September 5, 2024 • 28 mins
On this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast we are answering your questions. The issues that people face differ from industry to industry and business to business, so we look at the most pressing issues and provide insights into the things that you can do.
Specifically we look at:
How do I avoid my culture becoming ‘fluffy’?!
What does it mean to create a ‘coaching culture’ in our organisation (and is it the right thing to do)?
How much conflict should be expected in a vibrant culture?
Is it possible to have a genuine values-based culture in the corporate world?
Do HR need to up their culture game?
Why is accountability so difficult to set up in work cultures?
Don't forget that you can submit your questions for our next questions episode by using the email address below.
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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.
Instagram: @insideoutculture
Email your questions to: insideoutculture@gmail.com
Receive the Culture Leaders Action Sheet: bit.ly/iocpmail
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colin (00:02):
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Cath (00:33):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Inside Out
Culture Podcast, and today weare looking again at the culture
questions that we've receivedthrough the course of our work
or that you've sent in, andwe've got a huge range again and
these questions really enableus to dig a little deeper and
think about all of those.
But what about this type ofquestion?
(00:55):
So we're looking forward to theconversation today, colin.
Colin (00:57):
We're really looking forward to that.
We're in person, Cath, we'remaking a habit of this, and what
I love about being in personand answering these questions is
that we'll record this and thenwe'll start a conversation
about it in the middle of theother show recordings and then
we're like, oh, we should havesaid this.
Why didn't we say that?
Cath (01:16):
Yeah, we get to kind of really continue the discussions.
I always find that when I'mrecording, sort of three hours
later or in the middle of thenight, I go, oh why didn't I
mention this?
That's really important.
But actually, yeah, we're alllearning, we're all learning.
So let's kick off.
First question and this is oneI'm glad you're going to go
first on this, because the wordin this question slightly
(01:37):
triggers me how do I avoid myculture becoming fluffy?
Colin (01:42):
Oh, gosh, the fluffy word , yeah, and I can understand the
trigger, and it's one of thosethings that, I must admit, it
used to really wind me up when Iused to hear it not so much
these days, which I'll explainin a second, but it did it was
just like oh gosh, because theinference is all of this people,
stuff is worthless, it's awaste of time, and, of course,
(02:03):
that's not true.
However and this is the pointthat I want to make is often a
lot of the initiatives that weinvest in don't actually improve
performance, and I think that'sa really big issue, and so I
think the question is valid, andwhat you want and I've talked
about this or I've written aboutthis in the past is actually
(02:24):
vibrant culture sits at theintersection between high
emotional intelligence, which isoften the stuff we think of as
the fluffy stuff, and highengagement, and high engagement
really is about intrinsicmotivation.
Do we have a vision that actsas an aspiration?
How invested are we in our owndevelopment?
How invested are we incontributing to the team?
How invested are we in actuallyacting on the feedback?
(02:48):
And the feedback often is theemotional intelligence piece.
So there is a real intersection, and I think the reason that
often people think it's fluffyis they'll do away days where
they talk about stuff.
Maybe they would bring out theLego in the corporate world.
Cath (03:05):
The towel with the spaghetti.
Colin (03:06):
Oh gosh, the spaghetti and the blue tack.
I used to die inside.
Every time I saw spaghetti Iexpected when people broke it
and I'm not even Italian, orthings like personality profiles
.
I always think that's 50%.
You know, I ran a culturalworkshop in Cambridge last week
and 50% of it is on theemotional intelligence piece.
So this is this relationshipbuilding, helping people to
(03:27):
understand oneself all the time.
But 50% is well.
What do we want to dodifferently?
What's the stuff that'sfundamentally broken and holding
back performance?
How are we going to achieve ourtargets together?
What's the dumb stuff we wantto let go of?
Or what's the good stuff?
What do you see, kat?
Cath (03:43):
Yeah.
So language is important, andwhen people bring out that
fluffy word, it really irritatesme because it's just part of a
macho narrative that should beso outdated and not listened to
anymore.
That is what does it represent?
A culture of inhibition, ofdehumanizing people.
It's brittle, it'suncollaborative, it's a place
(04:04):
where people don't thrive.
That's actually what Fluffybelongs to, a way of thinking
that creates cultures like that.
And so I think all of thislanguage, that soft skills again
, that's a phrase that somehowdevalues the importance of
culture.
But this is how stuff gets done.
I mean, it doesn't get moreconcrete than that.
(04:26):
So I think it's important toreframe and to explain.
Psychological safety is notsomething soft.
It's actually about radicalcandor, a space where we can
really hold each otheraccountable to do things to a
high standard.
That is not fluffy.
And so I think you know, if youcome back to thinking about what
culture is about it's about thehabits, the beliefs, the ways
(04:50):
we do things that determine howwe get stuff done then start
asking those questions about howcan we do things better.
If you're interested inperformance, then you're
interested in culture.
So for me, there's a reframingbit here.
There's a challenging some ofthese outdated narratives, but I
do agree.
Yeah, don't just sort of think,oh well, if we all go off
bowling, then everything will befine.
No, because this is serious.
(05:11):
This is about creating a way ofdoing things together with
complex people, complexcomplementary skills.
It's not easy, and that's whywe need to invest in this and
ensure it's driving highperformance or sustainable
performance.
And ensure it's driving highperformance or sustainable
performance.
So challenge the language andthink about why culture matters.
Colin (05:30):
Yeah, and just to build on that very briefly, language
is important, so you use thingslike radical candor, and I think
there are some leaders who havean aversion to these kinds of
things.
Same with psychological safetyor the Touching American concept
.
At the end of the day, you usethe language that suits the
organization that you work in,but these things are still
really important.
Psychological safety is aboutmaking sure that people feel
(05:54):
safe to speak up at any time andthey can do their job without
fear, harassment, bullying, anyof these kinds of things.
So, absolutely right, calf'slanguage is important.
Cath (05:58):
It's about how we work.
It's about the fact we'rehumans.
If we want to get the best outof people, then let's get
investing in our cultures.
Colin (06:03):
Absolutely All right.
Next question oh, this is agood one.
What does it mean to create acoaching culture in our
organization and, crucially, isit the right thing to do?
Cath (06:14):
Yeah, really interesting question, and I hear lots of
organizations often exploringthis, wanting to do it, even
claiming they are a coachingorganization, because everyone's
had a bit of training, or a fewpeople have, and I think it's a
really helpful tool to creatinga culture where people can
thrive, where we start to reallyunlock people's potential,
where they're developed throughtheir roles.
(06:35):
They're not just machineschurning out stuff.
So I think it actually is ahuge commitment.
It's not something we just dofor a quarter and then we're
done.
We've got the coaching culture.
It's a commitment, though, to away of working that really
helps unlock potential.
It moves us away from adirective space.
So a coaching culture is one inwhich leaders see their prime
(06:58):
objective as drawing out thetalent in their organization, of
developing people, and that'sreally what success looks like
for them.
It's developing, of developingpeople, and that's really what
success looks like for them.
It's developing people aroundthem, and that makes a lot of
sense, because a leader inthemselves has got a limited
number of hours in the week.
It's not about how much theycan do, it's about how they can
create the conditions for othersoften quite big teams,
potentially to deliver theirbest.
(07:20):
And that's a shift, becauseoften we get promoted for doing
good work ourselves, butactually we need to shift as a
leader to facilitating others todo good work, and that could
mean that our day looks quitedifferent.
So it's a move away from beingdirective and telling people
what to do, which usuallydemotivates, demoralizes and
stops people themselves workingout things and sharing their own
(07:40):
ideas of how we might do itbetter.
It's part of a learning cultureif you've got coaching, because
it's not just giving the answer,it's saying what are all the
possible answers that wetogether come up with so we can
find the best answer to pursue.
And it's a great tool forengagement, for people feeling,
yes, someone's interested in myviews and they're interested in
(08:00):
me becoming a better lawyer,director, manager, whatever it
is that we're doing.
That's part of work life aswell, not just hitting those
targets over there.
So I think it's a great thingto pursue.
There's a great thing to investin.
So I think it's a really goodfirst step if you're looking to
humanize a culture and unlockpotential.
And who isn't looking to dothat?
Colin (08:21):
And I think For me it's one of those basic managerial
skills We've talked in the pastabout.
I don't feel like enoughemphasis is placed on how do we
teach managers how to bemanagers, and there's a
distinction between coaching andmentoring.
And coaching exactly as yousaid, Cath is how do we help
people to come to the answerthemselves, whereas mentoring is
kind of?
Here's the answer.
(08:41):
What can I do to support youimplementing it?
And I think you know, certainlyin my own experience, too many
managers go straight tomentoring.
Here's the answer right, go anddo it when actually the
greatest learning comes from.
Well, you know asking, askingsomeone's question.
You know I've always used thegrow model personally.
You know how do we help peopleto get to the answer themselves,
(09:02):
such that then the learning youknow becomes embedded, rather
than just giving them theanswers.
You know it's it's quite asaying this to my daughter about
her exams is that if someonegave you all the answers, you're
not learning anything, whereasif someone actually gives you
the text to read and you createyour own notes and coach
yourself, then that's where youlearn and it's too yeah, and it
also frees the leader up in thefuture.
Cath (09:22):
They're not coming back for the next set of answers and
you can usually then start to dothe more strategic work rather
than getting sucked down intothe details of how you might do
something.
There's actually a greatharbour business review article.
I will put a link onto theaction sheet.
That sort of says beware, lotsof organizations think they're
coaching because they've donethe course, but they slip back
into directive language all thetime.
(09:45):
So it is something you need toconstantly refresh and be be
sort of really holding eachother accountable for that,
because it's very tempting to gowell, I know the answer.
Let me give it to you becauseit's quicker, but actually it's
not quicker long term to do that.
So, yeah, it's reallyinteresting area to explore.
So I'm always encouraging oforganizations wanting to create
more of a coaching culture.
Next question how much conflictshould be expected in a vibrant
(10:10):
culture?
Colin (10:11):
Oh, loads, loads.
It's the Liverpool leader andme speaking.
We should be fighting all ofthe time.
Obviously, I'm not encouragingthat, although I'm not sure if
I've shared it on the podcast.
I worked somewhere once wheresomebody did punch someone in
the face.
Cath (10:23):
That's happened in an Olympic rowing environment.
Is that right?
Oh my gosh.
Colin (10:27):
You never forget, like I'll never forget, the sound of
it, like it was a pro, like, andit wasn't even a slap, it was a
proper punch and the guy gotsacked the next day Rightly so.
Terrible, uh, how much conflictshould be expected?
Uh, some.
Um, I think what you want to dois to create an environment,
and we've talked about this onour feedback episode.
If you haven't listened to that, I encourage you to listen to
(10:49):
that.
We want to create anenvironment where it becomes
easy to share insights,knowledge, but also feedback,
like immediate feedback on whatdid we notice?
What did we see?
How can we improve what wentwell?
What are some opportunities forimprovement?
You know, my view on this hasalways been if there's no
conflict, then what you end upwith is what I call a pleasant
(11:12):
culture.
It's just a bit too nice and wewant highly emotionally
intelligent people.
That's great.
We want a degree of harmony,but there should be, you know,
kind of constant challenging ofeach other in a psychologically
safe way, where we feel likewe're working together towards a
better solution.
And so you know you should seeit every week.
(11:34):
You know, one of the bestleadership teams that I worked
in, actually here in the UK mylast job for Shop Direct Group
before I left for New Zealand in2007, we had a really what I
would call high performingleadership team.
We would go into our leadershipteam meetings knowing that, you
know, we'd a really what Iwould call high performing
leadership team.
We would go into our leadershipteam meetings knowing that we'd
done all of our preparation,the manager that we had was
really good at preparing us, andwe knew that we had an opinion.
(11:56):
It would be given some airtime,but also it would be challenged
.
Never once did I go into thosemeetings thinking, oh gosh, this
is just going to be harmonious,it's going to be nice.
There was a degree of challenge.
I always felt that that got usto a better outcome.
So there should be some healthyconflict where we're not saying
(12:16):
anything personal and we're nottaking anything personally.
It's really focused on thequality of the outcome.
Cath (12:22):
Yes.
So the way the question's askedhow much conflict should be
expected in a vibrant culture iscoming from such a sort of
quantitative space as well.
I feel like the answer shouldbe about 26 minutes a week or
something, but of course itdefinitely doesn't work like
that.
It depends a little bit on whatconflict means.
So, yeah, the punching stuff isnot good.
On no occasion is that good Forme.
(12:44):
Disagreement is really healthy.
I wouldn't see that as conflict.
I'd see that as ourresponsibility to bring our
different views in order to helpus get to better solutions,
make better decisions.
But some people might finddisagreement, as might
experience that, and think, oh,this is getting into a conflict
space.
So it's really important toactually decide and define what
(13:06):
does healthy challenge, candidfeedback, a high performance
environment what does it mean sothat when we start to say, oh,
hang on, I'm feelinguncomfortable because we're
disagreeing, we actually go no,that's what we want.
Yeah, this is what's helping usto improve, to come up with
better ideas, to create bettervalue together, to come up with
(13:27):
better ideas to create bettervalue together.
So I think it's reallyimportant to actually define,
you know, if the disagreement,the challenge, the feedback is
helping the boat go faster in arowing context, you know, or
helping our business become, getmoved closer to its purpose, to
its goals, then it's helping us.
If the conflict is serving someother purpose, it's about
(13:48):
superiority, it's winningpersonal battles that's not
helping us, that's going to pullus backwards.
So I think it's, you know, again, it's about the context and
making sure that we've got someyou know agreements, some sort
of team rules, if you like,around.
We want challenge, we invite it.
This is the space for it.
In these meetings.
(14:09):
We expect different opinions,but of course it needs to be
respectful.
We need to listen to otherviews, we need to accept that in
a diverse team, not everyone'sgoing to get the outcome they
want either.
So I think a lot of this isreally thinking those things
through that often we don't talkabout, we don't make them
explicit, and then we get into adifficult situation when we do
have different strong viewsbeing aired.
(14:30):
So it's a constant way ofdeveloping how we work as a team
, to think about where does thisfit in?
And, you know, is there a linewe want to draw?
Where something isn'trespectful, then that is not
part of a healthy culture.
So, yeah, it's a really trickyone, because it creates these
feelings of discomfort and weall, perhaps, have slightly
different natural gauge, so itis one that we have to therefore
(14:52):
discuss, because we'll come atit with different expectations.
Colin (14:56):
Fabulous, fabulous, okay.
Next question, Cath Is itpossible to have a genuine
values-based culture in thecorporate world?
Cath (15:05):
Yeah, I actually mull over this question a lot myself
sometimes, when I sort of workand see inside organizations and
feel a bit disappointed thatthey've kind of got values but
they're not really they're notimportant, they're not ones that
, under pressure, are kept toImportant people who are hitting
targets sort of don't have tolive them.
(15:26):
So I see organizations thathave values which are not
genuinely values-based.
But I think it's possible to doit.
I think a big shift has come inthe last sort of five years
where we have moved away fromthis philosophy of corporate
success being purely aboutmaximizing shareholder return.
And there was a big moment in2019 when the Business
(15:49):
Roundtable, this group of themost powerful CEOs of the
biggest corporations in America,kind of got together and said,
yes, that is not now the puredefinition of success and
brought in this bigger conceptthat there needs to be a purpose
, we need to be serving societyin a way.
And so I think where there arepurpose-driven companies
(16:10):
genuinely not thepurpose-washing companies, the
ones who understand and can seethe value that they're bringing
through what their companyprovides, the services, the
products then I think a genuinevalues-based culture fits in
more easily.
I think, when we are justpurely chasing profit returns.
It's a lot harder to do that.
(16:32):
This is something I mull over alot, because we want to and we
believe that a healthy cultureultimately is best for
performance and best for thepeople.
But you certainly see manyenvironments where that's
unlikely to happen, I'm sad tosay.
Colin (16:48):
Yeah so the four Ps quadruple bottom line, purpose,
people, planet, profit and yeahso we have seen a shift more,
with people thinking more andmore about purpose, and I share
your skepticism, Cath.
I really want to believe thatpeople understand how to do it.
(17:08):
My worry is that values was onvogue.
As often something withinculture is Values was on vogue,
kind of 2016, 17, 18, maybepre-pandemic Purpose has grabbed
the baton and now people arefocusing on purpose without
really thinking about, well, howdo we do these things?
Well, you know, I wroterecently about cultural box
(17:29):
ticking where we've got that,we've got a purpose, we've got
some values and on the valuesepisode, I shared some example
of good values.
I'm working with a startup inSwitzerland later this week and
I was talking to the CEO onFriday about his values and his
values are really good and hesaid how do we make sure that we
actually stick to these values?
Now we're scaling as a business, but, of course, what was great
(17:51):
about that is he's asking thequestion.
I don't feel that enoughorganizations are actually
thinking about how to do it.
You know and this is evident inthe actual values that they've
got you know and talked aboutthis in the past, where they're
single words, like you knowintegrity and ethical and all
these kinds of things.
They're not really values.
I think it's very hard to havea values-based culture if A
(18:13):
you're not doing values properlyand B if you're not thinking
about well, how are thesepracticed through our norms on a
day-to-day basis, recognizingthat different teams will
demonstrate them in differentways.
I think often what we see isthis let's try and mandate
culture aligned to the value,send out a PowerPoint deck with
a description of how the valueshould be lived, which, of
(18:35):
course, everybody ignores, andat that stage you haven't got a
values-based culture.
You're kind of just paying lipservice to them.
So, yeah, so I agree, I shareyour skepticism, but I'm really
hopeful that people actuallyrecognize that the next
generation of workers want tosee this done really well.
In fact, the evidence showsthat where they feel that value
(18:57):
is based and purpose is donewell, they'll stick around for
five years.
If not, then they'll leavewithin half that time.
Cath (19:04):
Yes, so it is possible.
It's definitely not a given,and because we've gone down this
route of pursuing profit at allcosts, then that has often
taken out environments.
So it's sort of then, you know,we're kind of going back, we're
trying to unpick things, butwhere there's a real commitment
and that needs to come from theleadership, then it is
(19:24):
absolutely possible and I agree,I think there's just huge
competitive advantage,particularly if you're in a
business where you needcollaboration, innovation.
You have to have a culturewhere people are thriving in
order for them to work together,share ideas, co-create, answer
questions.
These complex challenges thatthe world now gives us, that no
(19:45):
one's faced before.
So I hope that there is also anincreasing appetite to prove
that it's possible.
So the next one it feels alittle tricky because we
probably have lots of peoplelistening from the HR world, but
the question is do HR need toup their culture game?
So this is an interesting one,isn't it?
(20:06):
Because, yeah, it's a broadfield.
Hr can look quite a lot ofdifferent things.
What?
What do you think to this?
Colin (20:14):
yeah, how do we answer this without doing ourselves
like a load of work, that's nota really scouting it?
How do we answer this one doingourselves?
Cath (20:20):
without offending people listening who we really want to
work alongside and we hope we do.
Colin (20:25):
We're helping yeah, and and we do this all the time
Listen I think that the simpleanswer here is if your culture
isn't where it needs to be, then, yes, hr needs to up their
culture game, but actually theentire leadership and management
of the organization does too.
I think you know, when I wasresearching detox your culture,
(20:47):
there were a lot of exampleswhere HR was ineffective, and so
I think we have to acknowledgethat I still come across many HR
departments, actually comeacross people in culture
departments who don't reallyunderstand culture, and so I
think there's an opportunity forlearning.
In fact, you know a lot of theteams that I've worked with.
When I think back, I've workedwith a lot of IT teams,
(21:07):
engineering teams and HR teams,and I love the HR teams that
really want to know more aboutculture, and actually I worked
with one who just wanted to bethe best in the world, which was
fabulous, and so I well, Ithink, gosh.
I'm struggling to answer this alittle bit, but I think I think
what leaders need to do, whatCEOs and leaders need to do, is
actually give HR some teeth.
(21:27):
I feel like HR sometimes has aseat at the table, but if
everyone else goes, yeah, no, wecan't afford to spend money on
culture, then that's that done.
And you know, the HR managercan be screaming until they're
blue in the face and nothingwill change anyway.
And so I think, yeah, that'spartly that.
But I also think on the flipside of that listen, if I'm
(21:49):
being honest HR has to stand upand be counted a little bit more
.
I think HR has to say all ofthe evidence you know I've read
Cath book the Long Win andColin's book Culture Fix and all
of the evidence shameless plug,all of the evidence you know
demonstrates that actually, ifwe invest in our culture, we get
all of the returns.
We need to do this level ofactivity every year if you want
(22:10):
the results.
So I think, yeah, if yourculture is not where it needs to
be, yes, hr can up their game,but actually the entire
leadership and management teamneed to up theirs too.
Cath (22:19):
Culture is everyone's responsibility and it's really
important that all the leadersare role modeling it.
So sometimes I think alsoculture gets parceled off.
Oh, you sort it out, hr, do aproject, a culture change
program, and then we're done andwe can go back to the other
important stuff and you'releading it over there.
(22:40):
And I really don't like thatsort of project approach.
It might be that it's useful attimes to make some shifts and
to do some training and to kindof use a project, but to have
that as the sort of default Ifind sort of uncomfortable,
because culture is an ongoingresponsibility for leadership
teams and for everyone in theleadership team and culture of
(23:01):
an organization is often areflection of the leadership
team.
And if you don't like it, thenyou also need to do some work,
often on yourselves, to changehow you're working, and I think
that's something that often getsmissed off.
Let's change everyone else.
Let's make the others you knowdown there in the lower ends of
the hierarchy do somethingdifferent so we get the results
(23:21):
we want.
So yeah, taking fullresponsibility at the top is
important across everyone.
I think sometimes also peoplecome into HR because it's such a
broad field with specificskills, maybe around the legal
side, maybe around employmentlaw, maybe around the sort of
hiring, firing processes, whichare, of course, really, really
crucial and in the past may havebeen the skills that the
(23:45):
organization required andprioritized, and then suddenly
these people are being asked todo something quite different and
so taking a sort of legalisticapproach, you know, or a sort of
narrow let's have a process forthis.
Yeah, that doesn't really worknow, because we're dealing with
something much more complex.
So I think it's important forsort of HR to be able to then,
you know, bring in the expertiseor themselves, go on a journey
(24:06):
with the other leaders andensuring that everyone gets it
around that leadership teamtable.
Colin (24:12):
Yeah, yeah, culture is not a project because it never
ends.
Great point, okay, Cath.
Last question why isaccountability so difficult to
set up in work cultures?
Cath (24:21):
I think about this a lot.
It feels difficult even withreally quite well-functioning
leadership teams, and I think itcomes back to a lack of the
team itself having an identityat the top and you know any team
sort of lower down.
If we're very much rewarded forwhat we do on our own, then we
(24:44):
sort of it's like well, I liveand die by what I do, so I don't
want to get your view of that.
I think the sort of siloednature of organization again
means I've got no right to holdI'm in sales and I've got no
right to hold you in marketingto account, because that's your
business, I look after mine, youlook after yours and rather
than the sense of how can wehelp each other.
(25:04):
And so I think there'ssomething about some of those
internal structures, what we'rerewarding because accountability
is about shared responsibility,really it's saying we're going
to do this together and I'mgoing to hold you accountable
and you're going to hold meaccountable, so that we can
together create this, reach thisshared goal.
And often that shared goalisn't really replicated by
(25:25):
promotion structures, rewardstructures, performance
management structures, appraisalstructures.
So I think there's somethingabout the kind of individual
versus collective balance withinthe culture of organizations.
I think we also don't talk aboutwhat accountability means, and
so, again, people feelthreatened.
Are you telling me I'm not doingmy job properly?
Rather than great, you're hereto help me be even better at my
(25:48):
job and I'm going to help you beeven better at your job.
And so there's to help you beeven better at your job.
And so there's that commitmentwhich, again, in a sports
environment, thinking about therowing crews we were very much
holding each other accountablebecause we can help each other
to go faster and you can seethings I can't see, and I can
see things you can't see, andwe're committed to that.
It's no good me just developingmyself because we're part of a
crew.
And so I think often we don'tsort of set up the parameters of
(26:11):
what accountability means andfollow through and continue to
develop.
We're holding each otheraccountable on this stuff and
often it's easier to do it onhave you done a piece of work or
not?
But are we holding each otheraccountable on behaviors?
Oh, that's a bit moreuncomfortable.
So I also see this sort ofsense of you know not applying
it fully.
So I think there is quite a bitof upskilling or just having
(26:34):
more, getting more comfortablewith conversations about this
area.
Colin (26:38):
Yeah, the only thing I would add there I agree with all
of that is that we just need toget better at setting
expectations.
I think we expect people justto take accountability without
actually outlying well you know,kind of this is what it means,
this is what my expectation is,this is what I expect from you
and this is what you can expectfrom me.
We're just not very good athaving those conversations.
(26:58):
I think too often what we do iswe make assumptions that people
have taken accountability forsomething, when the reality is
we haven't outlined it in thosereally specific terms.
So then it becomes really youknow, it just becomes really
disappointing that they actuallydidn't do it.
Cath (27:15):
Why aren't we good at those conversations?
Colin (27:17):
Oh, again, it's another one of those basic management
skills, Cath?
We're not taught how to do it,and now we're becoming
increasingly lazy with ourcommunication and what we're
trying to do is passaccountability via email, and
the assumption is I've writtenthis email so you will read it
in the way that I intended, andof course that's just not true.
And so you said it.
(27:38):
Conversation.
Why don't we go to theseconversations?
You're absolutely right.
When it comes to accountability, when it comes to
responsibility, these are actualconversations where we make an
agreement and at that point itbecomes easy to take
accountability, not only forindividual performance, but also
for contribution to teamperformance too yeah, it's quite
a big topic and I think there'sprobably things in our
upbringing that impact on it aswell and just this sort of.
Cath (28:00):
For me it's very much about in an individualist
culture it somehow becomes morefeels, more threatening, more
uncomfortable, rather thanactually it.
When you get that working, it'sdriving us all to be better
together, and who doesn't wantthat?
Colin (28:15):
Absolutely Well, fabulous .
Another six questions answered.
Just a reminder.
If you've got a question, we'dlove to answer it.
You can drop us a note onLinkedIn if you follow us there,
or else email us atinsideoutculture at gmailcom.
Thanks so much, Cath.
Another lively discussion.
Cath (28:30):
Great, really thoughtful questions.
Enjoy so much, Cath.
Another lively discussion.
Great, really thoughtfulquestions.
Enjoyed that a lot.
See you soon.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out.
Colin (28:36):
Culture podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested.
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis.
Cath (00:12):
And I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Cath (00:33):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Inside Out
Culture Podcast, and today weare looking again at the culture
questions that we've receivedthrough the course of our work
or that you've sent in, andwe've got a huge range again and
these questions really enableus to dig a little deeper and
think about all of those.
But what about this type ofquestion?
(00:55):
So we're looking forward to theconversation today, colin.
Colin (00:57):
We're really looking forward to that.
We're in person, Cath, we'remaking a habit of this, and what
I love about being in personand answering these questions is
that we'll record this and thenwe'll start a conversation
about it in the middle of theother show recordings and then
we're like, oh, we should havesaid this.
Why didn't we say that?
Cath (01:16):
Yeah, we get to kind of really continue the discussions.
I always find that when I'mrecording, sort of three hours
later or in the middle of thenight, I go, oh why didn't I
mention this?
That's really important.
But actually, yeah, we're alllearning, we're all learning.
So let's kick off.
First question and this is oneI'm glad you're going to go
first on this, because the wordin this question slightly
(01:37):
triggers me how do I avoid myculture becoming fluffy?
Colin (01:42):
Oh, gosh, the fluffy word , yeah, and I can understand the
trigger, and it's one of thosethings that, I must admit, it
used to really wind me up when Iused to hear it not so much
these days, which I'll explainin a second, but it did it was
just like oh gosh, because theinference is all of this people,
stuff is worthless, it's awaste of time, and, of course,
(02:03):
that's not true.
However and this is the pointthat I want to make is often a
lot of the initiatives that weinvest in don't actually improve
performance, and I think that'sa really big issue, and so I
think the question is valid, andwhat you want and I've talked
about this or I've written aboutthis in the past is actually
(02:24):
vibrant culture sits at theintersection between high
emotional intelligence, which isoften the stuff we think of as
the fluffy stuff, and highengagement, and high engagement
really is about intrinsicmotivation.
Do we have a vision that actsas an aspiration?
How invested are we in our owndevelopment?
How invested are we incontributing to the team?
How invested are we in actuallyacting on the feedback?
(02:48):
And the feedback often is theemotional intelligence piece.
So there is a real intersection, and I think the reason that
often people think it's fluffyis they'll do away days where
they talk about stuff.
Maybe they would bring out theLego in the corporate world.
Cath (03:05):
The towel with the spaghetti.
Colin (03:06):
Oh gosh, the spaghetti and the blue tack.
I used to die inside.
Every time I saw spaghetti Iexpected when people broke it
and I'm not even Italian, orthings like personality profiles
.
I always think that's 50%.
You know, I ran a culturalworkshop in Cambridge last week
and 50% of it is on theemotional intelligence piece.
So this is this relationshipbuilding, helping people to
(03:27):
understand oneself all the time.
But 50% is well.
What do we want to dodifferently?
What's the stuff that'sfundamentally broken and holding
back performance?
How are we going to achieve ourtargets together?
What's the dumb stuff we wantto let go of?
Or what's the good stuff?
What do you see, kat?
Cath (03:43):
Yeah.
So language is important, andwhen people bring out that
fluffy word, it really irritatesme because it's just part of a
macho narrative that should beso outdated and not listened to
anymore.
That is what does it represent?
A culture of inhibition, ofdehumanizing people.
It's brittle, it'suncollaborative, it's a place
(04:04):
where people don't thrive.
That's actually what Fluffybelongs to, a way of thinking
that creates cultures like that.
And so I think all of thislanguage, that soft skills again
, that's a phrase that somehowdevalues the importance of
culture.
But this is how stuff gets done.
I mean, it doesn't get moreconcrete than that.
(04:26):
So I think it's important toreframe and to explain.
Psychological safety is notsomething soft.
It's actually about radicalcandor, a space where we can
really hold each otheraccountable to do things to a
high standard.
That is not fluffy.
And so I think you know, if youcome back to thinking about what
culture is about it's about thehabits, the beliefs, the ways
(04:50):
we do things that determine howwe get stuff done then start
asking those questions about howcan we do things better.
If you're interested inperformance, then you're
interested in culture.
So for me, there's a reframingbit here.
There's a challenging some ofthese outdated narratives, but I
do agree.
Yeah, don't just sort of think,oh well, if we all go off
bowling, then everything will befine.
No, because this is serious.
(05:11):
This is about creating a way ofdoing things together with
complex people, complexcomplementary skills.
It's not easy, and that's whywe need to invest in this and
ensure it's driving highperformance or sustainable
performance.
And ensure it's driving highperformance or sustainable
performance.
So challenge the language andthink about why culture matters.
Colin (05:30):
Yeah, and just to build on that very briefly, language
is important, so you use thingslike radical candor, and I think
there are some leaders who havean aversion to these kinds of
things.
Same with psychological safetyor the Touching American concept
.
At the end of the day, you usethe language that suits the
organization that you work in,but these things are still
really important.
Psychological safety is aboutmaking sure that people feel
(05:54):
safe to speak up at any time andthey can do their job without
fear, harassment, bullying, anyof these kinds of things.
So, absolutely right, calf'slanguage is important.
Cath (05:58):
It's about how we work.
It's about the fact we'rehumans.
If we want to get the best outof people, then let's get
investing in our cultures.
Colin (06:03):
Absolutely All right.
Next question oh, this is agood one.
What does it mean to create acoaching culture in our
organization and, crucially, isit the right thing to do?
Cath (06:14):
Yeah, really interesting question, and I hear lots of
organizations often exploringthis, wanting to do it, even
claiming they are a coachingorganization, because everyone's
had a bit of training, or a fewpeople have, and I think it's a
really helpful tool to creatinga culture where people can
thrive, where we start to reallyunlock people's potential,
where they're developed throughtheir roles.
(06:35):
They're not just machineschurning out stuff.
So I think it actually is ahuge commitment.
It's not something we just dofor a quarter and then we're
done.
We've got the coaching culture.
It's a commitment, though, to away of working that really
helps unlock potential.
It moves us away from adirective space.
So a coaching culture is one inwhich leaders see their prime
(06:58):
objective as drawing out thetalent in their organization, of
developing people, and that'sreally what success looks like
for them.
It's developing, of developingpeople, and that's really what
success looks like for them.
It's developing people aroundthem, and that makes a lot of
sense, because a leader inthemselves has got a limited
number of hours in the week.
It's not about how much theycan do, it's about how they can
create the conditions for othersoften quite big teams,
potentially to deliver theirbest.
(07:20):
And that's a shift, becauseoften we get promoted for doing
good work ourselves, butactually we need to shift as a
leader to facilitating others todo good work, and that could
mean that our day looks quitedifferent.
So it's a move away from beingdirective and telling people
what to do, which usuallydemotivates, demoralizes and
stops people themselves workingout things and sharing their own
(07:40):
ideas of how we might do itbetter.
It's part of a learning cultureif you've got coaching, because
it's not just giving the answer,it's saying what are all the
possible answers that wetogether come up with so we can
find the best answer to pursue.
And it's a great tool forengagement, for people feeling,
yes, someone's interested in myviews and they're interested in
(08:00):
me becoming a better lawyer,director, manager, whatever it
is that we're doing.
That's part of work life aswell, not just hitting those
targets over there.
So I think it's a great thingto pursue.
There's a great thing to investin.
So I think it's a really goodfirst step if you're looking to
humanize a culture and unlockpotential.
And who isn't looking to dothat?
Colin (08:21):
And I think For me it's one of those basic managerial
skills We've talked in the pastabout.
I don't feel like enoughemphasis is placed on how do we
teach managers how to bemanagers, and there's a
distinction between coaching andmentoring.
And coaching exactly as yousaid, Cath is how do we help
people to come to the answerthemselves, whereas mentoring is
kind of?
Here's the answer.
(08:41):
What can I do to support youimplementing it?
And I think you know, certainlyin my own experience, too many
managers go straight tomentoring.
Here's the answer right, go anddo it when actually the
greatest learning comes from.
Well, you know asking, askingsomeone's question.
You know I've always used thegrow model personally.
You know how do we help peopleto get to the answer themselves,
(09:02):
such that then the learning youknow becomes embedded, rather
than just giving them theanswers.
You know it's it's quite asaying this to my daughter about
her exams is that if someonegave you all the answers, you're
not learning anything, whereasif someone actually gives you
the text to read and you createyour own notes and coach
yourself, then that's where youlearn and it's too yeah, and it
also frees the leader up in thefuture.
Cath (09:22):
They're not coming back for the next set of answers and
you can usually then start to dothe more strategic work rather
than getting sucked down intothe details of how you might do
something.
There's actually a greatharbour business review article.
I will put a link onto theaction sheet.
That sort of says beware, lotsof organizations think they're
coaching because they've donethe course, but they slip back
into directive language all thetime.
(09:45):
So it is something you need toconstantly refresh and be be
sort of really holding eachother accountable for that,
because it's very tempting to gowell, I know the answer.
Let me give it to you becauseit's quicker, but actually it's
not quicker long term to do that.
So, yeah, it's reallyinteresting area to explore.
So I'm always encouraging oforganizations wanting to create
more of a coaching culture.
Next question how much conflictshould be expected in a vibrant
(10:10):
culture?
Colin (10:11):
Oh, loads, loads.
It's the Liverpool leader andme speaking.
We should be fighting all ofthe time.
Obviously, I'm not encouragingthat, although I'm not sure if
I've shared it on the podcast.
I worked somewhere once wheresomebody did punch someone in
the face.
Cath (10:23):
That's happened in an Olympic rowing environment.
Is that right?
Oh my gosh.
Colin (10:27):
You never forget, like I'll never forget, the sound of
it, like it was a pro, like, andit wasn't even a slap, it was a
proper punch and the guy gotsacked the next day Rightly so.
Terrible, uh, how much conflictshould be expected?
Uh, some.
Um, I think what you want to dois to create an environment,
and we've talked about this onour feedback episode.
If you haven't listened to that, I encourage you to listen to
(10:49):
that.
We want to create anenvironment where it becomes
easy to share insights,knowledge, but also feedback,
like immediate feedback on whatdid we notice?
What did we see?
How can we improve what wentwell?
What are some opportunities forimprovement?
You know, my view on this hasalways been if there's no
conflict, then what you end upwith is what I call a pleasant
(11:12):
culture.
It's just a bit too nice and wewant highly emotionally
intelligent people.
That's great.
We want a degree of harmony,but there should be, you know,
kind of constant challenging ofeach other in a psychologically
safe way, where we feel likewe're working together towards a
better solution.
And so you know you should seeit every week.
(11:34):
You know, one of the bestleadership teams that I worked
in, actually here in the UK mylast job for Shop Direct Group
before I left for New Zealand in2007, we had a really what I
would call high performingleadership team.
We would go into our leadershipteam meetings knowing that, you
know, we'd a really what Iwould call high performing
leadership team.
We would go into our leadershipteam meetings knowing that we'd
done all of our preparation,the manager that we had was
really good at preparing us, andwe knew that we had an opinion.
(11:56):
It would be given some airtime,but also it would be challenged
.
Never once did I go into thosemeetings thinking, oh gosh, this
is just going to be harmonious,it's going to be nice.
There was a degree of challenge.
I always felt that that got usto a better outcome.
So there should be some healthyconflict where we're not saying
(12:16):
anything personal and we're nottaking anything personally.
It's really focused on thequality of the outcome.
Cath (12:22):
Yes.
So the way the question's askedhow much conflict should be
expected in a vibrant culture iscoming from such a sort of
quantitative space as well.
I feel like the answer shouldbe about 26 minutes a week or
something, but of course itdefinitely doesn't work like
that.
It depends a little bit on whatconflict means.
So, yeah, the punching stuff isnot good.
On no occasion is that good Forme.
(12:44):
Disagreement is really healthy.
I wouldn't see that as conflict.
I'd see that as ourresponsibility to bring our
different views in order to helpus get to better solutions,
make better decisions.
But some people might finddisagreement, as might
experience that, and think, oh,this is getting into a conflict
space.
So it's really important toactually decide and define what
(13:06):
does healthy challenge, candidfeedback, a high performance
environment what does it mean sothat when we start to say, oh,
hang on, I'm feelinguncomfortable because we're
disagreeing, we actually go no,that's what we want.
Yeah, this is what's helping usto improve, to come up with
better ideas, to create bettervalue together, to come up with
(13:27):
better ideas to create bettervalue together.
So I think it's reallyimportant to actually define,
you know, if the disagreement,the challenge, the feedback is
helping the boat go faster in arowing context, you know, or
helping our business become, getmoved closer to its purpose, to
its goals, then it's helping us.
If the conflict is serving someother purpose, it's about
(13:48):
superiority, it's winningpersonal battles that's not
helping us, that's going to pullus backwards.
So I think it's, you know, again, it's about the context and
making sure that we've got someyou know agreements, some sort
of team rules, if you like,around.
We want challenge, we invite it.
This is the space for it.
In these meetings.
(14:09):
We expect different opinions,but of course it needs to be
respectful.
We need to listen to otherviews, we need to accept that in
a diverse team, not everyone'sgoing to get the outcome they
want either.
So I think a lot of this isreally thinking those things
through that often we don't talkabout, we don't make them
explicit, and then we get into adifficult situation when we do
have different strong viewsbeing aired.
(14:30):
So it's a constant way ofdeveloping how we work as a team
, to think about where does thisfit in?
And, you know, is there a linewe want to draw?
Where something isn'trespectful, then that is not
part of a healthy culture.
So, yeah, it's a really trickyone, because it creates these
feelings of discomfort and weall, perhaps, have slightly
different natural gauge, so itis one that we have to therefore
(14:52):
discuss, because we'll come atit with different expectations.
Colin (14:56):
Fabulous, fabulous, okay.
Next question, Cath Is itpossible to have a genuine
values-based culture in thecorporate world?
Cath (15:05):
Yeah, I actually mull over this question a lot myself
sometimes, when I sort of workand see inside organizations and
feel a bit disappointed thatthey've kind of got values but
they're not really they're notimportant, they're not ones that
, under pressure, are kept toImportant people who are hitting
targets sort of don't have tolive them.
(15:26):
So I see organizations thathave values which are not
genuinely values-based.
But I think it's possible to doit.
I think a big shift has come inthe last sort of five years
where we have moved away fromthis philosophy of corporate
success being purely aboutmaximizing shareholder return.
And there was a big moment in2019 when the Business
(15:49):
Roundtable, this group of themost powerful CEOs of the
biggest corporations in America,kind of got together and said,
yes, that is not now the puredefinition of success and
brought in this bigger conceptthat there needs to be a purpose
, we need to be serving societyin a way.
And so I think where there arepurpose-driven companies
(16:10):
genuinely not thepurpose-washing companies, the
ones who understand and can seethe value that they're bringing
through what their companyprovides, the services, the
products then I think a genuinevalues-based culture fits in
more easily.
I think, when we are justpurely chasing profit returns.
It's a lot harder to do that.
(16:32):
This is something I mull over alot, because we want to and we
believe that a healthy cultureultimately is best for
performance and best for thepeople.
But you certainly see manyenvironments where that's
unlikely to happen, I'm sad tosay.
Colin (16:48):
Yeah so the four Ps quadruple bottom line, purpose,
people, planet, profit and yeahso we have seen a shift more,
with people thinking more andmore about purpose, and I share
your skepticism, Cath.
I really want to believe thatpeople understand how to do it.
(17:08):
My worry is that values was onvogue.
As often something withinculture is Values was on vogue,
kind of 2016, 17, 18, maybepre-pandemic Purpose has grabbed
the baton and now people arefocusing on purpose without
really thinking about, well, howdo we do these things?
Well, you know, I wroterecently about cultural box
(17:29):
ticking where we've got that,we've got a purpose, we've got
some values and on the valuesepisode, I shared some example
of good values.
I'm working with a startup inSwitzerland later this week and
I was talking to the CEO onFriday about his values and his
values are really good and hesaid how do we make sure that we
actually stick to these values?
Now we're scaling as a business, but, of course, what was great
(17:51):
about that is he's asking thequestion.
I don't feel that enoughorganizations are actually
thinking about how to do it.
You know and this is evident inthe actual values that they've
got you know and talked aboutthis in the past, where they're
single words, like you knowintegrity and ethical and all
these kinds of things.
They're not really values.
I think it's very hard to havea values-based culture if A
(18:13):
you're not doing values properlyand B if you're not thinking
about well, how are thesepracticed through our norms on a
day-to-day basis, recognizingthat different teams will
demonstrate them in differentways.
I think often what we see isthis let's try and mandate
culture aligned to the value,send out a PowerPoint deck with
a description of how the valueshould be lived, which, of
(18:35):
course, everybody ignores, andat that stage you haven't got a
values-based culture.
You're kind of just paying lipservice to them.
So, yeah, so I agree, I shareyour skepticism, but I'm really
hopeful that people actuallyrecognize that the next
generation of workers want tosee this done really well.
In fact, the evidence showsthat where they feel that value
(18:57):
is based and purpose is donewell, they'll stick around for
five years.
If not, then they'll leavewithin half that time.
Cath (19:04):
Yes, so it is possible.
It's definitely not a given,and because we've gone down this
route of pursuing profit at allcosts, then that has often
taken out environments.
So it's sort of then, you know,we're kind of going back, we're
trying to unpick things, butwhere there's a real commitment
and that needs to come from theleadership, then it is
(19:24):
absolutely possible and I agree,I think there's just huge
competitive advantage,particularly if you're in a
business where you needcollaboration, innovation.
You have to have a culturewhere people are thriving in
order for them to work together,share ideas, co-create, answer
questions.
These complex challenges thatthe world now gives us, that no
(19:45):
one's faced before.
So I hope that there is also anincreasing appetite to prove
that it's possible.
So the next one it feels alittle tricky because we
probably have lots of peoplelistening from the HR world, but
the question is do HR need toup their culture game?
So this is an interesting one,isn't it?
(20:06):
Because, yeah, it's a broadfield.
Hr can look quite a lot ofdifferent things.
What?
What do you think to this?
Colin (20:14):
yeah, how do we answer this without doing ourselves
like a load of work, that's nota really scouting it?
How do we answer this one doingourselves?
Cath (20:20):
without offending people listening who we really want to
work alongside and we hope we do.
Colin (20:25):
We're helping yeah, and and we do this all the time
Listen I think that the simpleanswer here is if your culture
isn't where it needs to be, then, yes, hr needs to up their
culture game, but actually theentire leadership and management
of the organization does too.
I think you know, when I wasresearching detox your culture,
(20:47):
there were a lot of exampleswhere HR was ineffective, and so
I think we have to acknowledgethat I still come across many HR
departments, actually comeacross people in culture
departments who don't reallyunderstand culture, and so I
think there's an opportunity forlearning.
In fact, you know a lot of theteams that I've worked with.
When I think back, I've workedwith a lot of IT teams,
(21:07):
engineering teams and HR teams,and I love the HR teams that
really want to know more aboutculture, and actually I worked
with one who just wanted to bethe best in the world, which was
fabulous, and so I well, Ithink, gosh.
I'm struggling to answer this alittle bit, but I think I think
what leaders need to do, whatCEOs and leaders need to do, is
actually give HR some teeth.
(21:27):
I feel like HR sometimes has aseat at the table, but if
everyone else goes, yeah, no, wecan't afford to spend money on
culture, then that's that done.
And you know, the HR managercan be screaming until they're
blue in the face and nothingwill change anyway.
And so I think, yeah, that'spartly that.
But I also think on the flipside of that listen, if I'm
(21:49):
being honest HR has to stand upand be counted a little bit more
.
I think HR has to say all ofthe evidence you know I've read
Cath book the Long Win andColin's book Culture Fix and all
of the evidence shameless plug,all of the evidence you know
demonstrates that actually, ifwe invest in our culture, we get
all of the returns.
We need to do this level ofactivity every year if you want
(22:10):
the results.
So I think, yeah, if yourculture is not where it needs to
be, yes, hr can up their game,but actually the entire
leadership and management teamneed to up theirs too.
Cath (22:19):
Culture is everyone's responsibility and it's really
important that all the leadersare role modeling it.
So sometimes I think alsoculture gets parceled off.
Oh, you sort it out, hr, do aproject, a culture change
program, and then we're done andwe can go back to the other
important stuff and you'releading it over there.
(22:40):
And I really don't like thatsort of project approach.
It might be that it's useful attimes to make some shifts and
to do some training and to kindof use a project, but to have
that as the sort of default Ifind sort of uncomfortable,
because culture is an ongoingresponsibility for leadership
teams and for everyone in theleadership team and culture of
(23:01):
an organization is often areflection of the leadership
team.
And if you don't like it, thenyou also need to do some work,
often on yourselves, to changehow you're working, and I think
that's something that often getsmissed off.
Let's change everyone else.
Let's make the others you knowdown there in the lower ends of
the hierarchy do somethingdifferent so we get the results
(23:21):
we want.
So yeah, taking fullresponsibility at the top is
important across everyone.
I think sometimes also peoplecome into HR because it's such a
broad field with specificskills, maybe around the legal
side, maybe around employmentlaw, maybe around the sort of
hiring, firing processes, whichare, of course, really, really
crucial and in the past may havebeen the skills that the
(23:45):
organization required andprioritized, and then suddenly
these people are being asked todo something quite different and
so taking a sort of legalisticapproach, you know, or a sort of
narrow let's have a process forthis.
Yeah, that doesn't really worknow, because we're dealing with
something much more complex.
So I think it's important forsort of HR to be able to then,
you know, bring in the expertiseor themselves, go on a journey
(24:06):
with the other leaders andensuring that everyone gets it
around that leadership teamtable.
Colin (24:12):
Yeah, yeah, culture is not a project because it never
ends.
Great point, okay, Cath.
Last question why isaccountability so difficult to
set up in work cultures?
Cath (24:21):
I think about this a lot.
It feels difficult even withreally quite well-functioning
leadership teams, and I think itcomes back to a lack of the
team itself having an identityat the top and you know any team
sort of lower down.
If we're very much rewarded forwhat we do on our own, then we
(24:44):
sort of it's like well, I liveand die by what I do, so I don't
want to get your view of that.
I think the sort of siloednature of organization again
means I've got no right to holdI'm in sales and I've got no
right to hold you in marketingto account, because that's your
business, I look after mine, youlook after yours and rather
than the sense of how can wehelp each other.
(25:04):
And so I think there'ssomething about some of those
internal structures, what we'rerewarding because accountability
is about shared responsibility,really it's saying we're going
to do this together and I'mgoing to hold you accountable
and you're going to hold meaccountable, so that we can
together create this, reach thisshared goal.
And often that shared goalisn't really replicated by
(25:25):
promotion structures, rewardstructures, performance
management structures, appraisalstructures.
So I think there's somethingabout the kind of individual
versus collective balance withinthe culture of organizations.
I think we also don't talk aboutwhat accountability means, and
so, again, people feelthreatened.
Are you telling me I'm not doingmy job properly?
Rather than great, you're hereto help me be even better at my
(25:48):
job and I'm going to help you beeven better at your job.
And so there's to help you beeven better at your job.
And so there's that commitmentwhich, again, in a sports
environment, thinking about therowing crews we were very much
holding each other accountablebecause we can help each other
to go faster and you can seethings I can't see, and I can
see things you can't see, andwe're committed to that.
It's no good me just developingmyself because we're part of a
crew.
And so I think often we don'tsort of set up the parameters of
(26:11):
what accountability means andfollow through and continue to
develop.
We're holding each otheraccountable on this stuff and
often it's easier to do it onhave you done a piece of work or
not?
But are we holding each otheraccountable on behaviors?
Oh, that's a bit moreuncomfortable.
So I also see this sort ofsense of you know not applying
it fully.
So I think there is quite a bitof upskilling or just having
(26:34):
more, getting more comfortablewith conversations about this
area.
Colin (26:38):
Yeah, the only thing I would add there I agree with all
of that is that we just need toget better at setting
expectations.
I think we expect people justto take accountability without
actually outlying well you know,kind of this is what it means,
this is what my expectation is,this is what I expect from you
and this is what you can expectfrom me.
We're just not very good athaving those conversations.
(26:58):
I think too often what we do iswe make assumptions that people
have taken accountability forsomething, when the reality is
we haven't outlined it in thosereally specific terms.
So then it becomes really youknow, it just becomes really
disappointing that they actuallydidn't do it.
Cath (27:15):
Why aren't we good at those conversations?
Colin (27:17):
Oh, again, it's another one of those basic management
skills, Cath?
We're not taught how to do it,and now we're becoming
increasingly lazy with ourcommunication and what we're
trying to do is passaccountability via email, and
the assumption is I've writtenthis email so you will read it
in the way that I intended, andof course that's just not true.
And so you said it.
(27:38):
Conversation.
Why don't we go to theseconversations?
You're absolutely right.
When it comes to accountability, when it comes to
responsibility, these are actualconversations where we make an
agreement and at that point itbecomes easy to take
accountability, not only forindividual performance, but also
for contribution to teamperformance too yeah, it's quite
a big topic and I think there'sprobably things in our
upbringing that impact on it aswell and just this sort of.
Cath (28:00):
For me it's very much about in an individualist
culture it somehow becomes morefeels, more threatening, more
uncomfortable, rather thanactually it.
When you get that working, it'sdriving us all to be better
together, and who doesn't wantthat?
Colin (28:15):
Absolutely Well, fabulous .
Another six questions answered.
Just a reminder.
If you've got a question, we'dlove to answer it.
You can drop us a note onLinkedIn if you follow us there,
or else email us atinsideoutculture at gmailcom.
Thanks so much, Cath.
Another lively discussion.
Cath (28:30):
Great, really thoughtful questions.
Enjoy so much, Cath.
Another lively discussion.
Great, really thoughtfulquestions.
Enjoyed that a lot.
See you soon.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside Out.
Colin (28:36):
Culture podcast.
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