Careers in Private Rehabilitation Counseling with Dr. Aaron Mertes, CRC, PCLC

Certified Rehabilitation Counselors can explore a wide variety of job settings thanks to their credential. With many options and areas of focus available to them, CRCs can find themselves stuck while considering where they want their career to take them. The most common question we hear from CRCs is how do I navigate my options in private practice? 

Dr. Aaron Mertes is a CRC and professor at the University of Montana Billings. On the next episode of Inside Rehabilitation Counseling, hear about Dr. Mertes' career, and learn about why he recently wrote and self-published a book on career paths, options, and opportunities in private rehabilitation counseling. 

You can purchase Dr. Mertes' book here: https://aaronmertes.com/

Episode Transcript

Pam Shlemon (00:04):
Hello and welcome to Inside Rehabilitation
Counseling, presented by theCommission on Rehabilitation
Counselor Certification. I'mPam Schleman, executive
director of CRCC, and we're soglad to have you here for
another conversation on the artand science of rehabilitation
counseling. Certifiedcounselors can explore a wide
variety of job settings thanksto their CRC credential. With

(00:25):
many options and areas of focusavailable to them, CRCs can
find themselves stuck whileconsidering where they want
their career to take them. Themost common question we hear
from CRCs is, how do I navigatemy options in private practice?
Dr. Aaron Tez is a CRC andprofessor at the University of
Montana Billings. He recentlywrote, and self-published a

(00:46):
book on career paths, optionsand opportunities in private
rehabilitation counseling. Thisconversation is a must listen
if you have an interest inprivate practice. Aaron shares
a lot of great insight intoapproaching this area of the
profession as well as his viewson where rehabilitation
counseling is heading in thefuture. We hope you enjoyed
this conversation with Dr.
Aaron Marez . Good afternoonand hello Aaron . I'm so glad

(01:09):
to have you as our guest onInside Rehabilitation
Counseling. We've known eachother for a few years now, and
we've had some multi-layeredconversations over the years
about the profession ofrehabilitation counseling, and
I've always felt you've hadyour hand on the pulse of what
folks in our profession,whether it be a student , an
emerging professional, or folksthat have been in the field ,

(01:30):
um, you've always had yourpulse on what they're really
looking for in terms of theircareer and their profession and
just in general, theirprofession as as a whole and
what rehab counseling offers.
There's so many, many, manyopportunities that this
profession offers to folks thatare in, in , in this field.

Dr. Aaron Mertes (01:46):
Happy to be here and I appreciate having
as, as much as I can, beingaccurate about having my finger
on the pulse andgetting it right.

Pam Shlemon (01:53):
That is one of the reasons why I invited you to
join the CRC Strategic TaskForce back in 2022. And since
then, you have, you've writtena book and self-published
careers in privaterehabilitation counseling, a
walkthrough guide to choosingor transferring careers. We're
gonna dive a little bit deeperinto that later on in the
podcast. One of the things thatI would like to start with is,

(02:14):
and we ask , um, those that areCRCs that have been in the
profession, why did you decideto pursue a career in
rehabilitation counseling andwhat drew you to the work?

Dr. Aaron Mertes (02:24):
It was a , it was a pretty a pivotal moment
for me when I was in gradschool. I had a faculty who was
really , uh, advocated for usto be part of the professional
membership and be part of theprofession. And I think it was
maybe my first professionalconference when , uh, I was in
California. And so we were allexcited to get out west. We
live in the Midwest, you know,and , uh, somebody went up ,

(02:45):
uh, our keynote speaker andthere was maybe two, 300
people, something like that.
Maybe 400, I don't rememberexactly, but it was a big room
and it felt like a big space.
And they said how many peoplechose this profession as a
child? And of course, you know,we all wanted to be firemen and
astronauts and ballerinas orwhatever. And then she asked
how many people fell into thisprofession by accident. And of

(03:06):
course, the whole room raisedtheir hands and then looked
around sheepishly at eachother, kind of wondering like,
how does that happen? ?
And my story's really nodifferent. I was , uh, an
undergraduate and somebodysaid, Hey, there's a job at a
group home and the , the workis great. And I was nervous
about it 'cause I didn't knowwhat that meant. Uh, I'll kind
of fast forward through, but Ilove that work. And then went
on to be a job coach and , um,oh , work in a special

(03:30):
education department and a workreadiness coach. Had a
community college. And Istarted to get this perspective
about disability from theeducation to independent living
and , and residential life andthat kind of thing. And so I
didn't have parents that werereally , um, they were
supportive, but didn't reallyknow how to pursue higher
education. I wasn't like afirst gen , but you know,

(03:50):
something like that firstgeneration college student,
that's what that means. Ishouldn't use the lingo. So I
went to grad school, someonesaid, Hey, you can do that for
a career. And I said, what's acareer? And they, you know, one
thing led to another and thatled to doctoral school. And now
, uh, you know, done a fewother things in between, but
here I am. So it was kind of byaccident. I tend to make big
plans and they shift directionor they get messed up somewhere

(04:12):
and I just go where the windblows. And now here I am and
just trying to be useful,impactful , uh, wherever I can
be. And you mentioned keepingmy finger on the pulse is just
trying to be, you know, makewise decisions for myself and
help the people around me. Andthat's kind of the gist of it.
So to answer what drew me tothe work, it, it kind of feels
a little cliche saying this,but it's the people, you know,

(04:33):
the first group home job that Ihad, I was like, these guys
are, they laugh a lot more thansome of the other really
serious people in my life. AndI like that. That feels good
for right now. And then I metsome really competent,
intelligent people and I waslike, wow , I kind of wanna be
like that too. And you buildrole models along the way and
you see people that you wannabe like and , uh, work with and

(04:53):
work for. And I'm just kind ofletting that ride out and I
keep meeting wonderful people.
And the more I do, the more Iwanna be like them and be in
this space. So

Pam Shlemon (05:02):
I find that your story will resonate with so
many people. We've talked to somany people along the way and
their stories, well ,everybody's story is unique how
they got into this profession,as you said, as not like a
little child, I wanna be anurse, I wanna be a
firefighter, I wanna beattorney. They fell into this
profession accidentally, orthey were drawn to it for, and

(05:24):
they've stayed in it becausethey've been drawn into it
because of the people one thatthey're serving, and two from
the professionals around themas well. So I find that that's,
to me, what makes thisprofession so different. I also
think the people in theprofession are one of the most
passionate group of individualsI've ever met. No matter how
challenging the situation is,their passion is never left

(05:46):
them for what they do for the,for the folks that they're
working for. Yeah .

Dr. Aaron Mertes (05:50):
So , you know, one thing we learn when
we're in , I'll put myself, mystudent hat on and we're
talking about careers and somepeople do a job and it's a
necessary economic reality. Andsome people build an identity
and build a life and reallyadhere to the values. I mean,
it's true of a lot of thehelping professions, especially
nurses. Mm-hmm . counselors, doctors, you know,

(06:12):
it , people feel drawn to this.
Pulls out something that's thebest part of me. And this is
one of those places wherepeople feel very passionate.
And we may get into this, wemay not, but sometimes that
works to our disadvantage too,that we love it so much that
we, we, we have a hard time,you know, dealing with changes
and that kind of thing. Butnevertheless, it absolutely

(06:32):
passionate group . And I kindof feel like that same thing.
You know, when, when , uh,changes happen in my life, a
lot of it is directed by how Isee myself professionally
because of that.

Pam Shlemon (06:44):
You became a CRC after earning your master's
degree in rehabilitationcounseling from St . Cloud in
2015, in the almost 10 yearsthat you've held the
credential. How did the CRCshape your career trajectory?
What value did you see the CRCas a young professional
entering the field, and why doyou continue to renew it?

Dr. Aaron Mertes (07:04):
It's a couple answers, really. So when I look
at credentials and particularlycertifications, we'll talk
about those right now. There'sa really practical element to
it. One of 'em is that if I geta certification, it can boost
or enhance my employability soI can get a job and hopefully
either increase my skillset orincrease the money that I can
make with it or something likethat. So, I mean, there's that,

(07:26):
that part of an answer to oflike, why do I continue
renewing it? What draw drew meto it When I was in school, I
had no idea what a credentialwas for and how it worked and
why you get them. I just knewthat like, it looked really
cool to have num letters behindyour name, you know? Uh, now
having had a several of themand having that alphabet soup ,
uh, and getting rid of somecertifications for practical

(07:49):
reasons too, it defines who Iam. We talked about that
identity piece earlier and it'snot, it became like, oh, that
would be cool. And then once Igot it, it was like, but I
wanna keep this because thistells myself and other people
who I am and what kind of workI do. One of the things I like
to share with students , uh,either in writing or in person
, is that when you get acertification, and not only

(08:10):
increase your employability,but it increases your
marketability in terms of howyou represent yourself to other
people, that's really importantas a, as a counselor, because
you may, you may have a degreeand people kind of expect that
you have this master's degreeor bachelor's degree, whatever
that might be. But what kind ofdegree is it that matters? And
then certification andpotentially licensing sometimes

(08:33):
is also just an extension ofit, sort of chisels away at
what's my niche? What's my ,uh, what kind of work do I do?
So I've gotten it, kept it andre and will continue to renew
it because it checks all ofthose boxes for me and it won't
check all the boxes foreveryone. Some people keep it
for, because they have justcome to really value and
appreciate it and meanssomething personal to them,

(08:54):
other people, it's juststrictly a financial decision.
If this can get me a raise atmy job, I'll get it because my
career has led down this pathtowards academia and might
continue to do that in thefuture. May not, who knows? But
it's continued to be apractical thing for
universities require it. Andum, it's important for students
to have it if they wanna mentorfrom somebody who's been

(09:16):
through the process. And , uh,but I think I've already
explained how personal it is tome as well. And I promise not
to tear up a little bit 'causeI've been known to do that, but
I won't do it today, I promise.
Well, I can't promise, but itis, it is , uh, sentimental
value as well as financialvalue. Maybe that's another way
to put it.

Pam Shlemon (09:36):
Many CRCs, including yourself, explore a
wide variety of career pathwaysin the field. Currently, as a
professor of rehabilitation andmental health counseling in
Montana State University inBillings, what do you find is
driving interest in studentspursuing rehabilitation
counseling in the CRC ?

Dr. Aaron Mertes (09:51):
A couple things. Um, we talked a little
bit about how people get intothe profession and I think if
somebody has had that kind ,had had , uh, either disability
experience or has had such acareer that has led them up to
this or has been through , uh,voc rehab process before, when
people get to know that, theysay, oh, but I, I wanna

(10:13):
professionally develop and Iwanna grow my skills. And it's
provides another pathway to dothat. In addition to just
wanting to be professionallydeveloped and to grow more in
their careers. Right now is areally hot time for people
wanting to become mental healthcounselors. And especially
coming outta covid people madeup some career shifts and
reeva, you know , I'm a I'm atthe very early stages of being

(10:35):
a millennial and I identify asone . So work is really
a meaningful thing for me. Andit is for a lot of people too.
And if they're working at a jobthat either they had to leave,
now is an opportunity tochange. And I see a lot of
people coming into thecounseling profession as a
whole saying, this gives me aspace to , uh, do something
important, whatever thatimportant thing is for them. A

(10:56):
lot of people wanna getlicensed and become a
therapist, and they thinkthat's the, the very romantic
vision of what's gonna givethem a better life once they
get into classes or maybe evenbefore that. Maybe it's an
orientation. One of the thingsI like to talk to 'em about is
that , uh, you'll absolutelyhave opportunities to make
career choices here. And if youwanna pursue license or

(11:17):
certification, whatever thatmight be, please do it. 'cause
that's what we're here to helpyou do. But I wanna tell you
about your options, whatdirections you can go and how
that fits with your core valuesand the things that you find
important. So they get allthoughtful about that and
they're like, oh, okay, yeah, Ican do that. That sounds great.
And then they get into a classand I say, okay, one of the
things that we're gonna do iswe're gonna work on not how

(11:40):
you're going to save the worldand help other people, but how
you're gonna help yourself.
Which means we're gonna startby thinking about your career
and how intentional you'rebeing about it. Once we do
that, the students will kind oflook at me quizzically and say
like, like, what does that evenmean? So I, we have these
conversations about, well, howmany people have been affected
by a disability? And they'relike , uh, not me, whatever.

(12:00):
And then , uh, we talk aboutwhat disability is and how it
affects people. And everybodycomes, seems to come to
realize, oh, we all have beentouched by this somehow, and
boy doesn't this matter. 'causeonce you start learning about
benefit systems and theimportance of work and how much
time we spend at work and whatthat does for our mental health
and our physical health and allof those important elements

(12:23):
that we know as rehabcounselors, people start to
say, oh, that's, that's kind ofimportant. I think that
matters. But of course we don'tknow that unless we've been
exposed to it beforehand. Sopeople come in, in short, they
come in with these grandvisions and these romantic
visions, which is a normal partof the career development
process. And then they learn alittle bit of information and
they kind of chisel down atwhat, what their path is going

(12:46):
to be. Here's the challengewith that though . When people
say, that sounds like importantwork for somebody to do, but
I'm not sure if that's work forme. Do you guys hear that kind
of thing?

Pam Shlemon (12:57):
Yes.

Dr. Aaron Mertes (12:58):
So that's where, I mean, we just get into
really practical decisionsabout, well then what's
available in your hometown?
What's available? Uh, do youwanna move? Do you have plans
for the future? How do we fitthis into your life? And what
is gonna be the certification,license, career, job, whatever
the thing is, what's gonna makesense for you? This is what
rehab counselors do with theirclients. This is what I get to

(13:20):
do with the students and wemake really practical decisions
about that. So , um, thequestion you asked is, what's
driving interest is? Yeah .
It's what opportunities existfor people and how that fits in
with who they envisionthemselves to be. So, I mean,
that's kind of the practicalanswer and that's, I learned
about that in textbooks when Iwas in school and now I'm

(13:40):
seeing it with students playout. So it's a little bit of a
question of what is within themand what's out in the community
is available opportunity.

Pam Shlemon (13:48):
And I wonder how many folks teaching these
courses have that same thoughtbecause that is so important.
You have to understand whatthose students are looking for,
right? Mm-Hmm. .
And I think one of the thingsthat we always hear from
students that are entering, andI present to a lot of , uh,
different programs, talking tonew students as an intro to the
credential and what it is andwhy is it important. And we

(14:11):
sometimes hear, oh, I , I , Iwant , I think I'm going down
the track of mental health'cause I want my license. And
I've always said, that's fine.
Mental health is a disability.
And what you get from goingthrough a rehabilitation,
clinical rehabilitationcounseling program or a
rehabilitation counselingprogram is you will get the
unique coursework on adisability and rehabilitation.

(14:33):
And so if you do that mentalhealth check , that's fine, but
you're not gonna get that piece. You're not gonna have that
knowledge base, that expertise,whoop , when it comes time to
working with people withdisabilities. So you can go
down that track. Licensure willalways be there as well. So I
think that sometimes puts someperspective 'cause they don't
see mental health as adisability.

Dr. Aaron Mertes (14:53):
This is maybe neither here nor there, but I
I've read a book recently aboutadverse childhood experiences
and it's a kind of thisemerging topic that a lot of
people know what that wordmeans and kind of have a sense
of it. But adverse childhoodexperiences are when we have
experiences as kids, they leadto both mental and physical

(15:13):
issues. You know, medicalissues that are both mental and
physical. That's one of thethings that I think helps
students make the connectionbetween this is not just an
emotional thing that we do in aroom to make connection, which
that's what counseling is, butwe take into consideration the
medical, physical, socialreality that people live
within. And part of that istheir economic situation and

(15:34):
their community situation andall those pieces we do.
Sometimes we do a really goodjob and sometimes it's lip
service to being really , um,have a wide angle lens at how
much we're seeing in clients ,um, and ourselves and each
other when we're able to stepback and say, oh, but I'm gonna
be a therapist. And I'm usedthat kind of sarcastically.

(15:55):
'cause , it's, it'sfun. And I, I , I love
therapists. I am one sometimes,and it's, it's great and it's
wonderful, but so many of ourclients are going to have
physical conditions, medicalconditions. And one of the
things that I hear fromstudents and even therapists
out in the community is whenthat comes up, I'm able to

(16:15):
focus on the emotional stuff,but I'm not really sure what to
do about all of their medicalreality and the economic
reality and their careers andall that stuff. I do
relationship and I'm, and Isay, good, then here's another
opportunity to , uh, take whatwe know about a , a wide angle
lens, ecological view, if youwanna use an academic word for
it. If , if we take that allthat stuff into consideration,

(16:38):
how can we treat that uniquelyas people having functional
limitations? Mm-Hmm .
. And that's whata disability does for us,
whether it's mental orphysical. So the rehab
philosophy, people understand,right ? Something about after
they get the philosophy iswhere , uh, where some of the
challenges lie.

Pam Shlemon (16:55):
So as I mentioned, you self-published , uh, the
book, and it's , again, I'mgonna repeat the title. It's
called Careers in PrivateRehabilitation Counseling, A
Walkthrough Guide to Choosingor Transforming Careers. What
was your impetus first writingthat book?

Dr. Aaron Mertes (17:08):
Yeah, so when I was in grad school, we, we
learned about state rehab and Iknew about that. And state
rehab plays an extremelyimportant role in the, in the
rehabilitation world becausethe whole profession started
because of legislation thatsaid, Hey, we need a social
program that meets people'sneeds that aren't being met in
the private industry. Like,that's where we came from.
Mm-Hmm. . And Isaid, great. Okay, I know about

(17:30):
that. Wonderful. So what elseis, what else can I do with
this? With my degree, with thecertification, whatever. And in
textbooks and in conversationpeople would say, well, there's
all kinds of like, privatestuff you can do kind of and go
talk to Joe down at so and soand he'll tell you about it.
And then I'd go talk to Joe andhe'd say, oh yeah, you can do
this. And I, I was started topiece together. There was lots

(17:51):
of other opportunities, but Icouldn't figure out exactly
where to find information aboutthat except talking to people.
So when I got to , uh, into mydoctoral work, I found , uh, an
organization that did, it wasfour private rehab counselors
and I just started talking topeople and asking around, what
do you do with therehabilitation counseling

(18:12):
degree? If you have acertification, what's its value
to you? Where does it take you?
What can you get with it? And Ijust was curious about that.
Like what are all of thepossibilities and not just the
usual things, but the personwho's 15 years into their
career and had this for a longtime, the degree of
certification, whatever, andthey've ended up in politics

(18:32):
and you're thinking, how do theheck does that even come out of
counseling and, you know, thisdisability related stuff. Well,
as it turns out, a lot ofimportant political decision
are made about the servicespeople get and it takes an
expert to inform , uh, decisionmakers about how that's going
to impact people. And so as Istarted to explore all this

(18:55):
stuff, I said, okay, I'm gonna,and then I got into teaching, I
said, I'm gonna just write itdown because I was explaining
this to students over and overagain and I said, you guys
don't wanna listen to me allthe time. Just, here's a book.
It's all in writing ,just put it out there so it
can, you know, be availablemore so you don't need me to
talk about it. I thinkthey were getting sick of me
personally, but I'll let themrespond to that . Uh,
so that's kind of why I wroteit. It was, it , it's literally

(19:17):
just a resource for people tosay, what are my options and
what can I do with this? Theother part too is that , um,
academics love textbooks, youknow, and they , they're full
of packed full of information.
They're important, they'rehelpful and they have a really
valuable place. But one of thethings I was looking for is I
wanted some mentorship and Iwanted somebody to kind of hold

(19:38):
my hand and walk me throughwhat are my options. We know
that we like counselors andpeople come to counselors
'cause there's that like,relationship piece. So I tried
to write it in a way that was ,uh, acknowledging that I have
limited experience and this isjust coming from what I've
collected, but I'll help youwalk through this process. And

(19:58):
that was kind of important tome 'cause I wanted it to have a
little bit of a personal feeltoo, so that people felt it was
accessible and, and , um,possible. In

Pam Shlemon (20:06):
Our position here with CRCC, we talked to so many
different individuals. And sowe know that there's , uh,
many, many , uh, opportunitiesfor CRCs to go work various
different practice settings.
State VR is one of the largest,but they have this challenges
and people are leaving Mm-Hmm.
State vr . Andthey're looking to find what

(20:26):
other options are. And one ofthe first things that they come
up with or wanna know about isprivate practice. Mm-Hmm.
. Um , they'revery interested in that line of
work and there's not enoughabout it, so how do they learn
about it? So your book doescertainly help in that regard.
So let's say someone picks upyour book and, and decides if
private practice is right forthem. You walk through how CRCs

(20:47):
can prepare themselves for theposition they eventually want
to have. What work settings orareas of private practice do
you believe will see the mostgrowth in opportunities for
CRCs now and in the distantfuture? Do

Dr. Aaron Mertes (21:01):
I have to pull out my crystal balls to
answer this one? Well ,

Pam Shlemon (21:04):


Dr. Aaron Mertes (21:05):
Maybe , uh, I'll give it a shot. Um , okay.
O other people have writtenabout this too, and so I'm kind
of borrow from some of them.
Uh, and then add a little bitof my own. One of the, the
first ones that comes to mindis elder care . Mm-Hmm.
. We know that I, if we equate disability with
some kind of functionallimitation, I'm kind of
borrowing that language againfrom the Americans with

(21:28):
Disabilities Act. If that's thecase, then we all will be
disabled at some point in ourlife. And with our aging , uh,
mothers and fathers andgrandparents, whatever. I, I
won't get into talking about ,uh, elder care facilities and
what those mean to people. Butpeople have impressions of what
those mean to them and whetherthat's, you know, they're
places they can thrive in.
Counselors in some ways helppeople thrive. And this is, I

(21:52):
think, an opportunity for both,any kind of counselor really to
be in that space, to helppeople as they're aging, to
feel a sense of belonging and,and , uh, growth and
importance. And that's part ofwhat counseling is. It's not
everything, but it's part ofit. So elder care, that's one
area. Another big one is intechnology use. Mm-Hmm .
, uh, andaccessibility for technology,

(22:13):
because every one of usstruggles with technology at
some point in our life, right?
Like, we just went throughcovid and everybody was like,
what is this Zoom thing, , and do I have to do
it? Uh, and we struggle withit, and some parts of it are
not accessible to us. Anddepending on our ability
levels, they , they remaininaccessible. And it's not just
Zoom, it's not , no offenseagainst Zoom or anything, but

(22:35):
it's websites, it's phones,it's all the gadgets and
trinkets . It's all that stuff.
And there's a lot of space androom, I think, and continue,
will continue to be in makingsure that those things are
available to everybody, notjust the target market or
whatever that might be. Sotechnology's another one given
the growth of mental health ,uh, concerns. That's another

(22:58):
area. Yes. A people could, a aperson could go to school and
be a therapist, butunderstanding all the unique
impacts of disability and howthat affects people's mental
health, the psychosocialadjustment process to this new
limitation that I might havebased on a chronic illness or
whatever it might be. Uh, I seea lot of space for , uh, the

(23:19):
expertise, disability knowledgebeing impactful in the mental
health world.

Pam Shlemon (23:23):
I will add to that because we see a lot of folks ,
uh, that have theircertification and their mental
health counselors coming backand getting their CRC because
of exactly what you said.
Mm-Hmm . they'reworking with people with
disabilities and they don'thave that expertise. They don't
have that knowledge and how towork with them. Functional
limitations and all that otherstuff that you're psychosocial,

(23:45):
all that that you're justreferred to, they don't have
that piece. So we do seeseveral folks, that's why when
you, we talk about mentalhealth, it is a disability.
CRCs are equipped to work withthose folks as well.

Dr. Aaron Mertes (23:57):
One of the, one of the things that was very
curious to me when I firststarted teaching was that there
seemed to be this two, the twoways of talking about being a
rehabilitation counselor.
There's the kind that sayswe're a unique thing, we're not
the same. And then anothergroup of people that say we're,
we kind of do that counselingstuff, it's the same thing. And
as professionals we debateabout that. And that's been an

(24:19):
ongoing thing for decades.
Literally decades of like, arewe this, are we that? And
students are like, I don'tcare. I just want a job. You
know? Right. And as they buildthat professional identity,
the, the question continues,and we talk about this
frequently in, in our programat least, of what is the
difference and what does itmean? I wanna be interesting,
but I also wanna talk abouthistory for just a second

(24:40):
because this is kind ofimportant. I just, I was given
a book recently by , uh,somebody I could say a mentor
friend, whatever, somebody Ireally highly respect. And it
was a little bit , uh,groundbreaking for me. Maybe
that's not the right word, butit was important for me. The
book is called BeyondBureaucracy, and it's about a
lady named Mary Switzer.

(25:00):
You've, you've heard of this?

Pam Shlemon (25:01):
Yes, I have.

Dr. Aaron Mertes (25:02):
I've never heard of this. I don't know
why, how I've gotten this farin life, and I haven't heard of
this. But , uh, I won't gothrough the whole thing. But
basically, here's a lady who ,uh, she worked in Washington
for many, many years, startingaround like the 1930s, twenties
, thirties, whatever. And thisis kind of the birthplace of
our profession, right? Yep . Wehear about Frank Parsons in our

(25:23):
textbooks, and he started thefirst agency, whatever, and
then a ton of important thingshappened in Wisconsin and in
the world, the GreatDepression, world War I , et
cetera. Sure . Okay. So I'm notgonna go into all that, but
this lady, Mary Switzer, workedtirelessly for decades and
eventually ended up being thecommissioner of voc rehab in
about 1950 mm-Hmm.
. One of thethings that happened as a

(25:43):
result of the World Wars andthe Great Depression and all of
the New deal policies from FDRis that the government took on
an important role and startedsaying, we need more
infrastructure to help peoplerehabilitate when they come
back from war, when they , uh,get injured on the job at
railroads and in mines. Andthat was just a big part of our
American history. And she waspart of that , uh, part of the

(26:05):
birth of our profession was herand her people around that time
saying, how do we, how do weshow that , uh, or align
ourselves professionally withother people, other
professionals to show theimportance and the quality of
this work? And so part of her ,uh, thinking was, well, we
should be right alongsidephysiatrists and physicians,

(26:26):
people working , uh, you know,kind of making the calls,
calling the shots in themedical world. And that worked
out for a while. And it, youknow, made some important
connections and that all thatwas interesting. But I'll let
leave a little bit of suspensefor you all to go find out in
the book if you wanna read ityourself. But the other thing
she did is she said, well, ifpeople have to be of the
highest, I think it wasn't her,but it was one of the other

(26:48):
people that was around at thetime of the highest , uh,
maturity or character. Shesaid, well then counseling is
maybe an option for that. Andso she was kind of the impetus
for , uh, adding thiscounseling piece to the
rehabilitation piece. And thereason that I bring all that up
is that that was a veryintentional decision that was

(27:08):
made at one point to alignthese professions so they could
provide a kind of services thatoverlap and they make sense.
Can they be unique? Absolutely.
But is there a ton of overlap?
Absolutely.

Pam Shlemon (27:19):
Absolutely. Yep .

Dr. Aaron Mertes (27:20):
And so this, you know, rehabilitation
counseling, if you take thosetwo words and separate 'em,
we're kind of stuck on thatstill, of trying to figure out
how are , how are they similar?
How are they different? And ifthis was a Venn diagram with
overlapping circles, how muchare they overlapping? And what
does that mean for our, for whowe are? And that's the debate
that's been going on for a longtime, long before I was born

(27:43):
. So , uh, and I thinkthat's still happening and it's
playing out right now, and insome ways sure is , um, you
know, being decided for some ofus. But that's another, another
part of the conversation. Iguess I'll stop there.

Pam Shlemon (27:57):
There's an antidote , a great antidote in
your book about a gentleman whowas a CRC and working more in
the communications andpaperwork process of his
company's return to workprocess. He told you he still
saw value in keeping the CRCeven though he wasn't doing
those evaluations himself. Andyou write that his story
indicates, and I'll quote howimportant our skills are, even

(28:19):
if we don't always understandhow they fit. When individuals
decide to let their CRC lapsebecause they don't see the
direct connection to theirday-to-day role , um, what are
they losing out on by lettingtheir CRC lapse?

Dr. Aaron Mertes (28:31):
When we spoke about the, about credentialing
Mm-Hmm . at largecertification, licensing,
whatever, that some people getit because it's a practical
financial decision. And, and ifyou're paying to renew a
certification and paying forcontinuing education, but
you're not working still, tosome people that doesn't make a
lot of sense. And that's fineif people retire out of their

(28:53):
profession. But those otherpeople who see the , I'll use
the word extraordinary valueand it's just part of their
identity. One of the thingsthat I learned when I was in
school and continue to be , uh,impressed by or find it
important is how peoplemaintain their identity even
after they end their careers,like in retirement. And so I
think one of the things thatcan keep people healthy is a

(29:15):
sense of who they are, a senseof who they belong to and who
their community is. And I, I ,I see people holding onto it
because of that reason. Forsome people that makes a lot of
sense, and for some people itdoesn't. But , um, you know,
what are, what is a personmissing out on? If we only
focus on the financial benefitof our professional lives and

(29:36):
not on the social benefit, welose sight of some of those
really important things. And Idon't need to get on a soapbox
about how, where we get oursense of belonging and our
social integration. 'cause wejust went through Covid and I
think most of us have somepretty good impressions about
how that matters to us. Butthis is just an example of how
much our work matters to who weare and how we stay healthy

(29:58):
even after retirement or whenwe switch careers or whatever.
So I hope that answers yourquestion.

Pam Shlemon (30:04):
Yeah. And thank you for sharing that. 'cause I
think it's, it's reallyimportant as we speaking what
you just mentioned about thosein retirement who are actually
maintaining their certificationthrough a retirement
designation so they don't loseit because of that professional
identity, their belonging to aplace that credential means a
lot to them. And they've beenin the profession for many,
many years. We're strugglingwith younger professionals

(30:27):
coming in who may stay in thefield but don't see the value
because their employer doesn'tvalue the credential. And I'm
always struck by them allowingtheir certification to lapse
because they've invested somuch time in going through grad
, the grad program, then goingand preparing for the CRC,

(30:49):
passing the CRC, paying for theCRC and that CRC, while your
employer may not value ittoday, you don't know what
tomorrow brings. And the valuethat credential may have down
the road from now I understandeconomic issues that people
have just to say because myemployer doesn't value it to
me, is , is I I think thatthere's , um, some disconnect

(31:10):
there. One, you are taught toadvocate for your clients .
CRCs need to advocate forthemselves as well. Mm-Hmm.
sometimesdifficult. But you need to
advocate why it's , why thatcredential's important. What
does that credential mean toyour client? Does your client
know that you are holding thehighest credential in the space
that you're getting servicefrom? So does that client know?

(31:32):
And those are important thingsthat I think that we're trying
to showcase and share withindividuals who are
contemplating, do I keep thecredential? Do I not keep the
credential? We have so manypeople come back to us and say,
I let it lapse a year ago. CanI just come back and you can
come back? You have to sit forthe exam. Oh , I don't wanna
sit for the exam. Well, so it ,it's a struggle that we face.

(31:53):
Um, but we hope through ourmessaging and some of the work
that we're doing, that CRCswill maintain that credential
because their own investment init.

Dr. Aaron Mertes (32:01):
One of the things that I'm very fortunate
to have had is , uh, ourfaculty members who will
introduce me to the professionand how when we become a
counselor, it's not just aboutus and the client, it's about
us representing something muchbigger and how much, how
important that is. And I don'tknow an answer to this, but I

(32:23):
almost get the impression orwonder when people are making
individual decisions forthemselves, it diminishes the
the profession for everybody.
And that's not to say that, youknow, we that shame on you. You
should probably keep it for thebenefit of all those other
people. 'cause that's notpractical. That doesn't make
any sense.

Pam Shlemon (32:41):
Right ? Yeah .

Dr. Aaron Mertes (32:42):
But I wonder how we as a profession have
held ourselves together, andthis is kind of a loaded, a
loaded word, held ourselvestogether enough to help people
see if they're in thoseindividual dire circumstances
and they're in tight financialsituations, which as you said,
we both completely respect.
Sure . What's what sense is itin it for them to, to maintain

(33:03):
this, you know, and Right. Itry to be really practical and
sensible when, when studentsand , uh, my peers and
colleagues, whatever are allmaking these decisions that
they're hard decisions to make.

Pam Shlemon (33:13):
Absolutely. And

Dr. Aaron Mertes (33:15):
One of the things I like to try and remind
people of and not be too pushyabout it, but to say, what
might we be not seeing becausewe're so worried about the
money or our current job or ourcurrent situation? Is there
something more and bigger atstake here? Yeah. Uh , it's not
to to like persuade them tokeep it or something . It's
more just to say like, let's,let's take a step back, calm

(33:37):
down if we're a littlestressed. 'cause that we get
that way and, and make a wiseas wise of a decision as
possible. Yeah. End of the day,if they make that wise decision
and that's what's right forthem, so be it. Absolutely. But
, um, just wanna be thoughtful.

Pam Shlemon (33:50):
I'm gonna switch gears a little bit. Um, I wanna
talk a little bit about , uh,you joining K Creps board of
directors last year. We werevery excited as you know, about
, uh, your ability to join theboard and , um, and the
advocacy that you'll have nowbeing on that board. Um , for
the field of rehabilitationcounseling, given the emphasis
on disability andrehabilitation counseling, what

(34:12):
challenges exist in theprofession's ability to have a
seat at the table in thecounseling program standards?
First

Dr. Aaron Mertes (34:18):
Of all, if I can share kind of how that
happened , um, I, I don't knowhow I heard of it, but some,
somehow there was a call for,Hey, C Crep is looking for a
rehabilitation counselor to bea representative on the board.
And I kind of poked around andasked my small little network
of friends and people thatsaid, you know, is anybody

(34:38):
doing this? Is anybody, are wegonna have a seat at the table?
And I didn't know, I couldn'tfigure out an answer. And I
said, okay, well somebody needsto do it. Ah , I'm busy. I
don't know if I have the time.
Oh, that sounds like a lot ofwork. And frankly, I'm a little
nervous because that's the,feels like the big leagues a
little bit, you know, .
And so I said, well, I don'tknow. Screw it. Somebody's

(34:59):
gotta do it. I'll just throw myname in the hat. And one thing
led to another. And now here Iam. I I get to be a part of
that process. And it's, I'mlearning a ton. It does provide
me a , an opportunity toadvocate, which I, I greatly
appreciate. So that's kind ofhow all that happened. One of
the things that happened, andI'll try to keep this brief,
'cause I know it's notinteresting for maybe many of

(35:21):
your listeners, unless you'rean educator, this is extremely
important for the educationalprocess. But , uh, maybe not
for everybody. So one of thethings that happened earlier
when I talked about there arethe people who think we're
rehabilitationist and we docareer related stuff with
people with disabilities.
We've, we refer out forcounseling. That's just not
what we do. And there's thecamp of people who say, no, no,

(35:42):
we, we understand that part ofthe rehabilitation process is
clinical, that we have toconsider both mental and
physical conditions and we canassist with that process. And
there's those two camps whenthe, the old accrediting body
merged with the new accreditingbody. In short, one of the
things that happened is nowthere's two specialty areas.
And what that basically meansis C WRAP is an organization
accredits all these programs.

(36:03):
And for those that may notknow, accreditation basically
is like a third party stamp ofapproval that you have quality.
And there are four educationalprograms. They accredit school
counseling programs, mentalhealth counseling programs,
addiction, rehab, when theymerged. And the change happened
because we have had this debatefor so long in our field, there
are now two specialty areas.

(36:24):
One of 'em is rehabilitationcounseling and one of 'em is
clinical rehabilitationcounseling, which directly
mirrors this, this , uh,schism, if you'll allow a goofy
word, this , uh, thisdifference, this debate that
we've been having for so long.
And , uh, I, not to , um, touse names necessarily, but I

(36:45):
was having a conversation withthe CEO of Krep over dinner one
time and we were , uh,altogether in a big group. And
I said, so just can you gimme alittle bit of background and
stuff? 'cause I'm justlearning. I'm trying to
understand how this allhappened. Whatever. And she
said in so many words, youknow, we've been working on
this for a long time and I'vereally given the opportunity
for all the people who havebeen a part of the process.

(37:06):
'cause there's been quite a fewrehab counselors and people who
know their stuff, people who Igreatly respect Yep . Have been
a part of this process. And shesaid, you guys tell me what you
want. What is the field ofrehab? How does it work? How do
we maintain standards? What isthe best kind of counselor that
you see that needs to beminimally competent ? All that
kind of stuff. And you got apart in that too, Pam. And so

(37:27):
the , the moral of the story isthat they're really, it seems
like they're open to us tellingthem what we want and we cannot
seem to figure out what wewant. And that's a big
challenge. You know , uh, we'rehaving a hard time agreeing on
that. And , uh, not to go toofar down this road, but there's
other , uh, other thingshappening. There's so many
professional organizations andsome of us academics have these

(37:50):
debates. How can a rehabcounselor in Montana where I
live, or Chicago where you guysare, how can they be expected
to pay dues membership dues toboth their certification to the
professional organization andthen this other one to over
here and then another one. Andthen travel. There's just so
much going on when there's somany conferences and so many

(38:11):
people doing these things allover in different pockets. It's
really hard for people, if notimpossible to be, to
participate in that. And as aresult, those fractures have
led to , uh, CACREP being alittle bit confused as to what
is going on with us. Andthey're open. That's the
impression that I get from allof the people that I talk to
is, we are open. We, we justwanna know, we want you to be a

(38:33):
part of this crowd. And I'm notgonna use the word family
'cause I don't wanna need toput those connotations in
there, but it is really like it, uh, I get the important that
people care and they want tobring us into the fold and say,
let's do our best. We all haveour vested interest in being
our best. What is your best?
And we haven't given a clearanswer to that.

Pam Shlemon (38:52):
Yeah. And, and I share that with you. As you
know, I've been doing a lot of, working a lot with krep . The
CEO has , has explained thesame thing. We don't, we can't
agree within our own professionof what we want. So there is
some challenges that face ourprofession that we really have
to , um, come together andreally think hard about the

(39:13):
can't , the profession can'tcontinue to go on the way it's
going. Mm-Hmm . ,um, with the fragmentation that
we have, we should cometogether as one. We could get
so much accomplished if we did.
We were able to do that. Yeah .
Um ,

Dr. Aaron Mertes (39:25):
Can can I add to that really quickly?
Absolutely. I explained alittle bit of my journey
learning the history. Mm-Hmm .
, uh, readingthat book that I was just
mentioning, rehabilitation wasenvisioned a certain way in
that cultural context a hundredyears ago. And now we have a
new opportunity. That's right.
And so, I don't know, I havesome personal opinions, but not
very strong ones. I don't knowthe direction to go. I don't

(39:47):
know what the best decisionsare to make. And frankly,
they're not mine to make, Ihappen to have this seat right
now where I have a , a a littlebit of influence and
representation of anopportunity for advocacy. But I
am not the person to make thatcall. This is a collective
decision for all of us to makeas a profession. And so I, when
people ask me like, whereshould we do? Where should we
be going? I said , I don'tknow, but we need to figure it

(40:10):
out together. And if we can'tcome together and we can't
figure it out, then we're gonnabe , um, not adapting to our
environment. And all of theDarwin's out there would tell
us, Hmm . That's maybe not thething to do because we kind of
need to evolve and adapt tomeet circumstances if we're
going to survive.

Pam Shlemon (40:28):
I think what will be challenging is we won't be a
professional, it'll be anoccupation.

Dr. Aaron Mertes (40:32):
There you go.
Yep .

Pam Shlemon (40:33):
And so that leads me into something that I'm
thrilled to announce that , uh,CRC is celebrating its 50th
anniversary this year. Um, andthose fi 50 years , um, the
field of rehab counseling hasevolved in many ways. And
looking ahead the next 50years, I can announce that CRC
is gonna be ho hosting anational symposium the first

(40:53):
ever in March of 2025. Um ,details will be following, but
this is the opportunity toaddress exactly what you said.
Where does our profession go?

Dr. Aaron Mertes (41:04):
Do we , do we get to put on party hats and
those little blanket

Pam Shlemon (41:06):
We get to? That's right. We get to draw ,
all kinds of things . Um, we'rereally thrilled about this
because it's a symposium. It'snot a conference, like a
typical conference. Then theseare gonna be panel discussions
where we all have to reallythink about the future and
imagine, we look back and lookat the all the wonderful things
this profession has done.
Mm-Hmm . imaginewhat the next 50 years would

(41:27):
look like. So that's what thissymposium is gonna be about. So
looking ahead to the next 50years, and I'm gonna ask you,
what trends do you anticipatewill shape the career pathways
of CRCs ?

Dr. Aaron Mertes (41:39):
Yeah . Or I could pull my crystal ball back
out and say, here we go. 50years. You know, when people go
on the news and they're, andthey're like, I get , I called
it back when, remember? Right .
Ill be that guy . I'll be like,I told you so . Just
kidding. I won't do that. WhenI think , uh, take a step back
for a second and just talkabout some of the things that
are happening in our worldright now. Uh, AI is taking a a

(42:02):
center stage right now.
Technology has been for a while. Yeah . It's changing our
world of work. And all of usknow that. Uh , most of us
know, you know, that quote thatyou heard from your grandpa or
something that like, well thejobs now in 10 years, they're
not gonna be the same. And, youknow, that kind of stuff. And
so what work looks like in thefuture and even in the present
as we move more home and to, toremote work or distance work of

(42:26):
some kind, one of the thingsrehabilitation counseling is
going to have to figure out ishow do we place people in those
kinds of jobs? 'cause finding'em is different. Right . You
know, I'm actually giving apresentation next week and uh,
I was given information by therehab service administration,
somebody there who said weshould probably prepare
ourselves to be , uh, to helppeople with entrepreneurial

(42:48):
experiences like starting yourown businesses and that kind of
thing. Uh, and the , it's notjust about making a business,
which of course I'm kind ofbiased 'cause I wrote this book
about it and that kind ofstuff. Sure . But it's more
about the Uber drivers who areno longer employees, but
they're , uh, subcontractors. Imean, the world of work is just
changing so much. Remember ourVenn diagram that I described

(43:10):
earlier? Yeah . Yeah . Welltake another one. So this one
has three circles. One circleis disability, one circle's
career, and one circle ismental health or counseling.
Mm-Hmm. , when I,when I'm just talking about the
world of work changing, that'skind of like, are we prepared
to support people in theircareer decisions, career making
? That's one of our sub skillsets . The other one is

(43:31):
disability. A couple years ago, uh, and I guess a couple
times since then, I've talkedto one another faculty , uh,
Phil Rumrill, who's been Mm-Hmm. , um, I don't
even know why he likes me, buthe keeps contacting me and I
keep liking him. And so , but he's been talking about
this, what's coming up, what'snext? What's happening soon?
The disability world ischanging too, the kinds of

(43:52):
disabilities that we have. Andjust to give a little bit of
space for that, it used to beback a hundred years ago that
people would come back fromWorld War I with vision
disabilities and audibledisabilities and , uh, physical
disabilities. And now as we,our jobs require more cognitive
power, brain power , all of thetech jobs and the office jobs

(44:14):
and that kind of stuff isadjusting to figure out how we
can accommodate and , uh, meetpeople's career needs given the
different landscape of what'sgonna be important for us to
know about and support. Theother part of that Venn diagram
is mental health andcounseling. And one of the
things that I think, again, Idon't know, and I don't wanna

(44:34):
be , um, contentious or getinto debates about this, but if
we continue to hold that roleas counselor, it gives a
special opportunity to addressthe occupational changes that
require more cognitive load.
And I'm gonna sound like anerdy academic here for a
second, but also the differentdisabilities that are emerging.
Absolutely. Not just physical,but mental as well. Right . And

(44:55):
how those are gonna impact theworld of work if we can adjust
to embrace that reality. Ithink if you'll excuse me
saying that, I think in thenext 50 years, that's gonna be
an important part of our futurein some way. I don't know what
that means for how we identifyand what we do at the symposium
and make all kinds of bigimportant decisions. But I

(45:16):
think we have to think reallystrongly about those, those
things.

Pam Shlemon (45:20):
Yeah. We ha we certainly have to think about
the future and, and how it'sdifferent from where it start .
You know, everything changes,time changes, things are
different. So, and we have toevolve with the changes that
are happening around us.

Dr. Aaron Mertes (45:33):
Right.

Pam Shlemon (45:33):
We don't have an option.

Dr. Aaron Mertes (45:35):
Yeah. Right .
Yeah . Absolutely.

Pam Shlemon (45:37):
So , um, one last question before we leave , uh,
today. Many describe becomingA-C-A-C-R-C as a calling. What
brings you joy in the work thatyou do?

Dr. Aaron Mertes (45:47):
Whenever I answer these questions, I try
not to be cliche. 'cause I'mlike, I gotta think of
something really smart soundingand unique, but I , you
know, but I'm not gonna be, I'mgonna be totally cliche. And
one of 'em is the, the, welltwo , one of 'em is the pe the
people. Yeah. Right . 'cause Iget to meet all kinds of
interesting people and I mightbe able to do that in all kinds
of jobs. Yes. But you talkedabout the passion that people

(46:08):
have earlier, and that issomething that, that I just
continue to appreciate inothers of how important it is .
Even when people get mad,they're like, I don't wanna
lose the, the identity that Ibuilt when I was in the
seventies. I don't wanna loseand get really excited about
that. And I I still canappreciate that. Right. Yes. I
guess the other part of it toois that one of the things that

(46:31):
brings me joy is just thediversity and the range of
experiences that I get to getto have now. And the , the ,
the part of that is because ofthe people. You know, I get to
see people from all over thecountry and meet people who are
in all different kinds ofoccupations and jobs. So I just
don't feel like, like I everget stuck, you know, like
there's always an opportunity.

(46:52):
There's always a place to go.
Um, and I might have to adjustand shift my expectations a
little bit and kind of how Iorient myself professionally,
you know, like what job I'mdoing, whatever. But , uh,
there's always seems to besomething. And if , uh, one
other thing too that justpopped in my mind, you've had a
guest on this podcast a whileago who I've, who I've met

(47:12):
before , um, Dr. James McNeil.
Yes. And one of the things hesaid that has stuck with me,
and I keep annoying people byrepeating it over and over
again, is that wherever peoplewith disabilities are, that's
where we need to be as well.
That's right . And so when Ithink what, what is next for me
in my career and what's nextfor these students in our
programs and their careers,part of the reason I wrote the

(47:33):
book the way that I did andhave been involved in the
communities that I have isbecause I say people need
services, people need supports,and those needs exist out
there. But we, I don't thinkhave fully appreciated how to
professionally make theconnection between what we have
to offer and what the needsare. And so some of this
that is

Pam Shlemon (47:49):
So true.

Dr. Aaron Mertes (47:50):
Part of the joy is figuring out how do we
facilitate getting those needsmet. It's just making
connections with peopleprofessionally, economically,
politically, personally, allthat stuff. And it feels like a
challenge. It's never going toend. And that's kind of what
keeps me com part of what keepsme coming back to . So I, I
think I walked, walked my wayinto a non cliche answer.

(48:12):
Anyway,

Pam Shlemon (48:13):
, you did.
And I certainly appreciatethat. And as I said in the
beginning, you and I have hadseveral multi-layered
conversations , um, some prettydeep conversations about the
profession and enjoyed all ofthose. And this is another one.
Um, and I so appreciate yourperspective, your time that
you, you shared with us todayto talk a little bit about the

(48:34):
field of rehabilitationcounseling and about your book
as well. Um, before we leavetoday, how can people, if
people are interested in yourbook, how can they get , get
access to your book?

Dr. Aaron Mertes (48:45):
Oh yeah, sure. So part of my journey
too, about writing this was ,um, self-publishing. Mm-Hmm,
mostly because Ididn't know how to publish with
anybody else. So I just had tofigure it out, you know, and
that's just kind of my style, Iguess. Um, so I'm selling it
off of my website, which isjust aaron murti.com ,
A-A-R-O-N-M-E-R-T-E s.com. It'salso up on Amazon , uh, but for

(49:08):
personal bias reasons, if youbuy it on Amazon, Amazon gets
more money and less comes to methat I get to put back in the
profession. So do the do withthat what you will you
get it however you want to, ifyou want it, if you don't. This
has been a fun project for meand I think a contribution to
the profession, hopefully. Um,but , uh, I, I try to take a
really practical view. I'm nothere to sell books. I'm here to

(49:30):
give information and I wantpeople to have , uh, to be able
to make wise choices. So , um,I'm a bad marketer.

Pam Shlemon (49:37):
I think you've done a phenomenal job today
providing information, so, andyour book does that as well. So
it has been a true pleasure andI look forward to many
conversations in the very nearfuture with you , um, and
working together with you. Sothank you for your time. Um,
and we'll be in touch soon.

Dr. Aaron Mertes (49:52):
Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Pam Shlemon (49:58):
Thanks again to Dr. Aaron Murti for that
engaging conversation. Ifyou're interested in purchasing
Dr. Mertis's book, you can finda link in the show notes. If
you have any takeaways orinsights on topics covered in
this episode, email us atcontact
[e-mail]. Besure to subscribe to this show
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, orwherever you're listening to us

(50:19):
today. You can find us onFacebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn
at CRC sir , and our website iscrc certification.com. Until
next time, I'm Pam Schleman.
Thank you for listening toInside Rehabilitation
Counseling.