May 8, 2025 • 31 mins
On this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast we are answering your questions. The issues that people face differ from industry to industry and business to business, so we look at the most pressing issues and provide insights into the things that you can do.
Specifically we look at:
- Do we need to go back to recognising 'strong leaders' more in our organisations given current trends globally?
- What ‘inspiring people’ looks like in practice
- How to translate a vision and purpose into the culture?
- How to encourage people back to the office
- How can we manage uncertainty better?
Don't forget that you can submit your questions for our next questions episode by using the email address below.
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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.
Instagram: @insideoutculture
Email your questions to: insideoutculture@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colin (00:02):
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis and I'm Cath.
Cath (00:13):
Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Cath (00:33):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast, and todayis our first questions episode
for 2025.
And we've been gatheringquestions.
We've got quite a few thatwe've had come in, ones that
we've heard.
And we've been gatheringquestions, we've got quite a few
that we've had come in, onesthat we've heard, and, yeah,
we've got some very topical ones, I think, to discuss today,
colin, haven't we?
Colin (00:52):
Yeah, very topical.
The first question is supertopical and we're not going to
mention any names, but I thinkpeople will recognize where
we're going with this one.
So the first question, Cath,over to you is do we need to go
back to recognizing strongleaders more in our organization
, given the current trendsglobally?
Cath (01:11):
Yes, and I've heard this a few times, I've heard it
whispered and I've heard itasked loudly and one wonders if
we ever really went away from it.
But I think it raises the needto actually think about defining
the leadership we want in ourorganizations, defining the
leadership we need in order tobe successful for us.
(01:33):
So, rather than just lookingand going oh look, there's a
very loud, strong man leaderover there.
That must be what we need.
I think it's really importantto actually look at how our
organizations run and actually,with the you know, increase in
challenges, the sort of increasein unpredictability, the need
(01:53):
to support people, to work inperhaps more, you know,
challenging personal contexts,hybrid working making lives a
little more complicated, whichis something we'll come back to
in a bit what sort of leadersrequired for quite a complex
environment?
I don't think it is this sort ofheroic strength leading from
the front, because I think weneed much more of a nuanced
(02:13):
approach.
We need to be thinking aboutwhat does that organization need
, not?
What am I here to do to save itto?
What are my ideas so that it'sall about me at the top?
I think we've come to often seeheroic leadership as something
that is outdated, that is alsoonly short-term impactful, if
(02:37):
it's impactful at all, and Ithink most organizations would
do well to be thinking aboutactually what's going to help us
sustain over 10 years, 20 years, 50 years actually what's going
to help us sustain over 10years, 20 years, 50 years?
And they'll probably find thatthey need some different
elements of the leadership thanpure raw strength.
What do you think?
Colin (02:52):
Yeah, I agree, I yeah, kind of strong means different
things in different contexts.
I come back to the research,and what the research says is
that what most employers arelooking for in their leaders is
emotional intelligence, andoften the view or the view in
the past, Cath, is this is kindof the soft stuff that you know,
(03:13):
the soft skills that everybodytalks about.
But emotionally intelligentleaders find ways to communicate
with all people in all mannerof ways.
They put themselves intoservice to others.
They are vulnerable when theybelieve it will help other
people.
They find ways to connect andbuild relationships.
They put themselves on thefront line so they're not afraid
(03:35):
to roll up their sleeves whenthings aren't going as well.
They listen empathetically.
All of these things are reallyreally difficult to do and for
me, the definition of strengthis recognizing when you need to
step in and be someone who maybeyou aren't more naturally, and
there's a lot that we can learnfrom ourselves.
I used to joke all the time whenI first started speaking about
(03:57):
I don't know, eight or nineyears ago.
I used to joke all the timeabout how do you know when a
project's failing, they bring ina middle-aged man to fix it,
because that was the view thereis.
Only a man can drag us out ofthis and fix it, when actually
the opposite was required, andit's not gender-based.
What we needed was someone whohad compassion, who could build
a relationship, who could takethe time to understand, who
(04:19):
didn't press the panic button.
But I think you're right.
I think that definition ofleadership in different contexts
is really important.
I like the Ernest Hemingwayquote.
He said that the world and itseems irrelevant for right now
the world breaks everyone andafterward some are strong at the
broken places, and I thinkthat's where we are within our
(04:40):
ever-evolving world right now iswhat can we learn about
ourselves, given the contextthat we're in right now, such
that it helps us to be better inthe future?
Cath (04:48):
Yeah, so we're actually thinking.
Strong at what?
Strong in giving clarity, yeah.
Strong in defining a clearpurpose, strong in listening
those sorts of strengths wouldbe good.
But just as the concept and thedefinition of resilience has
changed from one of physicalstrength to being one that's
much more around adaptability,flexibility, understanding and
(05:13):
being able to sort of developourselves in adversity, I think
that's we need to redefine whatstrong leaders look like, don't
we?
But I find that adjective isprobably not helpful because we
still leap to that kind ofphysical, heroic definition.
Colin (05:28):
So, yeah, that's a great distinction.
It's one of emotional strengthrather than physical strength.
Yeah, I agree with that.
Cath (05:38):
And maybe that would be quite useful.
You know, sometimes I try anduse strong language to think
about well, actually, in orderto get high performance, we need
compassion and emotionalintelligence in order to sort of
bring people along.
But change definitions as we goand just challenge that.
What do we mean by strongleadership and what might
(05:58):
actually be the qualities weneed more of Good?
So we're going to build a bitmore on that with this next
question that came to you, whichwas to say, as a leader saying,
or perhaps a line manager aswell, saying, I constantly am
told that I need to inspire myteam, what does this look like?
That's a bit of a help question.
Colin (06:17):
Yeah, it was, and I think many managers find themselves
in that position Is they'reoften told your job is to
inspire and motivate a team.
You've got to do all this otherstuff over to the side, but
when you're a people manager,you have to inspire and motivate
your team.
And yes, I spoke to this ladyafter an event that I spoke at
and she's like well, practically, how do I do that?
And of course, it's verydifficult, because often we
(06:40):
think as inspirational people,as highly extroverted people,
comfortable in front of largegroups of people, and yet you
can be an introvert and still beinspirational.
And so, you know, what I toldher on the day is what I will
share here is that it's aboutsharing your passion for
something.
This is just one element ofinspiration, is the thing that
(07:02):
you're passionate about.
Find a way to articulate it.
Find a way to share it withother people so that they can
start feeling that sense ofshared passion.
I think creativity is key forinspiration as well.
What we want is, if you're amanager, is to be curious about
what's possible, is also to maketime for different thinking,
(07:22):
different ideas.
Employees find thatinspirational, particularly when
you're pushing back against thecultural norm, and I'm not
saying that you're doing it tobe difficult or you're trying to
create your own internal cult,but what you're trying to do is
say, hey, listen, we see the waythat the organization is
working, we recognize that, butactually we're going to try some
different things in differentways here, because we believe
(07:44):
that will give us, you know,kind of more certainty around
results.
I think empatheticcommunication is key for
inspiration.
It's recognizing the individualand recognizing what they need
from you at that moment in time.
And for me, when I think aboutthe inspirational people that I
worked with and one of them wasan extreme introvert, but what
she did really really well isshe got to know me and she knew
(08:07):
exactly what I needed at thetime that I needed it, and
sometimes it was a stern word,but she stayed in control of her
emotions.
And the reason that I cited heras someone who was
inspirational is I was able toget from her what I needed at
that time to give me themotivation to do what I needed
to do.
How about you, Cath?
Cath (08:27):
Yeah, I like that.
I think it's a really goodquestion actually to put back to
the person who brought thisquestion, to sort of just stop
and think and reflect about.
When have you been inspired?
Who has inspired you and thinkabout in your personal life as
well as work life?
I often think it can be a bit ofa trap to think I've got to
(08:47):
inspire my team.
We must have an away day andset our bold, ambitious goals,
and there's nothing wrong withdoing that, but that in itself
is not really going to inspirepeople.
I think it's much more what youdo and how you show up on the
difficult days, when thingsaren't going brilliantly, when
it's tough and maybe you've gota lot on your plate to manage
(09:08):
across your life.
I think how we show up in thosetimes is often when we really
inspire people and people see usfor who we are.
I think there's something aboutunderstanding others.
So, rather than I feel in thequestion there's this inherent
sense that I, as the manager ofa team, have got to get
inspiration and know it and findit, and if I think hard enough,
(09:29):
I'll know how to inspireeveryone and, of course, the
people who have the answer andcan unlock it are your team, so
there's nothing wrong withasking them what are the things
that help you to be at your best?
Or you know to give someexamples of where you've thrived
in work outside work.
What's important, how can Isupport you and to actually let
(09:51):
others answer the question foryou, to find out what are the
things that motivate people.
So one of my favorite questionsis to say what gets you out of
bed in the morning and just tofind that out about people we
work with.
So not just what's on theLinkedIn post, but what are the
things that you look forward toin the day, what energizes you
(10:12):
in a working day?
Because if we can help others totap into those things and make
sure those things are happeningalongside some of the dull,
mundane stuff that just has toget done, if there are enough of
those other energizing momentsand people are getting out the
things that are reallyintrinsically important to them,
which are often around learning, growing, developing and
(10:32):
connecting with others, andthose two things, whenever I ask
that question, the two thatcome out most.
So I think if we can startmaking sure we're helping, you
know, bring those moments intothe workplace, then people are
on a good track, but justfinding out about others.
So having that, thoseconversations, that's just part
of this week.
It's not just getting tasksdone, it's finding out more
(10:53):
about my team, how they're doing, how you know what would help
them.
What are the things they'veenjoyed in this week?
Not making assumptions orfeeling we've got to guess that,
but actually starting to workout gradually and seeing that as
an ongoing challenge.
Colin (11:09):
Excellent.
Okay, next question and linkedto that so how to translate a
vision?
And a vision, of course, is asense of aspiration that the
organization provides.
So on the one hand, that shouldbe inspirational.
So how to translate a visionand a purpose Kat into the
culture?
Cath (11:26):
Yeah, I think this is interesting, isn't it?
Something that's part of ourwork, isn't it?
And I think it links quiteclosely to that previous
question.
And it isn't just about, again,the vision of purpose being set
on that one day we all gettogether for the strategy day.
It is about everydayconversations and making sure
that you know, when we'relooking at the work we're doing
(11:49):
today, we're looking at ourcalendar, we're looking across
how we're organizing ourselvesto make sure that the vision and
purpose are really threadedinto that.
So often I get this bizarreseparation.
We have a vision and a purpose.
It's over here, it's on a pieceof paper, and then I just turn
up and the emails pour in, andIf I'm then not spending time on
(12:10):
the things that are actuallyconnected to the vision, hey,
guess what?
We're not actually makingprogress.
We might be really busy, butunless we are spending our time
on the things that matter, whichthe vision and purpose give us
a clear sense of, then we'reactually not spending our time
wisely.
And so for me, it is askingthat question and making sure
that when I'm in a meeting, Iunderstand how it relates to the
(12:32):
bigger picture.
So I think there's lots ofconnecting, making sure we're
always asking those whyquestions?
Or that lovely strategic toolof asking five whys this meeting
?
Why is it important In order todo this?
Why does that matter?
In order to get to this?
And then we get ourselves backto the vision and purpose.
Or if there isn't a good linkback, then we probably need to
question what we're doing withour time, if we need this
(12:54):
meeting or if we need to befocusing on something else.
So I think it is really bringingit into the everyday piece and
when we're reviewing, have I hada good week Again?
I often find people areover-reliant on the
organizational tool of a to-dolist.
It's not did I do loads ofstuff?
It's actually what have I donethis week?
That it's not did I do loads ofstuff?
(13:15):
It's actually what have I donethis week that's taken us a step
closer to that vision andpurpose.
So reviewing review with thatin mind.
Not just did I reply toeveryone who called me, yeah,
the vision and purpose.
Colin (13:25):
I think I wrote last year about culture stuff and lots of
organizations have lots ofculture stuff.
They have a vision, they have apurpose, they have values, they
have behaviors.
They have all these things andthey only mean anything if you
put them into action.
So, echoing what you said, Cath, a vision is really it's about
what you want to become.
So an example of a visionstatement and it has to be
(13:46):
memorable if you're to trulyachieve the vision.
And your strategy should linkto your vision.
So everything in your strategyusually three years should link
to the vision that you have soyou might have globally
recognized technology leader,for example.
As a vision, Everything has tolink to that, Everything,
everything that you do.
So, exactly what you said, Cath, every decision, you have to
look at the decision and saywill this decision contribute to
(14:08):
us achieving the vision?
And the vision has to beachievable.
It's got to be achievable, tobe believable, Because if people
don't look at the vision and gowell, we'll never.
If they look at the vision andgo well, we'll never achieve
that, then it's not worth thewebsite that it's printed on.
So every priority has to linkto the vision.
There can't be any pet projectsoff to the side.
(14:30):
I think this is where I've seenthe mistake in the past.
I remember one finance teamwere doing a finance project and
like, how does that contributeto the vision?
Well, it doesn't.
It's just something we'vewanted to do for a while.
It all starts to raise thosequestions.
A purpose, on the other hand, isreally about what the
organization stands for, andthat can be more nuanced and
(14:52):
more difficult.
The purpose really informs thevalues, and then the values then
have to be translated intomeaningful day-to-day action so
that then we become the kind oforganization that lives its
purpose.
We've talked about this before,Cath.
This is where manager trainingis key.
It's not just about saying westand for this, it's about, well
, how do we put that intopractice day to day?
(15:12):
You know there's a greatexample.
So Chelsea Football Club have ano hate initiative, which I
love, right it's.
You know, it's about how wemake sure that everyone feels
welcomed and included.
You know what are the stepsthat we're taking to make sure
that none of the isms arepresent within the club.
And you know, within thestadium it's great.
(15:33):
And yet at the start of theseason, the club captain was
found to have made racist andhomophobic comments.
He was videoed doing it.
Of course, he apologized, butthe club, they didn't put him on
the transfer list and say,right, well, he doesn't conform
to our purpose and what we standfor.
He even kept the captaincy andthey made excuses for that, and
(15:57):
so in that moment, the club isreally not living its purpose.
I'm just using Chelsea as anexample.
There are many other examples,but I think if you're going to
actually write your purpose downand it's something that you
stand for, you have to beprepared to make the necessary
decisions, exactly as you said,to demonstrate that it truly
does mean something.
Otherwise, it's just anotherpointless thing and another bit
(16:19):
of culture stuff that you put onyour website.
Cath (16:21):
Yeah, and one of the things actually within what you
were saying there that I thinkis important to bring out and
maybe helpful to bring out.
I was talking to a MIA leaderin a large corporation recently
who was saying you know, my keyjob is to help people stop doing
stuff so they can do the thingsthat are actually going to help
us deliver what we're here todeliver.
And you know, I think, again, avision and purpose ought to be
(16:46):
a means of helping you stopdoing stuff.
So you talked about those petprojects.
I just want to really emphasizethat point because I think it's
something we're often not verygood at.
There's this sense you've gotto say yes to everything and
then we're lost.
It's actually the vision andpurpose.
Translating that is saying thesethings matter more because
they're going to help us gettowards this vision and purpose
(17:07):
and we've defined it becausethat's actually what we're able
to do, it's what we want to do,it's what we're set up to do,
and a huge amount ofinefficiency and then the sort
of sense that at the end of theyear, we've been busy, we
haven't got somewhere, isbecause we haven't said no to
things that take up a lot oftime, but we think, well,
(17:27):
someone's asked us to do it,it's on my to-do list now.
Therefore, I'm doing a goodthing if I do it.
The vision and the purposeought to give us a means of
questioning it and go well,maybe it isn't what I should be
spending time on, and I thinkthat's a real area that often
isn't done as well as it couldbe.
It needs to be a collaborativediscussion and I think it's a
(17:48):
real key miss.
It's one of the things thathigh-performing environments do
do.
They have that absolute clarityIf this, in rowing terms, if
this isn't making our boat gofaster, we're not doing it.
And that sort of clarity iswhere we want to kind of drill
down further, be able to havemore of those conversations that
(18:09):
mean we're spending time on thethings that are going to make a
difference to the vision andpurpose.
Colin (18:12):
Yeah Good, a hundred percent.
Cath (18:14):
So let's.
The next question is one thatwe've been discussing and it
comes up all the time Is there agood way to encourage people
back to the office?
Colin (18:24):
Yeah, encourage is probably the right word there.
I think, telling people to comeback to the office.
Listen, leaders are in thisquandary at the minute, kind of
post-pandemic, where everybodywas forced to work from home.
Listen, it had been possibleWe've talked about this before,
it'd been possible for years towork from home.
I was doing it for the MirrorGroup in 2001, but it was very
(18:47):
much a mindset shift.
The pandemic forced mostoffice-based staff to work
remotely.
It became a thing we gotcomfortable, and so on.
There is a push, and therecontinues to be a push, to kind
of encourage people to come backto the office.
And you know, what I would sayand all of the research backs it
up is that face-to-face isstill the best way to do some
(19:07):
things Not all things, but somethings and for me, the
organizations that are doingthis stuff really well are
really looking at how can westrip out the inefficiencies in
the way that we do things sothat when we do actually come
together, we're able to makemuch more of that time.
However, there are a couple ofthings.
It's firstly, the office hasgot to want to be a place that
(19:29):
people come back, want to comeback to.
I did some work with anorganization engineering
organization and they were inthis similar situation and the
leadership team were really good, don't get me wrong.
They wanted to do it in theright way, presumably.
That's why they asked me towork with them.
And they said you know, how dowe get people to come back here?
I was like is this where youwork?
And they were like, yeah.
(19:50):
I was like is this where peoplework?
He said, yeah.
I was like, honestly, Iwouldn't want to come back here.
And of course I was half joking, but it was gray, it was drab,
and I said I'm not asking you tospend a million pounds and
completely refit the office.
I was like but it's got to bewelcoming.
There've got to be differentspaces.
People have got used to havingquiet spaces to have phone calls
(20:10):
.
They've got used to being ableto knuckle down and just do it.
This was open plan, which weknow doesn't really benefit.
Anyway, I think the other thingis to be mindful of an uneven
employee experience.
Now, what I mean by that is is,if 20% of your workers are
office based and can work fromhome, but 80% work out in the
(20:30):
field, then you have this unevenexperience and what you need to
do is to create equity withinthe organization when it comes
to enhanced flexibility.
That was the set that you knowwith one organization that I
worked for.
We went for a more enhancedflexibility approach rather than
hybrid work, working from home.
The language is really, reallyimportant, and the final thing
(20:52):
that I would say is you can'thave one rule for senior leaders
and one rule for everybody else, and I always find this
interesting because people oftenthe leaders I speak to is like
oh, these kids want to work fromhome, and they always make it
about a generational thing.
So what the research says isthat the generation that is
looking to work from home moreright now is probably
(21:13):
millennials, because theirparents, they want that enhanced
flexibility that we never got,unfortunately, when we were
parents, and actually it's theleaders who spend more time away
from the office than employeessometimes.
So I think you can't afford tohave different rules for
different people.
You need to be crystal clearabout what the expectations are.
(21:34):
You need to be honest andupfront and actually involve
employees in that decision suchthat they feel that they've had
some agency over it.
Not everyone's going to behappy with everything, but then
not everybody else is.
So I think empathy is key.
What's your view, kat?
Cath (21:49):
Well, yeah, I just want to dig back in.
Tell me a bit more about thisshift from describing it as
hybrid working to enhancedflexibility.
What was going on there?
Colin (21:59):
Yeah.
So people don't reallyunderstand and again it's that
classic, let's call it somethingwithout really understanding
what it is.
So true hybrid working, andthere are very few organizations
in the world that do truehybrid working.
Essentially what happens is theteam comes together at the
start of the week, happenshybrid working, and there are
very few organizations in theworld that do true hybrid
working.
Essentially, what happens isthe team comes together at the
start of the week.
It happens a lot in thetechnology world and they'll say
what's the work we need to getdone this week and where is the
(22:22):
best place for us to do this?
And so, in true hybridenvironment, sometimes a team
will be in the office togetherall week and sometimes they'll
be working from home all week.
It really depends on the workNow to get it right.
I've worked with a feworganizations during the
pandemic.
That got it right is you'rekind of doing it a month in
advance.
So there's almost no surpriseas you look at what you've got
(22:43):
to work on.
Right this week we'll be in theoffice and it's done on a team
by team basis, and now we've gotto manage who's in the office
when, because we don't haveenough desks, but there's a real
structure to it.
So that's true.
Hybrid Enhanced flexibility isslightly different, and it's the
approach that I alwaysrecommend, because what you want
(23:04):
to do is give your employeesthe flexibility that they need.
As soon as you give theindividual the autonomy to
decide where they need to be,certainly they feel that, okay,
well, this is a welcomingenvironment.
This is great, but it has to bedone in the context of the team
.
Otherwise, you end up with whatI call a stagnant culture,
because everyone's just doingwhat they want to do rather than
(23:25):
what's best for the team.
Yeah, so that's the distinction.
Cath (23:28):
I think that's important because it highlights some
really different conversationsand perhaps that also gives
listeners, line managers, asense of how we frame this
discussion.
So it's about what we need,what our team needs, and then
what we're delivering for theorganization and the customers
beyond, and I think it is oftenabout developing the dialogue
(23:51):
we're often.
It is often about developingthe dialogue we're often talking
in culture, about improving thequality of conversations, the
quality of dialogue, thepartnership, the collaboration.
It is different conversationsworking this out.
And so in the question it saysis there a good way to encourage
people back?
No, there isn't one good way,so I think that's almost the
first thing to let go of that.
There's a good way to encouragepeople back?
No, there isn't one good way,so I think that's almost the
(24:12):
first thing to let go of that.
There's a right way to do thisbecause it is so context,
specific, dependent on the typeof work you do, the organisation
, the type of department you'rein, your skills.
So you know that in itself is achallenge because people just
want the answer, just tell mewhat to do to get everyone back
in.
But no, we have moved into adifferent world that really
(24:33):
ought to be a better world,where we're trying to help
people get the most out ofthemselves, and so we need to
start asking that question again, something we've already talked
about in this episode.
What do you need to do yourbest work?
Are we asking people that?
What sort of environment?
I remember this is somethingthat Luke Donald did with his
Ryder Cup team what are thethings that help you play at
(24:55):
your best?
Yeah, we're coming into a teamenvironment.
Having been individual golfersfor the rest of the year, what
in this environment, can I do tosupport you now to be part of
this team and to bring your bestinto this team, and to
acknowledge that.
So I think it's creating thespace for those conversations
and I very much like this pointyou made.
You know what would make itworthwhile, what makes it really
(25:16):
valuable.
So you will go home thinking,yeah, not, I went in and I
ticked off my two days in thisweek, but this is what I gained
from going in.
If we're not clear on that, thenwe're not actually maximizing
the performance environment.
We're not giving people theconditions to do their best work
.
Ie, we're getting in their way.
That doesn't make sense.
(25:36):
So I think, shifting thequestion what is it that we all
need to do our best work?
And starting and to develop itfrom that point is then going to
open up the opportunities, theoptions, and then we've got to
also do a little bit ofexperimenting.
I think we seem to want a fixedoption.
We've got to say it's got to bethis thing for everyone.
(25:58):
That makes no sense if we'reall doing different types of
jobs.
So just challenging this andgently creating a sense that we
do what we need to do for ourjob, it's going to help us do
our best work.
That's actually what we want toget from this, rather than a
rule for a rule's sake that wecan then uphold and enforce and
monitor and punish and all ofthat.
(26:19):
That's just not the way to goif we actually want to help
people do their best work.
Colin (26:23):
Yeah, and it comes back and we mentioned this before in
manager skills.
There was one survey that only3% of managers said they had the
skills to manage a hybridworkforce.
So it's part of that evolutionof management as well.
We've got to help people.
We talked about experimenting.
Yeah, we've got to helpmanagers to do those kinds of
things.
We've got to help them tomanage different people in
(26:43):
different environments.
And how do we ensure that wekeep the team together without
creating, you know, kind ofcreating these conditions where
we fracture the workforce?
Okay, last question to you,Cath, and also topical at the
minute, is how can we manage, orbetter manage, uncertainty?
Cath (27:01):
It's a huge one, it's quite a philosophical one
actually.
I hear so differing views and Ithink there are, from
evolutionary psychology,different views on what we need,
what level of certainty we need.
Some people say, oh, we're alldesperate for certainty and
therefore we're struggling inthese times.
But I was privileged to be atthe launch and have since read
(27:24):
Margaret Heffernan's latest book, embracing Uncertainty how
writers and artists basicallycan show us the way their whole
work is premised on startingsomething they don't know what
it's going to look like, andreally leaning into exploring
the uncertainty, using theuncertainty to explore what's
possible.
So for me there's a hugemindset piece here.
(27:46):
We actually get very dependent.
Unfortunately, our educationsystem will often lead us to
feel their certainty.
In our subjects, in our exams,there are right answers and
we're right or wrong, and thatis really leading us up the
wrong path for what we need.
We need to help ourselvesactually explore different
options, be able to think aboutpossibilities.
(28:07):
Most of the challenges we facein the workplace now are ones
that don't have a right answer.
We have to continually developbetter answers, and so for me it
is giving space to this, makingsure that in our development,
in our leadership development inour team development in our
conversations as teams.
We're thinking about actuallyhow are we developing, what are
(28:29):
we exploring, what's possible?
We're opening up into thisspace rather than trying to
monitor, measure all thesesimple things that give us
actually a false sense ofcertainty.
So read Margaret Hefner's book.
It's my top tip.
Colin (28:46):
And I think it's true what you say.
I think we have to recognizethat uncertainty exists.
I've seen so many things failbecause we try and get every
single detail right.
What was it Mike Tyson saidEveryone has a plan until they
get punched in the face.
But it's true.
Cath (29:01):
Every battle, I mean the military say, don't they?
Every battle plan doesn'tsurvive first contact with the
enemy or something.
Colin (29:08):
Yeah, that's right, and so I think reframing it is
really key.
You know, I like scenarioplanning, pre-mortems.
I love this, I love runningpre-mortems.
You know what could kill thisor what could improve this, and
so I think that sense ofcuriosity is actually to create
that time for people to becurious, find out new stuff
(29:30):
Don't bog them down withpointless meetings, poor
communication and trying to getabsolute certainty about
everything is making sure thatthey've got the time that, when
things don't go as planned, theycan actually look into what can
we do differently.
You know what?
What if this thing that we'replanning isn't true?
You know what?
What will that lead to?
And I think that uncertaintycan lead to greater creativity
(29:55):
and really prevent that kind ofidea blindness that we get
because we've tried to, you know, put everything on its line and
define it to a degree wherepeople just don't have the
capacity for new ideas, newconcepts and new ways of
thinking.
Yeah, so I can't wait to readMargaret's book myself.
Cath (30:15):
Yeah, I really recommend it.
It's a good one and it is forme.
I find a lot of the work I'mdoing I'm trying to help people
open up thinking patterns thatare closing down because we're
chasing targets, we're chasingshort-term metrics and we're not
really thinking about what'spossible.
That could get us into trouble.
Because actually, if the world,the environment we're in, is
shifting, if there are differentopportunities coming, we're
(30:36):
just not really noticing those.
And even for ourselves, again,we've just got the sense of I'm
doing stuff, I'm active, I'mbusy, but actually am I doing
something meaningful?
Could I actually be doingsomething slightly different
that would have much greatervalue for the longer term or be
much more meaningful to thepeople that we serve in the
organization, outside theorganization?
So asking some differentquestions on certainty can
(30:57):
really help us to thinkdifferently and that's where we
could lean into it and actuallywelcome it a bit more.
Colin (31:05):
Fantastic.
Just a reminder to everybodyout there if you've got a
question that you'd like Cathand I to cover, please do drop
us a line insideoutculture atgmailcom, or come and see us
when we speak or a workshop, askus a question.
We may project it back onto thepodcast.
But that was.
I really love that question andanswer episode, Cath.
Thank you so much yeah great.
Cath (31:26):
See you soon.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out.
Colin (31:31):
Culture Podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested.
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis and I'm Cath.
Cath (00:13):
Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Cath (00:33):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast, and todayis our first questions episode
for 2025.
And we've been gatheringquestions.
We've got quite a few thatwe've had come in, ones that
we've heard.
And we've been gatheringquestions, we've got quite a few
that we've had come in, onesthat we've heard, and, yeah,
we've got some very topical ones, I think, to discuss today,
colin, haven't we?
Colin (00:52):
Yeah, very topical.
The first question is supertopical and we're not going to
mention any names, but I thinkpeople will recognize where
we're going with this one.
So the first question, Cath,over to you is do we need to go
back to recognizing strongleaders more in our organization
, given the current trendsglobally?
Cath (01:11):
Yes, and I've heard this a few times, I've heard it
whispered and I've heard itasked loudly and one wonders if
we ever really went away from it.
But I think it raises the needto actually think about defining
the leadership we want in ourorganizations, defining the
leadership we need in order tobe successful for us.
(01:33):
So, rather than just lookingand going oh look, there's a
very loud, strong man leaderover there.
That must be what we need.
I think it's really importantto actually look at how our
organizations run and actually,with the you know, increase in
challenges, the sort of increasein unpredictability, the need
(01:53):
to support people, to work inperhaps more, you know,
challenging personal contexts,hybrid working making lives a
little more complicated, whichis something we'll come back to
in a bit what sort of leadersrequired for quite a complex
environment?
I don't think it is this sort ofheroic strength leading from
the front, because I think weneed much more of a nuanced
(02:13):
approach.
We need to be thinking aboutwhat does that organization need
, not?
What am I here to do to save itto?
What are my ideas so that it'sall about me at the top?
I think we've come to often seeheroic leadership as something
that is outdated, that is alsoonly short-term impactful, if
(02:37):
it's impactful at all, and Ithink most organizations would
do well to be thinking aboutactually what's going to help us
sustain over 10 years, 20 years, 50 years actually what's going
to help us sustain over 10years, 20 years, 50 years?
And they'll probably find thatthey need some different
elements of the leadership thanpure raw strength.
What do you think?
Colin (02:52):
Yeah, I agree, I yeah, kind of strong means different
things in different contexts.
I come back to the research,and what the research says is
that what most employers arelooking for in their leaders is
emotional intelligence, andoften the view or the view in
the past, Cath, is this is kindof the soft stuff that you know,
(03:13):
the soft skills that everybodytalks about.
But emotionally intelligentleaders find ways to communicate
with all people in all mannerof ways.
They put themselves intoservice to others.
They are vulnerable when theybelieve it will help other
people.
They find ways to connect andbuild relationships.
They put themselves on thefront line so they're not afraid
(03:35):
to roll up their sleeves whenthings aren't going as well.
They listen empathetically.
All of these things are reallyreally difficult to do and for
me, the definition of strengthis recognizing when you need to
step in and be someone who maybeyou aren't more naturally, and
there's a lot that we can learnfrom ourselves.
I used to joke all the time whenI first started speaking about
(03:57):
I don't know, eight or nineyears ago.
I used to joke all the timeabout how do you know when a
project's failing, they bring ina middle-aged man to fix it,
because that was the view thereis.
Only a man can drag us out ofthis and fix it, when actually
the opposite was required, andit's not gender-based.
What we needed was someone whohad compassion, who could build
a relationship, who could takethe time to understand, who
(04:19):
didn't press the panic button.
But I think you're right.
I think that definition ofleadership in different contexts
is really important.
I like the Ernest Hemingwayquote.
He said that the world and itseems irrelevant for right now
the world breaks everyone andafterward some are strong at the
broken places, and I thinkthat's where we are within our
(04:40):
ever-evolving world right now iswhat can we learn about
ourselves, given the contextthat we're in right now, such
that it helps us to be better inthe future?
Cath (04:48):
Yeah, so we're actually thinking.
Strong at what?
Strong in giving clarity, yeah.
Strong in defining a clearpurpose, strong in listening
those sorts of strengths wouldbe good.
But just as the concept and thedefinition of resilience has
changed from one of physicalstrength to being one that's
much more around adaptability,flexibility, understanding and
(05:13):
being able to sort of developourselves in adversity, I think
that's we need to redefine whatstrong leaders look like, don't
we?
But I find that adjective isprobably not helpful because we
still leap to that kind ofphysical, heroic definition.
Colin (05:28):
So, yeah, that's a great distinction.
It's one of emotional strengthrather than physical strength.
Yeah, I agree with that.
Cath (05:38):
And maybe that would be quite useful.
You know, sometimes I try anduse strong language to think
about well, actually, in orderto get high performance, we need
compassion and emotionalintelligence in order to sort of
bring people along.
But change definitions as we goand just challenge that.
What do we mean by strongleadership and what might
(05:58):
actually be the qualities weneed more of Good?
So we're going to build a bitmore on that with this next
question that came to you, whichwas to say, as a leader saying,
or perhaps a line manager aswell, saying, I constantly am
told that I need to inspire myteam, what does this look like?
That's a bit of a help question.
Colin (06:17):
Yeah, it was, and I think many managers find themselves
in that position Is they'reoften told your job is to
inspire and motivate a team.
You've got to do all this otherstuff over to the side, but
when you're a people manager,you have to inspire and motivate
your team.
And yes, I spoke to this ladyafter an event that I spoke at
and she's like well, practically, how do I do that?
And of course, it's verydifficult, because often we
(06:40):
think as inspirational people,as highly extroverted people,
comfortable in front of largegroups of people, and yet you
can be an introvert and still beinspirational.
And so, you know, what I toldher on the day is what I will
share here is that it's aboutsharing your passion for
something.
This is just one element ofinspiration, is the thing that
(07:02):
you're passionate about.
Find a way to articulate it.
Find a way to share it withother people so that they can
start feeling that sense ofshared passion.
I think creativity is key forinspiration as well.
What we want is, if you're amanager, is to be curious about
what's possible, is also to maketime for different thinking,
(07:22):
different ideas.
Employees find thatinspirational, particularly when
you're pushing back against thecultural norm, and I'm not
saying that you're doing it tobe difficult or you're trying to
create your own internal cult,but what you're trying to do is
say, hey, listen, we see the waythat the organization is
working, we recognize that, butactually we're going to try some
different things in differentways here, because we believe
(07:44):
that will give us, you know,kind of more certainty around
results.
I think empatheticcommunication is key for
inspiration.
It's recognizing the individualand recognizing what they need
from you at that moment in time.
And for me, when I think aboutthe inspirational people that I
worked with and one of them wasan extreme introvert, but what
she did really really well isshe got to know me and she knew
(08:07):
exactly what I needed at thetime that I needed it, and
sometimes it was a stern word,but she stayed in control of her
emotions.
And the reason that I cited heras someone who was
inspirational is I was able toget from her what I needed at
that time to give me themotivation to do what I needed
to do.
How about you, Cath?
Cath (08:27):
Yeah, I like that.
I think it's a really goodquestion actually to put back to
the person who brought thisquestion, to sort of just stop
and think and reflect about.
When have you been inspired?
Who has inspired you and thinkabout in your personal life as
well as work life?
I often think it can be a bit ofa trap to think I've got to
(08:47):
inspire my team.
We must have an away day andset our bold, ambitious goals,
and there's nothing wrong withdoing that, but that in itself
is not really going to inspirepeople.
I think it's much more what youdo and how you show up on the
difficult days, when thingsaren't going brilliantly, when
it's tough and maybe you've gota lot on your plate to manage
(09:08):
across your life.
I think how we show up in thosetimes is often when we really
inspire people and people see usfor who we are.
I think there's something aboutunderstanding others.
So, rather than I feel in thequestion there's this inherent
sense that I, as the manager ofa team, have got to get
inspiration and know it and findit, and if I think hard enough,
(09:29):
I'll know how to inspireeveryone and, of course, the
people who have the answer andcan unlock it are your team, so
there's nothing wrong withasking them what are the things
that help you to be at your best?
Or you know to give someexamples of where you've thrived
in work outside work.
What's important, how can Isupport you and to actually let
(09:51):
others answer the question foryou, to find out what are the
things that motivate people.
So one of my favorite questionsis to say what gets you out of
bed in the morning and just tofind that out about people we
work with.
So not just what's on theLinkedIn post, but what are the
things that you look forward toin the day, what energizes you
(10:12):
in a working day?
Because if we can help others totap into those things and make
sure those things are happeningalongside some of the dull,
mundane stuff that just has toget done, if there are enough of
those other energizing momentsand people are getting out the
things that are reallyintrinsically important to them,
which are often around learning, growing, developing and
(10:32):
connecting with others, andthose two things, whenever I ask
that question, the two thatcome out most.
So I think if we can startmaking sure we're helping, you
know, bring those moments intothe workplace, then people are
on a good track, but justfinding out about others.
So having that, thoseconversations, that's just part
of this week.
It's not just getting tasksdone, it's finding out more
(10:53):
about my team, how they're doing, how you know what would help
them.
What are the things they'veenjoyed in this week?
Not making assumptions orfeeling we've got to guess that,
but actually starting to workout gradually and seeing that as
an ongoing challenge.
Colin (11:09):
Excellent.
Okay, next question and linkedto that so how to translate a
vision?
And a vision, of course, is asense of aspiration that the
organization provides.
So on the one hand, that shouldbe inspirational.
So how to translate a visionand a purpose Kat into the
culture?
Cath (11:26):
Yeah, I think this is interesting, isn't it?
Something that's part of ourwork, isn't it?
And I think it links quiteclosely to that previous
question.
And it isn't just about, again,the vision of purpose being set
on that one day we all gettogether for the strategy day.
It is about everydayconversations and making sure
that you know, when we'relooking at the work we're doing
(11:49):
today, we're looking at ourcalendar, we're looking across
how we're organizing ourselvesto make sure that the vision and
purpose are really threadedinto that.
So often I get this bizarreseparation.
We have a vision and a purpose.
It's over here, it's on a pieceof paper, and then I just turn
up and the emails pour in, andIf I'm then not spending time on
(12:10):
the things that are actuallyconnected to the vision, hey,
guess what?
We're not actually makingprogress.
We might be really busy, butunless we are spending our time
on the things that matter, whichthe vision and purpose give us
a clear sense of, then we'reactually not spending our time
wisely.
And so for me, it is askingthat question and making sure
that when I'm in a meeting, Iunderstand how it relates to the
(12:32):
bigger picture.
So I think there's lots ofconnecting, making sure we're
always asking those whyquestions?
Or that lovely strategic toolof asking five whys this meeting
?
Why is it important In order todo this?
Why does that matter?
In order to get to this?
And then we get ourselves backto the vision and purpose.
Or if there isn't a good linkback, then we probably need to
question what we're doing withour time, if we need this
(12:54):
meeting or if we need to befocusing on something else.
So I think it is really bringingit into the everyday piece and
when we're reviewing, have I hada good week Again?
I often find people areover-reliant on the
organizational tool of a to-dolist.
It's not did I do loads ofstuff?
It's actually what have I donethis week?
That it's not did I do loads ofstuff?
(13:15):
It's actually what have I donethis week that's taken us a step
closer to that vision andpurpose.
So reviewing review with thatin mind.
Not just did I reply toeveryone who called me, yeah,
the vision and purpose.
Colin (13:25):
I think I wrote last year about culture stuff and lots of
organizations have lots ofculture stuff.
They have a vision, they have apurpose, they have values, they
have behaviors.
They have all these things andthey only mean anything if you
put them into action.
So, echoing what you said, Cath, a vision is really it's about
what you want to become.
So an example of a visionstatement and it has to be
(13:46):
memorable if you're to trulyachieve the vision.
And your strategy should linkto your vision.
So everything in your strategyusually three years should link
to the vision that you have soyou might have globally
recognized technology leader,for example.
As a vision, Everything has tolink to that, Everything,
everything that you do.
So, exactly what you said, Cath, every decision, you have to
look at the decision and saywill this decision contribute to
(14:08):
us achieving the vision?
And the vision has to beachievable.
It's got to be achievable, tobe believable, Because if people
don't look at the vision and gowell, we'll never.
If they look at the vision andgo well, we'll never achieve
that, then it's not worth thewebsite that it's printed on.
So every priority has to linkto the vision.
There can't be any pet projectsoff to the side.
(14:30):
I think this is where I've seenthe mistake in the past.
I remember one finance teamwere doing a finance project and
like, how does that contributeto the vision?
Well, it doesn't.
It's just something we'vewanted to do for a while.
It all starts to raise thosequestions.
A purpose, on the other hand, isreally about what the
organization stands for, andthat can be more nuanced and
(14:52):
more difficult.
The purpose really informs thevalues, and then the values then
have to be translated intomeaningful day-to-day action so
that then we become the kind oforganization that lives its
purpose.
We've talked about this before,Cath.
This is where manager trainingis key.
It's not just about saying westand for this, it's about, well
, how do we put that intopractice day to day?
(15:12):
You know there's a greatexample.
So Chelsea Football Club have ano hate initiative, which I
love, right it's.
You know, it's about how wemake sure that everyone feels
welcomed and included.
You know what are the stepsthat we're taking to make sure
that none of the isms arepresent within the club.
And you know, within thestadium it's great.
(15:33):
And yet at the start of theseason, the club captain was
found to have made racist andhomophobic comments.
He was videoed doing it.
Of course, he apologized, butthe club, they didn't put him on
the transfer list and say,right, well, he doesn't conform
to our purpose and what we standfor.
He even kept the captaincy andthey made excuses for that, and
(15:57):
so in that moment, the club isreally not living its purpose.
I'm just using Chelsea as anexample.
There are many other examples,but I think if you're going to
actually write your purpose downand it's something that you
stand for, you have to beprepared to make the necessary
decisions, exactly as you said,to demonstrate that it truly
does mean something.
Otherwise, it's just anotherpointless thing and another bit
(16:19):
of culture stuff that you put onyour website.
Cath (16:21):
Yeah, and one of the things actually within what you
were saying there that I thinkis important to bring out and
maybe helpful to bring out.
I was talking to a MIA leaderin a large corporation recently
who was saying you know, my keyjob is to help people stop doing
stuff so they can do the thingsthat are actually going to help
us deliver what we're here todeliver.
And you know, I think, again, avision and purpose ought to be
(16:46):
a means of helping you stopdoing stuff.
So you talked about those petprojects.
I just want to really emphasizethat point because I think it's
something we're often not verygood at.
There's this sense you've gotto say yes to everything and
then we're lost.
It's actually the vision andpurpose.
Translating that is saying thesethings matter more because
they're going to help us gettowards this vision and purpose
(17:07):
and we've defined it becausethat's actually what we're able
to do, it's what we want to do,it's what we're set up to do,
and a huge amount ofinefficiency and then the sort
of sense that at the end of theyear, we've been busy, we
haven't got somewhere, isbecause we haven't said no to
things that take up a lot oftime, but we think, well,
(17:27):
someone's asked us to do it,it's on my to-do list now.
Therefore, I'm doing a goodthing if I do it.
The vision and the purposeought to give us a means of
questioning it and go well,maybe it isn't what I should be
spending time on, and I thinkthat's a real area that often
isn't done as well as it couldbe.
It needs to be a collaborativediscussion and I think it's a
(17:48):
real key miss.
It's one of the things thathigh-performing environments do
do.
They have that absolute clarityIf this, in rowing terms, if
this isn't making our boat gofaster, we're not doing it.
And that sort of clarity iswhere we want to kind of drill
down further, be able to havemore of those conversations that
(18:09):
mean we're spending time on thethings that are going to make a
difference to the vision andpurpose.
Colin (18:12):
Yeah Good, a hundred percent.
Cath (18:14):
So let's.
The next question is one thatwe've been discussing and it
comes up all the time Is there agood way to encourage people
back to the office?
Colin (18:24):
Yeah, encourage is probably the right word there.
I think, telling people to comeback to the office.
Listen, leaders are in thisquandary at the minute, kind of
post-pandemic, where everybodywas forced to work from home.
Listen, it had been possibleWe've talked about this before,
it'd been possible for years towork from home.
I was doing it for the MirrorGroup in 2001, but it was very
(18:47):
much a mindset shift.
The pandemic forced mostoffice-based staff to work
remotely.
It became a thing we gotcomfortable, and so on.
There is a push, and therecontinues to be a push, to kind
of encourage people to come backto the office.
And you know, what I would sayand all of the research backs it
up is that face-to-face isstill the best way to do some
(19:07):
things Not all things, but somethings and for me, the
organizations that are doingthis stuff really well are
really looking at how can westrip out the inefficiencies in
the way that we do things sothat when we do actually come
together, we're able to makemuch more of that time.
However, there are a couple ofthings.
It's firstly, the office hasgot to want to be a place that
(19:29):
people come back, want to comeback to.
I did some work with anorganization engineering
organization and they were inthis similar situation and the
leadership team were really good, don't get me wrong.
They wanted to do it in theright way, presumably.
That's why they asked me towork with them.
And they said you know, how dowe get people to come back here?
I was like is this where youwork?
And they were like, yeah.
(19:50):
I was like is this where peoplework?
He said, yeah.
I was like, honestly, Iwouldn't want to come back here.
And of course I was half joking, but it was gray, it was drab,
and I said I'm not asking you tospend a million pounds and
completely refit the office.
I was like but it's got to bewelcoming.
There've got to be differentspaces.
People have got used to havingquiet spaces to have phone calls
(20:10):
.
They've got used to being ableto knuckle down and just do it.
This was open plan, which weknow doesn't really benefit.
Anyway, I think the other thingis to be mindful of an uneven
employee experience.
Now, what I mean by that is is,if 20% of your workers are
office based and can work fromhome, but 80% work out in the
(20:30):
field, then you have this unevenexperience and what you need to
do is to create equity withinthe organization when it comes
to enhanced flexibility.
That was the set that you knowwith one organization that I
worked for.
We went for a more enhancedflexibility approach rather than
hybrid work, working from home.
The language is really, reallyimportant, and the final thing
(20:52):
that I would say is you can'thave one rule for senior leaders
and one rule for everybody else, and I always find this
interesting because people oftenthe leaders I speak to is like
oh, these kids want to work fromhome, and they always make it
about a generational thing.
So what the research says isthat the generation that is
looking to work from home moreright now is probably
(21:13):
millennials, because theirparents, they want that enhanced
flexibility that we never got,unfortunately, when we were
parents, and actually it's theleaders who spend more time away
from the office than employeessometimes.
So I think you can't afford tohave different rules for
different people.
You need to be crystal clearabout what the expectations are.
(21:34):
You need to be honest andupfront and actually involve
employees in that decision suchthat they feel that they've had
some agency over it.
Not everyone's going to behappy with everything, but then
not everybody else is.
So I think empathy is key.
What's your view, kat?
Cath (21:49):
Well, yeah, I just want to dig back in.
Tell me a bit more about thisshift from describing it as
hybrid working to enhancedflexibility.
What was going on there?
Colin (21:59):
Yeah.
So people don't reallyunderstand and again it's that
classic, let's call it somethingwithout really understanding
what it is.
So true hybrid working, andthere are very few organizations
in the world that do truehybrid working.
Essentially what happens is theteam comes together at the
start of the week, happenshybrid working, and there are
very few organizations in theworld that do true hybrid
working.
Essentially, what happens isthe team comes together at the
start of the week.
It happens a lot in thetechnology world and they'll say
what's the work we need to getdone this week and where is the
(22:22):
best place for us to do this?
And so, in true hybridenvironment, sometimes a team
will be in the office togetherall week and sometimes they'll
be working from home all week.
It really depends on the workNow to get it right.
I've worked with a feworganizations during the
pandemic.
That got it right is you'rekind of doing it a month in
advance.
So there's almost no surpriseas you look at what you've got
(22:43):
to work on.
Right this week we'll be in theoffice and it's done on a team
by team basis, and now we've gotto manage who's in the office
when, because we don't haveenough desks, but there's a real
structure to it.
So that's true.
Hybrid Enhanced flexibility isslightly different, and it's the
approach that I alwaysrecommend, because what you want
(23:04):
to do is give your employeesthe flexibility that they need.
As soon as you give theindividual the autonomy to
decide where they need to be,certainly they feel that, okay,
well, this is a welcomingenvironment.
This is great, but it has to bedone in the context of the team
.
Otherwise, you end up with whatI call a stagnant culture,
because everyone's just doingwhat they want to do rather than
(23:25):
what's best for the team.
Yeah, so that's the distinction.
Cath (23:28):
I think that's important because it highlights some
really different conversationsand perhaps that also gives
listeners, line managers, asense of how we frame this
discussion.
So it's about what we need,what our team needs, and then
what we're delivering for theorganization and the customers
beyond, and I think it is oftenabout developing the dialogue
(23:51):
we're often.
It is often about developingthe dialogue we're often talking
in culture, about improving thequality of conversations, the
quality of dialogue, thepartnership, the collaboration.
It is different conversationsworking this out.
And so in the question it saysis there a good way to encourage
people back?
No, there isn't one good way,so I think that's almost the
first thing to let go of that.
There's a good way to encouragepeople back?
No, there isn't one good way,so I think that's almost the
(24:12):
first thing to let go of that.
There's a right way to do thisbecause it is so context,
specific, dependent on the typeof work you do, the organisation
, the type of department you'rein, your skills.
So you know that in itself is achallenge because people just
want the answer, just tell mewhat to do to get everyone back
in.
But no, we have moved into adifferent world that really
(24:33):
ought to be a better world,where we're trying to help
people get the most out ofthemselves, and so we need to
start asking that question again, something we've already talked
about in this episode.
What do you need to do yourbest work?
Are we asking people that?
What sort of environment?
I remember this is somethingthat Luke Donald did with his
Ryder Cup team what are thethings that help you play at
(24:55):
your best?
Yeah, we're coming into a teamenvironment.
Having been individual golfersfor the rest of the year, what
in this environment, can I do tosupport you now to be part of
this team and to bring your bestinto this team, and to
acknowledge that.
So I think it's creating thespace for those conversations
and I very much like this pointyou made.
You know what would make itworthwhile, what makes it really
(25:16):
valuable.
So you will go home thinking,yeah, not, I went in and I
ticked off my two days in thisweek, but this is what I gained
from going in.
If we're not clear on that, thenwe're not actually maximizing
the performance environment.
We're not giving people theconditions to do their best work
.
Ie, we're getting in their way.
That doesn't make sense.
(25:36):
So I think, shifting thequestion what is it that we all
need to do our best work?
And starting and to develop itfrom that point is then going to
open up the opportunities, theoptions, and then we've got to
also do a little bit ofexperimenting.
I think we seem to want a fixedoption.
We've got to say it's got to bethis thing for everyone.
(25:58):
That makes no sense if we'reall doing different types of
jobs.
So just challenging this andgently creating a sense that we
do what we need to do for ourjob, it's going to help us do
our best work.
That's actually what we want toget from this, rather than a
rule for a rule's sake that wecan then uphold and enforce and
monitor and punish and all ofthat.
(26:19):
That's just not the way to goif we actually want to help
people do their best work.
Colin (26:23):
Yeah, and it comes back and we mentioned this before in
manager skills.
There was one survey that only3% of managers said they had the
skills to manage a hybridworkforce.
So it's part of that evolutionof management as well.
We've got to help people.
We talked about experimenting.
Yeah, we've got to helpmanagers to do those kinds of
things.
We've got to help them tomanage different people in
(26:43):
different environments.
And how do we ensure that wekeep the team together without
creating, you know, kind ofcreating these conditions where
we fracture the workforce?
Okay, last question to you,Cath, and also topical at the
minute, is how can we manage, orbetter manage, uncertainty?
Cath (27:01):
It's a huge one, it's quite a philosophical one
actually.
I hear so differing views and Ithink there are, from
evolutionary psychology,different views on what we need,
what level of certainty we need.
Some people say, oh, we're alldesperate for certainty and
therefore we're struggling inthese times.
But I was privileged to be atthe launch and have since read
(27:24):
Margaret Heffernan's latest book, embracing Uncertainty how
writers and artists basicallycan show us the way their whole
work is premised on startingsomething they don't know what
it's going to look like, andreally leaning into exploring
the uncertainty, using theuncertainty to explore what's
possible.
So for me there's a hugemindset piece here.
(27:46):
We actually get very dependent.
Unfortunately, our educationsystem will often lead us to
feel their certainty.
In our subjects, in our exams,there are right answers and
we're right or wrong, and thatis really leading us up the
wrong path for what we need.
We need to help ourselvesactually explore different
options, be able to think aboutpossibilities.
(28:07):
Most of the challenges we facein the workplace now are ones
that don't have a right answer.
We have to continually developbetter answers, and so for me it
is giving space to this, makingsure that in our development,
in our leadership development inour team development in our
conversations as teams.
We're thinking about actuallyhow are we developing, what are
(28:29):
we exploring, what's possible?
We're opening up into thisspace rather than trying to
monitor, measure all thesesimple things that give us
actually a false sense ofcertainty.
So read Margaret Hefner's book.
It's my top tip.
Colin (28:46):
And I think it's true what you say.
I think we have to recognizethat uncertainty exists.
I've seen so many things failbecause we try and get every
single detail right.
What was it Mike Tyson saidEveryone has a plan until they
get punched in the face.
But it's true.
Cath (29:01):
Every battle, I mean the military say, don't they?
Every battle plan doesn'tsurvive first contact with the
enemy or something.
Colin (29:08):
Yeah, that's right, and so I think reframing it is
really key.
You know, I like scenarioplanning, pre-mortems.
I love this, I love runningpre-mortems.
You know what could kill thisor what could improve this, and
so I think that sense ofcuriosity is actually to create
that time for people to becurious, find out new stuff
(29:30):
Don't bog them down withpointless meetings, poor
communication and trying to getabsolute certainty about
everything is making sure thatthey've got the time that, when
things don't go as planned, theycan actually look into what can
we do differently.
You know what?
What if this thing that we'replanning isn't true?
You know what?
What will that lead to?
And I think that uncertaintycan lead to greater creativity
(29:55):
and really prevent that kind ofidea blindness that we get
because we've tried to, you know, put everything on its line and
define it to a degree wherepeople just don't have the
capacity for new ideas, newconcepts and new ways of
thinking.
Yeah, so I can't wait to readMargaret's book myself.
Cath (30:15):
Yeah, I really recommend it.
It's a good one and it is forme.
I find a lot of the work I'mdoing I'm trying to help people
open up thinking patterns thatare closing down because we're
chasing targets, we're chasingshort-term metrics and we're not
really thinking about what'spossible.
That could get us into trouble.
Because actually, if the world,the environment we're in, is
shifting, if there are differentopportunities coming, we're
(30:36):
just not really noticing those.
And even for ourselves, again,we've just got the sense of I'm
doing stuff, I'm active, I'mbusy, but actually am I doing
something meaningful?
Could I actually be doingsomething slightly different
that would have much greatervalue for the longer term or be
much more meaningful to thepeople that we serve in the
organization, outside theorganization?
So asking some differentquestions on certainty can
(30:57):
really help us to thinkdifferently and that's where we
could lean into it and actuallywelcome it a bit more.
Colin (31:05):
Fantastic.
Just a reminder to everybodyout there if you've got a
question that you'd like Cathand I to cover, please do drop
us a line insideoutculture atgmailcom, or come and see us
when we speak or a workshop, askus a question.
We may project it back onto thepodcast.
But that was.
I really love that question andanswer episode, Cath.
Thank you so much yeah great.
Cath (31:26):
See you soon.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out.
Colin (31:31):
Culture Podcast.
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