January 12, 2022 • 43 mins
Quality Assurance professionals are tasked with bringing continuous improvement to organizations. This means change. Change can evoke emotions. Do we prepare our quality professionals to navigate emotional conflict?
This episode discusses tactics to minimize and de-escalate conflict in the workplace with help from Joel Reinesch, Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice at Dakota Wesleyan University, former Police Officer, and Marine.
Special Agent Wade Krieger inspired the idea for this podcast and had planned to record this with me. He passed away in 2021. The episode is a tribute to him.
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Episode Transcript
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Aaron Harmon (00:00):
Hi, I'm Aaron Harman and this is inside out
(00:02):
quality, a podcast about reallife events and experiences
shared by our guests of whenthings have gone wrong, and how
we can learn from them to buildbetter products, companies and
improve lives through aneffective quality system.
January 8 2020, I sat in my carwith Diane Cox in the parking
(00:23):
lot of the medical devicesupplier in the Minneapolis
area. We had just completed anaudit. a month earlier I reached
out to NASA when I saw the pressrelease for the SAP a supplier
investigation. I was sointrigued that I wanted to know
who performed the investigationto uncover the fraud. They
connected me to Wade, the planwas to ask way to present a clip
at a local quality ProfessionalsNetwork we have in Sioux Falls,
South Dakota. Well, we talkedall I could think of is how
(00:46):
amazing it was. I could talkwith someone who helped uncover
something plaguing such a largeasset like NASA, it seems short
sighted to have way present,just equip it and then move on.
I want to talk more than just asingle presentation. I wanted
the story to be captured andpreserved. And so a podcast was
a solution. On the phone Ilistened to wade talked about
pivot at the end mentioned thepodcast idea. Fast forward to
(01:08):
August 2020. I have Diane onboard for the podcast to be a co
host. We met with Nate pepleabout the idea and our need for
audio support. Joanie extraSouth Dakota biotech agreed to
help support it financially. AndBarbara was there to help us
with the graphics. We knew wewanted to iron out any kinks
before recording Wade So myfriend Doug Moffat and his wife
Robin agreed to be our firstguest. Next, we record wade in
(01:30):
October 2020. The episode endedand launched in December,
weighed in I had talked enoughat that point to know there must
be more we should record. Iasked if he knew of any other
good lessons from NASA he couldshare and we agreed to talk
again. The episode launchedSeason One ended with 10
episodes and plans for seasontwo, we're underway. We texted a
few more times. And then inJuly, I had an idea for what
(01:51):
weighed my next episode could beI texted away, and he responded
he was second need some time torecover and then we could talk.
Five days later he texted againsaying it was taking him longer
to recover than expected. And Itold him not to worry we had a
few months easily before we needto record September 29 2021. I'm
having coffee with Jenny andplanning the next episodes for
(02:12):
season two. I want to record anepisode on navigating emotions
and de escalation of conflict.
And I remember Wade, I textedhim to check in but the text
bounce back I sent another whichfailed to that I read the
previous texts we had his searchjust named by Google. It took a
little more time to confirm butthe world had lost way Krieger
This was later confirmed by theOffice of Inspector General.
(02:32):
While thinking of the topic atthe coffee shop, I was now
confronted with emotions andchange. I was sad for the loss
of weight, and I began tearingup over coffee. While sitting
there with Jenny. We are allhumans full of emotions, ideas,
hopes, dreams and fears. qualityprofessionals are deployed in
the workplace to help bringchange. But what happens when
that change rouses emotions andconflict? So what does emotional
(02:54):
conflict look like? Sharing anexample with me is a friend
Bree.
Bree Cox (03:01):
I was fairly new in my job. And so I was a supervisor.
And I was still like, probablynot even a month in. So I'm
still learning my job, let alonemy employees jobs like I I had
didn't know what they weredoing. My employee made an
honest mistake. Unfortunately,it caused a large amount of what
(03:26):
we would call rework, productwas bad stuff had to be redone.
So my manager got involved. Iwas involved. And then the
production manager was involved.
And so you've got two differentdepartments, three different
levels of people involved. So myemployee was, you know, really
nervous, really scared to tellme about it. And I'm trying to
(03:47):
reassure him like, you know,it's an honest mistake, you
know, you were doing your job,you missed one detail. You know,
it happens, sucks, but ithappens. And then my manager
comes down and just startsscreaming his head off, like,
doesn't ask questions doesn'ttry to understand this. The
whole story just startsscreaming his head off at me, at
(04:10):
my employee, like, just in frontof everyone. We're on a
production floor. There's peopleeverywhere, and he's just
screaming at everyone. My firstinstinct is like, Okay, well,
one that's never good to do thatin front of people. Because now
the entire department can seethis, you know, one individual
basically being singled out. Itwas just a really uncomfortable
(04:33):
situation. And then that's whenthe production manager comes in.
And then those two so him in mymanager get into a screaming,
right. They're yelling at eachother. And then the plant
manager comes down. And hestands there and he just
observes and he's literally justsilent, watching each other
scream at each other. And thenhe walks away. At the end of the
(04:54):
day. Nothing was reallyresolved. Like we still did the
same thing. We We were going todo with the beginning, nothing
changed. It accomplishednothing. And it was just really
uncomfortable for everyone. AndI just remember, like, that was
my introduction to my job, like,this is what I get to deal with
and handle. And I just remembermy employee being like, beat
(05:17):
down, he was really an employee.
And it just really made him feellike crap and not want to, like
bring attention, things like itwas something where if he hadn't
told us about it, it might nothave even been taught. But he
was being honest. And hey, Imissed this. And it's wrong,
like we need to fix it. And sojust that kind of involvement
(05:40):
can make him less willing to dothat again in the future. And so
that was a big thing that reallybothered me. And I remember
going to my manager and justhave straight up telling him
that I lost respect for him asmy manager, because of the way
he treated all of us on thefloor. And he eventually went
down and apologized to myemployees. He never said
anything to me. But it was justone of those situations where,
(06:03):
like, no one wanted to be in theemotions just got the best of
everyone, because between the QAmanager and the production
manager, they were trying to bebetter than the other or be
right. And then when the plantmanager comes down and does
nothing, it's like, okay, where,where do you stand? And why are
you not participating or helpinganything you're just observing?
Aaron Harmon (06:28):
Yeah, that's a crazy story. And I'm guessing
that probably all of theconflicting parties had no real,
obviously, skills andcontrolling those emotions and
making something productive outof it.
Unknown (06:42):
Right. I mean, it was a problem that really could have
been solved by asking a couplequestions and making a decision.
And I think, the anger andthere's previous tension between
the two managers, and thatplayed a big role in it too,
because there was just no momentto stop and discuss. It was just
(07:04):
straight up. Let's just startyelling,
Aaron Harmon (07:06):
Get a wrestling ring. Yeah. Have attr? Do we
train our quality professionalsto navigate these? That is what
this episode is about? Learninghow to navigate emotional
conflict and de escalation. Andto help us with that is Joel
Reinisch. Joel is an AssistantProfessor of Criminal Justice,
former Marine Police Officerdetective and training crisis
(07:28):
and hostage negotiations.
Welcome to Inside Out quality,Joel. Hi. Thank you. So first,
you tell us about yourself. Likehow did you end up you had a
career path in the military? Andthen you got into law
enforcement now education, howthat worked for you.
Joel Reinesch (07:42):
The winding road, I guess, is the best answer for
you. Mitchell, South Dakota,born and raised, my father was a
law enforcement officer for mostof my formative years, you know,
so I was, you know, born andraised on that, and Hill Street
Blues and everything else, youknow, in the 80s, for those old
(08:03):
80s capture nuts in youraudience, so I mean, it's just
something that I always wantedto do, you know, looked up to my
father, um, you know, and justwas something you know, like I
said that that was was always anambition of mine. Something else
that he also was was a Marine,as well, too, or I guess once a
Marine, always a Marine, but hewas, he was a Vietnam, veteran
(08:25):
to tours in Vietnam. So youknow, that was also something
else that I looked up to aswell, too. I like I told you, I
took the long, windy path. Youknow, I graduated from high
school from Mitchell High Schoolin 1995. I guess today they call
them a gap year. But I guess Itook gap years before gap years
were cool. And actually didn'tstarted Dakota Wesleyan until
(08:49):
1997 in the criminal justiceprogram, really enjoyed my
criminal justice classes, not somuch my other classes and to be
completely honest with you kindof spun my wheels for you know,
a couple years here, and thendecided that it was time to, to
grow up and to be completelyhonest with you and move on. And
(09:11):
August of 2001, signed to jointhe Marine Corps, signed up for
the infantry in the MarineCorps. Two weeks later,
September 11 happens, oh, boy,two weeks to the day. Um, and my
mom called me up on the morningof September 11. And inside you
(09:33):
call your recruiter and you tellhim you're not come in and I
will. And I called my recruiterand said, When can I go? You
know, I mean, that kind of wasthe the feeling at that time,
actually, the earliest theycould get me out. I mean, I
wasn't the only guy you know,who called the earliest that
they could get me out was Marchof 2002. Originally I was going
(09:55):
to do the full year in thedelayed entry program and
actually was going to finish wasgoing to graduate college. But
then, you know, that could getme on March 2002. So that's when
I, that's when I went. So I wentto college all the way up until
that point, but then laughedabout March 26 of 2002 for boot
camp in San Diego, graduatedfrom there in June of 2002. And
(10:21):
graduated from the school ofinfantry in the west coast on
September 13. of 2002. And thenwas assigned to Third Battalion,
fourth Marines, which is inTwentynine Palms, California,
which is literally in the middleof the Mojave Desert. There in
California, it's about an houraway from Palm Springs, it's
(10:44):
about two hours away from LasVegas. Um, you know, kind of
right smack dab there in thedesert. I'm deployed with three,
four, I'm in March of 2003.
Actually, we deployed actually,we we left, February 1 2003, is
when we actually got to Kuwaitspent, oh, I don't know, four
(11:04):
weeks, five weeks, maybe sixweeks there in Kuwait and
getting ready for the invasion.
And then it was part of the theinitial invasion into Iraq in
2003. Actually, that the thestatue of Saddam Hussein that
was torn down and in federalsquare there in the middle of
Baghdad that that was us.
Really, yup, I I was a blockaway, when it happened. Had no
(11:27):
idea, the significance of it.
Yeah, I had no clue that, youknow, President Bush is watching
it live on TV and in you know,that it's, it's, it's live back
in the United States had noclue, you know, the head came
off the statue, and they tiedinto the back of a truck, and
(11:49):
they're driving down the street.
And people are, you know,beating it with their, with
their, with their shoes, whichin the in their culture in the
Muslim culture is actually likethe worst, you know, like, the
most degrading thing that youcan do. And those that you're,
you're lower than the dirtbeneath my feet. So when you
when you see people eating itwith their shoes, that's
actually you know, what it'sdepicting, and, yeah, and I'm,
(12:10):
I'm standing there, and I hearthe crowd, you know, the whole
thing, and I see this wholething happen, and, you know, but
I mean, we're still in themiddle of it. So you see it
happening, but you're, you'repaying attention, other things,
and all of a sudden, this headcomes bouncing down the road.
Unknown (12:27):
And had no idea you know, until I got home in June
ish, July ish that year, um, youknow, and one of my buddies just
in passing was like, Hey, didyou did you ever see that? And
I'm like, Yeah, I was there. Howdid you see it? You know, and
then it was it was at thatpoint, but I kind of figured out
that it was actually it was kindof a culturally significant
(12:49):
event. So that was pretty cool.
Wrapped up that deployment, cameback, then redeploy it, again,
essentially the same time framethe next year in 2004. In that
deployment was spent in the allAssad had diva area, but we also
were in Fallujah, for thatinitial invasion into Fallujah
in 2004. After they hadkidnapped and killed and
(13:12):
murdered those United States,contractors on the streets of
Felicia, we went in for thatpretty significant chunk of our
deployment online for that womanas well too, and then came back,
got married to my wife, we'restill married today have two
kids, our son coy just turned 13years old. Our daughter Emma has
10 going on 20. And thenactually got out of the Marine
(13:35):
Corps in actually December 25 of2005 is actually when I finally
separated from the Marine Corpsout on terminal leave and stuff
like that. Came back to DakotaWesleyan University thought that
maybe I didn't want to be a cop.
I thought that maybe I wanted tobe like an athletic director,
work in sports in some way,shape, or form. That didn't take
(13:57):
long probably about a yearrealize that law enforcement
really is where my love was, ithad always been there. I got
hired with the Mitchell PoliceDepartment in May of 2007. I
spent about the first year and ahalf as a patrol officer about
the next five as a detective andmy last five as a patrol
sergeant and finished out myundergrad and completed my
(14:21):
Masters while I was doing that,knowing that eventually I wanted
to come teach at the higher edlevel I I've done some adjunct
teaching here at Dakota Wesleyanthroughout that time and did a
lot of teaching and training atthe police department. During
Mitchell. It was something Ireally liked to do. You know, so
finish on my master's knowingthat that was kind of wanting
that to be my post retirementgig. But they they offered me a
(14:43):
spot in 2018 Here in thecriminal justice department DW
that I just couldn't turn down.
So I've been here since August2018 and just have have loved
every minute of it since
Aaron Harmon (14:54):
it had been a big transition going from Mitchell,
South Dakota to California andSan Diego and Then overtake
Kuwait and Iraq. And you know,the
Unknown (15:03):
the firt. The first time I ever flew on a plane was
the bootcamp to San Diego. Youknow, so that that was the first
time I'd ever flown biggest cityI'd probably been to was
Minneapolis, three differenttimes, you know, I mean, just
really didn't really didn't getout of Mitchell or this this
area, much, you know, traveledthroughout the area quite a bit,
(15:26):
just had never gone anywherebigger than that. So definitely
a culture shock. And I mean forit, you know, for anybody who
joined the Marines, man, there'snothing like that first week of
Marine Corps boot camp anyway.
It doesn't matter how I'veexperienced I'm a world
traveler, you are at that point,you're all the same level of
scum at that point. You know,so, but yeah, I mean,
(15:48):
definitely. And I, you know,man, I wouldn't, I wouldn't give
up those years for anything.
Loved the Marine Corps, inretrospect, loved my experiences
in Iraq, obviously, when you'rethere, you would like to be home
and vice versa, but certainlyshaped who I am today, for
(16:08):
better or worse. But you know, Ithink definitely for the better.
But my goal in joining theMarines was, like I said, I
mean, it was it was time to hitthe reset button. And it was
time to grow up. And itcertainly did that. So I am
eternally grateful for theMarine Corps. And, you know, the
things that it taught me and theexperiences that it gave me,
certainly has made me I thinkthe person that I am today, gave
(16:32):
me some direction, certainlygave me life experiences and
life skills that I've drawn backon a number of different times,
personally, professionally,certainly, as a law enforcement
officer on you know, and evenyou know, with my students here
at Dakota Wesleyan just tryingto pass on life experiences and
things like that to them aswell, too. So eternally grateful
for what the Marine Corps hasgiven me,
Aaron Harmon (16:53):
that sounds like a great experience. And the
quality assurance professionalside, we typically have a
different path between going tocollege, finding out that
science is really fun. Andgetting wrapped up in that and
then eventually working our wayinto a company where we
transitioned into the qualityassurance world, we have a lot
of jokes about being in QA, oneof them is, when you're in QA,
(17:18):
you sit alone at the lunchtable. I had a co worker, really
good friend, and he would saysomething along the lines of
once you're in QA, your friends,I'll go away, something like
that. But we end up in a lot ofconflict. And unfortunately,
typical college programstraining you to get into science
(17:39):
and quality assurance, do nottouch and how to manage navigate
conflict, especially when youhave tensions rising, because
things are changing in theworkplace, etc. But law
enforcement and the military,you probably see all kinds of
conflict. Absolutely. Probablyone of the big ones you would
see I'm assuming in as a patrolofficer, is when you get a I get
(18:02):
domestic disturbance. How do youapproach those situations when
you have that kind of conflictoccurring?
Unknown (18:10):
When you talk about like going to domestics, you
know, and those sorts of things.
I mean, those are always hairyanyway, because they're so
emotionally charged. Andsometimes you have victims that
don't want to be victims andtrying to cover for offenders or
offenders who you know, I'm notgoing to jail and the fight is
on for a while. I don't know ifthe statistics still hold true
(18:33):
today. But you talk aboutdomestics, domestics used to be
the number one cop killer of lawenforcement officers is
responding to domestic assaultswas the most dangerous call that
you could go to, because theyare so emotionally charged.
Maybe using domestics as anexample or just anything. The
calmest had always prevails. Andthat's something that that I
(18:54):
tell my kids here at Wesleyan, Itell them that all the time,
people are calling you. Becausesomething has gone bad in those
situations. In many instances,you will be involved in the
worst day people have ever hadin their life. And they're,
they're calling you to try torestore some order to it. And if
you don't have your head aboutyou, you can't do that. You're
(19:16):
actually only going to make thesituation worse. The number one
rule of thumb for anything whenyou're talking about crisis
negotiations, hostagenegotiations, any of those
things or just even dealing withstressful situations is you are
paid to be the calmest headthere. So whatever you need to
(19:36):
do to train yourself, or remindyourself to that. That's like
rule number one, in any of thesetypes of instances for sure.
Aaron Harmon (19:47):
That's got to be a challenging thing to do. I've
caught myself getting wrapped upwhere I don't know if it's like
trying to protect my ego, orwhat it is but wanting to like
as the person gets tense to likeBrian To the challenge and meet
them there.
Unknown (20:01):
Yes. And that that was something and I'm very open with
my kids about this is that you,you, you have to check your ego
at the door, even what you dowith your quality, you know, and
things like that. And what youknow I do as a law enforcement
officer or did as a lawenforcement officer or as a
Marine, definitely more in thelaw enforcement world is you
(20:23):
have to check your ego at thedoor. You can't get into that,
that back and forth. And thosethings, and there's a lot of
times where you just need to getit and just swallow hard and
move on. And I'm very open andhonest with my kids that
especially early on in my lawenforcement career, that's
something that I reallystruggled with, was being able
(20:43):
to swallow hard, and maybeturning the other cheek. And if
somebody challenged you to notchallenge them back. That's
definitely something that I hadto learn I had to learn it the
hard way. Is that sometimes tobe that that calmer head, like I
said, you just need to swallowhard, and just move on. But
definitely, you know, whenyou're talking about that
(21:04):
conflict and conflict resolutionand things like that, you got to
let the small stuff go, youcan't have the petty comments,
and you can't let other people'spetty comments get to you. And
you know, like you talk aboutegos in trying to match them and
things like that, like that wasthe one thing that was hardest
for me to do that once I kind oflearned to manage that a little
bit. And I think that somepeople would even be like,
(21:26):
really, you'd like you learn tomanage that, like I would hate
to have seen you before. It wasonce you learn to kind of manage
that. Definitely the the muchmore, much more productive you
are in terms of dealing withthose situations of conflict
resolution or just conflict ingeneral,
Aaron Harmon (21:44):
if you've got a scenario where you've got two
people yelling, and you can tellthat the tensions are there.
You've got the calm part downthere next steps you could do to
help bring things back.
Unknown (21:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
People want to be heard. Some ofmy additional training that I've
done when I was when I was a lawenforcement officer was a crisis
negotiator as a hostagenegotiator, critical incident
stress, debriefing teams, love,you know, those those things as
well too. But also de escalationtechniques with like mentally
(22:17):
ill individuals and things likethat, which is a huge push in
law enforcement right now. Andthat was one of the things that
I was involved in when I wasgetting out. And one of the
things that you learned, thatthey teach you is is that people
want to be listened to, you haveto actually actively listen to
people and parroting back tothem, like parrot like like
(22:39):
parakeet like a bird. Theyregurgitate everything that you
say to them, you know, that'swhat you need to do is you need
to pare it back to people justbe like, okay, hey, it sounds
like what you're telling me isthis, that's kind of a classic
standby line, you know, that youuse with people when you're
trying to de escalate. And itshows them that you're actively
listening to them. activelylistening to people is a huge
(23:01):
part of that. And to show themhow you're doing that is to say,
Okay, I hear what you're saying,it sounds like you're telling me
this, in my reading, you'recorrectly and actually doing
that to people, and showing themthat actively listening, and,
you know, verbally, you know,regurgitating back to them what
they're saying, and paraphrasingit, in your own words actually
does a lot in initially deescalating, whatever you've got
(23:26):
going on. Now, obviously, youtalk about people yelling back
and forth at each other. If youget somebody who's
preconditioned to yell, andthat's just going to be, that's
just going to be how it is. Andthat's how it is okay. But you
know, nine times out of 10 justdoing that act of listening and
showing people that you'reactively listening to them,
makes great strides and startingto de escalate any of those
(23:48):
situations.
Aaron Harmon (23:51):
That's, that's not the approach I've taken in the
past. And I can tell you that
Unknown (23:55):
well, and it's not always the approach that I took,
you know, in even, even today,sometimes it's not always the
approach. I mean, that, thatdefinitely, for me, that was the
one thing that that I learned,the better you can get it that
the more successful you are thatthe more easily in the more
quickly, you're going to be ableto de escalate any situation,
(24:20):
hopefully with somebody who'sthinking rationally. Now, you're
talking about somebody who'ssuffering from a mental health
crisis, you know, or somethinglike that. Obviously, that
throws a whole different wrenchinto the equation, right? Like
if you have somebody who's notthinking rationally, it doesn't
matter what you do. If you can'tbring them back to center, or
(24:40):
some people, it's just notpossible to bring them back to
center. But if you have rationalthinking people, that is going
to work for you more often thanit's not just actively listening
and showing them that you'reactively listening and giving
them the opportunity to eventalk first. Again, putting your
ego aside. Give them theopportunity to talk first
Aaron Harmon (25:01):
was talking to a friend of mine that worked in QA
for quite a while. And I askedher, have you ever found
yourself with this conflicthappening in the workplace, and
she told me about an examplewhere an employee had done
something wrong, came up to herand said, Hey, I did something
wrong, they went and talk to thenext person up the chain. And
that person began arguing withanother manager, and they got
(25:25):
into a full on shouting match ateach other, where everyone was
watching them shout. And itturned into this awkward
embarrassing moment in theworkplace. And the unfortunate
thing is, it sends a messagethat if you do something wrong,
you're going to create a wholebunch of conflict, which is a
terrible message to have, right?
Like you want people to be openand transparent about these
(25:46):
things. And so I'm trying tolike get my head like if I was
in that situation, so there theyare, I got these two people now
yelling, does there any likeadvantage to try to separate out
the crowd the like, any tacticsor techniques, or
Unknown (26:02):
if you can, good luck.
Um, this is something that wasnot popular in the Marine Corps,
but something that was verypopular, you know, in law
enforcement from like, asupervisory perspective is you
you praise in public and you youcriticize in private, in the
Marine Corps, getting your buttchewed in, in public was, you
know, that was the name of thegame. We don't care about your
(26:23):
feelings. Drill. Instructorsdon't care about your feelings,
that salty, Gunny doesn't careabout the feelings of that fear,
or that lance corporal in thatworld, that doesn't really
matter. But certainly in the lawenforcement world, that was
something you praise in publicand you you criticize in
private. So I mean, if there'sany way that you can make that
(26:44):
happen, that you know, like theexample that you're throwing out
there, you're you're past that,right? Like that. That was that
like, that's, that's already notgonna happen. It already hasn't
not happened. Yet, at that pointis a third party, you know, and
I mean, that that's what copsdo, right? They get called to
(27:06):
these situations where it'salready gone to hell in a
handbasket. And now you're beingasked to come in there and step
in. Now, the thing that lawenforcement officers have to
their advantage is they wear auniform, and with that uniform
comes in air of authority. Sopeople already know that, okay,
hey, the cops are here, the copcar just pulled up. And this
(27:27):
uniformed police officerswalking over this gun and badge
and everything else. Typically,that itself will help to
deescalate a situation, at leastin South Dakota, you know, most
of the time it does. I mean, Ican't talk about Chicago
anywhere else. If you don't havethat benefit. Yeah, man, I mean,
just just as the third party, ata minimum, you can walk in there
(27:48):
and go, Hey, let's take thisbehind closed doors, and then go
in there and try to mediate it.
But who knows if that's going towork? Good. Good luck. It at
least at the end of the day, youcan say that you tried. But even
in that situation, if you'regoing to come in as the third
party? Yeah, you definitely gotto be the calmest head. No, not
pointing fingers, don't yell topeople who are already yelling
(28:11):
at each other. You just lean inand go, Hey, let's go do this
behind closed doors, you got alot of people paying attention
to you here, let's go behindclosed doors, or can we do this
in a half hour, just get that,get that separation, and that
opportunity for people to stepback and take a breath. Most
people once you get them out ofthe moment, if they have acted
(28:32):
irrationally, they understandthat they've acted irrationally,
once you get them out of themoment. So I mean, anything that
you can do to kind of break thecycle of what's happening there.
You're not going to be wrong fordoing so that isn't gonna make a
difference? Well, it's going todepend, it's going to depend on
the people and, and you know,whether or not you actually have
(28:53):
any authority, either. When I
Aaron Harmon (28:55):
like that, when you said praise in public and
criticize in private, then intomedicine is the best medicine.
So if you get if you know,you're gonna have something that
could be something that createssome emotional conflict, saying,
hey, I want to talk to you, butlet's go back to his other space
where there's no one else orsomething. Yeah, absolutely. So
that you don't end up havingsomething happened, right, where
everyone else is hanging out?
Unknown (29:16):
Yep. Absolutely. And I mean, especially when you're
talking about your setting, likeyou're probably dealing with
people who are professionals,right. I mean, there are people
who are working their career,likely have some level of
education or have some sort ofequity built into their career
or in their company. They don'twant to be treated like a lance
(29:38):
corporal. You know, they, theydon't want to be treated like a
like a PFC. Reinisch Yeah, youyou you should, if that's your
job, to call people, quote,unquote, to the man on those
things. You should have the wordwith all around you to to
understand that, hey, these areprofessionals that I'm dealing
with and I can't treat them likethey're some 18 year old
(29:59):
college. Do I need to I need totreat them with with some level
of professionalism here, itdoesn't mean that you can't
correct them. But certainly theway that you would work with
them or treat them or deal withthem certainly would be
different. Like I said, ifyou're a lance corporal in the
Marine Corps, what I have found,certainly as a supervisor, as a
law enforcement officer, youknow, it's my job, if somebody
(30:22):
comes to make a complaintagainst one of my officers, it's
my job to deal with my officerin that situation, whether
they've done something right, orwhether they've done something
wrong. Or maybe they didsomething, right, that maybe had
you handled it this way, insteadof doing it this way, you know,
maybe it would have been better.
But yeah, in private, behindclosed doors professionally, and
(30:44):
don't beat around the bush, ifyou're somebody who's got to
correct somebody, don't dancearound it. Um, I drill into my
kids heads empathy, from a lawenforcement perspective, you're
dealing with somebody on acriminal matter, you know, or
anything else, you you shouldtreat them how you would want to
be treated. Now, you can't dothat 10 times out of 10. But
(31:06):
certainly eight times or ninetimes out of 10, you can write
to try to have that empathy inthere. Well, same deal. If you
were the subordinate, and yougot called into your supervisors
office, do you? Do you want meto beat around the bush? Or do
you just want me to rip thebandage off. And I found that
that ripping the bandage off,but doing so as as
professionally as possible isdefinitely the best policy.
Aaron Harmon (31:30):
So got the scenario where I observe
somebody doing something that Iknow, is not where we need to be
from a quality perspective forsome reason. First of all,
making sure there's no onearound or I can like, kind of
isolate them a little bit. Becalm, say, Hey, I observe this,
which doesn't line up with ourprocedure. That's an example. So
(31:53):
I'm calling it out, and thengiving them a chance to talk.
And then listen to them.
Unknown (31:58):
Yep. Or even depending on the situation. One example
that I can give you is, I had anofficer who pulled the lady
over, pulls her over failed tostop at a stop sign is what it
was. I've seen the in carcameras clearly didn't stop for
the stop sign. It's a good stop,pulls her over,
(32:21):
goes and walks up to the car.
Hey, this is who I am. This isthe reason I pulled you over
isn't a reason why you didn'tstop. You know what? No, I
actually I thought I did. Okay,fair enough. You have a driver's
license registration proof ofinsurance? Yep, I do. Here you
go, goes back to his car, writesher an actual citation for
failed to stop at a stop sign,which certainly is within his
right to do. Writer a citation,goes back up to the car, gives
(32:46):
her back on information andsays, hey, here you go. Here's
your driver's license, yourregistration, your proof of
insurance. I've issued you acitation today for failure stop
at a stop sign. You have twooptions, either pay the fine by
this date, or if you wish tocontest this ticket. This is
your court date, you know, to tocome to court to do that. I need
you to sign that the sign theticket. And she's like, I'm not
(33:09):
signing it. And he was put yougot to? And she goes, No, I
don't. And he's like, Yeah, youdo. And you know, and now all of
a sudden, you're you're intothis back and forth of Yes, er,
no, I'm not. Yes, you're no, I'mnot. And he finally says, look,
like if you don't sign this, I'mtaking you to jail, you know,
and I'm paraphrasing here, buthe was very professional. But
(33:30):
he's like, Hey, if you don'tsign it, I'm taking you to jail.
And she's like, whoa, what?
Third for not stopping at a stopsign? You're telling me that
you're going to take me to jailnow? Are you? Are you kidding
me. And she ends up signing theticket, you know, essentially
under protest. And then ofcourse, comes down to the police
department to file a complaint.
So I call the officer and Idownload the body camera and
(33:53):
watch the whole thing. And therewas nothing that he did. That
was outside of the scope ofpolicy. He wasn't even wrong and
telling her that if she didn'tsign the ticket, that she would
have to go to jail. He's noteven wrong and telling her that
that's actually what happensbecause what you're signing is
not an admission of guilt. It'ssigning that you agree that I'm
(34:15):
either going to pay the fine bythis date, or I'm going to come
to court and I'm going tocontest this ticket. It's
essentially a promise to appearsall your signing. She didn't see
it that way. She saw it as holycrap, I'm going to jail because
I ran a stop sign that I don'teven think I did. So I hear her
out. And I just explained to herI say hey, actually, you know
(34:38):
what signing the ticket actuallydoes. It's it's a promise to
appear. You're either promisingto appear or you're saying
you're going to you're going todo this and she goes well, Jesus
had had I known that. I justwould have signed the damn
ticket right away. And I'm like,Yep, I get it. And I will talk
to our officer about that. And Italked to our officer and the
first thing I said said was Igo, Hey, man, you did nothing
(35:00):
wrong. Okay, so like,immediately I've already de
escalated anything that I'mgoing to have with this, right?
And I'm like, Hey, man, just soyou know, you've done nothing
wrong. That being said, Did youconsider this? And he's like,
You know what? I guess I thoughtI explained that to her. But
you're right, I guess I guess Ididn't. You can get into a
(35:20):
situation, especially as asupervisor, or as a law
enforcement officer, as aprofessional, that you know,
your job so well, that you knowwhat it means to sign the
citation. You just assume thatshe does as well, too. And I
think that that's what happenedwith this. He's like, geez, you
know, I guess I didn't eventhink to explain all that to
her. You know, I just assumed,you know, where I've done this
(35:42):
100 times, um, you know, I justthought that it was common. And
I'm like, Yeah, well, okay. Butyou know, now next time, you
know, in the future, he's like,Yep, totally get it. Okay. So
I've just killed two birds withone stone, I've effectively
supervised my officer to belike, hey, in the future, you
might want to keep this in mind.
And I've also appeased ourcitizenry as well, too. He
(36:06):
talked to his officer, I won,okay, like I want on this. That
officer got talked to that, youknow, one day, she still got her
ticket, she still had to payyour fine. You know, and, and
no, no, no harm, no foul withthe officer. And plus, he
learned better for the next timearound. It wasn't that he was
unprofessional. He wasprofessional with her. He didn't
(36:29):
like I said, he did nothingwrong via the policy. But I gave
him an opportunity to tell hisside. And once he told the side,
I said, Okay, fair enough. Didyou consider this? You know
what, no, I didn't. Well, then Ialso got my part out as well,
too. So it was a learningexperience for everybody. Had I
brought him into my office andjust been like, dude, what, why
(36:50):
don't you just tell her rightaway? You know, that if you if
you sign this, this is what thismeans? Why didn't you tell her
that? You know, had I done that?
I'm setting myself up, I'mactually escalating the
situation. But I gave him anopportunity to tell his side of
the story. And then I'm like,okay, consider this side of it.
He's like, Yep, I totally getit. I accomplish the same goal.
I just did it around about wayto get there that that left,
(37:14):
everybody feeling good. Most ofthe time, all people want to
hear is that you're sorry,whether you're right or whether
you're wrong. People just wantto hear the words, I'm sorry,
come out of your mouth. Andthat's something that I learned,
the longer that I was in lawenforcement had to have to deal
with those types of things. It'snot I'm sorry, that I'm
apologizing to you that I'vedone something wrong. And even
(37:35):
just be? Well, I'm sorry thatyou know that you had such a
negative experience with ustoday. They even hear that last
part, they heard the front part.
And that's all that man. It'sreally word games, while still
being sincere. Like, I'mcertainly not saying, you know,
pull the wool over people's eyesor anything like that. I'm
certainly or mislead them. I'mabsolutely not saying that.
That's last thing you want todo. That understanding what
(37:58):
people want to hear. And givingit to them? How you would want
it yourself are two veryimportant ways to do that.
Aaron Harmon (38:07):
And it sounds like that's the empathy part.
Unknown (38:09):
It is. Yeah, it is.
Yeah. In my, my kids, like,every time I say empathy, like
they just giggle, you know,like, they know, what's my word?
The E word, you know, is what itis. So yeah, my my kids, we
giggle about it all the time.
But I mean, seriously, my wifewould roll her eyes, you'd be
like empathy. And Joel really,but I mean, really, I mean,
(38:33):
that's, that's the key to somany different things, is just
trying to bring yourself totheir level, and relate to them,
and treat them how you thinkthat they probably want to be
treated, or how you would liketo be treated. That is such a
huge part, certainly in lawenforcement, talking about de
escalation techniques, and thosesorts of things, too. I mean, it
(38:53):
just is. It's so important. Andit's different than sympathy.
There's a difference betweensympathy and empathy. Some
people want to be felt sorry forwhich is sympathy. But other
people find that patronizing.
But nobody, nobody finds empathyas being patronizing. Nobody
sees it that way, or at leastnot rational thinking people. So
there's definitely a differencebetween sympathy and empathy.
But if you if you can keep thatempathy in the forefront of your
(39:17):
mind, that's going to get youout of more of these situations
are going to is going to makethem successful. More times than
unsuccessful. captured here
Aaron Harmon (39:27):
is first of all prevention. So you got the
privacy. You got the Hey, no,tell me what's going on.
Unknown (39:34):
Perspective. Sure. Tell me what you're thinking. Yeah.
Aaron Harmon (39:38):
And then the listening, the parroting so you
show that you're listening? Yep.
And then doing that in a waythat shows empathy? Absolutely.
I feel like it'd be pretty hardto still be upset with someone
that was doing that. Well.
Unknown (39:50):
It would be Yeah, it would be like I said, Do you
have somebody who's not thinkingrationally? Look, man, it
doesn't matter what you're goingto do. Right? If they're not,
they're not thinking rationally.
But yes, rational thinkingpeople, hopefully, they may not
agree with you. But hopefullythey at least understand you and
where you're coming from. Wedon't have to agree at the end
(40:11):
of the day, but you still got torespect it. And certainly if I'm
your supervisor, you betterrespect it. I also need to act
in a way that should Garner thatrespect as well to
Aaron Harmon (40:24):
then at the end, if necessary, you can throw in
Unknown (40:27):
I'm sorry. Yeah. In some way, shape or form. Yeah.
Aaron Harmon (40:32):
And then you add a better place. Absolutely. Yeah,
absolutely. Well, thank you,Joel.
Unknown (40:39):
This is really good.
Yeah, absolutely.
Aaron Harmon (40:42):
Thank you for listening. This is the end of
season two. I look forward tobringing you season three. After
more than 21 years of service atthe NASA OIG and 30 years in law
enforcement Special Agent wayKrieger died on August 21 2020.
Following a brief illness.
Wade's work at the NASA OIGKennedy Space Center in Florida
included handling numeroushighly successful white collar
(41:02):
criminal and civilinvestigations to include
product substitution, theft oftrade secrets, Grant fraud,
lease fraud, conflicts ofinterest, conspiracy,
embezzlement, theft, and variousother procurement related
matters. Wade was a highlyskilled marksman and firearms
instructor. He served as regularguest instructor at the Federal
Law Enforcement Training Centersproduct substitution courses
(41:24):
since 2008 and was a 2018graduate of the FBI National
Academy class 276. Prior tojoining NASA OIG Wade was a
special agent with the Air ForceOffice of Special Investigations
AF OSI, which he joined in 1989after graduating from Memphis
State University and receiving aUS Air Force commission via Air
Force ROTC. while on active dutyWade served tours in Arkansas,
(41:47):
Guam, Panama and Florida. Hecommanded the Panama Jack Task
Force, a unique tri servicecounter smuggling unit based in
the Republic of Panama from 1993to 1995. He also served as
commander of afosr detachmentfor 19 Tyndale Air Force Base,
Florida from 1995 to 1998. In1999, way transition from active
(42:07):
duty and became a reserve AF OSIofficer to join NASA OIG shortly
after, Wade was a graduate ofthe US Air Force Command and
Staff College and retired fromthe Air Force Reserve in 2010.
As Lieutenant Colonel, way tosurvive by its wife, Brenda, his
daughter, Sidney and two sons,Joseph and Aaron. Thank you,
Wade for helping me start thispodcast. And all you done for
(42:28):
our country. We hope you enjoyedthis episode. This is brought to
you thanks for South Dakotabiotech Association. If you have
a story you'd like us to exploreand share, let us know by
visiting www. SD bio.org. Also,if you live in the Sioux Falls
area, check out QUIBIT a localQuality Assurance Professionals
Network. You can find out moreabout QUIBIT by clicking on the
(42:51):
link on our website too. Thanksfor listening
Hi, I'm Aaron Harman and this is inside out
(00:02):
quality, a podcast about reallife events and experiences
shared by our guests of whenthings have gone wrong, and how
we can learn from them to buildbetter products, companies and
improve lives through aneffective quality system.
January 8 2020, I sat in my carwith Diane Cox in the parking
(00:23):
lot of the medical devicesupplier in the Minneapolis
area. We had just completed anaudit. a month earlier I reached
out to NASA when I saw the pressrelease for the SAP a supplier
investigation. I was sointrigued that I wanted to know
who performed the investigationto uncover the fraud. They
connected me to Wade, the planwas to ask way to present a clip
at a local quality ProfessionalsNetwork we have in Sioux Falls,
South Dakota. Well, we talkedall I could think of is how
(00:46):
amazing it was. I could talkwith someone who helped uncover
something plaguing such a largeasset like NASA, it seems short
sighted to have way present,just equip it and then move on.
I want to talk more than just asingle presentation. I wanted
the story to be captured andpreserved. And so a podcast was
a solution. On the phone Ilistened to wade talked about
pivot at the end mentioned thepodcast idea. Fast forward to
(01:08):
August 2020. I have Diane onboard for the podcast to be a co
host. We met with Nate pepleabout the idea and our need for
audio support. Joanie extraSouth Dakota biotech agreed to
help support it financially. AndBarbara was there to help us
with the graphics. We knew wewanted to iron out any kinks
before recording Wade So myfriend Doug Moffat and his wife
Robin agreed to be our firstguest. Next, we record wade in
(01:30):
October 2020. The episode endedand launched in December,
weighed in I had talked enoughat that point to know there must
be more we should record. Iasked if he knew of any other
good lessons from NASA he couldshare and we agreed to talk
again. The episode launchedSeason One ended with 10
episodes and plans for seasontwo, we're underway. We texted a
few more times. And then inJuly, I had an idea for what
(01:51):
weighed my next episode could beI texted away, and he responded
he was second need some time torecover and then we could talk.
Five days later he texted againsaying it was taking him longer
to recover than expected. And Itold him not to worry we had a
few months easily before we needto record September 29 2021. I'm
having coffee with Jenny andplanning the next episodes for
(02:12):
season two. I want to record anepisode on navigating emotions
and de escalation of conflict.
And I remember Wade, I textedhim to check in but the text
bounce back I sent another whichfailed to that I read the
previous texts we had his searchjust named by Google. It took a
little more time to confirm butthe world had lost way Krieger
This was later confirmed by theOffice of Inspector General.
(02:32):
While thinking of the topic atthe coffee shop, I was now
confronted with emotions andchange. I was sad for the loss
of weight, and I began tearingup over coffee. While sitting
there with Jenny. We are allhumans full of emotions, ideas,
hopes, dreams and fears. qualityprofessionals are deployed in
the workplace to help bringchange. But what happens when
that change rouses emotions andconflict? So what does emotional
(02:54):
conflict look like? Sharing anexample with me is a friend
Bree.
Bree Cox (03:01):
I was fairly new in my job. And so I was a supervisor.
And I was still like, probablynot even a month in. So I'm
still learning my job, let alonemy employees jobs like I I had
didn't know what they weredoing. My employee made an
honest mistake. Unfortunately,it caused a large amount of what
(03:26):
we would call rework, productwas bad stuff had to be redone.
So my manager got involved. Iwas involved. And then the
production manager was involved.
And so you've got two differentdepartments, three different
levels of people involved. So myemployee was, you know, really
nervous, really scared to tellme about it. And I'm trying to
(03:47):
reassure him like, you know,it's an honest mistake, you
know, you were doing your job,you missed one detail. You know,
it happens, sucks, but ithappens. And then my manager
comes down and just startsscreaming his head off, like,
doesn't ask questions doesn'ttry to understand this. The
whole story just startsscreaming his head off at me, at
(04:10):
my employee, like, just in frontof everyone. We're on a
production floor. There's peopleeverywhere, and he's just
screaming at everyone. My firstinstinct is like, Okay, well,
one that's never good to do thatin front of people. Because now
the entire department can seethis, you know, one individual
basically being singled out. Itwas just a really uncomfortable
(04:33):
situation. And then that's whenthe production manager comes in.
And then those two so him in mymanager get into a screaming,
right. They're yelling at eachother. And then the plant
manager comes down. And hestands there and he just
observes and he's literally justsilent, watching each other
scream at each other. And thenhe walks away. At the end of the
(04:54):
day. Nothing was reallyresolved. Like we still did the
same thing. We We were going todo with the beginning, nothing
changed. It accomplishednothing. And it was just really
uncomfortable for everyone. AndI just remember, like, that was
my introduction to my job, like,this is what I get to deal with
and handle. And I just remembermy employee being like, beat
(05:17):
down, he was really an employee.
And it just really made him feellike crap and not want to, like
bring attention, things like itwas something where if he hadn't
told us about it, it might nothave even been taught. But he
was being honest. And hey, Imissed this. And it's wrong,
like we need to fix it. And sojust that kind of involvement
(05:40):
can make him less willing to dothat again in the future. And so
that was a big thing that reallybothered me. And I remember
going to my manager and justhave straight up telling him
that I lost respect for him asmy manager, because of the way
he treated all of us on thefloor. And he eventually went
down and apologized to myemployees. He never said
anything to me. But it was justone of those situations where,
(06:03):
like, no one wanted to be in theemotions just got the best of
everyone, because between the QAmanager and the production
manager, they were trying to bebetter than the other or be
right. And then when the plantmanager comes down and does
nothing, it's like, okay, where,where do you stand? And why are
you not participating or helpinganything you're just observing?
Aaron Harmon (06:28):
Yeah, that's a crazy story. And I'm guessing
that probably all of theconflicting parties had no real,
obviously, skills andcontrolling those emotions and
making something productive outof it.
Unknown (06:42):
Right. I mean, it was a problem that really could have
been solved by asking a couplequestions and making a decision.
And I think, the anger andthere's previous tension between
the two managers, and thatplayed a big role in it too,
because there was just no momentto stop and discuss. It was just
(07:04):
straight up. Let's just startyelling,
Aaron Harmon (07:06):
Get a wrestling ring. Yeah. Have attr? Do we
train our quality professionalsto navigate these? That is what
this episode is about? Learninghow to navigate emotional
conflict and de escalation. Andto help us with that is Joel
Reinisch. Joel is an AssistantProfessor of Criminal Justice,
former Marine Police Officerdetective and training crisis
(07:28):
and hostage negotiations.
Welcome to Inside Out quality,Joel. Hi. Thank you. So first,
you tell us about yourself. Likehow did you end up you had a
career path in the military? Andthen you got into law
enforcement now education, howthat worked for you.
Joel Reinesch (07:42):
The winding road, I guess, is the best answer for
you. Mitchell, South Dakota,born and raised, my father was a
law enforcement officer for mostof my formative years, you know,
so I was, you know, born andraised on that, and Hill Street
Blues and everything else, youknow, in the 80s, for those old
(08:03):
80s capture nuts in youraudience, so I mean, it's just
something that I always wantedto do, you know, looked up to my
father, um, you know, and justwas something you know, like I
said that that was was always anambition of mine. Something else
that he also was was a Marine,as well, too, or I guess once a
Marine, always a Marine, but hewas, he was a Vietnam, veteran
(08:25):
to tours in Vietnam. So youknow, that was also something
else that I looked up to aswell, too. I like I told you, I
took the long, windy path. Youknow, I graduated from high
school from Mitchell High Schoolin 1995. I guess today they call
them a gap year. But I guess Itook gap years before gap years
were cool. And actually didn'tstarted Dakota Wesleyan until
(08:49):
1997 in the criminal justiceprogram, really enjoyed my
criminal justice classes, not somuch my other classes and to be
completely honest with you kindof spun my wheels for you know,
a couple years here, and thendecided that it was time to, to
grow up and to be completelyhonest with you and move on. And
(09:11):
August of 2001, signed to jointhe Marine Corps, signed up for
the infantry in the MarineCorps. Two weeks later,
September 11 happens, oh, boy,two weeks to the day. Um, and my
mom called me up on the morningof September 11. And inside you
(09:33):
call your recruiter and you tellhim you're not come in and I
will. And I called my recruiterand said, When can I go? You
know, I mean, that kind of wasthe the feeling at that time,
actually, the earliest theycould get me out. I mean, I
wasn't the only guy you know,who called the earliest that
they could get me out was Marchof 2002. Originally I was going
(09:55):
to do the full year in thedelayed entry program and
actually was going to finish wasgoing to graduate college. But
then, you know, that could getme on March 2002. So that's when
I, that's when I went. So I wentto college all the way up until
that point, but then laughedabout March 26 of 2002 for boot
camp in San Diego, graduatedfrom there in June of 2002. And
(10:21):
graduated from the school ofinfantry in the west coast on
September 13. of 2002. And thenwas assigned to Third Battalion,
fourth Marines, which is inTwentynine Palms, California,
which is literally in the middleof the Mojave Desert. There in
California, it's about an houraway from Palm Springs, it's
(10:44):
about two hours away from LasVegas. Um, you know, kind of
right smack dab there in thedesert. I'm deployed with three,
four, I'm in March of 2003.
Actually, we deployed actually,we we left, February 1 2003, is
when we actually got to Kuwaitspent, oh, I don't know, four
(11:04):
weeks, five weeks, maybe sixweeks there in Kuwait and
getting ready for the invasion.
And then it was part of the theinitial invasion into Iraq in
2003. Actually, that the thestatue of Saddam Hussein that
was torn down and in federalsquare there in the middle of
Baghdad that that was us.
Really, yup, I I was a blockaway, when it happened. Had no
(11:27):
idea, the significance of it.
Yeah, I had no clue that, youknow, President Bush is watching
it live on TV and in you know,that it's, it's, it's live back
in the United States had noclue, you know, the head came
off the statue, and they tiedinto the back of a truck, and
(11:49):
they're driving down the street.
And people are, you know,beating it with their, with
their, with their shoes, whichin the in their culture in the
Muslim culture is actually likethe worst, you know, like, the
most degrading thing that youcan do. And those that you're,
you're lower than the dirtbeneath my feet. So when you
when you see people eating itwith their shoes, that's
actually you know, what it'sdepicting, and, yeah, and I'm,
(12:10):
I'm standing there, and I hearthe crowd, you know, the whole
thing, and I see this wholething happen, and, you know, but
I mean, we're still in themiddle of it. So you see it
happening, but you're, you'repaying attention, other things,
and all of a sudden, this headcomes bouncing down the road.
Unknown (12:27):
And had no idea you know, until I got home in June
ish, July ish that year, um, youknow, and one of my buddies just
in passing was like, Hey, didyou did you ever see that? And
I'm like, Yeah, I was there. Howdid you see it? You know, and
then it was it was at thatpoint, but I kind of figured out
that it was actually it was kindof a culturally significant
(12:49):
event. So that was pretty cool.
Wrapped up that deployment, cameback, then redeploy it, again,
essentially the same time framethe next year in 2004. In that
deployment was spent in the allAssad had diva area, but we also
were in Fallujah, for thatinitial invasion into Fallujah
in 2004. After they hadkidnapped and killed and
(13:12):
murdered those United States,contractors on the streets of
Felicia, we went in for thatpretty significant chunk of our
deployment online for that womanas well too, and then came back,
got married to my wife, we'restill married today have two
kids, our son coy just turned 13years old. Our daughter Emma has
10 going on 20. And thenactually got out of the Marine
(13:35):
Corps in actually December 25 of2005 is actually when I finally
separated from the Marine Corpsout on terminal leave and stuff
like that. Came back to DakotaWesleyan University thought that
maybe I didn't want to be a cop.
I thought that maybe I wanted tobe like an athletic director,
work in sports in some way,shape, or form. That didn't take
(13:57):
long probably about a yearrealize that law enforcement
really is where my love was, ithad always been there. I got
hired with the Mitchell PoliceDepartment in May of 2007. I
spent about the first year and ahalf as a patrol officer about
the next five as a detective andmy last five as a patrol
sergeant and finished out myundergrad and completed my
(14:21):
Masters while I was doing that,knowing that eventually I wanted
to come teach at the higher edlevel I I've done some adjunct
teaching here at Dakota Wesleyanthroughout that time and did a
lot of teaching and training atthe police department. During
Mitchell. It was something Ireally liked to do. You know, so
finish on my master's knowingthat that was kind of wanting
that to be my post retirementgig. But they they offered me a
(14:43):
spot in 2018 Here in thecriminal justice department DW
that I just couldn't turn down.
So I've been here since August2018 and just have have loved
every minute of it since
Aaron Harmon (14:54):
it had been a big transition going from Mitchell,
South Dakota to California andSan Diego and Then overtake
Kuwait and Iraq. And you know,the
Unknown (15:03):
the firt. The first time I ever flew on a plane was
the bootcamp to San Diego. Youknow, so that that was the first
time I'd ever flown biggest cityI'd probably been to was
Minneapolis, three differenttimes, you know, I mean, just
really didn't really didn't getout of Mitchell or this this
area, much, you know, traveledthroughout the area quite a bit,
(15:26):
just had never gone anywherebigger than that. So definitely
a culture shock. And I mean forit, you know, for anybody who
joined the Marines, man, there'snothing like that first week of
Marine Corps boot camp anyway.
It doesn't matter how I'veexperienced I'm a world
traveler, you are at that point,you're all the same level of
scum at that point. You know,so, but yeah, I mean,
(15:48):
definitely. And I, you know,man, I wouldn't, I wouldn't give
up those years for anything.
Loved the Marine Corps, inretrospect, loved my experiences
in Iraq, obviously, when you'rethere, you would like to be home
and vice versa, but certainlyshaped who I am today, for
(16:08):
better or worse. But you know, Ithink definitely for the better.
But my goal in joining theMarines was, like I said, I
mean, it was it was time to hitthe reset button. And it was
time to grow up. And itcertainly did that. So I am
eternally grateful for theMarine Corps. And, you know, the
things that it taught me and theexperiences that it gave me,
certainly has made me I thinkthe person that I am today, gave
(16:32):
me some direction, certainlygave me life experiences and
life skills that I've drawn backon a number of different times,
personally, professionally,certainly, as a law enforcement
officer on you know, and evenyou know, with my students here
at Dakota Wesleyan just tryingto pass on life experiences and
things like that to them aswell, too. So eternally grateful
for what the Marine Corps hasgiven me,
Aaron Harmon (16:53):
that sounds like a great experience. And the
quality assurance professionalside, we typically have a
different path between going tocollege, finding out that
science is really fun. Andgetting wrapped up in that and
then eventually working our wayinto a company where we
transitioned into the qualityassurance world, we have a lot
of jokes about being in QA, oneof them is, when you're in QA,
(17:18):
you sit alone at the lunchtable. I had a co worker, really
good friend, and he would saysomething along the lines of
once you're in QA, your friends,I'll go away, something like
that. But we end up in a lot ofconflict. And unfortunately,
typical college programstraining you to get into science
(17:39):
and quality assurance, do nottouch and how to manage navigate
conflict, especially when youhave tensions rising, because
things are changing in theworkplace, etc. But law
enforcement and the military,you probably see all kinds of
conflict. Absolutely. Probablyone of the big ones you would
see I'm assuming in as a patrolofficer, is when you get a I get
(18:02):
domestic disturbance. How do youapproach those situations when
you have that kind of conflictoccurring?
Unknown (18:10):
When you talk about like going to domestics, you
know, and those sorts of things.
I mean, those are always hairyanyway, because they're so
emotionally charged. Andsometimes you have victims that
don't want to be victims andtrying to cover for offenders or
offenders who you know, I'm notgoing to jail and the fight is
on for a while. I don't know ifthe statistics still hold true
(18:33):
today. But you talk aboutdomestics, domestics used to be
the number one cop killer of lawenforcement officers is
responding to domestic assaultswas the most dangerous call that
you could go to, because theyare so emotionally charged.
Maybe using domestics as anexample or just anything. The
calmest had always prevails. Andthat's something that that I
(18:54):
tell my kids here at Wesleyan, Itell them that all the time,
people are calling you. Becausesomething has gone bad in those
situations. In many instances,you will be involved in the
worst day people have ever hadin their life. And they're,
they're calling you to try torestore some order to it. And if
you don't have your head aboutyou, you can't do that. You're
(19:16):
actually only going to make thesituation worse. The number one
rule of thumb for anything whenyou're talking about crisis
negotiations, hostagenegotiations, any of those
things or just even dealing withstressful situations is you are
paid to be the calmest headthere. So whatever you need to
(19:36):
do to train yourself, or remindyourself to that. That's like
rule number one, in any of thesetypes of instances for sure.
Aaron Harmon (19:47):
That's got to be a challenging thing to do. I've
caught myself getting wrapped upwhere I don't know if it's like
trying to protect my ego, orwhat it is but wanting to like
as the person gets tense to likeBrian To the challenge and meet
them there.
Unknown (20:01):
Yes. And that that was something and I'm very open with
my kids about this is that you,you, you have to check your ego
at the door, even what you dowith your quality, you know, and
things like that. And what youknow I do as a law enforcement
officer or did as a lawenforcement officer or as a
Marine, definitely more in thelaw enforcement world is you
(20:23):
have to check your ego at thedoor. You can't get into that,
that back and forth. And thosethings, and there's a lot of
times where you just need to getit and just swallow hard and
move on. And I'm very open andhonest with my kids that
especially early on in my lawenforcement career, that's
something that I reallystruggled with, was being able
(20:43):
to swallow hard, and maybeturning the other cheek. And if
somebody challenged you to notchallenge them back. That's
definitely something that I hadto learn I had to learn it the
hard way. Is that sometimes tobe that that calmer head, like I
said, you just need to swallowhard, and just move on. But
definitely, you know, whenyou're talking about that
(21:04):
conflict and conflict resolutionand things like that, you got to
let the small stuff go, youcan't have the petty comments,
and you can't let other people'spetty comments get to you. And
you know, like you talk aboutegos in trying to match them and
things like that, like that wasthe one thing that was hardest
for me to do that once I kind oflearned to manage that a little
bit. And I think that somepeople would even be like,
(21:26):
really, you'd like you learn tomanage that, like I would hate
to have seen you before. It wasonce you learn to kind of manage
that. Definitely the the muchmore, much more productive you
are in terms of dealing withthose situations of conflict
resolution or just conflict ingeneral,
Aaron Harmon (21:44):
if you've got a scenario where you've got two
people yelling, and you can tellthat the tensions are there.
You've got the calm part downthere next steps you could do to
help bring things back.
Unknown (21:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
People want to be heard. Some ofmy additional training that I've
done when I was when I was a lawenforcement officer was a crisis
negotiator as a hostagenegotiator, critical incident
stress, debriefing teams, love,you know, those those things as
well too. But also de escalationtechniques with like mentally
(22:17):
ill individuals and things likethat, which is a huge push in
law enforcement right now. Andthat was one of the things that
I was involved in when I wasgetting out. And one of the
things that you learned, thatthey teach you is is that people
want to be listened to, you haveto actually actively listen to
people and parroting back tothem, like parrot like like
(22:39):
parakeet like a bird. Theyregurgitate everything that you
say to them, you know, that'swhat you need to do is you need
to pare it back to people justbe like, okay, hey, it sounds
like what you're telling me isthis, that's kind of a classic
standby line, you know, that youuse with people when you're
trying to de escalate. And itshows them that you're actively
listening to them. activelylistening to people is a huge
(23:01):
part of that. And to show themhow you're doing that is to say,
Okay, I hear what you're saying,it sounds like you're telling me
this, in my reading, you'recorrectly and actually doing
that to people, and showing themthat actively listening, and,
you know, verbally, you know,regurgitating back to them what
they're saying, and paraphrasingit, in your own words actually
does a lot in initially deescalating, whatever you've got
(23:26):
going on. Now, obviously, youtalk about people yelling back
and forth at each other. If youget somebody who's
preconditioned to yell, andthat's just going to be, that's
just going to be how it is. Andthat's how it is okay. But you
know, nine times out of 10 justdoing that act of listening and
showing people that you'reactively listening to them,
makes great strides and startingto de escalate any of those
(23:48):
situations.
Aaron Harmon (23:51):
That's, that's not the approach I've taken in the
past. And I can tell you that
Unknown (23:55):
well, and it's not always the approach that I took,
you know, in even, even today,sometimes it's not always the
approach. I mean, that, thatdefinitely, for me, that was the
one thing that that I learned,the better you can get it that
the more successful you are thatthe more easily in the more
quickly, you're going to be ableto de escalate any situation,
(24:20):
hopefully with somebody who'sthinking rationally. Now, you're
talking about somebody who'ssuffering from a mental health
crisis, you know, or somethinglike that. Obviously, that
throws a whole different wrenchinto the equation, right? Like
if you have somebody who's notthinking rationally, it doesn't
matter what you do. If you can'tbring them back to center, or
(24:40):
some people, it's just notpossible to bring them back to
center. But if you have rationalthinking people, that is going
to work for you more often thanit's not just actively listening
and showing them that you'reactively listening and giving
them the opportunity to eventalk first. Again, putting your
ego aside. Give them theopportunity to talk first
Aaron Harmon (25:01):
was talking to a friend of mine that worked in QA
for quite a while. And I askedher, have you ever found
yourself with this conflicthappening in the workplace, and
she told me about an examplewhere an employee had done
something wrong, came up to herand said, Hey, I did something
wrong, they went and talk to thenext person up the chain. And
that person began arguing withanother manager, and they got
(25:25):
into a full on shouting match ateach other, where everyone was
watching them shout. And itturned into this awkward
embarrassing moment in theworkplace. And the unfortunate
thing is, it sends a messagethat if you do something wrong,
you're going to create a wholebunch of conflict, which is a
terrible message to have, right?
Like you want people to be openand transparent about these
(25:46):
things. And so I'm trying tolike get my head like if I was
in that situation, so there theyare, I got these two people now
yelling, does there any likeadvantage to try to separate out
the crowd the like, any tacticsor techniques, or
Unknown (26:02):
if you can, good luck.
Um, this is something that wasnot popular in the Marine Corps,
but something that was verypopular, you know, in law
enforcement from like, asupervisory perspective is you
you praise in public and you youcriticize in private, in the
Marine Corps, getting your buttchewed in, in public was, you
know, that was the name of thegame. We don't care about your
(26:23):
feelings. Drill. Instructorsdon't care about your feelings,
that salty, Gunny doesn't careabout the feelings of that fear,
or that lance corporal in thatworld, that doesn't really
matter. But certainly in the lawenforcement world, that was
something you praise in publicand you you criticize in
private. So I mean, if there'sany way that you can make that
(26:44):
happen, that you know, like theexample that you're throwing out
there, you're you're past that,right? Like that. That was that
like, that's, that's already notgonna happen. It already hasn't
not happened. Yet, at that pointis a third party, you know, and
I mean, that that's what copsdo, right? They get called to
(27:06):
these situations where it'salready gone to hell in a
handbasket. And now you're beingasked to come in there and step
in. Now, the thing that lawenforcement officers have to
their advantage is they wear auniform, and with that uniform
comes in air of authority. Sopeople already know that, okay,
hey, the cops are here, the copcar just pulled up. And this
(27:27):
uniformed police officerswalking over this gun and badge
and everything else. Typically,that itself will help to
deescalate a situation, at leastin South Dakota, you know, most
of the time it does. I mean, Ican't talk about Chicago
anywhere else. If you don't havethat benefit. Yeah, man, I mean,
just just as the third party, ata minimum, you can walk in there
(27:48):
and go, Hey, let's take thisbehind closed doors, and then go
in there and try to mediate it.
But who knows if that's going towork? Good. Good luck. It at
least at the end of the day, youcan say that you tried. But even
in that situation, if you'regoing to come in as the third
party? Yeah, you definitely gotto be the calmest head. No, not
pointing fingers, don't yell topeople who are already yelling
(28:11):
at each other. You just lean inand go, Hey, let's go do this
behind closed doors, you got alot of people paying attention
to you here, let's go behindclosed doors, or can we do this
in a half hour, just get that,get that separation, and that
opportunity for people to stepback and take a breath. Most
people once you get them out ofthe moment, if they have acted
(28:32):
irrationally, they understandthat they've acted irrationally,
once you get them out of themoment. So I mean, anything that
you can do to kind of break thecycle of what's happening there.
You're not going to be wrong fordoing so that isn't gonna make a
difference? Well, it's going todepend, it's going to depend on
the people and, and you know,whether or not you actually have
(28:53):
any authority, either. When I
Aaron Harmon (28:55):
like that, when you said praise in public and
criticize in private, then intomedicine is the best medicine.
So if you get if you know,you're gonna have something that
could be something that createssome emotional conflict, saying,
hey, I want to talk to you, butlet's go back to his other space
where there's no one else orsomething. Yeah, absolutely. So
that you don't end up havingsomething happened, right, where
everyone else is hanging out?
Unknown (29:16):
Yep. Absolutely. And I mean, especially when you're
talking about your setting, likeyou're probably dealing with
people who are professionals,right. I mean, there are people
who are working their career,likely have some level of
education or have some sort ofequity built into their career
or in their company. They don'twant to be treated like a lance
(29:38):
corporal. You know, they, theydon't want to be treated like a
like a PFC. Reinisch Yeah, youyou you should, if that's your
job, to call people, quote,unquote, to the man on those
things. You should have the wordwith all around you to to
understand that, hey, these areprofessionals that I'm dealing
with and I can't treat them likethey're some 18 year old
(29:59):
college. Do I need to I need totreat them with with some level
of professionalism here, itdoesn't mean that you can't
correct them. But certainly theway that you would work with
them or treat them or deal withthem certainly would be
different. Like I said, ifyou're a lance corporal in the
Marine Corps, what I have found,certainly as a supervisor, as a
law enforcement officer, youknow, it's my job, if somebody
(30:22):
comes to make a complaintagainst one of my officers, it's
my job to deal with my officerin that situation, whether
they've done something right, orwhether they've done something
wrong. Or maybe they didsomething, right, that maybe had
you handled it this way, insteadof doing it this way, you know,
maybe it would have been better.
But yeah, in private, behindclosed doors professionally, and
(30:44):
don't beat around the bush, ifyou're somebody who's got to
correct somebody, don't dancearound it. Um, I drill into my
kids heads empathy, from a lawenforcement perspective, you're
dealing with somebody on acriminal matter, you know, or
anything else, you you shouldtreat them how you would want to
be treated. Now, you can't dothat 10 times out of 10. But
(31:06):
certainly eight times or ninetimes out of 10, you can write
to try to have that empathy inthere. Well, same deal. If you
were the subordinate, and yougot called into your supervisors
office, do you? Do you want meto beat around the bush? Or do
you just want me to rip thebandage off. And I found that
that ripping the bandage off,but doing so as as
professionally as possible isdefinitely the best policy.
Aaron Harmon (31:30):
So got the scenario where I observe
somebody doing something that Iknow, is not where we need to be
from a quality perspective forsome reason. First of all,
making sure there's no onearound or I can like, kind of
isolate them a little bit. Becalm, say, Hey, I observe this,
which doesn't line up with ourprocedure. That's an example. So
(31:53):
I'm calling it out, and thengiving them a chance to talk.
And then listen to them.
Unknown (31:58):
Yep. Or even depending on the situation. One example
that I can give you is, I had anofficer who pulled the lady
over, pulls her over failed tostop at a stop sign is what it
was. I've seen the in carcameras clearly didn't stop for
the stop sign. It's a good stop,pulls her over,
(32:21):
goes and walks up to the car.
Hey, this is who I am. This isthe reason I pulled you over
isn't a reason why you didn'tstop. You know what? No, I
actually I thought I did. Okay,fair enough. You have a driver's
license registration proof ofinsurance? Yep, I do. Here you
go, goes back to his car, writesher an actual citation for
failed to stop at a stop sign,which certainly is within his
right to do. Writer a citation,goes back up to the car, gives
(32:46):
her back on information andsays, hey, here you go. Here's
your driver's license, yourregistration, your proof of
insurance. I've issued you acitation today for failure stop
at a stop sign. You have twooptions, either pay the fine by
this date, or if you wish tocontest this ticket. This is
your court date, you know, to tocome to court to do that. I need
you to sign that the sign theticket. And she's like, I'm not
(33:09):
signing it. And he was put yougot to? And she goes, No, I
don't. And he's like, Yeah, youdo. And you know, and now all of
a sudden, you're you're intothis back and forth of Yes, er,
no, I'm not. Yes, you're no, I'mnot. And he finally says, look,
like if you don't sign this, I'mtaking you to jail, you know,
and I'm paraphrasing here, buthe was very professional. But
(33:30):
he's like, Hey, if you don'tsign it, I'm taking you to jail.
And she's like, whoa, what?
Third for not stopping at a stopsign? You're telling me that
you're going to take me to jailnow? Are you? Are you kidding
me. And she ends up signing theticket, you know, essentially
under protest. And then ofcourse, comes down to the police
department to file a complaint.
So I call the officer and Idownload the body camera and
(33:53):
watch the whole thing. And therewas nothing that he did. That
was outside of the scope ofpolicy. He wasn't even wrong and
telling her that if she didn'tsign the ticket, that she would
have to go to jail. He's noteven wrong and telling her that
that's actually what happensbecause what you're signing is
not an admission of guilt. It'ssigning that you agree that I'm
(34:15):
either going to pay the fine bythis date, or I'm going to come
to court and I'm going tocontest this ticket. It's
essentially a promise to appearsall your signing. She didn't see
it that way. She saw it as holycrap, I'm going to jail because
I ran a stop sign that I don'teven think I did. So I hear her
out. And I just explained to herI say hey, actually, you know
(34:38):
what signing the ticket actuallydoes. It's it's a promise to
appear. You're either promisingto appear or you're saying
you're going to you're going todo this and she goes well, Jesus
had had I known that. I justwould have signed the damn
ticket right away. And I'm like,Yep, I get it. And I will talk
to our officer about that. And Italked to our officer and the
first thing I said said was Igo, Hey, man, you did nothing
(35:00):
wrong. Okay, so like,immediately I've already de
escalated anything that I'mgoing to have with this, right?
And I'm like, Hey, man, just soyou know, you've done nothing
wrong. That being said, Did youconsider this? And he's like,
You know what? I guess I thoughtI explained that to her. But
you're right, I guess I guess Ididn't. You can get into a
(35:20):
situation, especially as asupervisor, or as a law
enforcement officer, as aprofessional, that you know,
your job so well, that you knowwhat it means to sign the
citation. You just assume thatshe does as well, too. And I
think that that's what happenedwith this. He's like, geez, you
know, I guess I didn't eventhink to explain all that to
her. You know, I just assumed,you know, where I've done this
(35:42):
100 times, um, you know, I justthought that it was common. And
I'm like, Yeah, well, okay. Butyou know, now next time, you
know, in the future, he's like,Yep, totally get it. Okay. So
I've just killed two birds withone stone, I've effectively
supervised my officer to belike, hey, in the future, you
might want to keep this in mind.
And I've also appeased ourcitizenry as well, too. He
(36:06):
talked to his officer, I won,okay, like I want on this. That
officer got talked to that, youknow, one day, she still got her
ticket, she still had to payyour fine. You know, and, and
no, no, no harm, no foul withthe officer. And plus, he
learned better for the next timearound. It wasn't that he was
unprofessional. He wasprofessional with her. He didn't
(36:29):
like I said, he did nothingwrong via the policy. But I gave
him an opportunity to tell hisside. And once he told the side,
I said, Okay, fair enough. Didyou consider this? You know
what, no, I didn't. Well, then Ialso got my part out as well,
too. So it was a learningexperience for everybody. Had I
brought him into my office andjust been like, dude, what, why
(36:50):
don't you just tell her rightaway? You know, that if you if
you sign this, this is what thismeans? Why didn't you tell her
that? You know, had I done that?
I'm setting myself up, I'mactually escalating the
situation. But I gave him anopportunity to tell his side of
the story. And then I'm like,okay, consider this side of it.
He's like, Yep, I totally getit. I accomplish the same goal.
I just did it around about wayto get there that that left,
(37:14):
everybody feeling good. Most ofthe time, all people want to
hear is that you're sorry,whether you're right or whether
you're wrong. People just wantto hear the words, I'm sorry,
come out of your mouth. Andthat's something that I learned,
the longer that I was in lawenforcement had to have to deal
with those types of things. It'snot I'm sorry, that I'm
apologizing to you that I'vedone something wrong. And even
(37:35):
just be? Well, I'm sorry thatyou know that you had such a
negative experience with ustoday. They even hear that last
part, they heard the front part.
And that's all that man. It'sreally word games, while still
being sincere. Like, I'mcertainly not saying, you know,
pull the wool over people's eyesor anything like that. I'm
certainly or mislead them. I'mabsolutely not saying that.
That's last thing you want todo. That understanding what
(37:58):
people want to hear. And givingit to them? How you would want
it yourself are two veryimportant ways to do that.
Aaron Harmon (38:07):
And it sounds like that's the empathy part.
Unknown (38:09):
It is. Yeah, it is.
Yeah. In my, my kids, like,every time I say empathy, like
they just giggle, you know,like, they know, what's my word?
The E word, you know, is what itis. So yeah, my my kids, we
giggle about it all the time.
But I mean, seriously, my wifewould roll her eyes, you'd be
like empathy. And Joel really,but I mean, really, I mean,
(38:33):
that's, that's the key to somany different things, is just
trying to bring yourself totheir level, and relate to them,
and treat them how you thinkthat they probably want to be
treated, or how you would liketo be treated. That is such a
huge part, certainly in lawenforcement, talking about de
escalation techniques, and thosesorts of things, too. I mean, it
(38:53):
just is. It's so important. Andit's different than sympathy.
There's a difference betweensympathy and empathy. Some
people want to be felt sorry forwhich is sympathy. But other
people find that patronizing.
But nobody, nobody finds empathyas being patronizing. Nobody
sees it that way, or at leastnot rational thinking people. So
there's definitely a differencebetween sympathy and empathy.
But if you if you can keep thatempathy in the forefront of your
(39:17):
mind, that's going to get youout of more of these situations
are going to is going to makethem successful. More times than
unsuccessful. captured here
Aaron Harmon (39:27):
is first of all prevention. So you got the
privacy. You got the Hey, no,tell me what's going on.
Unknown (39:34):
Perspective. Sure. Tell me what you're thinking. Yeah.
Aaron Harmon (39:38):
And then the listening, the parroting so you
show that you're listening? Yep.
And then doing that in a waythat shows empathy? Absolutely.
I feel like it'd be pretty hardto still be upset with someone
that was doing that. Well.
Unknown (39:50):
It would be Yeah, it would be like I said, Do you
have somebody who's not thinkingrationally? Look, man, it
doesn't matter what you're goingto do. Right? If they're not,
they're not thinking rationally.
But yes, rational thinkingpeople, hopefully, they may not
agree with you. But hopefullythey at least understand you and
where you're coming from. Wedon't have to agree at the end
(40:11):
of the day, but you still got torespect it. And certainly if I'm
your supervisor, you betterrespect it. I also need to act
in a way that should Garner thatrespect as well to
Aaron Harmon (40:24):
then at the end, if necessary, you can throw in
Unknown (40:27):
I'm sorry. Yeah. In some way, shape or form. Yeah.
Aaron Harmon (40:32):
And then you add a better place. Absolutely. Yeah,
absolutely. Well, thank you,Joel.
Unknown (40:39):
This is really good.
Yeah, absolutely.
Aaron Harmon (40:42):
Thank you for listening. This is the end of
season two. I look forward tobringing you season three. After
more than 21 years of service atthe NASA OIG and 30 years in law
enforcement Special Agent wayKrieger died on August 21 2020.
Following a brief illness.
Wade's work at the NASA OIGKennedy Space Center in Florida
included handling numeroushighly successful white collar
(41:02):
criminal and civilinvestigations to include
product substitution, theft oftrade secrets, Grant fraud,
lease fraud, conflicts ofinterest, conspiracy,
embezzlement, theft, and variousother procurement related
matters. Wade was a highlyskilled marksman and firearms
instructor. He served as regularguest instructor at the Federal
Law Enforcement Training Centersproduct substitution courses
(41:24):
since 2008 and was a 2018graduate of the FBI National
Academy class 276. Prior tojoining NASA OIG Wade was a
special agent with the Air ForceOffice of Special Investigations
AF OSI, which he joined in 1989after graduating from Memphis
State University and receiving aUS Air Force commission via Air
Force ROTC. while on active dutyWade served tours in Arkansas,
(41:47):
Guam, Panama and Florida. Hecommanded the Panama Jack Task
Force, a unique tri servicecounter smuggling unit based in
the Republic of Panama from 1993to 1995. He also served as
commander of afosr detachmentfor 19 Tyndale Air Force Base,
Florida from 1995 to 1998. In1999, way transition from active
(42:07):
duty and became a reserve AF OSIofficer to join NASA OIG shortly
after, Wade was a graduate ofthe US Air Force Command and
Staff College and retired fromthe Air Force Reserve in 2010.
As Lieutenant Colonel, way tosurvive by its wife, Brenda, his
daughter, Sidney and two sons,Joseph and Aaron. Thank you,
Wade for helping me start thispodcast. And all you done for
(42:28):
our country. We hope you enjoyedthis episode. This is brought to
you thanks for South Dakotabiotech Association. If you have
a story you'd like us to exploreand share, let us know by
visiting www. SD bio.org. Also,if you live in the Sioux Falls
area, check out QUIBIT a localQuality Assurance Professionals
Network. You can find out moreabout QUIBIT by clicking on the
(42:51):
link on our website too. Thanksfor listening
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