How do we then manage whatmight unfold from that, what we
(24:00):
might unleash, I think, sort ofin brackets or sort of unspoken?
You know the emotions that Imight then be faced with and I
then don't know what to do with.
You know, how do we, how can wemanage this?
Colin (24:13):
Oh my gosh, what a great question.
And so immediately I thought ohmy gosh, this is what I do with
my kids.
I never asked them how theirday was, just in case I get 30
minutes of just blah thisteacher, this teacher and it's a
legitimate question.
For me, it comes back to thefact that we don't really teach
people how to manage becausethere's a fundamental skill of
active listening.
(24:34):
I think too often what we do iswe listen to respond.
You know kind of, rather thanto think deeply about what's
required, and often the responseis not what the person's
looking for.
I had this conversation withsomebody recently.
I said sometimes when peopleopen up to you, they're not
looking for you to fix what'swrong.
In some instances they justwant to tell you, they just want
(24:56):
to know that they've been heard.
So I think you know kind of theprocess of active listening,
which is something that wasdeveloped by Tanya Drollinger
again in the early 2000s.
This sense you know, senseprocess, respond, you know kind
of what someone's saying to meand how are they saying to it.
Then processing that againstwhat you know about that
individual should then informthe response, and that response
(25:20):
is one based on understanding.
So often we're listening, torespond, not to understand, and
so, for me, empathy is aboutrecognizing what that person
needs in that moment.
So it comes back to thefundamental of building really
strong relationships, andmanagers need almost an enhanced
toolkit, certainly, than thatthat they have right now.
(25:43):
I still think we may mentionthis on the podcast in the back
that we promote people based ontechnical expertise or length of
tenure rather than leadershipcapability, and too often people
will get into those roles andthey don't really know how to be
vulnerable, how to beempathetic, how to be
(26:03):
collaborative Some of those coreskills you need to actually
lead teams.
What do you think?
Cath (26:08):
Yeah, I agree with that.
Lead teams what do you think?
Yeah, I agree with that.
I think that there's a fear of,as you said, not not having the
right answer and not knowingwhat to say, and I don't think
that should be what you'refocusing on.
And so for me, it's think lessabout what's the right answer to
whatever I'm faced with, andjust more about how can you show
up to that conversation.
What do you want to bring tothat conversation in terms of,
(26:31):
yeah, yeah, listening, empathy,just valuing that person, giving
them your time and I thinkthere is a fear of this time
business as well that, oh my God, I haven't got time for this,
and that in itself is going tohurt you.
If you haven't got time forother people, if you haven't got
time for people in your team,they're going to be engaged less
, you're going to get less fromthem.
(26:54):
They're going to be less ableto sort of share all their best
ideas.
So it's a short-term win on thetime front.
That was going to hurt you inthe long term.
So I think you're right.
Just quality of listening goessuch a long way.
Thinking about, perhaps, in thisconversation, what do we each
need for this conversation.
So what does the other personwant?
Let's focus on the listening.
What do I need to be able to dothat?
I need to be able to let go ofsome things in my mind.
(27:16):
I need to be able to handle theuncertainty and the fact that I
haven't got an answer for itand I don't need an answer for
it.
And I'm going to have to let goof perhaps some discomfort if
I'm faced with emotions andtherefore tap into a few of my
own.
I think there's a big fear ofemotions here because we've gone
so long sort of suppressingthem, not having them as part of
the workplace and thinkingabout what will make this a
(27:40):
useful conversation on bothsides.
If it's not about the answer,what is it?
It's, then, about thatenvironment you set the
conversation up in and how youboth show up to it, and the
respect, the listening thatcomes from that can be very
powerful.
But it's about a differentmindset than how am I going to
solve this problem, how am Igoing to deliver something to
the client?
That's just not helpful anymore.
(28:02):
So we have to switch ourmindset and be aware and
adaptable enough to do that andto sit with some of our own
discomfort that might come fromwhat we hear as well, so it's
actually a fantastic learningopportunity.
To put yourself in thatsituation and caring for your
employees, I think is alwaysgoing to be a part of what makes
you a great leader and a greatperson to work with.
Colin (28:22):
Good, okay.
Last question, short, sharp Dowe really need a vision or a
purpose?
Cath (28:28):
I think we've actually answered that, haven't we in the
course of various otherquestions, because you know, as
you said, part of belonging isthat we belong, we're connected
to each other and we'reconnected to a greater purpose.
If you want to work in a team,if you want to do any work that
requires collaboration, thatrequires the sharing of
different ideas and perspectivesand skills, then yes, you do.
(28:52):
It's what brings you together,it's what brings meaning to your
work, it's what brings joy toyour work, it's what will help
you get the best out of peopleand feel that you're spending
your time doing somethingworthwhile.
So it's a big yes.
Colin (29:05):
It's a huge yes.
The purpose is the role thatthe company exists to fill in
the world or the country,wherever it might be, and a
vision is a sense of aspiration.
This is what we want to become,this is where we're going to,
and if you want to ignite joy,as Cath said, if you want to
light a fire inside people andreally get them excited about
what the future holds, youdefinitely need one.
(29:28):
All right, fabulous episodeAnswered, loads of questions,
great chat.
Kat Looking forward to nexttime?
Cath (29:33):
Yeah, me too.
Thanks, very much Thanks forlistening to today's Inside Out
Culture.
Colin (29:39):
Podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!