Taylor talks to Charles McCaffrey, MBA, and Genia Hachenberg, CRC, MS at the Paralyzed Veterans of America about their Veterans Career Program. The program employs CRCs located all over the country to provide free employment support and vocational counseling assistance to all veterans, transitioning service members, spouses, and caregivers.
Learn more about the PVA's Veterans Career Program.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Inside
Rehabilitation Counseling,presented by the Commission on
Rehabilitation CounselorCertification. I'm Taylor Bauer
with CRCC, and we're so glad tohave you here for another
conversation on the art andscience of rehabilitation
counseling. October is NationalDisability Employment Awareness
Month, and this year's theme isAccess to Good Jobs for All. On
(00:26):
this episode of the podcast, wethought we'd explore the
correlation between disabilityand employment within a
particular community ofclients. CRCs often serve
veterans . Charles McCaffrey isthe director of the Veterans
Career Program at the ParalyzedVeterans of America, and he
joins us on this episode withone of the certified
rehabilitation counselors onhis team and associate director
(00:47):
of the program, Gina Hackenberg. Charles and Gina spoke to me
about the PVAs initiatives tohelp all veterans, including an
inciting new initiative focusedon self-employment. You'll also
hear their thoughts andconsiderations for CRCs working
with veterans, the importanceof the CRC credential in
providing vocational servicesand why the counselor client
relationship is truly one thatlasts for life. We hope you
(01:10):
enjoy this conversation, Gina,as the CRC present on this
call. I kind of wanted to startwith you today. Uh, we asked
all of our guests to walk usthrough how they came to find
rehabilitation counseling. Uh,what was your first encounter
with the field and what drewyou to the work you're doing
now?
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (01:27):
Well, I was on the typical path for ,
um, a psychology degree and ,and a bachelor's program. So I
was thinking therapeutic typecounseling. And our program had
short internships called JanTerms. The two that I chose in
my last two years of schoolwere , uh, one was at the
(01:48):
Shepherd Center here in Atlantathat works with persons with
spinal cord injury , and theother was a drug and alcohol
rehab center. And what I foundmyself being drawn to was the
action oriented, you know, the,the planning, putting the
pieces together versus the, youknow, one-on-one therapy type
(02:10):
sessions. Um , so I saw all thedifferent pieces of the puzzle
that people had to put togetherto coordinate and get to that
next chapter in their life. Um,and then after getting my
bachelor's , uh, what sealedthe deal was looking at Georgia
State's Master's program herein Atlanta that had a , a
(02:32):
really robust , uh,rehabilitation counseling with
Dr. Roger Weed at the helm. Um,so I got really peaked by that
and , and understood that itwas much more action oriented ,
um, and the type of counselingthat I wanted to be involved
in. So it was a great, greatstepping stone.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (02:52):
Charles, can you walk us through a bit
of your work history and howyou came to your role with the
PVA? Sure .
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Um , you know , when I left the military, so kind of
two things. One is went through, um, the Transition assistance
program. Um, this was 2005 ,um, and it basically was here's
how you wear a suit, here's howyou write a resume, here's how
(03:19):
you get your VA benefits, goodluck. Um, and so after, you
know, after all this time,making me into a sailor, they
didn't really know how to makeme into a civilian. Um, and so,
you know, like a lot ofveterans, you know, thought,
you know, Hey, I , I've gottaget a job right away. Um,
instead of taking the time todetermine what it was outside
(03:44):
of the military that I wantedto do. Um, so I went to work ,
uh, for a defense contractormaking good money, but didn't
particularly enjoy it. Right?
And so , uh, along the way, afriend of mine and I started a
restaurant. So, I mean, you gofrom military and cybersecurity
to an Italian deli in centralPennsylvania is a, is a very
(04:07):
big shift. You know, I wentback to school and got a a , a
master's degree, you know , soover the, God , we're almost
coming up on 20 years now. Um,you know, I've been unemployed,
employed, self-employed school,you name it. So I had done all
of these things in, in 20years, and I still joke with
(04:28):
folks that I still don't knowwhat I wanna do when I grow up.
And so, you know , had been acounselor , um, an SVA , uh,
small business administrationresource partner, teaching
veterans and spouses how tostart businesses. And funny
enough was, was in astorytelling class, and that
was how I connected withsomebody from PVA, had no idea
(04:51):
what PVA was. Um, and I thinklike a lot of veterans, they
hear paralyzed veterans ofAmerica. You go , uh, I'm not
paralyzed, so doesn't apply tome . Um , and so a couple years
down the road, she was like,Hey, we, we have this position
as our , uh, associate directorof, of the career program. I
think you would be really goodbecause of your experiences.
(05:13):
And I , you know, I thinkthat's one of the things that
veterans in particular, we lookout for other veterans. Um, we
may do the good natured ribbingof, you know, army versus Navy
or whatever, but we take careof our own. And so, you know,
interviewed for the job, sawwhat it was doing, thought
about other things I couldbring on. Um , absolutely love
(05:35):
my, my staff, my team ofcounselors. Um, and so been
been on board almost threeyears now with, with the career
program.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (05:43):
That's amazing. You know, I feel like
we don't talk enough about thecybersecurity to Italian deli
career pipeline . Um,it hasn't come up on the
podcast before, so I'm glad weget to touch on it a little.
It's, it's funny how we hear alot of people, we've heard from
CRCs as well, that you oftenwith a career, you kind of have
to find your way. And it'sincredible that you've both
ended up with the PVA and doingsuch amazing work, and it's
(06:05):
been really wonderful to getto, to learn more about the,
the work you're doing. Andspecifically on the Veterans
Career Program. Um, can youtell us a bit about the program
and some of the services thatyou provide to your
stakeholders?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Sure. So, so the focus is, it is veterans with
disability, and specificallythose with spinal cord injury,
disease discord , um, a as theorganization's name implies, we
just found that like withinthat community, the family unit
is important. So providingcareer assistance for spouses,
(06:39):
for adult children, forcaregivers , um, who in many
cases are all three of those,you know, the caregiver is the
spouse who was a veteran , uh,sort of thing. And so we're ,
we're fairly unique in that we,we really try to say yes to
everybody who has a militaryaffiliation. So if you're
transitioning from the, fromthe military, if you've been
(07:02):
out for four months or 40 years, um, we don't look at , um,
your discharge or criminalbackground as far as
eligibility for assistance,because a lot of times those
folks who didn't necessarilyhave the best military career
are the ones who need the, theassistance most. Um, so, so we,
(07:25):
you know, we really are a , a aSay Yes. Um, we started, so the
program started in 2007, but Ikind of want to jump ahead to
just before the pandemic. Youknow, we had been going out to
career fairs, which takes a lotof time, a lot of money for
travel and everything. And weweren't necessarily meeting our
core constituency traveldifficulty. Um , and , and
(07:49):
heard from them that they felta little patronized when they
went to job fairs that it waslike, oh, yeah, you're a
veteran with a disability. Um,but they got sent to the same
application website, and theresume and application just
kind of got lost in a blackhole. So we started before the
pandemic, what we call VeteranSquare Live . It's, it's just a
(08:09):
Zoom session. Um, but we'reable to, you know, every week
do an hour introductory sessionon what is it , what is
tailoring your resume mean, andwhy is it important? Or , um,
you know , Gina does a numberof sessions on disability
benefits and implications withgoing back to work or starting
(08:30):
a business. We bring oneducational profess
professionals. We bring oncompanies that have strong
veteran and disabilityprograms. Um, and so that's,
that's kind of our , ourcountrywide reach or nationwide
reach , um, really to get folksto understand that we are more
(08:52):
than just , um, paralyzedVeterans of America. Uh, and
then to get them connected withone of our counselors. So
there's 10 of us , uh, aroundthe country , um, that are
either , uh, uh, CRCs oremployment , uh, specialists
and , and really trying tounderstand what the
(09:14):
individual's desires are, theirabilities, wishes, all of that
, um, and connecting them notonly with the right , uh, or
with a counselor, but with theright counselor , um, with ,
with the background andeverything. And so , um, those
are kind of the, the two bigthings. And then the third
thing I would say our programencompasses is the advocacy. So
(09:36):
talking to federal agencies,talking to employers , uh, you
name it , uh, on behalf ofVeteran Employment and Veterans
with disability employment.
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (09:46):
I would just build on that, that we
jokingly call ourselvesartisanal or boutique services,
, because thereare , um, organizations that
feel a little bit more cookiecutter or conveyor belt like
services with, here's a resume,here's a class, kind of like
the transition services, here'sa mock interview video type
(10:10):
thing. But we really try todelve deep into who the person
is , um, holistically, whichis, you know, the heart of, of
voc rehab counseling, to lookat all aspects of their life
and , um, make sure they'reable to navigate and, and get
to where they wanna go, notnecessarily where we think they
should go. So just reallyindividualized services.
(10:32):
Charles touched on theNavigating Benefits programs.
Um, we are an employmentnetwork for Social Securities
Ticket to Work program, and wehave a lot of our clients that
are on SSCI and have to figureout how to protect their
benefits or appeal overpaymentthat can get quite
(10:53):
overwhelming. So we're proud tobe able to serve them in that
way.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (10:58):
I know as I was kind of getting into the
world of working with CRCC ,um, navigating those benefit
systems and just differentprograms federally or at the
state level was something thatI found really profound about
the work that that CRCs do,because those are, especially
if you've never, if you haven'tlived in that space for your
life, right, it's, it's veryoverwhelming to be dealing with
(11:21):
this new lived experience ontop of all these different
formalized bureaucratic systemsthat have very strict rules,
and you have to make sureyou're doing everything
correctly to get the benefitsand everything. So it's great
to have allies to be able toguide you through that process.
I feel like that's , um, one ofthe things that I hear a lot
when we, when we talk to folksabout what CRCs do that they
(11:42):
always wanna highlight, becauseobviously the vocational
history of the, of , of thecredential and of
rehabilitation counseling as aprofession at large, is I is
well known for people who knowwho rehab counselors are. But
yeah, navigating those, thosebenefit systems are, are is
something I find , um, reallyprofound about the work that
CRCs do with clients
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (12:02):
Starting in , in the field and learning
about voc rehab. I didn'tanticipate having to learn such
a technical government programthat wasn't on my radar, but
it's, it's a huge part of howwe try to protect our clients.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (12:17):
Yeah. Well, and you used a word that we
love to use a lot, which is,you know, holistic, right? So
working with a client andtrying to get them a , a
meaningful career that they'regoing to feel empowered by and
, and valued in , um, is, isonly part of that experience of
working with someone , um, likea CRC and , and or someone on
your team. So, especially forfolks who are coming out of a
(12:40):
master's program, they're like,I'm gonna go counsel. I'm gonna
go talk to people about, youknow, functional limitations
and , um, you know, assessdifferent career skills that
they have and, and what theirgoals are. And then, yeah , all
of a sudden you're having todive into , um, social security
benefits and all thesedifferent sorts of programs and
, uh, that functional knowledgethat CRCs brain like yourself ,
um, are invaluable to clients.
(13:01):
And something that wedefinitely want people to know
, uh, when they're, you know,maybe , um, experiencing a
disability for the first time,or they were born with one
that, you know, seeking out theservices of A CRC, this is
something that they can assistyou with, which is great. You
know, we've talked a little bitabout, you know, the fact that
there are CRCs on your teamwith the Veterans Career
program , uh, which isobviously, you know, our bread
(13:22):
and butter right? Is , uh,serving the CRCs that we
credential and, and help toprovide continuing education
too . Um, Charles, I kind ofwanna start with you for this
two part question. Um, whatknowledge and skills do you
identify in the CRCs on staffthat make them effective and
essential to the goals of yourprogram?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
You know , working very closely with Gina, you
know, looking at kind of astandard resume, if you will,
of , uh, experiences the CRCwould have. Um, so I want the,
the, the knowledge base, but Ithink the bigger thing that I
look for , um, it is , uh,creative thinking because
every, as Gina mentioned, wedon't take a cookie cookie
(14:04):
cutter approach. Um, andeverybody's going to be a
little different. And I, I wantto give my CRCs the, the leeway
to do that , um, but also havethem have the fearlessness ,
um, to, to do that, right? Um,a lot of times the, the
(14:25):
counselors are faced withproblems that have nothing to
do with careers, right? So itcould be homelessness, could be
food security, it could bemental or physical health
issues. Um, and while we don'ttry to reinvent the wheel , um,
having them be able to say, yep, so let's find you the
resource to take care of thisor that, or, or , or whatever
(14:48):
it is. Um, on the career sidespecifically, probably one of
my favorite one stories is ,um, having a client who was an
electrician in the military,was an electrician on the
civilian sector, suffered aspinal cord injury. And when he
had recovered enough that hewanted to talk about
employment, you know, thecounselor was like, oh , do you
(15:09):
, you know, do you wanna stayin the electrician field? Um,
and , and we see this a lotthat having an injury or a
traumatic experience like thischanges your worldview on
things and said, you know , um,I've always wanted to be a chef
at kind of like going fromcybersecurity to a Italian
(15:30):
deli, you know, going from anelectrician to being a chef.
Um, food seems to be a commontheme here, which I can totally
understand. Um , oh yeah. Butit, you know, and , and having
the counselor be able to say,okay, so let's find you a
culinary arts program. Let'sfind you the transportation to
get to that program. Let's findyou , uh, a restaurant that
(15:53):
maybe has an accessible kitchenthat they're looking to hire ,
um, type of things. And, andbeing able to , to go 180
degrees out from where theymaybe had started. Um, I think
that's probably the, thebiggest skill , um, that, that
I look for. Um, not a , a alittle bit of off balance , um,
(16:15):
where I love my team , um, butwe are , we are pretty kooky.
Um, and so being , being ableto relate to the team and, and
, and everything is, you know,is also a big , uh, part of it.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (16:28):
I love that. Yeah. If everybody was
super normal, I mean, what'sinteresting about that, right?
Everyone kind of has their ownunique perspective, and then
you start melding people'sdifferent personalities
together, and yeah , you getthis little mix of like a work
family who all kind of bringsomething a little different to
the table. And , and thatdefinitely helps a dynamic, I
think, when you're workingtogether. Exactly . Um, Gina, I
(16:50):
wanna ask you kind of in thesimilar vein as a CRC , uh,
yourself, working with othercertified professionals , um,
on your team across thecountry, right? Um, how
important is it that many ofyour peers hold that same CRC
credential as you, and whatdifference does that make in
your collective outcomes as ateam?
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (17:07):
Uh , it's incredibly important and,
and we've seen a lot ofpushback , um, across the field
in different environments wherethere's saying, you know , it's
not necessarily that importantand you can still do similar
positions, but for me , um,it's just night and day. When I
meet somebody that's beenthrough the same training, they
(17:30):
have an instinct that isundeniable. So I talk about
triage a lot with, with ourteam in terms of when you get a
case, you know, A CRC isautomatically their brain's
going in 20 differentdirections, like going through
a checklist of all the areasand then putting them in order
(17:50):
of , you know, like I say ,triage, which one's most
important to start with. Um,and we're thinking of who we
need to network with andcollaborate with. Um, so I , I
just don't see that at the samelevel with folks that haven't
been through the CRCcertification process and
training. Um, and we're reallyfortunate with our team,
(18:14):
because I tell everybody, I'veworked in a lot of different
environments, but this is thebest job I've ever had at PVA,
because it really is pure vocrehab and CRCs who have been
in, you know, workers' compenvironments or , uh, life care
planning or just all sorts ofenvironments, you're , you tend
(18:35):
to have more than one agenda or, or people or entities that
you're serving. And at PVA, our, our directive is do what's
best for this person no matterwhat. Um, and so it's such a
gift as A-A-C-R-C to , to begiven that environment and to
really do what we were trainedfor and what brought us to the
(18:58):
field in the first place.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (18:59):
Yeah, that's wonderful to hear. I
think, you know, that kind ofclient driven focus in this
work is, is where theprofession started, and that's
where we see that people whonot only have the most success
in 2024, but who are mostfulfilled in the work they're
doing. 'cause like you said,people who go on to be A CRC
feel very passionate about thework they do and , and , and
(19:20):
providing services forindividuals with disabilities.
And when you're in anenvironment where that's not
the main goal, I think itshows, it shows in folks we
speak to or hear from , um, andtheir job satisfaction as a
counselor. You know, if that'snot the focus and there are
other things in the way, it canbe very difficult to feel like
you are fulfilling the purposethat you sought out , uh,
(19:40):
professionally and you know,personally, right? This is very
meaningful work to people onevery level, right? So it ,
it's always great to, to, youknow, the first conversation I
had with both of you, I waslike, oh, it's so great to see
people who get it right. And ,and then the work you're doing
is so impactful and it speaksfor itself and in the client
stories that you share. And it, it's just wonderful to see ,
(20:04):
um, people like Gina who are inthis profession for a reason,
who are so great at what youdo, and you're in the space to
be able to do that. And it'sthis perfect , uh, formula for
really meaningful life-changingwork. So thank you. Um, and
thank you both for, you know,making that a declared
initiative and kind ofphilosophy for, for , for the
program that you're running.
(20:24):
One of the things that I read,you know, when we first spoke
was that you, you view as anorganization, the Veteran's
Career Program as a partnershipfor life. And I, I found that
to be very profound becausesome of the, the pushback we
hear from people who feel like,again, they may be not in a
great environment , uh, for,for voc rehab or for , uh,
(20:46):
rehabilitation counseling , um,they, they feel like, you know,
my job is to get a client a job, and then hopefully they stay
in that job for X amount oftime, and then that's it. So
I'm curious, you know, what isthe motivation behind the
ideology that the clientcounselor relationship doesn't
end, you know, simply becausesomeone has landed a job?
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Yeah, I, I, I think, you know, the, the big
motivation is actually beforewe even have a relationship, a
a lot of the folks that wetalked to, they were given very
bad advice , um, that it waslike, Hey, you have a hundred
percent disability through theva, take your benefit. Um,
literally sit back , uh, and,and don't worry about working
(21:29):
or starting a business becauseyou could lose those benefits.
Some of those folks have beendoing that for 20, 30 years,
and as I think all of us got afeel for it during covid , that
that isolation and socialseparation is, is not healthy.
Um, and so, you know,physically and mentally , um,
(21:51):
they , they found , uh,themselves suffering and, and
so now they, they see thatcomment or that philosophy, or
they see what we're doing, andit's like, Hey, even though
I've been out of the workforcefor 30 years, this organization
is willing to help me get back.
Uh, and, and they understandthat, and they understand not
(22:14):
just the , uh, again, not justthe financial piece of it, but
the, the physical emotionalpiece of it. Um, and I think it
also speaks to understandingthe, the family unit, and
again, especially with personswith disability and how
important that is, that it, youknow, while the individual
might not be able to work asmuch, maybe their caregiver who
(22:37):
is an adult , uh, family memberneeds assistance, and it's
like, you know, yes,absolutely. We'll be able to,
to help. And then there is that, um, you know, after the, and
I hate using the term placementbecause that's more of a
recruiting thing, but it, youknow, that's what it is. You
know, so we place somebody ,um, but they may find that ,
(22:59):
um, they need accommodationsthat they hadn't thought of,
and they need somebody to talkto about, Hey, how do I
approach my boss , uh, aboutthis accommodation that, that I
need? You know, am I gonna getfired if I didn't reveal
something, you know, type ofthing. And, and, you know,
being able to say, no ,absolutely. You know, let's,
let's work with you on that.
(23:20):
Um, somebody gets into a , ajob and they're like, this was
not what I thought it was gonnabe, you know, and it's like,
okay, yeah. So let's, let'sfind you something that is. And
so I , I I, I , I think thebiggest thing, and, and Gina
and I have talked about thisbefore too, about this program
is , is , um, providing hope.
(23:42):
And, and I think having that asa, as a, you know, really
something we believe in being apartner for life, I think it,
it helps drop barriers. I thinkit helps , um, with providing
hope. 'cause a lot of timeswith especially veterans who
have recently experienced atraumatic , uh, uh, incident ,
(24:04):
um, they're, they're morefocused on recovery. Although,
you know, they are thinkingabout what's, what my life is
gonna be like. But, you know,it's, it's the spouse and the
parents who have thosequestions as well. And being
able to have thoseconversations and say, yeah, at
some point , uh, life's gonnabe different. Um, but it
doesn't mean it's over, right?
(24:26):
And , and when you are ready,we'll be ready, you know, type
of thing . So that, that's mytake on it.
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (24:32):
Yeah, I agree with all of that. Um,
just from a , a slightlydifferent angle with, you know,
you've got your folks that havebeen been in the military
community leave no one behind.
And as Charles mentioned , um,looking out for each other is
just a huge component of thatmilitary community. So , um,
(24:54):
saying , you're gonna be thereand you're gonna show up no
matter what's going on is , isa really common theme. So we
take that very seriously interms of , um, saying what we
mean, meaning what we say, youknow, just because , uh, you
had something change in yourlife, perhaps , uh, your
disability was aggravated andyou can no longer do that job.
(25:18):
You know, we're still gonna bethere. And , and I recognize
that it is a luxury. I knowI've worked in different
environments where whether itbe the state or , um, the third
party administrator withinsurance, the insurance world,
you, you know, you don't have alot of choices. It's, it's got
a very specific goal. Get thejob, get 'em , you know, off
(25:43):
the caseload, so to speak. So I, I do recognize that being at
a private nonprofit with thismission is , is a wonderful ,
um, gift to me and to all thepeople that we serve . Um, and
yeah, I, I just don't think vocrehab or rehabilitation
counseling is meant to be , um,time limited and, and
(26:08):
contained. I mean, we are, thatholistic word comes up again,
we're looking at the wholeperson, and they may wanna get
another degree, they may needto save a job because as
Charles mentioned, moreaccommodations are needed. Um,
they may want to look at acompletely different field or ,
(26:30):
um, transition off of their,you know, benefits onto a new
position or get back ontobenefits after they, you know,
have been working for a whilebecause that disability , um,
perhaps to generate it , it gotworse. Um, so yeah, just
looking at the whole person andhow they may evolve and , and
(26:52):
their needs would change, youknow, to me is, is the essence
of rehabilitation counseling,not, not something that's meant
to be boxed in and contained.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (27:03):
Something that I run into a lot when I
speak to folks who work in thefield is, you know, we have
misconceptions about, aboutindividuals with disabilities,
and sometimes we try to putthem in a different bucket than
the rest of us, right? So thisidea, and you mentioned Gina
and Charles, you mentioned itas well, the idea that you
would just think, oh, I'm, Iwant to try this for a career,
(27:23):
and then you would do it. Andthat's 100% of the time gonna
be exactly what you enjoy doingand what you're passionate
about. And, you know, caseclose , that's not always the
case, right? I think a lot ofus have an idea of something
they want , we want to do. Wetry it out and we're like, Ooh
, that's not quite it. Butthere are elements that I want
to continue to explore. And Ithink that partnership for life
(27:43):
is so crucial becauseespecially navigating a new
disability, you are trying tofigure out a lot all at once.
And there are going to bemoments where you head in one
direction and you realize it'stime to redirect. And having a
partner, you know, in your teamto be able to navigate those
things and come back and say,Hey, this wasn't quite what I
thought it was gonna be. Um,that's, that's so impactful for
(28:05):
anybody, right? To have thatsupport system that can say,
okay, well, what's working foryou and what's not, and how do
we mitigate these different ,um, expectations that have
maybe kind of not gone the waythat you thought they were
going to go. So , um, that ,that , that's really great to
hear. Yeah . That that's, youknow, part of what you're all
about. We talked a little bitabout , um, the, the , the
(28:26):
veterans Career live , uh,sessions that you're running.
And Charles, you had sharedwith me via email , um, a
really interesting , uh,perspective that, you know, a
lot of people with disabilitiesare, have opted out of
traditional employment, butthey do still consider
self-employment an opportunity.
And I know from our firstdiscussion, that was something
that you've kind of leanedinto, particularly post covid
(28:48):
as you've not been doing the ,um, the in-person job fairs as
much and opting for these,these live sessions ha have
these , uh, veterans careerlive webinars and, you know,
kind of conversations been a ,a place to explore those
self-employment skills andopportunities. And, and how
have , um, your stakeholdersresponded to those
opportunities and , um,exploring that as an option
(29:09):
for, for what they could doprofessionally?
Speaker 3 (29:12):
We've seen incredible response. I, I would
say, so we do probably about 90sessions a year , um, with
about 10,000 people who signup. Um, we, we always try to
encourage them to, toparticipate live so they can
ask questions, but that's partof the reason of doing it as
Zoom and and recording it, is ,um, you know, you may not be
(29:36):
able to get away from a meetingor whatever. So we always make
the , um, the sessionrecordings a avail available to
everybody. Um, what's beengreat is the, the diversity of
what we're able to discuss onthese. Um, you know, so last
year there was a lot of focuson student loan forgiveness. So
(30:00):
we were able to bring on folksto, to talk about the different
programs when they were gonnaexpire, how to apply, things
like that. Um, you know, and,and what constitutes something
that is career focused . Um, wetake a very broad view of that.
So, I mean, we have folks whocome on and talk about , um,
(30:21):
you know, armed services, artspartnerships, so taking classes
on storytelling or comedy orimprov and , and you may say,
well , how does that improvethe career? So a lot of it has
to do with building confidencein public speaking , uh, and,
and interviews as well, as wellas being a little funny, you
know, that, that's a good thingtoo. Um,, so they've,
(30:41):
you know, they, the, theprogram as a whole, I say, has,
has been very successful. Wecontinue to, to do it. Um, but
as you mentioned, and, and youknow, the report that came out
last year said like 94% ofpeople with disabilities that
is beyond the unemployed phase,that is folks who have just
left the workforce. They, theyaren't trying anymore and for a
(31:05):
number of reasons, but theystill are looking at
self-employment. And that thatcould be just them turning
their hobby into something thatgenerates some income, or it
could be something wherethey're starting a business and
they're hiring employees or, orwhatever. Um, being able to do
that virtually , uh, ha has asignificant positive impact,
(31:28):
especially on people withdisabilities. Um, the whole
point of our program,especially the pilot program,
was to get feedback like, youknow, were the classes too
long? You know , um, was thematerial presented in in the
appropriate manner ? Do , didwe have resources specifically
for people with disabilities?
Things like that. Um, and it's,it's so nice to be able to have
(31:52):
a forum where we can just say,Hey, you know, we've just
noticed that , uh, financialliteracy is a topic that a lot
of folks do not know about, butthey're interested in. Let's do
a session on it. Um, so yeah,it's , the program overall has
been very successful . Um, andespecially for the, on the
(32:12):
self-employment side has beenincredibly useful.
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (32:15):
I've got folks that have just said over
and over, I never would'vethought of that, or I never
would've heard of that, youknow, unusual training program
or , um, been able to speak tothat expert and ask them a
direct question. So I thinkpeople really appreciate that.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (32:33):
Yeah, absolutely. 90 sessions in a
year is no small feat,especially to have them be, be
that engaging and dynamic andget that great response. So ,
um, as someone on the contentplanning side, I'm in awe and
maybe going to email you forsome tips , uh, after, after we
get off this conversation, but, uh, we have a lot of CRCs who
(32:53):
have clients who are, who areveterans with, with a
disability , um, some dependingon their work setting, may not
have encountered a lot of ofveterans , um, who have, you
know, served in the militaryand are now , um, navigating a
disability. What takeaways doyou think when it comes to
working specifically with ,with veterans with disabilities
might help other CRCs when itcomes to, you know, different
(33:17):
things that you're encounteringas your team is, is, is working
with all these sorts ofdifferent people across the
country, and are, are therespecial considerations or
approaches that, that tend tohelp , um, best serve , um, a
veteran who's seeking out theseservices?
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (33:33):
I really feel that the culture shift ,
uh, well, two things. Theculture shift from, you know,
military to civilian istremendous. It's like if you
grew up in Kansas and then youwere dropped off in Mars and
said, Hey, get to know thesefolks, good luck. Um, the
(33:53):
veterans I speak with are like,it's just such a different
environment in terms of howpeople communicate , um, the
expectations of performance ,um, you know, things that are
valued. So it , it's a real bigshift in communities when they
come to civilian sectorpositions . They , a lot of
(34:14):
what I hear is they don't feelunderstood in terms of their
value and what they've done ,um, in terms of leadership and
responsibilities , um, in themilitary. Um, the other thing
is the fact that it's antypically acquired disabilities
, so not something that theywere born with , um, and have,
(34:38):
you know, grown up with, likesome of us may work with people
with developmental disabilitiesor , and other conditions. Um,
so that has not only a physicalimpact on their abilities, but
a huge emotional , um, traumato have that, you know,
acquired disability from , um,an event such as, you know, an
(35:02):
IED or even if they weren't incombat, they may have
experienced some other type oftrauma or had an accident and
training things like that. Soit would be a new and acquired
, um, condition. So definitelythe culture shift,
understanding their, theirvalue and their experience, and
then the impact of that suddenacquired disability.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Yeah, kinda , uh, along the same lines of that ,
especially, you know, we, wetalked about the, the creative
thinking and, and the processof doing all that , um, might
not be something veterans weretaught, right? Uh, it it's very
much, here's the process,here's the procedure, boom,
boom, boom, let you know, let'sdo it. Um, and so helping ease
(35:47):
them into more creativethinking about their employment
opportunities and, and theircareers , um, a a certain think
is , is something to , to beaware of. I, I think as well,
and , and only because we workso much wi with the veteran
community, is not necessarilyreinventing the wheel, but
being aware of the otherresources that are available,
(36:10):
right? So , um, a veteran whohas faced like long-term
unemployment may have otherthings going on. There may be
mental health , um,T-B-I-P-T-S-D, things going on
with that. Um, and you know,obviously if you're not a
mental health counselor , um,you know, want to get them to
(36:31):
the right program, andsometimes, you know, we're very
proud, we don't want to admitthat we have these, these
issues. There may be substanceabuse, there may be
homelessness, all , all ofthese other things. And so I
think being aware of the otherresources that are available ,
um, not just through the va butjust through the community
that, that you work within, I ,I think that is incredibly
(36:54):
important for the CRCs to besuccessful in their, in their
work. If I could add one more,one more Yeah . Please on , on
this particular topic is , um,for the CRCs is themselves,
make sure that they're takingtime for self-care. Um, you
know, ev even though I , Idon't wanna say only, but you
(37:17):
know, you're, you're working onthe career side of things, you
do get a lot of the personal ,uh, that comes into the
counseling sessions andeverything, and , and we absorb
that and that impacts us. And,and being able to say, you
know, Hey, so I just had a verydifficult counseling session.
(37:38):
Um, I need to take some time tomyself , um, so that my mental
and physical health is, istaken care of. I, I think
that's really , uh, I, I thinkthat's important to be aware of
and making sure that that's theenvironment that, that the
counselors are working in too .
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (37:55):
Yeah. That , that's great to add. And, you
know, it's not like , um, fromnine to five, let's say, if you
have a couple of reallydifficult sessions that at five
o'clock you can always say, allright , no more
responsibilities, no more beingan adult for the day, right?
You have a whole nother worldin life to go take care of as a
working person. And , uh, yeah,we try to encourage our CRCs
(38:15):
all the time to not only takecare of themselves, but also
speak to one another about whatyou're experiencing. Maybe not
necessarily like, you know, the, the , the stories with
clients in , in detail, but,you know, you're not the only
one who's, who's feelingoverwhelmed by the, the amount
that you're taking on in, inthis role. And while it's great
(38:35):
that you're equipped to do it,and that you are knowledgeable
and skilled, it still can be avery heavy experience and a
heavy weight to weight to hold, um, particularly if you feel
like you're kind of burying italone. So , um, yeah, we
definitely encourage folks to,to take time to, you know, not
only practice self-care, butalso self-compassion, that just
because this is the professionthat you've been called to go
(38:58):
do doesn't mean you're notallowed to feel a little burnt
out and a little , um, likeyou're in need of a break and a
breather. Um, and , and thatmight not be something that
just an hour of watching yourfavorite TV show, and then it
all goes away, right? Like, it,it , these things can stick
with you and it's important to, um, involve people in those
kind of feelings that you'rehaving and, and not face that
(39:18):
stuff alone. Folks who listento the podcast will know that
this is how we tend to endthese conversations. 'cause I'm
always really fascinated by thefolks who we speak with and how
a lot of this work ends upcooking with people because
they feel like they've been,you know, called to serve
individuals with disabilities,whether they knew that that was
the path that they were headingin or not. So I'm curious for
(39:40):
both of you , um, in the workthat you do with Paralyzed
Veterans of America, whatbrings you joy in, in the role
that you're in and the workthat you do on a day-to-day
basis?
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (39:51):
Oh gosh.
Big question. Well, I can saythroughout my whole career,
everybody, including mychildren, my family, 'cause I
did not grow up around personswith disabilities in any
significant way, which I hear alot of people in this business
have. Um, I was really drawn toall these different definitions
of success and the verydeliberate and, and way that,
(40:18):
you know, people can get there.
And the more I got exposed topersons with disabilities,
everybody kept saying , oh,isn't it depressing you're
working with somebody who'squadriplegic or a
schizophrenia? And it's so sad.
And I realized that mytemperament and my outlook on
life was completely theopposite in that I found it so
(40:39):
exciting to see what we can do,what we can succeed in, and
what we can accomplish. Um,whether that's, you know, being
able to feed yourself orbecoming an engineer for a
Fortune 500 company, it lookingahead and, and not having
limitations and, and definingthat success for each person ,
(41:02):
um, I just found veryinvigorating and exciting , um,
and meaningful. So the glasshalf full, I guess, it
keeps, keeps me going, keeps meoptimistic to see the changes
that can be made.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
I would say from my perspective, a lot of it comes
from my background. Um, having,having been a veteran or being
a veteran, actually having beenactive duty and doing that
transition , um, and having thegood fortune to have had a
number of experiences, eventhough I didn't think about it
(41:39):
at the time, that that's what Iwas doing. But , you know,
working for a big business,working for a small business,
starting my own business , um,the fear of being unemployed or
having been unemployed , um,you know, going back to school
, um, do doing a , a , a numberof other things and, and then
just being able to , um, takeclasses on comedy and
(42:02):
storytelling. You know, I'venot anything I ever would've
thought about , um, you know,been on stages with, with, you
know, tens of thousands ofpeople in , in the , uh,
audience or thousands of peoplein the audiences, you know? Um,
and being able to share thoseexperiences and say, Hey, this
is what's available. This iswhat is out there. And , and as
(42:24):
Gina mentioned, you know, kindof the military mantra of not
leaving people behind. And sobeing able to do that work
where you're , where you'resaying, Hey, I'm, I'm here, you
know, if you need me, I'm here.
Uh, and maybe even when youdon't need me, I'm gonna be
there, type, type of thing to ,to me that's my, my motivation
and I absolutely love. And, and, um, you know, every month we
(42:48):
do a success story and , andbeing able to see those success
stories. 'cause I think theyare so much more important than
just the sheer numbers. Youknow, the numbers are there and
I , I , it's never been one ofthose things where I've had to
worry about quotas or anythinglike that. 'cause you know, I
understand having been a smallbusiness counselor, you could
(43:09):
meet somebody today who you canplace in two weeks, or it could
be you meet somebody today andit takes two years, right? And
so being , uh, having thatflexibility to, to do that is,
is important. But I've neverhad to worry about the numbers.
The numbers always work outanyway. But when I address, you
know, companies or conventionsor up on Capitol Hill, the
(43:33):
things that resonate the mostare those individual stories
that say, you know, here'ssomebody who had , you know, is
a veteran with or without adisability. Um, but typically
with a disability who got intothis program who now is
employed and bought their , uh,first house, you know, and ,
(43:54):
and in the course of like sixmonths, you know , type of
thing. And so, tho that's thething that motivates me. Um,
'cause I think that's the thingthat, again, provides the hope
to, to other folks to say,yeah, I, you know, I , I should
reach out, I should getassistance, and , and I can do
this.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (44:16):
Thanks again to Charles McCaffrey and
Gina Hackenberg for their timeand insight during this episode
of Inside RehabilitationCounseling. You can find a link
to the Veteran's Career Programwebsite in today's show notes
you heard from Charles as wellabout the importance of client
stories. So you'll also findthe link in the show notes to
our open call for stories fromboth CRCs and clients served by
(44:39):
CRCs to aid in our efforts toraise awareness of the
profession and advocate onbehalf of CRCs to employers,
lawmakers, and the generalpublic. If you have any
takeaways or insights on topicscovered in this episode, email
us at contactus@crccertification.com. Be
sure to subscribe to this showon Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or
(45:01):
wherever you're listening to ustoday. You can find us on
Facebook and LinkedIn at CRCCert , and our website is crc
certification.com. Until nexttime, I'm Director of
Communications and Marketing,Taylor Bauer. And for CRCC,
thank you for listening toInside Rehabilitation
Counseling.
Hello, and welcome to Inside
Rehabilitation Counseling,presented by the Commission on
Rehabilitation CounselorCertification. I'm Taylor Bauer
with CRCC, and we're so glad tohave you here for another
conversation on the art andscience of rehabilitation
counseling. October is NationalDisability Employment Awareness
Month, and this year's theme isAccess to Good Jobs for All. On
(00:26):
this episode of the podcast, wethought we'd explore the
correlation between disabilityand employment within a
particular community ofclients. CRCs often serve
veterans . Charles McCaffrey isthe director of the Veterans
Career Program at the ParalyzedVeterans of America, and he
joins us on this episode withone of the certified
rehabilitation counselors onhis team and associate director
(00:47):
of the program, Gina Hackenberg. Charles and Gina spoke to me
about the PVAs initiatives tohelp all veterans, including an
inciting new initiative focusedon self-employment. You'll also
hear their thoughts andconsiderations for CRCs working
with veterans, the importanceof the CRC credential in
providing vocational servicesand why the counselor client
relationship is truly one thatlasts for life. We hope you
(01:10):
enjoy this conversation, Gina,as the CRC present on this
call. I kind of wanted to startwith you today. Uh, we asked
all of our guests to walk usthrough how they came to find
rehabilitation counseling. Uh,what was your first encounter
with the field and what drewyou to the work you're doing
now?
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (01:27):
Well, I was on the typical path for ,
um, a psychology degree and ,and a bachelor's program. So I
was thinking therapeutic typecounseling. And our program had
short internships called JanTerms. The two that I chose in
my last two years of schoolwere , uh, one was at the
(01:48):
Shepherd Center here in Atlantathat works with persons with
spinal cord injury , and theother was a drug and alcohol
rehab center. And what I foundmyself being drawn to was the
action oriented, you know, the,the planning, putting the
pieces together versus the, youknow, one-on-one therapy type
(02:10):
sessions. Um , so I saw all thedifferent pieces of the puzzle
that people had to put togetherto coordinate and get to that
next chapter in their life. Um,and then after getting my
bachelor's , uh, what sealedthe deal was looking at Georgia
State's Master's program herein Atlanta that had a , a
(02:32):
really robust , uh,rehabilitation counseling with
Dr. Roger Weed at the helm. Um,so I got really peaked by that
and , and understood that itwas much more action oriented ,
um, and the type of counselingthat I wanted to be involved
in. So it was a great, greatstepping stone.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (02:52):
Charles, can you walk us through a bit
of your work history and howyou came to your role with the
PVA? Sure .
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Um , you know , when I left the military, so kind of
two things. One is went through, um, the Transition assistance
program. Um, this was 2005 ,um, and it basically was here's
how you wear a suit, here's howyou write a resume, here's how
(03:19):
you get your VA benefits, goodluck. Um, and so after, you
know, after all this time,making me into a sailor, they
didn't really know how to makeme into a civilian. Um, and so,
you know, like a lot ofveterans, you know, thought,
you know, Hey, I , I've gottaget a job right away. Um,
instead of taking the time todetermine what it was outside
(03:44):
of the military that I wantedto do. Um, so I went to work ,
uh, for a defense contractormaking good money, but didn't
particularly enjoy it. Right?
And so , uh, along the way, afriend of mine and I started a
restaurant. So, I mean, you gofrom military and cybersecurity
to an Italian deli in centralPennsylvania is a, is a very
(04:07):
big shift. You know, I wentback to school and got a a , a
master's degree, you know , soover the, God , we're almost
coming up on 20 years now. Um,you know, I've been unemployed,
employed, self-employed school,you name it. So I had done all
of these things in, in 20years, and I still joke with
(04:28):
folks that I still don't knowwhat I wanna do when I grow up.
And so, you know , had been acounselor , um, an SVA , uh,
small business administrationresource partner, teaching
veterans and spouses how tostart businesses. And funny
enough was, was in astorytelling class, and that
was how I connected withsomebody from PVA, had no idea
(04:51):
what PVA was. Um, and I thinklike a lot of veterans, they
hear paralyzed veterans ofAmerica. You go , uh, I'm not
paralyzed, so doesn't apply tome . Um , and so a couple years
down the road, she was like,Hey, we, we have this position
as our , uh, associate directorof, of the career program. I
think you would be really goodbecause of your experiences.
(05:13):
And I , you know, I thinkthat's one of the things that
veterans in particular, we lookout for other veterans. Um, we
may do the good natured ribbingof, you know, army versus Navy
or whatever, but we take careof our own. And so, you know,
interviewed for the job, sawwhat it was doing, thought
about other things I couldbring on. Um , absolutely love
(05:35):
my, my staff, my team ofcounselors. Um, and so been
been on board almost threeyears now with, with the career
program.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (05:43):
That's amazing. You know, I feel like
we don't talk enough about thecybersecurity to Italian deli
career pipeline
podcast before, so I'm glad weget to touch on it a little.
It's, it's funny how we hear alot of people, we've heard from
CRCs as well, that you oftenwith a career, you kind of have
to find your way. And it'sincredible that you've both
ended up with the PVA and doingsuch amazing work, and it's
(06:05):
been really wonderful to getto, to learn more about the,
the work you're doing. Andspecifically on the Veterans
Career Program. Um, can youtell us a bit about the program
and some of the services thatyou provide to your
stakeholders?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Sure. So, so the focus is, it is veterans with
disability, and specificallythose with spinal cord injury,
disease discord , um, a as theorganization's name implies, we
just found that like withinthat community, the family unit
is important. So providingcareer assistance for spouses,
(06:39):
for adult children, forcaregivers , um, who in many
cases are all three of those,you know, the caregiver is the
spouse who was a veteran , uh,sort of thing. And so we're ,
we're fairly unique in that we,we really try to say yes to
everybody who has a militaryaffiliation. So if you're
transitioning from the, fromthe military, if you've been
(07:02):
out for four months or 40 years, um, we don't look at , um,
your discharge or criminalbackground as far as
eligibility for assistance,because a lot of times those
folks who didn't necessarilyhave the best military career
are the ones who need the, theassistance most. Um, so, so we,
(07:25):
you know, we really are a , a aSay Yes. Um, we started, so the
program started in 2007, but Ikind of want to jump ahead to
just before the pandemic. Youknow, we had been going out to
career fairs, which takes a lotof time, a lot of money for
travel and everything. And weweren't necessarily meeting our
core constituency traveldifficulty. Um , and , and
(07:49):
heard from them that they felta little patronized when they
went to job fairs that it waslike, oh, yeah, you're a
veteran with a disability. Um,but they got sent to the same
application website, and theresume and application just
kind of got lost in a blackhole. So we started before the
pandemic, what we call VeteranSquare Live . It's, it's just a
(08:09):
Zoom session. Um, but we'reable to, you know, every week
do an hour introductory sessionon what is it , what is
tailoring your resume mean, andwhy is it important? Or , um,
you know , Gina does a numberof sessions on disability
benefits and implications withgoing back to work or starting
(08:30):
a business. We bring oneducational profess
professionals. We bring oncompanies that have strong
veteran and disabilityprograms. Um, and so that's,
that's kind of our , ourcountrywide reach or nationwide
reach , um, really to get folksto understand that we are more
(08:52):
than just , um, paralyzedVeterans of America. Uh, and
then to get them connected withone of our counselors. So
there's 10 of us , uh, aroundthe country , um, that are
either , uh, uh, CRCs oremployment , uh, specialists
and , and really trying tounderstand what the
(09:14):
individual's desires are, theirabilities, wishes, all of that
, um, and connecting them notonly with the right , uh, or
with a counselor, but with theright counselor , um, with ,
with the background andeverything. And so , um, those
are kind of the, the two bigthings. And then the third
thing I would say our programencompasses is the advocacy. So
(09:36):
talking to federal agencies,talking to employers , uh, you
name it , uh, on behalf ofVeteran Employment and Veterans
with disability employment.
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (09:46):
I would just build on that, that we
jokingly call ourselvesartisanal or boutique services,
feel a little bit more cookiecutter or conveyor belt like
services with, here's a resume,here's a class, kind of like
the transition services, here'sa mock interview video type
(10:10):
thing. But we really try todelve deep into who the person
is , um, holistically, whichis, you know, the heart of, of
voc rehab counseling, to lookat all aspects of their life
and , um, make sure they'reable to navigate and, and get
to where they wanna go, notnecessarily where we think they
should go. So just reallyindividualized services.
(10:32):
Charles touched on theNavigating Benefits programs.
Um, we are an employmentnetwork for Social Securities
Ticket to Work program, and wehave a lot of our clients that
are on SSCI and have to figureout how to protect their
benefits or appeal overpaymentthat can get quite
(10:53):
overwhelming. So we're proud tobe able to serve them in that
way.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (10:58):
I know as I was kind of getting into the
world of working with CRCC ,um, navigating those benefit
systems and just differentprograms federally or at the
state level was something thatI found really profound about
the work that that CRCs do,because those are, especially
if you've never, if you haven'tlived in that space for your
life, right, it's, it's veryoverwhelming to be dealing with
(11:21):
this new lived experience ontop of all these different
formalized bureaucratic systemsthat have very strict rules,
and you have to make sureyou're doing everything
correctly to get the benefitsand everything. So it's great
to have allies to be able toguide you through that process.
I feel like that's , um, one ofthe things that I hear a lot
when we, when we talk to folksabout what CRCs do that they
(11:42):
always wanna highlight, becauseobviously the vocational
history of the, of , of thecredential and of
rehabilitation counseling as aprofession at large, is I is
well known for people who knowwho rehab counselors are. But
yeah, navigating those, thosebenefit systems are, are is
something I find , um, reallyprofound about the work that
CRCs do with clients
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (12:02):
Starting in , in the field and learning
about voc rehab. I didn'tanticipate having to learn such
a technical government programthat wasn't on my radar, but
it's, it's a huge part of howwe try to protect our clients.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (12:17):
Yeah. Well, and you used a word that we
love to use a lot, which is,you know, holistic, right? So
working with a client andtrying to get them a , a
meaningful career that they'regoing to feel empowered by and
, and valued in , um, is, isonly part of that experience of
working with someone , um, likea CRC and , and or someone on
your team. So, especially forfolks who are coming out of a
(12:40):
master's program, they're like,I'm gonna go counsel. I'm gonna
go talk to people about, youknow, functional limitations
and , um, you know, assessdifferent career skills that
they have and, and what theirgoals are. And then, yeah , all
of a sudden you're having todive into , um, social security
benefits and all thesedifferent sorts of programs and
, uh, that functional knowledgethat CRCs brain like yourself ,
um, are invaluable to clients.
(13:01):
And something that wedefinitely want people to know
, uh, when they're, you know,maybe , um, experiencing a
disability for the first time,or they were born with one
that, you know, seeking out theservices of A CRC, this is
something that they can assistyou with, which is great. You
know, we've talked a little bitabout, you know, the fact that
there are CRCs on your teamwith the Veterans Career
program , uh, which isobviously, you know, our bread
(13:22):
and butter right? Is , uh,serving the CRCs that we
credential and, and help toprovide continuing education
too . Um, Charles, I kind ofwanna start with you for this
two part question. Um, whatknowledge and skills do you
identify in the CRCs on staffthat make them effective and
essential to the goals of yourprogram?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
You know , working very closely with Gina, you
know, looking at kind of astandard resume, if you will,
of , uh, experiences the CRCwould have. Um, so I want the,
the, the knowledge base, but Ithink the bigger thing that I
look for , um, it is , uh,creative thinking because
every, as Gina mentioned, wedon't take a cookie cookie
(14:04):
cutter approach. Um, andeverybody's going to be a
little different. And I, I wantto give my CRCs the, the leeway
to do that , um, but also havethem have the fearlessness ,
um, to, to do that, right? Um,a lot of times the, the
(14:25):
counselors are faced withproblems that have nothing to
do with careers, right? So itcould be homelessness, could be
food security, it could bemental or physical health
issues. Um, and while we don'ttry to reinvent the wheel , um,
having them be able to say, yep, so let's find you the
resource to take care of thisor that, or, or , or whatever
(14:48):
it is. Um, on the career sidespecifically, probably one of
my favorite one stories is ,um, having a client who was an
electrician in the military,was an electrician on the
civilian sector, suffered aspinal cord injury. And when he
had recovered enough that hewanted to talk about
employment, you know, thecounselor was like, oh , do you
(15:09):
, you know, do you wanna stayin the electrician field? Um,
and , and we see this a lotthat having an injury or a
traumatic experience like thischanges your worldview on
things and said, you know , um,I've always wanted to be a chef
at kind of like going fromcybersecurity to a Italian
(15:30):
deli, you know, going from anelectrician to being a chef.
Um, food seems to be a commontheme here, which I can totally
understand. Um , oh yeah. Butit, you know, and , and having
the counselor be able to say,okay, so let's find you a
culinary arts program. Let'sfind you the transportation to
get to that program. Let's findyou , uh, a restaurant that
(15:53):
maybe has an accessible kitchenthat they're looking to hire ,
um, type of things. And, andbeing able to , to go 180
degrees out from where theymaybe had started. Um, I think
that's probably the, thebiggest skill , um, that, that
I look for. Um, not a , a alittle bit of off balance , um,
(16:15):
where I love my team , um, butwe are , we are pretty kooky.
Um, and so being , being ableto relate to the team and, and
, and everything is, you know,is also a big , uh, part of it.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (16:28):
I love that. Yeah. If everybody was
super normal, I mean, what'sinteresting about that, right?
Everyone kind of has their ownunique perspective, and then
you start melding people'sdifferent personalities
together, and yeah , you getthis little mix of like a work
family who all kind of bringsomething a little different to
the table. And , and thatdefinitely helps a dynamic, I
think, when you're workingtogether. Exactly . Um, Gina, I
(16:50):
wanna ask you kind of in thesimilar vein as a CRC , uh,
yourself, working with othercertified professionals , um,
on your team across thecountry, right? Um, how
important is it that many ofyour peers hold that same CRC
credential as you, and whatdifference does that make in
your collective outcomes as ateam?
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (17:07):
Uh , it's incredibly important and,
and we've seen a lot ofpushback , um, across the field
in different environments wherethere's saying, you know , it's
not necessarily that importantand you can still do similar
positions, but for me , um,it's just night and day. When I
meet somebody that's beenthrough the same training, they
(17:30):
have an instinct that isundeniable. So I talk about
triage a lot with, with ourteam in terms of when you get a
case, you know, A CRC isautomatically their brain's
going in 20 differentdirections, like going through
a checklist of all the areasand then putting them in order
(17:50):
of , you know, like I say ,triage, which one's most
important to start with. Um,and we're thinking of who we
need to network with andcollaborate with. Um, so I , I
just don't see that at the samelevel with folks that haven't
been through the CRCcertification process and
training. Um, and we're reallyfortunate with our team,
(18:14):
because I tell everybody, I'veworked in a lot of different
environments, but this is thebest job I've ever had at PVA,
because it really is pure vocrehab and CRCs who have been
in, you know, workers' compenvironments or , uh, life care
planning or just all sorts ofenvironments, you're , you tend
(18:35):
to have more than one agenda or, or people or entities that
you're serving. And at PVA, our, our directive is do what's
best for this person no matterwhat. Um, and so it's such a
gift as A-A-C-R-C to , to begiven that environment and to
really do what we were trainedfor and what brought us to the
(18:58):
field in the first place.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (18:59):
Yeah, that's wonderful to hear. I
think, you know, that kind ofclient driven focus in this
work is, is where theprofession started, and that's
where we see that people whonot only have the most success
in 2024, but who are mostfulfilled in the work they're
doing. 'cause like you said,people who go on to be A CRC
feel very passionate about thework they do and , and , and
(19:20):
providing services forindividuals with disabilities.
And when you're in anenvironment where that's not
the main goal, I think itshows, it shows in folks we
speak to or hear from , um, andtheir job satisfaction as a
counselor. You know, if that'snot the focus and there are
other things in the way, it canbe very difficult to feel like
you are fulfilling the purposethat you sought out , uh,
(19:40):
professionally and you know,personally, right? This is very
meaningful work to people onevery level, right? So it ,
it's always great to, to, youknow, the first conversation I
had with both of you, I waslike, oh, it's so great to see
people who get it right. And ,and then the work you're doing
is so impactful and it speaksfor itself and in the client
stories that you share. And it, it's just wonderful to see ,
(20:04):
um, people like Gina who are inthis profession for a reason,
who are so great at what youdo, and you're in the space to
be able to do that. And it'sthis perfect , uh, formula for
really meaningful life-changingwork. So thank you. Um, and
thank you both for, you know,making that a declared
initiative and kind ofphilosophy for, for , for the
program that you're running.
(20:24):
One of the things that I read,you know, when we first spoke
was that you, you view as anorganization, the Veteran's
Career Program as a partnershipfor life. And I, I found that
to be very profound becausesome of the, the pushback we
hear from people who feel like,again, they may be not in a
great environment , uh, for,for voc rehab or for , uh,
(20:46):
rehabilitation counseling , um,they, they feel like, you know,
my job is to get a client a job, and then hopefully they stay
in that job for X amount oftime, and then that's it. So
I'm curious, you know, what isthe motivation behind the
ideology that the clientcounselor relationship doesn't
end, you know, simply becausesomeone has landed a job?
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Yeah, I, I, I think, you know, the, the big
motivation is actually beforewe even have a relationship, a
a lot of the folks that wetalked to, they were given very
bad advice , um, that it waslike, Hey, you have a hundred
percent disability through theva, take your benefit. Um,
literally sit back , uh, and,and don't worry about working
(21:29):
or starting a business becauseyou could lose those benefits.
Some of those folks have beendoing that for 20, 30 years,
and as I think all of us got afeel for it during covid , that
that isolation and socialseparation is, is not healthy.
Um, and so, you know,physically and mentally , um,
(21:51):
they , they found , uh,themselves suffering and, and
so now they, they see thatcomment or that philosophy, or
they see what we're doing, andit's like, Hey, even though
I've been out of the workforcefor 30 years, this organization
is willing to help me get back.
Uh, and, and they understandthat, and they understand not
(22:14):
just the , uh, again, not justthe financial piece of it, but
the, the physical emotionalpiece of it. Um, and I think it
also speaks to understandingthe, the family unit, and
again, especially with personswith disability and how
important that is, that it, youknow, while the individual
might not be able to work asmuch, maybe their caregiver who
(22:37):
is an adult , uh, family memberneeds assistance, and it's
like, you know, yes,absolutely. We'll be able to,
to help. And then there is that, um, you know, after the, and
I hate using the term placementbecause that's more of a
recruiting thing, but it, youknow, that's what it is. You
know, so we place somebody ,um, but they may find that ,
(22:59):
um, they need accommodationsthat they hadn't thought of,
and they need somebody to talkto about, Hey, how do I
approach my boss , uh, aboutthis accommodation that, that I
need? You know, am I gonna getfired if I didn't reveal
something, you know, type ofthing. And, and, you know,
being able to say, no ,absolutely. You know, let's,
let's work with you on that.
(23:20):
Um, somebody gets into a , ajob and they're like, this was
not what I thought it was gonnabe, you know, and it's like,
okay, yeah. So let's, let'sfind you something that is. And
so I , I I, I , I think thebiggest thing, and, and Gina
and I have talked about thisbefore too, about this program
is , is , um, providing hope.
(23:42):
And, and I think having that asa, as a, you know, really
something we believe in being apartner for life, I think it,
it helps drop barriers. I thinkit helps , um, with providing
hope. 'cause a lot of timeswith especially veterans who
have recently experienced atraumatic , uh, uh, incident ,
(24:04):
um, they're, they're morefocused on recovery. Although,
you know, they are thinkingabout what's, what my life is
gonna be like. But, you know,it's, it's the spouse and the
parents who have thosequestions as well. And being
able to have thoseconversations and say, yeah, at
some point , uh, life's gonnabe different. Um, but it
doesn't mean it's over, right?
(24:26):
And , and when you are ready,we'll be ready, you know, type
of thing . So that, that's mytake on it.
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (24:32):
Yeah, I agree with all of that. Um,
just from a , a slightlydifferent angle with, you know,
you've got your folks that havebeen been in the military
community leave no one behind.
And as Charles mentioned , um,looking out for each other is
just a huge component of thatmilitary community. So , um,
(24:54):
saying , you're gonna be thereand you're gonna show up no
matter what's going on is , isa really common theme. So we
take that very seriously interms of , um, saying what we
mean, meaning what we say, youknow, just because , uh, you
had something change in yourlife, perhaps , uh, your
disability was aggravated andyou can no longer do that job.
(25:18):
You know, we're still gonna bethere. And , and I recognize
that it is a luxury. I knowI've worked in different
environments where whether itbe the state or , um, the third
party administrator withinsurance, the insurance world,
you, you know, you don't have alot of choices. It's, it's got
a very specific goal. Get thejob, get 'em , you know, off
(25:43):
the caseload, so to speak. So I, I do recognize that being at
a private nonprofit with thismission is , is a wonderful ,
um, gift to me and to all thepeople that we serve . Um, and
yeah, I, I just don't think vocrehab or rehabilitation
counseling is meant to be , um,time limited and, and
(26:08):
contained. I mean, we are, thatholistic word comes up again,
we're looking at the wholeperson, and they may wanna get
another degree, they may needto save a job because as
Charles mentioned, moreaccommodations are needed. Um,
they may want to look at acompletely different field or ,
(26:30):
um, transition off of their,you know, benefits onto a new
position or get back ontobenefits after they, you know,
have been working for a whilebecause that disability , um,
perhaps to generate it , it gotworse. Um, so yeah, just
looking at the whole person andhow they may evolve and , and
(26:52):
their needs would change, youknow, to me is, is the essence
of rehabilitation counseling,not, not something that's meant
to be boxed in and contained.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (27:03):
Something that I run into a lot when I
speak to folks who work in thefield is, you know, we have
misconceptions about, aboutindividuals with disabilities,
and sometimes we try to putthem in a different bucket than
the rest of us, right? So thisidea, and you mentioned Gina
and Charles, you mentioned itas well, the idea that you
would just think, oh, I'm, Iwant to try this for a career,
(27:23):
and then you would do it. Andthat's 100% of the time gonna
be exactly what you enjoy doingand what you're passionate
about. And, you know, caseclose , that's not always the
case, right? I think a lot ofus have an idea of something
they want , we want to do. Wetry it out and we're like, Ooh
, that's not quite it. Butthere are elements that I want
to continue to explore. And Ithink that partnership for life
(27:43):
is so crucial becauseespecially navigating a new
disability, you are trying tofigure out a lot all at once.
And there are going to bemoments where you head in one
direction and you realize it'stime to redirect. And having a
partner, you know, in your teamto be able to navigate those
things and come back and say,Hey, this wasn't quite what I
thought it was gonna be. Um,that's, that's so impactful for
(28:05):
anybody, right? To have thatsupport system that can say,
okay, well, what's working foryou and what's not, and how do
we mitigate these different ,um, expectations that have
maybe kind of not gone the waythat you thought they were
going to go. So , um, that ,that , that's really great to
hear. Yeah . That that's, youknow, part of what you're all
about. We talked a little bitabout , um, the, the , the
(28:26):
veterans Career live , uh,sessions that you're running.
And Charles, you had sharedwith me via email , um, a
really interesting , uh,perspective that, you know, a
lot of people with disabilitiesare, have opted out of
traditional employment, butthey do still consider
self-employment an opportunity.
And I know from our firstdiscussion, that was something
that you've kind of leanedinto, particularly post covid
(28:48):
as you've not been doing the ,um, the in-person job fairs as
much and opting for these,these live sessions ha have
these , uh, veterans careerlive webinars and, you know,
kind of conversations been a ,a place to explore those
self-employment skills andopportunities. And, and how
have , um, your stakeholdersresponded to those
opportunities and , um,exploring that as an option
(29:09):
for, for what they could doprofessionally?
Speaker 3 (29:12):
We've seen incredible response. I, I would
say, so we do probably about 90sessions a year , um, with
about 10,000 people who signup. Um, we, we always try to
encourage them to, toparticipate live so they can
ask questions, but that's partof the reason of doing it as
Zoom and and recording it, is ,um, you know, you may not be
(29:36):
able to get away from a meetingor whatever. So we always make
the , um, the sessionrecordings a avail available to
everybody. Um, what's beengreat is the, the diversity of
what we're able to discuss onthese. Um, you know, so last
year there was a lot of focuson student loan forgiveness. So
(30:00):
we were able to bring on folksto, to talk about the different
programs when they were gonnaexpire, how to apply, things
like that. Um, you know, and,and what constitutes something
that is career focused . Um, wetake a very broad view of that.
So, I mean, we have folks whocome on and talk about , um,
(30:21):
you know, armed services, artspartnerships, so taking classes
on storytelling or comedy orimprov and , and you may say,
well , how does that improvethe career? So a lot of it has
to do with building confidencein public speaking , uh, and,
and interviews as well, as wellas being a little funny, you
know, that, that's a good thingtoo. Um,
(30:41):
you know, they, the, theprogram as a whole, I say, has,
has been very successful. Wecontinue to, to do it. Um, but
as you mentioned, and, and youknow, the report that came out
last year said like 94% ofpeople with disabilities that
is beyond the unemployed phase,that is folks who have just
left the workforce. They, theyaren't trying anymore and for a
(31:05):
number of reasons, but theystill are looking at
self-employment. And that thatcould be just them turning
their hobby into something thatgenerates some income, or it
could be something wherethey're starting a business and
they're hiring employees or, orwhatever. Um, being able to do
that virtually , uh, ha has asignificant positive impact,
(31:28):
especially on people withdisabilities. Um, the whole
point of our program,especially the pilot program,
was to get feedback like, youknow, were the classes too
long? You know , um, was thematerial presented in in the
appropriate manner ? Do , didwe have resources specifically
for people with disabilities?
Things like that. Um, and it's,it's so nice to be able to have
(31:52):
a forum where we can just say,Hey, you know, we've just
noticed that , uh, financialliteracy is a topic that a lot
of folks do not know about, butthey're interested in. Let's do
a session on it. Um, so yeah,it's , the program overall has
been very successful . Um, andespecially for the, on the
(32:12):
self-employment side has beenincredibly useful.
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (32:15):
I've got folks that have just said over
and over, I never would'vethought of that, or I never
would've heard of that, youknow, unusual training program
or , um, been able to speak tothat expert and ask them a
direct question. So I thinkpeople really appreciate that.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (32:33):
Yeah, absolutely. 90 sessions in a
year is no small feat,especially to have them be, be
that engaging and dynamic andget that great response. So ,
um, as someone on the contentplanning side, I'm in awe and
maybe going to email you forsome tips , uh, after, after we
get off this conversation, but, uh, we have a lot of CRCs who
(32:53):
have clients who are, who areveterans with, with a
disability , um, some dependingon their work setting, may not
have encountered a lot of ofveterans , um, who have, you
know, served in the militaryand are now , um, navigating a
disability. What takeaways doyou think when it comes to
working specifically with ,with veterans with disabilities
might help other CRCs when itcomes to, you know, different
(33:17):
things that you're encounteringas your team is, is, is working
with all these sorts ofdifferent people across the
country, and are, are therespecial considerations or
approaches that, that tend tohelp , um, best serve , um, a
veteran who's seeking out theseservices?
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (33:33):
I really feel that the culture shift ,
uh, well, two things. Theculture shift from, you know,
military to civilian istremendous. It's like if you
grew up in Kansas and then youwere dropped off in Mars and
said, Hey, get to know thesefolks, good luck. Um, the
(33:53):
veterans I speak with are like,it's just such a different
environment in terms of howpeople communicate , um, the
expectations of performance ,um, you know, things that are
valued. So it , it's a real bigshift in communities when they
come to civilian sectorpositions . They , a lot of
(34:14):
what I hear is they don't feelunderstood in terms of their
value and what they've done ,um, in terms of leadership and
responsibilities , um, in themilitary. Um, the other thing
is the fact that it's antypically acquired disabilities
, so not something that theywere born with , um, and have,
(34:38):
you know, grown up with, likesome of us may work with people
with developmental disabilitiesor , and other conditions. Um,
so that has not only a physicalimpact on their abilities, but
a huge emotional , um, traumato have that, you know,
acquired disability from , um,an event such as, you know, an
(35:02):
IED or even if they weren't incombat, they may have
experienced some other type oftrauma or had an accident and
training things like that. Soit would be a new and acquired
, um, condition. So definitelythe culture shift,
understanding their, theirvalue and their experience, and
then the impact of that suddenacquired disability.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Yeah, kinda , uh, along the same lines of that ,
especially, you know, we, wetalked about the, the creative
thinking and, and the processof doing all that , um, might
not be something veterans weretaught, right? Uh, it it's very
much, here's the process,here's the procedure, boom,
boom, boom, let you know, let'sdo it. Um, and so helping ease
(35:47):
them into more creativethinking about their employment
opportunities and, and theircareers , um, a a certain think
is , is something to , to beaware of. I, I think as well,
and , and only because we workso much wi with the veteran
community, is not necessarilyreinventing the wheel, but
being aware of the otherresources that are available,
(36:10):
right? So , um, a veteran whohas faced like long-term
unemployment may have otherthings going on. There may be
mental health , um,T-B-I-P-T-S-D, things going on
with that. Um, and you know,obviously if you're not a
mental health counselor , um,you know, want to get them to
(36:31):
the right program, andsometimes, you know, we're very
proud, we don't want to admitthat we have these, these
issues. There may be substanceabuse, there may be
homelessness, all , all ofthese other things. And so I
think being aware of the otherresources that are available ,
um, not just through the va butjust through the community
that, that you work within, I ,I think that is incredibly
(36:54):
important for the CRCs to besuccessful in their, in their
work. If I could add one more,one more Yeah . Please on , on
this particular topic is , um,for the CRCs is themselves,
make sure that they're takingtime for self-care. Um, you
know, ev even though I , Idon't wanna say only, but you
(37:17):
know, you're, you're working onthe career side of things, you
do get a lot of the personal ,uh, that comes into the
counseling sessions andeverything, and , and we absorb
that and that impacts us. And,and being able to say, you
know, Hey, so I just had a verydifficult counseling session.
(37:38):
Um, I need to take some time tomyself , um, so that my mental
and physical health is, istaken care of. I, I think
that's really , uh, I, I thinkthat's important to be aware of
and making sure that that's theenvironment that, that the
counselors are working in too .
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (37:55):
Yeah. That , that's great to add. And, you
know, it's not like , um, fromnine to five, let's say, if you
have a couple of reallydifficult sessions that at five
o'clock you can always say, allright , no more
responsibilities, no more beingan adult for the day, right?
You have a whole nother worldin life to go take care of as a
working person. And , uh, yeah,we try to encourage our CRCs
(38:15):
all the time to not only takecare of themselves, but also
speak to one another about whatyou're experiencing. Maybe not
necessarily like, you know, the, the , the stories with
clients in , in detail, but,you know, you're not the only
one who's, who's feelingoverwhelmed by the, the amount
that you're taking on in, inthis role. And while it's great
(38:35):
that you're equipped to do it,and that you are knowledgeable
and skilled, it still can be avery heavy experience and a
heavy weight to weight to hold, um, particularly if you feel
like you're kind of burying italone. So , um, yeah, we
definitely encourage folks to,to take time to, you know, not
only practice self-care, butalso self-compassion, that just
because this is the professionthat you've been called to go
(38:58):
do doesn't mean you're notallowed to feel a little burnt
out and a little , um, likeyou're in need of a break and a
breather. Um, and , and thatmight not be something that
just an hour of watching yourfavorite TV show, and then it
all goes away, right? Like, it,it , these things can stick
with you and it's important to, um, involve people in those
kind of feelings that you'rehaving and, and not face that
(39:18):
stuff alone. Folks who listento the podcast will know that
this is how we tend to endthese conversations. 'cause I'm
always really fascinated by thefolks who we speak with and how
a lot of this work ends upcooking with people because
they feel like they've been,you know, called to serve
individuals with disabilities,whether they knew that that was
the path that they were headingin or not. So I'm curious for
(39:40):
both of you , um, in the workthat you do with Paralyzed
Veterans of America, whatbrings you joy in, in the role
that you're in and the workthat you do on a day-to-day
basis?
Genia Hachenberg, PVA (39:51):
Oh gosh.
Big question. Well, I can saythroughout my whole career,
everybody, including mychildren, my family, 'cause I
did not grow up around personswith disabilities in any
significant way, which I hear alot of people in this business
have. Um, I was really drawn toall these different definitions
of success and the verydeliberate and, and way that,
(40:18):
you know, people can get there.
And the more I got exposed topersons with disabilities,
everybody kept saying , oh,isn't it depressing you're
working with somebody who'squadriplegic or a
schizophrenia? And it's so sad.
And I realized that mytemperament and my outlook on
life was completely theopposite in that I found it so
(40:39):
exciting to see what we can do,what we can succeed in, and
what we can accomplish. Um,whether that's, you know, being
able to feed yourself orbecoming an engineer for a
Fortune 500 company, it lookingahead and, and not having
limitations and, and definingthat success for each person ,
(41:02):
um, I just found veryinvigorating and exciting , um,
and meaningful. So the glasshalf full, I guess
keeps, keeps me going, keeps meoptimistic to see the changes
that can be made.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
I would say from my perspective, a lot of it comes
from my background. Um, having,having been a veteran or being
a veteran, actually having beenactive duty and doing that
transition , um, and having thegood fortune to have had a
number of experiences, eventhough I didn't think about it
(41:39):
at the time, that that's what Iwas doing. But , you know,
working for a big business,working for a small business,
starting my own business , um,the fear of being unemployed or
having been unemployed , um,you know, going back to school
, um, do doing a , a , a numberof other things and, and then
just being able to , um, takeclasses on comedy and
(42:02):
storytelling. You know, I'venot anything I ever would've
thought about , um, you know,been on stages with, with, you
know, tens of thousands ofpeople in , in the , uh,
audience or thousands of peoplein the audiences, you know? Um,
and being able to share thoseexperiences and say, Hey, this
is what's available. This iswhat is out there. And , and as
(42:24):
Gina mentioned, you know, kindof the military mantra of not
leaving people behind. And sobeing able to do that work
where you're , where you'resaying, Hey, I'm, I'm here, you
know, if you need me, I'm here.
Uh, and maybe even when youdon't need me, I'm gonna be
there, type, type of thing to ,to me that's my, my motivation
and I absolutely love. And, and, um, you know, every month we
(42:48):
do a success story and , andbeing able to see those success
stories. 'cause I think theyare so much more important than
just the sheer numbers. Youknow, the numbers are there and
I , I , it's never been one ofthose things where I've had to
worry about quotas or anythinglike that. 'cause you know, I
understand having been a smallbusiness counselor, you could
(43:09):
meet somebody today who you canplace in two weeks, or it could
be you meet somebody today andit takes two years, right? And
so being , uh, having thatflexibility to, to do that is,
is important. But I've neverhad to worry about the numbers.
The numbers always work outanyway. But when I address, you
know, companies or conventionsor up on Capitol Hill, the
(43:33):
things that resonate the mostare those individual stories
that say, you know, here'ssomebody who had , you know, is
a veteran with or without adisability. Um, but typically
with a disability who got intothis program who now is
employed and bought their , uh,first house, you know, and ,
(43:54):
and in the course of like sixmonths, you know , type of
thing. And so, tho that's thething that motivates me. Um,
'cause I think that's the thingthat, again, provides the hope
to, to other folks to say,yeah, I, you know, I , I should
reach out, I should getassistance, and , and I can do
this.
Taylor Bauer, CRCC (44:16):
Thanks again to Charles McCaffrey and
Gina Hackenberg for their timeand insight during this episode
of Inside RehabilitationCounseling. You can find a link
to the Veteran's Career Programwebsite in today's show notes
you heard from Charles as wellabout the importance of client
stories. So you'll also findthe link in the show notes to
our open call for stories fromboth CRCs and clients served by
(44:39):
CRCs to aid in our efforts toraise awareness of the
profession and advocate onbehalf of CRCs to employers,
lawmakers, and the generalpublic. If you have any
takeaways or insights on topicscovered in this episode, email
us at contactus@crccertification.com. Be
sure to subscribe to this showon Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or
(45:01):
wherever you're listening to ustoday. You can find us on
Facebook and LinkedIn at CRCCert , and our website is crc
certification.com. Until nexttime, I'm Director of
Communications and Marketing,Taylor Bauer. And for CRCC,
thank you for listening toInside Rehabilitation
Counseling.
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