July 4, 2024 • 31 mins
On this episode of the Inside Out Culture podcast we are answering your questions. The issues that people face differ from industry to industry and business to business, so we look at the most pressing issues and provide insights into the things that you can do.
Specifically we look at:
- How do I know when I need to change my culture?
- How can I help me and my team to reflect and take a step back when everyone is flat out?
- Is it possible to be both values-led and high performing at the same time?
- How important it is to do whatever it takes to win.... How do I manage this?
- How should you spend your culture budget?
- Is there a tipping point when it comes to moving from a start-up culture to something more scalable?
Don't forget that you can submit your questions for our next questions episode by using the email address below.
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Join us as we reveal strategies to close the gap and craft a workplace where values are not just spoken, but lived and breathed, paving the way for a more authentic and engaging organisational culture.
Instagram: @insideoutculture
Email your questions to: insideoutculture@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colin (00:02):
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
Cath (00:11):
I'm Colin Ellis and I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode
we'll examine a differentquestion or a different
organization, and we'll use casestudies, research and our own
insights and experiences to helpyou change the way things get
done in your world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Inside Out Culture podcast,
and today we're answeringquestions, and we're doing it in
the same country.
I mean, we're not far away,Cath, I think you're in North
London.
(00:47):
I'm near St Pancras, king'sCross Station.
I'm heading out to Cambridgetoday.
You're all stomping ground.
We're just miles away.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, hoping to getin the same room soon, but it's
progress to be in the same city.
Yes, it is.
And it's a beautiful sunny day,which I always love saying about
England because it happens likeabout 10 times a year.
(01:07):
Isn't it beautiful?
Yeah, Isn't it lovely?
All right.
So questions today.
What have we got, Cath?
Yeah.
So another Culture Questionsepisode and, as ever, quite a
set of challenging questions andas much as we will give our
thoughts and reflections andhints and tips as always it we
will give our thoughts andreflections and hints and tips.
As always, it's often aboutrethinking the question,
challenging understanding theframing of the question.
(01:29):
Because culture is so broad, weoften try and narrow it down to
a yes, no, right, wrong, whatdo I do?
And so often, you know, I thinkour thought process is about
taking a step back.
Think about actually what'sbehind the question and who else
do you need to talk to about it.
So, as always, we're trying togive you both perspective, as
(01:49):
well as some hints and tips andanswers.
So the first one is how do Iknow when I need to change my
culture?
So how do I know when I need tochange it?
I think the first point to makeis culture's evolutionary.
I think if you get to the pointwhere you actually physically
need to change it, I think thefirst point to make is culture's
evolutionary.
I think if you get to the pointwhere you actually physically
need to change it, you probablywaited a little bit too long,
(02:11):
which probably isn't a helpfulanswer.
So you're saying it's too late,but culture is evolutionary.
It's one of the reasons oftenwhen I hear culture change
project almost like it's got adefined start and a defined end.
Culture it's not like that,it's evolutionary, it's ongoing,
it's always there.
But I understand the intent ofthe question is the point of
(02:34):
okay, well, what's the point intime where I need to maybe
invest time or money in culture?
My answer here would be as soonas performance or behavioral
standards slip, that's when youreally need to think about an
investment in culture.
And I know when I think back tomy very, very early days when I
(02:55):
was a project manager for theMirror Group newspapers, way
back when, you know, we had aand this was for year 2000
projects.
We had a high performancestandard because we had so many
projects to do in such a shortspace of time, and if we felt
there was a week where we misseda milestone or we missed a
deadline, then we would almosthave like an intervention the
(03:16):
following week to say okay, well, you know, what didn't we do?
Why did we allow that to slip?
You know?
How do we maintain thatvelocity?
You know?
For me, I think, if you see thebehaviors of individuals
starting to slip, then what youneed to do in an ideal world,
what you've done is you've youknow, and it's something I've
been doing in Cambridge over thenext few days is getting the
(03:37):
team to agree the base culture,the foundational culture.
It doesn't take two days to do,but then you've got a standard
that everybody can adhere to,and then, as soon as you start
moving away from that standard,that's the time when you need to
start investing in culture.
I think as well, if you're aleader and performance is
nowhere near where it needs tobe.
I spoke to somebody last weekwho said oh, since we moved to
hybrid working, as an officeworker, since we moved to hybrid
(04:00):
working, we're not asproductive as we used to be, you
know?
And I said well, have youactually redefined your culture
for the hybrid world?
And, of course, the answer wasno, we haven't.
We haven't done any of thatwork.
So I think, as soon as yourbehavioural standards or
performance standards slip,that's when you actually need to
spend time and money redefiningthe culture.
Yeah, I mean I really want toreinforce that initial part,
(04:23):
that culture is always evolving.
So it's about thinking, notthere's certain points to invest
in it and not, but the ideal isthat we are constantly
investing in it, constantlyaware of it, noticing it,
thinking, yeah, which aspectsare being sort of brought out
most, which aspects are being abit neglected?
So it's a sort of constantengagement with culture.
(04:45):
But I think, yeah, I would say,sometimes when your gut is
telling you something or isuncomfortable in the way that
people have behaved, or you seethings that make you think, oh,
I didn't know that was okay todo round here.
Since when has that been okay?
Then I think those are sort ofreal little alarm bells to think
, yes, okay, I need tounderstand.
(05:05):
Sort of real little alarm bellsto think, yes, okay, I need to
understand first of all, ratherthan jump in and fix them.
What is it that means theculture is being pushed in that
direction?
What are the things that meanI'm suddenly seeing behaviors
that I didn't think were okaynow becoming more normalized.
So understanding what's changedand what might be driving some
of those changes.
(05:26):
So it's always getting thatkind of deeper understanding of
what's driving what you'reseeing, but your gut is often a
really good feel when you gohome.
At the end of the day,something happened that just
still sticks with you and youfeel uncomfortable about.
That's a sign that there'sprobably something that really
needs addressing.
Yeah, and I want to acknowledgethis is something that a lot of
(05:46):
leaders in a lot of differentorganisations are grappling with
.
So I've been working with theUniversity of Georgia, a team at
the University of Georgiaresearchers, and we're at the
point where we're about toimplement a tool to help people
assess where their culture isright now.
You know, one of the thingsthat I've talked about is I
really want to, I really want tohelp people to understand where
they're at at any point in timeso that they can do things to
(06:08):
help themselves.
So once that tool is available,we'll share it via the podcast,
so at least it gives leadersthat insight.
Okay, next question, Cath howcan I help me and my team to
reflect and take a step backwhen everyone is flat out and
has back-to-back diaries,back-to-back, and it's not
acceptable to do the workexpected of us?
(06:30):
That's a tough one, Cath.
That's a tough one.
It's a very current, topical.
It's the sort of thing I'veheard from more than one person
as well, and we get trapped intothese cycles.
So, first of all, take a stepback yourself, and well done for
highlighting that something'snecessary here that time to
reflect.
(06:50):
The danger is that we've got asort of short-term way of
working here that is going todamage us in the longer term.
So if we keep going like this,we'll get less done.
If we don't take time toreflect, we won't notice the
things we could do better or howto support each other,
challenge each other, innovate,evolve.
So I think you need to rolemodel it first of all, and well
(07:12):
done for recognizing it.
So show how it can be done.
I don't think it's about massesof time.
It's often the quality of time.
Sometimes, if you're having ateam meeting actually starting
off, before you dive into theagenda, start off with a
question that is a reflectivequestion what's the thing you've
(07:33):
learned in the last week?
What's something that you'venoticed from the clients we're
working with?
What trends are you seeing?
What are you feeling aboutwhat's working well in the team?
So, adding some reflectionquestions into existing meetings
, not making it.
An additional meeting, I thinkis important.
And then getting clearer onpriorities is the thing that
will help with this, so thatwe're spending time on the stuff
(07:54):
that matters.
And if we do say we need a bitmore time to reflect then what's
coming out of the diary.
We're very good at really beingclear about what's coming in
and then if something comes in,something's got to come out.
So, clearer priorities, clearerpriorities.
Could you do something anotherway?
Are you all needed in the samemeeting?
Those sorts of questions?
But actually put the reflectiontime in.
(08:15):
You know, put it in first,don't think of it as something
extra to go in at the end.
Actually, you need this to doyour best work, to come to the
work with a mindset that isfully thinking rather than
reactive.
So again, a mindful moment inbetween those back-to-back
meetings.
If you're online, make sure youhave ideally five minutes, but
even if it's one minute, beforeyou click on that next Zoom link
(08:38):
or Teams link, actually stepaway from the computer, look out
the window.
Just let your mind be free, letit wander.
Just kind of notice in yourbody a little bit where there's
tension, try and sort of groundyourself through your feet.
Just take a moment to switchoff, before you then sit down
and carry on.
So movement, physical movement,is something that's really
important as well to help ourmind to move.
(08:59):
So those are my thoughts.
What do you think, colin?
Yeah, I think that's great.
I love the mindful moment,catherine, that's really great
advice If you find yourself onendless video calls.
So Zoom fatigue is a real thing.
I spoke to the lead researcheron this at Stanford University a
couple of years ago, and thereare so many issues with sat in
front of a laptop, sat staringat a camera, not least how you
(09:22):
think of yourself when you'vegot a little picture of yourself
in the corner.
I think my advice here would bejust to echo what you said is
plan it in.
We don't prioritize thosemoments of reflection, and yet
they're so, so important for usto actually think on well, what
did we learn?
What did we do?
What worked well, what didn'twork well?
(09:42):
Also, I think as as well, whenwe have that time for reflection
, it opened.
It opens up these little trainsof thought that gives rise to
creativity.
Um, and I I think we're there'sthis sense that we have to be
always on all of the time, andif you're one of those people
that's got back-to-backs, whichI think is just a an insidious
practice that organizations havefound themselves in, is, look
(10:06):
to make your meetings 20 minuteslong instead of 30 minutes, 40
minutes long instead of 60minutes.
If you put in 60 minutes you'llfill it, but also if you make
it 40 minutes you can keep itreally tight.
And then what you find is youend up with 15, 20 minutes in
between meetings to have thosemoments of reflection, to have
those mindful moments, to kindof, you know, ground in and
breathe and exercises.
(10:27):
Anything that you can do toprioritize your productive time,
I think, is a great thing to do.
And when you have those gapswhether it's five minutes or 20
minutes don't leap into theinbox, don't just look at your
phone.
Yeah, use those productively,and that might be to have a
break, or it might be to work ona piece of work.
I think part of it is very pooremail practice that we sort of
(10:49):
get sucked into or we've gotlots of windows open or we jump
back into LinkedIn.
So there's something about alsojust being quite conscious of
not letting those moments leakin, because we can feel we're
back to back and really busy.
But actually we've also lookedat our inbox 20 times in the day
and we probably only needed tolook at it five.
You know we've linked it.
We've looked at LinkedIn 20times and we only really needed
(11:11):
to look at it twice.
So I think there are somethings there that we're not
always good at being quitehonest about and they really do
affect our productivity.
So tightening up some of thatas well, great.
Okay, now we've got a couple ofquestions that we're going to
bring us back to a couple ofthings we've talked about around
high performance cultures,around the role of values.
(11:32):
So let's look at the first oneand then some of that will
probably also help us with thesecond one.
The first one is simply is itpossible to be both values led
and high performing at the sametime?
Now I'm even interested whysomeone thinks this is a
question, but anyway, yeah, butthat's fascinating because this
is and I think we both see this,Cath.
(11:54):
We've talked offline about someof the challenges, issues,
opportunities that our clientsface, and one of them is this
either or Are we either real, dowe have really strong values
and stick to those, or are wereally high performance?
It's like, well, actually,you're both.
You know, if you want to createthis really fabulous, vibrant
(12:16):
culture, you're both.
You know.
The research says is when youhave a really strong set of
defined values, employees are115% more engaged than if you
don't.
So values are principles orstandards of behavior.
They're almost ideals that youstrive to fulfill.
And then those values theyinform the day-to-day cultural
(12:38):
norms, and it's the culturalnorms that make you high
performing.
You know, yeah.
So yeah, I mean the shortanswer is yes, that you know
this is what every organizationshould be striving for is what
are our values?
And they're unique to yourorganization, and it's a
statement, it's not a word.
But then what are the normsthat you have in support of
(12:58):
those values that really driveyou to success, whatever success
means for you?
Because if you do it in linewith the values, not only have
you got really high engagementfrom people.
So that means that they'redisciplined, they're focused,
they have structure, they'reinterested in the learning you
get from culture.
But also you've got really high, emotionally intelligent people
who feel that they can be thebest of themselves.
(13:20):
They feel that they can behonest.
Vulnerability, humility,empathy these aren't seen as a
weakness, they're seen as asuperpower.
To really charge our culture andthat's the sweet spot for
organizations is when you've gothighly emotionally intelligent
people who are really engaged inwhat they're doing, then
they're led by the values butthey help each other to perform
(13:42):
at the highest level,consistently.
And when you look at some ofthose long-term, high-performing
teams, yes, usually there's afigurehead of that team, and
we've talked in the past ofpeople like Pep Guardiola at
Manchester City, someone whoreally understands culture.
But actually the players or theemployees really demand it of
each other.
And so if you veer away fromthe values, people pull you back
(14:04):
to it and say, well, hang on aminute.
Yes, we're high performing, butwe're not doing it in a way
that supports the kind of teamthat we want to be and we've
created this real combatantculture.
So the short answer is yes, itis possible and that should be
the goal of every organization.
Yeah, it's possible.
It's essential in our view,isn't it?
Sustainably high performing andto be ethically high performing
(14:28):
.
So I think one of the things,the danger, if we go off this
high performance route withoutthe values, is we start cutting
some corners in some reallydodgy ways that often will come
back to haunt us within thatspace around ethics and
integrity.
So that's why it's so importantto be values, uh, led and
underpinned.
And I think in sport we seethat quite clearly.
(14:50):
Whether it's the you know, thedominance of the all blacks team
that's been written about, uh,whether it's, uh, yeah, you know
, the lionesses that I've spokenabout and the serena bigman, uh
, a lot and you know, a lot ofthe olympic teams this summer
will have done work that willunderpin the high performance
they are striving for constantlywith values, in order to ensure
(15:11):
that they can get the most outof themselves, they can address
issues, they can raise them,they can give really kind of
clear, candid feedback and makesure that you don't cross that
ethical line.
You know it's really important.
So, yes, it is absolutely.
And to kind of build onto thatthen with another question in
this same space um, my companysays that the process matters
(15:33):
and that values matter, but thentalks about winning a lot, how
important it is to do whateverit takes to win.
So how do I kind of managethese two things that seem to
cancel each other out and thisis where I see sort of companies
do get in a bit of a muddlealmost about understanding what
(15:54):
it means to focus on theperformance process, not just
the results, because they're sooften.
You know, the language revolvesaround results all the time and
there's a sense that talkingabout winning, being competitive
in itself drives performance,which you know I really unpick
Part of my book is unpickingthis to think that there's a
danger that some of that candrive actual, you know, almost
(16:17):
self-sabotage.
You know competition instead ofcollaboration, and so, yeah, I
mean my sort of first thoughtsare to start getting a bit more
clarification about what is itwe're trying to win, because I
find it's used very loosely inorganizations as if we talk
about winning then we'll havehigh performance, and that's
really quite a sort ofsimplistic misunderstanding of
(16:39):
what motivates people to dotheir best work.
So start to kind of just go whatis it we're trying to win and
make sure that when we have thatlanguage and that focus, it's
on something external.
So we are trying to competeagainst others in the market.
Perhaps we are trying to dosomething that improves our
market share, for example.
Not we in marketing are tryingto win against those people in
(17:01):
the sales department in hittingour targets.
That's when it gets reallydangerous.
So for me there's somethingabout clarifying and calling out
that language a little bit tomake sure that this winning
stuff doesn't seep into actuallycreating quite a toxic culture.
But for me this also shows theleadership is potentially in a
place where it doesn't quiteunderstand yet hasn't really
(17:22):
thought through at a deeperlevel.
Some of these good language Ihear, process matters, values
matter, but but aren't living it.
So leadership development, Ithink, is probably also crucial
here yeah, I think and I thinkyou've said in your, your book
as well, Cath, the long way.
Now if you haven't got the longwin, you should definitely grab
a copy that the more importanceyou place on winning, the more
(17:44):
debilitating losing comes.
And I think that's a reallygood point because, certainly in
my experience, when it's win,win, win, win, win, when you
don't win, either it reallydrains the motivation, it really
drains the morale of everybody,or else we amp up and you
mentioned that toxicity, we ampup the language so it becomes
(18:06):
really combative and you startdemanding more of people, and
then it undermines the kind ofcollaborative nature of the way
that we work in order to achievethose results.
And so I think everything thatyou said there is absolutely
spot on.
But I do want to say thatwinning, in whatever concept,
whatever it means for you, isimportant.
(18:27):
But there's a right way to win.
Um and you know, you know,interestingly, um, as we record
this, uh, england have justperformed really poorly at the
european championships, which,of course, is the only thing
that everybody wants to talkabout in england.
It might not be the case by thetime this comes out.
Obviously they might haveredeemed themselves, yes, well
yeah, yeah, hopefully they, yeah, hopefully they've won it.
(18:49):
But you know, we've talkedabout the fact, talked about the
fact that the players care toomuch, and somebody said to me is
how is it possible to care toomuch?
I was like, well, yeah, it isbecause what you can do there,
what you, what you do, is youreally care about the result to
the point where you stop takingrisks and you kind of lose that
sense of well, how do we worktogether to achieve this?
(19:09):
And you place all the emphasison yourself performing at the
highest level and it undermines,kind of the collaborative
nature of teams.
So, yes, it's important to keep, you know, whatever winning
means for you, it's important tokeep that front and center, but
recognize that the only way toachieve that goal is by working
together in line with a set ofvalues, the standards as we just
(19:32):
talked about, because you knowit's only when we work together
that we can achieve those goals,particularly in a team
environment, obviously.
One of the concepts missing forme from sort of that question
and the traps we get intoculture and organisations is the
lack of learning here.
So it's the learning piece that, over time, is going to help us
to win.
And that brings us back to theprocess, though.
(19:53):
Are we improving every day?
If we can really focus on that,the results take care of
themselves, we leap ahead, andso I think for me, you know,
really bringing managers,leaders, colleagues back into
our team meetings.
What are we learning this week?
What are we going to do betterthan we did last week?
Keep that language going.
That's where sport has gone now.
In trying to win, it focusesmuch more on learning, and that,
(20:15):
again, that's Southgate'sresponse.
It's the players, isn't it?
What are we going to learn fromthis game?
Not just thinking about theresults, but what actually is
happening, what are the thingswe're?
going to improve and thatcreates that momentum that's
going to give you the bestchance of winning over time,
given there are lots ofuncontrollables.
(20:36):
That's a good segue to the nextquestion then, Cath.
So if you have a budget forculture, what's best to spend
the money on, away days training?
What would our recommendationbe?
Away days training, you knowwhat would our recommendation be
?
So it's a really great question,and I hope that more
organizations are investing inculture.
For me, it's about coming backto that point you talked about,
(21:01):
where you've clarified what'simportant for your culture, what
you want to become as a team,as an organization, and to then
think, well, what's the gap,what do we need to develop in
order to get there?
And that's where you spend themoney.
So I don't think there's aright answer.
I think any of these thingsdevelopment, time together,
social time and away day all ofthose things can be useful.
All those things can actuallybe a waste of time as well.
So it's really aboutunderstanding where do we want
(21:23):
to get to and what are thethings that we still need to
develop or to spend time workingon that will help us get there
and to really agree that as ateam.
I think it's quite a hard thingfor a leader to sort of
absolutely decide by themselves,and it's a great opportunity to
give others a voice who mightalso be quite creative, quite
innovative about.
(21:43):
Do you know what we could spendtime developing, how we work by
you know, doing doing thisactivity, or you know, and
allowing somebody in the team aswell to bring something of
themselves to that.
So, to really tap into theresource of the team that we're
maybe not tapping into, who'sgot some skills that they could
share a bit more, or a worldthat they're involved in through
(22:05):
hobbies, sport, music, theater,whatever where we could
actually dip into that and go dosome improv comedy, or you know
, because actually it connectsto our team rather than oh, I've
just seen it on a list ofthings advertising, let's go and
do that.
You want some kind ofconnection.
If you're going to go and do arowing corporate day which is
something that I do every nowand then, which is great fun you
want it because it connects tothe team in some way.
(22:29):
They live and work in Cambridgeand see it all around them all
the time, or actually there arepeople who have been rowing, or
people have read the book Willit Make the Boat Go Faster?
And they want to use thismetaphor.
So it needs to be meaningful,is my thought, and quite
creative.
It's an opportunity, isn't it?
(22:49):
What do you think?
Yeah, creative.
It needs to be somethingdifferent.
It's an opportunity for us toshowcase our work here, Cath,
because people who have budgetfor culture, they typically hire
people like us to do somethingdifferent.
I'll be in Cambridge for thenext two and a half days working
with a team on doing that.
I think the point that I wantto make is that managers who
(23:11):
recognize the importance ofculture fight tooth and nail for
money to do culture work.
They recognize that someorganizations you know I'd like
to think this is changing stillfrown on, you know, people
spending money on culture.
So the manager that I'm workingwith over the next two and a
half days, she had to fighttooth and nail to take her team
(23:33):
off site for two days.
Now I know the results thatshe'll get because, you know, I
can point to it in my in my work.
But we're going to do somethingdifferent.
You know we've involved staff inthat.
What do you want to hear?
What do you want to see?
You know, yes, there's astructure.
You see, you know, yes, there'sa structure.
You know a very defined way ofdoing things.
But also there's 20%, where wegive staff the opportunity to
(23:54):
have a say on what they want tocover and of course, people love
that.
They're like, okay, well, we'venever done anything like this
before.
And I think if you want to, ifyou want to positively evolve
your culture, what you can'tafford to do is fall into the
trap of doing the same things inthe same way, like you've
always done them.
You know, during during COVIDwas a great example.
So I was.
I was flat out busy during thattime of COVID because people
(24:15):
wanted to redefine theircultures, because they were
working differently, which wasgreat.
But I had one CEO said to me.
He said, oh, we did theseFriday drinks.
He was like it was great forthe first three or four months,
but then people stoppedattending.
I was like, yeah, cause it,because you just got a bit lazy.
You just thought that everyonewould come to the same thing
that you do.
I was like did you change it up?
Did you have a speaker?
(24:36):
Did you play games?
What did you do?
Did you use a differentplatform?
He was like no, we just gotpeople to come and sit with a
glass of wine.
I was like did you put them inZoom rooms, different people,
different times, like a speeddating?
No, so I think you know you'vegot to really think how much
money can I get?
And then what's the best use ofit?
To inject energy, excitement, asense of something different,
(24:58):
so that people want to join in,they want to contribute and they
want to be part of somethingdifferent moving forward.
It's a lovely opportunity, isn'tit, to actually give your
people a voice in who you areand to see people beyond their
email inboxes and zoom meetings.
So yeah, good, it's a goodquestion.
Uh, so our last one is there atipping point when it comes to
(25:20):
moving from a startup culture tosomething more scalable?
so yes, it is.
I'm doing a speech about thisin Zurich next week actually.
So I'm working with anorganization who's just got to
that magical 150.
So anybody familiar withDunbar's rule of 148 people?
Yeah, so what Robin Dunbar saidis, at 148 people, that's the
(25:44):
bit where you lose the socialconnections that you had and the
best startup companies.
What they do is the owners ofthe startup and any kind of
startup culture.
What the ownership does is itretains a lot of the control
because it recognizes there's acertain level of velocity that
you need to maintain,particularly in order to get VC
funding and all of these kindsof things, and at some point
(26:07):
that velocity has to be.
Other people have to beempowered to maintain that
velocity.
It can't all be on the founders, because what you don't want is
the bottleneck got is a more ofa corporate type structure.
(26:31):
Um, really, you want to be doingit much earlier than that.
You know, as it's starting, Iremember speaking to a startup
founder in uh in sydney inaustralia and he had 12 direct
reports.
I said it's too many.
I was like at that point, whatyou need to do is start to get
that number down to about six sothat you can, you know, kind of
feasibly manage those people,but you need to empower them,
and I feel that sometimesthere's this sense of loss of
control, but actually youmaintain that sense of control
(26:53):
if you're helping, coaching,supporting people, because then
these people are employees arethen managing and maintaining
the business on your behalf.
And so I suppose my answer herewould be the sooner that you
can start empowering others tolive the values, maintain the
velocity on your behalf, thebetter.
But if you're looking for anumber, I would say anything
(27:15):
over 100 is really about thetime that you need to start
thinking about a differentcultural setup to take the
business to where you expect itto grow.
What do you say, Cath?
Interesting, like I also see atipping point that comes sort of
at a kind of earlier point, inthat there's something about
some startups when you startwith a group of eight or 10
(27:35):
people sometimes it's even likefive or six and everyone knows
what everyone is doing, up toabout 12, maybe 15.
But then as soon as you're into2030, you can no longer have
everyone knowing what everyone'sdoing and there's no sense it
doesn't make sense for you to bespending time on that either.
(27:57):
So I think also it depends onyou know that there are quite a
few different points, tippingpoints that come.
But I think there's also oneearlier where often it feels you
know you've got like-mindedfounders, those early groups.
There's huge cohesion, there'shuge a sort of real sense of
common mission in trying to getsomething off the ground, and so
(28:18):
you're really united.
And then, as you bring morepeople in, quite rightly, you
bring in some more diversity.
So then you've got moredissenting voices.
And it's this thing about youcan no longer rely on knowing
what everyone's doing and assoon as you don't know that, you
feel left out of something,particularly if you've come from
a point where you were part offive or six, where you knew
everything that was going on.
(28:38):
Suddenly, you're one of thefounders and something's
happening that you don't knowabout.
So I think there's a reallyinteresting point there.
And at all the levels that levelalso, at the level you're
talking about, 100, there can bean assumption that we sort of
put in more processes and thatwe create hierarchy.
And I think it's reallyimportant to take a step back at
(28:58):
that moment and think aboutwhat are we trying to create?
How do we want people to feelas a result of what we're going
to do in developing the cultureat this point, and to think much
more about self-organizationthan imposed organization.
So the, the sort of thinkingbehind the next level at which
companies can progress to havereally uh, you know, a culture
(29:20):
where people are empowered, ableto do really good work, is one
where you actually startremoving hierarchy, remove
boundaries and you give peoplemuch more say in what they're
involved in and what they needto know.
And this self-organizationprinciple that frederick lalu
talks about in his um uh, what'sit called?
Developing organizations book,um, which we'll link to, is
(29:40):
something that I think isunderused at the moment and a
really powerful tool that willstart to see more in cultures,
this piece around you, workingout what you need to know and
what you don't know, and thenyou feel much more comfortable
going.
Yeah, I said I didn't need toknow that, so I've got to let go
of that when it niggles at me.
So I would say bring in someself-organizing principles,
(30:01):
start reading about what thatmeans.
That's a growing element ofpurpose-driven organizations who
want to get to that next levelof empowering the organization
as it grows to do more becausepeople want to work on good work
.
So you also get these kind ofinteresting dynamics in the
companies that have really takenthis to quite an advanced stage
where people go I'm not goingto work on that project because
I know it's not going to work.
(30:21):
So I'm going to put my time onthis project and that's really
valuable because often at thetop you can't see that and
you're so driven by this sort ofsunk cost bias.
We put money into this, sowe're going to carry on.
Something we talked about in aprevious conversation that some
of these self-organizingprinciples really help us to
kind of go do you know what thatisn't working?
Let's shut it down now ratherthan doing it because we said
(30:42):
we'd do it and killing it andtaking it to the bitter end and
losing a whole lot of money andmotivation of people in the same
process.
So my thought is to startreally getting more
self-organizing principles intoyour culture as you grow
Fantastic.
Just a reminder to everybody.
If you've got a question, we'dlove to hear from you at
(31:03):
insideoutculture at gmailcom.
It can be absolutely anything.
We don't mind at all, we'll goaway and research it, but for
now, another great session.
Thanks so much, Cath yeah, I'mjust about to get figures going
outside.
I don't know if you can hearthem, so it's perfect time to
stop perfect time, all right,thanks, Cath see you soon bye
thanks for listening to today'sinside out culture podcast.
(31:27):
Please remember to like,subscribe and, of course, share
with others who you think may beinterested.
Welcome to the Inside Out Culture Podcast, where we look
at insides of working cultureand provide ideas, insights and
actions for you to take on theoutside.
Cath (00:11):
I'm Colin Ellis and I'm Cath Bishop, and in each episode
we'll examine a differentquestion or a different
organization, and we'll use casestudies, research and our own
insights and experiences to helpyou change the way things get
done in your world.
Colin (00:27):
We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Please like, subscribe and, ofcourse, let us know what you
think.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Inside Out Culture podcast,
and today we're answeringquestions, and we're doing it in
the same country.
I mean, we're not far away,Cath, I think you're in North
London.
(00:47):
I'm near St Pancras, king'sCross Station.
I'm heading out to Cambridgetoday.
You're all stomping ground.
We're just miles away.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, hoping to getin the same room soon, but it's
progress to be in the same city.
Yes, it is.
And it's a beautiful sunny day,which I always love saying about
England because it happens likeabout 10 times a year.
(01:07):
Isn't it beautiful?
Yeah, Isn't it lovely?
All right.
So questions today.
What have we got, Cath?
Yeah.
So another Culture Questionsepisode and, as ever, quite a
set of challenging questions andas much as we will give our
thoughts and reflections andhints and tips as always it we
will give our thoughts andreflections and hints and tips.
As always, it's often aboutrethinking the question,
challenging understanding theframing of the question.
(01:29):
Because culture is so broad, weoften try and narrow it down to
a yes, no, right, wrong, whatdo I do?
And so often, you know, I thinkour thought process is about
taking a step back.
Think about actually what'sbehind the question and who else
do you need to talk to about it.
So, as always, we're trying togive you both perspective, as
(01:49):
well as some hints and tips andanswers.
So the first one is how do Iknow when I need to change my
culture?
So how do I know when I need tochange it?
I think the first point to makeis culture's evolutionary.
I think if you get to the pointwhere you actually physically
need to change it, I think thefirst point to make is culture's
evolutionary.
I think if you get to the pointwhere you actually physically
need to change it, you probablywaited a little bit too long,
(02:11):
which probably isn't a helpfulanswer.
So you're saying it's too late,but culture is evolutionary.
It's one of the reasons oftenwhen I hear culture change
project almost like it's got adefined start and a defined end.
Culture it's not like that,it's evolutionary, it's ongoing,
it's always there.
But I understand the intent ofthe question is the point of
(02:34):
okay, well, what's the point intime where I need to maybe
invest time or money in culture?
My answer here would be as soonas performance or behavioral
standards slip, that's when youreally need to think about an
investment in culture.
And I know when I think back tomy very, very early days when I
(02:55):
was a project manager for theMirror Group newspapers, way
back when, you know, we had aand this was for year 2000
projects.
We had a high performancestandard because we had so many
projects to do in such a shortspace of time, and if we felt
there was a week where we misseda milestone or we missed a
deadline, then we would almosthave like an intervention the
(03:16):
following week to say okay, well, you know, what didn't we do?
Why did we allow that to slip?
You know?
How do we maintain thatvelocity?
You know?
For me, I think, if you see thebehaviors of individuals
starting to slip, then what youneed to do in an ideal world,
what you've done is you've youknow, and it's something I've
been doing in Cambridge over thenext few days is getting the
(03:37):
team to agree the base culture,the foundational culture.
It doesn't take two days to do,but then you've got a standard
that everybody can adhere to,and then, as soon as you start
moving away from that standard,that's the time when you need to
start investing in culture.
I think as well, if you're aleader and performance is
nowhere near where it needs tobe.
I spoke to somebody last weekwho said oh, since we moved to
hybrid working, as an officeworker, since we moved to hybrid
(04:00):
working, we're not asproductive as we used to be, you
know?
And I said well, have youactually redefined your culture
for the hybrid world?
And, of course, the answer wasno, we haven't.
We haven't done any of thatwork.
So I think, as soon as yourbehavioural standards or
performance standards slip,that's when you actually need to
spend time and money redefiningthe culture.
Yeah, I mean I really want toreinforce that initial part,
(04:23):
that culture is always evolving.
So it's about thinking, notthere's certain points to invest
in it and not, but the ideal isthat we are constantly
investing in it, constantlyaware of it, noticing it,
thinking, yeah, which aspectsare being sort of brought out
most, which aspects are being abit neglected?
So it's a sort of constantengagement with culture.
(04:45):
But I think, yeah, I would say,sometimes when your gut is
telling you something or isuncomfortable in the way that
people have behaved, or you seethings that make you think, oh,
I didn't know that was okay todo round here.
Since when has that been okay?
Then I think those are sort ofreal little alarm bells to think
, yes, okay, I need tounderstand.
(05:05):
Sort of real little alarm bellsto think, yes, okay, I need to
understand first of all, ratherthan jump in and fix them.
What is it that means theculture is being pushed in that
direction?
What are the things that meanI'm suddenly seeing behaviors
that I didn't think were okaynow becoming more normalized.
So understanding what's changedand what might be driving some
of those changes.
(05:26):
So it's always getting thatkind of deeper understanding of
what's driving what you'reseeing, but your gut is often a
really good feel when you gohome.
At the end of the day,something happened that just
still sticks with you and youfeel uncomfortable about.
That's a sign that there'sprobably something that really
needs addressing.
Yeah, and I want to acknowledgethis is something that a lot of
(05:46):
leaders in a lot of differentorganisations are grappling with
.
So I've been working with theUniversity of Georgia, a team at
the University of Georgiaresearchers, and we're at the
point where we're about toimplement a tool to help people
assess where their culture isright now.
You know, one of the thingsthat I've talked about is I
really want to, I really want tohelp people to understand where
they're at at any point in timeso that they can do things to
(06:08):
help themselves.
So once that tool is available,we'll share it via the podcast,
so at least it gives leadersthat insight.
Okay, next question, Cath howcan I help me and my team to
reflect and take a step backwhen everyone is flat out and
has back-to-back diaries,back-to-back, and it's not
acceptable to do the workexpected of us?
(06:30):
That's a tough one, Cath.
That's a tough one.
It's a very current, topical.
It's the sort of thing I'veheard from more than one person
as well, and we get trapped intothese cycles.
So, first of all, take a stepback yourself, and well done for
highlighting that something'snecessary here that time to
reflect.
(06:50):
The danger is that we've got asort of short-term way of
working here that is going todamage us in the longer term.
So if we keep going like this,we'll get less done.
If we don't take time toreflect, we won't notice the
things we could do better or howto support each other,
challenge each other, innovate,evolve.
So I think you need to rolemodel it first of all, and well
(07:12):
done for recognizing it.
So show how it can be done.
I don't think it's about massesof time.
It's often the quality of time.
Sometimes, if you're having ateam meeting actually starting
off, before you dive into theagenda, start off with a
question that is a reflectivequestion what's the thing you've
(07:33):
learned in the last week?
What's something that you'venoticed from the clients we're
working with?
What trends are you seeing?
What are you feeling aboutwhat's working well in the team?
So, adding some reflectionquestions into existing meetings
, not making it.
An additional meeting, I thinkis important.
And then getting clearer onpriorities is the thing that
will help with this, so thatwe're spending time on the stuff
(07:54):
that matters.
And if we do say we need a bitmore time to reflect then what's
coming out of the diary.
We're very good at really beingclear about what's coming in
and then if something comes in,something's got to come out.
So, clearer priorities, clearerpriorities.
Could you do something anotherway?
Are you all needed in the samemeeting?
Those sorts of questions?
But actually put the reflectiontime in.
(08:15):
You know, put it in first,don't think of it as something
extra to go in at the end.
Actually, you need this to doyour best work, to come to the
work with a mindset that isfully thinking rather than
reactive.
So again, a mindful moment inbetween those back-to-back
meetings.
If you're online, make sure youhave ideally five minutes, but
even if it's one minute, beforeyou click on that next Zoom link
(08:38):
or Teams link, actually stepaway from the computer, look out
the window.
Just let your mind be free, letit wander.
Just kind of notice in yourbody a little bit where there's
tension, try and sort of groundyourself through your feet.
Just take a moment to switchoff, before you then sit down
and carry on.
So movement, physical movement,is something that's really
important as well to help ourmind to move.
(08:59):
So those are my thoughts.
What do you think, colin?
Yeah, I think that's great.
I love the mindful moment,catherine, that's really great
advice If you find yourself onendless video calls.
So Zoom fatigue is a real thing.
I spoke to the lead researcheron this at Stanford University a
couple of years ago, and thereare so many issues with sat in
front of a laptop, sat staringat a camera, not least how you
(09:22):
think of yourself when you'vegot a little picture of yourself
in the corner.
I think my advice here would bejust to echo what you said is
plan it in.
We don't prioritize thosemoments of reflection, and yet
they're so, so important for usto actually think on well, what
did we learn?
What did we do?
What worked well, what didn'twork well?
(09:42):
Also, I think as as well, whenwe have that time for reflection
, it opened.
It opens up these little trainsof thought that gives rise to
creativity.
Um, and I I think we're there'sthis sense that we have to be
always on all of the time, andif you're one of those people
that's got back-to-backs, whichI think is just a an insidious
practice that organizations havefound themselves in, is, look
(10:06):
to make your meetings 20 minuteslong instead of 30 minutes, 40
minutes long instead of 60minutes.
If you put in 60 minutes you'llfill it, but also if you make
it 40 minutes you can keep itreally tight.
And then what you find is youend up with 15, 20 minutes in
between meetings to have thosemoments of reflection, to have
those mindful moments, to kindof, you know, ground in and
breathe and exercises.
(10:27):
Anything that you can do toprioritize your productive time,
I think, is a great thing to do.
And when you have those gapswhether it's five minutes or 20
minutes don't leap into theinbox, don't just look at your
phone.
Yeah, use those productively,and that might be to have a
break, or it might be to work ona piece of work.
I think part of it is very pooremail practice that we sort of
(10:49):
get sucked into or we've gotlots of windows open or we jump
back into LinkedIn.
So there's something about alsojust being quite conscious of
not letting those moments leakin, because we can feel we're
back to back and really busy.
But actually we've also lookedat our inbox 20 times in the day
and we probably only needed tolook at it five.
You know we've linked it.
We've looked at LinkedIn 20times and we only really needed
(11:11):
to look at it twice.
So I think there are somethings there that we're not
always good at being quitehonest about and they really do
affect our productivity.
So tightening up some of thatas well, great.
Okay, now we've got a couple ofquestions that we're going to
bring us back to a couple ofthings we've talked about around
high performance cultures,around the role of values.
(11:32):
So let's look at the first oneand then some of that will
probably also help us with thesecond one.
The first one is simply is itpossible to be both values led
and high performing at the sametime?
Now I'm even interested whysomeone thinks this is a
question, but anyway, yeah, butthat's fascinating because this
is and I think we both see this,Cath.
(11:54):
We've talked offline about someof the challenges, issues,
opportunities that our clientsface, and one of them is this
either or Are we either real, dowe have really strong values
and stick to those, or are wereally high performance?
It's like, well, actually,you're both.
You know, if you want to createthis really fabulous, vibrant
(12:16):
culture, you're both.
You know.
The research says is when youhave a really strong set of
defined values, employees are115% more engaged than if you
don't.
So values are principles orstandards of behavior.
They're almost ideals that youstrive to fulfill.
And then those values theyinform the day-to-day cultural
(12:38):
norms, and it's the culturalnorms that make you high
performing.
You know, yeah.
So yeah, I mean the shortanswer is yes, that you know
this is what every organizationshould be striving for is what
are our values?
And they're unique to yourorganization, and it's a
statement, it's not a word.
But then what are the normsthat you have in support of
(12:58):
those values that really driveyou to success, whatever success
means for you?
Because if you do it in linewith the values, not only have
you got really high engagementfrom people.
So that means that they'redisciplined, they're focused,
they have structure, they'reinterested in the learning you
get from culture.
But also you've got really high, emotionally intelligent people
who feel that they can be thebest of themselves.
(13:20):
They feel that they can behonest.
Vulnerability, humility,empathy these aren't seen as a
weakness, they're seen as asuperpower.
To really charge our culture andthat's the sweet spot for
organizations is when you've gothighly emotionally intelligent
people who are really engaged inwhat they're doing, then
they're led by the values butthey help each other to perform
(13:42):
at the highest level,consistently.
And when you look at some ofthose long-term, high-performing
teams, yes, usually there's afigurehead of that team, and
we've talked in the past ofpeople like Pep Guardiola at
Manchester City, someone whoreally understands culture.
But actually the players or theemployees really demand it of
each other.
And so if you veer away fromthe values, people pull you back
(14:04):
to it and say, well, hang on aminute.
Yes, we're high performing, butwe're not doing it in a way
that supports the kind of teamthat we want to be and we've
created this real combatantculture.
So the short answer is yes, itis possible and that should be
the goal of every organization.
Yeah, it's possible.
It's essential in our view,isn't it?
Sustainably high performing andto be ethically high performing
(14:28):
.
So I think one of the things,the danger, if we go off this
high performance route withoutthe values, is we start cutting
some corners in some reallydodgy ways that often will come
back to haunt us within thatspace around ethics and
integrity.
So that's why it's so importantto be values, uh, led and
underpinned.
And I think in sport we seethat quite clearly.
(14:50):
Whether it's the you know, thedominance of the all blacks team
that's been written about, uh,whether it's, uh, yeah, you know
, the lionesses that I've spokenabout and the serena bigman, uh
, a lot and you know, a lot ofthe olympic teams this summer
will have done work that willunderpin the high performance
they are striving for constantlywith values, in order to ensure
(15:11):
that they can get the most outof themselves, they can address
issues, they can raise them,they can give really kind of
clear, candid feedback and makesure that you don't cross that
ethical line.
You know it's really important.
So, yes, it is absolutely.
And to kind of build onto thatthen with another question in
this same space um, my companysays that the process matters
(15:33):
and that values matter, but thentalks about winning a lot, how
important it is to do whateverit takes to win.
So how do I kind of managethese two things that seem to
cancel each other out and thisis where I see sort of companies
do get in a bit of a muddlealmost about understanding what
(15:54):
it means to focus on theperformance process, not just
the results, because they're sooften.
You know, the language revolvesaround results all the time and
there's a sense that talkingabout winning, being competitive
in itself drives performance,which you know I really unpick
Part of my book is unpickingthis to think that there's a
danger that some of that candrive actual, you know, almost
(16:17):
self-sabotage.
You know competition instead ofcollaboration, and so, yeah, I
mean my sort of first thoughtsare to start getting a bit more
clarification about what is itwe're trying to win, because I
find it's used very loosely inorganizations as if we talk
about winning then we'll havehigh performance, and that's
really quite a sort ofsimplistic misunderstanding of
(16:39):
what motivates people to dotheir best work.
So start to kind of just go whatis it we're trying to win and
make sure that when we have thatlanguage and that focus, it's
on something external.
So we are trying to competeagainst others in the market.
Perhaps we are trying to dosomething that improves our
market share, for example.
Not we in marketing are tryingto win against those people in
(17:01):
the sales department in hittingour targets.
That's when it gets reallydangerous.
So for me there's somethingabout clarifying and calling out
that language a little bit tomake sure that this winning
stuff doesn't seep into actuallycreating quite a toxic culture.
But for me this also shows theleadership is potentially in a
place where it doesn't quiteunderstand yet hasn't really
(17:22):
thought through at a deeperlevel.
Some of these good language Ihear, process matters, values
matter, but but aren't living it.
So leadership development, Ithink, is probably also crucial
here yeah, I think and I thinkyou've said in your, your book
as well, Cath, the long way.
Now if you haven't got the longwin, you should definitely grab
a copy that the more importanceyou place on winning, the more
(17:44):
debilitating losing comes.
And I think that's a reallygood point because, certainly in
my experience, when it's win,win, win, win, win, when you
don't win, either it reallydrains the motivation, it really
drains the morale of everybody,or else we amp up and you
mentioned that toxicity, we ampup the language so it becomes
(18:06):
really combative and you startdemanding more of people, and
then it undermines the kind ofcollaborative nature of the way
that we work in order to achievethose results.
And so I think everything thatyou said there is absolutely
spot on.
But I do want to say thatwinning, in whatever concept,
whatever it means for you, isimportant.
(18:27):
But there's a right way to win.
Um and you know, you know,interestingly, um, as we record
this, uh, england have justperformed really poorly at the
european championships, which,of course, is the only thing
that everybody wants to talkabout in england.
It might not be the case by thetime this comes out.
Obviously they might haveredeemed themselves, yes, well
yeah, yeah, hopefully they, yeah, hopefully they've won it.
(18:49):
But you know, we've talkedabout the fact, talked about the
fact that the players care toomuch, and somebody said to me is
how is it possible to care toomuch?
I was like, well, yeah, it isbecause what you can do there,
what you, what you do, is youreally care about the result to
the point where you stop takingrisks and you kind of lose that
sense of well, how do we worktogether to achieve this?
(19:09):
And you place all the emphasison yourself performing at the
highest level and it undermines,kind of the collaborative
nature of teams.
So, yes, it's important to keep, you know, whatever winning
means for you, it's important tokeep that front and center, but
recognize that the only way toachieve that goal is by working
together in line with a set ofvalues, the standards as we just
(19:32):
talked about, because you knowit's only when we work together
that we can achieve those goals,particularly in a team
environment, obviously.
One of the concepts missing forme from sort of that question
and the traps we get intoculture and organisations is the
lack of learning here.
So it's the learning piece that, over time, is going to help us
to win.
And that brings us back to theprocess, though.
(19:53):
Are we improving every day?
If we can really focus on that,the results take care of
themselves, we leap ahead, andso I think for me, you know,
really bringing managers,leaders, colleagues back into
our team meetings.
What are we learning this week?
What are we going to do betterthan we did last week?
Keep that language going.
That's where sport has gone now.
In trying to win, it focusesmuch more on learning, and that,
(20:15):
again, that's Southgate'sresponse.
It's the players, isn't it?
What are we going to learn fromthis game?
Not just thinking about theresults, but what actually is
happening, what are the thingswe're?
going to improve and thatcreates that momentum that's
going to give you the bestchance of winning over time,
given there are lots ofuncontrollables.
(20:36):
That's a good segue to the nextquestion then, Cath.
So if you have a budget forculture, what's best to spend
the money on, away days training?
What would our recommendationbe?
Away days training, you knowwhat would our recommendation be
?
So it's a really great question,and I hope that more
organizations are investing inculture.
For me, it's about coming backto that point you talked about,
(21:01):
where you've clarified what'simportant for your culture, what
you want to become as a team,as an organization, and to then
think, well, what's the gap,what do we need to develop in
order to get there?
And that's where you spend themoney.
So I don't think there's aright answer.
I think any of these thingsdevelopment, time together,
social time and away day all ofthose things can be useful.
All those things can actuallybe a waste of time as well.
So it's really aboutunderstanding where do we want
(21:23):
to get to and what are thethings that we still need to
develop or to spend time workingon that will help us get there
and to really agree that as ateam.
I think it's quite a hard thingfor a leader to sort of
absolutely decide by themselves,and it's a great opportunity to
give others a voice who mightalso be quite creative, quite
innovative about.
(21:43):
Do you know what we could spendtime developing, how we work by
you know, doing doing thisactivity, or you know, and
allowing somebody in the team aswell to bring something of
themselves to that.
So, to really tap into theresource of the team that we're
maybe not tapping into, who'sgot some skills that they could
share a bit more, or a worldthat they're involved in through
(22:05):
hobbies, sport, music, theater,whatever where we could
actually dip into that and go dosome improv comedy, or you know
, because actually it connectsto our team rather than oh, I've
just seen it on a list ofthings advertising, let's go and
do that.
You want some kind ofconnection.
If you're going to go and do arowing corporate day which is
something that I do every nowand then, which is great fun you
want it because it connects tothe team in some way.
(22:29):
They live and work in Cambridgeand see it all around them all
the time, or actually there arepeople who have been rowing, or
people have read the book Willit Make the Boat Go Faster?
And they want to use thismetaphor.
So it needs to be meaningful,is my thought, and quite
creative.
It's an opportunity, isn't it?
(22:49):
What do you think?
Yeah, creative.
It needs to be somethingdifferent.
It's an opportunity for us toshowcase our work here, Cath,
because people who have budgetfor culture, they typically hire
people like us to do somethingdifferent.
I'll be in Cambridge for thenext two and a half days working
with a team on doing that.
I think the point that I wantto make is that managers who
(23:11):
recognize the importance ofculture fight tooth and nail for
money to do culture work.
They recognize that someorganizations you know I'd like
to think this is changing stillfrown on, you know, people
spending money on culture.
So the manager that I'm workingwith over the next two and a
half days, she had to fighttooth and nail to take her team
(23:33):
off site for two days.
Now I know the results thatshe'll get because, you know, I
can point to it in my in my work.
But we're going to do somethingdifferent.
You know we've involved staff inthat.
What do you want to hear?
What do you want to see?
You know, yes, there's astructure.
You see, you know, yes, there'sa structure.
You know a very defined way ofdoing things.
But also there's 20%, where wegive staff the opportunity to
(23:54):
have a say on what they want tocover and of course, people love
that.
They're like, okay, well, we'venever done anything like this
before.
And I think if you want to, ifyou want to positively evolve
your culture, what you can'tafford to do is fall into the
trap of doing the same things inthe same way, like you've
always done them.
You know, during during COVIDwas a great example.
So I was.
I was flat out busy during thattime of COVID because people
(24:15):
wanted to redefine theircultures, because they were
working differently, which wasgreat.
But I had one CEO said to me.
He said, oh, we did theseFriday drinks.
He was like it was great forthe first three or four months,
but then people stoppedattending.
I was like, yeah, cause it,because you just got a bit lazy.
You just thought that everyonewould come to the same thing
that you do.
I was like did you change it up?
Did you have a speaker?
(24:36):
Did you play games?
What did you do?
Did you use a differentplatform?
He was like no, we just gotpeople to come and sit with a
glass of wine.
I was like did you put them inZoom rooms, different people,
different times, like a speeddating?
No, so I think you know you'vegot to really think how much
money can I get?
And then what's the best use ofit?
To inject energy, excitement, asense of something different,
(24:58):
so that people want to join in,they want to contribute and they
want to be part of somethingdifferent moving forward.
It's a lovely opportunity, isn'tit, to actually give your
people a voice in who you areand to see people beyond their
email inboxes and zoom meetings.
So yeah, good, it's a goodquestion.
Uh, so our last one is there atipping point when it comes to
(25:20):
moving from a startup culture tosomething more scalable?
so yes, it is.
I'm doing a speech about thisin Zurich next week actually.
So I'm working with anorganization who's just got to
that magical 150.
So anybody familiar withDunbar's rule of 148 people?
Yeah, so what Robin Dunbar saidis, at 148 people, that's the
(25:44):
bit where you lose the socialconnections that you had and the
best startup companies.
What they do is the owners ofthe startup and any kind of
startup culture.
What the ownership does is itretains a lot of the control
because it recognizes there's acertain level of velocity that
you need to maintain,particularly in order to get VC
funding and all of these kindsof things, and at some point
(26:07):
that velocity has to be.
Other people have to beempowered to maintain that
velocity.
It can't all be on the founders, because what you don't want is
the bottleneck got is a more ofa corporate type structure.
(26:31):
Um, really, you want to be doingit much earlier than that.
You know, as it's starting, Iremember speaking to a startup
founder in uh in sydney inaustralia and he had 12 direct
reports.
I said it's too many.
I was like at that point, whatyou need to do is start to get
that number down to about six sothat you can, you know, kind of
feasibly manage those people,but you need to empower them,
and I feel that sometimesthere's this sense of loss of
control, but actually youmaintain that sense of control
(26:53):
if you're helping, coaching,supporting people, because then
these people are employees arethen managing and maintaining
the business on your behalf.
And so I suppose my answer herewould be the sooner that you
can start empowering others tolive the values, maintain the
velocity on your behalf, thebetter.
But if you're looking for anumber, I would say anything
(27:15):
over 100 is really about thetime that you need to start
thinking about a differentcultural setup to take the
business to where you expect itto grow.
What do you say, Cath?
Interesting, like I also see atipping point that comes sort of
at a kind of earlier point, inthat there's something about
some startups when you startwith a group of eight or 10
(27:35):
people sometimes it's even likefive or six and everyone knows
what everyone is doing, up toabout 12, maybe 15.
But then as soon as you're into2030, you can no longer have
everyone knowing what everyone'sdoing and there's no sense it
doesn't make sense for you to bespending time on that either.
(27:57):
So I think also it depends onyou know that there are quite a
few different points, tippingpoints that come.
But I think there's also oneearlier where often it feels you
know you've got like-mindedfounders, those early groups.
There's huge cohesion, there'shuge a sort of real sense of
common mission in trying to getsomething off the ground, and so
(28:18):
you're really united.
And then, as you bring morepeople in, quite rightly, you
bring in some more diversity.
So then you've got moredissenting voices.
And it's this thing about youcan no longer rely on knowing
what everyone's doing and assoon as you don't know that, you
feel left out of something,particularly if you've come from
a point where you were part offive or six, where you knew
everything that was going on.
(28:38):
Suddenly, you're one of thefounders and something's
happening that you don't knowabout.
So I think there's a reallyinteresting point there.
And at all the levels that levelalso, at the level you're
talking about, 100, there can bean assumption that we sort of
put in more processes and thatwe create hierarchy.
And I think it's reallyimportant to take a step back at
(28:58):
that moment and think aboutwhat are we trying to create?
How do we want people to feelas a result of what we're going
to do in developing the cultureat this point, and to think much
more about self-organizationthan imposed organization.
So the, the sort of thinkingbehind the next level at which
companies can progress to havereally uh, you know, a culture
(29:20):
where people are empowered, ableto do really good work, is one
where you actually startremoving hierarchy, remove
boundaries and you give peoplemuch more say in what they're
involved in and what they needto know.
And this self-organizationprinciple that frederick lalu
talks about in his um uh, what'sit called?
Developing organizations book,um, which we'll link to, is
(29:40):
something that I think isunderused at the moment and a
really powerful tool that willstart to see more in cultures,
this piece around you, workingout what you need to know and
what you don't know, and thenyou feel much more comfortable
going.
Yeah, I said I didn't need toknow that, so I've got to let go
of that when it niggles at me.
So I would say bring in someself-organizing principles,
(30:01):
start reading about what thatmeans.
That's a growing element ofpurpose-driven organizations who
want to get to that next levelof empowering the organization
as it grows to do more becausepeople want to work on good work
.
So you also get these kind ofinteresting dynamics in the
companies that have really takenthis to quite an advanced stage
where people go I'm not goingto work on that project because
I know it's not going to work.
(30:21):
So I'm going to put my time onthis project and that's really
valuable because often at thetop you can't see that and
you're so driven by this sort ofsunk cost bias.
We put money into this, sowe're going to carry on.
Something we talked about in aprevious conversation that some
of these self-organizingprinciples really help us to
kind of go do you know what thatisn't working?
Let's shut it down now ratherthan doing it because we said
(30:42):
we'd do it and killing it andtaking it to the bitter end and
losing a whole lot of money andmotivation of people in the same
process.
So my thought is to startreally getting more
self-organizing principles intoyour culture as you grow
Fantastic.
Just a reminder to everybody.
If you've got a question, we'dlove to hear from you at
(31:03):
insideoutculture at gmailcom.
It can be absolutely anything.
We don't mind at all, we'll goaway and research it, but for
now, another great session.
Thanks so much, Cath yeah, I'mjust about to get figures going
outside.
I don't know if you can hearthem, so it's perfect time to
stop perfect time, all right,thanks, Cath see you soon bye
thanks for listening to today'sinside out culture podcast.
(31:27):
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