On this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast we are answering your questions. The issues that people face differ from industry to industry and business to business, so we look at the most pressing issues and provide insights into the things that you can do.
Specifically we look at:
- What are our thoughts on 'healthy conflict'?
- If we hire the 'right' people won't that automatically lead to a great culture?
- How do you ensure that while fixing toxicity, instilling and upholding values, you are at the same time doing things that drive/liberate performance?
- Can a toxic organisation perform well?
- Will changing the operating model of a company automatically change its culture?
- What happens to culture when you're waiting for a new CEO to start?
Don't forget that you can submit your questions for our next questions episode by using the email address below.
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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colin (00:02):
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis and I'm Cath.
Cath (00:13):
Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Hello everybody and welcome toanother episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast.
Cath (00:39):
And today we are looking at more of your questions about
culture, and of course, thatmeans that we'll be diving into
some of these really difficultdilemmas that you've been
sending to us, and it also meanswe'll be trying to think
through some frameworks, someways of thinking about culture,
because with these questions ona topic like this, it's not just
(01:01):
about what's the right answer.
There isn't one right answer.
This is a really complex field,so we'll often also be
unpicking and thinking about theframing of the question, where
that's coming from, theassumptions behind it, as well
as giving our ideas of differentways to work through it and
think of different ways forward.
So we've got some good onestoday, haven't we?
Colin (01:19):
We've got some really good ones, and I think that's a
good point is, culture is notsomething that you can copy, but
what you can do is steal reallygreat ideas from a typical
scouser, reverting to type yeah,let's just steal ideas, but it
is, you know, we, it's one ofthe things that we hope, uh,
through the podcast, is you'reinspired to try some different
things, and please do send usyour questions at
(01:40):
insideoutculture, at gmailcom,if.
If there's anything you want toknow, we'd love to answer it on
the podcast.
All right, the first question,then, Cath, today is what are
our thoughts on healthy conflict?
Cath (01:53):
So this as a phrase is an interesting concept.
Healthy conflict.
I have to say, when I'm workingwith teams, when I'm doing
talks, it's often an area thatgets a lot of questions how do
we manage conflict?
What is healthy conflict, whatisn't healthy conflict?
And, of course, conflict canlook different in different
teams in different circumstances.
(02:14):
So I think there's somethingabout.
I actually find the wordconflict not that helpful
because it's so inherentlynegative and aggressive.
And there's something aboutactually where we want to get to
as a space where we're able tochallenge each other and not
immediately see that as, oh,we're in conflict because you've
got a different view from meand you're disagreeing publicly
(02:35):
in front of other people.
So it actually comes back towhether we can create agreements
and norms around what we think.
You know I'm not going to usethe word conflict, but healthy
challenge, healthy debating,discussion, diverse viewpoints
looks like.
I mean, I've heard people talkabout productive conflict and
(02:56):
unproductive conflict and sayingthe real difference is
productive conflict will moveyou forward.
Yeah, there needs to be yoursomehow breaking through, you're
coming out in some way with thepath moving you forward from
wherever you've got stuck.
And unproductive conflict meansyou're getting trapped in sort
of debates that keep you stuckwhere you are.
You're trying to prove, you'retrying to perhaps get into a
(03:16):
personal area of you're right,this isn't working, rather than
well, what are all the differentways in which we could move it
forward?
And whilst we might have somedifferent ideas, let's start
thinking about what would be theimpact of the way you prefer to
do it and the impact of the wayI prefer to do it, and so
actually, then you get into moreof an understanding approach
and if I draw on the sort oftraining, the practice,
(03:38):
experience of the diplomaticwork we did in negotiation, then
a couple of the sort of corerules, if you like, or aims that
we always had were to try andalways stand alongside someone,
where you're both looking at theproblem rather than be looking
opposite each other with aproblem in the middle of you.
So try and get alongsidesomeone.
We've got different views at themoment about how we fix this
(04:00):
problem, but we both want to fixit, so we've got that in common
.
And now let's see, because maybethere's some elements of both
of what we think and maybethere's some elements from
outside as well.
So there is something aboutkind of trying to approach
things a bit morecollaboratively and actually
trying to understand the otherperspective that again was a
huge tool of negotiation was toreally I don't have to agree
(04:23):
with your view, but the more Iunderstand it, the more I
understand where you're comingfrom, the more you feel heard
and valued and the more Iactually might start to see some
connections between someelement of your thoughts and
some element of what I want todo.
So that kind of let's try andget into more collaborative
position whilst having differentviews.
(04:43):
Let's kind of admit, let's sortof agree that actually this is
a good meeting if we're bringingdifferent viewpoints as well,
and let's really try and thinkabout how we can understand each
other's perspective more.
Then that, I think, gets usinto a place of healthy
challenge.
Colin (04:58):
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, all the bestrelationships, all the best
teams have a little bit offriction.
I think there's this sensesometimes, Cath, that we want to
work in this you know peacefulworld where everybody's friends
and everybody gets along.
That's simply just not possible, neither is it kind of
productive.
I think that, you know, ifpeople really care, if they've
(05:20):
really got that sense ofengagement, that sense of
connection to a vision or apurpose, then you need to create
this respectful tension inorder to get there.
And that will require honestyand that will require courage.
And the goal is not to, you know, kind of create the environment
where someone's right andsomeone's wrong.
It's to actually come togetheropenly discuss, as you said,
(05:44):
openly discuss and challengeeach other and find the right
way for this team at that momentin time.
And it's not about kind ofsomeone being able to wave a
flag or lift a trophy and gothis, I'm right.
It really is about, you know,kind of working together, you
know, with a little bit offriction, to challenge each
other to get to the point wherewe agree.
You know, and anyone in along-term relationship will know
(06:06):
, it's not all roses, you know,if we look at our personal lives
.
We actually, you know, weworked through those tensions,
we worked through that fictionbecause fundamentally we're
connected to each other.
We want something in our livesand work is no different and you
know, it requiresself-awareness.
No-transcript.
(06:54):
The private sector cultureswere combating, but they, they
just knew, we just knew when tokind of rub against each other a
little bit to get the bestoutcome.
Cath (07:06):
Yeah, it comes back to the sort of deeper underpinnings of
the culture as well.
So the way we managedisagreement it depends on sort
of where we've the norms and thekind of level of trust.
And I mean, obviously, in sportthat was a space where we were
really open to challenge becauseit was always about making the
boat go faster.
It was always about performance.
So if you really disagreed withme or coaches or other experts
(07:29):
in that area, it could be quiteharsh at times, but I always
knew they're trying to make usgo faster at the Olympics.
So they might not have said iteven in the nicest of ways
compared to actually thelanguage we probably use in the
office, but I know underlying itis the belief that they think
that could make us go faster.
So I'm going to listen, I'mgoing to see, okay, how can we
find a way through here?
And then, yes, when I joinedthe civil service, none of that
(07:51):
was happening.
People were simmering away withdifferent thoughts and
frustrations and never voicingthem.
So got all this sort of silentaggression, which is not healthy
conflict Right.
It's quite a broad topic, thatone, but let's keep going
because I think we'll come backto some of that theme
potentially in other spaces aswell.
So the next question is if wehire the right people, won't
(08:15):
that automatically lead to agreat culture?
So tell me where this questionis coming from.
This is one that came to you,isn't it?
Colin (08:21):
It did.
It came from a client who'sgoing through a period of change
right now and we've beenworking on culture for a while.
They've seen some really greatresults and really starting to
wonder well, you know, when Ibring all of these people on
board, won't the culture justtake care of itself?
You know, if I'm going to takethe time to really think about
who I need, their values andthese kinds of things, Well,
(08:44):
doesn't the culture then?
Just isn't it just great?
And, of course, my answer tothis well, of course it could be
initially, but there's, youknow, that's no guarantee that
you'd be able to sustain it overa period of time, because
something I say all the time youget the culture that you choose
to build, it doesn't just builditself.
Now, you can have a lot oflike-minded people, you can have
(09:07):
some good opposites in terms ofpersonality, you can get some
of that healthy friction, butactually to sustain any level of
performance over a period oftime and you know, talk a little
bit about sports here as wellyou not only have to hire people
who have values that you know,people who have values that you
expect, but actually you need tocreate a sense of belonging.
(09:27):
You need to define how you'regoing to do this thing called
work.
You have to agree how you'regoing to behave, how you're
going to work together, howyou're going to use technology,
how you're going to make timefor creativity.
You're going to have to come upwith a vision, because only
when you actually take the timeto do all of those things do
people feel that sense ofconnection.
They're what we call engaged.
(09:50):
Otherwise, what will happen is,yes, it might be good and it
will be good in periods, but youwill never, ever sustain
performance, because you get theculture you choose to build.
And if you don't choose tobuild it, then what you're going
to get is occasionalperformance.
What you'll get is rare kind ofperformance and eventually
you'll get no performance,because it will just stagnate
because people are like well,what are we doing?
(10:10):
Why are we doing?
How are we doing?
And without those foundationsto build on, whilst you might
have the right people, you don'thave a culture that connects
those people, keeps themtogether such that performance
can be achieved.
Cath (10:23):
Yeah, I think actually the phrase right people kind of
puts me off a bit, because whosays who's right?
There's this sort of feels,very judgmental feels.
It's not going to helpincreasing the diversity of our
organisation if we're goingaround sort of saying these are
the right people.
Yeah, I completely agree.
It ignores that whole issue ofthe conditions, the environment,
(10:44):
rather than just theindividuals, and it reminds me
of our conversation about theMet Police and the fruit bowl.
What is it that's making thefruit go off?
What are those conditions inwhich poor behaviour is being
tolerated?
That's a really kind of keyarea, isn't it?
That means, as you say, it'swhat we're living, it's what
(11:04):
we're enabling, and then whatpeople learn feels like, oh,
that's right around here.
So, yeah, the whole phrasing ofthat question also just feels
like it needs reframing a bitand we need to always be
thinking about theresponsibility we have for the
environment.
Colin (11:20):
Yeah, sorry to jump in there.
You're right with regards tothe right people, I think in
their we understand what ourvalues are.
We understand the kind ofpersonalities that we need.
You know I've mentioned beforeyour skills get you the job, but
it's your personalities andvalues, sorry, your skills get
you an interview, but it's yourpersonality and your values that
(11:42):
get you the job.
So, having gone through thatprocess, I think the inference
was we've really thought aboutwho we need and, you know,
taking into considerationdiversity.
Right yeah, but won't it justtake care of itself If we've
done all of that work up front,doesn't it just happen?
And then you've got that otherquestion of oh well, do we wait,
(12:02):
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,wait until we've got all of the
people on board?
And, of course, same thing, youget the culture you choose to
build.
So if you're waiting, waiting,waiting, you haven't done any
building work, then it's justgoing to stagnate.
Cath (12:14):
Yeah, and I guess it's not just about inputs, is it?
It's not just about thediversity coming in or the
people coming in, it's all thatyou know.
That's that separation betweendiversity and inclusion.
It's not just who's in the room, it's whether they feel able to
speak up, whether they feelthey can influence and what that
feels like.
Colin (12:38):
So, and that's, of course , harder to measure, because the
inputs are easier to measureand that you know.
That's another reason why, then, I think, we put less, less
emphasis on it sometimes.
Okay, next question how do youensure that, while fixing
toxicity, instilling andupholding values, you are at the
same time doing things thatdrive or liberate performance?
Cath (12:50):
that's quite the meaty question, that one yeah, it is
huge and uh, yeah, this camefrom someone who's who's worked
in a, a large globalorganization and you know, you
can, you can hear that tension,that dilemma of right.
I I want to make sure that, youknow, we're kind of really
upholding values and we'recaring for people and people
(13:11):
feel psychologically safe, butwe've got to hit the kbis.
We've people feelpsychologically safe, but we've
got to hit the KPIs.
We've got to hit these and infact, we need to increase
productivity becauseproductivity is poor.
I mean, universallyproductivity is poor.
And then in the big globalcorporation, how do we kind of
drive that?
And so there are lots of thingsunderpinning this, I think, in
terms of the layers at whichthis question works.
(13:34):
I think one of them is what isthe interplay between
performance and culture and howare we seeing that?
Are we seeing them actuallyquite separate things or do we
realize they really should beenmeshed?
I was actually in a conversationtoday with someone where they
were talking about the valuesbeing around.
Let's do the right thing, andsomebody asked the chief
executive of this organizationtoday well, is there a
difference between doing theright thing?
(13:54):
And somebody asked the chiefexecutive of this organisation
today.
Well, is there a differencebetween doing the right thing
commercially and doing the rightthing culturally?
And he said, no, I don't seethere's a difference at all
because for the long term, doingthe right thing culturally is
always going to be best for uscommercially.
So that's coming at it sort offrom a belief that we don't need
to compromise in any way onculture and that we need that in
(14:15):
order to deliver over thelonger term, and that then sort
of steadies your thinking aboutthings.
I think the other sort of piecearound this question is this you
know this understandable needthat we've got to constantly
drive performance.
Yeah, we want to expand ourorganization, we want to hit
higher growth targets, maybecosts are going up in the supply
(14:38):
chains, et cetera, and thattherefore we have to drive it.
And that I mean I get it, andit's the dominant sort of
feeling that I see in mostorganizations.
But it fundamentally comes froma space that dates back to this
sort of 80s Wall Street piecethat we're sort of you know
we've got a whip and we are, youknow that whole concept of
driving like we drive cattle.
(14:59):
Yeah, I'm not sure we should bedriving people.
That word drive is used a lotand I even sometimes find myself
saying it and thinking, oh, I'mgetting sucked into this.
Actually, people need conditionsto do their best performance.
They need intrinsic motivations.
So their work needs to call toa sense of purpose, that they
know themselves, that they'regrowing through it, that they
feel they belong, they're partof something, that they have
(15:22):
that sort of shared long-termvision.
And then actually allowingpeople to organize themselves as
much as possible is the realgem to productivity and
performance and good growth.
And here I come back to that.
You know classic work fromFrederick Lallou, the
reinventing organizations, thatthe future organizations.
(15:42):
If we keep improving, you knowthe way an organization is
organized, we move from onethat's, you know, completely
dictated in the old days to onethat's sort of target driven.
Then we move to a stage ofself-organization where people
will do good work if they knowit's work that matters and
they're able to do it andthey're supported and challenged
and they've got the conditionsto do it.
I mean that's a huge culturechange for some organizations to
(16:04):
get there, because thatinvolves trusting people to a
huge degree.
But really that's where we needto have a clearer vision that
we're aiming in that direction,so that we're not just driving
this quarter's performance.
We are all the time thinkingabout how do we create those
conditions for people themselveswhere they're going to want to
give their best performance.
(16:25):
So that's where I've got towith it, but it's sparking a lot
of thoughts.
Where are you at?
Colin (16:30):
Yeah, and I completely agree with all of that, Cath,
and you know when I waspreparing for this question,
it's a really interesting onebecause I think a lot of
organizations have this dilemma.
I think a lot of them and I'vetalked in the past about tick
box culture.
They've got all of the kind ofconditions in place, but when
push comes to shove and theyhave a target to hit, which is
(16:50):
the most important thing and theorganizations that make culture
the most important thing willalways always hit their targets.
The people that make targetsthe most important thing may hit
their target, but they will doit to the detriment of culture.
And every piece of research andI wrote about this in Culture
(17:11):
Fix and I've written about it inDetox your Culture as well will
demonstrate that if you puttime, thought and effort into
continually evolving yourculture and doing small things I
call them micro-experiencesevery day that really contribute
to people's life at work, thenthey'll pay you back with
performance because they'll feelthat sense of intrinsic
(17:34):
motivation.
And as an employee, I've beenthere myself where I see that
the leadership team are doingthe right things, even if
there's pockets of kind of stuffthat isn't working.
I can see where we're going andI can connect my values to the
values of the organization.
We are on the right track.
We are doing the right things.
We've got to stay the course.
(17:55):
We've got to stay the course.
When you kind of really go afterthe target and then undermine
the culture, you kind of losethat sense of, you know,
connection, lose that sense ofbelonging, and all of a sudden
you're going home and going.
Well, you know why am Ibothering here?
I thought we were doing this.
And then when you've got peoplewho are driving this and it's
(18:19):
always evident towards the endof a financial year for any
corporate organization when theypull funding on culture what
you're doing there is killingthe hope that people had that
you had a commitment to makethings better, and that then
affects their intrinsicmotivation and we're like well,
what are we doing here?
And if you feel as anorganization, you start from
(18:40):
scratch every year with cultureand you're focusing on results,
then you'll eventually end uplosing the people that you need
to sustain performance over aperiod of time.
Your culture will never get towhere it needs to be, you'll
fail to attract younger talentwho want to contribute and,
consequently, performance willnever, ever be where it needs to
be and that will lead toremoval of the leadership team.
Cath (19:01):
That's a big one, isn't it ?
And we're starting to edge intothis whole productivity space,
which I think we'll probablyhave to look at at some point as
well.
Around you know this sort ofconundrum that every
organisation wants to solve andhas failed, so clearly we're not
going about it the right way.
Colin (19:16):
Yeah, and that leads into another question that we had,
Cath, then, because youmentioned about productivity is
so can toxic organizationsperform well?
So if you've got thisinherently toxic culture and and
and you know I haven't haven'tI'm going to delicately plug my
upcoming book here so I'vewritten about toxic cultures out
(19:37):
in the at the end of august andthere's kind of three levels.
You have this consistentlycombatant culture.
Combatant culture is wherethere's friction.
There's lots of friction,there's lots of poor behavior.
We've all seen this and we'rekind of like there's high stress
, there's high anxiety, there'sa lack of humility, there's
people wearing the hours thatthey work as a badge of honor,
(19:58):
there's a lot of profanity, likethat's a good thing to do.
There's lots of bias, consciousand unconscious.
And then you move to anotherlevel when that's sustained over
a period of time, we move tothis corrosive culture where we
what we start to see is bullying, harassment, shouting,
unethical behavior.
We, we kind of take that combatand culture to the next level,
(20:20):
where it's corrosive not only touh, to the people around us,
but as to individuals.
We really start to feel it andthen we get to the point where
it's harmful.
That's the next level oftoxicity physical assault,
emotional cruelty, verbal abuse,threats, ultimatums, fraud,
these kinds of things.
And so what was interesting tome when I was researching the
book is actually there are someorganizations that seem to live
(20:45):
in there permanently, and allright, let's take Twitter as an
example.
So Twitter is a great example.
Sorry, x, still Twitter, don'teven X.
What you've got there is a very, very direct owner of the
business.
I'll let me I'm being kind hereby saying direct, right, he's
got some very challenging views.
(21:05):
You know, when you get a job atX, what you're walking into.
You know, and what you're goingto get is a consistently
combatant culture at the whim ofthe owner of the business.
It might change day to day.
You literally have no idea, andthat can move into a toxic
culture.
Can you perform in there?
Yes, you can.
(21:25):
Will it be destructive?
Absolutely it will bedestructive.
So I think it really falls tothe definition of well.
What do we mean by perform well?
Can we achieve a result?
Yes, will it be to thedetriment of humans?
Very probably.
Cath (21:42):
Yeah, I love that last sentence.
I'm completely with you on that.
What do we mean by perform well?
I mean you know there aresweatshops in other parts of the
world who are churning outstuff that are probably hitting
some great results for someone,but I mean that's not going to
fit definition of whatperformance looks like and you
know it's.
It's very.
It's always short term, I think, because the costs are so high
(22:04):
and you know there will bethings that will come back and
haunt you at some point andreputationally will, will damage
you, and so, yeah, for me Irarely give a yes, no answer.
But frankly, can a toxicorganization perform well?
I want to give a clear no tothat.
Not in any sense if we have anykind of yeah sense of values
right.
(22:24):
Next one this is quiteinteresting one because it
creeps up a lot around theculture space, doesn't it?
Will changing the operatingmodel of a company automatically
change its culture?
So it's like, oh, I'm a bituncomfortable about culture.
How about if we do somethingwith the operating model where
it's on a diagram, on a piece ofpaper?
Will that work, colin?
Colin (22:45):
Will it work?
Well, kind of Again, to stay ina way that's very political
answer well, kind of.
So the operating model is thebit that kind of sits below the
strategy and the goals.
The operating model is how dowe structure our business in
order to best achieve the goalsthat we have, and so it's often
(23:05):
a crucial part of corporateorganizations, of government
definitely governmentorganizations who like to know
the bands that they sit in.
Here's the operating model,here's who's in which role and
here are their responsibilities.
But that does not create culturein and of itself.
Remember, you get the culturethat you choose to build, and I
think the phrase that peoplewill hear more often when people
(23:28):
change an operating model isdeck chairs on the Titanic.
Oh, it's like shuffling deckchairs around on the Titanic.
This is exactly what it is, andwhat they'll do is they'll move
a few people to different roles.
They'll move the really poorlyperforming person, make them
head of special projects andhope that they leave.
But that doesn't actuallychange the culture of an
organization.
So often and, Cath, we'vecovered a lot of these and in
(23:52):
fact, chelsea Football Club, aswe're recording this, they've
just agreed to part with theirmanager, mauricio Pochettino.
They're looking for a youngermanager.
He's 52.
He's younger than me.
I looked at that like a youngermanager.
How old do you need to be Like15 to manage a football club
these days?
But for me it was a clear sensethat they haven't really
(24:14):
thought too much about theculture of the club.
Now, the culture is somethingthat's sustained over time and
actually what you need is tostick with the operating model
that you've got and then allowthe manager, working with the
sporting director, to reallybuild the culture over a period
of nine to 18 months.
Richo Pochettino had started todo that.
Chelsea had ended the seasonwith some good results, he was
(24:35):
starting to really build a senseof unity with younger players,
and then he's gone and nowthey're saying, oh, we're going
for a younger manager.
It's like, well, you're justchanging the operating model a
little bit and what you've doneis undermine the culture.
You've set it back six to ninemonths and listen, then bringing
in a new person might actuallywork.
But what they've done isdamaged the short-term culture
(24:56):
and obviously we don't knoweverything that's going on
behind the scenes, but that'scertainly what it looks like to
me is that what they've done issplit the operating model
created confusion.
So no, changing the operatingmodel doesn't change the culture
.
You still get the culture youchoose to build, which happens
(25:18):
once the operating model isconfirmed.
Cath (25:19):
I think you want to be thinking about both of these,
you know so that they're inlockstep, and I think that's you
know.
If that's the in lockstep, andI think that's you know that's
the sort of the consulting,strategic consultancy's line,
the McKinsey line, isn't it thatwe need greater alignment
between the business model andthe culture and therefore we've
got to be constantly designingthat operating model to align
(25:41):
with the culture we want.
We need clarity about theculture we want rather than
somehow it's fixing an issueover there.
You know both need to be sortof developing and kind of
interlink much more and I thinkthe question also reflects that.
Traditionally we've often seenthem a bit separate.
You know, of course thatdoesn't really make sense
Practically.
They need to be.
You know the culture is howyou're going to bring that
operating model to life.
(26:02):
So that alignment is, you know,constantly realigning.
Achieving greater alignment isis then your, you know, the
leadership's role over the nextperiod.
Colin (26:12):
So, yeah, definitely doesn't get you off the culture
hook by tweaking that model yeah, and as much time should be
spent on cultural design andimplementation as is spent on
organizational design andimplementation, and that's very
often.
Cath (26:28):
Oh, yes, yes, and really again interlocked.
So you know, can you do onewithout the other?
Colin (26:33):
Okay, last question, yeah .
Cath (26:35):
Good, right We've got yeah .
Colin (26:36):
So over to you, kev.
What happens to culture whilstyou're waiting for a new CEO to
start?
Cath (26:42):
Well, first of all, culture keeps going.
Sometimes I find this because Ithink we live in a finite world
of tasks and we're fixing this,We've got a new project,
project ends.
People see culture like thatand it's almost like, oh well, I
wonder what will happen.
And the culture is going tostop until the new CEO comes in.
No, I mean all the time.
People will keep coming andthey'll keep living that culture
(27:03):
.
Now, of course it's going todepend on the culture that's
been set.
I mean, if they've left becausethey've set up a toxic culture,
then the whole place mightcrater at that point.
But actually, if they'vecreated really good values,
foundation for the culture andeverybody has great clarity
(27:23):
about the norms of behavior,then those will carry on.
Now, of course, there's rolemodeling, there's setting the
tone that comes from the top.
But again, it shouldn't be thatwe're sort of waiting
necessarily to.
If they're not here or I don'tknow what to do, I've got to
wait for the next one.
No, I'm going to carry on withwhat's been working till now,
but I guess it's best.
(27:44):
One of the best ways of tellingwhether how good a ceo has been
is what happens when they leave, and it's a little bit like
clock who who's famous forsaying um, actually, don't judge
me on sort of what I do when Iarrive or what I do here.
Judge me on how you feel aboutme when I leave.
And of course, we've just seenthis great outpouring of love
(28:05):
and warmth, not just inLiverpool, across the country,
not in this household.
Colin (28:10):
We have a just, by the way, klopp, I don't know that
name, I don't recognise it.
Cath (28:14):
Oh yeah, come on, colin, it goes like even my Arsenal
supporting husband.
Colin (28:19):
He needs to have a word with himself.
Cath (28:21):
You know, will almost shed a tear for him leaving and I'll
miss his press conferences forsure.
So I think that's you know,it's going to depend on your CEO
and in a way that's going toreally tell you what the legacy
is.
What do you think?
Colin (28:35):
Yeah, I think if you're an incoming CEO and work has
stopped on culture, it's goingto really question the
leadership team, and I'm goingto be looking at my leadership
team going wait, you've stoppedworking on culture, you're not
doing anything.
Where's your kind of list ofevents?
What are you doing to actuallymaintain it?
A great CEO will take probablybetween three to six months just
to have a look at what's goingon around them before they
(28:56):
decide to put the kind of printon the culture.
I always think it's a sign of acombatant CEO wants to come in
and change everythingimmediately, unless it's a toxic
culture, in which case usuallysomeone's been parachuted in and
that's the expectation.
They really have to startworking on it straight away.
But you can't afford to treadwater.
You can't afford just to waitand see what the new CEO will
(29:18):
bring.
Any CEO worth their salt willcome in and they'll say tell me
what we're doing to maintain theculture in line with the values
that we've got.
What's our program of events?
What's your commitment as aleadership team?
And then how can I add to that,whilst I take the time to
assess the health of theorganization?
And so for me, what happens fora culture.
(29:40):
Exactly what you said, Cath.
You carry on working on it, younever stop.
You commit to it full time andthen you wait and see what the
CEO wants to tweak and then youwork with them on that.
Cath (29:52):
Sounds good.
We have run through quite a fewtopics there, as always, took
quite a few differentperspectives that help us think
in different ways arounddifferent scenarios.
I think that come up.
So, yeah, brilliant.
Keep going with sending us yourquestions.
You can often find us onLinkedIn where we're posting
about the podcast, or send themout to insideoutculture at
(30:14):
gmailcom.
Fantastic.
Colin (30:16):
Great session.
Cath (30:17):
Thanks, Cath, good to chat , bye.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside.
Colin (30:23):
Out Culture podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested to today's Inside
Out Culture Podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested.
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
I'm Colin Ellis and I'm Cath.
Cath (00:13):
Bishop, and in each episode we'll examine a
different question or adifferent organization, and
we'll use case studies, researchand our own insights and
experiences to help you changethe way things get done in your
world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Hello everybody and welcome toanother episode of the Inside
Out Culture podcast.
Cath (00:39):
And today we are looking at more of your questions about
culture, and of course, thatmeans that we'll be diving into
some of these really difficultdilemmas that you've been
sending to us, and it also meanswe'll be trying to think
through some frameworks, someways of thinking about culture,
because with these questions ona topic like this, it's not just
(01:01):
about what's the right answer.
There isn't one right answer.
This is a really complex field,so we'll often also be
unpicking and thinking about theframing of the question, where
that's coming from, theassumptions behind it, as well
as giving our ideas of differentways to work through it and
think of different ways forward.
So we've got some good onestoday, haven't we?
Colin (01:19):
We've got some really good ones, and I think that's a
good point is, culture is notsomething that you can copy, but
what you can do is steal reallygreat ideas from a typical
scouser, reverting to type yeah,let's just steal ideas, but it
is, you know, we, it's one ofthe things that we hope, uh,
through the podcast, is you'reinspired to try some different
things, and please do send usyour questions at
(01:40):
insideoutculture, at gmailcom,if.
If there's anything you want toknow, we'd love to answer it on
the podcast.
All right, the first question,then, Cath, today is what are
our thoughts on healthy conflict?
Cath (01:53):
So this as a phrase is an interesting concept.
Healthy conflict.
I have to say, when I'm workingwith teams, when I'm doing
talks, it's often an area thatgets a lot of questions how do
we manage conflict?
What is healthy conflict, whatisn't healthy conflict?
And, of course, conflict canlook different in different
teams in different circumstances.
(02:14):
So I think there's somethingabout.
I actually find the wordconflict not that helpful
because it's so inherentlynegative and aggressive.
And there's something aboutactually where we want to get to
as a space where we're able tochallenge each other and not
immediately see that as, oh,we're in conflict because you've
got a different view from meand you're disagreeing publicly
(02:35):
in front of other people.
So it actually comes back towhether we can create agreements
and norms around what we think.
You know I'm not going to usethe word conflict, but healthy
challenge, healthy debating,discussion, diverse viewpoints
looks like.
I mean, I've heard people talkabout productive conflict and
(02:56):
unproductive conflict and sayingthe real difference is
productive conflict will moveyou forward.
Yeah, there needs to be yoursomehow breaking through, you're
coming out in some way with thepath moving you forward from
wherever you've got stuck.
And unproductive conflict meansyou're getting trapped in sort
of debates that keep you stuckwhere you are.
You're trying to prove, you'retrying to perhaps get into a
(03:16):
personal area of you're right,this isn't working, rather than
well, what are all the differentways in which we could move it
forward?
And whilst we might have somedifferent ideas, let's start
thinking about what would be theimpact of the way you prefer to
do it and the impact of the wayI prefer to do it, and so
actually, then you get into moreof an understanding approach
and if I draw on the sort oftraining, the practice,
(03:38):
experience of the diplomaticwork we did in negotiation, then
a couple of the sort of corerules, if you like, or aims that
we always had were to try andalways stand alongside someone,
where you're both looking at theproblem rather than be looking
opposite each other with aproblem in the middle of you.
So try and get alongsidesomeone.
We've got different views at themoment about how we fix this
(04:00):
problem, but we both want to fixit, so we've got that in common
.
And now let's see, because maybethere's some elements of both
of what we think and maybethere's some elements from
outside as well.
So there is something aboutkind of trying to approach
things a bit morecollaboratively and actually
trying to understand the otherperspective that again was a
huge tool of negotiation was toreally I don't have to agree
(04:23):
with your view, but the more Iunderstand it, the more I
understand where you're comingfrom, the more you feel heard
and valued and the more Iactually might start to see some
connections between someelement of your thoughts and
some element of what I want todo.
So that kind of let's try andget into more collaborative
position whilst having differentviews.
(04:43):
Let's kind of admit, let's sortof agree that actually this is
a good meeting if we're bringingdifferent viewpoints as well,
and let's really try and thinkabout how we can understand each
other's perspective more.
Then that, I think, gets usinto a place of healthy
challenge.
Colin (04:58):
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, all the bestrelationships, all the best
teams have a little bit offriction.
I think there's this sensesometimes, Cath, that we want to
work in this you know peacefulworld where everybody's friends
and everybody gets along.
That's simply just not possible, neither is it kind of
productive.
I think that, you know, ifpeople really care, if they've
(05:20):
really got that sense ofengagement, that sense of
connection to a vision or apurpose, then you need to create
this respectful tension inorder to get there.
And that will require honestyand that will require courage.
And the goal is not to, you know, kind of create the environment
where someone's right andsomeone's wrong.
It's to actually come togetheropenly discuss, as you said,
(05:44):
openly discuss and challengeeach other and find the right
way for this team at that momentin time.
And it's not about kind ofsomeone being able to wave a
flag or lift a trophy and gothis, I'm right.
It really is about, you know,kind of working together, you
know, with a little bit offriction, to challenge each
other to get to the point wherewe agree.
You know, and anyone in along-term relationship will know
(06:06):
, it's not all roses, you know,if we look at our personal lives
.
We actually, you know, weworked through those tensions,
we worked through that fictionbecause fundamentally we're
connected to each other.
We want something in our livesand work is no different and you
know, it requiresself-awareness.
No-transcript.
(06:54):
The private sector cultureswere combating, but they, they
just knew, we just knew when tokind of rub against each other a
little bit to get the bestoutcome.
Cath (07:06):
Yeah, it comes back to the sort of deeper underpinnings of
the culture as well.
So the way we managedisagreement it depends on sort
of where we've the norms and thekind of level of trust.
And I mean, obviously, in sportthat was a space where we were
really open to challenge becauseit was always about making the
boat go faster.
It was always about performance.
So if you really disagreed withme or coaches or other experts
(07:29):
in that area, it could be quiteharsh at times, but I always
knew they're trying to make usgo faster at the Olympics.
So they might not have said iteven in the nicest of ways
compared to actually thelanguage we probably use in the
office, but I know underlying itis the belief that they think
that could make us go faster.
So I'm going to listen, I'mgoing to see, okay, how can we
find a way through here?
And then, yes, when I joinedthe civil service, none of that
(07:51):
was happening.
People were simmering away withdifferent thoughts and
frustrations and never voicingthem.
So got all this sort of silentaggression, which is not healthy
conflict Right.
It's quite a broad topic, thatone, but let's keep going
because I think we'll come backto some of that theme
potentially in other spaces aswell.
So the next question is if wehire the right people, won't
(08:15):
that automatically lead to agreat culture?
So tell me where this questionis coming from.
This is one that came to you,isn't it?
Colin (08:21):
It did.
It came from a client who'sgoing through a period of change
right now and we've beenworking on culture for a while.
They've seen some really greatresults and really starting to
wonder well, you know, when Ibring all of these people on
board, won't the culture justtake care of itself?
You know, if I'm going to takethe time to really think about
who I need, their values andthese kinds of things, Well,
(08:44):
doesn't the culture then?
Just isn't it just great?
And, of course, my answer tothis well, of course it could be
initially, but there's, youknow, that's no guarantee that
you'd be able to sustain it overa period of time, because
something I say all the time youget the culture that you choose
to build, it doesn't just builditself.
Now, you can have a lot oflike-minded people, you can have
(09:07):
some good opposites in terms ofpersonality, you can get some
of that healthy friction, butactually to sustain any level of
performance over a period oftime and you know, talk a little
bit about sports here as wellyou not only have to hire people
who have values that you know,people who have values that you
expect, but actually you need tocreate a sense of belonging.
(09:27):
You need to define how you'regoing to do this thing called
work.
You have to agree how you'regoing to behave, how you're
going to work together, howyou're going to use technology,
how you're going to make timefor creativity.
You're going to have to come upwith a vision, because only
when you actually take the timeto do all of those things do
people feel that sense ofconnection.
They're what we call engaged.
(09:50):
Otherwise, what will happen is,yes, it might be good and it
will be good in periods, but youwill never, ever sustain
performance, because you get theculture you choose to build.
And if you don't choose tobuild it, then what you're going
to get is occasionalperformance.
What you'll get is rare kind ofperformance and eventually
you'll get no performance,because it will just stagnate
because people are like well,what are we doing?
(10:10):
Why are we doing?
How are we doing?
And without those foundationsto build on, whilst you might
have the right people, you don'thave a culture that connects
those people, keeps themtogether such that performance
can be achieved.
Cath (10:23):
Yeah, I think actually the phrase right people kind of
puts me off a bit, because whosays who's right?
There's this sort of feels,very judgmental feels.
It's not going to helpincreasing the diversity of our
organisation if we're goingaround sort of saying these are
the right people.
Yeah, I completely agree.
It ignores that whole issue ofthe conditions, the environment,
(10:44):
rather than just theindividuals, and it reminds me
of our conversation about theMet Police and the fruit bowl.
What is it that's making thefruit go off?
What are those conditions inwhich poor behaviour is being
tolerated?
That's a really kind of keyarea, isn't it?
That means, as you say, it'swhat we're living, it's what
(11:04):
we're enabling, and then whatpeople learn feels like, oh,
that's right around here.
So, yeah, the whole phrasing ofthat question also just feels
like it needs reframing a bitand we need to always be
thinking about theresponsibility we have for the
environment.
Colin (11:20):
Yeah, sorry to jump in there.
You're right with regards tothe right people, I think in
their we understand what ourvalues are.
We understand the kind ofpersonalities that we need.
You know I've mentioned beforeyour skills get you the job, but
it's your personalities andvalues, sorry, your skills get
you an interview, but it's yourpersonality and your values that
(11:42):
get you the job.
So, having gone through thatprocess, I think the inference
was we've really thought aboutwho we need and, you know,
taking into considerationdiversity.
Right yeah, but won't it justtake care of itself If we've
done all of that work up front,doesn't it just happen?
And then you've got that otherquestion of oh well, do we wait,
(12:02):
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,wait until we've got all of the
people on board?
And, of course, same thing, youget the culture you choose to
build.
So if you're waiting, waiting,waiting, you haven't done any
building work, then it's justgoing to stagnate.
Cath (12:14):
Yeah, and I guess it's not just about inputs, is it?
It's not just about thediversity coming in or the
people coming in, it's all thatyou know.
That's that separation betweendiversity and inclusion.
It's not just who's in the room, it's whether they feel able to
speak up, whether they feelthey can influence and what that
feels like.
Colin (12:38):
So, and that's, of course , harder to measure, because the
inputs are easier to measureand that you know.
That's another reason why, then, I think, we put less, less
emphasis on it sometimes.
Okay, next question how do youensure that, while fixing
toxicity, instilling andupholding values, you are at the
same time doing things thatdrive or liberate performance?
Cath (12:50):
that's quite the meaty question, that one yeah, it is
huge and uh, yeah, this camefrom someone who's who's worked
in a, a large globalorganization and you know, you
can, you can hear that tension,that dilemma of right.
I I want to make sure that, youknow, we're kind of really
upholding values and we'recaring for people and people
(13:11):
feel psychologically safe, butwe've got to hit the kbis.
We've people feelpsychologically safe, but we've
got to hit the KPIs.
We've got to hit these and infact, we need to increase
productivity becauseproductivity is poor.
I mean, universallyproductivity is poor.
And then in the big globalcorporation, how do we kind of
drive that?
And so there are lots of thingsunderpinning this, I think, in
terms of the layers at whichthis question works.
(13:34):
I think one of them is what isthe interplay between
performance and culture and howare we seeing that?
Are we seeing them actuallyquite separate things or do we
realize they really should beenmeshed?
I was actually in a conversationtoday with someone where they
were talking about the valuesbeing around.
Let's do the right thing, andsomebody asked the chief
executive of this organizationtoday well, is there a
difference between doing theright thing?
(13:54):
And somebody asked the chiefexecutive of this organisation
today.
Well, is there a differencebetween doing the right thing
commercially and doing the rightthing culturally?
And he said, no, I don't seethere's a difference at all
because for the long term, doingthe right thing culturally is
always going to be best for uscommercially.
So that's coming at it sort offrom a belief that we don't need
to compromise in any way onculture and that we need that in
(14:15):
order to deliver over thelonger term, and that then sort
of steadies your thinking aboutthings.
I think the other sort of piecearound this question is this you
know this understandable needthat we've got to constantly
drive performance.
Yeah, we want to expand ourorganization, we want to hit
higher growth targets, maybecosts are going up in the supply
(14:38):
chains, et cetera, and thattherefore we have to drive it.
And that I mean I get it, andit's the dominant sort of
feeling that I see in mostorganizations.
But it fundamentally comes froma space that dates back to this
sort of 80s Wall Street piecethat we're sort of you know
we've got a whip and we are, youknow that whole concept of
driving like we drive cattle.
(14:59):
Yeah, I'm not sure we should bedriving people.
That word drive is used a lotand I even sometimes find myself
saying it and thinking, oh, I'mgetting sucked into this.
Actually, people need conditionsto do their best performance.
They need intrinsic motivations.
So their work needs to call toa sense of purpose, that they
know themselves, that they'regrowing through it, that they
feel they belong, they're partof something, that they have
(15:22):
that sort of shared long-termvision.
And then actually allowingpeople to organize themselves as
much as possible is the realgem to productivity and
performance and good growth.
And here I come back to that.
You know classic work fromFrederick Lallou, the
reinventing organizations, thatthe future organizations.
(15:42):
If we keep improving, you knowthe way an organization is
organized, we move from onethat's, you know, completely
dictated in the old days to onethat's sort of target driven.
Then we move to a stage ofself-organization where people
will do good work if they knowit's work that matters and
they're able to do it andthey're supported and challenged
and they've got the conditionsto do it.
I mean that's a huge culturechange for some organizations to
(16:04):
get there, because thatinvolves trusting people to a
huge degree.
But really that's where we needto have a clearer vision that
we're aiming in that direction,so that we're not just driving
this quarter's performance.
We are all the time thinkingabout how do we create those
conditions for people themselveswhere they're going to want to
give their best performance.
(16:25):
So that's where I've got towith it, but it's sparking a lot
of thoughts.
Where are you at?
Colin (16:30):
Yeah, and I completely agree with all of that, Cath,
and you know when I waspreparing for this question,
it's a really interesting onebecause I think a lot of
organizations have this dilemma.
I think a lot of them and I'vetalked in the past about tick
box culture.
They've got all of the kind ofconditions in place, but when
push comes to shove and theyhave a target to hit, which is
(16:50):
the most important thing and theorganizations that make culture
the most important thing willalways always hit their targets.
The people that make targetsthe most important thing may hit
their target, but they will doit to the detriment of culture.
And every piece of research andI wrote about this in Culture
(17:11):
Fix and I've written about it inDetox your Culture as well will
demonstrate that if you puttime, thought and effort into
continually evolving yourculture and doing small things I
call them micro-experiencesevery day that really contribute
to people's life at work, thenthey'll pay you back with
performance because they'll feelthat sense of intrinsic
(17:34):
motivation.
And as an employee, I've beenthere myself where I see that
the leadership team are doingthe right things, even if
there's pockets of kind of stuffthat isn't working.
I can see where we're going andI can connect my values to the
values of the organization.
We are on the right track.
We are doing the right things.
We've got to stay the course.
(17:55):
We've got to stay the course.
When you kind of really go afterthe target and then undermine
the culture, you kind of losethat sense of, you know,
connection, lose that sense ofbelonging, and all of a sudden
you're going home and going.
Well, you know why am Ibothering here?
I thought we were doing this.
And then when you've got peoplewho are driving this and it's
(18:19):
always evident towards the endof a financial year for any
corporate organization when theypull funding on culture what
you're doing there is killingthe hope that people had that
you had a commitment to makethings better, and that then
affects their intrinsicmotivation and we're like well,
what are we doing here?
And if you feel as anorganization, you start from
(18:40):
scratch every year with cultureand you're focusing on results,
then you'll eventually end uplosing the people that you need
to sustain performance over aperiod of time.
Your culture will never get towhere it needs to be, you'll
fail to attract younger talentwho want to contribute and,
consequently, performance willnever, ever be where it needs to
be and that will lead toremoval of the leadership team.
Cath (19:01):
That's a big one, isn't it ?
And we're starting to edge intothis whole productivity space,
which I think we'll probablyhave to look at at some point as
well.
Around you know this sort ofconundrum that every
organisation wants to solve andhas failed, so clearly we're not
going about it the right way.
Colin (19:16):
Yeah, and that leads into another question that we had,
Cath, then, because youmentioned about productivity is
so can toxic organizationsperform well?
So if you've got thisinherently toxic culture and and
and you know I haven't haven'tI'm going to delicately plug my
upcoming book here so I'vewritten about toxic cultures out
(19:37):
in the at the end of august andthere's kind of three levels.
You have this consistentlycombatant culture.
Combatant culture is wherethere's friction.
There's lots of friction,there's lots of poor behavior.
We've all seen this and we'rekind of like there's high stress
, there's high anxiety, there'sa lack of humility, there's
people wearing the hours thatthey work as a badge of honor,
(19:58):
there's a lot of profanity, likethat's a good thing to do.
There's lots of bias, consciousand unconscious.
And then you move to anotherlevel when that's sustained over
a period of time, we move tothis corrosive culture where we
what we start to see is bullying, harassment, shouting,
unethical behavior.
We, we kind of take that combatand culture to the next level,
(20:20):
where it's corrosive not only touh, to the people around us,
but as to individuals.
We really start to feel it andthen we get to the point where
it's harmful.
That's the next level oftoxicity physical assault,
emotional cruelty, verbal abuse,threats, ultimatums, fraud,
these kinds of things.
And so what was interesting tome when I was researching the
book is actually there are someorganizations that seem to live
(20:45):
in there permanently, and allright, let's take Twitter as an
example.
So Twitter is a great example.
Sorry, x, still Twitter, don'teven X.
What you've got there is a very, very direct owner of the
business.
I'll let me I'm being kind hereby saying direct, right, he's
got some very challenging views.
(21:05):
You know, when you get a job atX, what you're walking into.
You know, and what you're goingto get is a consistently
combatant culture at the whim ofthe owner of the business.
It might change day to day.
You literally have no idea, andthat can move into a toxic
culture.
Can you perform in there?
Yes, you can.
(21:25):
Will it be destructive?
Absolutely it will bedestructive.
So I think it really falls tothe definition of well.
What do we mean by perform well?
Can we achieve a result?
Yes, will it be to thedetriment of humans?
Very probably.
Cath (21:42):
Yeah, I love that last sentence.
I'm completely with you on that.
What do we mean by perform well?
I mean you know there aresweatshops in other parts of the
world who are churning outstuff that are probably hitting
some great results for someone,but I mean that's not going to
fit definition of whatperformance looks like and you
know it's.
It's very.
It's always short term, I think, because the costs are so high
(22:04):
and you know there will bethings that will come back and
haunt you at some point andreputationally will, will damage
you, and so, yeah, for me Irarely give a yes, no answer.
But frankly, can a toxicorganization perform well?
I want to give a clear no tothat.
Not in any sense if we have anykind of yeah sense of values
right.
(22:24):
Next one this is quiteinteresting one because it
creeps up a lot around theculture space, doesn't it?
Will changing the operatingmodel of a company automatically
change its culture?
So it's like, oh, I'm a bituncomfortable about culture.
How about if we do somethingwith the operating model where
it's on a diagram, on a piece ofpaper?
Will that work, colin?
Colin (22:45):
Will it work?
Well, kind of Again, to stay ina way that's very political
answer well, kind of.
So the operating model is thebit that kind of sits below the
strategy and the goals.
The operating model is how dowe structure our business in
order to best achieve the goalsthat we have, and so it's often
(23:05):
a crucial part of corporateorganizations, of government
definitely governmentorganizations who like to know
the bands that they sit in.
Here's the operating model,here's who's in which role and
here are their responsibilities.
But that does not create culturein and of itself.
Remember, you get the culturethat you choose to build, and I
think the phrase that peoplewill hear more often when people
(23:28):
change an operating model isdeck chairs on the Titanic.
Oh, it's like shuffling deckchairs around on the Titanic.
This is exactly what it is, andwhat they'll do is they'll move
a few people to different roles.
They'll move the really poorlyperforming person, make them
head of special projects andhope that they leave.
But that doesn't actuallychange the culture of an
organization.
So often and, Cath, we'vecovered a lot of these and in
(23:52):
fact, chelsea Football Club, aswe're recording this, they've
just agreed to part with theirmanager, mauricio Pochettino.
They're looking for a youngermanager.
He's 52.
He's younger than me.
I looked at that like a youngermanager.
How old do you need to be Like15 to manage a football club
these days?
But for me it was a clear sensethat they haven't really
(24:14):
thought too much about theculture of the club.
Now, the culture is somethingthat's sustained over time and
actually what you need is tostick with the operating model
that you've got and then allowthe manager, working with the
sporting director, to reallybuild the culture over a period
of nine to 18 months.
Richo Pochettino had started todo that.
Chelsea had ended the seasonwith some good results, he was
(24:35):
starting to really build a senseof unity with younger players,
and then he's gone and nowthey're saying, oh, we're going
for a younger manager.
It's like, well, you're justchanging the operating model a
little bit and what you've doneis undermine the culture.
You've set it back six to ninemonths and listen, then bringing
in a new person might actuallywork.
But what they've done isdamaged the short-term culture
(24:56):
and obviously we don't knoweverything that's going on
behind the scenes, but that'scertainly what it looks like to
me is that what they've done issplit the operating model
created confusion.
So no, changing the operatingmodel doesn't change the culture
.
You still get the culture youchoose to build, which happens
(25:18):
once the operating model isconfirmed.
Cath (25:19):
I think you want to be thinking about both of these,
you know so that they're inlockstep, and I think that's you
know.
If that's the in lockstep, andI think that's you know that's
the sort of the consulting,strategic consultancy's line,
the McKinsey line, isn't it thatwe need greater alignment
between the business model andthe culture and therefore we've
got to be constantly designingthat operating model to align
(25:41):
with the culture we want.
We need clarity about theculture we want rather than
somehow it's fixing an issueover there.
You know both need to be sortof developing and kind of
interlink much more and I thinkthe question also reflects that.
Traditionally we've often seenthem a bit separate.
You know, of course thatdoesn't really make sense
Practically.
They need to be.
You know the culture is howyou're going to bring that
operating model to life.
(26:02):
So that alignment is, you know,constantly realigning.
Achieving greater alignment isis then your, you know, the
leadership's role over the nextperiod.
Colin (26:12):
So, yeah, definitely doesn't get you off the culture
hook by tweaking that model yeah, and as much time should be
spent on cultural design andimplementation as is spent on
organizational design andimplementation, and that's very
often.
Cath (26:28):
Oh, yes, yes, and really again interlocked.
So you know, can you do onewithout the other?
Colin (26:33):
Okay, last question, yeah .
Cath (26:35):
Good, right We've got yeah .
Colin (26:36):
So over to you, kev.
What happens to culture whilstyou're waiting for a new CEO to
start?
Cath (26:42):
Well, first of all, culture keeps going.
Sometimes I find this because Ithink we live in a finite world
of tasks and we're fixing this,We've got a new project,
project ends.
People see culture like thatand it's almost like, oh well, I
wonder what will happen.
And the culture is going tostop until the new CEO comes in.
No, I mean all the time.
People will keep coming andthey'll keep living that culture
(27:03):
.
Now, of course it's going todepend on the culture that's
been set.
I mean, if they've left becausethey've set up a toxic culture,
then the whole place mightcrater at that point.
But actually, if they'vecreated really good values,
foundation for the culture andeverybody has great clarity
(27:23):
about the norms of behavior,then those will carry on.
Now, of course, there's rolemodeling, there's setting the
tone that comes from the top.
But again, it shouldn't be thatwe're sort of waiting
necessarily to.
If they're not here or I don'tknow what to do, I've got to
wait for the next one.
No, I'm going to carry on withwhat's been working till now,
but I guess it's best.
(27:44):
One of the best ways of tellingwhether how good a ceo has been
is what happens when they leave, and it's a little bit like
clock who who's famous forsaying um, actually, don't judge
me on sort of what I do when Iarrive or what I do here.
Judge me on how you feel aboutme when I leave.
And of course, we've just seenthis great outpouring of love
(28:05):
and warmth, not just inLiverpool, across the country,
not in this household.
Colin (28:10):
We have a just, by the way, klopp, I don't know that
name, I don't recognise it.
Cath (28:14):
Oh yeah, come on, colin, it goes like even my Arsenal
supporting husband.
Colin (28:19):
He needs to have a word with himself.
Cath (28:21):
You know, will almost shed a tear for him leaving and I'll
miss his press conferences forsure.
So I think that's you know,it's going to depend on your CEO
and in a way that's going toreally tell you what the legacy
is.
What do you think?
Colin (28:35):
Yeah, I think if you're an incoming CEO and work has
stopped on culture, it's goingto really question the
leadership team, and I'm goingto be looking at my leadership
team going wait, you've stoppedworking on culture, you're not
doing anything.
Where's your kind of list ofevents?
What are you doing to actuallymaintain it?
A great CEO will take probablybetween three to six months just
to have a look at what's goingon around them before they
(28:56):
decide to put the kind of printon the culture.
I always think it's a sign of acombatant CEO wants to come in
and change everythingimmediately, unless it's a toxic
culture, in which case usuallysomeone's been parachuted in and
that's the expectation.
They really have to startworking on it straight away.
But you can't afford to treadwater.
You can't afford just to waitand see what the new CEO will
(29:18):
bring.
Any CEO worth their salt willcome in and they'll say tell me
what we're doing to maintain theculture in line with the values
that we've got.
What's our program of events?
What's your commitment as aleadership team?
And then how can I add to that,whilst I take the time to
assess the health of theorganization?
And so for me, what happens fora culture.
(29:40):
Exactly what you said, Cath.
You carry on working on it, younever stop.
You commit to it full time andthen you wait and see what the
CEO wants to tweak and then youwork with them on that.
Cath (29:52):
Sounds good.
We have run through quite a fewtopics there, as always, took
quite a few differentperspectives that help us think
in different ways arounddifferent scenarios.
I think that come up.
So, yeah, brilliant.
Keep going with sending us yourquestions.
You can often find us onLinkedIn where we're posting
about the podcast, or send themout to insideoutculture at
(30:14):
gmailcom.
Fantastic.
Colin (30:16):
Great session.
Cath (30:17):
Thanks, Cath, good to chat , bye.
Thanks for listening to today'sInside.
Colin (30:23):
Out Culture podcast.
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested to today's Inside
Out Culture Podcast.
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