February 15, 2023 • 39 mins
The field of rehabilitation counseling was legislated into existence over 100 years ago. As you can imagine, some elements of the profession have changed quite a bit since its inception. Dr. Kate Kline spends time in both the classroom and private practice to keep up with all adapting elements of the field to best prepare students for what's ahead.
In this episode of Inside Rehabilitation Counseling, Dr. Kline explains why she introduces herself as a "counselor, but mainly a servant." Dr. Kline explains her background, shares insights on virtual counseling, and the ways in which competitive hiring practices are shifting where CRCs work.
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Episode Transcript
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Pam Shlemon (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Inside Rehabilitation
Counseling, presented by theCommission on Rehabilitation
Counselor Certification.
I'm Pam Schlemon, executivedirector of CRCC, and we're so
glad to have you here foranother conversation on the art
and science of rehabilitationcounseling.
The field of rehabilitationcounseling was legislated into
existence over 100 years ago.
As you can imagine, someelements of the profession have
(00:27):
changed quite a bit since itsinception.
A few of those changes,including virtual services and
competitive hiring practices areever evolving, making it crucial
for CRCs to keep up with thelatest trends and employment
practices.
Dr.
Kate Klein, our guest for thisepisode, truly walks the talk
when it comes to keeping up withwhat's happening in the field.
You'll hear Dr.
Klein talk about everything fromwhat drives her to advocate for
(00:49):
CRCs with her students, as wellas why she chooses to stay
active in private practice.
In addition to being aneducator, she shares insights on
new evolutions in the field thatare driving interests in CRCs
across all practice settingsfrom state VR to online
counseling platforms.
Please enjoy our conversationwith Dr.
Kate Klein.
Well, welcome Kate.
It's a real pleasure to have youon inside Rehabilitation
(01:11):
Counseling podcast.
So today we're just gonna diveinto your career a little bit
and, um, talk about yourcredential and the impact that
the credential has, but the workyou've been doing.
And I just wanna start off bysaying that I've had the
pleasure of working with youover the last three years as a
board member and as a member ofthe standards and exam committee
and your passion and dedicationis so present.
(01:34):
Um, where does that come from?
Dr. Kate Klein (01:35):
Oh, gosh, that's a great question.
Um, I think some of it's taught,um, I was raised by a pretty
strong, uh, independent woman,so to speak, but I, a lot of
it's my personality.
I just, uh, I'm very authentic.
So if I feel a certain way orsomething feels, uh, if I, I
tend sometimes to have strongopinions in a room or, or maybe
(01:56):
sometimes if people are alltalking about this one thing, I
always find myself talking aboutthe other thing.
And, uh, you know, share thatperspective from a place of
respect, certainly.
But I always think it leads toreally good discussion and
conversation and, um, especiallywhen we, when we, um, are
serving, uh, vulnerablepopulations and we have to be
(02:18):
advocates, I think it's a reallygood skill to have to be
outspoken and, um, independentthinking.
And, um, that's how we getthings done.
Pam Shlemon (02:27):
Tell me a little bit about how you got into the
field of rehabilitationcounseling.
What drew you to the work?
Dr. Kate Klein (02:33):
Well, I, I think I'm probably like a lot of other
professionals in our field, andthat I didn't, I didn't know
about this field existing, and Ijust did a lot of due diligence
and had a lot of luck along theway.
So whenever I talk to peopleabout our field, I always ask in
, in a student capacity, Ialways, the first question I ask
is, raise your hand if when youwere a kid you wanted to be a
(02:55):
veterinarian or work withanimals.
And undoubtedly like 50 to 75%of the room, shoots up their
hand.
Um, and I think that that'scommon.
Like we have a lot of similarcharacteristics with other
servant occupations and peoplewho have a genuine desire to be
the change that they see intheir communities and do good
(03:18):
for others.
And the animal connection is,again, uh, serving and helping
those without a voice.
And I think that sometimesthere's a lot of parallels to
serving the disabilitycommunity.
Um, so long story short, I, Iwas pursuing becoming a
veterinarian with the support ofmy parents as like a kid.
And then I didn't realize thatpart of serving animals was, was
(03:41):
at times euthanasia.
And, uh, that's above my paygrade.
Like that's, I, that's not,that's not a, uh, direction that
I think I could, I'd be in thefetal position, let's just say
that quite a bit.
Um, that would be tough for me.
So I talked to my parents.
I was like, I don't think thatthis is a direction that I'm
comfortable pursuing.
And they talked to me about whyI wanted to be, you know, help
(04:06):
animals and what other placesmight, um, serve in similar
ways.
And we talked about education.
Ironically, I never thought I'dbe an educator, and we talked
about counseling and psychology.
And so I, I was most familiarwith, or most interested, I
guess, in like, uh, psychology.
So I went on to college and Imajored in psychology.
(04:27):
And, um, I started, uh, I wasvery, um, intentional about
wanting to work in the field inan entry level capacity.
And that's how I met what Ireferred to as like my career
mentor.
Um, he was a neuropsychologist,his name is, is Ed Cook.
And, um, he worked withindividuals with TBIs, and he
(04:48):
had a master's degree inrehabilitation counseling from
Michigan State.
And that's how I found out aboutthe field.
I, I ended up working forsomebody who served individuals
with traumatic brain injuriesand strokes.
I watched him assist them in therehabilitation.
I watched him connect them withthe community and be an advocate
and, and a resource for thecommunity.
(05:09):
And, um, it was a no-brainer forme how much change I saw him,
um, facilitate in these folks'lives.
I knew I wanted to be a part ofit.
Uh, immediately it was, it was,um, intoxicating, almost just,
uh, just being around thatenergy.
And so, so that's how I, I waslike, you know, I'm definitely
(05:31):
gonna apply to this program.
And, um, so yeah, so that's howI got into the field, so to
speak.
When I entered my program and Iintroduced myself on my first
day, I was like, oh, I'm herebecause I'm gonna work with,
with TBI patients.
Um, you know, thanks for coming.
And of course, uh, I, as I wentthrough my program, I was
(05:52):
exposed to so many differentthings and, um, it really opened
my eyes.
So, um, it, it's led me in a lotof great
Pam Shlemon (06:00):
Paths.
Gosh, thank you for sharingthat.
I love your entry into thisfield, and like so many that
we've spoken to, it's not adirect pathway.
It really isn't.
But those stories are soinspiring.
This is, uh, career, it's not ajob, right.
Because you're so passionateabout the work you all do.
As you said, you went to bothyour masters in your doctorate
(06:21):
are from Michigan StateUniversity.
Uh, you worked as a graduateresearcher assistant with Dr.
Michael Leahy, a distinguishedprofessor of rehabilitation
counseling.
Well-known professor.
Absolutely.
Um, he since retired.
What does an educationexperience from Dr.
Lehi mean to you, and how hasthat inspired you to prepare for
your career?
Dr. Kate Klein (06:39):
Well, that's a great question and a loaded one.
Of course, working around Dr.
Leahy, just knowing hisreputation in the field and how
much he is respected and howmuch he's done, um, was, you
know, definitely had myattention.
Um, certainly, and I knew it wasa, he was an individual that I
wanted to be around more andlearn from more.
(07:01):
Um, I remember my first docprogram class, um, I don't
recall the name of it, but hefacilitated that course from a,
in, in a way that I, I had neverexperienced as, as a student.
Uh, it was more as doctoralprograms are, it was more of a
discussion and conversation andaround Robin, um, experience.
But he just like held stage fora little bit.
(07:22):
He sat there and he spoke to usabout all the things that he
personally has experienced andbeen involved in.
And you realize that you arearound, you know, you're around
somebody who has helped shapethe history of your discipline,
and it's powerful.
And, uh, the other things that Ijust really appreciated about
Dr.
Leahy is that working with himor being a student of his, uh,
(07:43):
open doors for me that I neverhad anticipated, so specifically
his work in Ireland and working,um, globally on the disability
community, was something Idirectly benefited from.
I also went to Ireland with himand, uh, participated in the
doctorate conference.
That's the first time I had everlike, left the country and had
(08:04):
an experience like that, everseen anything that old, um, the
buildings, the history, but alsogoing from a disability lens and
seeing, in my master's program,I had a, a, a, a peer in that
program that was from Poland.
Um, his name was Joseph, and hewas studying in the United
States because he was anindividual with a disability and
(08:27):
he wanted to learn how to changepolicies back home.
And we had a lot ofconversations about just, um,
infrastructure, um, architectureand what it was like in Poland
versus what he was experiencingthere in East Lansing.
And, uh, the contrast was, Imean, it was, it, it was
interesting hearing that likethey don't have ramps and they
(08:48):
don't necessarily have a lot ofaccessible buildings.
And so it was neat meeting himand hearing that perspective,
and then experiencing it myselfwhen I got to go to Ireland and
recognizing, wow, we have doneso much in our country to, to
serve and, and open doors andprovide access for, for people
with disabilities.
(09:09):
But since we are so advancedcompared to these other
countries, we should be muchfarther along than we are now.
I'm, I'm thinking aboutemployment rates, um, but we
have tools and resources.
We're doing things right.
Why are we not further along inthis, this social issue than we
are right now?
So that was, that wasinteresting.
(09:29):
Um, certainly.
But going back to Dr.
Leahy too, um, he was somebodythat, um, has done a lot of
research regarding, uh, youknow, the role and function
studies of course, and job tasksand working out or reaching out
to professionals in the field tofigure out what their needs
were, what they're seeing, andhow does that inform what we do
as educators.
And of course, thecertification.
(09:51):
So I, it was so easy for me tosee, I'm like, sometimes I feel
like it's hard in, uh, an R oneor a research institution that
the direct connection betweenthe work we're doing and what
the outcomes are and how itdirectly impacts something that
I can see that's tangible.
And it was very abundantly clearfor me with Dr.
(10:11):
Leahy.
So, um, I just, again, remember,that was a powerful experience.
I actually did my dissertation,um, while I was in Michigan.
I worked for MichiganRehabilitation Services as a
transition counselor.
And so I had a, a passion and aheart for serving youth.
And so I was able to talk to Dr.
(10:32):
Lehe and, and have some guidancefrom him about how to, how to
connect to those rehabilitationcounselors that also serve youth
and how, what are their needsand how might their needs differ
from counselors that serveadults or have other caseloads,
and how can I drill down alittle bit those unique needs.
So, um, he was an incrediblementor.
(10:52):
Uh, just, you know, great guyoverall.
I, I, I enjoyed my time with himtremendously.
Pam Shlemon (10:58):
Yeah, he has impacted so many lives.
He just, I don't think he knowsthe extent or what he's done to
this field.
Um, and too bad we can't clonehim.
.
Yeah.
Obviously C R C C is thecertification organization, and
we, one of our primary roles isto make sure that students are
(11:19):
well prepared to sit for the CRCexam and be successful to work
with individuals withdisabilities.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The, the credential demonstratescompetency and it separates
those that are not competentfrom those that are to work with
individuals with disabilities.
I know you've taught at, you'vetaught at Merrillville in
rehabilitation counseling, and Ihad you sit on a panel to talk
(11:42):
about how do you prepare yourstudents, um, not just to sit
for the CRC exam, but how do youprepare them to go out into the
world and be successful.
But obviously the most importantthing is to sit for that C R C
exam, to get that ultimatecertification based on the
outcomes that we have seen fromyour program.
Tell the audience a little bitabout what are your driving
(12:02):
motivators to prepare yourstudents, and how are you
successful?
How do you think that c r C hasbenefited you from preparing
your students?
Anybody
Dr. Kate Klein (12:11):
That's listening right now, if you are an
educator, um, and there's anopportunity for you to serve
CRCC specifically on thestandards and exams committee
underneath the, the leadershipof Janine, um, I highly
recommend it.
It is an invaluable experiencefor your students.
Your service on this committeewill directly benefit your
(12:33):
institution, your program, andyour students, because you will
start to understand, uh, pardonmy analogy, but like what's
behind us as curtain?
Like how does this whole thingcome together?
How does it work?
What does it look like?
And, and it kind of demystifiesthis really important milestone
of professionals in our field.
So we need people that areinterested in this and helping
(12:56):
this cause and understanding howit works so that they can go
back to their institutions andinspire and encourage students.
So first and foremost, that'sthe best way to do it as an
educator.
First students, how I help themprepare is I, first of all, I
have the knowledge from servingthat committee about how the
exam is broken down.
Like, you know, that there aretwo forms here.
(13:17):
There's a rehab form in thecounseling form.
What does that look like?
Um, we know a little bit aboutlike areas or content areas
from, well, we know a lot aboutcontent areas from the role and
function study, but we know alittle bit about which areas,
uh, students might struggle withmore.
Um, first time test taker.
So, um, what to be aware of.
Um, yes, you might not loveresearch, but you know, we have
(13:39):
to focus on, basically what Itell my students is you have to
go into every course that you'vetaken and you have to look at
your syllabi.
That's where I start and look atthe main topics that were
covered in that course.
So yes, go back to research, um,go back to case management, of
course, you know, foundationsevery course that you've taken.
Refresh yourself about thetopics that are covered in that
(13:59):
course, especially if it was twoyears ago.
And pull out your notes andyour, your texts to be able to
make sure that you have someunderstanding of that.
So it's really easy for us whenwe take a, an exam at the end of
our program to forget what welearned about in the first
semester.
But when you sit for that exam,those content courses you took
semester one are just asabundantly clear as they were,
(14:21):
you know, as they are today.
So you need to do your duediligence to refresh yourself.
I like to tell students atorientation, so before they even
have taken their first course,they, I encourage students to
take, to basically engage ingood record keeping as a
professional skill, but also torecognize that keeping notes
(14:41):
being organized, um,highlighting the things that
your faculty member and yourtextbook point out as
significant pieces ofinformation so that you can
draw, draw back on that whenyou're studying are really good
best practices to prepareyourself when you get, when you
get ready.
Pam Shlemon (14:57):
I'm gonna shift from the education to another
area of practice setting you areinvolved in.
And you are actually the firstCRC on our podcast.
Not only you're an academia, butalso you own your own private
practice.
Yeah.
Can you share with our audiencehow it came to be that you
started your own privatepractice and share for the new
(15:17):
professionals the work that youdo in your practice?
Dr. Kate Klein (15:20):
Oh my goodness.
I love this question.
I love that you're asking methis.
Um, so I believe that it is veryimportant for, for myself as an
educator to be engaged in thefield, um, to be able to ha be
able to relate to students andwhat they're experiencing and
going through.
So it's possible for me because,you know, I, I basically see,
(15:43):
you know, no more than 10clients a week.
Um, but I, I do that so that I'mstill actively serving.
I'm working, you know, I'mdealing with client issues, with
caseload management, um, youknow, using theories and
interventions, and so I can havethat dialogue with students
because this, this helps me as Iteach clinical courses as well.
(16:03):
It, you know, and I, if I goback to the pandemic, so, um, I
have three little boys.
Um, and when my second son wasborn, I stopped seeing clients.
Um, and I thought, I'm not gonnasee clients until my, my kids
are in school.
And then the pandemic hit, andthen suddenly I'm at home all
the time with my kids, and I amnot having any interaction with
(16:27):
adults, and I'm feeling isolated, um, overwhelmed, burnt out.
I'm craving if you don't knowme, I'm an extrovert and I
thrive.
I get energy from being withpeople.
And so it was a tremendouslyhard time.
I, I know it was hard foreverybody for a lot of reasons,
but I missed, I missed mystudents.
(16:48):
I miss interacting with people.
And so I started seeing clientsagain through telehealth because
it was possible for me as, as aparent, um, as somebody as an
American who's also, you know,like isolated in my house.
And I know that there were somany people that had a need, I
started serving people again andseeing people again.
Um, it was such a, a gift for meto be able to like, talk to
(17:12):
people.
Um, and of course, uh, they'retalking about what's going on in
their world and how they'recoping, but it was tremendously
healing for me as well.
Um, I, I'm so thankful that ourfield has, has made this shift
and that there is pos it is, uh,possible to serve folks.
Um, so, so I still see clients,I see them all virtually because
(17:35):
of this.
And I like telehealth because itdoes increase access.
Mm-hmm.
.
So traditionally, if I wouldhave somebody who, who could not
make it to my office or whocould not see me due to active
symptomology or transportationissues, that that barrier is
gone.
Um, I can all somebody, peopledon't even need a laptop.
(17:55):
A lot of clients can access methrough their cell phones.
And, um, so I can, I can workwith people in a variety of
different, um, needs that theymight have.
I always tell my students how,um, in a, um, a rehabilitation
counseling program, we, we talkabout serving people with
disabilities, we talk about theemployment aspect, of course,
but we also know that a lot ofstudents have a desire to serve,
(18:19):
obviously clients with, withdifferent needs and abilities,
but not always the vocationalroute.
Mm-hmm.
, and I get that.
I totally get that.
I try not to tell them, like,just, just wait and see what
happens as you take your classesand go through the program.
But, um, I remind them that,and, and when they get to
clinical courses that there isnot a single client that I
(18:39):
serve, and I promise, I'll tellyou what I tell them.
I don't, I don't facilitate and,and guide the conversations and
sessions my clients do.
But there is not a single clientthat I serve that doesn't talk
about their job.
Every single client talks aboutwork, they talk about job
satisfaction, they talk aboutcompensation, they talk about
work life balance, they talkabout burnout.
(19:00):
It is, it is pervasive becauseour work is our identity, right?
And so anybody who is, is in thefield right now, or preparing to
be in the field that wants toconsider, you know, clinical
mental health, or they're justgoing the clinical route, um,
these courses that are abundantin the rehabilitation counseling
program, the career development,the job placement, the medical
(19:23):
aspects, all of that comes up inprivate practice settings.
And you will be better preparedto have those discussions and
help clients advocate forthemselves, um, advocate for
fair wages.
Um, that's been a, a reallyinteresting conversation I've
been having with clientsthroughout the pandemic because,
you know, folks have beengetting laid off.
(19:43):
They've been looking for,they've been making career
shifts, they've been movingremote.
And there's also, um, you know,in, in many different fields, a
high demand for skilled workers.
And so how do we advocate forourselves?
How do we have our needs met?
Um, how do we ask for raises?
(20:04):
How do we research what a goingrate is?
And, and how do we prepare thoseconversations with, uh, with HR
or, or our employers so that we,we feel empowered at work and
not powerless, so to speak.
So I love those discussions.
Pam Shlemon (20:20):
And I think what you just mentioned, two things I
wanna say to comment on what youjust mentioned.
One, for individuals withdisabilities, work is
therapeutic for them.
So it's so important that theyhave meaningful employment.
Two, I think when you talk aboutthe work that you do in private
practice without having yourcrc, you can't do that work.
(20:43):
You're not, that's what setsCRCs apart, that their unique
difference under the counselingumbrella is the disability
portion of it.
The rehabilitation anddisability counseling is
counseling and, and it'simportant for sure, but without
that rehabilitation anddisability, you can't serve
individuals with disabilitiesand do the work that you're
doing.
Dr. Kate Klein (21:00):
Absolutely.
I mean, just, just in the past,um, you know, I, I had several,
I've, I've served severalindividuals that identify as
healthcare workers, that arenurses, that are physicians, um,
that have had terribleexperiences professionally over
the past two years and, youknow, predating the pandemic and
mental health and mental healthdiagnosis and symptoms are only
(21:23):
exacerbated by feelingundervalued and overwhelmed.
Right?
And how do we slow down andfocus on our needs and make sure
that we're safe and secure andbefore we figure out what our
next step is and how do we, weneed somebody to remind us of
our worth and, um, when it seemslike nobody else does.
And so being, being the, the,the person who can walk that
(21:48):
path and help show somebody theway and remind them about their
worth and remind them everythingthat is, you know, that we're
seeing happening around us, and,and, um, how how critical they
are has been, uh, just one ofthe best professional
experiences that, that I canattest to really,
Pam Shlemon (22:08):
I'll say one last thing on this.
We have three pathways that youcan come in to obtain this crc
and obviously it's through, uh,an accredited rehabilitation, a
master's program inrehabilitation or clinical
rehabilitation counseling ornon-accredited.
And then the third way is youhave to have a master's in a
like-minded profession, like P TO T, mental health, similar
(22:30):
profession.
Since I've been with theorganization, that third pathway
has grown tremendously.
Yeah.
And the reason why is becausethey don't have that, that
component of, uh, of thatrehabilitation and disability.
So when we talk to individuals,why are you coming in?
They still have to meet therequirements and they have to
get all the, the courses for,uh, rehabilitation and
(22:51):
disability, cuz they alreadyhave the counseling pieces.
Most of the time it is becausethey're working with so many, so
many of their clients have someform of disability and they
don't feel competent enough to,to work with them.
Yeah.
So I just wanted to share that.
I'm gonna go back to yourprivate practice.
How did you know how to startyour own private practice?
Dr. Kate Klein (23:11):
Oh, that, you know, this goes back to the
first question you asked me,where I responded, where a lot
of it's my personality andsometimes I'm a dog with a bone
.
Um, so I, um, I had to figure itout quite a bit, um, myself.
So what I did was, and you know,a lot of the, um, advice I give
students and to some extentclients, it's stuff that's
(23:33):
happened to me.
I mean, I remember, so when Imoved to Missouri, um, I,
somebody reached out, somebodyfound me.
I was not looking for, you know,a private practice experience.
Somebody found me and called meat my office on campus one day
and said, Hey, um, you're an L PC and a crc and I need somebody
in my office to serve clients.
(23:54):
We don't have enough cliniciansto meet the need here.
Have you gotten your license inMissouri yet?
And I'm like, well, wow.
Um, you know, this is, this issomething that's unexpected.
I'm not, I wasn't anticipatingthis.
And I said, um, I'm, I'm workingon this, but like, let's meet.
And, um, you know, lo and behold, um, I was actually, I was
expecting my first child at thetime.
(24:17):
Um, and it was early on in thepregnancy.
And so this actually goes backto employment law.
And, um, you know, I had to havethis experience where, when do I
disclose, I know that thisperson wants me to work for them
or start serving their clients,but when do I disclose?
And, and, and, um, so that wasan, an interesting experience.
And ultimately, and I have a lotof experience talking to people
(24:38):
about their rights withdisclosure and rare, I've never
been in the situation myself.
So, um, um, I, I talked tostudents about this all the time
too, but I work for this woman,um, uh, and started seeing
clients, um, after my firstchild was born and I went on, on
maternity leave and whatnot.
Um, and I, and so she kind oftaught me the way about how to
(24:59):
serve, uh, in a, in a privatepractice setting.
But as you will realize, um,when you working in an
association, there areadministrative fees taken off of
whatever you're, you're earning.
So you're earning the, uh, uh,the practice money and your take
home is, you know, a, a smallerfraction of that.
And I, of course, I was like,Hmm, well this is interesting.
(25:22):
Um, I am qualified, trained,competent.
Why am I letting somebody takethis massive proportion of what
I've worked so hard for and whatany CRC has worked hard for?
And so I went off on my own andI figured out how to do it
myself.
And, um, because again, like Iwould tell a client, like, I, I
(25:47):
think that you should, youshould earn what you think
you're worth, and you shouldwork to make that happen
regardless of the situation youfind yourself in.
There's a lot of satisfaction injust have, even if I see five
people a week, I enjoy havingcontrol over my schedule and,
and meeting their needs.
I feel like I'm like, you know,I'm serving them and the way
that they need to be served.
(26:07):
I'm able to do it on my termsnow on somebody else's terms.
And I love that.
So during the pandemic, um, Istarted working for Better Help
and Talk space because I knewthat my students were gonna be
interested in this because theseplatforms are massive marketing
all over the place, and itramped up during the pandemic.
Like they put a ton of moneyinto marketing to try and get
(26:30):
clients, and then I know ifthey're trying to get clients,
they're gonna try and get mystudents.
And so I wanted to go, I wantedto be a Guinea pig and tell my
students, what's this all about?
And really it's more of the sameof what I experienced, which is,
is they're gonna take you your,your credentials, your
competency, your knowledge, andthey're gonna profit off of it.
Um, I mean, that's my very jadedopinion.
(26:52):
Yeah.
I think it's a wonderfulexperience to have for, for new
professionals to build acaseload and manage a caseload.
And yes, you could earn a livingoff of it.
You'd have to, you know, itwould be a full day Monday
through Friday, you'd probablyhave to see like eight clients,
which is typical for, for aprofessional and in, in a
private practice setting.
And there are so many people onthose platforms that have
(27:14):
disabilities that need help andthat are struggling.
So like, it is definitely aplace to go to serve, um, to
serve clients and, and utilizeour, our credentials.
But as somebody gets experiencedwith that and comfortable, um, I
think it's, you know, Iencourage people to, to
consider, you know, having theirown shingles, so to speak.
Pam Shlemon (27:37):
Thank you.
I think that's so important toshare with our audience for new
professionals, but alsoprofessionals that are, you
know, been in the field for along time that are trying to, or
thinking about consideringchanging their career a little
bit and doing somethingdifferent.
And I think private practice isone of those many opportunities
that A C R C has.
We see a lot of, um, commentscoming through C R C C.
(28:00):
How do you start your ownprivate practice?
What do you, what is, what isprivate practice?
And do you need to have yourlicense to be a private
practitioner?
And that's not always, we alwayssay, no, you need your C R C
first, and then you can go andget your L P C if that's what's
needed.
But not every state requires it.
So, um, how do you advocate forthe C R C knowing this
(28:22):
credential is not a requiredcredential right now?
Um, in many practice settings,we're starting to see some
government agencies like, uh,social Security and Veterans
Health Administration nowrequire the CRC, right?
We're very proud of that.
And we hope to see down the roadmore employers start requiring
that.
We hear from CRCs that theiremployers don't recognize the
(28:44):
credential and therefore theydon't see the value.
What would you say to those whochallenge the value of the
credential?
Dr. Kate Klein (28:50):
Oh, uh, I would say if you, if you challenge the
value of the credential, show mea professional working, you
know, serving people withdisabilities and somebody with
the credential and without thecredential, and, um, I'll just
observe them.
Okay, that's all I need.
I don't need to see, you know,case notes or I, let me see how
they engage in a staff meeting.
(29:10):
Let me see how they engage withtheir peers and their
colleagues.
Let me see how they engage in,you know, new, uh, policies and
legislation that are passed andnew, new, um, you know, like
post pandemic.
We ha you know, the ADArecognizes long haul or covid,
um, symptoms as a disabilityand, and that that's something
(29:30):
that we need to serve ourclients on.
But I see time and time again,a, a tremendous difference in
the level of professionalismbetween the two, um, uh,
individuals that I justmentioned.
I witnessed it myself as astudent when I was doing my
internship.
I knew very early on the, thedesignation, the, the
professionalization of thecertification.
(29:51):
There were different levels ofbasically investment in their
own profession, in theircareers.
And, um, I just could see it inlike, I just, I have, I've
probably said this to youbefore, Pam, but when you've
asked me this, but I canremember being in, uh, meetings
and seeing people, like in staffmeetings, like playing Sudoku or
(30:13):
, um, just kind of checked outlike, this, this information is
not, doesn't pertain to me orI'm just interested in it.
And I noticed early on as astudent, this sounds silly, but
I'm being honest when I saylike, it was a stark contrast
between those that have gone onto get professionalized and
those, those that didn't.
(30:34):
And then I saw people with thecertification get promoted Yeah.
In the agency and move up andhave opportunity.
And of course, as like a, a 22year old, like, that's, that's
where I'm looking.
That's what I wanna do.
I wanna see what doors will openfor me.
Um, so I, I saw that very earlyon, but what I do, are you also
asking me how do I advocate forit in the, in the field?
(30:56):
Yes.
Okay.
Um, again, I'm very authentic.
So I say depends on who myaudience is, but I'll tell my
students kind of what I justtold you, which is that like
I've seen people, I've witnessedpeople, my own students actually
, uh, successfully negotiate forraises in promotions and
leadership opportunities becausethey're professionalized,
because they have thecredential, because they do all
(31:18):
the things.
And I help them talk about howthey, how they market
themselves.
I think that's incrediblyimportant that we talk to
students about personal brandingand all my students create
electronic portfolios.
They talk about the scope ofpractice of rehabilitation
counseling.
They talk about their credentialand I coach them on how to, you
know, basically create a scriptabout, they're going to go into
(31:41):
a meeting with their employer touse the credential to negotiate
for, uh, more, uh,responsibilities.
Uh, that also comes with ITcompensation, um, that matches
with it.
A lot of students are receptiveto that, um, about how we can
always, you know, marketourselves.
So like later today at myprogram, we have a, we have a,
(32:02):
an advisory board meeting.
So we've got people coming infrom the va, from vr, from
nonprofits in, in St.
Louis.
And I have spent a lot of timeduring the pandemic talking to
these agencies and saying,listen, you know, we have the,
the credential that's, you know,that, that you're not currently
(32:22):
requiring, but you know, that itsets the, again, they, they
recognize the leadership inthose agencies recognizes the
value of the credential.
And, um, cuz they often have itthemselves, and they're the ones
that I'm pleading to becausethey advocate to their hires up
about, i, I talk, talk aboutsalary in these industries, how
much they're going to be able topay.
(32:44):
I, I basically talk about itfrom the, okay, my students are
the commodity and I am theagent, so to speak.
So I'm like, Hey, listen, if youwant my students, you need to be
competitive because my students,I'm preparing students that are
trained to provide top notservices and they're, they're
competent because they'll cometo you credentials and if you
(33:05):
want them, you need to do yourpart to attract them.
Uh, there are all sorts ofagencies locally that are
offering now, um, uh, likesignon fees.
Uh, I've never seen that beforemy entire career.
So I'm getting, I mean, I havestudents that paid internships,
they're getting offered sign-onfees, it's highly competitive.
They're, they're commodities arehot commodities now.
(33:27):
So, and I'm training them to beprofessionalized and proud and
strong in their professionalidentity.
And so I want these agencies tocompete for them.
And part of that is meeting usto where we also are finding
value, not just monetarily, butaccepting and acknowledging that
(33:48):
somebody else is gonna want thembecause of everything that they
have those credentials and theircompetency and they're, they're
paying more and they're offeringsign-on bonuses.
And I am biased.
I, I'd love my students to gointo the public sector and serve
, um, in the public sector.
And so that's kind of who Ispeak to.
I let my colleagues in VR know,like, this is what they stand up
(34:09):
against.
Yeah, you want, you want mystudents that are certified, you
know, across town, they'regetting 10,$10,000 sign-on
bonuses.
Let's talk to, um, you know,central office about ways that
you can attract and retain newprofessionals that, you know,
can stand to be with you formany years to come, essentially.
So it depends on who my audienceis.
(34:31):
I like, again, I probably soundsweird, but I do think about
myself as an agent to helpfacilitate this relationship.
And I talk about my students,um, from that marketing
perspective and what they can dofor my students.
Pam Shlemon (34:43):
I'm just gonna say, you walk the talk, do you
wear it on your sleeve?
Either passion and as I said inthe very beginning, the passion
and dedication you bring to thisfield.
I mean, I could sit and talk toyou for hours about the field.
I just, it's, you're soinspiring in so many ways.
Yeah.
A lot of people discussrehabilitation counseling as
they're calling, or a pathwaythat they felt compelled to
(35:04):
follow, as you said, at the topof the hour that indicates
purpose.
What elements of the job havebrought you joy?
Dr. Kate Klein (35:12):
Oh man, Pam, these are all very nostalgic
questions.
I'm thinking about my parentsagain and how I was raised.
Um, you know, my parents did alot of, um, I did a lot of
volunteering, um, as a kid.
So my parents, um, I was raisedin a, I don't think we were like
overly religious, but like,yeah, there, my, I come from a
faith-based family and so I grewup in a church and we did a lot
(35:35):
of community work in our townand there were a lot of refugee
work that we did.
So I was exposed to, to servingothers from a, from an early
age.
I played a lot of sports atchurch, um, with people with a
variety of resources andbackgrounds.
And so I always knew that, um,you know, Elise was a kid in
(35:56):
those scenarios that I, that Iwas put in, I was, I always knew
that, um, I was fortunate andthat there were other people
that I could help or that didn'thave as much as I did.
And so I think that that'ssomething that kind of, again,
helped shape my personality andmy calling to use, to use your
term.
I, I had a lot of fun incollege.
I'll just say that.
Um, but who hasn't, right,exactly.
(36:18):
, right?
I can remember, um, I worked atBest Buy in college for a little
while cuz I also liked music,um, which goes hand in hand with
fun, right?
Right.
So we're, we're all, we're onbrand there.
I can remember the leaving workand being like, and this is
silly, but like, I can rememberthinking like, I didn't, like
make any difference today.
(36:39):
I didn't like I could haveskipped today and it wouldn't
have mattered, um, likesubstantially in, in, in my
impact, um, so to speak.
And I remember thinking thatthat was probably too, I was
probably being too hard onmyself or weird, or I should
just, you know, hurry up and getto class or whatever.
But, um, I remember I knew thenthat like a value of mine that I
(37:03):
was gonna need to seek out to befulfilled was one in which I was
helping people probably mostdays.
Um, now I find myself, you know,perpetually giving to others at
this point in my career, andit's, and it's wonderful.
Um, we have to protect ourselvesfrom burnout of course, but Sure
.
Um, I just came from a familywhere those values were taught.
(37:24):
It was something that was kindof ingrained in me.
And it's something that, youknow, I introduce myself in the
first day of class, um, as acounselor, but mainly as a
servant.
I do feel like I'm here to servethem, to give to them.
It makes me, actually, I'm gonnatie this back into Dr.
Lehe, the first day of mydoctoral program.
(37:45):
He talked about how we arestewards of this discipline and
he had us process that statementand what it meant.
Ironically, as I sit here, youknow, I'm, I'm, I've been in
academia, um, you know, I'm atenure professor now.
I've been here for 10 years.
I start my classes off withouteven making that direct
connection until just now.
But like, I tell them how I'm aservant and, um, and what that
(38:07):
means for me and the differentways that I do serve.
So
Pam Shlemon (38:11):
Thank you so much for your time today.
Our discussions were inspiringand I hope our audience enjoys,
uh, the time that we've spentwith you.
And I look forward to furtherdiscussions and always thank you
for your support and the servicethat you do.
Thanks again to Dr.
Kate Klein for an inspiringconversation.
(38:31):
We're always happy to hear fromour listeners about questions
that come up while listening tothe show.
If you have any s or insights ontopics covered in this episode,
let us know by emailing us atcontact us@crccertification.com.
Be sure to subscribe to the showon Apple Podcast, Spotify, or
wherever you are listening to ustoday.
You can find us on Facebook,Twitter, and LinkedIn at CRC
(38:55):
Cert and our website is crccertification.com.
Until next time, I'm CRCC'sexecutive director, Pam Shlemon.
(39:01):
.
Thank you for listening toInside Rehabilitation
Counseling.
Hello, and welcome to Inside Rehabilitation
Counseling, presented by theCommission on Rehabilitation
Counselor Certification.
I'm Pam Schlemon, executivedirector of CRCC, and we're so
glad to have you here foranother conversation on the art
and science of rehabilitationcounseling.
The field of rehabilitationcounseling was legislated into
existence over 100 years ago.
As you can imagine, someelements of the profession have
(00:27):
changed quite a bit since itsinception.
A few of those changes,including virtual services and
competitive hiring practices areever evolving, making it crucial
for CRCs to keep up with thelatest trends and employment
practices.
Dr.
Kate Klein, our guest for thisepisode, truly walks the talk
when it comes to keeping up withwhat's happening in the field.
You'll hear Dr.
Klein talk about everything fromwhat drives her to advocate for
(00:49):
CRCs with her students, as wellas why she chooses to stay
active in private practice.
In addition to being aneducator, she shares insights on
new evolutions in the field thatare driving interests in CRCs
across all practice settingsfrom state VR to online
counseling platforms.
Please enjoy our conversationwith Dr.
Kate Klein.
Well, welcome Kate.
It's a real pleasure to have youon inside Rehabilitation
(01:11):
Counseling podcast.
So today we're just gonna diveinto your career a little bit
and, um, talk about yourcredential and the impact that
the credential has, but the workyou've been doing.
And I just wanna start off bysaying that I've had the
pleasure of working with youover the last three years as a
board member and as a member ofthe standards and exam committee
and your passion and dedicationis so present.
(01:34):
Um, where does that come from?
Dr. Kate Klein (01:35):
Oh, gosh, that's a great question.
Um, I think some of it's taught,um, I was raised by a pretty
strong, uh, independent woman,so to speak, but I, a lot of
it's my personality.
I just, uh, I'm very authentic.
So if I feel a certain way orsomething feels, uh, if I, I
tend sometimes to have strongopinions in a room or, or maybe
(01:56):
sometimes if people are alltalking about this one thing, I
always find myself talking aboutthe other thing.
And, uh, you know, share thatperspective from a place of
respect, certainly.
But I always think it leads toreally good discussion and
conversation and, um, especiallywhen we, when we, um, are
serving, uh, vulnerablepopulations and we have to be
(02:18):
advocates, I think it's a reallygood skill to have to be
outspoken and, um, independentthinking.
And, um, that's how we getthings done.
Pam Shlemon (02:27):
Tell me a little bit about how you got into the
field of rehabilitationcounseling.
What drew you to the work?
Dr. Kate Klein (02:33):
Well, I, I think I'm probably like a lot of other
professionals in our field, andthat I didn't, I didn't know
about this field existing, and Ijust did a lot of due diligence
and had a lot of luck along theway.
So whenever I talk to peopleabout our field, I always ask in
, in a student capacity, Ialways, the first question I ask
is, raise your hand if when youwere a kid you wanted to be a
(02:55):
veterinarian or work withanimals.
And undoubtedly like 50 to 75%of the room, shoots up their
hand.
Um, and I think that that'scommon.
Like we have a lot of similarcharacteristics with other
servant occupations and peoplewho have a genuine desire to be
the change that they see intheir communities and do good
(03:18):
for others.
And the animal connection is,again, uh, serving and helping
those without a voice.
And I think that sometimesthere's a lot of parallels to
serving the disabilitycommunity.
Um, so long story short, I, Iwas pursuing becoming a
veterinarian with the support ofmy parents as like a kid.
And then I didn't realize thatpart of serving animals was, was
(03:41):
at times euthanasia.
And, uh, that's above my paygrade.
Like that's, I, that's not,that's not a, uh, direction that
I think I could, I'd be in thefetal position, let's just say
that quite a bit.
Um, that would be tough for me.
So I talked to my parents.
I was like, I don't think thatthis is a direction that I'm
comfortable pursuing.
And they talked to me about whyI wanted to be, you know, help
(04:06):
animals and what other placesmight, um, serve in similar
ways.
And we talked about education.
Ironically, I never thought I'dbe an educator, and we talked
about counseling and psychology.
And so I, I was most familiarwith, or most interested, I
guess, in like, uh, psychology.
So I went on to college and Imajored in psychology.
(04:27):
And, um, I started, uh, I wasvery, um, intentional about
wanting to work in the field inan entry level capacity.
And that's how I met what Ireferred to as like my career
mentor.
Um, he was a neuropsychologist,his name is, is Ed Cook.
And, um, he worked withindividuals with TBIs, and he
(04:48):
had a master's degree inrehabilitation counseling from
Michigan State.
And that's how I found out aboutthe field.
I, I ended up working forsomebody who served individuals
with traumatic brain injuriesand strokes.
I watched him assist them in therehabilitation.
I watched him connect them withthe community and be an advocate
and, and a resource for thecommunity.
(05:09):
And, um, it was a no-brainer forme how much change I saw him,
um, facilitate in these folks'lives.
I knew I wanted to be a part ofit.
Uh, immediately it was, it was,um, intoxicating, almost just,
uh, just being around thatenergy.
And so, so that's how I, I waslike, you know, I'm definitely
(05:31):
gonna apply to this program.
And, um, so yeah, so that's howI got into the field, so to
speak.
When I entered my program and Iintroduced myself on my first
day, I was like, oh, I'm herebecause I'm gonna work with,
with TBI patients.
Um, you know, thanks for coming
And of course, uh, I, as I wentthrough my program, I was
(05:52):
exposed to so many differentthings and, um, it really opened
my eyes.
So, um, it, it's led me in a lotof great
Pam Shlemon (06:00):
Paths.
Gosh, thank you for sharingthat.
I love your entry into thisfield, and like so many that
we've spoken to, it's not adirect pathway.
It really isn't.
But those stories are soinspiring.
This is, uh, career, it's not ajob, right.
Because you're so passionateabout the work you all do.
As you said, you went to bothyour masters in your doctorate
(06:21):
are from Michigan StateUniversity.
Uh, you worked as a graduateresearcher assistant with Dr.
Michael Leahy, a distinguishedprofessor of rehabilitation
counseling.
Well-known professor.
Absolutely.
Um, he since retired.
What does an educationexperience from Dr.
Lehi mean to you, and how hasthat inspired you to prepare for
your career?
Dr. Kate Klein (06:39):
Well, that's a great question and a loaded one.
Of course, working around Dr.
Leahy, just knowing hisreputation in the field and how
much he is respected and howmuch he's done, um, was, you
know, definitely had myattention.
Um, certainly, and I knew it wasa, he was an individual that I
wanted to be around more andlearn from more.
(07:01):
Um, I remember my first docprogram class, um, I don't
recall the name of it, but hefacilitated that course from a,
in, in a way that I, I had neverexperienced as, as a student.
Uh, it was more as doctoralprograms are, it was more of a
discussion and conversation andaround Robin, um, experience.
But he just like held stage fora little bit.
(07:22):
He sat there and he spoke to usabout all the things that he
personally has experienced andbeen involved in.
And you realize that you arearound, you know, you're around
somebody who has helped shapethe history of your discipline,
and it's powerful.
And, uh, the other things that Ijust really appreciated about
Dr.
Leahy is that working with himor being a student of his, uh,
(07:43):
open doors for me that I neverhad anticipated, so specifically
his work in Ireland and working,um, globally on the disability
community, was something Idirectly benefited from.
I also went to Ireland with himand, uh, participated in the
doctorate conference.
That's the first time I had everlike, left the country and had
(08:04):
an experience like that, everseen anything that old, um, the
buildings, the history, but alsogoing from a disability lens and
seeing, in my master's program,I had a, a, a, a peer in that
program that was from Poland.
Um, his name was Joseph, and hewas studying in the United
States because he was anindividual with a disability and
(08:27):
he wanted to learn how to changepolicies back home.
And we had a lot ofconversations about just, um,
infrastructure, um, architectureand what it was like in Poland
versus what he was experiencingthere in East Lansing.
And, uh, the contrast was, Imean, it was, it, it was
interesting hearing that likethey don't have ramps and they
(08:48):
don't necessarily have a lot ofaccessible buildings.
And so it was neat meeting himand hearing that perspective,
and then experiencing it myselfwhen I got to go to Ireland and
recognizing, wow, we have doneso much in our country to, to
serve and, and open doors andprovide access for, for people
with disabilities.
(09:09):
But since we are so advancedcompared to these other
countries, we should be muchfarther along than we are now.
I'm, I'm thinking aboutemployment rates, um, but we
have tools and resources.
We're doing things right.
Why are we not further along inthis, this social issue than we
are right now?
So that was, that wasinteresting.
(09:29):
Um, certainly.
But going back to Dr.
Leahy too, um, he was somebodythat, um, has done a lot of
research regarding, uh, youknow, the role and function
studies of course, and job tasksand working out or reaching out
to professionals in the field tofigure out what their needs
were, what they're seeing, andhow does that inform what we do
as educators.
And of course, thecertification.
(09:51):
So I, it was so easy for me tosee, I'm like, sometimes I feel
like it's hard in, uh, an R oneor a research institution that
the direct connection betweenthe work we're doing and what
the outcomes are and how itdirectly impacts something that
I can see that's tangible.
And it was very abundantly clearfor me with Dr.
(10:11):
Leahy.
So, um, I just, again, remember,that was a powerful experience.
I actually did my dissertation,um, while I was in Michigan.
I worked for MichiganRehabilitation Services as a
transition counselor.
And so I had a, a passion and aheart for serving youth.
And so I was able to talk to Dr.
(10:32):
Lehe and, and have some guidancefrom him about how to, how to
connect to those rehabilitationcounselors that also serve youth
and how, what are their needsand how might their needs differ
from counselors that serveadults or have other caseloads,
and how can I drill down alittle bit those unique needs.
So, um, he was an incrediblementor.
(10:52):
Uh, just, you know, great guyoverall.
I, I, I enjoyed my time with himtremendously.
Pam Shlemon (10:58):
Yeah, he has impacted so many lives.
He just, I don't think he knowsthe extent or what he's done to
this field.
Um, and too bad we can't clonehim.
Yeah.
Obviously C R C C is thecertification organization, and
we, one of our primary roles isto make sure that students are
(11:19):
well prepared to sit for the CRCexam and be successful to work
with individuals withdisabilities.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The, the credential demonstratescompetency and it separates
those that are not competentfrom those that are to work with
individuals with disabilities.
I know you've taught at, you'vetaught at Merrillville in
rehabilitation counseling, and Ihad you sit on a panel to talk
(11:42):
about how do you prepare yourstudents, um, not just to sit
for the CRC exam, but how do youprepare them to go out into the
world and be successful.
But obviously the most importantthing is to sit for that C R C
exam, to get that ultimatecertification based on the
outcomes that we have seen fromyour program.
Tell the audience a little bitabout what are your driving
(12:02):
motivators to prepare yourstudents, and how are you
successful?
How do you think that c r C hasbenefited you from preparing
your students?
Anybody
Dr. Kate Klein (12:11):
That's listening right now, if you are an
educator, um, and there's anopportunity for you to serve
CRCC specifically on thestandards and exams committee
underneath the, the leadershipof Janine, um, I highly
recommend it.
It is an invaluable experiencefor your students.
Your service on this committeewill directly benefit your
(12:33):
institution, your program, andyour students, because you will
start to understand, uh, pardonmy analogy, but like what's
behind us as curtain?
Like how does this whole thingcome together?
How does it work?
What does it look like?
And, and it kind of demystifiesthis really important milestone
of professionals in our field.
So we need people that areinterested in this and helping
(12:56):
this cause and understanding howit works so that they can go
back to their institutions andinspire and encourage students.
So first and foremost, that'sthe best way to do it as an
educator.
First students, how I help themprepare is I, first of all, I
have the knowledge from servingthat committee about how the
exam is broken down.
Like, you know, that there aretwo forms here.
(13:17):
There's a rehab form in thecounseling form.
What does that look like?
Um, we know a little bit aboutlike areas or content areas
from, well, we know a lot aboutcontent areas from the role and
function study, but we know alittle bit about which areas,
uh, students might struggle withmore.
Um, first time test taker.
So, um, what to be aware of.
Um, yes, you might not loveresearch, but you know, we have
(13:39):
to focus on, basically what Itell my students is you have to
go into every course that you'vetaken and you have to look at
your syllabi.
That's where I start and look atthe main topics that were
covered in that course.
So yes, go back to research, um,go back to case management, of
course, you know, foundationsevery course that you've taken.
Refresh yourself about thetopics that are covered in that
(13:59):
course, especially if it was twoyears ago.
And pull out your notes andyour, your texts to be able to
make sure that you have someunderstanding of that.
So it's really easy for us whenwe take a, an exam at the end of
our program to forget what welearned about in the first
semester.
But when you sit for that exam,those content courses you took
semester one are just asabundantly clear as they were,
(14:21):
you know, as they are today.
So you need to do your duediligence to refresh yourself.
I like to tell students atorientation, so before they even
have taken their first course,they, I encourage students to
take, to basically engage ingood record keeping as a
professional skill, but also torecognize that keeping notes
(14:41):
being organized, um,highlighting the things that
your faculty member and yourtextbook point out as
significant pieces ofinformation so that you can
draw, draw back on that whenyou're studying are really good
best practices to prepareyourself when you get, when you
get ready.
Pam Shlemon (14:57):
I'm gonna shift from the education to another
area of practice setting you areinvolved in.
And you are actually the firstCRC on our podcast.
Not only you're an academia, butalso you own your own private
practice.
Yeah.
Can you share with our audiencehow it came to be that you
started your own privatepractice and share for the new
(15:17):
professionals the work that youdo in your practice?
Dr. Kate Klein (15:20):
Oh my goodness.
I love this question.
I love that you're asking methis.
Um, so I believe that it is veryimportant for, for myself as an
educator to be engaged in thefield, um, to be able to ha be
able to relate to students andwhat they're experiencing and
going through.
So it's possible for me because,you know, I, I basically see,
(15:43):
you know, no more than 10clients a week.
Um, but I, I do that so that I'mstill actively serving.
I'm working, you know, I'mdealing with client issues, with
caseload management, um, youknow, using theories and
interventions, and so I can havethat dialogue with students
because this, this helps me as Iteach clinical courses as well.
(16:03):
It, you know, and I, if I goback to the pandemic, so, um, I
have three little boys.
Um, and when my second son wasborn, I stopped seeing clients.
Um, and I thought, I'm not gonnasee clients until my, my kids
are in school.
And then the pandemic hit, andthen suddenly I'm at home all
the time with my kids, and I amnot having any interaction with
(16:27):
adults, and I'm feeling isolated, um, overwhelmed, burnt out.
I'm craving if you don't knowme, I'm an extrovert and I
thrive.
I get energy from being withpeople.
And so it was a tremendouslyhard time.
I, I know it was hard foreverybody for a lot of reasons,
but I missed, I missed mystudents.
(16:48):
I miss interacting with people.
And so I started seeing clientsagain through telehealth because
it was possible for me as, as aparent, um, as somebody as an
American who's also, you know,like isolated in my house.
And I know that there were somany people that had a need, I
started serving people again andseeing people again.
Um, it was such a, a gift for meto be able to like, talk to
(17:12):
people.
Um, and of course, uh, they'retalking about what's going on in
their world and how they'recoping, but it was tremendously
healing for me as well.
Um, I, I'm so thankful that ourfield has, has made this shift
and that there is pos it is, uh,possible to serve folks.
Um, so, so I still see clients,I see them all virtually because
(17:35):
of this.
And I like telehealth because itdoes increase access.
Mm-hmm.
So traditionally, if I wouldhave somebody who, who could not
make it to my office or whocould not see me due to active
symptomology or transportationissues, that that barrier is
gone.
Um, I can all somebody, peopledon't even need a laptop.
(17:55):
A lot of clients can access methrough their cell phones.
And, um, so I can, I can workwith people in a variety of
different, um, needs that theymight have.
I always tell my students how,um, in a, um, a rehabilitation
counseling program, we, we talkabout serving people with
disabilities, we talk about theemployment aspect, of course,
but we also know that a lot ofstudents have a desire to serve,
(18:19):
obviously clients with, withdifferent needs and abilities,
but not always the vocationalroute.
Mm-hmm.
I totally get that.
I try not to tell them, like,just, just wait and see what
happens as you take your classesand go through the program.
But, um, I remind them that,and, and when they get to
clinical courses that there isnot a single client that I
(18:39):
serve, and I promise, I'll tellyou what I tell them.
I don't, I don't facilitate and,and guide the conversations and
sessions my clients do.
But there is not a single clientthat I serve that doesn't talk
about their job.
Every single client talks aboutwork, they talk about job
satisfaction, they talk aboutcompensation, they talk about
work life balance, they talkabout burnout.
(19:00):
It is, it is pervasive becauseour work is our identity, right?
And so anybody who is, is in thefield right now, or preparing to
be in the field that wants toconsider, you know, clinical
mental health, or they're justgoing the clinical route, um,
these courses that are abundantin the rehabilitation counseling
program, the career development,the job placement, the medical
(19:23):
aspects, all of that comes up inprivate practice settings.
And you will be better preparedto have those discussions and
help clients advocate forthemselves, um, advocate for
fair wages.
Um, that's been a, a reallyinteresting conversation I've
been having with clientsthroughout the pandemic because,
you know, folks have beengetting laid off.
(19:43):
They've been looking for,they've been making career
shifts, they've been movingremote.
And there's also, um, you know,in, in many different fields, a
high demand for skilled workers.
And so how do we advocate forourselves?
How do we have our needs met?
Um, how do we ask for raises?
(20:04):
How do we research what a goingrate is?
And, and how do we prepare thoseconversations with, uh, with HR
or, or our employers so that we,we feel empowered at work and
not powerless, so to speak.
So I love those discussions.
Pam Shlemon (20:20):
And I think what you just mentioned, two things I
wanna say to comment on what youjust mentioned.
One, for individuals withdisabilities, work is
therapeutic for them.
So it's so important that theyhave meaningful employment.
Two, I think when you talk aboutthe work that you do in private
practice without having yourcrc, you can't do that work.
(20:43):
You're not, that's what setsCRCs apart, that their unique
difference under the counselingumbrella is the disability
portion of it.
The rehabilitation anddisability counseling is
counseling and, and it'simportant for sure, but without
that rehabilitation anddisability, you can't serve
individuals with disabilitiesand do the work that you're
doing.
Dr. Kate Klein (21:00):
Absolutely.
I mean, just, just in the past,um, you know, I, I had several,
I've, I've served severalindividuals that identify as
healthcare workers, that arenurses, that are physicians, um,
that have had terribleexperiences professionally over
the past two years and, youknow, predating the pandemic and
mental health and mental healthdiagnosis and symptoms are only
(21:23):
exacerbated by feelingundervalued and overwhelmed.
Right?
And how do we slow down andfocus on our needs and make sure
that we're safe and secure andbefore we figure out what our
next step is and how do we, weneed somebody to remind us of
our worth and, um, when it seemslike nobody else does.
And so being, being the, the,the person who can walk that
(21:48):
path and help show somebody theway and remind them about their
worth and remind them everythingthat is, you know, that we're
seeing happening around us, and,and, um, how how critical they
are has been, uh, just one ofthe best professional
experiences that, that I canattest to really,
Pam Shlemon (22:08):
I'll say one last thing on this.
We have three pathways that youcan come in to obtain this crc
and obviously it's through, uh,an accredited rehabilitation, a
master's program inrehabilitation or clinical
rehabilitation counseling ornon-accredited.
And then the third way is youhave to have a master's in a
like-minded profession, like P TO T, mental health, similar
(22:30):
profession.
Since I've been with theorganization, that third pathway
has grown tremendously.
Yeah.
And the reason why is becausethey don't have that, that
component of, uh, of thatrehabilitation and disability.
So when we talk to individuals,why are you coming in?
They still have to meet therequirements and they have to
get all the, the courses for,uh, rehabilitation and
(22:51):
disability, cuz they alreadyhave the counseling pieces.
Most of the time it is becausethey're working with so many, so
many of their clients have someform of disability and they
don't feel competent enough to,to work with them.
Yeah.
So I just wanted to share that.
I'm gonna go back to yourprivate practice.
How did you know how to startyour own private practice?
Dr. Kate Klein (23:11):
Oh, that, you know, this goes back to the
first question you asked me,where I responded, where a lot
of it's my personality andsometimes I'm a dog with a bone
Um, so I, um, I had to figure itout quite a bit, um, myself.
So what I did was, and you know,a lot of the, um, advice I give
students and to some extentclients, it's stuff that's
(23:33):
happened to me.
I mean, I remember, so when Imoved to Missouri, um, I,
somebody reached out, somebodyfound me.
I was not looking for, you know,a private practice experience.
Somebody found me and called meat my office on campus one day
and said, Hey, um, you're an L PC and a crc and I need somebody
in my office to serve clients.
(23:54):
We don't have enough cliniciansto meet the need here.
Have you gotten your license inMissouri yet?
And I'm like, well, wow.
Um, you know, this is, this issomething that's unexpected.
I'm not, I wasn't anticipatingthis.
And I said, um, I'm, I'm workingon this, but like, let's meet.
And, um, you know, lo and behold, um, I was actually, I was
expecting my first child at thetime.
(24:17):
Um, and it was early on in thepregnancy.
And so this actually goes backto employment law.
And, um, you know, I had to havethis experience where, when do I
disclose, I know that thisperson wants me to work for them
or start serving their clients,but when do I disclose?
And, and, and, um, so that wasan, an interesting experience.
And ultimately, and I have a lotof experience talking to people
(24:38):
about their rights withdisclosure and rare, I've never
been in the situation myself.
So, um, um, I, I talked tostudents about this all the time
too, but I work for this woman,um, uh, and started seeing
clients, um, after my firstchild was born and I went on, on
maternity leave and whatnot.
Um, and I, and so she kind oftaught me the way about how to
(24:59):
serve, uh, in a, in a privatepractice setting.
But as you will realize, um,when you working in an
association, there areadministrative fees taken off of
whatever you're, you're earning.
So you're earning the, uh, uh,the practice money and your take
home is, you know, a, a smallerfraction of that.
And I, of course, I was like,Hmm, well this is interesting.
(25:22):
Um, I am qualified, trained,competent.
Why am I letting somebody takethis massive proportion of what
I've worked so hard for and whatany CRC has worked hard for?
And so I went off on my own andI figured out how to do it
myself.
And, um, because again, like Iwould tell a client, like, I, I
(25:47):
think that you should, youshould earn what you think
you're worth, and you shouldwork to make that happen
regardless of the situation youfind yourself in.
There's a lot of satisfaction injust have, even if I see five
people a week, I enjoy havingcontrol over my schedule and,
and meeting their needs.
I feel like I'm like, you know,I'm serving them and the way
that they need to be served.
(26:07):
I'm able to do it on my termsnow on somebody else's terms.
And I love that.
So during the pandemic, um, Istarted working for Better Help
and Talk space because I knewthat my students were gonna be
interested in this because theseplatforms are massive marketing
all over the place, and itramped up during the pandemic.
Like they put a ton of moneyinto marketing to try and get
(26:30):
clients, and then I know ifthey're trying to get clients,
they're gonna try and get mystudents.
And so I wanted to go, I wantedto be a Guinea pig and tell my
students, what's this all about?
And really it's more of the sameof what I experienced, which is,
is they're gonna take you your,your credentials, your
competency, your knowledge, andthey're gonna profit off of it.
Um, I mean, that's my very jadedopinion.
(26:52):
Yeah.
I think it's a wonderfulexperience to have for, for new
professionals to build acaseload and manage a caseload.
And yes, you could earn a livingoff of it.
You'd have to, you know, itwould be a full day Monday
through Friday, you'd probablyhave to see like eight clients,
which is typical for, for aprofessional and in, in a
private practice setting.
And there are so many people onthose platforms that have
(27:14):
disabilities that need help andthat are struggling.
So like, it is definitely aplace to go to serve, um, to
serve clients and, and utilizeour, our credentials.
But as somebody gets experiencedwith that and comfortable, um, I
think it's, you know, Iencourage people to, to
consider, you know, having theirown shingles, so to speak.
Pam Shlemon (27:37):
Thank you.
I think that's so important toshare with our audience for new
professionals, but alsoprofessionals that are, you
know, been in the field for along time that are trying to, or
thinking about consideringchanging their career a little
bit and doing somethingdifferent.
And I think private practice isone of those many opportunities
that A C R C has.
We see a lot of, um, commentscoming through C R C C.
(28:00):
How do you start your ownprivate practice?
What do you, what is, what isprivate practice?
And do you need to have yourlicense to be a private
practitioner?
And that's not always, we alwayssay, no, you need your C R C
first, and then you can go andget your L P C if that's what's
needed.
But not every state requires it.
So, um, how do you advocate forthe C R C knowing this
(28:22):
credential is not a requiredcredential right now?
Um, in many practice settings,we're starting to see some
government agencies like, uh,social Security and Veterans
Health Administration nowrequire the CRC, right?
We're very proud of that.
And we hope to see down the roadmore employers start requiring
that.
We hear from CRCs that theiremployers don't recognize the
(28:44):
credential and therefore theydon't see the value.
What would you say to those whochallenge the value of the
credential?
Dr. Kate Klein (28:50):
Oh, uh, I would say if you, if you challenge the
value of the credential, show mea professional working, you
know, serving people withdisabilities and somebody with
the credential and without thecredential, and, um, I'll just
observe them.
Okay, that's all I need.
I don't need to see, you know,case notes or I, let me see how
they engage in a staff meeting.
(29:10):
Let me see how they engage withtheir peers and their
colleagues.
Let me see how they engage in,you know, new, uh, policies and
legislation that are passed andnew, new, um, you know, like
post pandemic.
We ha you know, the ADArecognizes long haul or covid,
um, symptoms as a disabilityand, and that that's something
(29:30):
that we need to serve ourclients on.
But I see time and time again,a, a tremendous difference in
the level of professionalismbetween the two, um, uh,
individuals that I justmentioned.
I witnessed it myself as astudent when I was doing my
internship.
I knew very early on the, thedesignation, the, the
professionalization of thecertification.
(29:51):
There were different levels ofbasically investment in their
own profession, in theircareers.
And, um, I just could see it inlike, I just, I have, I've
probably said this to youbefore, Pam, but when you've
asked me this, but I canremember being in, uh, meetings
and seeing people, like in staffmeetings, like playing Sudoku or
(30:13):
, um, just kind of checked outlike, this, this information is
not, doesn't pertain to me orI'm just interested in it.
And I noticed early on as astudent, this sounds silly, but
I'm being honest when I saylike, it was a stark contrast
between those that have gone onto get professionalized and
those, those that didn't.
(30:34):
And then I saw people with thecertification get promoted Yeah.
In the agency and move up andhave opportunity.
And of course, as like a, a 22year old, like, that's, that's
where I'm looking.
That's what I wanna do.
I wanna see what doors will openfor me.
Um, so I, I saw that very earlyon, but what I do, are you also
asking me how do I advocate forit in the, in the field?
(30:56):
Yes.
Okay.
Um, again, I'm very authentic.
So I say depends on who myaudience is, but I'll tell my
students kind of what I justtold you, which is that like
I've seen people, I've witnessedpeople, my own students actually
, uh, successfully negotiate forraises in promotions and
leadership opportunities becausethey're professionalized,
because they have thecredential, because they do all
(31:18):
the things.
And I help them talk about howthey, how they market
themselves.
I think that's incrediblyimportant that we talk to
students about personal brandingand all my students create
electronic portfolios.
They talk about the scope ofpractice of rehabilitation
counseling.
They talk about their credentialand I coach them on how to, you
know, basically create a scriptabout, they're going to go into
(31:41):
a meeting with their employer touse the credential to negotiate
for, uh, more, uh,responsibilities.
Uh, that also comes with ITcompensation, um, that matches
with it.
A lot of students are receptiveto that, um, about how we can
always, you know, marketourselves.
So like later today at myprogram, we have a, we have a,
(32:02):
an advisory board meeting.
So we've got people coming infrom the va, from vr, from
nonprofits in, in St.
Louis.
And I have spent a lot of timeduring the pandemic talking to
these agencies and saying,listen, you know, we have the,
the credential that's, you know,that, that you're not currently
(32:22):
requiring, but you know, that itsets the, again, they, they
recognize the leadership inthose agencies recognizes the
value of the credential.
And, um, cuz they often have itthemselves, and they're the ones
that I'm pleading to becausethey advocate to their hires up
about, i, I talk, talk aboutsalary in these industries, how
much they're going to be able topay.
(32:44):
I, I basically talk about itfrom the, okay, my students are
the commodity and I am theagent, so to speak.
So I'm like, Hey, listen, if youwant my students, you need to be
competitive because my students,I'm preparing students that are
trained to provide top notservices and they're, they're
competent because they'll cometo you credentials and if you
(33:05):
want them, you need to do yourpart to attract them.
Uh, there are all sorts ofagencies locally that are
offering now, um, uh, likesignon fees.
Uh, I've never seen that beforemy entire career.
So I'm getting, I mean, I havestudents that paid internships,
they're getting offered sign-onfees, it's highly competitive.
They're, they're commodities arehot commodities now.
(33:27):
So, and I'm training them to beprofessionalized and proud and
strong in their professionalidentity.
And so I want these agencies tocompete for them.
And part of that is meeting usto where we also are finding
value, not just monetarily, butaccepting and acknowledging that
(33:48):
somebody else is gonna want thembecause of everything that they
have those credentials and theircompetency and they're, they're
paying more and they're offeringsign-on bonuses.
And I am biased.
I, I'd love my students to gointo the public sector and serve
, um, in the public sector.
And so that's kind of who Ispeak to.
I let my colleagues in VR know,like, this is what they stand up
(34:09):
against.
Yeah, you want, you want mystudents that are certified, you
know, across town, they'regetting 10,$10,000 sign-on
bonuses.
Let's talk to, um, you know,central office about ways that
you can attract and retain newprofessionals that, you know,
can stand to be with you formany years to come, essentially.
So it depends on who my audienceis.
(34:31):
I like, again, I probably soundsweird, but I do think about
myself as an agent to helpfacilitate this relationship.
And I talk about my students,um, from that marketing
perspective and what they can dofor my students.
Pam Shlemon (34:43):
I'm just gonna say, you walk the talk
wear it on your sleeve?
Either passion and as I said inthe very beginning, the passion
and dedication you bring to thisfield.
I mean, I could sit and talk toyou for hours about the field.
I just, it's, you're soinspiring in so many ways.
Yeah.
A lot of people discussrehabilitation counseling as
they're calling, or a pathwaythat they felt compelled to
(35:04):
follow, as you said, at the topof the hour that indicates
purpose.
What elements of the job havebrought you joy?
Dr. Kate Klein (35:12):
Oh man, Pam, these are all very nostalgic
questions.
I'm thinking about my parentsagain and how I was raised.
Um, you know, my parents did alot of, um, I did a lot of
volunteering, um, as a kid.
So my parents, um, I was raisedin a, I don't think we were like
overly religious, but like,yeah, there, my, I come from a
faith-based family and so I grewup in a church and we did a lot
(35:35):
of community work in our townand there were a lot of refugee
work that we did.
So I was exposed to, to servingothers from a, from an early
age.
I played a lot of sports atchurch, um, with people with a
variety of resources andbackgrounds.
And so I always knew that, um,you know, Elise was a kid in
(35:56):
those scenarios that I, that Iwas put in, I was, I always knew
that, um, I was fortunate andthat there were other people
that I could help or that didn'thave as much as I did.
And so I think that that'ssomething that kind of, again,
helped shape my personality andmy calling to use, to use your
term.
I, I had a lot of fun incollege.
I'll just say that.
Um, but who hasn't, right,exactly.
(36:18):
I can remember, um, I worked atBest Buy in college for a little
while cuz I also liked music,um, which goes hand in hand with
fun, right?
Right.
So we're, we're all, we're onbrand there.
I can remember the leaving workand being like, and this is
silly, but like, I can rememberthinking like, I didn't, like
make any difference today.
(36:39):
I didn't like I could haveskipped today and it wouldn't
have mattered, um, likesubstantially in, in, in my
impact, um, so to speak.
And I remember thinking thatthat was probably too, I was
probably being too hard onmyself or weird, or I should
just, you know, hurry up and getto class or whatever.
But, um, I remember I knew thenthat like a value of mine that I
(37:03):
was gonna need to seek out to befulfilled was one in which I was
helping people probably mostdays.
Um, now I find myself, you know,perpetually giving to others at
this point in my career, andit's, and it's wonderful.
Um, we have to protect ourselvesfrom burnout of course, but Sure
.
Um, I just came from a familywhere those values were taught.
(37:24):
It was something that was kindof ingrained in me.
And it's something that, youknow, I introduce myself in the
first day of class, um, as acounselor, but mainly as a
servant.
I do feel like I'm here to servethem, to give to them.
It makes me, actually, I'm gonnatie this back into Dr.
Lehe, the first day of mydoctoral program.
(37:45):
He talked about how we arestewards of this discipline and
he had us process that statementand what it meant.
Ironically, as I sit here, youknow, I'm, I'm, I've been in
academia, um, you know, I'm atenure professor now.
I've been here for 10 years.
I start my classes off withouteven making that direct
connection until just now.
But like, I tell them how I'm aservant and, um, and what that
(38:07):
means for me and the differentways that I do serve.
So
Pam Shlemon (38:11):
Thank you so much for your time today.
Our discussions were inspiringand I hope our audience enjoys,
uh, the time that we've spentwith you.
And I look forward to furtherdiscussions and always thank you
for your support and the servicethat you do.
Thanks again to Dr.
Kate Klein for an inspiringconversation.
(38:31):
We're always happy to hear fromour listeners about questions
that come up while listening tothe show.
If you have any s or insights ontopics covered in this episode,
let us know by emailing us atcontact us@crccertification.com.
Be sure to subscribe to the showon Apple Podcast, Spotify, or
wherever you are listening to ustoday.
You can find us on Facebook,Twitter, and LinkedIn at CRC
(38:55):
Cert and our website is crccertification.com.
Until next time, I'm CRCC'sexecutive director, Pam Shlemon.
(39:01):
.
Thank you for listening toInside Rehabilitation
Counseling.
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